DOD17: Should We Make Our Kids Apologize?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that doesn't know how to say it sorry. I'm Tom Curry And I'm joined as always by my friends Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello.

0:00:34 Eli: Hello.

0:00:40 Thomas: That doesn't sound right. What is that about?

0:00:45 Eli: Hey, sometimes the dad intros are just about Tom's dad. The podcast that throws away books when it's done with them.

0:00:49 Tom: Oh Okay. All right. Yeah, I are we are we taking bets on the number of times Thomas's dad has said I'm sorry because It's literally zero.

0:01:01 Eli: That's fair.

0:01:03 Tom: It's LITERALLY zero.

0:01:02 Thomas: Okay, ah No, that's not true. It's it's true. He will have apologized about minor things to day. I dropped something. I say, you know, minor that but yeah Yeah. Yeah. Oops. I I, left you in the cave for two hours. Yeah, yeah,

0:01:18 Eli: Left you at school.

0:01:13 Tom: I dropped something on you. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't bother to pick you up while you were at school.

0:01:19 Eli: Rule for

0:01:20 Thomas: Yeah. That's a nice call forward. In major terms. No like there's no there's.

0:01:24 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't consider an apology, Thomas. Like I tripped and bumped into you. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. Like I would not consider that an apology. That's like a verbal tick.

0:01:34 Thomas: Okay, so that's not an apology. Apology.

0:01:36 Tom: Yeah. That's a, but

0:01:36 Eli: Uh

0:01:36 Thomas: Well, I don't know if it's a verbal tick. It is an apology of sorts. Like, yeah, no, I get that it's different class of thing, but I do think it's important. I mean, if you're such an asshole that you do something minor and won't apologize for it, then it blows up into like a long -term resentment. So it is good that if people can at least do that, you

0:01:39 Tom: You know what I mean? It's not, it's like a pardon me, you know? Yeah.

0:01:51 Tom: Right. Yeah, absolutely. You know, don't send me a fucking message about how Tom thinks you should bump into people and not say anything. I

0:02:02 Eli: Tom, I've read the feedback from our shows. You just think we should bump it to men for women. You put them in bubbles and you float them gently into space where you throw them flowers. Yeah.

0:02:05 Tom: Right.

0:02:15 Tom: I've, I've gotten to thinking about apologies, um, over the last few days, and I actually, I, I wrote a little bit about it. So I thought I'd start us off by reading my thoughts on apologies that I wrote for my boys just the other day. So we'll use this as kind of a jumping off point. This is a heavily edited version of the original blog post, but it goes like this.

Want to start by saying that in general, I think the apology is an absolutely essential component of how we interact with others. An apology intrinsically recognizes the value and worth of the feelings of the person you are apologizing to, and without an apology for an error, those feelings are likely to remain unvalidated. If, after hashing out a conflict, you agree you were wrong without also offering an apology, you are not acknowledging that your error had consequences and that you understand and respect those consequences.

It's not enough to admit you were right, but it's also enough to if you cannot own the impact that your mistake has had. At its heart, this is what an apology begins to do. Be stingy or prideful about this. Avoiding an apology when you feel that you were genuinely wrong hurts everyone involved. In fact, there is nothing at all shameful about being the kind of man that owns his mistakes and acknowledges them.

Conversely, a reluctance to apologize shows an immaturity of character, hubris, and a churlish nature that will not serve you or those you love. Learn to recognize when you have negatively impacted others and be willing to extend yourself honestly and vulnerably with an apology. Difficult may be navigating this issue when you don't feel you've actually done anything wrong or when you feel your error is trivial. You don't want to take ownership of an issue unfairly or compromise your values with an apology you don't mean.

When you're confronted with an issue that you feel strongly about, that you have considered, and if you are morally comfortable with your core position, don't apologize just because there is a conflict. The value of an apology is lost when it is offered against your will. A good apology should be offered in good faith. Don't insincerely or sarcastically apologize, or apologize with a dismissive or passive-aggressive tone. Not only does this not count, but it makes you less emotionally credible.

An apology doesn't need to involve an overwrought self-flagellation or public spectacle, nor should it be done for for show. An apology, well-meant, should be simple, sincere, and to the point. It should explicitly recognize your part in the mistake, involve a demonstration that you understand the impact you've caused, and very importantly, be accompanied by a heartfelt and actionable pledge to work to do better. Too often, apologies lack supporting action, and in this way they move from the sincere to the disingenuous or manipulative.

An that does not have action tied to it is a way to dismiss someone's feelings to put an end to a conflict. Used this way, it is an attempt to thwart responsibility rather than accept responsibility. Apologies can also be made in ways that are strategic and even manipulative. One the other should be avoided. A strategic apology is an apology offered in part because that apology serves a pragmatic goal.

Sometimes you might not agree with the need to apologize, but it's perfectly fine to apologize and sincerely that you have hurt someone. While you might now feel bad about the core issue, very likely you will recognize that you've caused an impact you didn't intend. A fine thing, then, to offer a strategic apology. An apology that keeps the peace, validates the impact of an action, and that does not violate your principles. Be leery of and watchful for manipulative apologies. Because an apology can be powerful, some offer apologies as a form of conflict dissolution rather than resolution. While

0:06:11 Tom: To resolve a conflict, but to dissolve one. Manipulative apologies are frequently offered too quickly, too freely, without seeming consideration, and very often absorb all the culpability in an instant. They may seem outwardly sincere, but fly in the face of the values of the person apologizing, causing you to doubt the sincerity. A manipulative apology is generally intended to stop a conversation by reducing the conflict to its final act, thus circumventing the hard work of conflict resolution and reconciliation.

A manipulative apology is often easy to spot because they will be offered swiftly and unconditionally even in complex situations. The manipulation comes from the suddenness and completeness of blame acceptance. This works because it forces the aggrieved party to accept the apology before the conflict really resolves, and in this way, it is simply a way to deflect from the situation. Apologies are powerful things. They lead us to reconcile with others, they strengthen our credibility, and they are an opportunity for us to be better.

An apology is not some terrible recognition of a moral failing or character flaw, and you shouldn't think of an apology as some kind of nuclear option only offered as a last resort. Similarly, don't become an insincere serial apologist. Don't apologize for who you are or for what you honestly believe. Hold as a value that acknowledging our imperfections is the only path forward and that we owe it to ourselves and to others to recognize and validate the way we impact those around us.

And this process becomes very simple. That was my blog post I wrote most recently to the boys on the subject of apology. And I just wanted to get your guys' thoughts on it.

0:07:58 Eli: I was actually super excited to do an episode about this because I mean obviously I love a ton of your blogs, but this is one of the first of your vlogs that I like feel almost, almost entirely the opposite of on every single point. And like, not in a terrible, not like, oh, Tom, you're a bad, but like, I feel the opposite about apologies in almost every way.

0:08:12 Tom: Wow. No, no, no. It's fine. Yeah. Every way.

0:08:22 Eli: And so what was really interesting to me in reading that is one of two things is true. Either a lot of the stuff in that blog hits too close to home because it's too true of me, or I just have an entirely different outlook on apologies so I was very excited to talk about it and I'll start with like the the obvious like most simplest one. I am the biggest manipulative apologizer in the universe. I apologize so I apologize so quickly so inauthentically uh a second in a sec some guy in the grocery store or bump his cart into mine and I'll like step forward ready to do a soliloquy, I'll be like, sir, here you were living your best life. And I, a greedy fat man filled with boils and beetles came and destroyed your life. Take it from my heart when I say I have never regretted anything more than being in the way of your cart. Like there's, there's no thing I'm more willing to do than play that game. No,

0:08:39 Tom: Well,

0:08:51 Thomas: I'm

0:09:25 Tom: But Okay, so I think, I think there's a distinction though, between, would you do that with Anna though? Yeah.

0:09:30 Eli: No. Well, so here's my theory on it. Right.

0:09:31 Tom: Right. Because you care about Anna Right.

0:09:33 Eli: Yeah. Here's my theory. I think with people who care about you, apologies are almost never necessary because to me, and this is where I think the indication that your blog just cuts to the core of who I am is probably true rather than I'm right and you're wrong about apologies. To me, apologies are about doing the worst thing you can do to a person, which is shaming them.

Right, an apology, or real apology, not the oops, I bumped into you apology, or the, you know, you know, the everyday, oh, sorry about that, oh, I'm so sorry I'm late, like, ah, gosh, traffic, right.

I'm talking about the real, someone has created a moment and you have to scuttle them to the side of whatever interaction has been happening, or god forbid you've had to create a new interaction and just like, I want you to know that I feel deep shame for the way I have been like. To me, there is nothing worse you can do to a person than shame them.

Um, the example I think of all the time is like when we du meet and greet a lot of the, of time um, will write me afterwards because the humor on our shows picks on me a lot, and they will have done a joke like that when we meet, and then they'll think about it, and they'll be like, oh, maybe he didn't like that, or maybe it was mean, and they're like, oh, I don't know, write me an email being like, hey, I'm so sorry that interaction went this way, and I never care.

I literally, I think I've had like two bad interactions with listeners ever, and it's never been that, and I immediately rushed to be like, please do not feel bad about this, because, because I know how terrible shame feels.

And so for me, whenever someone has created the situation where I'm apologizing, and they don't say like, hey, you don't have to apologize, because I care about you as a person, and this is like a weird fucking Lovecraftian thing to do to another human being, I just switch into the other mode, which I like to call like people skills, where I am just

0:09:33 Tom: Yeah.

0:11:28 Eli: Just like, oh, yeah, What do the humans want right here? Oh, okay. The humans want me to say what I did back to them. They want to reflect the behavior, how it made them feel. Okay, great. I got my lines and I just go, I go into it. But I, I mean, genuinely, I can count on one hand the number of times, maybe this makes me a psycho and super unlikable. I can counter one hand the number of time I have genuinely apologized instead of just being like, oh, we're doing this social interaction, okay, I, okay, well, I know my part in this, uh,

0:11:28 Tom: That's A way softer Way of putting it, right?

0:12:04 Thomas: Curious, Eli, do you have any friends, relatives, whatever, family, people that you actually, you you know, like do have to interact with or care about, not have to, but like actually interact with regularly and care about who are people who refuse to apologize for anything?

0:12:20 Eli: Yeah, so here's the thing, uh, apologizing is a big thing in my family in the inverse. Um, like, we very strongly, and and I have a great story about this, very strongly believe in like not apologizing if you're not sorry, right? So I, I Know a lot of people Had the childhood experience of like, um, you pushed over Suzy in the sandbox and I say you're sorry, right, we just don't do that. There's consequences, right? That was bad, there are consequences, but we don't do the weird facsimile of sorry. So yeah, my family is very, very loathe to apologize. No,

0:12:34 Thomas: Sure. So

0:12:52 Tom: Whoa, wow, I

0:12:53 Thomas: If your kid pushes someone down, you wouldn't say, hey, you should apologize to them for that.

0:12:59 Eli: I, if unless my kid is actually sorry and chooses to apologize, I think that's a weird, so

0:13:05 Thomas: That is a weird, no, that's An incredibly Weird Way to judge it because your kid, like anybody's kid, like my kids at certain ages are just a selfish monster of figuring things out, you know, they're not part how of them eventually feeling sorry for doing bad things to people, I think is starts with this early on example, I think, I, I don't know, that just seems very weird to me.

0:13:07 Tom: Feel like that's fucked up, yeah,

0:13:28 Thomas: Well

0:13:28 Eli: Let Me say this, I think the way, way to teach empathy is to demonstrate it by being sorry when you're sorry to them, right? So if I bump my son over, right, I will take a moment to be like, hey buddy, I'm sorry I bumped into you, right, because that's real, right, that's a thing. But I think the sort of forced upon you, gotta say it like you mean it, right, you know that whole thing, I, I don't think that teaches empathy. I think it teaches children that apologies are things to be forced out of other people. Get

0:13:59 Thomas: Me add one more thing there, because with kids and with toddler, you know, small children, it, to me, it's actually, now they think about thinking through it, it's less about me making sure that Phoebe feels sorry, that I don't really care about, I mean, I want her to, but I don't care about like trying to thought crime her and knowing exactly what she's thinking, like I don't think you can try to operate on that level, that's just too hard for me. It's about, if you've ever had a toddler, and a toddler who interacts with other kids, kids, they're just incredibly negligent. They're just bumbling, you fighting people, taking toys, bouncing around. They do a lot of stuff. They don't have that attention. And part of the, like, hey, you just knocked over another kid.

0:14:43 Thomas: Hey, I think you should, you know, say you're sorry for knocking this other kid over. Part of it is drawing attention to the fact that they even did it, and just kind of trying to teach them to notice how much they're affecting other people. Yeah.

0:14:43 Tom: Yeah man, like, I gotta jump in on that, like that's, that's it not from, like let's say, like it's a great example actually because it's very pure example, like with a little kid, like little kids will just, and I'm not even talking about bumping someone, little kids just push somebody over, or just like take something from another kid, right, So, don't think about it from the person who has to to apologize, but like, like think about it from the standpoint of the person who is aggrieved and doesn't have any validation then that they have been aggrieve, that their feelings matter, that they are a person worth considering. Like,

0:15:09 Eli: Yeah,

0:15:09 Thomas: Yeah, yep, That's So, so hard, Tom, I think that's a great point. No,

0:15:36 Eli: So I, I agree with you, I think apologies are the wrong way to do that, um, because they train people that the way to validate emotions is to take another person and put them through a bizarre, like Dune moon-esque ritual of magic words, right?

0:15:52 Thomas: It's Really not What What Is the Yeah, I Agree, Well,

0:15:53 Tom: Man, You're Like you're putting So Much weirdness Into An apology that isn't There Like an apology is not this like, like, no,

0:15:57 Eli: Oh, I, I think they're super fucking weird. I think there's, they're súper weird. They are, they are an exclamation of emotions that might not be there. It's a first, I mean, imagine, imagine a little kid crying because his grandpa died, and you bring your kid over and you go, tell him you're sad his grandpa lied. Tell him now, say, hey, his grandpa but dying matters. Tell him you're sad. Tell them you too are grieving. Like it's just this weird forced emotion dance that we make kids do. I think it's absolutely bananas. Okay.

0:16:09 Thomas: I

0:16:10 Tom: But can't, I,

0:16:30 Thomas: Always, thought Heath with this was the psychopath among you guys, but I think yeah, I can go with you a little bit on the family thing, like, when you really care about someone, there's a relationship you can have, have, but it only works if you genuinely know the other person cares and is already sorry, and that I agree with, like, there is a certain amount of like, okay, if I really care about this person, you, I still think if you've developed the kind of relationship and interactions where you apologize, then you just do it, and there's not as much weird shit as you're putting on it, but I could, I could go with you on that if it's like, if your dynamic is, look, I know that I did a bad thing, and they know that I feel bad for it, so fuck it, like, that's our relationship, why, we don't, that's fine, when it comes to other people, like, you take your kid to a playground or some here, there's a lot of considerations, it's not just that you want your kid to feel bad they did something bad, although I think that's certainly, that that's valuable to in some way, and we could argue about whether that accomplishes that, it's also, I have this feeling, what happened to me when I had kids, and I, I about them a thousand times more than the next thing in the universe, and it's not even close, is I started really projecting that onto other people, even though I already did, but it's just more salient, you know?

And I think if someone, my kid just knocked over a kid, let's say, I want very much, not juste from Phoebe's point de vue, but from my point de vue. I want to acknowledge that they've been hurt and they've ben wronged in some way.

0:16:30 Tom: Gosh, yeah, this is, like, Yeah,

0:17:57 Thomas: Because their kid and their relationship to them is just as important, important as my kid, and my relationship to my kid, it'll

0:17:57 Eli: Let me jump in there because I, yeah, let me jump In there because that I agree with that. I agree With mine is about a difference. My opinion is about A difference intact, right? So if I'm at a playground, I mean the, the image of my son pushing anyone over, let alone interacting with them. But if I'm

0:18:15 Thomas: Happen it will happen it will

0:18:17 Tom: It will 100%.

0:18:17 Thomas: Have trust me

0:18:17 Eli: At a playground and Max pushes someone over, here are the two separate things I want to communicate, right? I want to comunicate to Max that what he did is wrong, right, that we do not push people. And, like, he doesn't share. There have been moments where I've had to be like, hey, it's not your turn. Like, you've got to share that, right. And then I, the adult who empathizes with the child, I want a turn to the child and I want tell them I'm sorry that Max pushed them over.

0:18:18 Tom: No,

0:18:45 Eli: And want them to know that I, the adult, understand the pain they're in, and want them to feel well, and want them to feel safe, and want them to be happy, and having the emotions genuinely to turn to that kid and say, hey, I'm so sorry about that. He's, he doesn't understand that kind of thing, or he's a little bit, little, but you know, I, I'm so sorry, are you okay? And then checking in with them, also apologizing to the parent so the parent understands that I have that empathetic connectivity. What I don't want to do is try to juice that empathy out of my kid, right?

0:18:44 Tom: That's exactly wrong.

0:19:15 Tom: Insane. I

0:19:15 Eli: Certainly

0:19:15 Tom: Love you, I love it, I love that, I love what you do, but that's insane, and, like... You're not raising a toddler, you're raising somebody who is, at the briefest moment of their life, a toddler, raising, right, is not a child, you're raising something that will be a child for the briefest glimpse of their 80 or 90 years on this planet, you're not going to be around most of the time forever, that is the truth, you are just not going be around to do that emotional work for that kid, you have to teach the kid, not just like one, there's a social expectation that is valuable that I think kids need to learn about this social interaction of an apology, I is expected in that circumstance to apologize, and it is socially valuable to do the things that are socially accepted, so like there's a value, there's just a social reality value to that, that if you don't teach them to do, they're going to be a fucking weirdo who appears to push people over like a psychopath, and then waits for their dad to show up when they're 30 to swing by and be like, I don't know, I'm sorry, I stole, you stole your car, that's fucking weird, like

0:20:24 Eli: Possible.

0:20:25 Tom: That's such

0:20:26 Eli: It's certainly possible, here's my thought, though, because it goes exactly to what you were saying, Tom, as an adult, I think adults, 'cause it's so, it's, you touched on it so many times in the blog, and I was like, oh, I should be taking notes while you were reading, because I was like, I want to talk about these so much, because there's...

There's this very important thing, and I think we have a real key difference here, and Thomas, you touched on a little bit of like, this person loves their kid as much as I do, like, that empathetic experience there, that moment of like, when someone says that you hurt them, believe them, and apologize, was also a thing that my dad was very big into, it's one of his 50 things, is when someone says, hurt, hurt them, believe them, and apologize, except I see people all the time inauthentically using that, and I'm talking about personal exemptions, like, all sorts of stuff, I think it is a miserable societal construct that people expect, and, like, I really think it happens because as kids, we get paraded over to each other, and we get these apologies juiced out of us by adults, on a regular basis, I see people be like, hey, that thing hurt me, and I'm just like, no, it didn't, it didn't, you just want to do this crazy social construct thing, right? Example of this, I'll give an absolutely fabulous example of this, we have, um, right, friendship does not origin with me, um, we went out to dinner together, and

0:21:51 Eli: I'm trying to think of it

0:21:49 Tom: A tortured phrase I know you're trying to be so careful but I want to point out how tortured that became because I loved it I

0:21:56 Thomas: And

0:21:54 Eli: I'm being here hey can I come live with you, Tom, then let me fucking fuck around with this sentence for a second again, and we went out to dinner, and we, lovely dinner, it was all totally fine, the wife and the couple is a little bit sensitive, so and we went to the coat check, and I got Anna's coat check, and I just wasn't thinking, I did not get her coat as well, I went and I got Anna's coat, and she was like, oh, did you get my coat? And I was like, oh, no, I'm so sorry.

0:22:00 Tom: Love you buddy yeah

0:22:24 Eli: And she she was like, right, exactly, and then Tom bashed through the wall, and he was like don't you know she's not a person, but no, no, but she was, like, oh, okay, and did that, and, then, we were supposed to go to other things, and I could tell, there's this weird thing that, you know, when someone's acting, but they're not an actor, so they're, not particularly good, she was acting, she, She was doing like, and I realized like, oh, oh she wants me to apologize, right? And

0:22:24 Thomas: Then Tom's blog gave you a virus and yelled at you just for yes and

0:22:56 Eli: Again, I did

0:22:56 Tom: But you did in your example you said, oh, I'm sorry, like, on the same page, like, you're talking about, like, the need for some overwrought self -flagellating shame -based like, and bullshit, like, just to be clear, like, I am not an advocate of that at all, like, under almost any circumstance, like, unless you do something fucking horrible, which I can't even imagine, like I'm never an advocate for, an advocate other than what I wrote, which is simple, sincere, and heartfelt, which in this circumstance, it's, it's the thing that happened which

0:22:58 Eli: Absolutely, yeah.

0:23:31 Thomas: If someone that move where they don't accept the apology, you have to judge, it has to be proportionate to what happened, and there's times where maybe you don't understand what happened and there's a deeper thing or whatever. Maybe you're not aware or whatever. But for the most part, if you bump someone with your shopping cart in the store or something, oh, sorry about that, or something minor, and they don'T accept your apology and continue to make a big deal about it, I'm a fan of, all right, fuck off. Like, seriously, instant turn the tables to, like, I gave you the sorry because now you're doing a bad to me and fuck off. Like, totally turn on a dime. If they don't accept what's happening and are trying to make a bigger deal about it than it is, they can get a fuck you. Like, that's, you know, that is total.

0:23:51 Tom: That's it right yeah same, 100 right

0:24:16 Eli: Maybe then we are on the same page because I'm only thinking of, those quick apologies are great and I mean them, right, those aren't fake. They're like, oh, I'm sorry about it, right. It was my natural instinct. I am, when I think of apology, I am thinking of the big thing, right, the, like, oh, hey, um, I'm so sorry, I just wanted to take a moment, uh, you know, when I sneezed and you were in the middle of that super great joke

0:24:16 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, right. I

0:24:22 Tom: Yeah Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:38 Thomas: Started that joke that you didn't have feet and it took over the entire podcast universe for five to ten years. We'll see how long. I didn't know what I was doing. This why I haven't received an apology for that?

0:24:49 Eli: Wait oh I knew I knew I knew that was literally under the premise of we were starting a podcast feud, and can I say, we nailed it.

0:24:56 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:01 Tom: I think those like, those apologies are, are, they are sincere. Like you are like, you bump into someone's cart. You are sorry. You bumped into them. You know, like, you run over somebody's fucking baby carriage, you're sorry, but you don't need to, like, oh my god, I'm the worst, let me lick your fucking shoes and kill myself on TV for your gratification, like none of that, like none of That.

0:25:23 Eli: I want to teach Max the little apologies. Because we've all had the playground psycho, and we all know the playground psycho where there's a kid just roaming around the playground, just tossing other children around. You don't want that, you do want the little apologies... I don't know, maybe it's because I was such a jerk as a child, I remember several times being forced to apologize in front of classrooms and how deeply shaming and how much I hated those experiences, like hated them

0:25:36 Tom: Yeah yeah

0:25:36 Thomas: What did you do? Start a rumor that no one in your class had feet? What did You?

0:25:59 Eli: Thomas Thomas, are you turning this episode into about about the feet thing

0:26:06 Tom: That think

0:26:05 Thomas: This is actually the only reason I did this podcast with you. For finally, finally getting to it. I thought I was going to get my apology, but no. Turns out you have a philosophical problem with apologizing.

0:26:18 Eli: It's because you're not a woman, Thomas, I don't apologize because

0:26:22 Tom: Got to start an OnlyFans, like, just a foot-based OnlyFans, you green screen your feet, eat out though, like that's but you kind of have to do that now

0:26:30 Eli: You yes

0:26:27 Thomas: If someone hasn't started a entry on that website that has everyone's feet for me, and but it's just like a blank thing that well yeah, someone should do that, actually I

0:26:35 Tom: Yeah

0:26:35 Eli: Wiki feet someone go hey I know We have foot perverts in our audience, because occasionally they've written to me, to be helpful.

0:26:43 Thomas: May edit all of this out just because I don't want to hear another stupid fucking joke about this, but this is almost worth If there's one acceptable dumbass fucking joke that's not funny and hasn't been funny since 20 hours after you did it, um, would be it. That would be the one acceptable version, I think. I

0:26:59 Eli: Fun about this interaction, this may be a side note, is that there's no one more receptive to listener feedback and listener jokes and like listener conversation than Thomas, and so I truly had to break his psyche with these feet jokes for him to be as done with them, as he's the motley crew of feet jokes, just like, I don't sign at the, the door, get on the bus and go.

0:27:24 Tom: Like, I think you touched on something though, that that, that I think is interesting, Eli, which is that there is, I think, a, a conflation, and a problematic one, with an apology and being publicly shamed. And I think that an apology, unless you've like, unless you're a fucking congressman who's like done some horrible shit and lives like, like, and it's had a public impact, like an apology should never be about shame.

Like nobody should force you to stand in front of the class and like shame you in that public way. Like I, that that is fucking, like, I, I totally get it, you, right, come from a family where like it sounds like getting an apology was kind of pulling teeth, and the apologies then would only be attached to sort of like bigger things. And then you were like called up in front of people to be like publicly shamed.

But in my mind, a conflict can't resolve, not really, without ownership. And an apology is a way to say, like, I'm thinking of, like, I, an apology, like, in a, in, like, a fight between like me and my wife, for example, like, if I did something and I've upset Hayley, and I just say, I'll do do better, that sort of like, okay, well, uh, but like if I say, look, I'm really sorry, I shouldn't have done it that way, and I'll do better, and I was not intended to hurt you, that

0:28:44 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:44 Tom: That resolves the whole thing, because it acknowledges their feelings and it, like, takes ownership, and I think, like, we have to teach that shit to our kids, because if you skip that step, like, people feel really invalidated from that, like, if they, it serves so much practical, personal, and social value, but I think like we've all gotten this, like, oh my god, like there are people you can't fucking pull an apology out of to save your fucking life, and try resolving conflict in a genuine way with those people it's fucking horrible

0:28:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:13 Thomas: You You don't, you do not. That's, that's the biggest danger of, of Eli, what you're saying that I worry about. But A couple of things. First off, I think we were dealing with this with Phoebe, because she, she really bullies Arlo just all the time. And we do try to get her to apologize sometimes when she's done, you know, when she hits him, when she does, you know, and Lydia read something or saw something that I thought, I'll throw it out there, I think it's pretty decent, which is because I think she, we were worried about this very thing, because Phoebe would beat you, Arlo, with a baseball bat or whatever, and then we'll be like, you know, please apologize to your brother, and she'll be like, okay, that doesn't, that's nothing, you know, yeah but but we didn't want to go on forever.

Lydia found something that said that, I think this is just a parent saying what they were doing, and and they're like, this, when happens, I say, I think that was very sincere, please try again, and then whatever they do the next time, you just accept it. And the idea was the first one signals to them, like, hey, people are expecting something here, they're not, it's not a magic, it's actually precisely not a magic words thing, I

0:29:15 Tom: Yeah Yeah. Right. Right,

0:29:51 Eli: That's not an appallant, right? Yes

0:30:23 Thomas: Think that teaches them you don't just say the magic word of fool and then like that solved it. You have to kneel a little more. But then the fact that you don't make them do it for fucking ever is acknowledging the fact that they're a kid you know they they have so many feelings and emotions that are so intense and this is a really hard thing for some kids that you accepting it you know you're believing them on that second one and I thought that sounded pretty smart I think we're gonna, we've started doing that, yeah

0:30:24 Tom: Right. Yeah. Think, too, that like you have to teach kids, like, I think there's a really important moral lesson that people, in a lot of, I made a lot of fucking adults that don't really get this, that they don't understand that they can do something wrong without being a bad person. And I think that learning about and thinking about apologies in the way that I've tried to frame it allows that to happen, right? Thinkthat a lot of people, it's difficult to pull an apology out of people, because if I've apologized for something, I am acknowledging something about myself in a sort of categorical sense, right, that I am bad. And I think that we can do better and allow people to say, look, I made a mistake, I could do better, next time I'll try to do better.

That's why I think an apology has more than one part, right? I wrote my blog pretty specifically, I think an apology has to acknowledge the thing that you've done wrong and then pledge to do better, and it has to have elements to it in order for it to not become this categorical thing, right? It's like, oh, I'm sorry I pushed you down, I didn't mean to hurt you, I'll try not to do that again.

0:31:05 Thomas: I

0:31:05 Eli: That's huge, my

0:32:03 Tom: Right or I'll trying to be more careful, yeah and the circumstances

0:32:03 Thomas: Also think and and it is dependent on who you're apologizing to and whatever, but like when I think of the example of yeah No, no, I, I agree, I think that's, that's good stuff, and I'm just saying that, um, when it came to the, the show apology that I did, that, that those are feelings that I have because of, you know, insecurities that I think are instilled from, from my history, where it's like, you know, if I'm apologizing for something, that's acknowledging that I fucking suck and I did something wrong, and it is hard, but I've tried to get to the point where it's like, all right, I have to imagine that I am speaking to a reasonable person, or a person who is in a position to say, oh, well, you know, that thing did kind of hurt me, but, you know, you've acknowledged it and it wasn't the end of the world, and didn't mean that you're Adolf Hitler.

And if there's anyone who doesn't accept that and is like, sorry, doesn't matter, I can't accept, you're dead to me, then it's okay, that's, and and that's me, put, there's out what you think is reasonable, and you do your best, you introspect, you, if other the party or parties, if there's people who don't accept it, and do the thing I talked about earlier with the shopping cart, you don't necessarily have to tell them, fuck you, but you can just say, happy to go my merry way, sorry that you, you know, that happened, you feel that way, and that's the end of that relationship. Like, it just, if it's somebody that you're not intimately involved in, yeah.

0:32:09 Tom: I'm speaking broadly, yeah Didn write this for the blog, but, like, like a corollary to that too, is that, and I wasn't sure how to write this to the, the, to kids, so I wasn't sure how to approach it, but also, like, there's some shit that an apology doesn't cut it for, right? So, like, you can't, like, rape somebody and be like, oh, I'm sorry, I won't do that again, right? Like My bad, right? There's... There's some shit that you can do that does speak to your moral character, right? That does, that is categorical about who you are as a person.

And I think that shit needs to live outside of the idea of an apology, because an apology has no influence on that. And so, like, you don't get a get-out-of-being-a-bad-person-free card because you've apologized. Like, an apology only rises to a certain level of wronging someone, after which an apology is an insincere, or just a meaningless, like, gesture. So, like, there's a... there's is a proportionality to, and you mentioned that earlier, Thomas, but, and I didn't know how to, like, address that with the kids, because hopefully they won't do anything I've

0:33:44 Eli: Bad

0:33:45 Thomas: I Yeah.

0:34:33 Tom: Written about this in other places, like, I hope that they will never do anything that they actually, that speaks to their character in that way.

0:34:34 Thomas: Yeah. Well, and that's the kind... I think about that a lot with, like, you know, parolees, and, um, so I used to work for, uh, in California, in the budgets and all that, and the numbers shit, but, like, some of those topics where it's like, these are people who have done really, really bad things, and, like, what, you know, what are parole boards, which are obviously all fucking pieces of shit in this country, and it's bad, but, like, what would an ideal situation look like?

Restorative justice type thing. And I think if you're ever talking about something that's so severe that it's like a sorry is not going to cut it, I think the best you could do, and I just think about this because it's interesting, I think best you can do is like full acknowledgement of what happened, and, and, and that you understand the situation, like, how bad it was, and how what you did was bad, and that your sorry, but not in, it's not an apology, like, in, in a marriage, in a relationship, where you are apologizing and trying to maintain a relationship, it's an apology of like, I realize what, what done was so bad, um, I'm grasping the full weight of it and the full effect of it, but it's not an apology in a way of like, okay, so now can we be friends, you know, it's just like I'm

0:35:34 Tom: Right. Right.

0:35:47 Thomas: It would be, yeah.

0:35:46 Tom: Yeah, there's no conflict resolution, yeah.

0:35:48 Thomas: No, it's, it's truly acknowledgement I think really does help victims, like, I, based on my reading and, you know, and stuff I've come across, loss, it acknowledged, in that you were wronged, is a major portion of a lot of people's healing. And if you, were ever to my kids, or me, or, you know, Eli, we're ever to murder somebody, we're going to do something that's like, you know, so like

0:35:49 Tom: Right. Yeah.

0:36:10 Tom: Eli has to apologize for his kids murdering someone one

0:36:12 Thomas: Let's say you ran over a baby or something, just something crazy, you know, it would never happen Yeah.

0:36:15 Eli: Just saying taller strollers people

0:36:18 Thomas: Like would be, what I said, like, it would be a good thing for you to try to help the healing process of the victim or the victim's family by putting in that acknowledgement. But it's not a sorry in a way of like, all right, so we're good now? We good? We good now. It's not that. It's totally different. And I think one more, sorry, one more note on this. I think there's a bit of a parallel here in Eli's attitude. Remember when we did the masculinity episode, and we should do more of that, where we're talking about gender and Eli's like, ah, gender's gone. Doesn't even exist anymore. More, and we're like, ah, I think there's a lot of Americas not fully with you there, coastal elite Eli Bosnick, and I think this might be similar, where,

0:36:18 Eli: Taller strollers

0:36:19 Tom: Right.

0:36:35 Tom: Coastal

0:36:58 Eli: That's how I'm

0:36:59 Thomas: Yeah,

0:36:59 Eli: Introducing myself on the pod from now on, Coastal elite Yeah.

0:37:01 Tom: Elite Eli Bosnick. Yeah.

0:37:00 Thomas: I think that there's something similar going on here, Eli, where I think you are, of what you're talking about is appropriate for a very reasonable, sophisticated group of people, but we are raising our kids to operate in the the world. And the world is full of fucking honor culture, murdery people, you know, like the world is full off, honestly, really bad people and being that like, culture is a real thing, the bullshit.

And it's very masculine to this idea that like, if somebody wronged you, you're a man, if you haven't fucking beaten them up, unless they apologize, all this shit, you You know, like that kind of stuff is real And teaching my kids to do that kind of, you know, knee jerk reaction of if you bump somebody, if something, how you accidentally trip somebody, whatever, something, some shit happens, it is good to try to teach them, "Oh, I'm sorry," to get at that right away, because that's the world they're going to live in. They're going live in a world where they're not going to have time to explain, "But you understand if I'm not really sorry, my dad told me I shouldn't"

0:37:23 Tom: Right.

0:37:40 Eli: Out

0:38:03 Thomas: Have probably mean like somebody's beating them up, you know.

0:38:03 Eli: This is a societal construct, I say. Okay, well, it's funny, because I, how I got a bunch of ass kickings that I got in my life, right, is that truly is that people, I would say something, and someone would say some, they'd be like, yeah, motherfucker, and I'd be, look at your two teeth, and I do a a tight five on what their genes suggested about their family heritage, and they, there would be the moment to apologize, and I'll be like, no, I'm gonna go ahead and get punched, because I'm in this for a good time, not for a long time.

I remember the most grievous injury, well, aside from DJ, may he live in happiness and joy forever and ever. But the second worst injury I ever got is, I don't even remember what it was. Some kid was picking on the fact that I didn't have a girlfriend. And so I made like four or five jokes about his girlfriend, friend right, because it was, it was, we were bantering, right, and he started to walk, I remember this super duper well, because it's the only time anyone got in trouble for beating me up, um, there was a

0:38:06 Tom: My

0:38:27 Thomas: Sure.

0:39:06 Eli: Universal agreement in Binghamton High School that you, sometimes you just need, everyone got a turn, couple of teachers took a turn, it's fine, but there's the, I remember him going around and he was like, "What did you say? What did he say?" And he got like really, really close to my face, and I remember so clearly recognizing, like, hey, this guy's gonna really, really hurt you if you don't deescalate the situation. And instead I just said, "Oh, are you deaf too?" And he just, he just went to town on me.

0:39:09 Tom: That's fine

0:39:32 Eli: He was so much bigger than I was. And he, it was the, it was the only time my nose is, I don't know if you've had your nose broken, but there's broken to the right, broken to left, broken flat, right? Where your nose gets pushed in, like into your face. It's the only time my nose got broken in. Uh, and I remember, cause, because everyone was freaked, because it looks way scarier than it, it's fine, but it looks way scarrier than it is.

You look like you're going to be a pug for the rest of your life. And I remember thinking, like, ah, man, that's, and I didn't know at the time, so I was like, ah, am I a pug now? This is going to make acting tough. So maybe a part of it is just, because it's crazy, you guys are, the way you guys are talking right now, it is so interesting. I agree with everything you're saying. And then my brain checks back in.

And again, I want to admit up at the outset here, I think I'm wrong, right, like, I'm being silly, and we're having fun on our comedy show, I think I'm wrong, but it's so funny to check back in with my brain, and my brain's like, fuck it, no, absolutely not, do not apologize, no matter what, because I cannot rid myself of the association of shame and threat, um

0:39:32 Thomas: Be

0:40:35 Tom: Yeah.

0:40:35 Eli: I think you hit the nail on the head, Thomas, which is exactly right, which is, as someone who is chosen in the face of sort of toxic masculinity, and I would just say cultural toxicity, not to participate, apology is like part of that for me, and so instead of associating it with, like, as Tom said, like, just a thing we do in society to keep things going, I associate it as like a convention of embarrassment, so I don't do it, right?

0:40:36 Tom: Yeah.

0:41:05 Tom: I would offer you two other things to think about, like, one, know that, like, you were willing to take the ass beating rather than offer the the apology, but if Max doesn't know how to apologize, then he's gonna take the ass beating, and that seems like something you probably don't want for him

0:41:22 Thomas: Hard to taste figs with that crushed pug nose, yeah.

0:41:24 Tom: Right So also, just like, and again, like, I would, I would point you to, maybe not, I don't wanna like make any assumptions about your relationships, but like, just think about the value of an apology in other relationships that that do matter. And being able to author a real apology to resolve conflict in a way that's genuine is like at the heart of having a healthy and non-toxic relationship, relationships with people. Like I have, I've apologized in a heartfelt and sincere way to Cecil. I have done things entirely unintentionally that have hurt somebody that I care deeply about, and the only way to get back to that place of being as close as he and I have been for 25 years was for me to have the wherewithal and the lack of like weirdness about it to just be like, "Hey, here's the thing I did, I shouldn't have done it, I can do better, I am really sorry I hurt you." And it was resolved like that, because that's, if you do it well, it's all it takes. Yeah.

0:41:45 Thomas: Yeah. I wanted to talk about this before out of time, because this is a critical interaction. There's, and I know it obviously always comes back to my narcissist dad, but there's other people in my life that I've had this dynamic with too, and it sucks. And it's something that I'm terrified of being on the other end of, because if you're ever with somebody in some sort of relationship, a friendship or whatever, ever the family member, uh, cannot, pathologically cannot, apologize or be wrong, by the way, like that's a big thing, they can't be wrong, that isn't a real relationship, what it is is it's as much as you can tolerate, because they will give you nothing.

And then what happens is these patterns, I've noticed it so many times, it's with my dad, uh, and then also I've seen it with other people, with certain people, where it's a, it's a matter of, like, if you are dealing with someone like that who can't be wrong, can't apologize, you just go as much as you can until things blow up and get so frustrating that, you have, things are totally coasting along an even keel and then, like, though a very minor thing will happen, it's the straw that broke the camel's back, you know, you're like, god damn it," and there's, like, way over the top,

0:42:51 Tom: Yeah I totally agree, right.

0:43:34 Eli: Yeah

0:43:34 Thomas: More mad than ever because you bottle up all this stuff that they never apologize for, they never will be wrong about, and then they don't understand, they're like, "Whoa, that's just a minor thing that happened, why are you making a big deal," and like I've seen this pattern a million times and it sucks because, what, the only thing that can happen for those people is not a real relationship, the only things that can is if you calm down enough and get over the fact that they're never gonna be wrong, then you can, like, kind of talk to him again, but it's never gonna, real relationship, and it's heartbreaking. And I've worried, I think when I was younger I was on the other side of that, because of the patterns I picked up from my dad, and it horrifies it me to no end because I picked up by example the idea that I just, I'm never wrong, I'm fucking never wrong, you, that pattern, and it's not good, and you can't have real relationships with people, that's

0:43:36 Tom: Yeah yeah yeah

0:44:21 Eli: It's interesting, I, I think I have a very similar proclivity, I'm trying to think of who it came from, because my, I don't picture either of my parents not apologizing or caring about that, um, I take it in the opposite direction, so I immediately go to, I am wrong, right, even if I completely don't believe it, right, just do a fake, "Hey, I'm wrong and you're right." No, absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah, you're right. The sky's green. Totally. Yeah. No, I don't know why I didn't see the sky was green. Now that I think about it, the sky is a tinge of green and sometimes that looks bluish to stupid fat beetle filled people. But like, now I realize I'm wrong and you're right.

But what was interesting, and again, I hate to turn this episode into, "We reveal that Eli's a fucking raging psychopath," is that I can't remember the last time that I said, "You're right and I'm wrong," to someone and I wasn't ameliorating conflict, right, I was like, "Oh, hey, you're right about this thing and I m wrong about this th ng instead of just being like, "Oh, look, they're getting upset, I gotta do this, it's time, it's t ime for the magic spell that makes people feel

0:44:39 Tom: Oh okay

0:45:23 Eli: Better," sure.

0:45:24 Thomas: Interesting, yeah.

0:45:24 Tom: Eli, that I'll be honest, I thought about you, and I thought about other relationships that I've had, when I talk about the manipulative use of apology for conflict dissolution rather than resolution, and I think that there's a, just as toxic, and I think it's deeply toxic what Thomas was talking about, right, which is, it's super toxic to be the fucking guy who can never apologize, being the fucking man who can never apologize is just the most, like, bland sort of everyday Marlboro version of that kind of, like, like toxicity, but it is a different, yeah, right.

0:45:46 Eli: Yeah

0:45:58 Tom: It's Trump. It is a different kind of toxic to be the person who apologizes to dissolve a conflict rather than resolve one. And having been in relationships with people that have done that, it, it does, is it says, there's no point to bringing up an issue, it will never resolve, we won't hash it out, there will not be a points of, like, or compromise, there will, will just come this moment where the apology is immediate and over the top, and I'll actually feel bad about making you feel this bad, because the intent was to actually bring an issue up and resolve it rather than to, like, create this dissolving effect. And then over time you just, like, well, I just don't bring things up because it's actually pointless because we won't hash anything out. What we'll do instead is you'll just absorb all of the blame and we won't actually have, have a real conversation, it's

0:45:56 Thomas: It's Trump yeah it's yeah

0:46:49 Eli: Yeah

0:46:49 Tom: The death of it. It's a different side of that same toxicity, it's, it's really manipulative and deflective.

0:46:57 Eli: I think you're spot on the money, and I honestly, I think where it comes from, and again, like, I'm hearing this in real time, so I'm trying to think of, like, where this comes from in me, because it doesn't seem to come from either of my parents, at least to my recollection.

I think it comes from the fact that I have a really bad temper, um, so one of the things that's come up, each time when you talk about conflict, is resolution, like, in order to not do the manipulative apology, in order to actually own that and move forward, you might have to acknowledge how you're feeling, and since what I'm feeling 99% of the time that I'm in a situation where conflict would need to be addressed is white hot rage that I'm barely keeping inside the ring box that is my soul. I have learned, like, hey, if you, you know, because again, like, how I interact with the world is as a empathetic, quick to apologize, quick to ameliorate person, right, I am not a Trump, I like to think of myself as an opposite of a Trump, but it's funny that you mentioned that, Thomas, because I, I think sometimes that, and maybe this isn't just me, there's a Trump on the inside

0:47:32 Tom: Yeah

0:47:59 Eli: And I've over corrected rather than just owning how those emotions feel. I

0:47:59 Tom: I've I can identify with that, Eli, I have a fucking temper that used to get me into a lot of trouble, and I have worked really hard to not have a temper, but, like, go, and I'll be like, "Okay, I'm upset about something, I'm going to talk to my wife about," I'm gonna talk to Hayley and, like, I will be extremely careful and very cautious because

0:48:26 Eli: Do the exact same thing. It drives Anna crazy.

0:48:27 Tom: I know and it makes her so mad right, it the same thing, she hates it, and I, and I've had to say like, "Look," I and she's like, "I can hear you controlling your breathing," she's like, "I touch your hand and you're shaking from the adrenaline dump of being so mad at me," you Know, but you're, you, you're like a fucking robot and I'm like you gotta understand, like I have two options, this is the better option, the better action, but I think in that space, because I fucking feel you, man. Like my whole life I was like barely hanging on to it, right? And I have worked really hard to be, I can hold on to it almost no matter what. So like I almost never lose my temper at all with anyone, I don't raise my voice, like I'm pretty fucking good, but like I am the actor you mentioned that doesn't know how to act, right? Like it's obvious, nobody misunderstands that, Tom

0:48:29 Eli: She hates it.

0:48:42 Thomas: Tom.

0:48:44 Eli: Yes.

0:49:24 Tom: Is upset

0:49:25 Thomas: Is like to be or not to be, this is the cool, fuck yeah wait, just, I

0:49:28 Eli: No,

0:49:28 Tom: So it's a hard space and I don't have any advice on, I just, I'm just here with you. It's a, it's a hard place to be.

0:49:32 Eli: It's Karate. I karate. Everything becomes karate hands, hands, and I'll be like, okay, so here's what I'm feeling right now. And what I want to communicate to you is that I feel like if I were more emotional about this situation, it might be taken more seriously. So I instantly go into like, it drives my poor sweet wife who just wants to be like, hey man, load the dishwasher or whatever. And I'm like, okay, so I've drawn a chart on this whiteboard so that I don't possibly ever feel any of the negative emotions that I might possibly, there's no conflict here, because I'm using all SAT words, it's, ah, it's

0:50:07 Thomas: Think

0:50:10 Tom: Who

0:50:16 Thomas: It really comes down to what relationship, what kind of relationships you want with which people, and like there are plenty of relationships that I think Eli's attitude there works with, but what I would worry about, Eli, is that it, if you do that with someone that you want to have a deeper relationship with, then it might feel like, for me in my mind, that would feel, feel bad to me, but I don't know. Like if that's just my preference, if I, if it's a fucking coworker, yeah.

0:50:45 Tom: Cares?

0:50:45 Thomas: You're, you know, like you, sometimes I call it insincere. Maybe it's insincère in some ways, but you're going to resolve, or as Tom, I think that's a really good turn of phrase, like dissolve the conflict in certain ways, because you got to fucking, at the end of the day, you need to work with this person, whatever, you don't want, you don't, you're not trying to have a deep soulmate relationship with this person, you just got to get by, but if that, like, applies to too many people, I don't know, it feels weird, it feels like a little bit surface level, you know, but I also wonder if maybe in a weird way, because I'm always trying to figure out how I'm wrong in the situation, I wonder if that just, that impulse that you're having to always be getting along with people, isn't like a good sign that you do want good relationships with people. Like maybe that is what it is, like you, you just, you're terrified of having these real conflicts and you'd rather just get it out of the way right away.

If that comes from an impulse of you just want to be on good terms with these people because you like them and you know, like, don't want to be fighting, maybe that does come from a good place, but if it, I could also see another side that's like, I don't care enough about these fucking

0:50:46 Tom: Yeah. Yep.

0:51:13 Eli: Yeah

0:51:49 Thomas: Plebs to really get into it with them, that's, that's the dangerous side, I think which

0:51:53 Eli: For sure, I to think it's the first thing I liketo think it' the first thing, but I, I, I definitely feel, Tom, in that, and Tom's been there, Tom has seen it, right? Tom has witnessed theater managers get the full brunt of the false, manipulative, you know, apologies in the middle of Chicago because we're running late for a show. So I think, I think it's both ways, I think that it's what's more interesting is that, like, what I do want to pass on to my son is this authentic, the authentic ability to apologize exactly as much, without embarrassing himself, without prostrating himself, uh and from a definite position of empathy, as opposed to the two extremes that I find myself at, which is instantly wanting to dissolve the conflict because conflict is scary and bad and I don't like it, or instantly wanting to dissolve the conflict because I don't believe someone is worthy of the attention and emotion that conflict would, um, yeah

0:52:04 Thomas: Is

0:52:31 Tom: Yeah.

0:52:53 Thomas: Valid in certain contexts for sure, yeah, you

0:52:54 Tom: Yeah, I, yeah. And I, I will say I have been, I have noticed your conflict dissolution skills. It is not a new turn of phrase for me. I have notice that Eli, to the point where I have taught several of my managers in professional contexts to do exactly what I've noticed you doing. So I've actually taken that and I have taught it to a bunch of my managers like, all right, guys, here's a way. This fixes it in an instant, in an instance. Because I think conflict dissolution is a powerful skill to have in your pocket for circumstances and relationships that are surface, that are the theater manager in Chicago, or that are the customer who's upset and it doesn't matter if we learn wrong, but like, you know, like the client, you know, etc. Like I think that's a really great skill, so much so that I have changed it and tweaked it and actually taught it to people in a professional setting. I think, though, that interpersonally it is tragically problematic if

0:52:55 Eli: For now right yeah, so

0:53:56 Tom: It's overused

0:53:57 Thomas: Know, I don't know if you said, Eli, but like, do you apologize to Anna? Like, do you guys have, or do you have that dynamic you're talking about where it's like, you don't, you don's want to

0:54:06 Eli: Here's what I was thinking about, because there have been times that I've apologized to Anna, um, very, nowadays, I mean, truly, Anna and I have had, and I mean this, Anna and I have two fights, right? Once she was trying to fix the computer and I was trying to tell her what to do and she was frustrated and didn't want to listen. And we just both got snippy and we walked out of the room. We both came in and we both apologized.

And one time she got killed by a bird in Zelda and I laughed and she yelled at me, which for anyone who's familiar with our wedding vows or has seen any of the live streams, she wrote a song about that particular incident. But one of the things that comes up for me and Anna is, so I'm like an idea tester. I don't know if this is either of you guys, but at core, if I get a new idea, one of the ways that I work it out is I argue it out with someone I trust, right? It's not, hey, I believe the opposite of this thing, it's like, okay, let's poke at this idea from all directions, right?

My wife loves people, all heart, all empathy, so there have been moments, I would say all of the moments, where I have apologized in our relationships is when I've been poking at an idea and she's like, hey man, do you actually feel that way?

Because that, I don't want to be with a person, and I don't want to be around a person who, and I don't like, it's not that I, it's not, I'm over, over there being like, but what if we did feed the poor to the wild pigs, right? I'm just trying to figure out all the arguments on the angle. And she's like, why are you making arguments to kill the poor? Right? It's that Mitchell and Webb sketch.

Gosh, I didn't realize if the budget worked out, you'd be all for killing the poor, Stevenson. And in those moments, I have been able to own it and apologize. It's so weird, that to me doesn't register as an apology. That's just like, like, good communication with someone you love.

So maybe I've just, I've created this insane category, because I'm a psychopath, of like, no, apologies are only when they put you in the stocks in front of the class in third grade, and you have to sing the song of sorrow

0:54:33 Thomas: Interesting

0:56:10 Eli: That everyone must hear, and they all chant, we hear him, we here him!

0:56:13 Tom: Yeah yeah, well, I think, I think there's a performative element that you are pushing back on, and I think the performative element of an apology is something you should push back on, it's bullshit, oh

0:56:24 Thomas: I it just occurred to me, a, uh, classic, you, husband and wife trope that I hate so much that directly applies here is the fucking, well, she's always right, even if she's wrong, well you know, that is so fucking infantilizing, I, that that applies to like 80 percent of American couples, apparently, is this like idea that like the woman is just nuts and wrong, and but you still apologize to her because she's always right, quote unquote, oh that too

0:56:51 Eli: Mm-hmm. I thought you were going to go with the sleep on the couch trope, which I I could do a Whole episode of, like, we had an argument so now she's afraid of me sexually, like, well, I don't- I genuinely do not understand what that is, but you're sleeping on the couch tonight. Does that mean you're not getting... like, every time we share a bed we fuck, or does it mean, okay, me?

0:56:55 Tom: My god, yeah in the doghouse

0:56:55 Thomas: Yeah No, it's just not wanting to be intimately right next to somebody that you're mad at, I think, is what that's supposed to be. Is all how I always took it, but uh, yeah.

0:57:23 Eli: I- I've never had that experience. I mean, look, me and my ex definitely went to bed mad at- at each other, we were just like, stay on your fucking- -side of the bed, man.

0:57:30 Thomas: Yeah. To apologize a lot, that's interesting. But I- I wonder if it's like, you- you guys are better people than me because I was raised by Gollum, as we established. Like, there are just times where my first impulse is kind of shitty, in certain times, like, and when I'm tired, when I'm hungry, when I have, you know, don't have my wherewithal, like I'm not running the better processor on my brain of, like, filter the fucking goblin impulses through this, like, like nice- There's this sand filter that then comes out the bottom, real human comes out, like, sometimes we, you know, the- the- I get the Windows error and blue screen on that, and so, like, my brain- -is just, does the, like, annoyed for no good reason to my wife, you know, and it's just like short with her.

And then I- I've tried as hard as I can to recognize that, and for us it's kind of a weird dynamic because, as I've said before, like, Lydia is so, like, wouldn't call me out on that stuff. She's too- she's people pleasing to really directly me out much. So I have this fear that if I don't apologize, if I don't recognize what I've done that's wrong, that she's going to start to be like, "Well, I guess maybe that's how supposed to be treated." I'm terrified of that. I-

0:58:00 Tom: Yeah.

0:58:09 Eli: Oh.

0:58:43 Thomas: -don't want that to happen.

0:58:43 Tom: And- I- -think that's- -a real fear that- -like, yeah.

0:58:47 Thomas: Yeah. No, Anna's not like that.

0:58:45 Eli: See, Anna- -the- Op- the opposite, right? Sometimes, because I'll- sometimes we'll all be hanging out together, and I'm in razz mode, and I've had such a great night, we've all gone out to dinner and we've laughed and talked and had a great time, and we'll get home and I'll be like, "Hey, try not to drop your purse there, sloppy," and she'll be like, "Fucking- what- number- like," sorry, I'm gonna- -go. "Oh, stupid."

0:59:06 Thomas: I'm- -on the couch. No, bestiality.

0:59:11 Eli: No sex for me tonight. I get it.

0:59:14 Tom: What?

0:59:14 Eli: I'll go have sex with the dog at the dog house as we all societally understand I'm supposed to do. That's what it is. Your punishment is having sex with a dog. It's not for you guys, right? All Right. Well, gentlemen, before we go, important question. Question which- -podcast with ours could start with apologies and end with, uh, dog sex. No, um, yeah.

0:59:33 Tom: Yeah.

0:59:50 Thomas: Yeah, country.

0:59:51 Eli: Exactly.

0:59:51 Tom: -this- Family.

0:59:51 Eli: Yeah.

0:59:51 Tom: Show.

0:59:52 Eli: Family show. Hey, we found our niche, the swearing dance podcast. All right, before we go, important question. What genre of music do national anthems belong to? I'm pretty sure they're country music.

1:00:05 Thomas: Music, yeah.

1:00:06 Eli: You- Found-

1:00:06 Tom: No.

1:00:06 Thomas: They're- -as bad- -as country music, so I actually think that fits. Yeah. I- right, that's all the time we have this week. You know, I tell you about the stuff on patreon.com/dearolddads every week. I know you're probably tired of it. However, I just want to emphasize, on this particular episode, for the bonus story, we actually just kept going on the episode and did like another half episode of stuff, our dad stories. So that was kind of an organic thing that happened. Then we realized we went way too long and that became the patron story, so it's a great week to pledge and to go check out that extra bonus length, and of course the August bonus and the being a week ahead all the time, anyway, you know, all this stuff. That's patreon.com/dearolddads and as always, if you can't pledge, if you don't wanna, that's completely fine, we love having you as a listener, thank you so much for listening. Keep sharing the show, join that Facebook group, keep talking to us, reaching out. We love it so much. We're having a blast. We'll see you next time.

1:00:12 Eli: It, God-

1:01:12 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.