DOD7: When Attachment Takes Time

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that has absolutely thrown its golf clubs right into the goddamn water. I'm Tom Curry, I'm joined by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Good afternoon, gentlemen. I

0:00:41 Thomas: The golf clubs, the golf clubs. I'll tell you, as a young golfer and as a dude, you know when you're a young dude and always don't have your full frontal lobe going? Hard to contain the golf anger as a younger golfer. As a young man, I will say.

0:00:55 Tom: You strike me as a furious golfer, Thomas Smith, you strive get that 100 % you strike me as a furious golfer. Like, I just picture you coming back to the clubhouse and all of your clubs are bent at a right angle, like you got half the clubs you started off with, just

0:00:58 Eli: He's a furious Codenames player.

0:01:09 Thomas: Oh no. Uh, I am intensely competitive with myself in golf, but no, I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't hurt a club, but I will say one of the most embarrassing me stories ever is one in high school, or like, maybe it was like right after high school summer or something, I was golfing and like my girlfriend at the time was with me. And I hit, what was funny is I, I there are times when I've gotten really mad at golf. Like, it's just a fucking infuriating game. This particular time I hit a bad shot and wasn't even that mad, and that's what made this fun even funnier, was that I did the like "ah," and I kind of like was gonna do a small toss of the club just like ahead of where I was gonna walk anyway, you know, just like "ah" you know no, no, it's, this is, it's even funnier because I was not intending to do this at all, I was, I, I intended to do a small, the club, pick it up on my way to my shitty shot. But because of the physics of golf clubs, they're really weird.

0:01:52 Eli: I feel like history's being rewritten.

0:02:08 Thomas: Like you, you just weirdly, like the weight is on the end of it. So sometimes you can't throw it. It's like throwing a hammer sort of like it just, the end of it takes off in a weird way. And I accidentally, no,

0:02:18 Eli: So it hits her right in the side of the head.

0:02:20 Tom: Is This a story about how you killed your ex-girlfriend because I don't know that this should be on air?

0:02:24 Thomas: It a story of how I accidentally threw my club and it got stuck in a tree. Here I am like, am I really in this situation right now where I like, wasn't even that mad. I was like, ah, you know, but I like held onto it too long and it went straight up somehow and got stuck at a tree and you

0:02:29 Tom: Did you throw us an endless series of additional golf clubs into the tree just

0:02:48 Thomas: Got to throw whatever. And then you go into panic mode of like, okay, I am now in the worst fucking situation ever. I have to get this club out of this tree before the next person comes behind me or whatever in the golf course. And I threw a sequence things up there, you know, like just what I would have thrown myself up there if I could have.

0:03:08 Eli: Charlie Brown's just standing next to you with a kite. Don't do it, man. It's not worth it. It's just not fucking worth it. Yup.

0:03:14 Thomas: Fortunately it was a, not a very popular course. And I was able to some, I I actually think I got to the point where I was like, well, I guess I will leave my club up there.

0:03:24 Tom: Just the trees club now. That's it and

0:03:25 Thomas: Yeah. And the last thing I threw like did hit it and got it down. It was, Oh my God. That was the most embarrassing thing ever.

0:03:32 Tom: Did your girlfriend land okay when she came right after you threw her up there? Yeah.

0:03:35 Thomas: No, just really amused the whole time. Uh, rightfully so it was, uh, yeah, earned that laughter. That's fine. Accept it.

0:03:42 Eli: The about golf and guys who get mad at it is that they'll spend the whole day screaming at God and each other and then they'll come back to the clubhouse and be like, God, what a great day. What a fun day. I'll be like, that's most of my breakups is how that looked.

0:04:00 Thomas: Yeah. Oh. It's infuriating.

0:04:01 Tom: I Do You Golf, Eli, have you golfed? You and I, Eli, look me in the eyes. We are going golfing. You and I are going surfing the

0:04:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:04:03 Eli: No, I golfed. I'm in to

0:04:09 Thomas: We should do a ceremonial throw of a club into a tree to start it. Or to. Yeah. Actually

0:04:14 Eli: Begin It, that's

0:04:16 Tom: Three of us doesn't Oh.

0:04:16 Eli: Our Olympic big torch. Noah.

0:04:17 Tom: Holy shit, does Noah golf? I want to golf. He would be so mad.

0:04:20 Eli: Does golf.

0:04:20 Thomas: He does he does. Yeah.

0:04:21 Eli: Noah. Golfs here.

0:04:22 Thomas: Heath.

0:04:22 Tom: Oh, the four of us should go out.

0:04:23 Eli: Yes

0:04:23 Thomas: And I golfed a ton last trip. Was the most fun I've ever had in my entire life ever. It's so fun

0:04:28 Eli: The thing about me and golf is when you're a fat guy, and I think I've talked about this before, when you're a fat guy, people just start assuming you golf. They're like, well, you gotta do something, you gotta, what do you just sit at home? And I'm like, I do, I just sit home, let me leave me there, please. I've arranged so many treats in various locations around my home so I inevitably get dragged to a golf course, and it's always worse than I remember. Right in my head I'm always like trying to fix, it's very much like bad relationships, and then I'm always trying to fix the previous golf outing with this golf outings. So if there was no food and drinks, I'm all packed up for food and drinks, but then I'm there with psychopaths who spend the entire time screaming to each other, so then the next time I bring like podcasts, but at this point I'm just going to roll onto the golf course in one of those, like, bubbles they use in extreme sports.

0:04:44 Tom: Oh.

0:05:19 Thomas: Oh Yeah, here's what I don't understand. I get why I golf, which haven't golfed in a while, but when I golf it's because I am in a furious silent competition with myself to be better than the last time I golfed, which never happens. That's why I go, like, it's a it's an intense all or nothing. I practice really hard then try to be good at an impossible game. That's why I golf. I don't understand why anybody else golfs because they just like, like you said, he had the casual experience of like going once and just being mad. It's like, what do you expect, you went once, you have to like, you have to become a monk that goes up into the mountains and does nothing but eats, breathes, and sleeps golf for a year to maybe shoot, okay, like there's no, why would you just go once? What is that

0:06:07 Tom: I go just once. I go once a year. I got once a month. I'm like, I'm going to go once. Once a year for work. And it is like, for me, it's a totally Zen. I have a totally different cause I, I don't even keep track of my score. I don'T know how many times I've hit it. Like there with other people that care a lot about golf and they're there to care a Lot about golf. And I'm just like, we can skip my turn. Like, I I genuinely don't care. Like, oh, you hit a good shot, Tom. Like, yeah, did I? All right.

0:06:08 Thomas: Yeah yeah I'll

0:06:29 Eli: You say so.

0:06:30 Tom: Or like, oh. It was terrible. I'd be like, oh, yeah. Stakes could not be lower.

0:06:33 Thomas: We skip your shot off to, right to, off the commissioner of golf to explain why we skipped your turn that one time. Like that's

0:06:39 Tom: Yeah.

0:06:39 Eli: Forgive me, forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. I skipped a turn in the golf.

0:06:41 Thomas: Yeah

0:06:42 Tom: Yeah. I just think the stakes could not go down. Lower, you when I'm playing. So I'm just like, because I'm not in a, I think it makes sense if you're good, you're not going to be in a furious competition because you're going to remember what you did last time. I have literally no idea what I did last night.

0:06:48 Thomas: Let unfortunately We've had this exact conversation about golf, so I don't know how much of this will make it there, but what do you guys have another thing that you're like that with, or Or is it just that you're not like that with things?

0:07:01 Tom: Yeah.

0:07:06 Eli: I don't have a thing I'm like that with.

0:07:07 Tom: We're like furiously competitive. I'm, I

0:07:09 Thomas: Well, like, yeah, like you're intensely competitive about a thing. Or is It just you're Not like that at all? Curious.

0:07:15 Tom: I'm fairly competitive I when I did crossfit I was competitive but I wouldn't I don't know that I was fiercely competitive I don't I don't know I've never like I don't get mad if I can't do something like I'm okay with not being ABLE TO DO STUFF

0:07:26 Thomas: But wouldn't it be weird if some guy was like, hey, I'm just going to come into the CrossFit gym today just once just

0:07:32 Tom: Just one time just just

0:07:33 Thomas: For fun.

0:07:33 Eli: That guy would be dope. Get to watch him get hurt real bad.

0:07:35 Tom: Why

0:07:35 Thomas: Wouldn't you be like, why? Yeah. Yeah. They just rip all their hamstrings out. Yeah. Like, what are you? Okay. Weird. That's how I feel about the casual goal. I don't get it. It's either you do this for life.

0:07:37 Tom: Are you here like yeah yeah yeah you don't do it at all that's

0:07:48 Thomas: That's kind of how I am with all things. They're like literally I'm

0:07:49 Tom: It

0:07:50 Eli: Gotta earn Your rest by doing the golf in the right way. When

0:07:54 Thomas: Just all or nothing in general. Like I just am either I get super into something or I don't do it. You know, it's kind OF I don'T know weird.

0:08:00 Eli: Makes the Dear Old Dad bingo card, can the center square be absolutely psychotic behavior that one host doesn't know isn't normal? No, it's just, you know, I have to punish myself if I get over a 46. You guys don't punish yourself? Okay, what activities do you physically punish yourself for? Don't say nothing, because that's crazy, that's ridiculous, who gets spanks if not you?

0:08:33 Thomas: Well, transition, because no transition is necessary or possible. Have an announcement. I want to tell you all about, I have, this is a very special episode. TM, uh, the very special announcement I want to tell you is, because of the show, and exclusively because of the show and the promotional opportunity, Lydia and I are having kid number three. Yep.

0:08:52 Tom: What that's outstanding how far along is she night

0:08:54 Thomas: And, Think the patrons will vote on how far along she is. How

0:08:57 Eli: I love that.

0:08:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:08:58 Tom: Oh that's good that's good they're

0:08:59 Eli: Yes.

0:08:59 Thomas: Who's the, who the father is

0:09:00 Tom: They're choosing her they're using the baby's name and gender obviously

0:09:00 Thomas: Yeah, of course of course so There'll be an appropriate tier for that, um, look, look for that on the page. Oh, no, we. Yeah.

0:09:03 Tom: Right yeah right yeah yeah can we sell the naming rights to the middle name like For the middle name?

0:09:15 Eli: With We my baby. Nope. For

0:09:19 Tom: No, you didn't.

0:09:19 Eli: The name.

0:09:20 Tom: I absolutely would have donated because I wanted you to name your baby Max Power. I was pushing really hard.

0:09:23 Thomas: Because. Yeah.

0:09:20 Eli: Straight up name. I would have named it. Totally would have. There was a Patreon.

0:09:28 Tom: I idea how I missed it because I would have done it. I would've donated $10,000 to name your baby max power.

0:09:30 Thomas: Yeah. I would have put that in with you for sure. Yeah.

0:09:33 Eli: See?

0:09:34 Tom: God damn it.

0:09:35 Eli: Could have gone with Baby McBabyface.

0:09:36 Tom: Come on, just middle name. Can we do middle name what

0:09:38 Eli: I was going full name. Last name. First name. Whatever you want.

0:09:42 Thomas: They just didn't hit the Patreon tier.

0:09:43 Tom: Was the goal?

0:09:43 Eli: Didn't hit the goal. Didn't get the goal?

0:09:45 Tom: God damn it. Somehow I missed this. I feel bad.

0:09:47 Thomas: OK, we need to set. So. All

0:09:47 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:48 Tom: I would write a check.

0:09:49 Thomas: Right. Well, for our business call, we'll talk about what the appropriate goal might be. It's good that good that you bring that experience to bear. I think that'll that'll help.

0:09:53 Eli: Dollar amount to name Thomas's baby is. Make an offer. Where's the who's that guy over on O.A. who gives you guys a shit ton of money? Honk, chonk, barink.

0:09:58 Thomas: Yeah. Conrad Michaels.

0:10:05 Eli: Conrad Michaels, if you're listening. Conrad, there's a number, baby. There's always a number.

0:10:09 Tom: This is your chance to own a white baby me like that's

0:10:14 Thomas: No, I wanted to talk about a couple of things related to it. I know what to expect exactly, but they're just thought, you know, these are dad thoughts. I feel like if there's anything that should be on a, on a parenting show, it's

0:10:23 Eli: You know, there'S if you don't know what to expect, there' s a book for that.

0:10:25 Tom: Right.

0:10:24 Thomas: Yeah, no, thought it might be interesting to talk about maybe our experiences of having our kids, you know, and, and went into it and all that. And I, I've mentioned this, honestly, I mentioned it a couple times on shows and then cut it out, which is a, which ist a great way to fuck with yourself, by the way, if you're an an editor of your own shows is you tell a story and then you hear it and you're like, well, that sucked, cut it. And then you're, like, I don't know what I've told anybody, but I, um, Lydia and I actually had a miscarriage last year and it was, or whenever it, when the fucking time, I don't know, whenever, it was actually right when the Texas abortion bill thing happened. The one that's, like bounty hunters, like fucking Boba Fett can, like, come kill you if you get an abortion that one, like, yeah.

0:10:50 Eli: Right. Yeah. Bring You back to Texas.

0:11:10 Tom: The SB8. Yeah.

0:11:10 Thomas: Yep.

0:11:10 Eli: With your Fetus, yeah.

0:11:11 Tom: Right.

0:11:11 Thomas: And the court's like, whoa, we don't know, I, there's never been a Boba Fett law, so, I, wow, I guess they're allowed to do that, they can nothing pretty

0:11:17 Eli: Nothing In the rule book says a dog can't hunt you down kill your baby

0:11:20 Thomas: Much that was pretty much how it went and right around that time, you know, we, so we, uh, got pregnant, um, for nothing, we apparently are very good at, at, I don't know, like it's all a random crapshoot obviously, but, um, it's kind of funny that both Arlo and, uh, that pregnancy were absurdly soon before we even considered the idea that we could be pregnant, you know, it was just like, it was a comedy routine, like, I thought Lydia was fucking with me both times, like, would, it'd be to the point where she was taking pregnancy tests and not even telling me because it was silly that we, she was even bothering, you know, like that level of early

0:11:22 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:11:55 Eli: Just in the delivery room, she turns to you, okay, you're not gonna believe this, man, it's fucking crazy, you I told you not to stand so close.

0:11:59 Thomas: Yeah yeah, they're like we pulled out Phoebe, and somehow a positive pregnancy test from that birth, like, that was how it, wow, amazing, um, so the first, after Phoebe, like, Phoebe took a while, and think in retrospect maybe she had a miscarriage because, like, you know, didn't, didn't have a period for a while, kind of thing, and we weren't no because we were confused about the cycles, you know, like it's, how it's all, it's a little unclear. If you're not, and is another thing that makes it so impossible to have these stupid fucking five week bands or whatever. If you're not exactly perfectly regular and like checking and everything, you would not know. Like Eli, if you were capable of getting pregnant, I think you wouldn't know until week 35, probably same.

0:12:18 Tom: Because Also You just cannot believe your sperm isn't that potent, that's kind of what you're saying. Right. Now Like just I

0:12:22 Eli: Yeah. I Would be, I would be on that on the TLC show, I didn't know I was pregnant, and I would absolutely birth the baby just being Like, oh.

0:12:52 Thomas: I, yeah, I would just think it was like gas for for probably half, half, man, what did I ate? A lot of Taco Bell. I don't know what is going on. Just, just to do a lot of it. And, like, once we finally, you know, we're able to get pregnant with Phoebe, which, so, I could talk about with that.

It, and then we kind of snoozed on the birth control, you you know, after, because once have a baby, you, a lot of evolutionary crap that happens with this stuff, you know, and your body is pretty much like, yeah, I don't need to have another baby for a bit because I'm nursing one. But it's kind of unclear, like when that stops. And we, you know, we, we snoozed on the birth control.

And so one day when Phoebe was, youknow, a year and a, just comes down as a pregnancy test and I was like, what are you talking, like, what, what would that even be a thing that could happen, like, it wasn't even on the last thing on my mind, and that's how we had Arlo, and this time around, well, I should say the time that we, uh, eventually led to the miscarriage, we had just stopped taking the pill, literally, like, just not even a period, after taking the pill, she, I think was again, you know, taking pregnancy tests just because, you know, she's,

0:12:53 Eli: Damn. Absolute for nine and a half months for

0:12:56 Tom: Take

0:14:02 Eli: The fun of it, they're

0:14:03 Thomas: Like, like again,

0:14:03 Eli: In bulk it's Sam's Club's, why not, I do, yeah.

0:14:05 Tom: Them all the time, yeah. No, I get it, yeah.

0:14:06 Eli: Yeah

0:14:06 Thomas: I would too. Oh, if, yeah. If I were capable of getting pregnant, I would be like a nightly routine. Like I would just do it every or something, you know, I'd incorporate like brush my teeth, pee on a stick, you know, just do it. Yeah.

0:14:07 Tom: Yeah I'm

0:14:14 Eli: Take a pregnancy test

0:14:18 Tom: Always checking to see if I'm ovulating, I get it, like it's it's fine, yeah.

0:14:23 Thomas: The pee on the stick, that wasn't part of it. That was just a separate, I haven't, do you do, you guys don't have a sticky pee on? Cause you didn't shoot well enough at golf. That's not a thing. I make myself pee on a stick.

0:14:25 Eli: Yeah no that's just a different thing

0:14:30 Tom: It's your punishment stick

0:14:33 Eli: That's how you that's how you punish the clubs that failed you in the last golf round.

0:14:38 Thomas: Yeah. So I don't know. Weird. Okay. I guess I'll just pretend that's, uh, yeah.

0:14:42 Eli: Okay what do you guys on pee as a punishment, then, this is ridiculous, we have nothing in common.

0:14:44 Thomas: Oh, so it was super fast. But, um, the, so, thing I wanted to talk about is I kind, was very excited for this third kid. We've, we've decided, you just, I know if anyone could maybe tell from the show, but kids are my favorite thing in the existence of all of the world and the universe. And my life is my kids, and I love them so much that it's hard for me to not want to turn fucking Catholic and have like 80 of them. But I'm not going to do that. I'm Not going to Do It.

0:15:09 Tom: Jesus.

0:15:09 Eli: Okay. See, this, I was actually going to bring this up because you have now reached the number of kids one is allowed to have before you're just a guy with a collection, right? Because you have one kid, great, you're having kids. Two kids, yay, you keep each other company. Three kids, you fucked Arlo, that's okay, he'll understand. But like Arlo now gets no attention, no time. He's already marrying a woman named Claire and staring into the middle distance too long during Christmas. That's okay. But a fourth kid, they're Pokemon cards.

0:15:18 Thomas: Yep. Yes. Okay. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

0:15:42 Eli: Avoid the third third kid the middle one gets no attention the fourth kid no one gets any attention yep

0:15:43 Thomas: Yep. No, you're right. You're right, none. The old one, this, and I'm the child of four kids. So yeah. Or, you know, I was in that situation. The oldest one got some attention and then attention ended is what happened. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. It's I, funny that you're, you're making this point, Eli, because it's like actually probably kind of the reasoning. It's just like, how many can we have and not be fucking those people? You know? And I think we thought I thought it was two, but then I, you know, we, we just, I couldn't have had Arlo be the last baby. We both were like, are you okay with that being the last time we had a little sweet, fucking adorable, amazing baby? And we're like, no, we're not okay withthat being thelast time. So it was like, well, mathematically, I guess N plus one then, like whatever, whatever we were at was plus one. And then we'relike, I think three is the most we can do without our friends not talking to us anymore.

0:15:49 Tom: Yeah

0:15:57 Eli: Yeah

0:16:10 Tom: Well it's that's you actually hit hit on something like that I wanted to bring up with this because it's like you hear that phrase and I kind of hate it of like oh love multiplies or what it's like yeah but your fucking attention doesn't like your time and attention doesn'T after a certain point you're like I'm just tired now there's just kids and I'm tired and I don't have any more hours left I

0:16:50 Thomas: Totally. Yep.

0:16:58 Eli: You can always tell with the names right the names are the best indication because the first this is manvelina and she's named after my father who died in the wars and And this is, is this Kokachov who was named after my uncle who sent me to college and walked me through Europe. This is fucking Chris. I don't know. Whatever. This is Mike. Cause that's a name.

0:17:21 Tom: Want to ask though like thomas because I think you and I are real different on this like I felt like I was a great dad when I had one kid when I had just finn and I had just been for eight years so it was like a long time but I was fucking I was crushed I was dadding at a very high level I was crushing it then I immediately felt at least 75 less competent with the addition of the second kid like I just was like I think I'm just objectively not as good of a father not just to finn but to both of them because now I am spread so much

0:17:24 Thomas: Oh yeah yeah well

0:17:55 Tom: Thinner but

0:17:56 Thomas: It's I don't know if that's the way I put it it's like if someone said you had to run an eight minute mile I could do it if someone said well now you got to run a five minute mile I'd be like wouldn't I say like oh I'm being a worse runner like I'm the same runner it's just now you somehow have to do a a harder thing you know like I don't think you're a worse dad you know but like I

0:18:16 Tom: I mean finn gets less I mean like like like like objectively like he gets like much less attention and I think the quality of the attention he gets at least for me I'll call myself out like will say the quality of attention everybody gets is less too because I am I'm like I'm fucking beat like

0:18:18 Thomas: Just mathematically of course yeah oh yeah I I totally agree I mean I think that it's important to be like I thinkthat's the one you know one thing that I I would hope no one could ever claim about me or this show is that I'm like not being real and honest about it And like, I think this will probably maybe set off some people who have a lot of kids if they listen. But like, yeah, no, mathematically, I mean, that's going to be true. It's goingto be harder. I always said, too, the second one is not twice as hard. It's seven times as hard because it really is. It's And it's no longer. OK, what does Phoebe need? Ah, she needs a bottle. I'll I'll go warm up a bottle, you it's oh, what is Phoebe to fuck? The other one's yelling. Oh, my God, that one fell. It's dead. That one's it fell off a cliff there's

0:18:31 Tom: Yeah yes yeah

0:19:10 Eli: You get.

0:19:09 Tom: You're like fucking your bottle can wait all right I got other shit to do yeah yeah

0:19:12 Thomas: They both need 50 things at once you know it's just like the fucking x it's exponential you instead of just being a straight line of how hard it is going straight line up. It's a curve like it just goes infinite up like it's Just because they all need shit from you at the same time and so many things with kids is like all this is an emergency got to resolve this emergency when you need to resolve an emergency and there's another emergency it's really fucking hard yeah

0:19:14 Tom: Right yeah

0:19:24 Eli: Yeah.

0:19:37 Eli: Yeah. You just become a combat medic being like, yeah, man, I'll get your leg in a second. I'm fucking doing this.

0:19:43 Tom: Yeah

0:19:40 Thomas: Yeah you triage you're like yeah um how bad is that you fell over is your leg can you put it back on if you put the leg back on is it can you move it all right I'm gonna deal it sounds like you're okay I'm gonna deal with arlo

0:19:49 Eli: I could squeeze you in at one it's so and

0:19:53 Thomas: Yeah exactly

0:19:55 Tom: I and I don't want to like shit on anybody for having like I'm calling myself out like I I remember taking my kids to I took when when finn was was 10 and Eamon was, I want to say two, right around two. Took I them to Legoland on vacation. So it was just me and the two boys. And I flew to California and we went on a vacation to Legolan and we did vacation stuff.

0:19:55 Thomas: Yeah yeah

0:20:16 Eli: I left amen there at the lego I

0:20:19 Tom: And impossible for everybody to have anything approaching a good time, even on that vacation, because Finn's 10. So he wants to go do 10 -year -old stuff and Eaman's too right and you can't like get him on the ride he wants to go on a fucking 10 year old stand in a fucking two hour long you by himself unattended so it's like there was just and there's kind of like a lot of that sort of stuff when you have at least for me there was where I just felt like I was compromising so much but when I had just finn I never compromised with him at all it was so much I felt so much better about being a dad I felt like I was a way better dad and I do look sometimes I'm like man amen never really got that from me amen will never experience what it was like for

0:20:27 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah age difference matters too yeah yeah well oh I know yeah

0:21:05 Tom: Me to be his dad the same way finn did yeah

0:21:07 Thomas: It's it's it is hard to to acknowledge that you had a tough time with Arlo when he was a baby because when Arlo was born Phoebe was at the maximum cutest, most adorable phase. I mean, it was just my relationship with Phoebe at that time. There's nothing I could even imagine coming close to that because it was like one -on -one with the cutest little being that like knows just number of words, but still is a kid. So like gets them wrong and expresses herself weirdly. And it's just like just all the most adorable, sweet things. And I remember we took Arlo home he was born. And Phoebe is also just incredibly sensitive, like an incredibly sensitive kid. Um, idea where she gets it.

0:21:55 Thomas: Um. And Arlo was crying, you know, like, cause he's a fucking newborn and she lost it. And she was like, you couldn't handle it something else was crying like she was crying because something else was suffering in the house and it from then on it just set this tone of like oh boy what did we do like was this was you know did I just like ruin my relationship with my kid you know like it's hard and

0:21:55 Tom: Right yeah

0:21:55 Eli: Just

0:22:19 Tom: I remember feeling that way for sure like that's that's why I wanted to ask you about it because I yeah I was like that that's that's something I still like because amen is littler he's like he's the littlest in my house he's eight and it's restrictive in terms of where we can go and like the kinds of things we can do because the kids are such wide ranges of ages I think at least with the three that you've got they're close enough that you won't you won'T experience that sort of like age gap difficulty culty. Yeah. Yeah,

0:22:22 Thomas: Yeah yeah that helps too I think the saddest thing is with Phoebe I read to her basically basically every night and I'd read her a book and I knew everything. Like I had full track of everything she was able to do, the words she knew, the numbers she knew the colors she knew. Then And when you have two, it's just hard to keep track of that. Like I, yeah.

0:23:12 Tom: Yeah,

0:23:10 Eli: Slap a post -it note on arlo's forehead and tell him to you know feel around up there and see if he can do it till he falls asleep

0:23:13 Tom: Yeah.

0:23:16 Thomas: Let me know when you graduate son. No. Yeah. It's like, I that. I missed Miss that one -on -one, you and know, we read books together and it's still fun and it'S great. And it's adorable. And I love tracking what Arlo's learning as well, but it's, it is really different, you know, because I don't, and it''s also good though, because Phoebe teaches him all kinds of stuff and it is hilarious. One of the funniest things in this household is Phoebe will ask me something and nothing better. God, there's nothing better than when your kid starts asking you interesting questions, you know, and just, uh, did I ever tell you the one she asked? We were driving she the was looking out the window and she says, dad, how come when mountains get too far away, they turn blue. And I was just like, fuck God, that's the best. I love it. It's the Best.

0:23:36 Tom: Hmm. Right.

0:24:07 Thomas: It's The Best. How fucking cool is that? They're Like just little scientists. They're just like trying to keep track of the world, you know? And like, like what, this is weird. Why does the color, why are they blue? And I love, and you can't capture it too, unless you record it because the way they phrase things is so interesting, you cause they don't have full capabilities of their words and they, they, THEY stammer and they maybe say the wrong word first. And it's, it's just so cute. And I, you KNOW, and we do the thing, one of the things I love about Sesame Street is is the Elmo's World has a thing where they go like, what do we do when we don't know something? We look it up. And that's a really good thing to instill in kids. Although I thinkthat probably turns into, we look at what a conspiracy theorist on YouTube says. Yay.

0:24:52 Eli: We don't research laterally because that is hard everything's a product what are we being sold old the the

0:24:55 Thomas: Yeah, we an we ask an actual expert is what it could be. That would be good too.

0:25:03 Eli: First three links on google are always sponsored what does it mean when information can be bought started all the wars I don't know elmo I

0:25:09 Thomas: Yeah, totally. And that's why the mountains are blue is what I told I told her exactly that what she just said yeah the jews they made the mountains blue yeah

0:25:19 Tom: That's it yeah

0:25:19 Eli: Have have Not had this experience yet with Max, but I had it with my younger sister. She's 16 years younger than me, and one of the things that I love about the questioning age is this moment that happens where they're like, "Daddy, why does the the rain come from the sky?" And you're like, fuck yeah, I'm going to nail this. So you're like, you go to Google, right? And I'm like, oh, why does the rain come from? And the sky and you read it and you're like, well, honey, and they fucking could not give less of a shit by that boy. You turn around with your charts and graphs and they're like I'm an apple now. And you are like, Oh, okay, cool. You're an apple.

0:25:37 Thomas: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yep. You got a lab coat on, you're ready to fucking get into it with yeah you got some beakers over the bunsen burner, like ready to just fucking do some sign, I exactly right.

0:25:56 Eli: I wrote a, I wrote a short song to teach you about. Yeah,

0:26:05 Thomas: I love it, they

0:26:05 Eli: No, No. It's cool, you're doing something else now, that's fine.

0:26:08 Thomas: And Phoeba is so, Phoebe is so, again, sensitive and perceptive that she will kind of humor me. I'll get like three words into the explanation and it's obviously way too fucking complicated for her age level. I was like, oh, see the light. Oh, God. You realize how hard it is to explain a single fucking thing. Like really, what is anything on this planet? You know, like when you get right down to it. There's this thing called light and it is fucking God damn. It is waves. It is also particles, by the way. It is Waves and Particles.

0:26:33 Eli: It's also a park, it's

0:26:38 Thomas: Yeah, and like fucking there's a slot experiment, there's two, oh my God, I shouldn't go save, I'll that for when she's six. Okay, not not gonna do the double slit experiment. Yeah.

0:26:45 Eli: A classic problem of too much information, right? Because when we were kids, I mean, don't get me wrong, when you were a kid, Thomas, he was like, "Where's the rain going?" Your dad was like, "Shut up, leave me alone, go to your room back into the soundless box" with you but when when we were kids, right, I would turn to my dad who adored me and he'd be like, "Where, where does the rain go?" And you'd be like, "I don't fucking know. I don't even know a guy who does know. Ask your teacher."

0:26:54 Thomas: Wow. That was a really spot -on impression of my dad Yeah.

0:26:55 Tom: Oh, Yeah.

0:27:11 Thomas: Yep.

0:27:12 Eli: And by the time it got to teacher asking time, I'd forgotten. So it was a perfect system.

0:27:13 Tom: Oh,

0:27:12 Thomas: Yep. Or They just flat out make shit up, like my mom. Oh, my God. Bless her soul. My mom was so bad with that. She would just make, I don't know if she would make shit up or just have heard some old wives' tale at some point and would just report it as true. I really hope, the I imagine that's a really fucking sexist term these days, but like, I hope the old wives' tail disappears eventually the wake of new information, you know, like the fact that you can just fucking Google something. Because back in the day, like you say, you asked your mom, "Why is the mountain turned blue?" And there'd be some fucking, I don't know, "Because the didn't sacrifice enough virgins this month."

0:27:21 Tom: Yeah.

0:27:55 Eli: Goats,

0:27:55 Thomas: You know? Yeah, who fucking knows? They would just make up some bullshit. And you had no way. If your parent.

0:27:55 Eli: Right, yeah. And you believed it until you said it at a party in your 20s. In my case. I know I haven't told this story on the air because it's so fucking embarrassing. Have you guys heard my story about the spaghetti cannon?

0:28:04 Tom: No.

0:28:12 Thomas: Or. I don'T think so.

0:28:13 Eli: So, here's another thing for the younger members of our audience, and you guys will be able to verify this, there used to be kids' books that were full of lies. They were supposed to be just whimsical, right? They were like, oh, here's the story of the tomato potato, but when you're a kid, there's no one who walks up to you and they're like, hey, just so you know, this book is just like a humorous book, it's giving you information ironically.

And one of those books told me that spaghetti had had been invented when someone got attacked in a boat and they had to use a a machine gun to squeeze out the dough at the bad guys, and then they used the meatballs for cannonballs, right? And like, obviously in context that's ridiculous, it's obviously facetious, but the only part of it that I remembered was that there was a spaghetti gun and that was how spaghetti got invented.

And I was 22 in college and someone was like, oh, I know a really good spaghetti place. And I was like, hey, fun fact, do you know how spaghetti was invented? They fired it out of a gun. I'm sorry, I'm an idiot. I just heard the words I said. I can vote. I'm going to go crawl

0:28:13 Thomas: Oh, Oh,

0:29:14 Eli: Under the sewer.

0:29:13 Tom: I didn't make up a lot of stories, my actually did have encyclopedias in the house, my dad never tried to pretend he knew shit he didn't know, like like I was grateful, I am very grateful for that, my dad, we had encyclopedias, I don't know how fucking old they were, I don't even know how accurate they were, but like, my dad was a look it up guy. My dad, if I asked him what a word meant, he never would tell me, be like, let's look it up. Like, he absolutely did that shit, like we always looked, we looked fucking everything up.

I don't remember him ever giving me like a bullshit story or like just being like, I don't know, like we always did, he was very good about the look up stuff.

I will say, like, with my kids as they've have gotten older, if they ask me shit, like, always I'll turn to them and be like, all right, much do you actually want to know, because if you don't really want to know, I'm not going through the effort of explaining this, because if you're just going to drift off into the fucking middle distance, like, I'm, we're not doing that.

And then they'll tell me, they'll be honest, be like, yeah, I don't actually care that much, I'm like, all right, that's fine. Or they'll actually want to know, I'll be like, alright, sit down, we're going to talk, and then, like, then we'll go through it, because at this age it's like, I am not investing the the time and explanations, you guys don't listen to

0:29:25 Thomas: Yeah, that's awesome.

0:30:22 Eli: Take

0:30:22 Tom: I can't do it, yeah.

0:30:22 Eli: A number.

0:30:23 Thomas: I I have that same thing, but I, I try to just do it anyway, to a certain extent. I mean, I will quickly note that their, their eyes have glazed over and they've gone on to another thing. And like I said, Phoebe, Phooebe does, she humors me. She'll, she'll like, try to look like she's still into it for me. And I'm like, do you, um, do You understand any of that? She'll be like, uh, no.

0:30:45 Thomas: And you're like, I appreciate you trying, but the, Will say, say too, about my dad, uh, I've mentioned before, he's incredibly smart, and he wouldn't, yeah, dad was a zero bullshit person to an insane degree, and that's where I get a lot of my meanness from, and my inability to have any cognitive dissonance about anything, which you need to live as a functioning human in the world, you need a lot of cognitive disonance, um, just, uh, him, he would, he would either know it because he knew a lot, lot of shit, or he would not make something up, or he would venture a guess and be honest that it was a guess. But, uh, yeah, my mom just fucking, I don't, it's just so weird. She would just make shit up.

And I was going to say that, like, would even know something was bullshit, but there's nothing I could do about it. You know, like either you would believe a wrong thing like Eli, which that would happen. Or my mom would say something in five seconds in, if I was like older and kind of learn more, I'd be like, oh, this is fucking stupid. Whatever. This is wrong. Whatever this is, is wrong, but like, there's no thing I could do about it.

I could, there wasn't like a Google that I could just be, be like, what's the actual right answer, you know, I just have to be like, well, I guess I don't get to know that, I'll just not know what that was. All right.

But, uh, I started this because one of my favorite, uh, this phenomena is, uh, Phoebe asking me something, and it'll, sometimes it won't be a deep scientific question, it will be like, how does this fucking toy work, or something, you know, like, oh, you gotta twist this knob and do this fucking dial over whatever. And then she'll go, go over to Arlo and be like, Arlo. And I love to, another funny thing about kids, they, everything is screaming. There's no, there

0:30:45 Tom: Oh,

0:30:47 Eli: Cool. Good talk.

0:30:59 Tom: My God, yes.

0:32:13 Thomas: Is no fucking volume. That's not screaming at any time ever. And so she, Arla, and we've just, our house is filled with that all day. Buddy, buddy. Just she's four, four inches away from him. Buddy. Just yelling all day and, uh, but I love it too. Too, when she, I love it when she does this, which is I explain how the thing works and she goes over and like delivers the same lecture, but as though she's the one who knew it as she explained.

0:32:13 Eli: Yep.

0:32:13 Tom: Yes.

0:32:41 Thomas: Arlo, yes, here's how this works.

0:32:40 Eli: All right. I did the work on this.

0:32:41 Tom: I just got my PhD and how this fucking toy works. Sit down, I'm about to learn, you but

0:32:44 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. You got to do this first, and then do, and see, and she also has taken to kind, my style of teaching, a little bit. So she'll be in like Socratic dialogue with her younger idiot that can't understand anything she's saying, you know, she'll be like, Arlo, so what do you think this does? See, it does the, it is so fucking hilarious, god, it is

0:33:07 Tom: That's also combined with your, your competitive needs, so she gets, he gets it wrong, she's slapping him across the face, think damn it, think, damn it

0:33:08 Thomas: Um oh

0:33:13 Eli: All right, let's find you a stick to pee on for punishment

0:33:17 Thomas: Yeah but, I guess, but I was offering that as like, it, it does make up for a lot of it, like, he is getting a lot, and often it's just her bossing him around all fucking day, but he's also getting a lot from that constant interaction. And again, if If your age gaps are appropriate, your kid can give your other kid attention all fucking day. You know, that was the other side of, we've talked about this, how you just can't give your kid enough attention. Like they just want it all times forever, every hour. Well, good thing is their sibling is like that also. And they can apply that to each other. You

0:33:45 Tom: Yeah that, that is huge and, like, it, that's massive over at our house, because I don't have to be playmate anymore, that's something I don't, don't miss, because you can't sustain it forever, you just can't, like, when I, when, when it was just Finn, I was his constant, instant companion because he didn't have another companion, and now that, now there's four kids in the house, like, don't really need us anymore, like, we're just there to make I think I'm there to buy groceries and keep the fucking lights on that's it, that's 100 like, I'm just, I'm just there to provide like the food, the shelter, like the rudiments of life itself, other than that I, you know, I don't have really a purpose or a reason to be any longer

0:33:56 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

0:34:17 Eli: Just just keep the pizza bagels coming guys, I meant to end that on such a depressing note.

0:34:37 Tom: No, I totally did. Yeah, that's it. That's it, it's all over, Eli.

0:34:39 Thomas: No, we're, yeah. No, we were useless to our kids at a certain age and we're no longer.

0:34:43 Eli: I hurt myself today, day

0:34:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:34:47 Tom: I just listen to Cats in the Cradle and cry every morning for like three hours. I don't know about you guys. That's just fatherhood

0:34:49 Eli: Yeah.

0:34:52 Thomas: But you reversed the lyrics cause your kid won't play with you. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah, but I, in the midst of all this, I stumbled on, I guess this might feel like an Oprah-esque life lesson or something, but like, I don't know, I wanted to share it cause I did think it was interesting. Um, know. Do you guys remember that first ultrasound that you got to see of your kid? Oh, I, well, you know, back, back in Tom's day, they probably didn't have that technology.

0:35:11 Eli: I still have it, yeah.

0:35:14 Tom: Now. I don'T. They did it on my Etch -A -Sketch 15 years ago. It was Etch a Sketch.

0:35:19 Thomas: Yeah.

0:35:18 Eli: To be fair, they just just took took a Polaroid of your wife's stomach and hoped the radiation did the flipping

0:35:24 Thomas: Like imagine a baby in there. Probably. I don't know. Yeah, for us, that that, experience of when we finally got pregnant with Phoebe and then we got, went and got that that first ultrasound and just seeing that little thing in there, you know, it's just, it was truly a joyous thing. And I think I didn't realize how important that was and how, what a, what a just a, for me, just like a, an emotional experience that was maybe until this happened because we went to do that. And of course we did that for Arlo as well. And it was absolutely just as meaningful and a hundred percent this totally as impactful with Arlo. If you're you're listening, buddy.

0:35:59 Thomas: I love you. It was great. It's a hundred percent the best. But the third one and your, your fetus actually did a backflip here and waved. Yeah, I don't care. It's fine. Whatever. We've seen it before. But with the third one, we went in for that ultrasound, that first one. And when, you know, there wasn't a heartbeat formed, you know, and that was, you know, it was, it was hard. It was, the OBGYN or whatever, the doctor who we loved. And it's really helped to have a, a super caring doctor, you that experience.

And she, you know, she was like, well, it, it doesn't seem to have formed for whatever reason, you know, it's a, it was a, miss, you know, I didn't, it didn't form.

And I guess I didn' didn't realize at the time when you, when you have two kids already and you have a miscarriage, like, honestly, it just, again, being real and honest on this show, I can't speak for Lydia, obviously, but if that had been try number one, I think I would have been inconsolable for two months. Like I would've not gotten out of bed probably. You know, when. Have a miscarrage and you also have two critters that are needing you every second of the day, it was was a little easier, you know, it was

0:35:59 Eli: Through the ultrasounds, uh -huh, uh-uh, uh-ha.

0:37:09 Tom: Yeah.

0:37:09 Thomas: A little, a little easier to deal with, but I didn't notice maybe how much it affected me until we went in for this one, because we we, go in that doctor's room, same room, you know? Same doctor, not, not too much later on, you know maybe, I don't know, five, six months it took to go through the whole miscarriage and then, you get reset again, and we were waiting for that first ultrasound, sound.

And I noticed that I could not, I mentally could not get my hopes up. Like I just, I was in there and I was like, there's no baby in here. There's, you know, and I even, and II hope that this, was okay with this, but I, you Know, like get, I imagine the three of us are kind of the same.

I had to use humor to kind of deal with it, you And I kind of joking with my brother, I was like, oh, we have the miscarriage appointment today. Like we get to go, we get to go see, have the doctor tell us how much miscarriages it is and where, you know, what would the gender of the miscarriage and the, all that. And cause I, you know, it's the only way I could deal with it, is you making those jokes. And, and I, I imagine you guys are like me too, that there is a joy in that part of life too.

You know, the joy of with someone you're super close with, like my brother being able to make those jokes that are just so fucking, you you know, like they're just so such bummers. I would, I don't, I would never make that to another person who, you know like that was not deeply enmeshed in our humor and our, you family and situation.

But that was how I, and I didn't realize how much I was coping with that, you we go there and I'm just, I am just ready. Like I'm ready for the scan to just make a sound in a video game. Like, like just,

0:37:58 Eli: Yeah. Exactly.

0:38:45 Thomas: It's yeah.

0:38:45 Eli: For her to hand you something out of the, the lower shelf of prizes. I'm sorry. Here you go, you can pick anything below the clowns.

0:38:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, are like your balls suck, they don't work anymore or

0:38:52 Eli: Yeah, I

0:38:52 Thomas: Something you know, just like fucking something awful, and I could not, and I just noticed myself in that moment, I couldn't, I could not bear to for one second have that hope of like, I can't wait to see our little baby. I couldn't, I just was there like, all right, just fucking, all right, here we go, do, tell me, tell me, you know, fucking the miscarriage. And then there's... there's a beautiful, healthy baby in there. And I guess the, like, again, it's a little, I guess it's a little corny or Oprah -esque or something, but I did, after that appointment, we were driving home. I was like, man, I really, I really kind of ruined that experience for myself by being so scared of being hurt again, you know? And it's, I don't know. I just, it was was interesting. And I think it's interesting to think about, you

0:39:38 Eli: The joy we deny ourselves with fear is a very real thing. Um, a pretty bad postpartum after Max was born. So, first of all, pre-Max being born, I went through the exact same thing. So much so that, like, it was like six weeks after you're quote-unquote allowed to tell people. And I was still like, I don't think we should, I'm not ready. I remember that I kept the pregnancy test for Max on the sink in the bathroom for like nine, someone came and visited and was like, is this a pregnancy test? And I Was like, don't touch it. It's still, right, exactly. I kept it for so, and I just wouldn't tell anybody for so long. And then when Max was born, I had, you really, know, really terrible postpartum anxiety and fear. And one of the things that a therapist that I worked through that with at the time told me is that, like, fear will kill the good of the experience.

0:39:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:13 Thomas: Max is three. Yeah.

0:40:32 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, it really made me sad in retrospect, you know, but like, I think it, it also helps me be prepared going forward. You know, I want to make sure that like with this new baby, that that isn't how I do things and that, you I think it's important. It's again, it's so corny, but like you really do have to let yourself be able to be hurt to to really have the joy in life. Like you just do.

0:40:41 Eli: Right.

0:40:58 Eli: So funny. I was listening to you before explain, like. Do we want this to be the last time we have a little baby? And I love that. I really do. I don't want to be like ironic or shit on that. But me and Anna had the exact fucking opposite experience. And look, Anna also had a very difficult pregnancy. Like she was a fucking champ, but every every pregnancy book was a fuckin liar when it came to my wife.

They were like, the post-partum sickness is for the first six weeks. I just remember at one point it being like, you'll notice you have more energy now and your hair will become lush and shiny. And my poor, beautiful bride is unable to ride in a car for six minutes without vomiting against the windows, and she's just like, when is my hair gonna get lush and fucking shiny? And then the delivery was difficult and an unexpected C-section.

I mean, I had to roll the scalpels away from her so she didn't take my balls off in the operating room. She was so, we were so fucking done at one, man. The joke I make, and probably made it on this show, is that if Anna could have rolled off the operating table and rolled me on for a vasectomy, she would have. Right, would've been like, come on, you guys are all in the gowns and shit, just do them real quick before we go. Absolutely.

0:41:49 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:07 Thomas: Glad you said that because one of my other feelings with how just important my kids have been to me, like just, so glad we're doing this show, Eli. I will never forget, even though it was in the middle of a joke, you, that in real time, I just recently edited, you you said like, I Yeah. Max, you you know love because somebody touched your dick or something. And I, you're like, I have opened a ballroom in my heart that is only filled with you. And it's so true. Like I, you were in the Middle of a Joke premise and yet a hundred percent truth. Like is there's a thing in me that is not, that was not there before.

0:42:39 Tom: Yeah.

0:42:40 Thomas: And it is that my love for this child and that, I know there are a lot of people who take that in, in this world and in our country and take that and be like, and therefore you all want this too. You all want it. Have your kids. When are you going to have kids? Have kids, have kids. And I have the exact opposite reaction. My reaction is this thing is so, so fucking important to me that only somebody who absolutely wants to do this and wants a kid or another kid and has full control over that, that's the only person who should have to have a kid, you know, like I couldn't feel, people, people often, I think, that my enthusiasm for kids is going to translate to me being like, have kids, you should have kids. You should, it's couldn't be more opposite. It, you like want kids, have kids. They're the best thing in the fucking world to me, but because it's so important, I would never encourage someone to take on this horrible emotional burden if you

0:42:40 Tom: That's true. Yeah.

0:42:41 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:43:37 Thomas: Didn't want to like Oh my God, can you imagine

0:43:38 Eli: The The The example I always use is, I enjoyed my wedding. I think someone else being forced to do my wedding would have been a bad time. Right? If you just woke up and they were rolling you up the aisle towards my wife, I don't think you'd be like, I really liked the ukulele vows. Those were naive. Right, and that's that's how I feel about having kids, is like, yeah, it's fucking awesome if you want to do it, and the bastardization of that that comes with forced pregnancy and the anti-choice viewpoint and stuff is just, it's it's revolting to any parent who knows what a wonderful and special experience being a parent is.

0:43:47 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:44:03 Tom: Yeah.

0:44:17 Tom: Yeah, to speak to it, like, I had a real different experience. Like, like, guys, both intended to have kids, like, you guys both really wanted to have kids. And my, both of my kids were very much a surprise, and they were very much unplanned.

And I remember many times throughout the course of the pregnancy thinking to myself, and I did all the things you're supposed to do, like I went to all the, I went all the classes, I read all the books, I did, I, I did a lot of things I did, and I remember all the stuff, and I'll be blunt, I didn't feel shit.

And I remember the whole time being like, all right, I just, I need to, this, this is not for me, and that, that when this kid comes out, I feel something, but right now throughout the course of pregnancy I'm just like, I'm here in support mode, I'm here in supportive in mode, but I felt no connection whatsoever to that pregnancy. I pretended I did. I did all the things you're supposed to do.

I laughed when you're supposed to laugh, I, you're supposed to smile, I bought all this stuff. But I, like, the whole time I'm like, when the fuck am I gonna feel something?

0:45:19 Tom: I don't feel anything, and I was worried, I was really worried that like this kid's gonna be born and I'm not gonna feel shit for this kid, because I gotta, like, when I meet somebody else's kid, I'm in love with somebody else kid, and I was really fucking worried, like really worried, I was like, I don't, what if I'm the guy that doesn't love his own fucking kids. And I was worried about that the entire time, like, the very moment that I held my kid until like until maybe a little before that, like, through, through the birth process itself, I started to start to get like, okay, like, there's a reality to this that has a physicality that I now intersect with.

But because I, like, having kids was something I did not want, having kids was not something I was excited about, it wasn't something I was trying to accomplish, I was not ever in that mindset or that, like, my heart wasn't there. It really wasn't until like the day that Finn was born, and then immediately, that feeling that you described, Eli, immediately I was like, I'm just a different person now, holy mother of God, I am just a difference person now. But like, to go to your point, because I think it's really well stated, Thomas, I don't think there's a guarantee that that happens. I

0:45:18 Eli: Mm -hmm. Yeah.

0:45:48 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah.

0:46:37 Tom: Don't think there's a guarantee that that happens with every person. I don't think THERE'SA GUARANTIE that THATHAPPENSWITHEVERYKID that every person has, like, am I think really lucky that all the hormones and shit that are, are supposed to kick in, that tell you that you love this kid, kicked in, right, the nature and biology, they all did their job, and I was flooded with the right hormones, and that oxytocin and all that good stuff hit me like a ton of bricks, and I was like, I will literally rip the world in half if it makes you smile just a little bit, cool, I got that, but there's no guarantee that that happens, and I think we gotta like respect the fuck out of people who say, I'm worried that might not happen for me, that's not something I want, cool, that's something I won't, again, you know, I'll like, there are people that never feel bonded to their kids, I think it's great that all three of us did, I, such a fucking mistake to assume that that is going to happen. You hear, hear people say, when, when you, when it happens to you, you'll feel different, when it happens to, you'll feel different

0:47:16 Thomas: Which

0:47:40 Tom: It did

0:47:41 Eli: And

0:47:40 Thomas: I mean it like you said, I mean, odds are, yeah, yeah.

0:47:42 Tom: It was for me, but it's not a fucking guarantee, that's the thing, like, because and a half months in, I didn't feel shit. I was like, like, you guys were like, oh my god, what if we lose this, if, if, if had miscarried, I would have been comforting, but I would not have felt a sense of loss at all, because I didn't have a sense, I had zero sense of real, real connection to the idea of, like, being, being a dad was something that happened in a handful of hours. I was transformed. Like, you guys use like, Thomas, and I think your language belies this, it's really common language that I have mixed feelings about. Like, you use language like, we are pregnant. A lot of people use that language. And I have real mixed feelings about that language, because I never felt like, I'm not fucking pregnant. Like I'm

0:47:44 Thomas: Right. Well,

0:48:26 Eli: It's

0:48:26 Tom: Not sick, I'm not throwing up, my hair isn't falling out, like, it's really common, so I don't want to like call you out. Yeah.

0:48:27 Thomas: Yeah. No, I get it. And I actually don't know how I feel about it either. But it was Because of the sort of that that particular joint experience, you of trying and and, I agree. And it is different. Like nowhere near the when you're not the person bearing the It just isn't. And I don't think it is. Yeah.

0:48:36 Tom: Right. Yeah.

0:48:50 Tom: It Yeah.

0:48:51 Eli: I'm really glad that you pointed that thing out about the the different times that those feelings set in, Tom, because I actually had a very different experience, which is that I was all love and excitement throughout the pregnancy. My son was born, oh my gosh, I'm so excited to see him. And then I didn't feel a connection for a while, while he was just really, really, really young in that first three months, the newborn forest. And I thought something was wrong with me. I thought that that's why I started getting into therapy. And when I went through like a serious depressive period, and that's a whole, Eli's postpartum depression is a whole episode that I will not bring us into now.

But, but then as my son got older and older, that connection grew and grew and Drew, but man, do I wish someone had told me that that connection sometimes takes a second to grow and that that timing is different for everybody, because I'll tell you, in month two, when I was just exactly what you said, Tom, I thought I had made a mistake, I thought the kids were not for me, I thought that I had ruined my life. And now, of course, I look back and I'm like, it's the best party ever, motherfucker, strap

0:49:12 Tom: Oh.

0:49:30 Thomas: It

0:49:36 Tom: I know, yeah.

0:49:55 Eli: In. But, like, no, especially, dads do not talk to dads enough about, like, hey, these hard times again, for me, these hard times right here at the beginning, or these hard times during the pregnancy, you might not feel that connection yet, that's okay, that doesn't mean you won't love your kid, that doesn't make you a bad parent.

0:49:55 Thomas: Especially

0:50:14 Tom: Man, yeah.

0:50:13 Thomas: Depends on the baby because like, and I will say I am lucky enough that like, I just, those chemicals kicked in. I can relate a little bit. And I've said this before, Tom, because before the baby was born, before Phoebe was born entirely, entirely, I even remember exactly where I was when I was telling Lydia about this. I was like, yeah, I am so excited. And it may have even been before we're pregnant. I said it again before she was pregnant.

0:50:14 Eli: Yeah.

0:50:36 Thomas: But remember saying, I So excited to have an adult kid. Like I'm so excited to have a person kid, you know, or whatever, like, and have a relationship. And I, I was 0 % for the baby phase. I just did. I Was like, that doesn't seem like, like I want, I want a person. I want You know, have somebody who already has all their like and like independence and, you know, I want to I can't wait for that phase of it. And then once the baby was born, that was couldn't have been more opposite. Like now I am I am as much of a like I'm just a mom. Like I just love I

0:50:36 Tom: I Don't mean to police you that way.

0:51:10 Tom: Yeah.

0:51:10 Thomas: Love babies. Like I can'T I can 'T help it. And it really did kick in. But I will say that it depends on the baby because it's just a human fact that like with Arlo, I've If you have a baby who has difficulties, who has colicky or whatever, for long time, Arlo could be held by Lydia, be breastfed by Lydia, and anything else was hell. Like if if Yeah, if if I held him, he yeah, he just yelled at me and hated me. And it is very difficult, even for fucking me, who is like, in terms of the brain chemicals kicking in, I'm like the Michael Jordan of brain chemicals kick in, I even, I was like, I don't think this kid likes me, it's not to feel that way, you're like, well, I try to hold him and he screams, and kids' screams are designed to fucking shatter our hearts into a thousand pieces.

0:51:26 Tom: Yep, oh yeah, oh.

0:51:36 Tom: But Yeah, man. 14 months. With amen, man, 14 month, I didn't hold him. Yep.

0:52:05 Tom: Yeah.

0:52:05 Eli: Right. Yeah.

0:52:05 Thomas: And if you're someone with a with any sort of mental health issues, they're designed to make you fucking have a panic attack and let go. And it would just, he would just scream at me, and I, it didn't have that same relationship, but it, but it does, the you know, it can develop over time, like you say, I mean, it, once I was able to be a little bit more for him, like I was of more use to him, and I cannot tell you how fucking amazing my relationship with Arlo feels now, I went from feeling like I wasn't even his dad because of that, like I was just so worried that I wasn't connecting to him, too he is my fucking little buddy, like I can't even explain how sweet he is and how, how good the relationship is.

0:52:06 Eli: Yeah.

0:52:16 Tom: Yeah.

0:52:46 Tom: I, I want to add to that, just so people hear it from another voice too, cuz I think it is important, I think dads don't talk about this, and I think there's a lot of expectation that's not, it's just not true, it's not right, you know, it's, it's not out there. And, like, Eamon was six weeks early. So, like, the day he was born was a scary day. It was not a joyful day. Uh, it was an emergency, and it was like, you know, come leave work right now and get to the hospital, and like, and like, fuck, okay. And, you know, it's, and so everything about that experience was fraught, and, uh, one to step last.

And then he was so fucking colicky, I had the same experience, Thomas, without exaggeration, I didn't hold him while he was awake for 14 months, he finally let me hold him when he was awake at 14 months, and it was just like really tough to feel any real bond or connection with him, really, for a long time.

Then, like, he did let me, you know, connect with him and bond with him, then, you know, he and I started to have some slivers of those, like, bonding moments where they, like, fall asleep on your chest, and, like, you know, they like come to, and like

0:53:04 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

0:53:51 Tom: Toddle over and all that stuff. But it bond with Eamon was not instantaneous, the the way that it was with Finn, it wasn't like the minute he was born he was swarmed with doctors and nurses who whisked him off to a NICU, and like, I'm fucking biting my nails, and then you're sitting in the NICU and it's like, like, all these, like, tragically interventionally required children are all around you, and you're just like, fuck, everything about this is just hitting my fear your center, it's not hitting any of your like bonding center whatsoever, at least not for me, I know it'snot for everybody's experience, but I, I think it's important to say it, it took about two years for me to really feel real connected to Amen, like, real connected to him.

0:54:07 Thomas: Yeah,

0:54:32 Tom: Maybe a little longer.

0:54:30 Eli: Yeah. I In those first three months, I remember I used to, like, secretly Google, I regret having children, children, all the time, like constantly, because I just wanted anyone, anywhere to be like, aha, but the secret is you say mashed potatoes under your breath three times and then the love courseth into your toes. And I, I remember I was on the, and you'll love your baby by tomorrow. And I wasn't until, and again, I'm so grateful I have the partner that I do because Anna is, because Anna knows me better than anybody in the world. And I'm very, very good at hiding how I feel because I'm always sad. So Anna is the only person who sees through that. And she was like, hey man, you okay? And I was like I don't think so.

0:54:50 Thomas: Yeah, my mom with an old wife, so you mix vinegar three drops of vinegar with an egg yolk, yeah, yeah,

0:55:22 Tom: Right,

0:55:22 Eli: You know, and that's a huge moment. It's so hard for dads to have with their partners because everything is postpartum depression for moms, postpartum depression for women. And that's all real. And of course their bodies are going through so much that for you to be like, I'm sad and I don't know that I like this baby. It's also guilty too, because you're like, Ah, fuck, they're trying to, she's trying to learn how to climb stairs again because Big Chungus ripped my wife in half, and I've got to be like, I'm not so sure I'm happy, right? So there's that guilt as well. But, again, I'm so lucky to have Anna, because she saw what was going on with me, and she saw that I needed help, professional help from a doctor, which I got.

And that's also a very sensitive subject, because I deal with my mental illness, and like, I won, so the the notion of having to go back to therapy, the notion of having two switch around or up meds, all that stuff was so scary to me because I've spent so long, you know, winning the game of mental illness, controlling the mental illness, and I just wish, I wish on any one of those posts someone had said, hey, it's sometimes it just takes some time, and it's okay, and you're not a bad parent, and you may feel that connection now, you, you may feel it later, because so much, and again, like this, I don't want to open up this can of worms, but the internet is so full, there's no, no one goes, hey, you don't need to hear this opinion.

0:55:31 Thomas: Yeah, what?

0:56:44 Thomas: Do we, do when we not sure we've wanted to have children, we look it up

0:56:47 Eli: I look at, uh, so I would find these posts on Reddit that were like, I've been a mother for 47 years, I never loved my children, every day is a waking hell. Hi, Eli, this is you, I'm for you from the future, and I'm in a time machine. And, like, not to shit on that person's experience, but the internet should not have shown, I didn't need that, I did not need the internet to be like, hey, you want to see this, I was like, no, internet, I need you to show me. And it's so funny, the the reason, aside from Anna's intervention that really helped, is I looked up the symptoms of postpartum depression, and I was like, oh, I have postpartum depression, yeah.

0:56:50 Thomas: Oh,

0:57:11 Tom: I

0:57:29 Thomas: And is that actually, like, a diagnosis they will give? Uh, now, I actually don't know anything about that.

0:57:33 Eli: Absolutely yeah No. Men men gonna get it as well.

0:57:34 Thomas: Oh, okay, um,

0:57:35 Tom: Didn't know that, yeah.

0:57:35 Eli: Yeah

0:57:36 Thomas: That that was, I'm really glad we had that discussion, cause if that could have helped you guys, you know, like, maybe this will help the another dad and listening, or another parent listening. Um, thing I wanted to leave you guys with, uh, of my, another, I say this all the time, I shouldn't even say this phrase, another of the best things ever in my life about kids is, uh, okay, so I, I asked Phoebe when we learned about the new baby, I asked her what should name it. And there's the,

0:58:03 Tom: She a patron, because I think that's if she's not a patron,

0:58:04 Eli: Yeah exactly.

0:58:04 Thomas: Yeah, it's true. I did. I was like, get out your wallet, you know. And the best thing about, oh my God, I love this about kids is when they're in that phase where they can talk, but they just don't have all the internalized rules about language. And there's a key phase between like, I don't know, maybe two to like four, maybe four and a half, five, who knows where you ask them to make up a name. And it's so fucking funny because they don't have the logic of names. Like we have all these things that we've heard all our lives of like, yeah, that's a name and that's not a name, roughly speaking, you know? And, I've done that with like, I try to get VB to name stuff whenever, like dolls, you you know, little bears, whatever. I always try to get a name out of her because it's only happened like five times. It wasn't fucking worth it. And so, uh, I, I we asked her for which we should name the baby. And she said, if it's a boy, scombert,

0:58:06 Eli: Love it, Scombert.

0:59:04 Tom: Scomber.

0:59:04 Thomas: Scombart.

0:59:04 Tom: I sold.

0:59:05 Thomas: And if it is a girl,

0:59:04 Eli: Yes, shine if you don't name your child Scomber.

0:59:08 Tom: Absolutely sold.

0:59:11 Thomas: Chine, chine.

0:59:12 Eli: Chine heart.

0:59:12 Thomas: Yeah. So, uh, I thought it would be fun, you know, like retweet for Scomber and like for Chine, you know, like that, share this episode, post, you know, we'll, we'll count them up. RT for Scumbag? Oh.

0:59:28 Eli: For Chine, follow.

0:59:29 Thomas: So weird.

0:59:31 Eli: For. Scompert Chine. Hyphenate, it's a hyphenat name, like.

0:59:35 Tom: That's it, that's the name, I mean, you. Can't.

0:59:37 Eli: Yeah. We're.

0:59:38 Tom: I mean, why would you ask her if.

0:59:39 Thomas: It's. Got.

0:59:39 Eli: Locked.

0:59:39 Tom: You're. Not.

0:59:39 Thomas: To. Be the.

0:59:39 Tom: Going.

0:59:39 Thomas: Middle.

0:59:39 Tom: To respect.

0:59:40 Thomas: Name.

0:59:40 Tom: Her. Wishes.

0:59:40 Thomas: Yeah. At. The very least, the middle thing. Yeah.

0:59:40 Tom: Oh.

0:59:49 Eli: In. All. Before we go, important question, submitted, by the way, by none other than April Poff, our favorite listener. What should you do if your kid drinks a bottle of disappearing ink? You go to the ER and hope you get scene.

1:00:04 Tom: You.

1:00:06 Eli: Squinting.

1:00:09 Thomas: Oh, good stuff, uh.

1:00:11 Eli: Now, uh.

1:00:12 Thomas: That is going to do it for this episode. Forgive. This week in the bonus story, if you are listening to the Patreon version right now, we'd be going into a really funny story about Eli and Max on a road trip. Max's perfect comedy timing. It's a great one. You shouldn't miss it. Go hop on patreon.com/Dear Old Dads. Week's episode early, which is, I know I say this all the time, but I've been waiting for this one for a while. It is on masculinity, and there a healthy masculinity? Does that concept mean anything? It is such a good conversation. You don't want to miss it. Even if you can't become a patron, that's totally okay. Maybe, maybe you could share the show with somebody. And can't wait for next week. We'll see you then.

1:00:58 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.