SIO316: Spooktacular October Patreon QnA!

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:12 Thomas: And welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 316 and it is our, you're not going to believe this Lindsey, you are not going to believe, this is our seventh of these monthly Q&As. That means the first one was in 1984. That's how long ago, if you do the math.

0:00:17 Lindsey: What? No. That's impossible. Yeah, no. No one was alive then.

0:00:29 Thomas: Seven months ago is that long ago. How you doing?

0:00:32 Lindsey: Absolutely. Spooktacular.

0:00:35 Thomas: Yeah, are you spooky? I don't Have any, here's the problem. I want to go to people's, I've been invited to two, I'm gonna brag a bit, two Halloween parties, one by neighbors that we, I don't know, because we just moved in, they like left a note, like, "Hey, new neighbors, come over to our party." Another by an actual friend. And for both of them I'm like, yeah, in theory I would love to go do that. However, I would have to have a fucking costume, and I don't, I don't have anything, so I'm not like, like, so it's, it's just me. Like, I don't have a fake thing that I can wear that I keep around. I don't know. I guess I

0:00:36 Lindsey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No.

0:00:47 Lindsey: Oh, my.

0:01:19 Lindsey: Yeah...

0:01:19 Thomas: Wish I did, but, oh, that's good. I do need, yeah. I mean, I would need it in like the next few minutes here, but I do need advice on costumes that aren't anything like that. You just, you know, like, oh you're just a guy or something. I don't know.

0:01:19 Lindsey: I figured out that I have the entire costume for Bad Janet, so that's what I'm gonna be. I'm very excited. Yeah?

0:01:36 Lindsey: Hmm. You could be Biden.

0:01:40 Thomas: Yeah. I don't even, I don't have the aviators on me. I don't think. Yeah.

0:01:46 Lindsey: That I don't know.

0:01:47 Thomas: Like it's such a weird thought process where I'm like, I'd love to go to this gathering and I'm like, oh, I need, if I need a disguise or whatever you guys do, I just, and then I, then my thought process, what am I gonna go do, like go to a store or something, I don't understand, I get if it was a kid, then you get just a piece of shit like thing that comes in the plastic, you know, that's nothing and that's fine because it's a kid, but for me it's like, what am I going to get? There's, I don't understand, how do adults do it? I would have to think way ahead and I don't do that. And also we just move. So everything's in boxes.

0:02:03 Lindsey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right.

0:02:20 Thomas: It's just, it's disaster. I I'll put a box around me. No, the other thing is I need a costume that, that is no imposition on my physical person. You know, I can't, I think it was in some show or movie or something, but it is a really classic thing, like in college or whatever, when you'd go to the like Halloween party and you know, like the sexy Halloween party, but you wear the way too involved costume. That's like, you got boxes all over you and stuff. It's like it's really it's not it's conducive to what you're trying to accomplish there.

0:02:32 Lindsey: Yeah?

0:02:53 Lindsey: No.

0:02:53 Thomas: You know, that kind of thing. You

0:02:54 Lindsey: No, it's really not. I wish I could help you here. I've got nothing. I don't know.

0:02:58 Thomas: Maybe I'll strap some of this foam to me that's not up in my studio and I'll be bad sound, nothing spookier than bad sound quality, and all Right, let's get to our spooktacular questions. I think we, we're gonna be well, well and spooked, I think. There's a lot of them. No tim Tin Cup Whiskey asks, "What has been your spookiest or most supernatural appearing appearance in your life?" A moment of unexpected or unknown where your hair stood up, your stomach dropped, or it could be a moment of unexplained weirdness, like how a drove of feral pigs ravaged Thomas's family home. That did happen. That DID happen.

0:03:04 Lindsey: Oh, yeah. Wow.

0:03:36 Thomas: All right, you start us off, because mine's the pigs.

0:03:38 Lindsey: Yeah I don t. I could not retrieve a moment where it like was actually seriously scary and seems supernatural, but I do have a lot of moments that are more on par with like, the you know, the ghost moving the toothbrush kind of thing, um, I've got yeah, they do, I, they're really into or they love it, right? My memory of wasn't it, that the, the ghost put the, the toothpaste on the toothbrush, I think that was it, um, which was, was great, um, yeah, so I've had a few things like that, like I remember my mom and I were, were like reading in the living room or something and we heard a glass break, like very loudly and distinctly, and could not find anything in the house that had made the sound so yeah, it's ghosts, um,

0:03:39 Thomas: Oh yeah, they love to do that. They hate oral health. Ghosts. Or they love it, yeah, yeah, that's interesting it's probably ghost then

0:04:25 Lindsey: Yeah, probably goes, and then there was another time that I kept finding quarters in my room, and like you know, we didn't have a lot of spending money as a kid, so it's not like I would just leave quarters around, but I found like $10 worth of quarters over the course of like two weeks.

0:04:25 Thomas: Wow, what

0:04:41 Lindsey: And I, yeah, it's gotta be ghosts, right? Like I,

0:04:38 Thomas: The hell that's weird Yeah. Or like some creepy somebody, I don't know, were they were they in a trail leading you to an unmarked van but

0:04:49 Lindsey: I did a, you know, now that you mention it, um, no, like I, mm

0:04:54 Thomas: You always like quit Before you got there, so the pedophiles, like, "God, all right, get more quarters. Got to go to laundromat."

0:05:02 Lindsey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That must've been it. I don't know. It could have been my, my older brother messing with me or something. I'm not sure, but I never figured out.

0:05:06 Thomas: Yeah. There's got to be cheaper ways to mess with your siblings, though. I would never, you know, like that's precious money as a kid. I don't didn't give anybody money as it goes. You know, you'd fight somebody for like a dime.

0:05:16 Lindsey: He, he was, Yeah. Exactly. Exactly, but they were, uh, significantly older than me, so they would have had jobs by the time this happened, but anyway.

0:05:19 Thomas: Oh, OK. That's interesting.

0:05:27 Lindsey: Yeah, it was weird, so.

0:05:29 Thomas: I can't really think of anything. There was a time that a bunch feral pigs did literally, like, so again we live in the country, but there weren't teams of wild boars ever, there was one time, so we just, some pigs, just I don't, not like farm pigs, like pink babe pig in the city pigs, but not like, I don't think they were like full -on warthogs, I don't know, it's been 20 years, it's hard to remember, but what I remember that was funny about is, A, they came in and they just, they just demolish everything. Like they chew up the ground and dig holes with their snouts and stuff. And you wouldn't believe it. Like, and is, we don't have nice soft ground where I'm from. It's like clay. It's awful. And yet still they just dug through it. And I remember the funny part, the only reason I retell the story that I think we told on Shoosh at some point is, the funny part was, I think my mom called like animal control or something.

And the guy came and I, what I loved was he came with a truck, you know, they got the truck with the thing on the back, you know, they would put a thing in, and just the look of bemusement of, like, oh, this is, like, the pigs were the size of the truck. Like, I can't even, I mean, not literally, but close. He was, it was, the feeling

0:05:29 Lindsey: Wow. Geez. Wow.

0:06:44 Thomas: Was, this is completely inadequate, inadequate instantly, he's like, okay, this isn't gonna do anything, so he's just like, well, this is nothing, um, I guess, hope they go away. And they did indeed go away, but they, uh, they dug up the whole place. It was really weird, gangs of under Biden's America, gangs of roving caravans of pigs. Thought you're gonna say the spookiest thing that ever happened to you is when you dug up, you're digging one day and you found a TV, you're like, oh my God, that's a callback that I, that, that might've just been the stream. I don't remember, but if so, that's

0:06:57 Lindsey: Yeah. That's crazy. TV.

0:07:12 Lindsey: I think It was, yeah. And we haven't talked about it on here.

0:07:18 Thomas: Yeah. You got to watch the stream from years ago. All right. Onto less cheery, spooktacular topics. Marissa McCool asks, "How many transphobic specials does Dave Chappelle have to make before people stop making excuses for him? This is four in a row and he literally self-ID'd as a turf and people are still making the same tired, just jokes defenses they do every time. The things he calls us people used to attack us verbatim, but somehow because it's jokes he gets a free pass after free pass. As a fan of stand-up comedy, other than Netflix getting enough heat that he stops getting paid millions of dollars to insult and put us in danger, what can we do to combat this? Because I'm tired of having to explain why it's not okay, even if they're allegedly jokes, so you did the research, you actually watched this special, I'm told, yeah.

0:07:27 Lindsey: Yep.

0:08:03 Lindsey: I And, uh, I agree with Marissa's assessment here, it was, it was pretty ignorant. And yeah, he used phrases like, I'm on Team Turf, and gender is a fact, and, you, they were jokes, but like it doesn't, it doesn't really seem to matter to this critique, to me it still seemed very ignorant and it still seems like he's contributing to a lot of harm here, so I don't know."

0:08:28 Thomas: It's just the most frustrating thing, and I like, it's also, and I mean this in a particular way, it's also so boring. It's not boring in that obviously it's a threat to trans people's lives, and I'm not saying it's not, but it's boring in that they think that it's so revolutionary every time, these comedians. Oh, you're not going to cancel. Oh, again, whether you're not going cancel me, like are we still, you know, it has been seven years of this same thing, cancel, cancel.

0:08:28 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:08:56 Thomas: Oh, I won't be silenced. Yeah, okay, we know. I get it. You're uncancelled. OK, now can we, can we move on from the meta debate about like whether or not you're canceled and just address the crap you're actually saying? Like, can one person actually defend or even talk about what he actually says, or what? They always jump to the meta discussion of free speech and cancel and blah, blah, bla. It's like, OK, what is the speech, though? What is the thing that keeps happening? Can we for once talk about it? Don't want to, in the same way that that meme is like, you know, I got censored for my conservative views. And you're like, which ones? Supply side economics? No, no, not that one. You know, low taxes? No.

0:09:41 Thomas: Not that. It's like, wow, weird. Which views? It's the same thing. Like, it's, it's always, and it's just so tiresome, like, it it's gotten so old to have to go through the same thing, there were knockdown arguments about this 10 years ago, you know, like, or whatever it's been, it's so long, how do we still have this same conversation over and over, they can't cancel me, yeah, I know, they're not canceling you, you actually got paid 20 million dollars for your, you're not canceled, okay. Like, he just says a bunch of shit and then capitalizes on preemptively saying he's going to be canceled, even though we can't counsel him because we, you know, like Marissa doesn't have the power to cancel him. We can't actually, it's, I guess, could cancel specials, but then guess what? He'll still be selling out arenas. There isn't canceling that doesn't happen to this guy, guy.

0:10:06 Lindsey: No.

0:10:29 Lindsey: I know, it's exhausting, yeah.

0:10:32 Thomas: Then look, I didn't, I didn't watch it. I haven't watched it. Um, are people claiming that it's maybe not what you might think if you watched it, and I also don't care about that because I don't, he has a quote. All I saw was the quote, I'm Team Turf, and I've seen some other quotes, but like that was, if I've seen that I've seen enough, like that's not a joke. What's the punchline? Like, what's the, what's, what's the setup? What's the joke of I'm Team Turf? If somebody, to Dave Chappelle, is just like, yeah, I'm Team KKK, that's the team I'm on, it'd be weird to be like, but it's just a joke. What's, what is the punchline? What's the joke that happened? I don't get it.

0:11:08 Lindsey: I know, I wish I could remember the context of that one in particular, and I do not. Um, yeah, it kind of doesn't matter.

0:11:14 Thomas: And, and I've seen all this stuff that seems really gross about him just using his dead friend, trans friend, as a prop the whole time. That I'm, I'm sure Dave Chappelle would be awesome with somebody, with a white person making a bunch of racist jokes about black people and being like, no, it's OK, I have a dead black friend. It's not even like I have A black friend, it's I have a dead Black friend. You can't even question that friend. If that trans friend of his who has passed away, who I believe committed suicide, right?

0:11:33 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:11:43 Thomas: Come on, you're You're using a trans friend who committed suicide as a prop, as like a defense for your transphobic jokes. How do we know that this trans friend, we have no idea, or I don't anyway, maybe somebody knows, but like, we don't know what this trans friends thoughts or feelings were like, you know, maybe they were really pressured into being cool with these jokes. I don't know. I'm not sure.

0:12:06 Lindsey: Yep.

0:12:07 Thomas: It's all stupid. It is all nothing. You can just do comedy without that. That is the thing. That's what drives me nuts. Actually is pretty easy to just be a stand -up comedian and make jokes that aren't that. Then you still are a comedian and you don't have to worry about any of this.

0:12:27 Lindsey: That. Sounds like a much better plan, yeah.

0:12:28 Thomas: You see? Oh, man. What was it? This was a viral post. I am going to give the disclaimer that I did not vet this, but this would be an incredibly weird thing for somebody to make up. It's not impossible. It is the internet. Did you see that something made the rounds about like, apparently the guy who played, uh, you know, Charlie in the chocolate factory's uncle, that, that beloved guy was a comedian. Joe, is that his name? Uncle, or is that Joe, Joe Biden? Uncle uncle, uncle, I don't know something.

0:12:58 Thomas: And he had, like, an article or something, like a little op-ed in, I don't know, 19 dickety two, whatever million years ago, that was like, it's a shame that we can't do blackface anymore, it's ruining comedy.

0:12:58 Lindsey: I don't remember, oh Wow, okay.

0:13:11 Thomas: Yeah, and like, that I didn't vet it, it could be made up, but it seems like a very strange thing to make up, like specifically, uh, Uncle Joe or whatever, saying that, and it just strikes me that these are not, none of this is new, like almost nothing about this is knew, it's the same culture every time, and the same, usually white people fall for it because it's so easy to feel like you're being threatened when you've had a, you know, monopoly on being able to make whatever jokes for so long, like it, it's, it's easy to convince a bunch of people you're under threat, you're not allowed to say anything anymore, and it's just, it hasn't been 10 years of this at least, I'm just bored of it, you know, like can you just read a book, can, can you juste learn and not have, have to go through this every time, I

0:13:57 Lindsey: Yep, uh, 10 years is generous, I think it's been going on much longer than that, that.

0:14:02 Thomas: Agree, but like even for me, I'm just like personally, because like I was more moderate 10 years ago, but but even still, that was, I think, when I was starting to you aware of these things and it's and I guess it's it's just like if I was able to go from a conservative to somebody who's like, oh, okay, I get it now, on these issues, like I understand, like I would have been the person 20 years ago or whatever that's like, ah, we should should be able to say whatever we want. You would have been that guy. I figured it out. So it's just exhausting to be like, why, why can't Why can't these people get there? You know? It's not, it's not hard.

0:14:30 Lindsey: Yeah, I don't know.

0:14:37 Thomas: It's so gaslighting too. 'Cause it's always the same preemptive. Sorry. I haven't, I've almost done an episode on this, but I haven't. So as you can hear, I have a lot of thoughts about how annoying this is. Preemptively, like, liberals just go, "Nah, you woke people go nuts over it." It's like, I haven't gone nuts, I've just said like, "Oh, that's shitty. Don't, that's fucking shitty, why does he have to do that?" That's that's most of what I see too is just like, why, why do you have to be like this? I don't know why, I don't know why, why, why, I'm just asking, asking why must you still do this is that too is hysterical for, you can you just answer why, why does this need to be done all the time? Four in a row, as Marissa says, like, God, so exhausting. Imagine how exhausting it is for trans people. Geez.

0:15:14 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:15:23 Lindsey: Yeah no kidding.

0:15:30 Thomas: Oh, all right, well, thanks for the question. I'm sorry you have to go through a fourth Dave Chapelle special, and the Ricky Gervais ones too. I mean, it's been, it's been years of this, it's not revolutionary, you're not being, you know, like, it's not edgy, it's just the same bullshit appealing to fake white victims, who, that's your crowd, that's your, that's, that's your fan base, that same person, generic person. All right, Buck Buchholz, can Lindsey please tell me, is it ghosts, do you, oh man

0:15:42 Lindsey: Yeah well I mean I'd need a little more context obviously you know like like what were you wearing? Did you lead him on? That kind of thing but but no no it's it's not ghosts. Thank you for the question though.

0:16:10 Thomas: Yeah, um, okay, here we go. General Contact, you, no problem, child. When people talk about what Trump and the GOP are trying to do to America, they tend to bring up Nazi Germany. But honestly, I think Russia under Putin is probably a better model for what they want the U.S. to be like. I think they want to be a better model for the U.K. to have all their trappings of a liberal democracy, but for the system to be rigged in such a way that their party always wins. Question is, how essential was Trump to that project? Like, suppose instead of him, a more typical Republican, Ted Cruz, say, had ran and won in 2016, they still would have gotten all those Supreme Court seats and red states still would've taken advantage of that situation to try to make it impossible for poor non-white people to vote.

Like, I think Trump broke some important norms and accelerated some dangerous trends on the right, but I ultimately think the GOP probably could have destroyed American democracy by just continuing to elect Reagan Bush style Republicans. I don't you start us off? I just talked for an hour. You start us off. What do you think?

0:17:06 Lindsey: I mean, I could definitely see the point. I mean, the thing about the Supreme Court seats and stuff, like, all that is true, I mean, and I, I don't know, like, I I feel like they, they opportunistically took advantage of, of, given that that was the candidate, and did some things that they probably wouldn't have been able to do otherwise, but like, yeah, if, if Ted Cruz had been the president, that would have sucked too, I don't know, yeah

0:17:13 Thomas: Yep, absolutely. Not, again, saying it wouldn't suck. I think that an element of Trump that I think is just plain worse than Republicans because, and in part because, because he's not a Republican, because it came down to, Trump threw jet fuel on the fire of, matter what you do or say as long as you hate the same people I hate. And while that definitely was being stirred up by other Republicans, I'm not saying it's an all or nothing thing. I think Trump in particular accelerated that so much more than the next Republican would have, you know, like he, he truly did turn it into, I hate the people that you hate. So therefore that's it. That's the entire party. Now they didn't even look under Ted Cruz. First off, Ted Cruz couldn't have possibly won because he just, he's just no charisma or whatever, but like under president Cruz, I would bet you there's, this is all counterfactual. So it's hard to know, but I would vet you that they would have had a Republican platform in 2020. You know, It wouldn't

0:17:38 Lindsey: I agree with that, yeah yeah

0:18:29 Thomas: Have been, yeah, whatever, Trump, whatever. We have no platform for the first time in 100 -something years. It's just Trump. That's our platform. Official party platform is Trump. That wouldn't Have happened under Cruz. A level of it that I think is significant. It's more than just like, oh, it was inevitably going to go there. I think Trump harnessed it and really inflamed it in a way that just would not have happened. And maybe maybe it would have eventually gotten there with somebody else. Who knows? But like, I think you really he really put it ahead of schedule, if that's true.

0:18:41 Lindsey: Yeah No, I agree with that, and also, and I was thinking about the Supreme Court picks in particular, you know, thinking back to all the analysis that you and Andrew did of that on OA, it, like, I mean, we would have ended up with a right-leaning Supreme Court no matter what, but it sounded like Trump's picks there were unthinkable for any run -of -the -mill Republican, right? Did I misread that?

0:19:19 Thomas: Mm hmm. That I I not sure I agree there, because what really happened is because the best, smartest thing Trump ever did, like, honestly, was realize that, like that's the way to have the actual party establishment behind him in any meaningful way was to give them all the judges they could possibly want. And what he did was just put he put what's his name in charge of it. Who the hell is that guy? I don't remember all these fucking names, but he put What's in his name and charge of his name. I'm blanking on and just went with the Federalist Society, whatever bullshit lists, you know, and I think Ted Cruz would have done that same thing.

0:19:51 Lindsey: Okay. Yeah. No, that's a fair point. Yeah, okay. Okay.

0:20:04 Thomas: For example, as another part of this hypothetical, um, and again, do not get me wrong, that I'm not saying any other Republican presidency would have been fine, it wouldn't have, it would have been awful in plenty of ways, I just think that Trump was uniquely terrible. And another example would be the election itself, I mean, even fucking Mike Pence was, like, well, we lost, you know, like he, you know, I, I mean, he, he could have, if he were Trump, we would have major problems, you know, like he could have really done some damage January 6th. Pence really could have. He didn't. And Mike Pence is like the most Republican of Republicans.

0:20:24 Lindsey: Mm-hmm. Yeah?

0:20:41 Thomas: You know, there's no he's awful. Like there's no. So, again, I think the level of shamelessness and lying was just so much more than the next worst Republican would have been. That's my view, though.

0:20:42 Lindsey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense.

0:20:55 Thomas: All right. Here's one that I imagine could be focused more for you. It seems a little psychological here. Jason Bunnell asks, in the host's view, what is the holdup for decriminalizing sex work and recreational drug use, particularly marijuana? I always hear these long flowing reasons why it's so hard and complicated. Oh, maybe there's more politics. Sorry. Yet when I research it, I don't really see anything stopping the executive branch to just do it, which tells me that there isn't really an obstruction to these objectively good things. Democrats just don't want to do it. Is that accurate in your view or is there really something stopping the good things from happening? I don't know. Do you know?

0:21:15 Lindsey: Yeah, I don't. But but I think that Jason's probably right that there's bipartisan skepticism about like whether sex work should be decriminalized. I mean, you know, if I I'm sure that there are more Democrats than Republicans that would support decriminalization, but I'm guessing it's a minority position in both parties.

0:21:51 Thomas: Yeah, definitely of sex work. Marijuana might be a different case, but yeah.

0:21:55 Lindsey: Yeah, but marijuana is on the way. I mean that's that's coming. So I don' t know.

0:21:57 Thomas: Yeah. No, I think so. That's what I'm saying. Decriminalizing sex work I don't think I don't think it's there yet. Whereas marijuana might be there now, but I don'T really, I'll be honest. I don't track that very closely because I live in California and we have whatever marijuana and I but I just don't really keep track of it. So this this isn't a question that I'm fit to answer. I don't think.

0:22:05 Lindsey: No, yeah. Oh. Yeah, no. I think Yeah. Yeah, same, yeah.

0:22:25 Thomas: Honestly, I don't follow marijuana stuff that much. I apologize. I can't really. Sorry, Jason. If your view is that, uh, there's nothing to stop the executive branch from just doing it from your research, then I guess that would, uh, I would have to say that would lead me to believe that Biden either doesn't care or he I thought he did something, but maybe it's not what you're talking about. So we'll have to come back to that. Maybe if we want to look into it more.

0:22:48 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:22:48 Thomas: Okay. No, your honor. I'm not a cat nor am I a potted plant, but I am a karaoke legend. If that helps asks as a fellow skeptic and scientists at that, what would you consider viable evidence of the existence of ghosts?

0:23:02 Lindsey: It's a hard question, it's like asking what, what the evidence for libertarian free will would be, you know, because because

0:23:08 Thomas: Yeah. I thought you were going to say libertarians. Let's see talk about spooky

0:23:11 Lindsey: It Well, yeah. Yeah, I'm not convinced about libertarians either, yeah. Um, no, so, so obviously the evidence of of my senses would not be enough because, you know, there are people who have like sleep disorders that cause really vivid, convincing hallucinations of ghosts and things like that. So that wouldn't be enough. I think what you'd need is like corroborating evidence of it. So like if I saw a ghost, I would need it to be also captured on some other kind of objective recorder or something.

0:23:15 Thomas: Yeah yeah

0:23:42 Lindsey: That would change my priors. Thing would be like if if I'm having a conversation with a ghost and they say, hey, I'm the ghost of a person that was murdered 200 years ago and nobody ever solved my murder or found my body, but it was Mitch McConnell and he buried me out behind the barn, you know? And then I went and dug up the body and it was there. And, you're right,

0:23:55 Thomas: I don't think Mitch McConnell, like I don't give him the respect of being somebody who could commit a murder, you know, he's too oily, he's not, he's the, he's backstabber, like in the, you know, Machiavellian, you know, who am I thinking of he's the worm tongue, you know, physically stabbing anybody, oh, that's a bad example, Worm Tongue does eventually physically stabbed Saruman. Sorry, spoilers. That's a bad example. Okay, never mind. Maybe if there to Mitch McConnell's Worm Tongue, maybe Mitch McConnell would stab that person.

0:24:16 Lindsey: He would have it done.

0:24:32 Lindsey: Yeah. So if that happens and the ghost told me where they were buried and I was able to confirm it.

0:24:37 Thomas: He's just too oily, though. He would sooner change his entire philosophy if it would benefit him to where he would cozy up with whoever needed to be murdered. I don't know. I just don't I don't think he's a murder that was the question right okay.

0:24:53 Lindsey: Okay. Well, that aside, side yeah. That was a question, um.

0:24:59 Thomas: Here's

0:25:00 Lindsey: I think yeah, so that those, those would change my priors on ghosts for sure. I don't know, would that convince you? Oh.

0:25:06 Thomas: We've talked about when you get an effect for something in a study and you need to be really careful with talking about that as a meaningful thing without a mechanism. What is the mechanism for ghosts? Like you know, know what I mean we've got no mechanism

0:25:19 Lindsey: So I mean that's that's why I started with the the incoherence of it, right? It's it seems as incohorant as as libertarian free will, so it's hard, but yes, anyway, proceed, yeah.

0:25:22 Thomas: Yeah but It's a little different because libertarian free will, you know, that's like a definitional philosophy-ish thing. So it's it's I, it's almost like if somebody said, like, what evidence would you need that gravity goes in reverse occasionally and you're like, well, oh, look, there's a video of something going up instead of down. And you just be like, well, that's never, I mean, okay, I guess it's evidence, but there's a billion other reasons why why that could happen and there's absolutely no mechanism to or reason the to explain why gravity would go opposite in this one case, you know what I mean. So it's like it's it's hard not to say you need, like, a framework and a mechanism for everything before you could ever possibly observe it. But it's very hard, I think, I think it just increases the burden that much, like you have to have, like, tons of it, like with dark matter, for example. Dark matter is one of those, those things where they like, I think they have theories, but it's, you a mystery, I think.

0:26:25 Thomas: But the reason they're so confident to say like, yes, there is definitely a thing we're talking about is that there's just reams and reams of evidence across multiple thingies, all saying the same thing. So I guess you'd need that. You just need, there's such a high burden to say, yes, this is a thing, we have absolutely no explanation for why it would exist, exist, that's like that's such a high burden of proof.

0:26:37 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:26:49 Lindsey: I agree, I mean, look, you know, I'm on, I'm, I'm team it's not not ghosts. But yeah, no, you would have to. Yes, I agree. You'd have to have a whole lot of evidence to really change my beliefs about this in any convincing way. I think we'd have it by now if it was out there.

0:26:52 Thomas: Yeah.

0:27:07 Thomas: They're, here's one you're excited about, General Contacting a Problem Child: are there many or any evo psych theories on why sexual fetishes exist? Wow, I've never thought about that. A while back I read, read an article claiming to be putting forward an evo psych explanation for why we might develop sexual fetishes. It basically suggested it might be the results of people in the modern world being overstimulated when our brains are learning what things to associate with sexuality and feelings of arousal.

A child growing up in a boring hunter-gatherer tribe would start developing sexual feelings and then they'd see the adult members of the group romancing each, they learn to associate their feeling, sexual feelings with those activities. Okay, by contrast, the child in the modern world is being constantly exposed to stimulation from art, media, and culture all around them, and then they're trying to figure out, uh, what to associate their sexual feelings with, and that might lead to odd connections, uh, created in the person's head. Is that a real idea? When I read that I initially found it appealing because it kind of jibes with my own experiences, but at the same time I have to admit it also sounds a bit like something you might write if you're a reactionary who wants to lend some scientific legitimacy to the idea of letting kids play Pokemon until it turns them into furries. Yeah.

0:28:22 Lindsey: That's good. Yeah, I looked around a bit for to try to find an academic paper on this topic, and I really didn't turn much up. So if Problem Child wants wants to pass along that article, I'd be interested in looking at it. But I know, I found one on paraphilias more generally, but it was an analysis on their relationship with reproductive success. And it didn't look awesome to me, honestly. So I don't know. It doesn't seem like there's a lot here in the academic literature, as far as I can tell. So anyway, so sexual development, it's not like, you know, a particular area of expertise for me, but my educated guess would be that fetishes are, I definitely wouldn't think they're an adaptation, but a byproduct of a flexible sexual system, which I think is I

0:29:03 Thomas: If anything they're the opposite of it. Wouldn't they be like negative, uh, reproduction? Sometimes, in many cases, maybe.

0:29:08 Lindsey: Think they could be. I would, I would, that most of the time they probably would be kind of neutral, right? Don't think that having a fetish means that you're not having partner sex, right? It just means that it involves something

0:29:13 Thomas: It just it feels Like if anything it makes it a burden, like if you're, if, if we're talking about a serious fetish, in like you can only get off if you have this XYZ something going on, that feels like it could only on, on the aggregate, make it slightly harder to make successfully. I don't know, yeah.

0:29:19 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:29:30 Lindsey: No I think I think you're right about that, right, like I, I don't know, know how, how big of a negative impact, but like if it's having an impact, it's probably negative and not positive. Yeah, um. Yeah, so I, I would, I would tend to guess that fetishes would be a byproduct of a flexible sexual system, which I think is essentially what Problem Child is describing in this hypothetical. Um, don't have a super strong intuition about whether they're produced specifically because of new features in our modern environment. Like, that could be the case, I just don't know. It seems like, yeah.

0:29:41 Thomas: Yeah I bet You, fetishes go, I bet you there's documented fetishes from a zillion years ago, if I were to I haven't looked this up, but if I were to guess, there will be some historical evidence of Sumerians having fetishes of stuff. How

0:30:06 Lindsey: Yeah all right I That's tends to be my intuition too, I doubt that this is a an environmental mismatch kind of thing. Um, but I did want to, so I was, I was looking up some stuff, I wanted to look at some, uh, non-evo stuff, just stuff on fetishes, and I found this article that I absolutely have to tell you about. It's by Foss, Erickson, and Talionakis. And what, what they did in this study was condition male rats to associate sexual activity with rodent jackets as a model of how fetishes develop. So this is the best, this is the most. So they took male rats who had never had sex before and they put half of the rats in jackets.

0:30:53 Thomas: They know, were they playing Dnd, or, oh no, sorry, that's insulting most, most of my audience, never mind. Just just a joke rat Dnd, got little like wizard's hats on.

0:30:59 Lindsey: Oh, so put they put half of the rats in jackets and they didn't they didn't really describe the jackets or have pictures. I was hoping they'd have pictures of the rat's jackets.

0:31:13 Thomas: I'm picturing like Grease, you know, wasn't there some some jackets in that movie, the

0:31:17 Lindsey: Yeah, I hope it was like grease or maybe like a nice, nice blazer, you know. Anyway, so half the rats were in jackets. Other half did not wear jackets. Then they put the male rats in a chamber with female rats and copulation ensued as it does. And then later they did a test trial in which they allowed the rats to have sex again, and either they had the rats in the same condition as the first trial, so if they, if they wore a jacket in the training trial, trial, then they also wore a jacket inthe second trial, and vice versa. So they either had them in the samem condition or they had themin the opposite condition.

So if they worea jacket inthetraining trial, they didn't wear a jacketin the second trialand vice versa, and they found that the rats that were trained and tested with the jacket copulated normally, abnormally, as did the rats that were trained and tested without the jacket and the rats trained without the racket and tested with the racket. But the rats that were drained with the jacket but were tested without it showed impaired performance. So like delayed ejaculation, fewer ejaculations.

0:31:30 Thomas: Uh huh interesting

0:32:15 Lindsey: And they took this as evidence that the rats drained with the jackets developed something like a fetish for the racket because the racket was necessary for normal sexual activity. So I thought that was fun.

0:32:21 Thomas: There's one rat in the fawn's jacket, that's like, this got me so much tail.

0:32:29 Lindsey: So I'd really like to replicate this study with spiders and see if they can, you know, condition the palp, the palpaloozing, or little spider jackets. But yeah, so I just thought that was fun and people might enjoy that, rat jackets.

0:32:42 Thomas: Rat jacket, ah, rat jackets, it's gonna be my new old-timey, like, dadgummit, rat Somebody researched that, then. Like, come on, get on that. I wanna, I'm curious.

0:32:48 Lindsey: Yeah. Oh, no, there's research on it. There's just not, as far as I could tell, there wasn't like specifically like evolutionary stuff on it, yeah, yeah.

0:32:54 Thomas: Oh, There was an evo psych research on it. Okay. Oh,

0:33:03 Lindsey: But there definitely is literature in the sex research about fetishes, for sure.

0:33:05 Thomas: I was gonna say, do this so it- So there's no consensus on kind of like any sort of causality or that.

0:33:13 Lindsey: Know. I mean, I didn't do like a full lit review for this question. We could do an episode on fetishes if people would be into that.

0:33:20 Thomas: Would be interesting. If that would be their fetish. Yeah. Like, if they would be really into it. Okay. Well, we'll table that. I'd- Would you like to discuss the Mandela effect? It is a description of how people remember things slightly wrong all the time and how that effect, factuality, e.g., thousands of people erroneously remembered Nelson Mandela dying in prison in the 80s when he did not. Interesting, have you looked into this? Oh,

0:33:21 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah.

0:33:49 Lindsey: Oh, yeah. No, I love the Mandela effect. It's my favorite. Yeah. So for anybody who's been living under a rock, it describes this experience in which you have a memory of how something used to be and your memory doesn't match the way that the thing is now. And some of the most famous ones are like the Berenstain Bears.

0:34:06 Thomas: My god, yeah, that one got me, yeah.

0:34:07 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people remember it as Berenstain, right? Another one is, well, that's a hypothesis.

0:34:11 Thomas: Because that's what it was until Thanos or somebody changed it. And also Shazam or Kazam, I can't remember one one of the other, yeah, that's a great one. That's

0:34:20 Lindsey: Uh -huh. That's another famous one. The Fruit of the Loom logo, a lot of people remember featuring a cornucopia, but it's just a pile of fruit. Has never been a Jiffie peanut butter, but there was Jiff and Skippy, yeah. Uh, Looney Tunes is spelled t-u-n -e -s and not Tunes like cartoons, um, and then of course there's... there's the hamster, which there's the hamster which, remembered it being hamster as I recall.

0:34:32 Thomas: Yeah, It's Jiff and Skippy, yeah, okay. Oh, man, yeah, that's that's so crazy, what, oh, hamster.

0:34:52 Lindsey: So, yeah.

0:34:52 Thomas: Oh, really, oh, that's funny, hamster, yeah, I think this is just you doing a public service announcement of like, hey, here's all the stuff that's you're wrong about because you've fallen victim to this effect, so it just seems to be stuff that like culturally a lot of people make the same error in the same direction and then also reinforce each other's false beliefs for some reason, yeah.

0:34:55 Lindsey: Roger will get that reference.

0:35:05 Lindsey: Yeah. Exactly. That's right. That's right. But some folks are so disturbed by the imperfect nature of human memory that they've decided that their memories cannot be wrong about these things and that a more parsimonious explanation is that our memories are actually from a different timeline than the one that we're in. And so everybody who remembers Berenstain has hopped from the timeline in which it actually was Berenstein into the Berenstaing timeline.

0:35:18 Thomas: Yeah, that's more plausible than ghosts, I'll give it that, yeah.

0:35:36 Lindsey: Yeah, that's true. Time does exist. Yeah, actually, it's good timing because Marsh just did a Be Reasonable episode where he interviewed somebody who believes in this timeline hypothesis. Very good interview. People should check that out. And then one of our patrons also plugged the citation needed episode about this and that is a great episode so yeah mm -hmm spooky yeah

0:35:42 Thomas: Nice.

0:35:57 Thomas: Have fun, all right. Abscion, in relatively recent news, there's been the issue of refusing organ donations for those who refuse to vaccinate, which seems reasonable. However, for those recipients who follow the rules, I wonder how much we want to balance a likelihood of recovery versus the fairness of a random draw. I was curious your opinions. Wait, that just a regular organ donation question, or does the vaccination thing really matter there? I guess I'm not understanding. Isn't that always the problem?

0:36:26 Lindsey: It does sound like a normal yeah

0:36:28 Thomas: Okay. Is that how you took it?

0:36:28 Lindsey: Is that it is how I took it and I don't really know much about this process but like isn't that how it works don't they like give priority to people who are more likely to

0:36:35 Thomas: I believe there is a Point score based on a lot of that stuff, I think, but I don't know, yeah.

0:36:37 Lindsey: Yeah yeah and so if somebody tied on that scoring system I hope that they would do it using some sort of random process um

0:36:47 Thomas: Or just rock paper scissors or Like a race, no. Yeah, that's awful. I, there's, that's prime, um, candidate for things to be done in a way that might be really unfair or really, like, awful, like, moral questions, that's, that's tough. I like the stuff, the happier note about organ donations is I love the uh the organ chains, those things, you know, that Where it's like, like if you, I believe it's because of the compatibility issues. Like sometimes you can be like, all right, I want my, my, uh, you know, my friend or my relative needs a kidney, but I'm not a compatible donor. But like, if I donate my kidney, it will fulfill of some other chains that then lead to, like, you know, maybe five people get a kidney, and including my friend or my loved one, because of, like, the compatibility issues. That's super cool. I like that.

0:36:52 Lindsey: Terrible oh that

0:37:43 Thomas: That's a more, it's A more positive outcome about it, it

0:37:44 Lindsey: Is cool yeah yeah I hadn't heard of that that's awesome

0:37:48 Thomas: Oh yeah, it's cool. I, I see it from time to time where it's like, yeah, it makes a chain of three that can be successful now because they needed the compatibility. I think that's my understanding of it. So I guess we're on the record as saying that I would hope likelihood of recovery is part of the calculation. I don't think it should be merely like first come first serve necessarily.

0:38:07 Thomas: It, that's one, one of those tough moral questions, but I think at the very least there ought to be some calculations involving, you and likelihood of recovery and that kind of thing. But I imagine that's a tough calculation to make.

0:37:57 Lindsey: Wow yeah yeah I'm glad I don't have that job that sounds awful

0:38:23 Thomas: No kidding. C. Hawkins writes, "What do you think of this assessment of socialist or progressive frustrations with the Democratic Party?" Oh joy, joy. This sounds like something I'm going to yell about. Let's see. "It's a majoritarian party." That's okay. What party isn't a major? Nevermind. "That's home to diametrically opposed interests, labor and management, tenants and landlords. The USA being a capitalist country, management and landlords always win out. Take what we're seeing with the current infrastructure fight.

Even if a reconciliation bill ends up passing, it's going to be a watered down, inadequate piece of legislation. Like most left, leftists who haven't given up on electoral politics, I've dutifully voted Democratic in every general election, and I voted against the recall in California, but it always feels like a hostage crisis, crisis, and that breeds a lot of resentment." I, I agree with a lot of this, um, "home to diametrically opposed." I would say that the only people who are the interest of labor, like who are working in the interest of labor, are in the Democratic Party. But I also think that there are plenty of people in the Democratic Party who, you know, they draw their lines different places for reason or another. It could be outright, like they want to benefit in a, you knows, tenants and landlord sense, sense. Or it could be like they are factually wrong about what will help people.

I mean, I think that's something that, you know, maybe you can trace that back to capitalism, and that may be absolutely true. Like capitalism has reproduced certain, I, notions about like what's going to work for people and what policy is, like, too much, what policy's out of bounds. But I also think that a lot of people, people just genuinely think that there are ways that I think people have genuine disagreements about what's going to help people.

0:38:23 Lindsey: Yeah

0:40:14 Thomas: Like, for example, rent control is one that I think is actually a bad policy. Um, but it's a tough question because we have to do something. So it's like, maybe, maybe a bad policy is the closest thing we can do to help somebody, but really rent control, like, paralyzes people where they currently live. It doesn't actually increase housing supply. So it just like gives certain people a better deal, which may be good. But like, also, what we really have to do is increase housing supply somehow. And there's all kinds of reasons why that's not happening. Anyway, stuff like that where it's like, maybe people, I feel like a lot of the far left is always about reducing people to either they have the good motivations or the bad motivations. And I think it's a little more reductionist than I like.

0:41:00 Thomas: Anyway, I, an electoral system, you have to win. You have to win majorities. And so I don't know how you can be a winning party and not be, quote unquote, majoritarian. That's what I don't get. It, so what party would be that? Like, unless it's a party that's just gonna lose, and then what is the use of it? Like, if all, if all a party does is lose and not win anything, I don't, what's the point of it? It's not doing anything. I don't know what do you think

0:41:24 Lindsey: I don't. I don't have a lot to add to that. I mean, I'm I'm sympathetic with frustrations, but yeah.

0:41:26 Thomas: Yeah. Me too. I don't know why we have to look so deep into these things in this particular case. You, this case, what has happened is we have a shitty person in Kyrsten Sinema and a person who sucks, but is justifiably so, in, uh, in Manchin, because he's in a red state. So, like, I actually, it's funny, as bad as people get, if we replace Joe Manchin, we would get a Republican. If we replaced Kyrsten Sinema, we would get an actual Democrat who wants to be a part of the Democratic Party. So that's why I'm so much more mad at Kyrsten Sinema. We're actually, still, I know nobody wants to hear it, but we're actually very lucky to have Joe Manchin. Nobody wants to hear it. It's totally true. Having said that, I'm angry at him and want him to go further left. But like, if Joe Manchin died of a stroke tomorrow, we would have a Republican. We wouldn't get another judge. We wouldn't, be it would be zero.

0:42:16 Thomas: And what sucks is, as much as, you know, because I want to make change, and because I think the way forward is by electing more Democrats is the only viable way to, to get strong progressive change, I think people lump me in as like, "Oh, you're just a sucker for the Democratic Party." It's not true. It's two different things. Like, I genuinely think that we're in a lot of trouble in this country in a serious way. And the only way to avoid these things, if indeed there is anywhere, there may be no way. But the only possible way, in my opinion, my genuine belief, belief, is to elect more Democrats. And so, therefore, I fight really hard for Democrats because those are all genuine beliefs on my part. Like, I get that that can look the same as like, "Oh, I'm just a fan of the blue team and I don't look too critically into it."

0:43:04 Thomas: That can look the same, but I think it's important to note that it, different. And it's also the logical thing to do if you're like me, and you think that the only thing protecting us, or even possibly, possibly protecting us, from the collapse of our democracy and from climate change and all that stuff is the possibility of electing more Democrats, then, like, you should be fighting tooth and nail every way you can to elect more Democrats. And part of that might be to try to push back on leftists who want to shit on the party all the time. Um, even though I might share 90% of their beliefs, you know, um, It's, it's weird. I, but I get it. Like, I think it all, all of this, all these frustrations come from a powerlessness, and I get it.

0:43:37 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

0:43:45 Thomas: You know, we all, when we're all kind of powerless in the end, like even people who are voting for Democrats, like even if they win, it's like I don't have the power to make the policy go the way I want it to go. One thing I would say to, to the leftists listening, if you are listening, though, is please at least be open to the possibility that actually this legislation is fucking amazing relative to anything that's happened in the country in a million years. And what we're actually judging it based on is this hypothetical thing we could have had, which is appropriate in some contexts. Like, it was appropriate to start off with, "Okay, what can we possibly do?" Like, started with, you, trillion dollars of whatever, like we started there, and that's good.

But it, about the psychology of this, Lindsey, like starting from there and then getting pared down to merely a historical, amazing $2 trillion bill, somehow just feels so much worse to us than going the opposite way and realizing that this is a historical thing. And really, all we lost with Cinema and Mansion, which is important, by the way, I'm not saying this isn't important, but when you look at what we actually lost, it wasn't all that much. We lost, I don't know, three or four provisions that would have been amazing, but there's so much there that we're actually getting that it does get frustrating to see "water down an inadequate piece of legislation." Like, okay, but at the same time, I might have my child care limited to seven percent of my income. You know how fucking amazing that would be for me, for

0:44:10 Lindsey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm hm.

0:45:13 Thomas: And and not just for me, I'm a privileged person, we'll get by one way or the other, you know, because we're both employed and we, you know, we have good jobs, but like for other people, any, anyone, like up and down California, wherever you are on the income ladder or whatever, like childcare is absurd. I know I say it all the time, but like it's unworkable and having a bill that's going to cap it to 7% or I think it might be less if you're a little lower on the outcome. Yeah, not perfect, but Jesus, like that's gonna make a massive difference to people.

0:45:29 Lindsey: Yes.

0:45:45 Thomas: There's a lot of stuff like that in this bill, like it's, there's, it's amazing stuff that's going to happen in this bill. It's not everything we would have wanted, but it's a fine line, I, I get that people don't want to just say, "Oh, we're satisfied, so we'll stop fighting," and I'm not ever saying you should do that, but tough line, you know, it's like, yes, I am very happy that this happened. We can, yes, we can fight for more, but also recognizing what an accomplishment this might be. It's just a hard thing that a lot of people don't want to do. It's just easier to be like, nah, not enough. This sucks. Boo.

0:45:43 Lindsey: Yes, it will. Yeah no, of course not.

0:46:16 Lindsey: Yeah and it definitely would not have happened with Republican majorities and a Republican in the White House. That's just never. So

0:46:20 Thomas: Oh my God. We wouldn't get anything. Zero. We would get not only zero, like we, if Trump were still president, we're still Republicans. They'd be doing more tax cuts for rich people. You know, like it's, it's unbelievable. The difference like it, and And it's just so frustrating because it's such a stark difference. And yet so many people that I see are willing to throw that away, it seems like. Or they're willing to be reckless with their rhetoric. And I'm not accusing the questioner of doing this, but it just, to me, it's shocking. Like, it actually shocks me that they're so cavalier. You know, I see people on my timeline are like, I'm not voting for Democrats anymore because of this.

And I've just like, what? Are you fucking kidding me? Like, I don't even know what to say. You're that cavalier with the future of this country and with the possibility of Trump. Trump will be running in 2024. You're not going to vote for Democrats anymore? You're going to let that happen again? You know how many people died because of that? Trans people lost their jobs? Immigrants being demonized? I don't understand how people can be so set on their perfect thing that, by the way, I probably completely agree with and also want. But they can be so dead set on that, that they could let untold cruelty happen because they didn't get their thing. It just blows

0:46:22 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yep.

0:47:35 Thomas: My mind. I'll never understand it. All right. Colette, probably too late to ask this, but what are your thoughts on true crime, its purpose and ethics? Yeah. An article made the rounds here. Did you catch that article that I think I might've shared it?

0:47:48 Lindsey: Yeah I did see you shared it.

0:47:50 Thomas: What'd you think? What do you, what do you think about this question?

0:47:52 Lindsey: Yeah Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I think I enjoy true crime as much as the next person. I wouldn't say I'm a junkie or anything, but, you know, but I think if Colette is pointing toward the fact that, you Know, consuming a lot of this stuff can have consequences in terms of like your perception of how dangerous the world is.

0:48:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:48:11 Lindsey: I think that's, that's true. You know, most folks have probably heard of the availability heuristic, which describes the observation that our judgments of how common or probable something is are informed by how easy it is for us to generate examples of it having happened. So if you watch a lot of true crime, right, the likelihood is that you're going to perceive the world as more dangerous than it actually is. So right? I don't know. What people do with that information is up to them, I suppose.

You know, if you love true crime then who am I to stop you? But I think it's worth being aware that, you a lot lot of the stuff I do think that people uh increases like their vigilance and paranoia about things like that I mean it actually it reminded me of the interview you did a billion years ago with those researchers who were investigating parent perceptions of stranger danger um which that that was a great interview um it essentially they were showing that parents have like just really distorted perceptions of how likely it is that their children are to be kidnapped and how dangerous it is to leave them alone and things like like that

0:49:07 Lindsey: And that has practical consequences yeah yeah so anyway

0:48:46 Thomas: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. And it has real negative effects. Yeah yeah totally. Sorry. Yeah I agree. No I mean this is too much. I could talk for an hour about this honestly but I we're out of time so I won't. Not really liked that true crime is a thing that it is and I but like anybody, you know, mysteries can be super intriguing, you know, obviously true true crime, certain documentaries are super intriguing to me. And I've watched, but I personally, I'm pretty choosy with it. I think that I vote, and this is merely talking about me.

I've always been uncomfortable the minute it's felt like I'm like, "Oh, let me search for someone else's awful murder" death thing to be my entertainment. Like I've Always personally, I've already felt that's weird. And so I'm a little choosie with it, you know, I don't, I, I'm not saying I've banned anything, nothing like that. I'm just, for me personally, I'm like, I don't know. There's ones where I've like, oh, I started this. I'm like, nah, I'm not doing that. I don't need to do that. This is just murder as an entertainment for

0:49:17 Lindsey: Yeah that's a good point too yeah

0:50:09 Thomas: Me. I just, I don't know. I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed. And I also partake from time to time, but I just feel like it's the kind of thing that, just all the time you're into it, it's just, it's just weird. I don't know, to me personally. It's a little bit, something's a little uncomfortable about it. And just imagine like if that was you or anyone, you know, like how horrible it'd be to like, oh, cool. People are big fans of like my relative's murder. Awesome.

0:50:09 Lindsey: Yeah yeah

0:50:33 Thomas: Cool that you're fans of that.

0:50:33 Lindsey: No I'm glad you brought up that because I forgot part of the question was about the ethics and like, yeah, I I've definitely, you know, started watching some things that seem like really sort of exploitative and ghoulish and like that, that's that does not appeal to me. So I I think that, yeah, there are definitely examples of true crime that are done in a way that just does feel kind of gross. Um, yeah.

0:50:55 Thomas: Also I more agree with like if you're talking about rather than preference and feeling a little gross, the more practical problem and the more and the bigger actual effect is it's a fundamentally conservative thing. You know, it tends to be like it just it just that was the thrust of the article was like it'll get liberal people chanting like, oh, give them the gas chamber. You know like it will get people who otherwise would be very liberal minded and be anti -death penalty and would be, you criminal justice reform to to be be like sitting there rooting for more policing and arrest this person and throw them and, you know, throw them in the gas chamber kind of thing.

It just, it can't help, but be that I think like the reason, you tough on crime worked for so long, so well, and still works is that it just, as you say, I think it just increases that availability heuristic where we think we're more under threat. We think we need more police. We think, we need all these things that we don't. And it fundamentally leads us in a conservative direction. So I think it's something

0:51:17 Lindsey: Yeah

0:51:52 Thomas: To just be aware of.

0:51:52 Lindsey: That's a good point mm -hmm, yeah.

0:51:54 Thomas: I'm not saying that anyone who listens to true crime is going to turn into Mike Pence or whatever, but it's just something to be aware of as a concern about it.

0:52:05 Lindsey: No, that's, that's a great point, yeah.

0:52:07 Thomas: I honestly have so many thoughts on that because that article was interesting. I heard a podcast that was pretty interesting about it, and I just had a bunch of thoughts. And again, that's as somebody who has enjoyed plenty of true crime thingies. I'm, I'm not trying to judge anybody's preferences too harshly or anything. Like, I get it. It's can be super interesting. There's nothing like a mystery and like the stakes of true crime are obviously high and people love high stakes in any entertainment that they consume. Like it's so it's, it's, it can't, we can't help, but like it, I think in a lot of ways, but, uh, but yeah, just, I just, I have some concerns with it.

Um, I Think that's all the time we have. Um, that we didn't get to the last two here. Um but feel free to ask it again next. It won't be spooktacular. It's the only problem. It'll be November. So it'll be, I don't know, um, fake stories about pilgrims or something. I don't know how we're going to celebrate November. I don't know. It's such a letdown after Spooktacular. Well, how could, where do you go after Spooktacular? Yeah. But Thanksgiving is great. So maybe it'll just be a gobble, gobbledy, gobble gobble questions. All right. Thanks so much for the questions, patrons. We love you. You're the best. Uh was a lot of fun and uh

0:52:38 Lindsey: Um

0:53:14 Thomas: Thanks lindsey here's

0:53:14 Lindsey: -hm, thank you, yeah

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