SIO300: June Patreon QnA!

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:11 Thomas: Hello and welcome to SIO 300. I'm Thomas. That's co-host Lindsey Osterman. How are you doing?

0:00:17 Lindsey: Oh, fantastic. I didn't get you anything. I'm sorry.

0:00:24 Thomas: Oh, well, cancel the recording. Stop. Yeah, no, I kind of forgot that it was going to be 300. But you know what? We're going to celebrate with a Q&A for June because this has been a fun thing we do each month.

0:00:29 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:00:40 Lindsey: Yeah, I love it. My favorite thing. Pretty good. You know, a little sunburned, but otherwise. That

0:00:40 Thomas: Uh. Yeah. Are you doing You still sound great. I was wondering because you're on a trip, you know, do you, I don't know if you still have your like wooden pop filter, your artisanal pop filter. Yeah.

0:00:57 Lindsey: One does not work for traveling, so I brought a different pop filter that can survive the trip. Can't take any risks.

0:00:59 Thomas: It's Not Yeah, the pop filter that previously your partner had carved out of an entire log, like whittled down into a pop filter, this is amazing work, that isn't a good traveling one. I agree. No, a couple hundred pounds. Yeah.

0:01:16 Lindsey: No, no, that would fall apart. But Yeah.

0:01:21 Thomas: But you still sound great. So I'm curious. I can't wait to check. I do a little like, uh, every time I get an audio file, you know, I can do a certain amount of, uh. Audio forensics, you Know, and kind of hear like, Oh, what's the room sound like? What's the, you know, what's the, what's the room noise? What's the this? It's, it's interesting. It's a, it's a fun part of my job, except not. Cause It's usually like, wow, I got to fix a a bunch of stuff. Yeah.

0:01:41 Lindsey: Yeah. This is, uh, this is definitely not as good as the room that I usually use. It's got pretty high ceilings and stuff, so yeah, you're gonna have some stuff to do. But

0:01:48 Thomas: Yeah. I'll be like, are there four air conditioners in this place? Why they're all going on at different times and different frequencies? I can't fix that, that's usually

0:01:52 Lindsey: Yeah. There's 11 refrigerators in this room with me right now.

0:02:01 Thomas: Oh my God.

0:02:02 Lindsey: So sorry about that. Yep.

0:02:02 Thomas: Refrigerators. Forget about it. Well, that's all inside podcast stuff. Um, yeah. Let's tackle our June Q&A thread, this has been the fun, the most fun. So as a reminder, on Patreon each, each month at the beginning of the month, I put up a question thread and then as the month goes on, patrons can ask questions as they occur to them, which is a great way to do it. I think if you hear an episode earlier in the month you don't want to have to hold your question, remember it forever and then ask at the end. So just anytime you're listening to the show and you are a patron and you hear something and you want to ask a question about it, hop on to Patreon and find that question thread.

0:02:10 Lindsey: It's Wonderful system. Oh.

0:02:43 Thomas: Yeah, I cracked it only, you know, 10 years into podcasting. I finally figured it out. Uh so June Q&A I love this first question from Opening Arguments. Is there a Teresa Gomez for SIO and Q&A threads? Uh yeah there I you know I I'm sad that there's no actual Teresa Gomez here. I'll try not to be offended that Teresa Gomez hasn't doesn't ask questions in the but she you know she shows up for the game streams when we do those so I it's all is forgiven but no I so for opening arguments Teresa Gomez always pops in with the first question and there's, there is a tight competition for that, by the way, she, she has to be on her game to get that first question. Um, and so that was a funny question by, uh, Andrew over at Opening Arguments. So good stuff. I would say, I would Say windy city. Roger is the closest we have.

0:03:03 Lindsey: Yeah. That's True. Yeah.

0:03:30 Lindsey: Thanks. Andrew. Mm-hmm. He's trying. Yeah.

0:03:35 Thomas: Yeah. Speaking of let's Roger has a question about trans women in sports.

0:03:41 Thomas: So, Roger says, it was briefly touched upon in the previous episode that the NCAA rules and guidelines for transitioning athletes that appear to be robust and successful. Not a question per se, but would it be possible to get a deeper dive into that? Maybe we'll see. For example, I see some articles, not able to link them here without getting removed. That's interesting. But the title is, "How Does Hormone Transition in Transgender Women Change Body Composition, Muscle Strength, and Hemoglobin? Systematic Review with a Focus on the Implications for Sport Participation." That appear to conclude that in trans women, hormone therapy rapidly reduces HGB to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone theory is decreases strength, LBM, and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be preserved in trans women during the first three years of hormone therapy. From the article side above, studies like this get cited by the anti-transgender playing in sports group side and wanted to have some good talking points to push back or assuage their fears whenever we interact. Well, that's a lot. What do you think?

0:04:51 Lindsey: There is a lot here, and I mean, we got a question that was along these lines, I think, in the first Q&A that we did. And I think that my main response to this is that I don't like responding to this kind of argument, because I think it's legitimizing a problem that doesn't exist, right? They're imagining this threat from trans women in sports that just isn't there, right. And I think that that Twitter thread that you read from, uh, illustrates that pretty nicely.

That That aside, like, I wanted to plug, um, the last episode of Embrace the Void, which was part two of an interview with Kathy Young, and I think that Aaron did, like, provided some really useful context for this controversy. And so I'd suggest that people listen to that. So he talked about the fact that these, you know, quote unquote concerns that are being raised about trans athletes aren't new, they are resurrected arguments that have been made about lesbians in sports and occasionally black women in sports. It's like all the exact same arguments and I think that that really does kind of demonstrate that that people are manufacturing this problem to prop up bigotry, so I would

0:05:09 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Boy,

0:05:58 Lindsey: I would suggest that people listen to that. Yeah.

0:05:58 Thomas: Isn't that a theme of America, basically? I mean, it's weird. Before I learned a lot about this, you see these concerns and you think, oh, okay. I understand that it seems like an organic concern someone has come up with. At the time, you know, oh, it's, uh, affirmative action, all this stuff. And then as I learned more, I grew up, learn more, it's like, oh no, you're just doing the same thing that has been done for actually over a century, where it's like, but are we going too far and something, you know, whatever the thing is, you know, like right when we ended slavery, that was already the conversation, like, are we prioritizing black people too much 10 seconds after we ended slavery. It is actually remarkable if you go back and look at some of those quotes, you know, that like it literally is that, like, they, they're almost word for word.

You know, they're a little old-timey sounding, but they're, like, they're word for word the same kind of stuff that white people, white conservatives complain about now. And it's interesting because, like, philosophically, I guess someone might call that like a genetic fallacy, like, well, that doesn't mean it's wrong kind of thing. But I don't know. I think it really provides, as you said, and definitely check out Embrace the Void.

0:06:27 Lindsey: Yeah, oh.

0:07:14 Thomas: Always a recommendation to check out Aaron's show, Embrace the Void. And what he's been doing a lot more lately, I think, is he's really trying to have these conversations with some people who, you know, I'm not a huge fan enough, but, um, it's, it's been very, uh, enlightening to hear some of these, um, some of the debates he's been doing on YouTube as well. But anyway, the point is, I think it is, you know, and tell me if you if you agree or disagree, but I think it's very useful to note the origin of some of these things and that when when it's the same kind of concerns over and over about the sky falling and the sky hasn't fallen these whole centuries, I think it is worth noting, even if it doesn't, I guess I suppose philosophically speaking it doesn't prove that they're not right this time, you know, like maybe this time where the kids have gone too far or whatever, but like I still think it puts it in some pretty valuable context. Yeah.

0:07:46 Lindsey: Yeah, no.

0:08:11 Lindsey: I totally agree with that. I mean, my, my whole kick recently has been, you know, trying to get more of a historical context on a lot of questions that have been brought up as scientific. I mean, we've talked about race science before, and the long sort of history of these questions, that some people are saying, like, you know, we're just raising these questions, you can't rule out a scientific question just because you find it offensive, and taking a historical view on those questions, I think is super valuable in sort of undercutting that position. It's like, no, they're not new questions and we, and when, you know, the origins of them, they do seem a lot more ominous than if, you know, somebody was just sort of making casual observations of their environment and just, you know, coming up with this a priori. I, I don't know.

0:08:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:08:54 Thomas: It, you start getting kind of, I don't like, existential or something, you know, when you hear, especially, you're wrong about, which, which I think you got me into, or some listeners got me into, which I absolutely love. And they do great breakdowns of like all these old moral panics. And I, maybe I'm doing the every, you know when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail thing, but I don't know when you, like a moral panic detector, everything starts to look like a mental panic, but also it kind of is like the right does seem to be that like just whatever a given year is, you could look like the rings on a frigging tree, kind of, and be like, oh, I see they had a wet season.

And also the moral panic was gay marriage or whatever, you know, something. And it's like, oh, wow, everything, all these arguments are like, yeah, gay marriage is going to ruin the thing. And then the next thing, oh well, it's trans people or well, you intersectionality. And it's amazing how they go from one moral panic to the next. And I imagine you're similar, Lindsay, where it's like, I'm at least always trying to think, okay, does this mean I'm locked in something similar?

0:09:03 Lindsey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:58 Thomas: You know, like, am I doing something? What is the left doing? It's weird because I don't really see that on the left. On the left, I see like, can we get some fucking healthcare? You know, like this is not a moral panic. We still need healthcare. And also rich people are paying no taxes still. And all this stuff that is still never resolved versus the the other side seems to be how, what can we freak out about to drive voter negative energy kind of thing in this given six month cycle or whatever? I don't even know if it lasts that long, but we'll see how long critical race theory is. The is the moral panic.

0:09:58 Lindsey: Oh.

0:10:36 Lindsey: God, yeah, hopefully that one is over fairly quickly, this is ridiculous, I can't, yeah, that

0:10:44 Thomas: Do think is there anything on the left we're doing? I mean yes, we freaked out about Trump, but like I feel like we were pretty much vindicated.

0:10:49 Lindsey: Was justified Yeah.

0:10:50 Thomas: You know, I suppose there's like a segment of the left that I hate to say, but, you know, there was a segment of the Left that did go too far with the Russia stuff. But it's not as though there was nothing there, you Know, but like there I don't know. There was a lot of like, oh, he's Trump's the an asset and everything was looked at in those terms. And I think there were some people were getting a little too carried away with like Putin is literally remote controlling, you know, that kind of level of conspiracy theory. But like, I don't know. That seems like a a pretty small segment of the left. And by the way, those concerns were based on very legitimate things about Russia and the election.

0:11:09 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:11:27 Lindsey: No.

0:11:28 Thomas: So I just don't see an equivalence there that I know of, but let me know if I'm being unfair to the right. I don't know.

0:11:37 Lindsey: I don't know, I mean, I've, I've, I would, I would have to, to do some more reading and think about that more, but there does seem to be an asymmetry that's actually rooted in the kind of ideology that you see on the right versus the left that promotes this kind of stuff more. I don't know. Yeah.

0:11:48 Thomas: Yeah. All right. Well, let's move on to Catherine's question. Long, long ago, so far back that it may have even been when when you were still atheistically speaking, you did an episode in which you interviewed a young man from Syria to help explain the convoluted war there. I'm a few weeks behind in the podcast right now. So pardon me if you've covered this, but how is he? I think of him periodically and wonder where he is and if he's okay. So if I had to guess, I would say that was like very early in the SIO. I don't think it was atheistically Speaking, but it could be wrong.

0:12:20 Lindsey: No. It was like '13 or something, '34. Yeah.

0:12:24 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, that's Nenar. And I think about him all the time too. And perhaps for different reasons. Now I believe, I haven't spoken to Nenars in a long time, but I believe he's fine. I think we're still Facebook friends. And the key is that I don't believe he lives in Syria still, or, you know, like he had left. The reason I was able to make contact with him was from a mutual friend and they were both in Brussels going to school there. And so that's where he was at the time. Um, so he wasn't, uh, you know, he wasn't calling in from Syria necessarily, but, um, but yeah, I mean, I, I think his family was still there if I remember right. And who knows how much he was, he was traveling there and, but as far as I know, he's, he's a, okay. Um. So that's good. And well, I'll, I'll keep an eye on it, but.

0:13:10 Thomas: Uh, we don't, we, we don't remain in communication or anything. So just sort of the, of those Facebook acquaintances, you know, that you kind of see around. But the reason I think about Nenar all the time is because, a, it was, it was really, it was really interesting that the time I actually did physically meet in an hour briefly when I went, when we went to Brussels, it was a really cool, he seemed like a super cool guy, every interaction with him was was awesome, but what's funny is I totally disagreed with him about Syria, like, because he, he took on a like conspiratorial stance about the, like, whether or not Assad had used chemical weapons on his own people. And he took the point of view that like, no, he didn't, because it wouldn't be worth it, you know?

0:13:59 Thomas: And here's all the, and we got into these discussions and arguments. I think we were like messaging, messaging. I think it was after he came on. Anyway, it, it was all cordial and everything. But it was like, yeah, it got into a 9-11-esque territory, you know, where we were like, okay, but the inspectors went in and they said, here's the thing, and da-da. And then, you know, he's got the, like, photos and the, you know, well, actually, it didn't melt the beams here. And like, I hate to poison the well that much, but it kind of was that. Like, this is, I will say this is not as straightforward a case as 9-11 truthers, I'm not saying that it actually is, a, more, it's a more ambiguous case because we don't have all the information and it is, you know, it's difficult, but like, when the UN inspectors go in and and conclude, and you can kind of see why they concluded, like, yes, he used chemical weapons on these people here, you know.

0:14:53 Thomas: It's, it is kind of a conspiratorial stance, conspiracy theory minded stance to be like, nope, they are lying in order to da-da-da. And, you know, I don't know what our prior, some, you know, prior, I guess, your priors should be on that, you know, I, I don't think it's likely, and, and again, I want to emphasize it's not as as bad as saying that the build, the planes didn't hit the building, whatever kind of thing, I shouldn't use that comparison. But when we got into these photo evidence thing, it felt, it felt like that, like really trying to a part, like grainy photos of evidence of, no, this, this is where the thing landed. And this is, you know, and I was like, I, okay, I, and it's weird because, because he's from Syria, it never, I was really trying not to argue with him. I was trying to just say, oh, here's the source.

0:15:38 Thomas: Can you tell me about that? You know, kind of thing. I really didn't want to, you Know, I just, I didn't Want to like be really trying to fight with him or anything. Cause it's like, okay, this is his home and all that. And so I want to emphasize that it w it was more like I I would ask him like, Okay, what about this? Do you, what do you think of this article? It seems like they have proof here. And I would just kind of let him tell me what he thought about it. He seemed happy to talk about it and he stood by it. And he even acknowledged, I can't remember if this was in the show or not, but he even acknowledged like, yeah, everybody, and this is what has stuck with me. And this is why I'm saying all this. He said like, yeah, everybody in Syria is conspiracy theorists. You know, do you remember that? Was that in the show? I don't know. I think it was.

0:16:19 Thomas: It Was either in the shower, in conversation. I think he was in the shell. And he said, like, yeah, when you have a breakdown like this and you have, you know, a dictatorship, and et cetera, et cetera, everything going on there, it's like nobody trusts any information. You don't trust institutions. You trust whatever. And this was, you know, a long time ago. And it was amazing how much I've changed, my feelings of like, it couldn't happen here too. It definitely already did happen. You know, like, I don't think we've reached quite that level. It'd be an exaggeration to say we've reached that level of distrust broadly, on average, as a society, as what he described. But I definitely see us on our way there. And a

0:16:19 Lindsey: Don't remember, I mean, oh.

0:17:06 Lindsey: Yeah, yeah.

0:17:06 Thomas: Significant portion of the population is already there where they don't trust anything they read and can't, you know, like, they just, they just don't, it's weird too because the way he described it, it's a very understandable thing, I wouldn't even put like a moral judgment onto it in the way that I would say like, yeah, QAnon, you know, they're just fucking full of shit, whereas what he described is like, yeah, when there's a societal breakdown, you know, and there's civil war going on, like, you actually can't really trust much of what you're hearing from either side. And it's a whole different scenario, you know? And it really, it's really stuck with me ever since, like, God, I hope we don't get to that point where there's almost no institutional trust anywhere in the entire media atmosphere. But it does sort of feel like we're on our way.

0:17:55 Lindsey: It does.

0:17:56 Thomas: Well, I just talked at you for an hour. So if you have any thoughts on that.

0:18:00 Lindsey: No, no, that's good stuff. Yeah.

0:18:03 Thomas: All right. Well, anyway, glad he seems to be doing okay from what I see on Facebook. So here we go with General Contact Unit Problem Child always has questions and we always have answers.

0:18:14 Lindsey: Speaking Of Societal breakdown.

0:18:16 Thomas: Yeah, this question. Yeah. Am I being realist or am I catastrophizing is the first sentence, which is always a good sign. Suppose Manchin can't be persuaded to break the filibuster. And by the way, cinema with no voting rights bill, red state state elections will become shams. And because of this, the GOP will take both houses in 2022. 2024, Biden loses the presidency to a Trump-style Republican, or Trump, by the way. Once in total control of government, the Republicans will install even more voter restrictions that will effectively mean one-party rule for the foreseeable future. With total control of the government and the courts, the GoP will do everything they can to suppress worker LGBTQ women's POC rights. How far this will go is hard to say, but it may well involve actual genocides.

0:18:18 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:19:04 Thomas: Last week, I read a load of articles about the Manchin deadlock, and I started wondering what might happen if he can't be moved. And I came up with the above chain of events. I honestly can't decide if I'm just catastrophizing or if everyone else is just not admitting what's actually at stake. Well, I've talked a lot. Why don't you take this one and I'll follow you up.

0:19:23 Lindsey: Yeah. No, I, uh, I think that those concerns are valid. I feel like I, I, I live in, in, maybe it is catastrophizing, but it really doesn't seem all That far-fetched either, either. Don't know. I try not to live in that space too much, because then it just sort of becomes like paralyzing, essentially. So I don't know, I think it's useful to sort of operate in terms of what you're doing in the context of, you know, elections and doing get out the vote stuff and fundraising and all that stuff. I think that, you know, keeping in mind the potential stakes here can be helpful in mobilizing people, um, but other than that, I just, I try, I try not to live in this place too much because it's, it's just, does it, does feel too big. I, I don't, I don't think that this is necessarily just catastrophizing, it seems like it really could go this way, and that's, uh, that's a lot to grapple with. Yeah.

0:19:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:16 Thomas: What I will try to do with this question is at least put a few finer points on some things, I'm very worried as well. And I'll tell you why. And maybe this will make people more worried, I don't know. I'll just like, here, I'll put some more specific thoughts on this stuff. So I do think, and this is the ultimately most devastating thing, I really did think Manchin would eventually give up his bullshit crusade for voting rights bill, I thought that would be something that would be worth it to him to stop this nonsense, but It seems as though it isn't. I'm just in disbelief. I mean, that's such an important, and Cinema as well, I mean, any state, it's not really red states that matter, it's purple states, you know, like red states are red, we're fucked on those, but it's more the marginal states, it's the ones that were, were. And actually, it's states like Georgia, Arizona, states that are barely blue and popular support, you know, popular vote wise are blue.

But because of the already existing gerrymandering and all that, they control like the state Congress, often like the state houses. And so we have all these situations where voters turned up, especially in Georgia, voters turned up and elected, you know, two Democratic senators in Georgia and like other equivalent things, like they, maybe it'll be a governor, maybe it will be whatever in these different states.

0:20:48 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:21:38 Thomas: But they weren't able to, Democrats weren'table to take the actual state Senate or House or whatever the state level Congress, because of the already broken, broken systems that Republicans put in place.

And so therefore, those legislative bodies controlled by Republicans who who didn't win majorities or whatever, have been totally fucking over the, you know, whether it's whether it was Wisconsin with what they did with Evers or whatever, where they pass all these laws after the fact that make it so the governor can't do anything because the people elected a Democratic governor. It's that level of thing. So it's those states that are barely blue or barely maybe barely red.

But but also that's the ones where it hurts the most, is states that we flipped, like we flipped Flip Georgia. But because it's so close and because they still control state government, they're going to try to undo that and they may be successful. And it's really, really depressing. So I would say here's the thing, though, that doesn't apply in the Senate exactly. I mean, it may. So it will. So gerrymandering doesn't obviously you can't gerrymander a whole state, but the Senate system itself is gerrymandered in a way. So it already favors small red states, obviously.

And also stuff like the voter ID laws and all that stuff that's being passed in red states. You know, maybe that'll affect it. There's actually reason for optimism somewhat. I mean, not that we should ever sit here and be like, it's OK what they're doing, not to say it would ever be considered OK what they'redoing, but studies usually show that the backlash against voter turnout,

0:22:23 Lindsey: Right.

0:23:15 Thomas: You know, like voter restriction, that kind of stuff, voter suppression efforts, usually kind of counteracts, pretty much like it's usually a push, like people get mad about it. And so they vote a little more, that that is that's what the numbers have indicated. There's again, not to say we shouldn't be worried about it, not to say it's not disgusting what they're doing, but if you want a reason to hope, I guess I'm offering that like it has shown that these these efforts don't work, and especially when you think about the vote by mail stuff in Florida, like that was designed for Republicans, you know, that all these things are doing to target vote by male. Yeah, okay, more Democrats voted by mail during COVID but like I don't know.

It's not a guarantee that these things don't hurt Republicans also a little bit. So if you want a reason to hope, you know, again, not a reason that it's not fucking awful what they're doing, but a reason to hope that maybe it won't accomplish the evil that they're trying to accomplish, that would be it. And so I would say that I think we're pretty much fucked in the house unless we get an amazing turnout, because as they already pointed out, just with gerrymandering alone, with the same voter turnout as 2020, we would lose the house just because of what they can do with gerrymandering. And so that's like, what, four seats, five seats. And so we have to overcome

0:23:54 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:31 Thomas: That to keep the House. The Senate, I'm a little more hopeful for. I don't know that we'll lose both chambers, as the question said. So again, I's a little ways to try to be slightly more optimistic, but on the whole, I m not way more optimistic. But I think If I had to bet right now, I would say we lose the House in 2022, but maybe barely keep the Senate, which is weird. It's not usually how it works. But I think because of the favorable Senate map for that specific election, that may be a time where we actually control the Senate but not the House. So that helps. I guess that doesn't really... Yeah, no, that makes no difference. But it would make a difference in 2024 if we lose Biden, because having one branch of government, having one chamber, whatever it is, to stop the bullshit does make a massive difference.

0:25:25 Thomas: And so hopefully in 2024, either we could win the House back or we could, you know, keep the Senate under the under my scenario. And that would stop an enormous amount of harm. So, again, small, small things, things I think we can, we can perhaps stop the worst things from happening for a few more years, you know, possibly, um, did you have some thoughts? Yeah, you're

0:25:40 Lindsey: No. No, I mean, I think that ultimately we're on the same page there, then, you know, I mean, the the midterms are worrying for for a variety of reasons, but um, but yeah, no, I mean, I didn't know the stuff about the studies about there being like a backlash to, um, to suppression efforts, so if that's true, yeah, that could work in our favor, and that, you know, so I'm back at the same place, I want to maintain enough concern to do what we did in 2020 and keep doing that, um.

0:25:51 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:12 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, well, and that's the thing that's so tough about it, is sure, the numbers say that that maybe it cancels out, but you still have to make a big fucking deal about it, probably the reason it canceles out is if we make a Big Fucking Deal about it and say, look what they're trying trying to do. They're taking away your vote and, you know, and try to try to fight back a little bit. It's it's so awful. I mean, I really I really am worried. Oh, here's the other thing I was going to say. I think that the GOP may not necessarily maybe. Well, God, it really depends on 2024 and who they're running and if it's Trump or somebody else. But they're they've already won in that they have the Supreme Court, which already ruled that gerrymandering is OK.

Like that's already You know, like, yes, they could pass some sort of national thing, but I don't know that they would, you know, like that, like a they would need control of everything, which maybe they'll get. Maybe they won't. But also, you Know, if you remember, even when they did have control of everything, it wasn't an anything goes scenario as much as it sucked.

0:26:21 Lindsey: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

0:27:15 Thomas: You know they couldn't even repeal Obamacare and yes they were able to get their shit together to pass a bunch of bullshit tax cuts for rich rich people, but because that's the thing they love the most. And again, this is why it will depend on how, how completely Trumpism and the big lie has taken over. And I'm, I'm not at all confident in this, but I'm saying it's, it's possible there will be enough Republicans who are like, no, we shouldn't be passing federal elections rules that will make states do stuff that they don't want. You know, like there may be enough of those, you know, you only need a few of of them in a 50-50 Senate to not pass a bill like that. And so, you know, again, tiny reason, tiny reason to hope, you Know, they weren't able to do a whole lot under Trump because they can't agree on certain things.

0:27:22 Lindsey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:27:52 Lindsey: Well, I'll take what I can get.

0:27:58 Thomas: Yeah. So, but yeah, I mean, the fact that the court has ruled that the states that want to do this at a state level can just do it, that is, you Now, obviously been been devastating. So I don't know. I think the only thing really that we can do is try in some some fucking way. I don't know how to keep the energy up for 2022. You know, like we need if we have a turnout on the level of even like 2018, which was really good for an off year, you And if the Republicans just don't quite maintain that Trumpian energy, because Biden is honestly kind of bland and it's hard for them to hate him as much, that could be a different story. But we have to do it. We can't be sitting around saying, ah, voting doesn't matter and Biden's actually a Republican. It's not going to work. I mean, you may be right about certain things and I have my giant criticisms of Biden and all that, but like the only

0:27:59 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:23 Lindsey: Of course.

0:28:58 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:28:58 Thomas: Fucking way to stop disaster is to, is to not let the Republicans win everything. It really is. I don't know. It's the worst position to be in. Uh, any more thoughts or should we, uh, talk about hating America?

0:28:59 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about hating America.

0:29:14 Thomas: So Another one from General Contact, you know, Problem Child. I've heard you say you hate America several times. Whose side would you take? Do you think you take if another hypothetical power invaded the U.S. because of the terrible stuff your government does. Remember when the Trump admin pulled out of the Paris Climate Agreement, I remember thinking, if only there's someone strong enough to invade the U.S. and force them at gunpoint to do their bit to reduce climate change. Whenever I hear American leftists say they hate America, I always wonder what they'd actually do if they had to choose between letting a foreign power roll over America for the greater good of humanity or defending their country and way of life. Basically, I think it's really easy to say you hate your country when you know there's no chance of foreigners invading your country because they feel the same way. Like suppose the leftist Martians or whoever are passing through your neighborhood on their way to Washington. Do you really believe you'd say, well, they're doing the right thing overall.

0:29:14 Lindsey: Yeah.

0:30:01 Thomas: Better let them maybe blow up our houses. Well, um, there's a lot here. For one, yes, a lot of us are pretty negative on America, but I think it's interesting to examine how much differently you would think about this if we said it any other way. If it was us taking over China because of what they're doing to Uyghurs, you'd be like, oh, no, you can't, you know, why would you do that? You can't take over. But like all of a sudden, if you're talking about another country trying to take over us, you're you're presenting it as though we're being, or I'm being inconsistent if I wouldn't root for another country to invade by saying I hate America. And I don't really think that's, I, if that, if that's kind of where you're coming from this question, I don't think that's valid.

0:30:47 Thomas: I mean, you can say you hate what America is doing and hate a bunch of things about America, but also say, yeah, it doesn't work to try to take over the highest military power. I'm not rooting for a war. That's not going to work. So, yeah.

0:31:04 Lindsey: Yeah. I don't want anybody to ever blow up any houses. I'm not cool with that regardless of whose houses they are. No, but you know, it is kind of an interesting premise though, because like if if you could imagine like a more peaceful intervention, I don't know that I would feel that bad about it if there really were some leftist Martians that were just trying to do us a favor, um.

0:31:08 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:31:24 Lindsey: I, I don't know, would I would I really care? There's... there's plenty of things about the quote-unquote American way of life that I don't think are particularly worth preserving, um, but what's implied if you have, you know, foreign intervention in that way, is that like, well, maybe I don't have any confidence that whoever's invading is going to be better than than what we have going on already.

0:31:23 Thomas: Yeah, the Martians were right.

0:31:46 Thomas: Yeah! Right.

0:31:47 Lindsey: So, I don't know, it depends. No,

0:31:49 Thomas: For people who hate America, and I express a lot of hatred towards certain aspects of America, it's easy to get carried away with that. But a lot, like for for example, a lot of our racism, you didn't, America didn't invent racism, you, we were in a pretty unique position, there's a lot of the, for example, European countries that are very homogenous, or, you know, smaller countries, and so I feel like we assume they're not racist because they're super homogenous, and we don't, you know, they don't have as many marginalized voices that we hear from, but if we were able to listen to those voices, I'm sure it'd be like, yeah, no, no, it's racist as fuck here.

We have even less of a voice because there's so few of us and people like I, that's been my experience in in finding out about, you know, like looking into certain things, like the racism involved in soccer in Europe, like like it's it's pretty god awful everywhere. Like racism is a huge problem everywhere, I think. And I think it's more about how much the conflict becomes visible by, you things like how much diversity you have. I think racism is a pretty human universal, in my opinion, and there are things that can make that conflict more apparent and more visible to you. You that's kind of what I think. And so I'm

0:32:01 Lindsey: Yeah yeah Yes.

0:33:01 Thomas: Not of the opinion that, yeah, America is racist as fuck. I'm NOT of the Opinion that if some other country took over, they'd be like the super cool, no racial problems country is what I'm saying.

0:33:11 Lindsey: I, I, that was what I was trying to get to as well, yeah, yeah.

0:33:13 Thomas: Um yeah in so many words, I'm trying to get to that, um, and uh, let's see, I think I had another thought, but yeah, I, oh, when you brought up like interventions, yeah, you know, if some other, if the whole rest of the world, I was trying to think of things I would be in favor of if the whole rest of the, the, you know, awful, uh, let's say, I don't know, income inequality, wealth inequality, or something, some issue like that, or what you're, or what America is doing to the climate or something. If they were like, like what we've done with, with other countries, sometimes, if they were like, hey, you know, you're wealthy people, America, they don't get to travel to this kind of, to your, the European Union, like you're not, you're not allowed here, or, or we'll freeze your foreign assets, or stuff that we do sometimes to other countries, I actually would be like, yeah, cool, fucking freeze Jeff Bezos's foreign assets, that's awesome, do that, that'd

0:33:23 Lindsey: That Sounds

0:34:09 Thomas: Be great. I know. So there are things where I'd be like, yeah, do some interventions that might actually, you know, hurt, but but it is tough, because often the quote unquote, like, economic sanctions that we do on other countries just end up totally fucking common people over, like, just, you know, not the dictatorships, not the whatever, and so if that happened to us, I'd be, you know, that would suck, but It with the more targeted stuff that's like, yeah, you're, you know, for example, the royal family of, you know, whatever's whatever country that's a dictatorship, like you're not allowed to have a vacation home and, you know, in in the states, like that's an intervention where I'm like, yeah, sure, do that, that's great. Sorry.

0:34:09 Lindsey: Good, let's do that, yeah.

0:34:32 Lindsey: Yeah, I'm On board because

0:34:52 Thomas: All right, well, I love this next patron and you will, we'll go to McAnouse. I know it's a weird pronunciation, but it's because of the Fleet Foxes song. And so I love that name. With a vision of a, you know, something. I'm not good at lyrics. Gentle host? I don't know what he says. Anyway, in regards to the activist Supreme Court, I wondered how much more specificity could limit them. For example, with the ACA, if it specifically stated severability of different sections? Would it have prevented them from potentially ruling one way? I can see that having to account for that might also burden the already slow process of enacting laws, but what can you do otherwise? So actually, Andrew mentioned something about this the other day on Opening Arguments. So if we did want to fix this problem, we can do jurisdiction stripping in a bill. So it's actually totally constitutional for Congress to say we're passing this bill and the Supreme Court can't review it. And I don't know how that fucking works, but Andrew said it.

0:35:12 Lindsey: Cool.

0:35:59 Thomas: So I believe it. There's something about like because I believe Congress establishes the courts and the things they'll look at, you know, and that's why we can do court packing. That's why all these certain things are constitutional, constitutional. And I believe it's also part of that is we could pass a health care bill and say this is out of the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. And somehow that works. I'm not sure why we haven't done that before with stuff. Maybe it's like, it might be one of those things that's looked at as an extreme measure, you know. And so I mean, maybe politically it wouldn't be that great. So maybe that's why we haven't done it in anything before. But he said that's a a possibility. So I'm going to go ahead and say if we could possibly get enough Democrats in the Senate to pass a good health care bill, we should do that.

0:36:49 Lindsey: I, I would not presume to have any better answers than Andrew or you, so So sure.

0:36:52 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, no, I've just deferred Andrew on that one. That's what he said. And I think it sounds right. Want to talk Christian socialists? Let's see. Trying To see how much time we have here. All right. Guess who? General contact, problem child. How do you feel about Christians? Socialists. Do you think there are really people out there who are socialists because of what they read in the Bible and wouldn't be socialists anymore if they stopped being Christians? There's an agnostic left-wing Twitch streamer I follow who gets annoyed when me and other atheists complain about religion in the chat. He'll sometimes bring up people he knows who feel compelled to volunteer at food, not bombs. I don't know what that is, but I'll assume that's the, there's nothing's capitalized. So I think it's thing. Anyway, food, not bombs, because of the stuff Jesus supposedly said about helping the poor and wealth distribution, redistribution. I mean, do you really think those people could read something like God, the Failed Hypothesis? And if they were convinced by it, they'd suddenly say,

0:37:01 Lindsey: I Mean

0:37:49 Thomas: Well, I guess I got my weeknights back. Now I don't have to help people anymore. Uh, what do you think?

0:37:58 Lindsey: This feels like the same as the, the whole thing about, well, how, how can you have morality if you're an atheist, like, I think, I think that a lot of these kinds of things are people sort of telling post-doc stories to themselves about why they think that that certain things are good, but like, yeah, no, I don't, if somebody is doing that kind of stuff and and feel strongly about it, I don't, I would not predict that they would act any differently just because they became caveman atheist. That doesn't make any sense to me.

0:38:23 Thomas: I agree. And I think that you'd have to look at, you know, usually speaking generally, if there is someone like this, I would imagine it's because they were raised this way. It's part of their family belief, maybe their little community belief. And so it might be, it's probably a much bigger picture thing than just, oh, I read this line in the Bible and it said, do this. So I do that. You know, it's probably like an ethos that, you know, has been a part of them and their identity for a long time. And so for that reason, I don't know that it would be, or yeah, I don't know that it's reasonable to say like this one belief. People are more complicated than that.

You know, I think as you say, it's, it might be more of a post hoc thing or even if it's not exactly post hoc, even if you could say that these passages in the Bible are the origin of this charitable behavior. Like I still think it's more involved than that it would have been because the passages or the whatever, like that is important to how they they grew up and their religion, their family and their church, like that would be what I would guess. Like it would be more of a broader identity. Um, so I wouldn't be too worried about that. Good.

0:38:45 Lindsey: Yeah. I Do think you can, think that there's a stronger case you could make here, though. Like, I really do think that being cooperative and kind and caring about people are just basic human motivations. And, you know, I think that that's why you see some of the same basic things come up in all kinds of religious and non-religious ideologies about how to treat people. So, I don't know. I mean, maybe post hoc isn't quite the right way to describe that. But I don't think that those motivations go away just because something about, you know, something superficial about the worldview changes or something like that, or your supernatural beliefs change.

0:40:04 Thomas: Yeah. Whereas I'm sure, and maybe Christianity isn't this, but, uh, maybe I don't know other religions that have more like small rules you have to follow, you know? Um, maybe that's something that would go away, you Know, if it's like, all right, well, I don't have to eat fish on Fridays or whatever, you know, like that stuff.

0:40:23 Thomas: Um. But like, maybe it wouldn't. I okay. It's been good to not eat fish on Friday. Um, so yeah, like I could see smaller things, but yeah, the more broad, but you know, the other thing I want to say about this question is this is what bothers me the fucking most about Christianity is how much, if they actually followed the example of Jesus, how much better the world would be. Like, it just drives me nuts. I mean, Jesus is so absolutely clear in, in the Bible, in in the gospels. It's like, nothing is more clear than that. Jesus fucking hates rich people. Like it's the most, you know, I made a big deal about it with my old Bible show, but I was actually kind of in disbelief about it is he's just like, and another thing, fuck you rich people like all the time. He's like I don't know how I can make this more clear.

Fuck rich people, fuck rich people, and then somehow now in the year of our Lord 2021, they're like, I think he wants us to to be really rich, I think what he's saying is get, help me buy this private jet, and then I'll, you know, it's so amazing. Or if not even the prosperity gospel people, even just basic Christianity, you know, where it's like, you know, low taxes, that's the way to go, no

0:40:16 Lindsey: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah?

0:41:35 Thomas: Safety net, that's what my Lord and savior Jesus Christ would want, fuck the poor, am I right, don't give health care to anybody, it's, it's the, yeah, it's the way they've convinced themselves of that. And, and they have convinced themselves that like, if you ask them, it is like, they have, they've come up with a personal responsibility narrative, I think, or like, um, am trying to think, I think I have asked my family about this a little bit. I am like, hey, don't you think Jesus would do that? And it is like, I think they are all, they are so much more, as I alluded to in the last episode as as well. There's so much more about like this personal character thing. Like, no, God wants us to be a certain way. And if I, you know, just give money to you as a handout, give you some health care, then like that's, you're cheating.

0:41:42 Lindsey: Classic Jesus. Yeah.

0:42:20 Lindsey: And that's the neoliberalism piece, I think. And I haven't gotten far enough into this to talk about it, but I'm reading, I'm starting to read a book called Family Values, where they talk about, like, those specific ideas about, you know, personal responsibility and accountability and handouts are going to destroy people's character, how that merged with a religious right.

0:42:39 Thomas: Yeah, totally.

0:42:40 Lindsey: So I'm excited to get a little bit more into that, it seems like.

0:42:43 Thomas: Now that I've realized that when people are saying neoliberalism, what they mean is conservatism, then now that I'm like, yeah, totally. Um, because that's pretty much seems to be what that term means. Uh, so, why Buy a Tesla When We Can Just Move the Moon? Maybe there's more charitable position, but isn't drafting legislation, banning critical race theory, literally the substance manifest of critical race theory. Can we talk about this for a minute? I'm not exactly the brightest crayon in the box. I'm at best a half foot machinist, but it seems very obvious to me. Well, You

0:42:51 Lindsey: Yeah, I had exactly the same thought. It is so ironic.

0:43:18 Thomas: Don't give yourself enough credit. Why buy a Tesla when we can just move the moon? Uh, you're right on it.

0:43:24 Lindsey: Mm-hmm. No, totally right. I mean, yeah, this is exactly the the kind of stuff that critical race theory is trying to draw people's attention to. It couldn't be more ironic. Mm-hmm.

0:43:32 Thomas: Really couldn't. Critical race theory, as we, uh, you know, discussed on the previous episode and learned more about, is like, hey, uh, I think perhaps structural racism has been a problem in our country and, like, it's filtered into all these things, including the very things we learn about, like. And that was a big, uh, in the opening arguments version of the, which, by the way, you should listen to, we did a two-parter on critical critical legal theory and critical race theory, um, and a big part of that, one, the critical legal therapy part, it's so interesting if you haven't listened, I strongly recommend it, uh, listeners, because it's like, yeah, they figured out some. Some scholars who started this movement were like, hey, we're not even learning about these cases. These aren't even in our casebooks, like these really racist ass cases. They'll just say like one sentence about it. Oh, America. And so the movement was like, let's start teaching these and start teaching the full racism of them because just whitewashing it is not great. And

0:43:37 Lindsey: Yeah that was really good. Mm-hm yeah yep

0:44:29 Thomas: Also points out the power involved in being the people deciding what's in those textbooks. Textbooks, you know, that's a major source of kind of a hidden power that maybe you wouldn't think about in society, but yes, when white people have been in control historically, have been control of what actually goes in the textbooks and shapes, you know, our knowledge and definitely shaped my knowledge growing up, even even in the 90s when it, with, you know, I think people thought in California thought they were being fairly progressive with it, with education, probably, you know. I didn't grow up in Texas or something. We learned a lot about Martin Luther King and stuff, but we didn't learn about so much of these key things that's really important. And so the point is, yes, yes to exactly what you said.

0:45:15 Thomas: The idea that you would ban critical race theory from being taught is precisely the thing that critical race therapy was invented to say, hey, look at what's happening here. And they're like, here, let's do the exact thing that you're saying is happening.

0:45:21 Lindsey: Yeah Yeah, it's, it's bananas. I can't, I would

0:45:33 Thomas: And especially, look, look, I don't know if you've kept an eye on these people, but I have not kept as much of an eye on the people I used to all the time, which is like the, I dunno, the Douglas Murray's and the Steven Pinker's. Like I said, I look at them here and there, but I haven't, I'm saying I haven' checked them out enough to fully know what they've said on this, but what bothers me so much is how much they went with the, know, intersectionality and the identity politics is the downfall of Western civilization because they're not like, remember, call it the university is a place for ideas and the strong ideas that channel blah blah and all the exact shit, I know I've done this rant before, but like all the exactly shit they were saying about how this leftist whatever, this progressive whatever, this wokest thing was going to ruin everybody because we're limiting speech and da da da and that directly, directly leads to this moment in which conservatives are literally banning knowledge in schools. Have they said anything about that?

0:46:31 Lindsey: Be very interested to know the answer to that question because I'm guessing no.

0:46:36 Thomas: I'm guessing no as well. It's frustrating, the lack of awareness of what they directly contributed to, but whatever. Well, Why Buy a Tesla When We Can Just Move the Moon has another question. This one's interesting. I've seen the same stuff. Let's see. Don't want to wear out my welcome here.

0:46:38 Lindsey: Yeah yeah. Oh,

0:46:55 Thomas: You read it between people, ostensibly lefties, who are pushing to lift mask mandates, hinting at some sort of Darwinian hellscape where they get infected with COVID. What? Can we talk about some of the very legitimate medical reasons why some people can't get the vaccine and why this type of thinking is so dangerous? I think here there's a little more that may clear this up. Quick sidebar to this. Can we also touch on the fact that the FDA is part of the executive branch of the United States government. So saying things like, I can't believe you trust the government. I'm not getting vaccinated until it's FDA approved is utterly absurd and ridiculous. Okay. That might have been a side. So you were, you were trying to say something. What are your thoughts?

0:47:18 Lindsey: Yeah So I read this a couple of times because I am not positive that I, that that I understand, but, like, I think what they're describing is that, um, some people are saying we should lift mask mandates so that, uh, you know, these idiots who are refusing to get vaccines and have not been conscientious about mass and stuff, all die from COVID, is that the idea

0:47:52 Thomas: I see. Yeah. I think that, that could, that seems like a legitimate read of this, this comment. Yeah.

0:47:54 Lindsey: Yeah Um, I don't know, that feels gross to me. I I I, I, when I, when I see stuff like this, it really, it bothers me because it's, it's the kind of infrahumanization that you see on the right so much. And, like, I don't want to lose track of the fact that, um, everyday people who are Republican in this country are, are not assholes, right? Like, generally speaking, the leadership is terrible. There are a ton of people who aren't perpetrating awful stuff on this country, but they're perpetrating it on their own, you know, constituents as much as everybody else. And so, yeah, this kind of thinking really bothers me. I

0:48:02 Thomas: Yeah. It's tough.

0:48:36 Thomas: Yeah, I will confess it is hard not to slip into sometimes when

0:48:40 Lindsey: Get it. I do, yeah.

0:48:41 Thomas: You, you, yeah, when you see how frustrating people are about the vaccines, I wish we lived in a world where not, not out of some vindictiveness per se, but I wish we lived in a world where it was a one-to-one like you don't get the vaccine. You are the one who gets sick. And I wouldn't say that because it's like, I want all of them to get sick and die. But I would say it because then it feels like the consequences would change their actions. Like they, you know, and like their assholery would just lead to bad consequences for them. And then maybe enough of them would be like, oh, this isn't working out.

Let's get the vaccine. Like, I will admit that I do wish that would be true. But yeah, it sucks that like when you talk about, and I think you're right on with the read of this question, you know, when they say reasons why some people can't get the vaccine and why the type of thing. Yeah, no, that does seem to be what they're asking. And it's, yeah, that's what I always come back to. The people from the very beginning of COVID, the people who I felt the worst for have been the immunocompromised, you know, where it was just, you know, early on, we're just like, oh, it's just going to be old people and immunoconformist people dying.

0:48:57 Lindsey: That seems like a very different sentiment to me, yeah.

0:49:45 Lindsey: Jesus.

0:49:45 Thomas: That seemed to be the national, like, you know, that was the national dial. A lot of it was like, yeah, it'll be fine. It's just old people. Like Republicans were literally posting stuff about how, well, the only people who died or people are going to die anyway. So it's, you know, it was fine. And you're like, okay, okay.

0:49:46 Lindsey: Yeah I saw that. It's awful. It

0:50:00 Thomas: So the immunocrompromise people, I think, have really been neglected in all of this. And I bet it's been really fucking sad for them. I imagine, you know, and I, I think I, you know, I have a friend or two. In fact, I know I do. I haven't talked to them in the midst of all this, but I have friend who's immunocompromised, can't get the vaccine. And, yeah, like, that fucking sucks. But at the same time, talking practically speaking about policy right now, I don't know that we could just keep mask mandates indefinitely because of immunoccompromised people, like, like there, there would need to be a calculation of, like, when this makes sense. And I don't know what that calculation is, you know, like, but, but again, I think that, I think that when we had a big argument, did I do a show about this?

0:50:49 Thomas: God, my mind is ruined with the, yeah, the CDC and the thing about vaccinated people. Yeah, I think that people like Eli were proven right about that. You know, like the science has shown that vaccinated people are really, really protected and don't spread it and all that. And, yes, there is a there's legitimate concern about, yes. People are going to just lie and say they're vaccinated. But the persuasive. Yeah. OK. We talked about all this. Do you feel like that's been vindicated?

0:51:21 Lindsey: Seems that way so far. I mean, my, yeah, my, my, I didn't feel emotionally prepared for it when they, when they did sort of, you make that revision to the guidelines, but, um, no, I'm fully on board, I think that was the right decision. And, yeah, but I don't know, I didn't address that part of it because it really, it felt more like, you know, is it cool that lefties are like, let's, let's eugenics out all the right-wing people

0:51:29 Thomas: Mm hmm.

0:51:43 Thomas: Yeah. God, would that we could. Good. Would that it was a one to one relationship again of this person makes a bad choice. So, you know, and the consequences, then there's already problems with that, as you've already said, like it's hard because they're being victimized by assholes, you know, in some ways. But but sometimes when it comes to vaccines and the public health crisis that anti-vax stuff is, it's really hard to not get pissed about it. Like there are times where I'm just like, all right, fuck you. Get a disease. If you're anti-vax, get a disease because like apparently that's the only thing that may convince you. I don't know. It's it's really hard emotionally to deal with.

0:51:48 Lindsey: Right. Yeah oh yeah yeah yeah I did not want to imply at all that I am above that, because I am not, um, but in my better moments, you know, I, I try.

0:52:29 Thomas: Yeah, no, I agree. I agree, I disagree. All right. Let's, I'm going to end with this Windy City Roger question. What are some good SIO or other Thomas and Lindsay pods or other their show pods it would be good to get Uncle Frank that reachably, uh, tight, I think it means, I think he means right, that reach, reachably right, right, like right-wing hypothetical person, from OA up to speed when they wince about privileges, systemic racism, other boomer red scare terminology wars seem to be going on these days? For example, the OIA, the OA dives of CRT and critical legal studies, along with SIO 266, Why Sam Harris Is Wrong About Police Killing, are two that I'm putting in this Uncle Frank recovery and rehabilitation pod starter pack. Are there any others? I have thoughts.

0:52:31 Lindsey: Yeah yeah that's a good

0:53:18 Thomas: Do you have thoughts?

0:53:18 Lindsey: One. I do, I do. So this isn't about like, I mean, it's about a slightly different kind of issue, but I'm really proud of the two-parter that we did on the end of gender. And I think that we covered a lot of ground there that successfully counters a lot of this kind of attitude that Roger's talking about here. You already brought up that you're wrong about the stuff that they've been, the series they've been doing on cancel culture and how that's sort of history repeating itself. I think that those are pretty accessible. Um, I don't, I don't know, like, how reachable this hypothetical person would have to be to listen to that, but I don't know. Um, and then the Robert Evans Behind the Police series, um, yeah, again, depending on how reachable, I think that's pretty accessible, too, for sort of laying out the evidence for systemic racism in policing and the history of that, so that series was super impactful for me.

0:53:27 Thomas: Oh yeah, me too.

0:53:47 Thomas: Yeah, exactly.

0:54:12 Thomas: Remind me, was that a separate pod or within the Behind the Bastards?

0:54:17 Lindsey: It's in the same feed as Behind mind the bastards, yeah.

0:54:18 Thomas: Okay, gotcha. I got to check that out. Yeah, so the only thing I was going to say about this is yes to everything you just said and to the recommendations roger said but also I don't know I think that it's a very different rhetorical stance you take when you're trying to actually reach this hypothetical reachable person versus not and I don't at all pretend to be in that stance a lot, you know, like, I think that it's hard because the way you'd have to be for that is hard to do. It might be frustrating to people who are far on the left who are like, why are you soft pedaling a bunch of stuff? Like that can be tough. And sometimes I'm in that mode, but I don't promise to always be in that mood. So I don't, don't think there's a whole lot of content on here that is that, but I think you bring up good, good ones.

0:54:20 Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah. Um, When I think about this, like, hypothetical, somewhat right wing but reachable person, I'm actually thinking about myself from several years ago. And you know, I, I think that there is a lot of content that you have done over the years that was instrumental in getting me to re-examine my positions on a lot of things, and I think it's, I think that the the kind of approach that you use to these topics a lot is like, I mean, you're not, I don't think that you are soft peddling a lot of the time, but you're also like laying out a case that's incredibly defensible and it's hard to argue with. So I don't know. I actually do think that there's, there's quite a bit in the feet of the show that could be helpful to people.

0:55:35 Thomas: Well, shoot. I guess I will. I have no idea what to say. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad. I think maybe it could also be that you're a very smart, reasonable person.

0:56:07 Lindsey: I don' think I'm that special.

0:56:07 Thomas: Yeah. I don't know. You are a scientist, so a little bit special.

0:56:16 Thomas: Well, thanks for saying that. Yeah, maybe. Cool. Maybe that's, yeah. I absolutely am probably not the best gauge, the best judge, the most barometer for how I myself am perceived. I have no idea. Or the arguments are the things I'm saying. Really, yeah, so I'll take your word for it. Thanks.

0:56:32 Lindsey: And yeah, in one, one addendum, so I, man, I wish I'd looked this up before we recorded. But, you know, in terms of like the moral panic kind of stuff, like some of the older episodes about like Evergreen and the number of those things, I think, I think really are could be incredibly helpful to people in that position, just because of the amount of lying that goes on around these cases, um, so

0:56:51 Thomas: Yeah, well, that's Good. I think what, what, what happens in my brain is, I do the Evergreen stuff, by the way, you know, one of the first on the fucking scene for fighting against the Brett Weinstein, by theway and bullshit evergreenstuff uh, and I get, I think, all, I, and this is a very big problem that I'm, I'm trying to deal with, what I saw after that was a bunch of Weinsteen stands, stands, talking about how much I was a liar about his stances and all that. And so I think in my mind, I'm like, oh, that's what the average, you know, Weinstein sympathetic person will do. But I think that's actually probably not correct. Like, I think if you're talking about, you know, someone like you were or somebody where it's like, Oh, I heard about that seems like, you know a bunch of crazy kids did some fucking things. And then you hear a breakdown, you're maybe you're like, oh, maybe it wasn't that simple. And it's only the extreme Weinstein stans that are coming up here trying to yell at me.

0:56:54 Lindsey: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know. I think that's true, and I think for, for most people that are, that are sort of in that, that reachable place, it's like it really is just about sort of taking bricks out of the structure that they've built, out, built up one at a time until it just collapses. And yeah, I don't Know. Agreed.

0:57:49 Thomas: Okay. Wow. Well, what a hopeful note for this. Episode 300. We brought it around. That was a great episode 300. What a good message to go out on. Thanks so much, patrons, for asking the questions. Thanks so much, Lindsay, for being a co-host. And I'm looking forward to another. I can't believe you and I have already done 300 episodes. No, wait, that doesn't sound right. We've done some amount of episodes together and I've loved them and I'm looking forward to more. All right, everybody, we'll see you next time.

0:58:11 Lindsey: Thank You, Me.

0:58:27 Lindsey: Too.

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