SIO261: A Monster Island Follow-up

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:27 Thomas: Hello and welcome, Serious Inquiries Only, this episode two hundred and sixty one. I am Thomas, and this not the episode before the election, as some of my other shows have been already. I plan on doing something more directed at that, um, hopefully like Monday, so that it's in time for you to still listen to it before Tuesday. Uh, but before that, though, I wanted to do a little follow-up.

I had a lot of people write in that they were fascinated by the Monster Island episode with Aaron, and kind of coincidentally, there also was somebody who had responded to Aaron's characterization, someone who was also in the group, someone coming from kind of a different background, different experiences, who had some things to add, maybe some things that Aaron didn't quite capture, and I thought it was perfect to be a chance to get the story from someone else's perspective, who was also there but is coming from a different background than Aaron and would have maybe seen different things. And since people really loved that first episode, anyway, why not do a follow-up on it. So here we go, here is Chris on to talk about his experience on Monster Island. Chris, how are you doing today?

0:01:38 Chris: I'm really well, Thomas, how are you?

0:01:40 Thomas: I'm doing great, thanks for asking. So, yeah, why don't you tell us your story? Let's start with, do you mind giving us a little background, especially around the time of, you know, whenever this group started, kind of what was going on for you in your life and that kind of thing?

0:01:54 Chris: Sure, sure, yeah, so I'm, I can't, so, I mean, it must have been around, you know, obviously, just a little bit before 2016, I remember sort of getting this invite, and I can't remember from where, but I got this invite to this group, and when I got in there, it was just, you know, it was the idea where I was sort of enmeshed in other debate sort of groups. And then this other one was kind of going on.

And the idea was, if I remember correctly, that we were just going to get people from different perspectives and we're going to kind of go at it a little bit. And so I was like, OK, you know, I'm pretty down for that. Let me see what's going on and so like so I'm a I'm philosopher by training, but I don't but I'm not in I'm not in the academy. I don'T work in I mean, I work in academia, but not in academia, I should say. So, so, you know, I have a lot of sort of moves, and I guess, you know, like all philosophers, I know the names of all of the sort of, you know, within the discourse. So I wasn't going in there to like do that, I already have enough of that. So I was just going in to like have these discussions and be in this place.

And so, you know, we kind of got going, and then I think the sort of the regular people very quickly sort of stood out, and there was a regular cast of characters. And, you know, I think it was the sort of typical, like, hot button issues, issues that, but, you know, uh, you know, so we just sort of go at it about these hot button

0:02:35 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:03:06 Chris: Issues and stuff and

0:03:07 Thomas: Do you mind if I ask for background, kind

0:03:08 Chris: Oh, certainly, yes, so, um, I'm all kinds of leftists. Like, I'm pretty, uh, like, so, so, uh, like, I think I'm probably the the toxic left person that that Aaron may have been talking about. I may have been that person because lots of times people would come tag me, and then I would, I would sort of come in and be like, oh, we're not even, you know, we're not even even having a discussion anymore, we're just slinging shit. And so that's, you know, we would just, that's what would happen, that's what we'd go down.

And, but, you know, I think, you know, I think sort of one thing that's worth sort of talking about is there's a, there's a difference between sort of being at the fight and sort of be an in the fight, right? So, and I think the distinction is something like, if somebody says something that hurts you, then you're in the fire.

But if somebody said something that you, that that doesn't really affect you, or, do you know, doesn't affect sort of a group that you're a part of, you're sort of just at the fight, and you can respond at the fight in sort of a ways, but when you're in the fight, it's, it feels a little bit different.

0:04:03 Chris: It feels a lot different. Um, um. I mean, if you're, if I, you know, you don't, you know, there's, there, there harshness and stuff, but, uh, you know you do have to walk away from those things and it's not just an instant process. Like, ah, you know, he can just cut out. You, you might stick with you a little.

0:04:16 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's totally valuable distinction. Do you think, though, that there's kind of going to be different levels of that? You know, it might be, you might be at a fight in some ways, but, like, let's say something's directed at your kids or something, that's not you, but you're, right. I'm in that fight, you know. And and I would, I would also argue that that could, that could vary.

Like, it could be issues that are anywhere from completely not going to affect me to going to affect people very personally in my life, and I still wouldn't go so far as say that that means I'm in the fight. Like, I would take gay marriage, for example. Like, I have so many gay people that I'm close with that I get very emotionally distraught when I think about what's happening with the court and what's going to happen to them.

Granting, of course, that, you know, my marriage won't be, be affected, but I would still say that there's like going to be a spectrum of I guess I just didn't want to think, like, being at the fight doesn't mean you don't care or aren't personally affected in some ways. Would you

0:05:10 Chris: Right.

0:05:10 Thomas: Agree on that? Or, okay, sure.

0:05:11 Chris: Yeah. I think that's absolutely totally agree with that.

0:05:14 Thomas: Cool. So, um, what was your mindset of going into this group? You mentioned it a little bit, but, um. Are you looking for an outlet or, you know, to just kind of be able to, to, uh, like you you said, sling shit at some people who deserve it. Or are you looking, was there a genuine thought of like, I'm going to change someone's mind or how are you approaching it?

0:05:34 Chris: Yeah, yeah. It was definitely like a place where you just go to ramble. Um, so one of the things that was kind of good about the group, I think, while there's still some sort of cohesion, you know, lots of the group members are still friends. And I think it's because people were kind of funny. There was a like kind of a high quality, um, there wasn't a, there wasn't you know, um, there wasn't a person who just regularly misspelled all the time, you know. There wasn't like there wasn't too, you know, the discourse is pretty okay. Um, people were kind of funny, they would bring up sort of interesting topics and sort of get into sort of nuanced things, um, bad as they were, um, but it was also just a place to sort of ramble, so it really was an outlet to, uh, you know, just go fling this stuff around. Yeah.

0:05:37 Thomas: Okay.

0:06:09 Thomas: There, are there any experiences that you want to talk about? I know there's some rules about like, I don't want to like reveal anybody who was in it or anything, but are there any interactions that come to mind or things that were either good or bad that stuck with you?

0:06:22 Chris: There was one, there was this one time, uh, actually I should say this too, so, so one aspect of the group is that there were just so, first off, uh, we haven't, I haven't mentioned anything like, women haven't been mentioned, um. And other genders of folks have not been mentioned, um, so it wasn't all guys, there were, there were a couple of women in there, um, and I would like, there, if, if my perspective is good, there's... there's ought to be illuminated as well or sort of highlighted, um, but there was like four Black people, like four Black guys in there. And we were regularly sort of in the thing. So I should say that.

0:06:34 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm.

0:06:54 Chris: I had this, so one of the sort of, one of the regular bad sort of actors and I were having a discussion one time. We were sort of just going at it as usual. And we both got banned at the same time, right? And then like after, you know, a week later, it came back and he must have just got back right around the same time. And then we sort of commiserated. You know, we we had, we had been sort of, you know, gone through the rough struggle stuff. And then we sort of like, once you get off the hot button issues and you're like, you know, actually like, how's your family? Like, what's your life like?

When we get into those discussions, the whole tone of the place sort of changes. It sort of becomes the grounding of what Monster Island was, was there, there was like a ground level where people weren't like doing mental health check-ins or anything like that, but people would sort of talk about non-hot topic issues and sort of bond and stuff. But then there was definitely like a lot of like beefing and stuff that was regularly that happened.

And so once we figured this out, we had a good like chuckle and a good laugh. And I think we're actually still friends on Facebook about that. We don't talk much.

0:07:05 Thomas: Huh.

0:07:54 Chris: So, yeah, but that was a funny example of things were rough.

0:07:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.

0:07:59 Chris: But yeah,

0:07:59 Thomas: What do you take from that? I mean, are there people, I mean, we, as was in the article, now I wasn't privy to any of this, was involved in the group, so I know I'm coming at it from total outsider, but from the article that Aaron wrote, you know, obviously one of the members ended up, you know, involved in the Rittenhouse shooting in some way, at least, uh, that, you know, it's kind of going to be disputed in the courts, but it seems pretty undeniable that he was, he was involved in someway. And you think like, okay, well, that's a person I won't, I don't want to be chumps with, like, fuck that guy, I'm not going to like, you don't know, come on there and be like, "How's your family?" Is there, do you, do find that maybe there are different, um, stages that people might be at, you know, some people might have bad views, but you may be able to reach them in some way, and other people might just be like containment time, like we need to not even try?

0:08:48 Chris: It's a good question. So for a lot of people that were sort of the bad actors in there or, you know, people were not who were opposite for me, there was just no, that's at some point they were, there wasn't ever going to be any sort of connection. But I think for some folks, there was, and it's hard to put my finger on, like, what was it about this particular person that I'm speaking about in the last example that would make me want to sort of get off the hot topic issue and have, like, a human discussion, you know, because we definitely had, you you know, weren't doing good humaning sort of when we were hot, you know, hot topic in it. So, You know, it's hard for me to say what the, what the deal was, but I'll say this, so I come from a sort of a pretty conservative, like, a blue collar sort of traditional sort of family. And so, like, it's a lot like talking to my uncles in a way, except for these, I could, like, say everything that I needed to say to these people, right.

So, but and I still talk to my uncles, not as often, and we don't, you know, they, you know, they don't really want any of this that much because I sort of have given it to them enough in real life, but, um, but we still, you know, we're still family and we're still sort of connected in that way, and I think, um, I think another way of sort of talking about this was that a lot of folks, come, were veterans, there were a lot of veterans in the group, and

0:09:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:09:56 Thomas: Interesting.

0:09:56 Chris: Self-included. Like I'm one of those folks, and, um, I think that there might have been a sort of a rough housing sort of military flavor of going at it that was sort of, that is also a good way to characterize how, um, how sort, sort of contentious the group was.

0:09:56 Thomas: Yeah.

0:10:09 Thomas: That's interesting, I mean, I know there can be some pretty toxic military culture, but it sounds like you're on, on the other side politically Of that yeah yeah

0:10:16 Chris: But yeah, I see what, as soon as I got out, I like, yeah, I'm completely, it's hard for me to even imagine that I was in the military, honestly, in my life. It was, you know, but it paid for college. So yeah,

0:10:26 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so much to talk about, what were some of the issues you wanted to get off your chest regarding this group there?

0:10:34 Chris: Yeah. You know, I wanted to say, you know, sort of the distinction between being in the fight versus at the fight was one of the things sort of, you know, to sort of give an analysis of that group without sort of talking, saying anything thing about anybody's emotions is sort of, short, sort of misses a big, big piece, I think there was a lot of emotions stuff going on in there, um, because, you know, people were not definitely being technical in their arguments, you know, so there, I think, a lot of emotion stuff that really, there

0:11:00 Thomas: Wasn't any a lot of formal philosophy going on, a lot of a lot a lot, variables and, like, all those weird letters that mean stuff that I don't quite understand

0:11:04 Chris: Was not, there was not. Yeah, and if you shut up like that, you know, then you get what you get for that.

0:11:12 Thomas: Hey.

0:11:14 Chris: But yeah, so, there was, yeah, there's something about the emotions that probably, that ought to be addressed, and I'm probably not the best person about that, I can sort of, like, say what, you know, what the flavor, you know, I can talk about the intensity of the emotions, but I'm not really sure that I am, that I know where everybody was really sort of coming from to get into the group, and I've asked a few sort of other members that I'm connected to, like, you know, what was kind of going on, and, um, and you know it was really, um, uh, there's some, there's something about how people were feeling and being in that space too and bringing up the topics that they sort of wanted to, um, and I think that there's something analogous to sort of what's going on in the United States overall, um, something's going on with this.

0:11:49 Thomas: So when you talk about kind of the emotions that are going on, you know, not having been there, and I know, you know, most of the audience wasn't there, what do you mean? Do you think that there was any, was there any trauma inflicted in this group, do think? Like, are there people who had really bad experiences? Experiences.

0:12:07 Chris: That's a good question. I think that there probably were some people who came in, saw what was kind of going on, maybe stepped in a little bit, and they were like, this really isn't for me, pretty quickly.

0:12:18 Chris: There was probably that. And then there's probably, like, some people who sort of wore out pretty quickly, because there was definitely, you know, a good amount of people who were sort of in and out. I also, myself, at a certain point, was like, man, I'm sort of tired of that discussion. It was just, you you know, it was always toxic, and it was always, you could definitely get caught up for a couple hours just going back and forth, and at some point that's just not a good use of time. Even if, you know—even if it was just an outlet, you know? You don't need to—I'm not going to go to the gym for more than like an hour and a half, you know, and get out my working out. When that's all done, I'm tired for the day. So there's that. But it's— but I think all of that sort of captures sort of the—what people maybe went there to do emotionally and other stuff, but there wasn't, you know, there wasn't nice.

0:12:59 Thomas: Yeah, I mean, this was definitely, you know, a voluntary thing, right? I mean, no one was like forced to go in this group, and I I've seen some people in the wake of that episode, I saw some comments like, you I know, from, for example, Aaron's perspective, you people didn't need to go if they didn't want to, and I don't think, I just didn't wanna leave the audience with the, with the feeling that, like, this was was something anyone was roped into doing. I feel like, do you think it was pretty straightforward and at least honest with what it was and didn't try to rope anybody in that shouldn't or didn't want to be there?

0:13:35 Chris: Yeah. I think that's fair. I mean, I got tagged in sometimes and then like, I'm just the kind of person who will just engage, you know? So, but I don't know how often that happened. I mean, and there was other times where I like tag, I would tag like the other black men in the group. And then I'd like, see, this is the thing, you know, I'd like white people were whiting again or something like That. And then we all come in and have a laugh about it. So there was definitely like some group, you know, there was some gang sort of stuff going on there, um, uh But

0:13:54 Thomas: Oh, that's an interesting distinction between being in the group versus people tagging you into conversations at times. I guess I didn't think about that. Yeah.

0:14:03 Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I would totally get tagged in, and then I'd, like, read up a little bit, and I'd be like, okay, I see why I got tagged in, then I would know what I needed to sort of do, like, I need to do it roasting, or sometimes, you know, sometimes we would have sort of factual stuff, some of us knew some things, and so others of us would know that, know some of the stuff, we would tag people in for, you know, not expertise, but like, you know, so and so knows some facts about crime or something like that, we would talk, um, a little bit um, before, you know, before it dissolved into, you know, whatever, ever, yeah.

0:14:38 Thomas: Well, so what else, you know, you talked about maybe the emotions not being covered. So did you feel like Aaron's analysis or something left something out that was a part of your experience?

0:14:52 Chris: There was, there's another thing sort of, um, there, so, um, I had a sort of a quibble with, uh, with sort of the analysis in that it didn't really, it's sort of like two-sided, it was like sort of like the bad state that journalism is in now where we're like we have to have two sides to every story, right, um, it's, it was, this isn't one of those two sides to the story kind of thing.

Like there wasn't like the people on the sort of left-leaning folks were not like saying, you know, we were, when we were being me, and that was a different thing, but like about the issues themselves we weren't like being anti sort of human, and I think that the the people from the right were in every instance being anti-human, and so like that characterization got left.

Like so if left people were saying toxic stuff, it was definitely, um, the point, if you know, those would be sort of aside from the actual points in the proper, you know, know, the proper part of the discourse, and um, and so, you know, you could say how, so saying how bad one group is doesn't, we didn't have to say like how bad, you know, I was toxic or whatever, but I was just coming in to say mean stuff. But but if we were going to actually talk about a topic, I would never be in the position of being like, we shouldn't have, like, conservatives exist, or, you know, I would never say sort of anything that would, um, make it to where, you know, they don't, that they're not at the big kids' table anymore or something like that, you know what I mean.

0:16:10 Thomas: So referring to both sides as toxic in a way that you think kind of maybe is the the typical false equivalence that we have, where it's like one side is coming at the arguments with horrific, you know, memes or whatever it is. And the other side is like responding in a way, not so much proactively trying to dehumanize anybody.

0:16:10 Chris: Exactly.

0:16:35 Chris: Like that, yeah, it was very, very asymmetrical in that way, right?

0:16:38 Thomas: Gotcha. Yeah, no, that makes sense.

0:16:40 Chris: Yeah, and like in in the normal ways that you expect, you know, sort of misogynist, sort of racist, every topic was either misogamous or racist, um, and or sort of like, um, um, or very closely you, to either one of those or both. Lots of times I remember we definitely had a discussion about black teenage girls, um, one time, that one was pretty rough and tumble, um, that one, that was one where I sort of, uh, where I left and I didn't come back for a little bit. Yeah.

0:17:04 Thomas: I wonder, yeah, people getting out of this? Do you think, you You know, is this a, it sounds more like a place where some racist can say some racist things and like, try it out, you know, like, or, or was there, was there some learning on anyone's part? Do you think from your view?

0:17:14 Chris: Yeah. I'm not sure that there was any learning on anybody's part, and it really was just a place where racist people could go be racist and be out loud about it, and nothing will ever happen except for we're gonna call Chris and he's gonna suggest the dick off, and then everybody, you know, we'll crack, we'll, and then we'll devolve, we can talk about the dick off by the way it

0:17:35 Thomas: I don't know what that is, but I assume you have a trademark in it now. I am guessing. Yeah.

0:17:38 Chris: Is open source, yeah.

0:17:41 Thomas: Okay. Oh, okay. No, that's very, very big of you. Big dick off energy. Yeah.

0:17:43 Chris: Yeah. And and that's Right, no, well, it was just, a you know, it was a an online sort of pissing contest resolution tool, right, is a good way to sort of characterize it, um, and, uh, and, you know, we would sometimes play but not ever get to the end. So it say say, I'm not really sure what people were getting out of the group. There, there was some cool people in there though. You know, so in a way there was sort of like team playing where I'd go like, oh, I want to go, you know, have this discussion with my friend Derek, or see what he's talking about. Um, or, you know, or anybody who's, youknow, these, that's just, you know, whoever else is in the group, and to go to my buddy and, and either back them up, or see how they're arguing, or see what they're talking about, um, there was, you know, that was one way, one reason to go in there. Well, that'd be a reason why I would like answer the answer, my calling, whenever I get tagged in, for example.

0:17:55 Thomas: Hmm.

0:18:31 Thomas: Well, maybe stepping back from the group for a sec, just maybe utilizing your, or drawing on your philosophy background and your kind of experiences and stuff, like, what do you think should be done? Because there's a broader problem that I've really struggled with. I still struggle with, because while I wasn't in this group, you know, I also, sometimes I engage on that kind of thing on Twitter, where it's just like, all right, fuck you, you know, like I just can't do it.

There's views that are just so obviously bad faith, or arguments that, that's what does it for me, where it's, it's that, and I notice it a lot on the right, which is, they're not, they don't make arguments that they believe in very often, like, maybe, maybe ironically, maybe Monster Island was a place they did, maybe they're like, yeah, I believe in this racist thing, you know, but oftentimes it's, they, they, it's trolling, I mean, it's making you spin your wheels, and it's them taking positions that they don't really hold to try to like make some rhetorical win or something, in a way that I just have no patience for anymore. And if anybody seems to me like they don't believe what they're saying, I don't give a shit about trying to change their mind.

I know I just spun off a bit there, but, like, how do you feel about, you referenced earlier, like, we're in some kind of weird way now, I agree.

Like, I've been, I've said from the beginning of this Trump stuff, his hardcore fan, fan base is, you know, x percent, 35, 40, whatever it is, and we've been, I think, largely what we tend to do is just say, well, those people are unreachable, those people, you can't reach them, and honestly you kind of can't, but I have from the beginning keep saying, well, what if that ticks up eight percent, ten percent

0:20:11 Thomas: Like somehow, and it hasn't, fortunately, but we didn't know that, you know, like, what if that ticks up to a percentage, and let alone with with the magnification of the Electoral College and these other bullshit minority rule tactics that they have, they don't need to be 51%, you know? So if it gets to the point where we have to try to do something about it, like we can't just ignore them. What, in your view, is that thing that we can even try to deal with?

0:20:38 Chris: Yeah, it's called Cascadia. So I know you're on the West Coast, and I think we just wait for the earthquake, and then BC, Oregon, California, Washington, we'll just be together like we should be.

0:20:41 Thomas: Do? Sure. That's, I mean, that's on the list of answers. That's not like the most absurd salute.

0:20:53 Chris: Yeah, you know, I think it's a really tough question right now, right? So I think sort of the United States has always had this sort of, has a tension about it, has always Had a tension about it. Anybody who knows anything about sort of the history of, you know, really 1800 to about 1850 knows that there was like all kinds of sort of bad actor political stuff that went on. And there was definitely like two groups of people that were that were going back and forth.

And the one civil war we had, there was certainly been a couple of times when we had approached that, right. And I don't think that we're anywhere close to that.

I think people are, are, okay here's what I really think I think that we are having big population issues I think we just got to a place where we're we're really really big population um you know it's I don't know what's going on in China and India, you know, how they sort of deal, but it seems like they're like past some phase where there's sort of like two groups that are going at it each other out of the time, and maybe it's more, maybe it's more tricky than that, for you know, for those two countries, but here we sort of had this thing and now there's enough people where sort of where the kind of violence, uh, that becomes intolerable starts, starts, it's gonna, it starts showing up right and it wouldn't show up when we were at like 20 million people you know it took you know 325 or 350 million people for these sort of bad things to really happen and it's true that we have to find like either new sort of ways of governing these things or um I don't know if breaking up is like a really good you know really an option or whatever but I think

0:20:53 Thomas: Hmm.

0:22:17 Chris: That the way that we're governed and sort of our political Political discourse really begins to matter more, I think, you know, when I know enough about sort of Indian politicians to where they're not, like, they got to play ball with a lot of different groups and placate a lot, and I think that people just maybe understand it a little bit, or they're not as worried about that kind of stuff, but here, people are still, you know, single-issuing it, you know, so single- issue sort of white Christian voters are, you the, they're the people that are, that are the squeaky wheel right now.

0:22:17 Thomas: I wish it were.

0:22:45 Thomas: Yeah. Well, do you, um, guess just in terms of trying to change minds, was there anything you learned from Monster Island? Was there, was that something you'd try, if, if you, if you had a mind to try to change someone's mind, and you come across somebody nowadays, is there anything you learned that you would apply, or is it, is it like, fuck this, I'm done with this?

0:23:05 Chris: So I've done this a lot, right? So I usually will start down a trajectory of either questioning or sort of like talking about a thing. And I can usually tell pretty quickly if we're going to get anywhere with the discussion. So there are some kinds of discussions where you're not going to getting anywhere about the particular topic, like talking about anti-vax stuff is a good example for me um so in my work, I direct a research ethics board, or a research ethics program, or human research protection program, in that work, I'll come, you know, you come, I do a lot of vaccine, there's a lot of vaccine studies that come across, and on the internet, I will come across anti-vax folks, and I'll inform them about my work and I ll tell them, you know, I see studies, you know, for like five years, I'll see all of the flu, all the particular flu studies

0:23:48 Thomas: Answer. You mean people are actually checking if vaccines work? Wait a minute. I thought we just injected whatever into everybody and then.

0:23:50 Chris: Yeah somebody's got to do this um yeah I'm literally, like, I literally looked at the ingredient list myself, or sometimes I'll make a, an update to the investigator's brochure, or, or all kinds of stuff that, that needs to be done, but yeah, so people are surprised that there's an independent review for things like vaccines, and I'll inform them of that, and then it usually sort of pauses the conversation, at least that part of the conversation. They never do anything about that. And so, you know, I may not, you know, about changing folks' minds. That may or may not be helpful. I may or May not get anywhere with them on that thing. But sometimes once we sort of figure out what you what I can't do, sometimes we'll talk about other stuff. Well, you know, we'll Talk, you Know, we'l talk about soft facts or, or other things from like the 30,000 foot view that people can kind of pick up on and take with them a little bit. And I think there's a slow nudging process.

0:24:45 Chris: I mean, there's nothing like, like sitting in a class to get informed about a thing, but everybody doesn't have, you know, the opportunity or the access for that. So sometimes it's just a really long, years long process of, of hearing information. And then, you know, not being able to resolve it in your head, you know? Like, I mean, either, either I'm very much a part of the Illuminati, and I'm very much reptilian and chilling for big pharma, or I'm just a guy who also has kids and cares about, you now, sort of the health of people and have the appropriate training to be able to do this kind of work, um, and that's, you know, that's what I get out of it, so I'm one or the other, um, and people can decide, yeah.

0:25:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. It reminds me of, I know I'm throwing a lot at you here, so feel free to feel free To decline any questions, but it does remind me like I, from my understanding of the research and stuff that anti-vax is such a great example, you know, know, because it's something that people are so fucking wrong about and dangerously so. And yet it does not work to tell them how stupid they are. You know, like it just doesn't.

0:25:48 Thomas: And it sucks for, you know, it sucks where people who are so frustrated and want to be like, vaccinate your damn kids, especially when, you know, you're like, it's going to affect them. Like, if, if you have a immunocompromised kid who's going, going to rely on, you know, some, like everybody else being vaccinated. Obviously, I'm telling you about something, you know, way more than I do. But yeah, like, you, you know, it's a very emotionally important issue on both sides of it. And so you want to be like, can you please just do the right thing and, like, protect my kids, protect your kids, that kind of thing. But, like, science shows that you have to, like, you have to validate their concern, you know. And that's what it seems to be. And so I want to ask you, that might be one thing when it comes to vaccines, it's, it's got to be another when

0:25:47 Chris: Yeah it doesn't, yeah, yeah.

0:26:35 Thomas: It comes to some of the, what, unfortunately, is very mainstream Republican racism now. You know, like, maybe white liberals like me hoped it was more of a background phenomenon like four or five years ago, now seems to be very present. It's weird to be like, okay, how do I validate, or anybody, anyone who wants to try to change minds, you know, regardless of who they are, how do I validate a concern about brown people? Like, that sounds horrible. What am I, what am I going to do to, like, make that connection? Is there anything, if you have any opinions let me know, but it's impossible problem, so I'm not trying to, you know, pin it all on you.

0:27:10 Chris: No I think that's thing, and that's, you know, that's a great sort of, um, you know, moving it over analogously into, into sort of the political, you know, space. Um, you're right, like, there's a question, like, do we tolerate these views? I mean, I don't, I'm like, I'm pretty hardcore about not tolerating, you know, anti-human dissent, but, you know, but there's the question, like, what's your concern, you know, if you do have these discussions and you ask, you know, I think a conservative, or anybody, like, what's your concern, you know, with, like, immigration?

And it's so plain, like, it is so plain, people are like, I think a lot of it is, you know, I work a certain kind of job, and the, when more people come, like, I'm already barely hanging out in my job, for example, or I think, like, um, not as a group or a class of people, but just individually, I'm barely sort of hanging out of my job, um, or I'm not, you know, I'm not doing the things that I really want to, I'm, this isn't the job that I'm really interested in, and other people have access to that, I can maybe see, you know, um, you know, it's not, you know, incoherent that somebody is worried about somebody coming to take their job, I guess, um, but, you know, it's sort of, uh, but it's just a misunderstanding by

0:27:24 Thomas: Yeah

0:28:09 Chris: And large about, you know, you have to, it's, you have to be, you know, being a citizen of the United States is, it goes a long ways to, uh, having a job in the United Sates, and being a citizens goes, you know, goes pretty well together, and coming from another country, it's so hard to sort of, hard to have other people's jobs.

0:28:23 Chris: I mean, for, for all of them, or at least the ones that people are really going for.

0:28:22 Thomas: Yeah it's so weird that those are, there are people, it's, oh God, it's such racist coded language that, like, it's, there are jobs that are our jobs and then there are people who are taking our job, but nobody's ever like, Hey, stop having kids. Cause they'll take our jobs. It's like, no, that's part of the in-group. That's okay. It doesn't mean like, do they think that population has to remain constant in order for there to be jobs? You know, like how does this work?

0:28:25 Chris: Yeah yeah

0:28:52 Thomas: What are you talking about? It unravels at like the slightest examination.

0:28:52 Chris: I feel, I definitely, that I know that my sense is that conservatives are really comfortable with, like, sort of static models of sort of economies and sort of how things are, one in, one out, um, yeah, and again, this goes back to, like, we're having, you know, I think it might be big population issues that we're, that we're sort of having um, I wonder, you know, Brazil is, you know, Brasil is sort of a peer country in terms of size and growth and stuff, and, and, uh, you know, it's not up on my, what's going on in Brazil still, but I wonder if they're having a very similar sort of things, you know, I know that they have a race dynamic, yeah,

0:29:03 Thomas: Yeah. That's funny. Yeah.

0:29:23 Thomas: Well, is it merely size Or is it, I mean, we, we really are the melting pot in a lot of ways. Like we're very diverse. I mean, you watch the Olympics and it's always funny Because like every other country, you can just tell who it is by the people who are representing them. And then the United States, you're like, no idea who, who knows? Like if, yeah, like, like it's, it's interesting. We really are so diverse. And like, I, part of me like cynically or, or pessimistically, I wonder are like, can, are humans capable of doing this? You know, like, cause it, especially with how bad things have gotten, you're like, what, what do we need to do to make actual change and to like deal with these massive problems? And I don't know that there are that many examples in the world of countries that are as diverse as we are, that are, and as big as we Are, as you point out that are necessarily a model for us, you know?

0:29:31 Chris: Yeah. You know, the rough latitude, yeah yeah, it's hard to tell who that want to be, even if they were, they'd probably, you now, I mean, yeah I mean yeah, you know in the United States is a pretty violent country, like we have a pretty Violent culture, and because our popular culture gets out everywhere, and I don't know, it's kind of a, it's weird dynamic for, especially, you know, we're just, you know, uh, I don't have any like American exceptionalism things to say, but we're kind of, we're kind of, you know, I would say this, we're pretty violent, but we're exceptionally violent, I'll say that in the world.

0:30:15 Thomas: Yeah. They have their own problems. Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. You know, there's something from earlier that I just remembered I did want to bring up. It's a little out of context now. But when we talked about the equivalence between left and right and all that, and I very much take your point on what happened in that group.

But I did wanna ask you, because I have noticed in my day, there does seem to be a, um, a type of leftist, not gonna, you know, I'm not saying everybody, but like there is a typeof leftist. Um, cough, usually white who does do a, um, an extreme anti-identity politics leftism. That's like, it's all about class. And like, I just saw one today where it's like Democrats are the party of like, they don't want to end the camps.

They just want more female guards at the camps and I'm just like, well, Now I don't, that's not fucking true, but also it's like a mockery of, of issues that are actually real, like, you know, it is okay to be like, why aren't there more women in any given position, like, it's not It's, it's, so, have you noticed any of that? And I, maybe not in this group, but like, in, how do you think about that? Is there, there, there is a certain leftism that I've noticed that, that does tend to be hostile to certain identity issues, that, that for me, I think they're just, they're just wrong about, personally.

0:30:41 Chris: Right. Yeah.

0:31:55 Chris: Yeah, they're really, they're, yeah, so at the, at the end of the day, and maybe at the beginning, we should start this process at the beginning of the day, there doesn't be need to be some sort of like line drawing, right? So, um, uh, all of the political configurations aren't going to work, um, and all of the ways that it can go, right. Right.

Like, so, um, you know, a social democracy with, or, you don't have in sort of a, you know, the flavor of democracy that we have, a Republic, you know, democratic Republic, um, but having socialism, sort of socialist sort of features, kind of goes pretty well. Right. Um, so but, so it, but it can go too far, being uh leftist, um, being sort of, you uh know, I don't know.

I actually don't know how those people like sort of get out of bed each day to be perfectly honest, because I'm like, if, if you're not, if we're not calling anything, anything, or we're not comfortable with sort of letting a, you know, giving a, providing a judgment about a thing or making a value call about a thing, then how are you getting to where you're going?

0:32:42 Chris: So I think, so there's sort of, sort of maybe a little bit of disingenuity sort of tucked in there those folks or, you know, because I can't hear like where their rubber meets the road in so many ways. So, you know, so for me, I have to, you know, there's some stuff, you know, I, a challenge, for example, if you, you know, your tax base is only so big and you have so many tugs on how you need to spend your money, I think something that leftist folks either don't do well, or we don't get enough credit for, being in that kind of conversation and saying, how should we cut up the pie and what should we do with our money?

And I think all leftist people are like, we should definitely cut the military budget, is the first thing that I think we all say, which is probably for, that discussion can be had. But at some point, you know, we, the car, the pie does have to get carved up, and there's not some perfect, you know, theoretical way to do this, there's just preferences, and it is a political fight, and we have to, you know, um, do absolutely

0:32:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:33:33 Thomas: We Gotta do some convincing, we had some, some arguing, some, some actual valuable argument. Though the Problem is like, uh, the Republicans have pulled off the such a con job of always saying they're for smaller budget and then blowing the fuck out of the budget, so once we get back in power, there's nothing, it's all been blown, it's uh it's gonna Be tough, I'm really worried about that actually, I mean, kind of a kind of a separate topic, but, uh, but yeah, like, what we have to just do a bunch of deficit spending, but like, we're already so in the hole from the stupid tax cut, that, uh, it's gonna be tough, so anyway, um

0:33:37 Chris: That's right.

0:33:50 Chris: I know. Right, yeah.

0:34:04 Chris: It's Gonna be tough, man, you might have to just eat a couple billionaires. I'm not

0:34:09 Thomas: Yeah

0:34:09 Chris: Advocating, I'm just saying somebody might there.

0:34:10 Thomas: Yeah yeah we Yeah, that, that sounds like some Monster Island, uh, leftism there, yeah.

0:34:15 Chris: You go, yeah, right. Right.

0:34:16 Thomas: So, um, what You've been very generous with your time, I really appreciate uh coming on the show, and everything. Is there anything left, unsaid that you want to say?

0:34:18 Chris: No, maybe just shout out to Aaron for, you know, sparking the conversation and keeping it alive. I haven't we haven't chatted that much. We'll get back to him. But, you Know, thanks for keeping it alive, Aaron. And, We're all gonna get where we're going.

0:34:39 Thomas: Uh Wow, well, um, thanks so much again for, for giving us your story, your perspective on that, and, uh, and sharing the, the patented, no, sorry, open source dick off, that's, that's interesting.

0:34:52 Chris: That's right.

0:34:52 Thomas: Is it on GitHub or something, like

0:34:55 Chris: It is not. It might be. It sure

0:34:58 Thomas: Chris, thanks so mucho for joining, I appreciate it.

0:35:00 Chris: Thing. Thanks, Thomas.

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