SIO243: Alix Jules

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 243. I'm Thomas Smith, and I am joined, so happy to be joined by Alex Jules. Alex, how you doing? I was gonna, I was going to say, oh, that was already a loaded question with just COVID-19 going on. Nah, it's even more loaded question.

0:00:40 Alix: Doing wonderfully, no, I'm not, but I'm okay, no I'm done, yeah, you know, no yeah, I, I am, I I'm healthy, family's healthy, so I cannot complain about that, but, I m doing okay, given what's going on in the world, and

0:01:03 Thomas: Sure, I just want to say from the outset, I cannot believe how long it's been since we've spoken on the show. I personally want to apologize to the audience for that because what the hell I looked, we were looking at the time and I've let it go two years and I feel so bad about that two years. I still don't believe it. That's fake news.

0:01:20 Alix: It, and you should, and should, because it's entirely your fault. Yes, absolutely.

0:01:22 Thomas: I, yeah, it is entirely my fault. I don't know what's, what's going on. I would have told you it's been like, you know, months. I wouldn't have said it's been two years, but I cannot think of anybody else I'd rather have on. Um, I am so glad to to have you. Thanks for taking the time. I really do appreciate it.

0:01:30 Alix: Yeah. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

0:01:41 Thomas: So question one, what the fuck? I don't, I don'T really, where do you begin? I mean, where does one begin with a time like this? Um, go.

0:01:53 Alix: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I am in Dallas. I was out on, I think it was one of the first nights that we protested down here, and we had thousands of people out in the street. It's only gotten significantly bigger. And we're not at all surprised. I mean, this has been bubbling and coming for a while now, right? I mean this is, I think the last time we spoke, we were talking about racial inequalities and injustice. I know that the backdrop and a lot of your audience does know and are aware of some of the racial inequalities and the police brutality and the many names who have, it's almost difficult to remember them all simply because, you know, they're all just a string of hashtags over and over and again.

And so I think we're seeing a result of an escalation, exasperation, and people are calling it the fed up horizon because people are fed up. And so I think we're seeing that displayed out in the streets. It's been great because it's not just Black Lives Matter and churches and Black folk that are going out out there and screaming at the top of their lungs, you know, this is not right. So, you know, the old idea of a rainbow coalition of allies going out there with us is very real.

0:02:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:32 Alix: And you can see it on social media as well. Is it enough to actually initiate real change? Only time will tell, right? But it's been good. I mean, we've got, this has been like really three deaths, right? So it's George Floyd, um, uh, Brianna Taylor and odd, right? I mean this is almost back to that, yeah.

0:03:51 Thomas: Yeah, I was going to make sure for the audience. Um, I wanted to make sure that if anyone's not aware of Breonna Taylor, I mean, just the most as egregious as it gets. And I wanted to kind of just hit that story real quick in case, you know, there may be listeners who haven't even heard about Breonna Taylor. I mean this is a case of an EMT worker, right? I mean in the middle of a pandemic, an EMT worker. This is definitely going to be an explicit podcast by the way because it's just too outrageous. So apologies in advance everybody. But there's no no way. There's no way I'm doing a clean version of this. She, so police, uh, in the dead of night beat down her door. Uh, they had, they, it turns out later, you know, they have one of these no knock warrants, which, you Know, pause on that for a sec. We'll get back to that. They, they burst down her, her, uh I can't remember boyfriend or husband either, either

0:04:16 Alix: It

0:04:47 Thomas: Way. I boyfriend, um, you know naturally is like, what the fuck is happening right now? Someone just broke into to my house. Uh, I believe he fired at them, uh, and they killed Brianna Taylor. Um, you know, because how the, how the fuck is he going to know who this is? It makes me so livid and it turns out, so she, she's dead. Uh, it's horrible tragedy. It's fucking terrible. And it turns out it was all about a drug bust that was like miles away. So there's, there's a suspected drug dealers, I don't, I know, 10 miles away, but apparently, uh, they, they, they speculate the way they got the warrant was they said that they thought one of the suspects was receiving packages at that address, you know, which I want to know. Okay, fine. Like if that's real, fine, why is that a no knock dead of night warrant, you know, like fucking, a like if that, that's really the thing, I apologize. I just get, I think people haven't heard about this one as much and I get so mad

0:04:48 Alix: Was boyfriend yeah yeah yeah

0:05:47 Thomas: About it, but like if, if If maybe a drug dealer is using someone's address to receive packages, they probably don't even fucking know about it. So, okay, maybe you talk to them, but why a dead of night? Ah, sorry. Anyway, that story is so fucking outrageous. I don't know if, if there's any consequences to that. And then you were going to bring up a third name, I believe. So Paul, go ahead.

0:06:10 Alix: Mean there was Ahmad Aubrey

0:06:13 Thomas: Of course. Yeah.

0:06:13 Alix: Who wasn't right, yeah. So, I mean, this is, and and all of them, you know, it's kind of easy to see how they're tied racially. You know, Ahmaud was basically stalked and murdered. Breonna, because of racial and systematic inequalities, that's an entire story in and of itself. Again, with the history of the no-knock warrants. But I think what really set this off for everyone one is the eight minutes and 46 seconds of George Floyd being suffocated to death with people screaming to get off of him. And then of course, George Floyd himself saying that he can't breathe again, again with, I can't breath, and even calling for his mom.

0:07:04 Alix: I mean, that's, that set everyone off And you had four officers. I think recently, just a few minutes ago, I saw it on the news that they've upgraded the charge from third-degree murder to second-degree murder. And then now they're also looking at charging the other three officers who really just stood there idly by. One of them looked completely frozen at the idea, but no one challenged him. I mean, this was egregious. You could see this. You Could hear him beg for his his life. And, uh, I mean, it was obvious when you, if you watched the entire video, they rolled him over and get up, got him on the stretcher and he was already dead.

0:07:47 Thomas: It's truly disgusting. Like, that's a fucking murder. And I, at least I'll say this. At least it seems to me that even Republicans who would normally condone this kind of thing saw that video and were like, all right, well, this is even too racist for me. Like, I think that, you know, but they still find a way. And this is my next question for you. They still find a way, of course, to try to discount and, you know, disqualify the protests and make it about something else. So let's talk about some of that. I mean, what was your, so you've been out there protesting, what's, what was your experience of that? Was it peaceful, non-violent, or were there, you know, uh, rioting thugs as in police, uh, who wanted to stir, stir up shit, yeah.

0:08:32 Alix: I, uh. So, um, yeah, I, I didn't get to experience. I didn't get to, I did not experience and witness some of the writing, I'd left before some of that, uh, that started to happen, uh, down in Dallas, but I mean, you know, it was, it was mostly peaceful. Police were have always been very aggressive, and if you, again, if you just take a look at some of the social media clips and videos that are being shared by protesters countrywide, I mean, really countrywide, well, you'll see Black protesters standing there, you'll, a white poster, protester, literally right next to them, and the white protester is literally being dismissed or told to go home while the Black protestors being handcuffed and taken to jail, or getting punched in the face, or being shot at, rubber bullets hitting them, etc.

0:09:27 Alix: So I did not experience that, I did see any of that, but I did police being very, very aggressive. Again, nationwide, we've seen local senators and Congress folks who have been assailed as well, dealing with the police. You cannot escape your blackness in this country. That's something that just is. And so when you take a look at a representative in New York City who goes out there to walk the streets with their constituents and they're manhandled by police, people will really remind mind you, really quickly in America, how Black you really are. It's like, yeah, it's nice that you are an elected politician or maybe even president. It doesn't matter. You're still Black.

0:10:19 Thomas: So, I, I don't, I don't know how to phrase it in the form of a question other than does a little bit of looting and violence disqualify the entire movement, Alex Jules?

0:10:32 Alix: No, I don't think so.

0:10:33 Thomas: Yeah, I wouldn't think so.

0:10:34 Alix: No, no, I know. I don't think so, I don't think. I mean, because there's always going to be something that is going to discredit, whether it is people who who are quietly and peacefully marching, but they are holding up traffic. We've had those arguments before when people are like, well, what if, what If there's always going to be someone or, uh, almost an instinct in America to try and discredit the protest. You're always looking for it. You know, kneeling was, you know, you were disrupting, um, absolutely nothing, nothing, but they tried to discredit Colin Kaepernick for kneeling. In fact, he paid a massive price. I mean, yes, of course, he still had money. However, that's not the point. The point is that America does not like the idea of Black protest.

0:10:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:11:26 Alix: America does not like to face its history, its facts, and the reality of the non-majority.

0:11:34 Thomas: What, what, what are ways, I don't know if you, you know, bothered to, or wanted to do any of this, but like, if, if you see those kind of arguments, if You see that kind of focus on, you know, oh, they shouldn't be doing this, or people shouldn't be looting or people, whatever it is, you know, do you have any advice for people trying to maybe argue back with those folks? What would you say to those kind of of things.

0:11:55 Alix: I don't know that there's a whole lot that you can say, except many of the protesters protesters aren't the ones that are looting and rioting, right? And there's always a quick equivocation there, right, because you'll, you know, you pan to the left, and you see a black person, and they're looting, and then you pan the right, and there's a white person who's liberating a cheesecake from the Cheesecake Factory. So it's just, I don't know if you saw that one, that one was kind of amusing.

0:12:03 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:24 Thomas: I didn't see that one, but that's fantastic. Are you saying the white guy is greeted as a liberator? Is that what you're saying?

0:12:29 Alix: Yeah, yeah, well, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, we do have different laws and different sets of language standards when it comes to black and white. But more importantly, when you take a look, we do have some very credible sources of people that are looting and destroying property who are not the protesters. We've gotten stories of white folk who are damaging buildings and sometimes they're white terrorists or white extremists, same thing, excuse me, that are attacking and trying to create the narrative that discredits the protest, right? Because they know how effective that really is. Right.

0:13:14 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. It seems to me that people, bad actors, racists, even police, by the way, know that this is what will happen. And, you know, I want to frame it the other way. I've been trying to formulate this argument and let me know if this makes sense. But could you possibly expect like Like, what kind of unreasonable standard would it be to say if if ever there's a march, a protest or whatever that that may entirely be nonviolent, like the people instigating it, the people starting the protest may be entirely nonviolent. We can talk about for a moment later if that if they even should be. But for the time being, let's say it starts totally nonviolent. Is it a reasonable expectation to say that if anywhere in the entire country, if there's any looting, if There's any violence, if there's anything, which may not even be the same people who are trying to protest, then therefore the cause is disqualified? Like, if you flip it the other way, like, how unreasonable of a standard is that to expect?

0:14:17 Alix: Yeah. With the level of anger, at least from the Black community, and I'm not discrediting other communities that are standing in unity or solidarity with the black community. In fact, I saw this wonderful haka that was being performed in New Zealand. So you have the Maoris and the indigenous folk there who were standing with, they do have a few African-Americans or black folk that are on the island, but I mean, everyone is marching, everyone is protesting. This has become very, very global because again, Again, these stories, although very unique to the United States, aren't truly just unique to the United State, right?

0:15:06 Alix: I mean, we see police brutality or authority taking advantage of the minority in places like the UK, where Black Lives Matter has also, you know, caught a little bit of fire. Same thing in places like Canada. Again, the protests aren't as large and aren't as swift or they don't get as much media attention because, you know, when you take a look at what's going on in America, it's so voluminous. I mean, we just get, get completely stomped out. And again, we have this long history of this, right? Systematic oppression and inequalities. But yeah, Yeah, I wouldn't, you know, I could not look at a family member and say, I can't feel your pain, I can't fill your rage.

0:15:56 Alix: And somehow, I'm going to, you know, try and set rules on, on after all of this, after all of this. I mean, I was, I was completely enraged. When in New York, I think it was Amadou Diallo where there was 41 shots, um, you know, that that took him down because he was, after being asked for his ID, you know, he grabbed his wallet and he got shot 41 times. I mean, there's stories like that that just completely pile up. So again, when is enough enough? So no, I wouldn't say, you know, hey, you may not want to do that because, you know, it's kind of hard to not feel like you want, want to pick something up and throw it. But, you know, it's not for everyone.

0:16:42 Alix: Not everyone's going to do that. And again, a lot of the protesters that are out there, and of course, not condone violence, but a lot of the protesters that are out there aren't the ones that are doing this. It's the other side that aims to predict that. I mean, we've seen on video, and I'm still waiting for the press to catch up on this one. We've seen, you know, pallets of bricks and rocks show up. There was a media clip just a couple of days ago. I saw someone sharing a video, again, on social media of police officers, you now, unpacking bricks and putting them in front of stores and buildings, et cetera. I mean, this, again, is a wonderful tactic that they've employed because we're not a country that's based on justice, right?

0:17:37 Alix: Let's completely dispel that myth. We are a country of law and order. And so, you know, the laws, regardless of how just or unfair they may be, and a lot of them are unjust, it doesn't matter. The laws of the land are the laws of the land. And as long as you are a person of color, you've got to adhere to them a hundred percent. I mean, there's no wiggle room, right? Just absolutely no wiggle. And when it comes to order, well, America's always had an order. It was written into the constitution when they decided at the very onset that African-Americans were only going to be fractional citizens, right? So, yeah. Again, I'm not at all surprised.

0:18:30 Thomas: Yeah. There's so many directions to go. You know, one thing I'm struggling with, and I genuinely wonder what your view is on this, because I don't know what to think myself. Part of me, my response kind of to people who are arguing about the looting and the blah, blah, bla. I've been, I don't give a fuck. Like I just don't care. Like whatever that is, is a distraction from the cause. It's a tactic we've seen, you know, you've already highlighted it. We've seen this every time.

It's a tactic to try to change focus. Oh, but look at over here, blah, blah. So that's genuine, uh, generally been my response. Like, I just genuinely don't care about that, but I'm almost to the point now with how outrageous this stuff is where it might, I dunno. And this is where I want to, I want to hear your opinion. Are we to the point where it's like maybe we do need that, you know, like, is that so much like, oh, that's not the protest or blah, blah, to like, well, maybe that's the only fucking way any white people are going to listen in this country is if, is if, you know, damage is caused. I, I genuinely am to that point where it's like maybe it's good things are being looted and burned. I don't know. What do you, you think? Okay.

0:19:34 Alix: Well, let me say, I mean, we've talked about the results, and I don't, you know, there's a moral argument to be had, but if we can cut straight to the results.

0:19:44 Thomas: Entirely.

0:19:46 Alix: When we've taken a look at just the founding of the United States, the United United States was based on violently overthrowing.

0:19:54 Thomas: Peaceful protest? No, absolutely.

0:19:56 Alix: Oh, I'm glad I wasn't drinking my water when you said that. Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, we have a history of violence and violence does have, although the retaliation when it comes to violence tends to impact disproportionately minorities in this country. The reality is when violent means are employed, just based on results, we saw what happened in Ferguson, right? We got immediate responses in Ferguson. Again, I'm not having the moral argument or justification for Ferguson, but the reality is what you saw happen wasn't because of peaceful protest. Same thing with Baltimore, the scrutiny that happened in Baltimore after Freddie Gray.

0:20:44 Alix: That happened only because of the rioting and the windows and property damage, what it takes. Because everyone likes to quote MLK about a riot is the actions of the unheard. Well, yeah. I mean, how many times do you have to scream, stop killing us, stop killing us or I can't breathe before you do something.

0:21:19 Thomas: I, and I think the same happened here, right, where it's like we didn't have any charges. Yeah, I think they got fired pretty quickly, but there are no charges for several days until these demonstrations, and then all of a sudden, magically, there were charges. It seems to be that maybe one of the reasons among many that, you know, the media and I guess mainstream white culture kind of focuses on the rioting is to try to discredit it, but also maybe they know it works.

0:21:52 Alix: Yeah. It's a shame, isn't it? I mean, it does take that sometimes, right? I means, it's not just the squeaky wheel, but also the smoke that comes with the flames, right.

0:22:08 Thomas: Yeah. Do you think a lot of what I've seen on Twitter lately does talk about how badly, you know, there are plenty of memes and plenty of examples of people white-splaining MLK to MLK's descendants oftentimes. What do you think, you know, is the biggest misconception there?

0:22:25 Alix: That's right. And they killed him too. I mean and they killed killing them too. So

0:22:29 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and they didn't support him by the way, back then, like nobody supported him.

0:22:32 Alix: No, no, of course. I mean, there's a tremendous amount of quote mining that happens with MLK. And MLK didn't live within a vacuum. The civil rights movement was not just because of MLK, there were plenty of additional voices, the Stokely Carmichaels, the Malcolm X, the Robinsons, et cetera, James Baldwin. I mean, so many names and different ideologies, by the way, and not everyone held a quote-unquote nonviolent ideology or approach to trying to liberate African Americans. So even if we just focus on MLK, despite being the most of of the nonviolent, despite only speaking out and promoting nonviolent actions and protests, that still was not good enough. He was murdered. So when you take a look at someone like Colin Kaepernick, he didn't get shot, but I've seen the death threats. I mean, list and list and list. I think people were setting their shoes and their property and everything else on fire because of Nike they were boycotting Nike etc and people were making public death threats to him just like they were with with oh what's her name Ruby Bridges, Ruby Bridges, if you, if you remember the story of Ruby Bridges

0:24:11 Thomas: Oh, I, I'm, I don't familiar. I don't think. Oh

0:24:11 Alix: Yeah. The little girl, little girl who brought her education, Louisiana, they tried to bring her into an integrated school. And, yeah, You remember the story? And what was totally just crazy about the story is they had to hold the location of which school that she was going to be brought into secret, because they knew the second that they brought her there, I mean, in education, I don't know how silent a protest is going to have, she showed up to get an education. And the second that she showed up, the school completely emptied out. No white, I mean, it's like a school of 500, completely emptying out.

Parents were like, I am not sending my kids, you know, into a school with that thing. So much so that you had parents, she had to bring a sandwich, a PB&J sandwich, for that entire year because one of the Secret Service members overheard one of their parents say that they were going to poison her food in the cafeteria, and they couldn't control access to the food. So you have this child who is dealing with death threats from adults who are seething just for her, because of her existence. Because it challenged an idea. It challenged the status quo. That's how much we have a society that wants to hold on to power.

0:24:25 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:58 Thomas: Yeah, God, what a story. And you know what? I want to remind like, you now, my white listeners here, like this isn't in, you kno, the 1600s or so, or like, You know, this Ruby Bridges is still alive and is 65 years old. She's younger. She's like 10 years younger than my parents.

0:26:14 Alix: Yeah, she's, she is. Yeah. So yeah, exactly.

0:26:19 Thomas: Like the idea that this is some bygone era, you know, and that there isn't still so much firsthand experience and pain from, you Know, forget about today for a moment, from the 50s 60s still alive, like living now. These people are alive now. Now, these people have had kids and have, you know, have raised kids under these like from their experience. Like this is so recent. It's it's it'S unbelievable that anyone could think this was all solved in 2008 when we elected a black president. Like somehow that

0:26:19 Alix: She's, he's younger than my mother. That's right.

0:26:53 Alix: Yeah

0:26:53 Thomas: That meant we were fixed.

0:26:54 Alix: Yeah. In fact, you're absolutely, you are absolutely right when when it comes to how recent it is, Ruby Bridges is younger than my mom.

0:27:09 Alix: And one of my kids and I got a chance to just sit there and speak with her not too long ago. Yeah, she's a very young woman in her sixties. And yeah, she was just like an older sister. So this is right around the corner when it come to our history, a blink of an eye. And um, her mom's still alive and so the parents, that, yeah, so the parents, the ones that were screaming at her, seething, some of them are still alive. Um, her teacher, the one that actually, by the way, it was interesting, what's really interesting about her story and big book about it as well, uh, she goes around and she does speak to schools and and does various charity events and talks about her story. But the teacher that they had to fly in, because no teachers in the entire district were teacher. None of them. None of them. They're like, nope, not going to do it. They had to flying someone from Boston who was regularly speaking to the President of the United States to ensure the safety of her and her student.

0:27:33 Thomas: Wow.

0:28:20 Alix: So her first year, you know, this was kindergarten, her first year, because she had been taught by someone from the East Coast, specifically Boston, the very next year, you know when the schools were integrated, everyone pretended like the year before didn't happen, by the way, just completely didn't happen, right? Because, you, know, the school didn't melt down or anything like that, and you It was the law of the land. She had a slight Bostonian accent. And so in the South, when she's talking to her teachers and some of the people, some of her peers, they were completely making fun of her, et cetera. So she had to deal with that for the year following. Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:37 Thomas: Wow, that's such an interesting story. Yeah. You know, I want to ask you about about the protests again. And I'm wondering how much do you think that as you've highlighted, you know, the three major stories current, you always have to, you know, side note that like the protests are about, they could be about any number of killings and they could be about all of them. And some of them are, I mean, I know a lot of people will write all the names on the signs of people have been a black men, mainly who've been murdered by cops, but not black men only, as we talked about Breonna Taylor. But do you Think this is about more than that? I mean, we're sitting at a time when, you know, coronavirus, it's been determined that it's going to be largely killing black people more than probably any other demographic.

0:29:52 Thomas: And, you Know, noticeably, the response, once the president found that out, I think the response changed quite a bit. I think once once the administration found out who was actually going to Be dying of this, all of a sudden, it once again, wasn't one is it wasn't a big deal. And not to mention unemployment, the 40 million have sought unemployment benefits in the last whatever month or two, just unheard of staggering numbers. Do you think it's more than just police killing? I mean, it's almost like maybe it's just we're fucking fed up, you know, with so many things. Things. Do you think it's about more than just police killings? And how do you think protesters ought to try to manage what is just such a massive amount of messaging, you know, that I'm sure they're trying to get across? Oh,

0:30:31 Alix: Okay.

0:30:44 Alix: So what did not help the president in this instance was the environment, right? It was a big, massive tinderbox because you have unemployment being an issue and you have the pandemic. And it's also really interesting just seeing the different images come in from across the country. New Yorkers with masks. I mean, everyone with masks and then you take a look at Dallas and it's like maybe one-tenth of them with masks, etc. It's like, y'all are just going to spike this number. But I think that people who have less to lose are really the ones that are trying to gain as much out of this, right?

0:31:36 Alix: Because if good white folks were employed and had more to risk versus life and limb, or they thought that they did, maybe we don't see the numbers that we do. I mean, that's just my opinion. But I think that with everything here, everything now, I think it's line for everyone. It's not just George Floyd. It is not just Breonna. It isn't just Ahmaud. This has been bubbling over for a really long time. Time. The message, I think the best message to rally behind, and this is personal, is Black Lives Matter. And everything else behind that, you know, kind of falls in line and aligns with that message because BLM has had an agenda that has been out there for quite some time, and it's eradicating, predominantly eradicating systematic inequalities.

0:32:34 Alix: So when you take a look at what that means, It's a class discussion. It's race discussion. It's gender discussion. But before we even get to the point where we can have an honest conversation about any of those topics, you kind of have to get beyond the point of people Distrusting the person on the other side. Now, I think we are far from that, right? Because you're not gonna ask me with a straight face to be in the same room with a police officer and trust them right now. I am middle class, fairly well educated, et cetera. And I have an earned mistrust of police.

I mean, one of the things that we've been talking about in social media, and I urge people to not stay stay off of social media right now. I say engage, engage because you're going to hear stories that you don't necessarily short attention span. So if we're to have this conversation, I need you to listen. I need you to really well. I mean, just listen to as many black stories and many black voices that you can, because you wouldn't normally get this because you're usually preoccupied with yourself, with life, et cetera. But one of the questions that, and I'll ask you this, Thomas.

0:33:32 Thomas: Good point.

0:34:05 Thomas: Oh, sure.

0:34:06 Alix: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the question that was posed was, when was the first time that you interacted with a police officer? When was the the first time a cop pulled a gun out on you.

0:34:19 Thomas: I've never had a cop pull a gun out on me.

0:34:21 Alix: I was 13.

0:34:23 Thomas: Okay, you win. Or I win? I don't know. Who wins? Yeah. Wow. Pulled gun gun out on you at 13.

0:34:26 Alix: I mean, I was at 13.

0:34:34 Thomas: I can't imagine that. I can't image how scary that would be.

0:34:36 Alix: Right. I was 13 and I had a backpack. I I coming home from school, but it was summer. So they just assumed that there's no way this black kid, regardless of that school, there's no way he goes to that school. So that backpack does not have books in it. Up against the wall, gun and all.

0:34:59 Alix: These are the stories that help shape a lot of the dialogue that, at least in the African-American community, just happen all the time. How many times have you had to have the talk with your kid about, you know, don't look at a white woman the wrong way. Make sure that that when you get pulled over by the police, don't move your hands. If you have a recording device, make sure that's already going. Don't look them in the eye. Don't breathe. I mean, if you have a gun, should you tell them or should you not, whether it's legal or not, because it may not matter in the end.

0:35:36 Thomas: Yeah. Second Amendment only applies to certain people.

0:35:45 Alix: So I would implore that the listeners engage on social media because you're are going to really get some raw stories now that maybe you didn't see or didn't hear in the past, and this is part of the education that you need to get, because we keep having the this this argument or this this conversation over and over and again, and people disassociate. "That's not me, that's not my friend, it's too foreign to me, or it happened 40 years ago."

0:36:21 Thomas: Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I was going to ask about that. Know, there was some sort of social media blackout thing yesterday. I think it only applied to yesterday. And you know, I know a lot of everybody. So many people are just trying to do what they can, and it's hard to know what the best thing to do is, but that struck me as as counterproductive personally, and and uh, it sounds like, it sounds like you're saying that that's not the not the way to do it. Hmm.

0:36:30 Alix: Yeah, that's great. Well, there's a lot of misinformation about the intent of the blackout and it just, a bad game of telephone got played. But it was about raising the level of stories, not necessarily people being quiet about them, especially if you're a Black person, you have these stories, absolutely make sure that you're speaking. If you are not, then make sure that you are tuning in and you're listening to what's going on, because that's what gets lost almost always. That's what gets lost. And I know that parents are having a difficult time right now with explaining this to their kids. What do you do? What do you say? How do you educate them on that? You know, I had a parent that reached out to me a couple of weeks ago when this, but oh no, actually it was right after the

0:37:00 Thomas: Are

0:37:52 Alix: Ahmaud killing. It's like, how do you deal with this? How Do you tell your children? How do you explain this to them? And if your kid is 15, 16, 17 years old, and you haven't had the race discussion, the equity discussion, the history about America discussion, then you're really failing them. And you're, you're a really part of the problem because you're perpetuating this colorblind mythos that just, just stifles real progress, right? I mean, how many more kids are going to lose their college scholarships because they, they choose to, you know, ignorantly say something on social media because they grew up in a house that never addressed race.

0:38:39 Alix: And all of a sudden, you know, lose your life because of something stupid that you said, or you decided that, hey, blackface again was in vogue. I mean, you need to talk to your kids about that. If you're a Black parent, I don't need to tell you what to say because you're already having those conversations, right? I mean, that's the only way that they're going to live and prosper, right, and it's the conversations on safety. It's the conversations on etiquette. It're the rules that apply to you and not to them. You all have that, but if you're a white parent and you're not talking to your white kids about engaging with with Black friends, what is and isn't appropriate, the N-word, and whether or not they should be using that and all the free speech that goes with it.

0:39:34 Alix: I mean, what are you doing? You have to prepare them for this because they're going to be out in the workforce eventually. And when they are engaging with African-Americans, what Are going to do then? I mean I would hope that you're teaching them how to properly deal with other genders?

0:39:59 Alix: I mean, you're telling them what is and isn't appropriate there, right? I know in some bastions, no, absolutely not, because why not grab them by the, you know, and then run for president. Yes.

0:40:06 Thomas: We you know It's funny you mentioned that, um, that's that's been really on my mind, uh, in the last several years, has been now that I, you know, at first I, we had Phoebe first and I just had a daughter. And that's, that's a set of issues there. And then we just had a son a year ago, and that's as a whole separate set of issue. You know, it comes to me too. I absolutely want to make sure that my son knows what, what is an, is an appropriate, you know, like, I don't know that I necessarily had the level of understanding I should have as a, as a high school kid, for example. We had some level of messaging, but by the same token, I want to do what I can.

0:41:07 Thomas: I want to have those conversations, but I worry that even people with the best of intentions, white parents, aren't going to know exactly what conversation to have or how to have it. Do you have any advice? Do you maybe any resources to point to, books to point to anything for, uh, you know, white parents out there who do with the best of intentions, want to have these conversations with their children and teach them the right things, but maybe just don't even know how.

0:41:36 Alix: So the one book that I've been pushing pretty heavily right now, and it's not about specifically teaching your kids about these conversations, because if you're struggling with having the conversations, then you're probably struggling with the ideas yourself. And so Ibram Kendi has a new book out, How to Be an Antiracist. It's the first, it is the go-to. I mean, I've made recommendations before, you know, Stamped from the Beginning, which is an absolutely phenomenal book of his, but How to Be an Antirasist is really the next book I would recommend because it talks about some of the strategies and talks about why you can't just be non-racist.

0:42:26 Alix: And I would say that a lot of parents fall into that camp, right, because they believe that they're doing no harm. And it's that level of passivity that isn't inspiring change. So you can't just hope the problem dies out because it's not. And as we discussed prior, the parents that were talking about poisoning a little girl, a six-year-old little girl. They raised other children, and those children are not going to deal with the really hard concepts of race, and they may be elevated to positions of power. Oh, just a quick segue, Stephen King did not, did not win his primary. So he will not be in Congress this term. Thank goodness. Thank goodness.

0:43:12 Thomas: Yeah.

0:43:21 Thomas: At the very least that was some good news. You know, I'm sure he'll be replaced by an ordinarily awful Republican, but like that is He's a step up and actually like active KKK, you know, fucking whatever he was, you know, it is good that even Republicans drew a line in this one instance.

0:43:24 Alix: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But no, I say you cannot attack this passively. We tried. We failed. We're seeing the results of it now. I mean, yes, there's the police brutality discussion that we need to have. There's police reform that we haven't really spoken about in the country. Our love and lust for punishment is really, you know, almost to the point where it's like, wait, there's psychopathy that goes with this. I mean, what is wrong with a society that demands to see blood all the time? I mean we're going to go to war and bomb potentially thousands or hundreds of thousands and kill hundreds of thousands of folks because, hey, you killed one of ours and then all of a sudden you kill one of ours here and you don't get to basically act out in the streets.

0:44:45 Alix: I mean, why is it selective rage that is allowed? But again, that goes to our very complex society and our bloodlust as a country. So again, you can't passively address these. So you need to address them first within yourself. You've got to be able to get some level of resolution within yourself, and you have to understand the problem so that you can teach your kids about it.

0:45:15 Thomas: Right. Well, thanks so much for the recommendation. I've read Stamped from the Beginning, but I hadn't caught how to be an anti-racist yet. So it's added to my list now. Now, can

0:45:20 Alix: It's a good one. It's your. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, White Fragility is also good. Night, I, yes.

0:45:27 Thomas: I tell you, have you read, I just read Dying of Whiteness. Did you read that one? Oh my God. That is like the most depressing book I think I've read in a while. I mean, oh my God, just, just a quick summary, high recommendation for that one. And that's all about, it's, it'd put it in a slightly separate category than, you know, some of these other books. It's more about how white people are basically only harming themselves by being this racist, you know, like, sorry, I shouldn't say only are additionally harming ourselves by being as racist as they're being and by allowing race to allowing racism to infiltrate their politics. Politics, it's all about how these awful policies that have been sold to them because, well, sorry, I tried, I tried to do a quick summary that I realized I want to go into a whole spiel and I shouldn't, but it's basically, you know, wealthy people use racism in a lot of ways to get to do things like cut Medicare and cut, you know, cut health

0:45:32 Alix: Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's Right, right.

0:46:27 Thomas: Care and all these things, which is, you know, mainly because rich people don't want to pay taxes, but then it gets filtered down through, uh, you know, uh, it's because these people over here who aren't the same color as you are going to take these resources and are going benefit from these resources. And then the author, whose, whose name escapes me right now, but of Dying of Whiteness, shows and interviewed a lot of people and shows how, like, these policies just end up also hurting them, like the places, these states where these policies are most prevalent. I mean, the outcomes are terrible for everybody. You know, it's horrible. Horrible. It's so depressing because it's, ah, it's just so stupid. Like, oh, thank

0:46:42 Alix: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, so the other was Jonathan Metzi, and he's

0:47:13 Thomas: You.

0:47:14 Alix: A professor of sociology and psychiatry at Vanderbilt University of Tennessee, and, and this, again, this is something that we, we, you know, in the Black community have discussed when we get into the whole it's it's class not race discussion, it's like, well, to sell the class, um, discussion, you, in America anyway, you have to wrap a, a nice little veil of racism, um, around it, right. Everything goes down just a little bit sweeter, just a, a little bit smoother, if you can make it about us and them, and that us being white versus black. It's a much easier sell. I mean, this goes back to LBJ, when he said, you know, if you can convince the lowliest white man that he's better than any colored man, you can pick his pocket all day long. I means, it's a tried and true strategy, and it just simply works.

But yeah, Yeah, if you say that, if everyone gets something like group Medicare or Medicaid, that, you know, the black and brown are going to deplete it, or they're going to get it at all. You've got to be able to bolster yourself, your self ego, and your quote unquote identity, or what you believe your identity is, by saying, I get this and you do not.

0:47:40 Thomas: Yeah.

0:48:33 Alix: I'd rather cut my nose off to spite my face. Absolutely. If I'm dying, you're going. I mean, there's no way that—I mean, which is also why there's—correct, correct, correct.

0:48:40 Thomas: Yeah. And neither of them get it. It's not even, God, that's what's so frustrating about those people. Uh,

0:48:46 Alix: Which is exactly what's killing them off, right? It's like, I'm not going to get it, but I'm going to make sure you don't get it. And if the only way I can—exactly.

0:48:47 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, health, health outcomes for white people are getting terrible now. Like we're just, it's hurting everybody.

0:48:57 Alix: That's right. If I can ensure that you don't get it by me not getting it, that's—I mean, and that's kind of the premise of the book.

0:49:01 Thomas: Yeah Can I ask you a question though? Because I, I, I personally, and I absolutely feel for you to tell me if I'm wrong on this, but like, I feel like the it's class, not race thing. I think there's absolutely truth to that there, you know, I'm not saying that's wrong, but do you feel, I felt that that's been a bit of a cop-out in some groups. Like that's a way to say like, oh no, there isn't actually any, you know, like real racism. It's just rich people are the ones who utilize it. You know, it doesn't feel like a bit of a pop-out to you ever. Gosh.

0:49:33 Alix: It does. I mean it's not—I think it's a bit disingenuous. I mean, we could get into a little bit of critical race theory, but I don't think you even need to go there because almost everything based in America, the lenses are always race-based lenses. How could they not be? Again, your founding document was a race-based document, and you had nearly 400 years of rules and systems that evolved over time that empowered those rules. So, you know, trying to boil it down to class might work in some societies, maybe some societies that have really addressed their racial issues.

0:50:22 Alix: But no, it's an absolute cop out. It just it's another way of dismissing the the truths. And I'm not just talking about the lived experiences of Black folks, which people like to also dismiss, but everything that you could quantify, which can only be quantified or categorized by race. The racial disparities or the disparities associated with the wealth gap alone, those are not because of class divisions. Those are because of racial divisions and inequalities that were put in place in the 40s, 50s, and well into the 60s and 70s, where wealth was almost curated for white folks and black folks, even in the North, were purposefully excluded.

0:51:15 Alix: I mean, so you can't say that that's, you know, just class and race, or excuse me, just class-based when you've made African Americans another class of themselves. So that's the only way that that argument holds true, is when you say, okay, well, there's another class out there, and that's Black folk, which in itself is racial.

0:51:34 Thomas: I can't believe we're We're already like out of time, uh, I definitely want to get you back and I have a million more questions for you, and also, uh, maybe I can get Jamie on here too, uh, and we can all, uh, talk about some stuff because there's plenty more, um, you know, one thing I did want to maybe hit on before we run out of time, um, because we're never finished, but we're just kind of out of time, is, uh, you know, one more counter argument you hear out there is, oh, but police kill white people all the time. And my favorite thing is that like, as though that somehow means it's fine. Oh, cool. Yeah. You're right. Uh, please kill everybody. Let's all go home, folks. That's fine. Police are just killers. We're cool with that. Um, and, and yeah, by the numbers, you know, of course, white people also get killed by the police, but like it's disproportionate.

0:52:26 Thomas: And I think people are trying to, maybe we can go out on a, maybe a note of optimism, because I wanted to ask you if this, does this feel different? 'Cause if this time feels a little different, you know, not, not as though it's all going to get fixed, but people I think are finally seeing just how fucking shitty police are in this country. Like, go ahead.

0:52:46 Alix: Okay, so the first one is, is, you know, they kill white folks, then why aren't white folks taking the argument to the street? I mean, that's really the first question. Second is, if you actually just look at the math, it turns out that unarmed Black folk are killed disproportionately as well. And although white folks are killed as well, you also have, again, math, you have more white folks out there, period. So I would expect that number to be the case. But when you take a look at sentencing guidelines, when you look at death row, when it comes to felonies and terms, if you rationalize like for like, you will realize that everything is far from like for It is nowhere near equal. In some instances, anywhere between 2x to 9x the penalties are levied for the same crimes, same backgrounds, the difference is race. And you don't have to just go out there and read Mary Alexander's book on this. You can Google it yourself. I mean, it's all out there.

0:53:12 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:54:00 Alix: You like stats. I mean, people like to manipulate stats, but it's, it is just right there, and you can go out there and critically, you know, do it yourself. Now, does this feel different? I have a little bit of a hope of, a little hopeful of optimism there, except someone reminded me the history of 1967, the long hot summer, where you had over a hundred race riots there, and, and, you know, did we get any systemic changes? No, you actually got Nixon. You know, you had Nixon in Goldwater.

0:54:35 Alix: Right, exactly. So, you know, I want to be hopeful. I want to be optimistic. What I feel is good is you've got—or the most optimistic part here is you got such an anti—not government, but anti-administration sentiment in the air, and you just happen to have the pandemic. You happen to have poverty rates beginning to climb as well as people just being not just unhappy in general, but also fed up. And because of that, maybe, maybe there might be change. There was an article yesterday that I read that a bipartisan group is beginning to address um, the, the militarization of police and then stopping the funding, um, for, for some of the, um, uh, for that, for That's really, really important.

0:54:32 Thomas: Yeah, law and order yeah

0:55:34 Alix: Um, I will be much more optimistic and I am looking forward to a November, December, January, where we have responsible adults in the DOJ, because that honestly is the first thing that should have happened. The DOJ should be camped out in Minnesota right now. They should have taken over. I mean, not just the FBI, but the DOJ needs to take over Minneapolis PD. And, you know, we've seen that the school has cut their contracts. The school districts have cut their contract there. And then we've seen some additional folks saying, hey, we're divesting and we're not dealing with Minneapolis PD, again, that is really positive for the local community, but this needs to be nationwide.

0:56:22 Alix: And like I said, I really look forward to real change if we can get it post-November.

0:56:30 Thomas: Yeah, there are so many barriers to change, though. I mean, as, as, as I know you're aware, but the biggest thing seems to be the police unions. God, I Uh, that I go ahead. Yes.

0:56:40 Alix: Oh, yeah. Oh, so Cuomo made a couple of comments. And the police union out in New York, after you see videos of NYPD SUVs driving into crowds, right? You just see not just the rubber bullets, but punching, and you just see just melees of inappropriate police behavior, sometimes unprovoked. The police union is demanding an apology from Cuomo.

0:57:14 Thomas: The police culture is fucking broken. I don't care like it is unbelievable.

0:57:17 Alix: Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

0:57:21 Thomas: Maybe your dad's a cop or something out there. Like, maybe you think your dad is not an asshole. Like, okay, we'll say maybe your dad is one of the good ones. Your cousins or whatever. The culture is fucking broken. It's inexcusable. They protect each other. They do this shit. You know, we saw a lot of these feel-good moments of, like, police joining protests. Well, you know, what happened after a lot of those is then the police then, like maced and tear-gassed and beat people like right after.

0:57:41 Alix: Oh, yeah. No, no. Fuck that. Fuck. Exactly. Same same same same police officers, by the way. Same same police officers. In fact, because they know exactly no can do. In fact, there was there was one that was on his knee and someone took a snap of him and did a background check. And he's currently on, you know, under investigation for a couple of inexplicable, you Know, you're killings of folks like so, you know, it's performative, and it's kind of disgusting, especially for me. I don't accept it in any way, right? And

0:57:49 Thomas: Yeah. They know they can do it, yeah.

0:58:21 Thomas: Sure.

0:58:22 Alix: I got one more quote, one more thing for the audience to look up. There was a police trainer, former police officer by the name of K.L. Williams, and he had a really interesting theory where, you know, we'll start talking about, you know, not all cops, um, he theorized and he goes out and he talks about de-escalation and those various tactics, and he theorizes that the numbers aren't there for the quote-unquote good cops. 15, according to him, 15% of cops will do the absolute wrong thing, right? So 15, 15%, just bad cops. 15%, probably good cops, right? So you got 15 and 15. So that leaves you 70%. Those 70% are basically sheep and they'll go whatever direction is going in that particular situation. So even quote, unquote, neutral cops, they're supposed to be the good ones. They're not because they'll goes along with the 15%. So now you take a look at what does that mean in terms of what a good cop looks like, are you saying that it's only 15%? That's disheartening. Again, it's all associated with a lot of the culture.

0:58:27 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:59:42 Thomas: Absolutely, um, Oh, final question going out, um, is there any - do you happen to have anything like people right now who want to help or maybe want to donate to something, do you have any sort of pet organization or or place that you like to put your money or that that listeners might be able to help with, anything like that?

0:59:43 Alix: Okay.

1:00:00 Alix: So I actually do sit on the board for the Foundation Beyond Belief, and we're working on a couple of programs that we hope might be able to help with not just the bail, but longstanding issues in the community. You can always look us up there, Foundation Beyond Belief. Again, Black non-believers, I'm always going to plug because they are out there in the communities. They're connecting with people. And there's a lot of, I mean, there really is a lot of suffering that's going on out there right now. I tell people, again, if this is your first foray into activism, if you're going to the protest, stay safe. There's a lot of great tips on what to expect if you're out there, how to take care of tear gassing, aggressive cops. If you're white, you need to be a shield for those black folk. There's no reason that it takes a 16-year-old girl jumping in front of me, putting themselves between a police officer and me or a line of policemen in riot gear and me when their parents are at home, you should be out there doing it as well.

1:00:20 Thomas: Did

1:01:11 Alix: If you want the change that you want to see in the world, you go out there and do that. So take a look at any bail funds that are being circulated out there because people need help. Also support the Black businesses.

1:01:25 Thomas: You, you, sorry. Did you finish that thought of where the tips for, uh, what to do if you're going out for your protest? Did you finished? Who, where to find those? Okay. So, gotcha.

1:01:33 Alix: So social media. Yeah, social media, my 14-year-old has got me on TikTok now. It's like, Dude, really? Really, really. But but if you want to see good 30 seconds, 60 second clips on what's going on in in different spots in the country, that's actually been a really good, good source. Yeah.

1:01:42 Thomas: Yeah.

1:01:55 Thomas: All right, Alex Jules, thanks so much. Uh, I'm not going to let two more years go by, I'm going to try and not let two more weeks go by without talking to you again. I don't want to, uh, infringe on your time too much, but I gotta get you back on as soon as possible because there's so much more, but thank you for taking the time and, uh, stay safe out there, uh, and and again just just, uh, absolute pleasure to talk to you.

1:02:06 Alix: Thank you for having me. Always great to talk to you, Thomas.

1:02:31 Clip: Thank you so much for listening to Serious Inquiries Only. If you like the show, the absolute best thing you can do is support us at patreon.com/seriouspod. The second best thing you can do is please share it on social media or by word of mouth. Speaking of social media, if you'd like to follow Jamie on Twitter, she's at Euthyphro. And follow me at SeriousPod. If you'd like to be Facebook friends, send me a request at facebook.com Thomas podcast. If you're not up for that level of intimacy, that's fine. Maybe you want to join the discussion at facebook.com/groups/SIO members. Thank you again for listening. We'll see you next time.