SIO241: A Parasitic Review

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 241, I'm Thomas Smith, that over there is Jamie Lombardi, how are you doing, Jamie?

0:00:34 Jamie: I.

0:00:42 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I do that, but with my kid, it's all screaming, Well, I meant the, is this a phase, okay, tell me, you know, you've had a couple kids that went through this age, we're now in a new phase of things, which, again, in the plague-infested times, I don't, I never know if anything is like, oh, that's normal toddler, or that's plague, you we went gone through a new phase in the last week where every she has nap time, you know, and when we wake her up from the nap time it's a good half hour of irrational screaming, like just screaming at everything, just for, for, you can't even talk to her for like 30 minutes, it's, it's troubling, is that a, is that normal thing, is that, do you

0:00:45 Jamie: Also With The Kids. Oh, You know,

0:01:26 Thomas: Have Any Of that?

0:01:26 Jamie: This Could This Could be a good, pit, you know, toddler or plague, um, and I'm not sure, I think that's Totally within the spectrum of totally normal toddler behavior. Um, Also, Could be Plague, right?

0:01:27 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But Pretty, pretty much everything Is. Yeah. Like every, that's the problem with everything is within the spectrum of normal toddler behavior. I mean, if she goes and like kills a guy, it's still like, well, you know, she's a toddler. So, so it's, it makes it hard to know. Yeah, that's been, that's been fun though. But yeah, we're all in all holding up. You holding up? Okay. Over there.

0:01:59 Jamie: Well, You know, just same, um, Same, kids are doing really weird things and I'm like, is this, you know, normal 11 year old boy behavior, or is this plague, um, the, the older one, the 11 year old he fell down the stairs and broke a computer for the second time. Um, yeah, so That's

0:02:01 Thomas: Yeah. Wow. Like holding a computer was like, there was a computer down there.

0:02:17 Jamie: Yeah, So This Yes, And I just Want to be clear, this is the second times he's broken a computer This way, um, he walks down the stair holding it while open, and then he slips down the stairs, thankfully He's fine, like The Computer Can Be replaced, like, none of his bones are broken. But the computer screen for the second time, second computer, is broken. And it does not work.

0:02:22 Thomas: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I was going to say, oh my gosh, that

0:02:41 Jamie: And so, you know, obviously he's – Yeah. So I think that's mostly normal. Oh, also I broke my toe because the plague just didn't have enough excitement in it. So just a totally normal broken toe, which is a bit unfortunate because I really enjoying going – I would go on these, like, monster, like seven, eight-mile walks. Walks and that would sort of I'd find some peace during that time but I'm not walking for a little bit now, although for those listening, it turns out if you break your middle toe, as I have done, you can sort of use the balls on other either side of your

0:02:42 Thomas: Seems normal.

0:03:14 Thomas: Yeah,

0:03:14 Jamie: Feet to kind of avoid putting any pressure on your middle toes as you walk and you can like go down the stairs that way if you choose to be so stubborn that you will not wear the goddamn boot that is awful for broken toes not not going to do it. Yeah.

0:03:15 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:26 Thomas: It does feel like Some number of our human toes are optional. Like it doesn't, I know that the big toe is crucial. No, no getting around that. But like, you know, the pinky toe is 100% you lose that and you'd never notice. I'm pretty sure. Like I don't think it matters. So somewhere the middle toe is red is definitely on the line there to from necessary to maybe you can still walk around and not notice it.

0:03:48 Jamie: So I think you could lose it like if you just lost the middle toe like you can get around just fine. I think the real difficulty now is not that I don't have a middle toe is that my middle toe is in pain. Yeah.

0:03:52 Thomas: Yeah. Just hurts. Yeah, yeah.

0:04:00 Jamie: And so like if it were just gone and like all the associated pain like I think I would get around and I would able to do my seven eight mile walks and I'd be like fine, um, but currently it hurts and it's purple so my walks are canceled.

0:04:11 Thomas: Well, sorry to hear that. I hope it heals correctly and soon. So we wanted to talk about Parasite today. I just happened to watch I've been meaning to for the longest time. Um, and I just want, before we get into it at all, I just wanted to say, I really, really love this movie. Uh, I liked it quite a bit. And I just wanted to Say that, um, we're gonna want to discuss the whole thing. So if you haven't seen it and you're planning on seeing it, just, just hit pause on us and, or something and go see it, you know, and, and get back to us later. Uh it's on, it's Netflix, I think, right. Or it's something I I watched it on something. I can't remember what. It might be Netflix. Anyway,

0:04:19 Jamie: Old. Um Yeah.

0:04:53 Thomas: I'm pretty sure it was free on something, so

0:04:56 Jamie: I don't remember what I watched it on. Um, it had been a little while, and my, I really thought this movie was excellent, but this movie also made me so physically uncomfortable watching it during some scenes that, because I didn't see it in the movie theater, back when those still were things, um, I had, I got up and I physically walked out of the room because I just made me so anxious. Um, I have such a visceral response to it, but yeah, so spoiler warning ahead, we're going to talk about stuff that happens in the movie. So I

0:05:18 Thomas: That's, yeah, and I Totally recommend people should watch this movie. Like, I just can't. Sometimes when I'm talking about a movie I don't like, I am like, yeah, watch it or don't, you know, let us know, but I always give spoiler warnings. For this one, I highly encourage people to just watch it. I loved it, and so now that spoilers warning is issued, I want to talk about this movie be, um, because obviously there's so much going on, they're great themes, they're great, it's, it's great allegory, I think, uh, and but I, I wanted to maybe start by just talking about it from a, you know, casual film enjoyment level, um, like I said, I really enjoyed it and, uh, I most of all I felt so I didn't look up when this one, I knew it won the, the best picture or whatever, but I knew nothing about it, I didn't look up anything about it because I, I really do like to go into stuff if I can and not knowing anything about it.

0:06:13 Thomas: I just think it makes it more enjoyable when, you know, you don't have all these built-in expectations and all that. For me, anyway, that's just how I like to do things. And I'm really glad I did because just this whole time, just watching it casually, I never had any idea where it was going. Like, I really didn't. And it wasn't because it was like, ooh, major plot twisty thing. Like, well, I don't feel like it was trying to do that. I don't feel like it trying to be like lost or something where it was going to, but it just, I just never really knew it felt so what I most enjoyed just watching it from a, you know, again, like a 30,000 foot kind of level or whatever you would say, uh, not getting into deep analysis of it or anything. I just enjoyed it because I felt like I know the Hollywood formula or something, and this was a different formula, you Know, like it wasn't, or it wasn't a formula.

0:07:03 Thomas: It just felt really fresh and original to me. So I just I enjoyed it so much. What was your what were your kind of overall thoughts of it?

0:07:12 Jamie: Think you're getting at something that really struck me about the film. And it may be helpful to start talking about this from the ending. Because I think the ending in particular really flips the sort of Hollywood script that you're talking about. I think it can be very confusing for people who are used to American-style movies where everything ends happily ever after and the underdog overcomes and is victorious.

Notorious, because this really, this movie not only abandoned that trajectory but made us pay attention to the fact that that's not actually how it really works, and what I really liked, and what I think made this so surprising and also at times uncomfortable, is that it sort of captured, like, the haphazardness of human life. So much of what happens to these people can't be drilled down to their choices, although, you know, that factors into it, but there's just this, like, like randomness and the unexpectedness of how life unfolds and how these chance encounters can alter your life in ways that you never see coming, and you don't understand, and just the inherent uncertainty to how we understand our existence. I thought that really got at something that American movies don't like to tackle. I

0:08:21 Thomas: Yeah, I read a review that talked about this. I think it was in The New Yorker because, you know, I think that while you're right that the in times past, the typical Hollywood formula has been that underdog thing. I don't know that that's exactly still going on that because you take a movie like Joker, which was immensely successful. You know, that was like we did a review on it, of course, but that really did do well at the box office. People watched it. People loved it. That's not by any means that that that similarly is not everything works out in the good guy wins kind of movie. But it also I also didn't like there's something about this movie that I just it just so. So, okay. So getting into it, obviously there, there is a deeper level to this movie and it's, you know, it's pretty apparent.

0:09:09 Thomas: It's, um, but what I love so much about it is, have you seen Snowpiercer?

0:09:15 Jamie: Haven't. And I really need to, I also need to see Knives Out, which also has Chris Evans. Yeah so

0:09:15 Thomas: Ooh, I, I love Knives Out. Yeah. Uh, so totally different reasons, but, uh, I bring up Snowpiercer cause it's, you know, it's the same director and, and, um, I didn't enjoy that one quite as much. I thought it was original. That was interesting, but I, I, you know, I didn't really enjoy it because for my, again, just, this is all just kind of opinion stuff for, for me personally, I really want something to work, um, on a literal level, first and foremost, I want the reality to be there first and foremost. So it's one thing like Snowpiercer for me is entirely metaphor. Like it's entirely, cause it does, it doesn't make any sense. It's a, it's a stupid situation, which, you knows, sometimes can be fine. Uh, sometimes you can suspend disbelief and it's, it'S, it's okay. OK, but for me, I don't know what I loved more about this movie, I guess I'll say, is that you even if you didn't even look deeper, you know, like even if you just took it on face value, it still is just a great movie.

0:10:15 Thomas: Like it has characters that are interesting. I kind of believe their reality. I believe their choices. The acting is great. The direction is great, just all that stuff for me. First and foremost, works really well. It's interesting. It's intriguing, you know, kind of unfolds in a in a tense way. You're not really sure how it's going to go. It's almost what's what's the word like a heist film at first, you know, and it just it just held my interest even on a literal level, even on just a without going deeper into metaphor. I think it really worked there first. And then also going deeper to metaphor is really interesting. So that's why For me, it just really clicked, and this is just, it's one of my favorite movies now. Like, I really did enjoy it that much.

0:11:03 Jamie: That's interesting. So one of the things that made me so anxious with the scene, I guess, just, again, guys, spoiler warning, because I'm, I'm right now going to say specific things about the movie. Um, a lot of their choices made sense and they were compelling characters and I could bring myself to be sort of like rooting for them, but some of the choices seemed to me to be not understandable, and just, I, you know, the anxiety of why would you make this choice in the circumstances. What made me feel so anxious that I had to get up and go away, as the Park family, for example, right, they leave for their camping weekend and the Kim family is going to, you know, hang out, and they're like, and this you

0:11:20 Thomas: Well, maybe we should, do you want to set up the, just to catch everybody up to, like, know what you're, okay, well, yeah, hold that thought. I will definitely let you finish that thought, but just in case to get everybody upto speed. So, if you've decided you're not going to watch it and you don't care and you're going to listen, quickly run down the plot. You know, the focus is a very poor family in South Korea that lives in like this, just, you know, sub basement apartment, like it shouldn't even be a living space. You know, it's like under practically underground. Uh, it's, it's really just, uh, I don't know what, how to describe it, but it's a, it's a, it's a dirty cramped existence and they're, they're struggling. They, you know they're trying to do different things to have money. They're also it's kind of a I guess a what do you what do you call it? Sorry that I have I have plague brain foreshadowing is foreshadowings the word they they're kind of leeching on other people's Wi-Fi.

0:11:45 Jamie: Got you're probably going to do a better job of it, so you do it, and then we'll talk about it. Okay. Perfect. Yeah

0:12:41 Thomas: They're trying to, you know, and like the first part of the movie, they, they, some whoever they were leeching from put a password on it. So there's this whole trying to find a new source of internet and they have this really terrible part-time time or nothing gig economy work, folding pizza boxes for a delivery company, which they are doing badly. And so it's, it's squalor. It's a, it's tough existence. Um, but it changes when a friend of the, so it's a, let's see, it's a mother, father, brother, and a sister, right? It's four of them. Yeah. And, uh, when the, the brother's, uh, friend who was able to kind of get out of that and go to college, um, offers him a job to, like, replace him as a tutor to a wealthy, uh, family's kid.

0:13:29 Thomas: And, uh, so they, they do this and, and the, the sister is able to fake documents because she's actually really skilled at, at art and, uh, that kind of thing, like photoshopping and all that. And so, long story short, he gets the job as a, a tutor. And then the next part of the kind of the next act is they find a way to get each of the family members a job in different ways in this family, and, uh, it's, it's delightful, like, I really like this part of it, um, they're finding ways to kind of set up the other employees, which you feel obviously bad for, but, like, you kind of understand it too, um, because they're living in such poverty, you know, so they get the driver fired and the dad becomes the driver, they get the housekeeper fired, I think the first thing they do was bringing the sister as the tutor for the other child.

0:14:19 Thomas: Um, and so anyway, the part that you were at is the, the, uh, the whole family has taken over these jobs. So all four of them are employed in some, some way, but they're all pretending they're just acquaintances. Like they don't, the, the rich family doesn't know that they're related, and the rich family decides to go on a camping trip. Uh, and, uh, and so they, they all kind of let their guard down and they're inside the house, and I believe that's where you were, you're gonna go. Yeah.

0:14:47 Jamie: So, um, excellent, so they're all inside of the house, as you've pointed out, um, all four members of the Kim family, who are living in this basement dwelling apartment, have, through, you know, some combination of ruse and deception and sabotage, become employed in the house of the Park family, who goes away for a camping weekend. And so, while the wealthy family is gone, the, the poor family who's taken up jobs as their house staff, um, decides to have, I guess, like, a party for themselves, but not, but they, they raid the liquor cabinet and the house Is A mess Yeah They're Just Drinking, they're taking a bath, you know, they're lounging in the bathtub, they're making use of the house. And this is a place where I really struggled.

I can understand the decision to drink, even take a bath, I guess, um but there's like so much filth all over that, that seems to me sort of reckless in a way that I can't understand. It it seems to add an element of like non-necessary risk. I guess I'm just too risk averse. And so that, that part Makes me really anxious. And then it starts raining, right? So the Kim, the Park family is going to come home. And so they call the house and they ask the housekeeper to begin making a meal for the children. And, you know, the family is drunk and they start to scramble. And, oh, I left out another part that the former housekeeper arrives. And so so much of that chaos just seems to me unnecessary. And then in the ensuing fight, too, and it's, it's important to mention, one of the, the main characters in this scene is the former housekeeper who the

0:15:22 Thomas: They're Just Drinking Yeah Hanging Out Yeah Who

0:16:26 Jamie: Who They Had gotten fired, and she shows up at the house because, unbeknownst to both the wealthy family and the Kim family, her husband has been hiding in this like emergency bunker in the basement behind like a sliding storage rack. And he's been stuck in there, not, not getting food, not getting any water. And the former housekeeper comes trying to just free her husband. And she's refused. She wants her husband to be able to continue living in there because it turns out he's hiding from debt collectors. And this is the only way that he can eke out any sort of existence. And just the combination of the risks taken and the tenseness of the family returning and all of this drama unfolding, oh, it made me so physically uncomfortable and so

0:16:26 Thomas: They Got fired Yeah Yeah

0:17:13 Jamie: So concerned for all of them because, in a way, like you are emotionally invested, um That I had to, fit this is the part where I'm like, no, I have to, I have, physically get up and walk away from this movie, this is just too much for me to handle. Yeah.

0:17:17 Thomas: Yeah And that, that leads us to kind of, I guess maybe the third act, is it all kind of breaks down at this point? That's the last non-breakdown moment of the movie, because when they find out this man was living in the basement, there's a, a struggle. And, and I like it because metaphorically what happens here, it seems to me, is it's showing that the, the working class often struggles against each other, you know, and divides against each other when perhaps the target ought to be some, someone else, you know, like, I, I really thought that was an interesting representation because these families kind of, they kind of fight, you know. They're trying to gain control, and for a moment, The old housekeeper and her husband are in control of everything because they get a picture which would prove that these people have been lying to the rich family, and they threaten that they're going to send the picture to the, to the rich family, um, and kind of blow their whole scheme. Go ahead.

0:18:25 Jamie: So I Think This is so central to the movie. In fact, before the original housekeeper, um, discovers that she lost her job through sabotage and that the whole family has taken up the positions of the staff who had been fired, she's actually sort of pleading the, the The matriarch of the Park family saying, like, please, I'll pay you money, just let him stay here, sneak him food, we Have no place else for him to be.

And there's this really weird scene where the matric of the Kim family says, says no to her, after This housekeeper, who has to now live in the circumstances that the, the Kim family has, has used as motivation themselves, arrives to her and refers to herself as neighbors in need and asks for help and even offers to pay her, right? And So there's a point in which the Kim family can continue to maintain every single thing that They have if The matriarch just says yes and accepts this and extends, you know, compassion and understanding, right, and she makes this decision where she says no because she wants to, you knows, I guess maybe see herself as somehow different, somehow having, having transcended the class struggle or something,

0:18:42 Thomas: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Yep. Yeah.

0:19:34 Jamie: Having made her way out and not wanting to accept that she's still very precariously situated. And it's her refusal to like partake in this act of solidarity or compassion that really sets up the conflict that's about to follow and that results so tragically. I think that that's a real turning point and that's where the direction takes its turn for the worse, I think.

0:19:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, well put. And I, I, I also love that because you really do see a switch. Like you said, you know, when, when the old housekeeper first comes on, she does take a stance of, of supplication and, you, you know, can you please help me out kind of thing. And, and like you say, the, the matriarch of the Kim family, uh, has a, has the attitude of like kind of being above her, which she definitely, you know, isn't, but it's like she slips into feeling like wherever she is, you know, she's earned that or she deserves that somehow, in a way that I think is, is really good critique of human nature, you know, it's, it's like, come on, you can't see that you're not any different Than this person, and that, you know, like, but, but it's almost like her station, that she's, that they've conned their way into, um, their station, it's like, she's, she's acting in a way that she thinks that should be, you know, or that she, she has some pride in this station that she's earned through this con job.

And I just struck me as, I don't know, it struck me as real but also tragic, as you say, you know, she could have made a different decision and just let the guy live there and given him food once a week, they're like, just once a year, once, give him some food, he can live down here. And she refuses. And then when they're kind of discovered, the whole dynamic changes. And in a way that, again, I just thought struck a chord as realistic to me.

0:21:30 Thomas: It goes from, you know, the old housekeeper pleading and kind of taking a position of, oh, please help me out to like, Like, oh, no, you people are like, you know, now I'm above you, you know, to kind of switches. And it's it's so fascinating.

0:21:44 Jamie: Yeah, and there's so much of this conflict that could be overcome with solidarity that I, that, that perhaps that is, is something that's so important here, and I think important too, because the, the Kim, or the Park family, I'm sorry, doesn't ever do anything that could beat necessarily understood as making them villains or bad guys. And it turns this whole notion of good versus bad kind of on its head. And, and even the scene between the two housekeepers, I don't think is rightly understood in terms of good or bad, but the way that, like, the precariousness of our lives forces us to act from these like baser impulses that ultimately don't serve us. And I think it's good to draw attention to how much of how these dynamics play out, it's just sort of like built in and automated, and we're just kind of Following these like really bad scripts that are not working for any of us. Yeah.

0:21:51 Thomas: Yeah.

0:22:43 Thomas: Yeah. Well, and I think it really is true that especially in the US, when you're poor and it's the phrase I always badly remember, you're a temporarily disgraced millionaire or whatever in this country. I think that's what it was. And then If you're, if you're a millionaire, or if you're just well off, you've earned it, you know, you deserve it. Then the people below you haven't worked hard enough kind of thing. That really is the American ethos. And I think that it's probably pretty universal. You know, I think it's just natural to feel, to feel that way. I think it's human nature in a way to, and I think we have to fight against that. Um, and I think, and it illustrates it well.

And I love what, like you say, the, the key to this particular conflict here is they could all just work together and all get what they want here, uh, and probably continue to, you know, even maybe get more out of this rich family or something, but they, they focus on each other and, um, and it's ultimately their downfall. But this, that when this, so it starts raining really horribly, and you find out, as you set up, that the, the

0:22:59 Jamie: Yeah

0:23:48 Thomas: Family's camping trip is ruined, and I just, I just love this part of the movie because there's this awful flooding, you know, just this catastrophic flooding, um, and the whole, so they, they pull it off, they manage to pull off the, like, they lock the other family, the old housekeeper and her husband, they lock them in the basement, and they, they are, they managed to like hide out and pull off that the dinner that they wanted and all that stuff, they barely pull it off, it's really tense and and well done, I like that part, and they, you know, this, this rain, cut, they finally get out and their old, their house, their basement dwelling is just completely flooded. And there's this, this awful flooding that's displacing, you know, basically all the poor people in that neighborhood who are, who are living in these conditions.

0:24:38 Thomas: And I love the idea that, like, this catastrophic flooding happens, and what happens is the rich people's camping trip is canceled, and the poor people, like, they're, they lose their dwelling and they're forced to like camp out together, and I just, I just really love that contrast, I just thought it was like so well done, yeah.

0:24:57 Jamie: So I think that's really interesting, and I think that's part of even the message at the end, so we should, we should probably go through it, why don't you do a better job, I think, of summarizing the movies as they happen, but after, you know, he's locked in in the basement, uh, so, set us up for the birthday party, and then what happens, because I think there's something similar there too, and how we, how, how people's, like, relative access to the financial resources they need to live encourages how we understand the place in the story, like, at no part do we assign any blame to the Park family, despite the fact they have such an abundance of resources that they could meaningfully remove six people's lives from abject poverty and squalor, but for the fact that we don't consider it their responsibility, responsibility to do so, and that this type of suffering is just sort of built in, an acceptable part of the world that results in this kind of mass, or this sort of resource acquirement and hoarding, right?

And so I think there's a really interesting contrast there and how we understand who to feel bad for in the story, because when it ultimately ends, you know, there's this sense, well, actually, set us up for the birthday party first, do that, tell

0:26:11 Thomas: Well, Sure.

0:26:11 Jamie: Everybody about the birthday party.

0:26:12 Thomas: And I, I, I also want to just echo what you said there, I, that's another part that I love about this movie, the rich people are not cartoon villains, you know, and they're, they're hardly even villains in a way that you're, you know, outlining, like, they're, the the worst thing that they do, and it, and it does end up, uh, pretty critical to the, to the ending, is that at one point, and again, I just really enjoyed this, in a way that I, I just thought it struck a chord and was realistic and stuff, what happens is the kid, at a certain point, notices, like, make comments on the fact that they all four of them smell Similar, um, that, oh, yeah, you smell like, uh, you know, because again, remember they're pretending not to be related, and that they, they're, and they're also pretending to be a bit higher class than they are, I don't think they're, you know, they're not pretending to me, like, well off, because obviously they're still doing the sort of labor that, I think in that society, it's not like you're, you're super well off, but they're at least pretending not to be like destitute, and to be little bit, uh, more refined I guess maybe.

And the kid kind of says that, they can't just comments, like, oh, you smell like, uh, the housekeeper, you know, and then that, that becomes part of it, when they're, when they're hiding out, after they've gotten caught, uh, or stuck in the, in the mansion, you know, when the, when Kim, uh, Park, Park family, when the Park family returns, um, they overhear a lot of stuff about, like, how the, the dad smells, the driver smells, you know, a certain way.

0:26:49 Jamie: So.

0:27:43 Thomas: And it's not, but they're not like evil about it. They're, they're perfectly like realistic. You know, it just struck me as totally real. And I I loved it. Like, it's like, oh, you know, there's a there's just a way he smells like it's, you know, you can't escape it. And I just I thought that was a much better quote unquote villain if they are villains. I'm not even sure how much they're meant to be like the villains of the story, but it's a much besser villain, I think, than like a cartoon bad guy villain who's just like an obvious asshole. And, you Know, it just is a little more subtle and I enjoy it.

0:28:15 Jamie: I Completely Agree With You, I don't think we're supposed to understand the Park family as villains, are bad, in like the way that we normally use that when we do sort of moral talk. I think to the extent that there's something that is bad in this movie, it's our lack of attention, our obliviousness to the world around us, and how we just take for granted that the structures and framings are of our society, or are how they should be, and how that sort of allows us to suspend our judgment.

And so I think that this scene with the kid that you mentioned was really powerful, and I think even in a way perhaps foreshadowed, because as we're going to talk about the scene at the birthday party where really, like, the destruction just explodes out of this movie, this, this child has noticed really important things before and been completely ignored. He tells his parents about out having seen a ghost come up from, from the basement, and it doesn't fit in the world as the parents understand it, and so they just ignore it and dismiss it as this sort of child's talk that doesn't really mean anything.

But what is actually happening is the original housekeeper's husband, who's been locked away in this basement apartment, has come up the stairs at night to get something else to eat, and the child sees him and experiences it as a ghost because he has no framework to, like, scaffold on an understanding that there's this person living in the basement of his house, because there's no other place for him in society to exist and not be hounded, right? And again, he notices that the family sleeps together, that they all

0:29:52 Jamie: Smelled the same, and the, the dad just sort of dismisses that, he's like, oh, well, that's what people smell like who ride the subway, they're all just generically poor and stand-ins for one another, and he just is insensible to the idea that, like, poor people are people and have families that they have to care for and that they relate to. And I think the villain in this movie, to the extent there is one, is just what we are, we're just not paying attention to what's right in front of us, and our tendency to live our lives on this sort of autopilot and take it for granted renders us insensible to the gross human suffering all around us, yeah.

0:30:00 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:31 Thomas: Yeah, and I also like it because it, it to me, it highlights a little bit that, you know, there's a point that, who was it, might have been AOC or somebody made, that conservatives laughed and thought, oh, that's so ridiculous, but she was right on, I can't remember who it was, it was one of the squad, I think, it's been a year or two, and it was that,you know, some people are just too poor to get jobs, and conservatives laughed off too poor, poor to get a job. And it's absolutely true, like if, if you are in a level of poverty where you are living out of your car, or you aren't able to get, like, access to documents that you may need to, like, pass a background check or whatever it is, you know, to, to have your application be taken seriously, all this stuff, you actually need resources in order to get job.

0:31:17 Thomas: It's, if you're at a certain level of poor or poverty, uh, you're, you know, you, you might not even be able to get a job that you fully want to do, you're fully qualified to do, you're willing to work hard, and you mightnot be able do it. And it kind of reminded me of that, when, when you talk about the fact that the, the, um, Kim family all has this, like, in this movie, they all have this like smell, it's reminded me, like, yeah, I mean, if you're, look at where they're living and look, look at how they have to manage, like, having a nice outfit for an interview and all this, all this stuff that, like, you know, we might take for granted, is got to be really difficult and is, is, keeps people who want to work and want to get a job from being able to do so.

0:32:03 Jamie: I think, think that's exactly right. I don't want to go too far down the wormhole in this, but I once read an article that has stayed with me that unfortunately I don't remember the author or the title of the article, but it was written, um, by a Southern Black woman, and she was talking about how we shame people, how we blame poor people for their judgments and stories.

We've all heard stories or seen it, you know, in the grocery store, back pre-plague, um, someone paying for groceries with food stamps for example but having a designer bag, and people complaining about that sort of thing, right? Like, the poor people aren't managing their money properly, and why can they have this expensive bag if they need food stamps? And she tells the story of her grandmother who had invested in this really nice suit and handbag, and whenever anybody in the community needed help talking, doing something at the municipal office, or you know, getting something straightened out, her grandmother mother would wear this suit and the nice handbag, and she would go into town and she would help a member of the community navigate whatever difficulty or had to be done. And the way that she tells the story is that having this suit, having this bag, worked like a sort of key, and it granted access, that you had these signifiers that communicated you were a person who deserved to be there, whose concerns were worth being taken seriously.

0:33:21 Jamie: And in the absence of these external markers of where you rank socially, people were more hostile and less willing to listen to the concerns of the community. And so having these completely external, largely arbitrary signifiers of worth facilitated social relationships. And a lot of that goes missing when we shame how poor people make their choices and how they invest. But yeah, the Kim family does not generally have those things. And you're right. It does make getting a job harder if you don't show up for the interview and say like a clean shirt.

0:33:20 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, no, great point. So if you want me to set up where we, where we get to here. So they get out, as I said, and their, their, their home is flooded. They're camped out in a, in a gymnasium, you know, and it is, this part just, it was amazing because I was in kind of disbelief that this was going to happen, and it still happened, but it was still satisfying. It wasn't like, oh, I don't believe that.

So what happens is the, you know, the rich family, the Park family, I guess, um, they decide, like, well, the the kid's birthday has been ruined by this, you know, the camping trip being canceled, old, so we'd better, like, have a quick, impromptu gathering, a party at the house. And they, so they're like, well, call all the employees, you know, call essentially all this, this family. And I'm thinking, like, well, there's no way they're going to be able to pull this off, because they're, you know, like I said, they're camped in a gym, but they're able, like, they all still have enough phone battery, I guess, and or something to to get the calls, and they're like, well, we'll find a way.

So they, they find some, I guess, find some clean clothes and get, get over there, and they start working on this, like, birthday party. And it's, again, where the contrast just, I loved it. Like, the the ability, the way that, like, the impromptu party that the rich family wanted to throw, you know, that probably goes down, and and they do hint at this a bit, but that, that goes down as a triumph for the rich mom, probably, like

0:35:29 Thomas: You know her friends are like, wow, I can't believe you've thrown this together, together, you know, which is all built on the backs of these people who have literally been, you know, displaced from their home by a flood, coming into work the next day and pulling this off. And I just, ah, it was another one of those things where I just, God, I, I, it's so, it's, it, it's a, it's a tough bit of reality, but I felt like it was realistic, and I really liked it. So they pull it off. Um, and, uh, where did, where'd you want me to get to with that? I can't remember how far you wanted to go.

0:35:29 Jamie: Of course.

0:36:01 Jamie: Oh, so I think you should probably talk about what actually happens at the birthday party. And because I think this thing, this is sort of how the movie ends and all of the destruction comes together. And then we can.

0:36:01 Thomas: Yeah well we get a key scene in the gymnasium, I think it is, where between the Kim family, the driver, the dad, who was my favorite actor, by the way, that that guy is so watchable, uh, something about him, I just, and and I'm, you know, we watch this with subtitles, so it's, it's a little interesting, you know, like what parts of the performance might be different or get lost or or whatever when you're reading subtitles, but boy, I really like that actor, he's just like so, so watchable.

Um, but anyway, they're not really sure what to do, cause this, these two people are still trapped in that basement, you know, like they're, they're still, they're not sure what the ultimate plan is. The, the, the mom has been wounded pretty badly because in order to pull off the great escape that they did the night before, um, the other, the Kim family mom kicked, kicked the old housekeeper down into the basement, and she hit her head really badly, so, like, she's in a bad way. The, um, the other guy's still in there, and so they're trying to figure out what to do. And the the dad had suggested he had a plan, and the son, when they were all in the gym, asked him, like, what's the plan? He said there was never a plan.

Like, I, don't, don't make plans, because, you know, there, if you don't makes a plan, then you don' fail at the plan, kind of thing. And the kid takes, takes it upon himself then to, like, he feels like he's got to fix this. I think, as a result of all that, he feel bad about where they are. And so he has decided, when this birthday party is happening, he's decided he's going to go in the basement.

0:36:12 Jamie: Yeah.

0:37:44 Thomas: And I guess, I think he's decide he's gonna kill them, I believe. Um, I guess we don't know for sure, but that seems to be what he's doing. He takes this rock down there to go, like, kill them, but he botches it and he falls down the stairs, is, like, your kid with the computer, and uh, so he loses his rock or whatever, and so the the other guy gets the jump on him, that old housekeeper's husband gets the job on him, um, so he's, he's kind of out, he gets hit in the head really bad.

And then, as a result of that, uh, you find out that the the old house keeper I think, did eventually die of her head wound, and the husband of her is, you know, wants revenge for all this, like, it's just, you know, on a, gonna go on a rampage to get revenge, so he kind of escapes the basement during this nice party, and when the cake is coming out, um, there's some other minor things that it's not worth dwelling on, but they were going to do a little thing, like a little routine for the kid, and in the middle of that, this, the same guy who was the ghost that the kid saw, by the way, pops out and just stabs somebody, I don't even remember, the sister

0:38:50 Thomas: I think the Kim family sister, yeah, and uh, it's all, it's kind of all, all hell breaks loose. And I think the dad, the Kim father, fights him off, and I think mortally wounds him or whatever. But then what crucially happens is his daughter is now stabbed, possibly dying, probably dying. And the rich dad's daughter has fainted, you know, and he is insisting now, he doesn't know that the driver and the and the stabbed girl our father and daughter, he doesn't know that, but he prioritizes his daughter who is just, like, fainted, you know, like, we need to drive her to the hospital over the girl who's

0:38:50 Jamie: The sister, Jessica.

0:39:36 Thomas: Been stabbed. And, critically, the the key moment in all this ending is, as he is, like, going to grab, what is he gonna do, he's grabbing, oh, he's driving, the keys, I think, to to the car, to drive himself, the rich dad, as he's trying to grab the keys from the guy, he makes the face that he smells the smell that he doesn't like, and that's, like, too much for, uh, the driver, uh, the Kim father, and uh, he, he stabs that that guy and kills him, and that's, like, kind of, that, that's where, where it ends, that part of it anyway, that's the the everybody's run away, there's lots of bloodshed, um, but that was kind of the last straw for the for the driver, and he kills the rich father. Sure.

0:40:18 Jamie: Yeah. So, yes. And so this, I think, gets to this idea, right? Right. That in that scene, even the expectation is, even though this, this woman is bleeding out on the ground, she's just been stabbed by this ghost character who's come up in the basement, even from the point of view of the Parks. Right. This, this worker who's been working with his family, helping his son, is bleeding out on the ground, and that, that's sort of not important, important, right? We're not supposed to put our moral attention there, we're going to pay attention to our own child, which, like, obviously has some impulse.

I think if your own child is sick, I think there's a certain element of that that is like totally normal to prior. And I don't mean to say that that's not part of it, um, but you know, the way that we sort of understand this, you know, and even at the end, the the Kim family is is devastated, um, there's been death, and but I won't give the the complete ending away just yet, right? And the Park family just moves to a different house. And yet somehow, we understand them as being, you know, somehow uniquely violated. And they have been. They have been deceived. Their former staff had been dismissed based on sabotage. Like, and that,

0:41:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:39 Jamie: Right.

0:41:39 Thomas: Well, The Father's dead, right? Yeah.

0:41:41 Jamie: And so, right, like there is loss there, right? But this all sort of comes about because of, as you mentioned, the displacement of the Kim family and how thoroughly that's just sort of set on the side, is not relevant. These people with their lives in literal disaster are just put in these, these situations where there's just no amount of injustice that's ever big enough that, like, their lives are centered in the story. I think that's important. Yeah.

0:42:12 Thomas: Yeah, and uh, yeah, I guess we should talk about the ending, ending, uh, which I also loved, which is that the father who killed the rich father ends up in the basement. He hides out in the basement because they've set up the fact that the old housekeeper has disabled some, some neighborhood, neighborhood cameras that would have caught him. So he just goes in the old basement that nobody knows about, the bomb shelter thing, um, and he hides out there and the son discovers that he's been giving a Morse code message using this light switch that's down there, um, and you get a bit of a false ending, that the the son decides, he says he has a plan, he's gonna, you know, become wealthy enough to buy the house and let him out, and uh, but the last shot you get is, while it's just kind of shown you that as though it's happening.

0:43:02 Thomas: The last shot you get is the son is just writing this in a letter to his dad. Um, and you know, I don't, I Don't think my interpretation or my feeling about it was that there's not really much of a chance of this happening, but it's a nice dream. Um. And then that's the, uh, that's the end of the movie.

0:43:20 Jamie: So I think, yeah, I think it ties into what you were talking about earlier and how if you're so poor, it actually is hard to get a job. And I think that was my understanding of the closing scene, that the son says he's going to get a job, he's gonna become wealthy, and he's to be able to release his father. But that was all a fantasy and a fiction, and it doesn't come to pass, because class mobility is actually enormously difficult and the suffering just continues to go on. People don't, there isn't actually this happy ending, it is, it actually isn't the case that you could just work hard enough your way out of poverty, that's not real. I mean, I know that some people do, but those are the exceptions, and because there are these exceptions, people point to that as though that should somehow be the rule, and therefore if you aren't able to do this truly exceptional, remarkable, remarkable thing, well then it's your fault and you deserve it. And I think that was the point of the ending of the movie, not that he actually pulls this off, but that this

0:44:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:44:28 Jamie: Side of this sort of class mobility, when you're in that kind of poverty, is actually impossible, and believing in that itself constitutes its own form of injustice, because it renders you insensible to just how much, much misery there is.

0:44:44 Thomas: Yeah, I, so there's so many big picture things that I was left with, that I wanted to, hopefully I'll remember them, but I just, I overall, I love the image of, you know, these, these people in poverty locked in a, in a cellar underneath the wealthy family. It's just such a great image. And then the idea that, like, when things bubble up, you know, when, when you get the the critical scene at the end where it's it's like the the the people below, the rich family, things bubble up, things, it finally comes to a head and there's an explosion of violence at this party. And I love the image of that. And I love also that in the sort of subsequent scenes where there's some news footage and stuff that goes down, as, you know, wow, senseless killing, you know, no known motivation, nobody can figure it out kind of thing.

0:45:38 Thomas: And I just love it because it's like when, it just struck me as, as true to life, you know, like the idea that when, you know, when people who are less fortunate, when people who're in severe poverty, you know, when they try to do anything about it, when they organize, when they, maybe there's, maybe there's a riot, maybe there's violence, you know, the way it gets covered, uh, is, is usually on an individual level, like, oh, geez, you know, people, uh thugs have done something or whatever, you know, and not looking at the systemic issues and not, and and not taking it seriously, I guess, like in the, in the mainstream narrative. Like it's, it's more about people being in particular evildoers or troublemakers or whatever it might be, you know, they're, they'RE shattering shop windows or whatever.

0:46:29 Thomas: These are just thugs. These are whatever. And I, I just, I love that image and that, I guess, metaphor or whatever, or it's these two, um, poor families are are feuding, and are, and it bubbles up enough to where it literally, like, bubbles up out of, from under the basement, uh, and explodes on this family. And then in the end it's looked at as like, oh, this was a senseless act, you know, no, no one can really explain it kind of thing. I just, I really enjoyed that particular component of this movie. Yeah.

0:47:02 Jamie: Yeah, I agree. The villain here is the structural realities. And I was thinking, of preparing for this, I was thinking a lot about it as I read this article that was in The New Yorker. They're doing a series on rich Corona, poor Corona. And they're trying to highlight the disparities between how the pandemic is being experienced between those who have resources and those who don't. And one of the stories that really struck me, it was, um, was about, the it was a story on what philanthropy will be like now that we can no longer have galas, um, and I was just dumbstruck by this article, because the whole article is about the danger now pose to nonprofit organizations and their difficulty in pleasing donors enough and entertaining them enough to part with their money so that the nonprofits that do vital work, this was talking specifically about New York

0:47:16 Thomas: I

0:48:03 Jamie: City, can continue to do that work. And at one point in the article they interview a socialite, whose name I don't remember, who is quoted as saying, you know, know she doesn't even really like going to the parties, but it's very clear with within just the the context of this article that the focus is how do we help these non-profits raise, you know, money so that the galas can continue, what do we do about the theater performers who aren't able to to supplement their income from gala season with regular productions of performances.

And it was was just striking to me that this is how our society is structured, because really, what is at play here is in the absence of these non-profits being funded, and people are going to go hungry, people are not going to have the resources that they need, and it just struck me as like a horribly insane system that, in the essence of being, to add, in the absences, being able to adequately, adequately entertain wealthy people who still have all of that money to donate to the non-profits should they be so inclined, people are going to forego the resources they need.

And I thought it would be a really great idea if maybe there was some sort of program that could maybe be run nationally where we could somehow, you know, get the money that was necessary to to fund services so that people didn't go without food. And I really hope someone clever invents such a system down, down the road, but yeah, it turns out in

0:49:33 Jamie: Three months of gala season, one-fifth of all the money raised for non-profits, um, or one-fifth of all the money that will be raised for nonprofits in New York, will be done in the three months of gala season in New York City. And now they are panicked, um, because they can't hold galas for their very wealthy donors, who, by the way, still have all the money they had before, and just aren't going to part with it because they aren't going to be able to go to parties. No.

0:49:58 Thomas: Thought you're gonna say we need a national program to bring back the galas, like there's like a Gal National Gala Fund.

0:50:03 Jamie: No. I think we should be able, able to do it without parties. I have this really crazy idea that we should be able to feed poor people even if rich people can't have parties, it's one of my radical ideas, yeah.

0:50:04 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and the idea of Relying on rich people donating is a joke. I mean, I think that people should do all they can, but, like, that's not the solution, you know. There was, god, who was it, there's some idiot, uh, oh, sorry, I shouldn't say that, but somebody, uh, when they were talking about, um, I don't know, I, I, sorry, I just thought of a top of my head, but there was an exchange that I saw on social media where they were talking about Bill Gates's charitable donation and a wealth tax. I think it was debating the wealth tax and someone made the point that, like, look at Bill Gates is charities or whatever. Do you really think that the government would have handled this better? Like if this had instead gone to a wealth text of the government, like, would they, would they have handled it better than Bill Gates has with his charitable organization, all that?

0:51:04 Thomas: And on one hand, it could be true that some of what Bill Gates is doing might be, I don't know, as good or better as some government programs. That might be true. But to look at who is definitely an anomaly, to look up one instance of a super wealthy person who's an anomaly in what they have done, and somehow use that to paint a picture of the entire 1% or 0.1%, it just doesn't hold up. If you look at the numbers, the super wealthy and even the very wealthy, they don't donate much money and it would be better to have a wealth tax that went to fund health care or fund whatever, you know, free college or whatever it would be. Like, you can't take the top example of a donor who, probably if you look at it, probably by the numbers, who knows what he's even doing.

0:51:54 Thomas: I think he's he's doing some laudable stuff, but who knows, like, how much of his wealth in the end he is donating. Most people aren't Bill Gates. Most rich people aren't Bill Gates. Most of them don't do any of that. And if you look at the numbers, it would be much better to have a wealth tax that funds stuff. I can't believe we're running out of time. I wasn't sure that we would have enough to go on, but now we have too much.

The last point I wanted to make sure I made was there was somebody who commented on my Facebook post about this who said something like, oh yeah, I enjoyed the movie. They thought it kind of was too, I don't know, like, beat you over the head with the undertones, with the, with the, you know, the message on income equality and I, I, I kind of disagree. I feel like it was, you know, it was apparent, it was obvious, but I, like, in the end I really enjoyed just the movie as a movie first and foremost, um, and the, and the kind of the underlying message was also fantastic.

But they said one thing, they said, I wanted to touch on, the only reason I bring it up is they're like, like, oh, yeah, did, you know, it did really make me think about the situation of income inequality in South Korea and all that. And I did some research today because I already had a hunch. Income inequality is worse in the United States than it is in South Korea. Things are better income inequality wise in South Korea than in the United States.

So if there's anybody who watched this and thought, oh wow, things sure are bad in that country over there, you know, or something, and thought, like, maybe it wasn't as bad here.

0:53:27 Thomas: It's worse here by by by all measures. And South Korea has universal health care. So it's worse here. Like I take it as sure. I'm sure that the director probably intended it as, you know, as criticism of South Korea, where he grew up and all that kind of stuff. But like it applies even more so here.

0:53:46 Jamie: I think that's absolutely correct, people are always shocked to find out that, you know, the United States doesn't even rank number one in the American Dream, and actually we're pretty low down on the list. I've got it pulled up right now, we're number 27 on social mobility in a list of countries, um, and South, well, South Korea actually isn't great, it's better than the U.S., it's still 25, um, but this is definitely important, and it's hard for me, like, obviously yes the movie isn't being coy about its message that there's gross social inequality in our society that is resulting in death, even in in ways that we don't understand, um, I don't know how to make sense of the idea that this movie was too heavy-handed or hitting you on the head with it because we still haven't figured that out, and so it seems to me still important to talk about it. Seems weird to me to complain about art that's like,

0:53:56 Thomas: Not even close. Yeah.

0:54:43 Jamie: Oh yeah, it's talking about like the gross social inequities in our society, how boring, I can't make sense of that because if the, if the gross social inequities of our society are boring to you, that seems to me an even, like, more profound moral indictment, because we can't just, and I think that's part of the message of the movie, or what I took away from it at least, that, like, our indifference to it, our insensibility to it, are our willingness to just sort of go along with it and participate in it instead of being like, oh, actually, you know what, it doesn't, there's a lot of suffering here that is like absolutely non-necessary and could stop if we just did things, things differently, which we have the resources and ability to do, I think is part of what's so important to talk about, the

0:54:50 Thomas: Well, absolutely.

0:55:31 Thomas: Yeah, I think that we do need to dispel the notion that the United States is in any way in some sort of superior position about this. It's only gotten worse after the, um, Trump tax cuts, and I bet coronavirus is going to make an income inequality be even higher. I mean, it really is true that, like, recessions and depressions hit differently, like, it makes things even worse. Like, you would think, I, I think, you know, it depends. Depends on the details of it.

You know, I think a lot, when, when bankers are suffering or something, that maybe that would make things slightly more equal, but it doesn't really because it still hits the people on the bottom harder who are evicted and all that. In this situation, it's the people who already had the lowest paying jobs who are the most susceptible to coronavirus, as you've kind of highlighted when you talked about that. Was it New Yorker series or was it Washington Post New York or series? Yeah, like it's going to make things even worse. And I just really wish there are there are even Democrats, I think, who who don't maybe fully grapple with how unequal the U.S. really is in terms of income and wealth and have a more rosy picture than it even is. And certainly I know my conservative family and all that, like they they they buy into this idea that it's about hard work and it's blah, blah, bla, blah.

And it just isn't, you know, like hard work obviously is going to be a component of anyone's success for the most part. Like, sure. But hard work you are in this country. You know, the metrics show that if you are born into poverty, overwhelmingly you will stay in poverty. And if you were

0:56:23 Jamie: New Yorker series, yeah.

0:57:12 Jamie: Yeah.

0:57:12 Thomas: Born wealthy, overwhelmingly, you will stay wealthy.

0:57:15 Jamie: And so that's true, and I'm so, I'm not disagreeing with anything that you just said. I do want to add though, um, that even this notion, I sort of even object to this notion of hard work, um, like, yes, very often people who are successful, successful, have worked hard, very often, they're just very lucky. They happen to be in the right spot at the right time. They happened to know the right person in addition to that. But also, even if you're just lazy, you should still have enough food to eat and like not die from, you know, preventable diseases. And so, like, yes, if you want to be successful, hard work is going to be a component of that. Unfortunately, hard work alone will never be enough.

But even if you don't want to work hard, right, like, even if you're like, you know what, like, I just want to grow strawberries in the backyard, um, and like not have to struggle and I don't wanna be wildly successful, I think even those people should be able to have enough food to eat, see a doctor when they need to, and sleep under a roof. And, um, it's just striking how much inequality there is in the U.S. that we are actually worse than England, which is like generally considered to be a caricature of rigid class social structures, but there's actually more class mobility in England than there is in the United States. That's how bad we are.

0:57:34 Thomas: Yeah, right, right.

0:58:37 Thomas: Well, on that note, I think that's a good place to end. If you have any other closing thoughts, let me know, but I'm sure I forgot something I meant to say, but we've gone an hour, so hopefully we've said enough.

0:58:50 Jamie: Yeah, no, I mean, that's it. The only other thing, well, no. That's it, we'll save it for another time.

0:58:54 Thomas: I love this movie. Yeah.

0:58:56 Jamie: This was great movie, totally worth it.

0:58:56 Thomas: We'll save it for another time. I really did enjoy it. Awesome. Thanks so much, Jamie. I hope people got something out of this and hopefully people went and watched the movie so they didn't get get spoiled for them, but uh, good times. Um, hope everyone's doing well, stay safe out there if you can, and we will see you next week.

0:59:24 Clip: Thank you so much for listening to Serious Inquiries Only. If you like the show, the absolute best thing you can do is support us at patreon.com/seriouspod. The second best thing you can do is please share it on social media or by word of mouth. Speaking of social media, if you'd like to follow Jamie on Twitter, she's at Euthyphro. And follow me at SeriousPod. If you'd like to be Facebook friends, send me a request at facebook.com Thomas podcast. If you're not up for that level of intimacy, that's fine. Maybe you want to join the discussion at facebook.com/groups/SIO members. Thank you again for listening. We'll see you next time.