SIO207: Post-Debate Special!

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 207. It's the live-ish rapid response to the debate special that was promised. Jamie and I just finished watching it in our separate coasts. How are you doing Jamie?

0:00:47 Jamie: So, I think this debate aged me about a hundred years, but, you know, it

0:00:52 Thomas: So that means you're still 40 years younger than Biden.

0:00:56 Jamie: Does. That is actually, that's real math. And, you Know, I did drink a couple of glasses of wine just to power myself through this. So, this should be a really colorful conversation, I expect.

0:01:09 Thomas: Yeah, there are, of course, complications to trying to record pseudo live. You know, if there's a mic bump or a or a, you know, maybe we should just have it be a an expletive laced show. I think I'm OK with that. Sometimes I do. Sometimes they don't. Let's go ahead and let loose. If any of us accidentally swears or swears on purpose, that's fine. But we'll do our our best

0:01:30 Jamie: Yeah, so this is maybe not A kid-friendly episode. Own.

0:01:31 Thomas: Right Yeah, yeah, uh, wow. So, I, uh, you had a few glasses of wine. I did my best to watch the debate with screaming kids, uh, you know, biting each other, so that was fun. But I, I was able to get through it, and, uh, but only now I'm able to enjoy a nice delicious, uh, bourbon when the kids are in bed. So... that's my status. Hopefully everybody else has partied along with us. Let's get to it. Uh, I, I just want to thank you guys for setting your record players to play this podcast as Joe Biden instructed. Wow.

0:02:11 Thomas: What a thing. What are your opening thoughts?

0:02:11 Jamie: So, Can We just all agree that Joe Biden is absolutely terrible and should not be president of the United States, and I'm just, I'm so done with Joe Biden. I just, he's awful. No.

0:02:27 Thomas: It's funny because there are different axes of awful. And on one hand, I think for you, if I were to guess, that you think he's awful on every axis. I think that for some people it's a question of like, well, he's not so bad, but damn, he's old. And for other people it might be like, well, no, these, the age is fine, it's just that also his policies suck, you know, like, I'm kind of on a both, both, both axes.

I'm not a fan, but wow, it's funny, in the first half of the debate I actually was thinking to myself, wow, Biden, way to go, you finally, finally look younger than someone else on stage, because poor Bernie has got the throat death going, which is unfortunate. I, you know, no, no offense to Bernie or anything, I mean, that happens when you campaign, but wow, hard to listen to, he's, he's losing his voice. And I thought, wow, Biden, that comparatively he's looking young.

And then in the last half hour of the debate, I don't know what happened to him. Like, he tried to, did you, could you follow anything he said in the last

0:03:33 Jamie: No.

0:03:33 Thomas: Half hour? I couldn't even follow it. Yeah.

0:03:34 Jamie: And so You know, and, like, this is something I want to talk about too, because, like, after the debate, in one of of like the one-on-one interviews with the reporter, somebody tried pressuring, pressuring Castro about his question to Biden about whether or not he remembered what he had just said two minutes ago, and if he was being ageist and trying to insinuate that he was, you know, senile or something because of age. And, like, that just seemed like such a bad faith line of questioning, because one, toward the end of the debate, the debate, Joe Biden really was incoherent and not making any any sense. And he literally was denying that he had just said what he had just said. And Castro was totally in line to say, like, dude, no, you literally just said everybody'd be able to buy into Medicare. What are you talking about? Did you forget? And I just, you know, well,

0:03:56 Thomas: Yeah and it yeah, and it makes it so I can't really trust anything. Like, maybe Biden could have been right about on that point, but I can't even trust it, because I don't know, like, he's saying, oh, no, I didn't say that, I did say that, and they will, won't buy in, or they will buy in, I don't even know, what I'm gonna have to do a bunch of research to track down what that even was, you know, it's frustrating, you can't really one cost yeah but

0:04:50 Jamie: I mean, good luck. Good luck trying to find any sort of like detailed plan that he's put, put out, because he doesn't have any, um, you know, he's, he's very quick to sort of jab at Warren or to jab at Sanders about how they're gonna pay for this, but Warren has very detailed plans, you know, Bernie's are, are less detailed, but detailed, he's got like crayon drawings of, you know, Beau Biden in the hospital, so that he can say, like, look, this touches me deeply, I care about healthcare. And, like, I think it's true in like a certain sense that, like, he cares about healthcare as, like, a concept. But there's not really any evidence he's put thought into how this will work for, like, everyday Americans. And I think nothing makes that clearer than when he says, well, like, you know, if you lose your job, you could just buy into Medicare. Because he completely doesn't realize that if you loose your job, you don't have money to buy into healthcare.

0:05:47 Thomas: They can just buy money though, is the thing, yeah.

0:05:54 Jamie: Right. Right. Like he just, he's like, he just like in this alternate universe. And he's just he just seems completely divorced from what life is like, for people who, you know, have to pay their bills through working.

0:06:02 Thomas: Yeah Look, I know you are very anti-Biden, I myself am very anti Biden. I will say, though, that he, he, he melted just a tiny portion of my frozen anti-briden heart with his personal story at the end, and I, did you know, that's compelling, it doesn't mean he should be president, but it was a touching story. Well, he talked about his life. It was a weird thing. We can talk about the format. For some reason, they decided no closing statements, and they were just doing a last question that was like, what's your biggest setback? He talked about His family, and it was touching, but that doesn't means he should leave the country. Anyway, I guess we're getting ahead of ourselves. Maybe we should try to go back. I do the thing. I don't know if you do this. I always start out the first half hour. I'm just typing notes, you know, I'm like, oh yeah, they said this, they said that at a certain point is a three hour thing, right? Or maybe, uh, yeah,

0:06:28 Jamie: Wait, which one?

0:07:06 Jamie: Yeah,

0:07:07 Thomas: Three hours, maybe the first, maybe the first time. The I've got pretty good energy after halfway. I'm Like, all right, I get it. Like, you Know, I'll type a note here and there when something happens, but I always, this has happened the third time, I guess the third debate or wow, wait, is it times two? So is this the fifth debate I've had to watch?

0:07:07 Jamie: Three hours.

0:07:24 Thomas: Yeah. Because the first two were times two. So, like, this is the fifth fucking thing I've had to watch. And, like partway through, I'm just like, okay, I know who these people are. I know Who I Like. Whatever. Like, is this, I guess, maybe I'll start with an opening broad meta question to you. Do you think that this debate is really helpful?

0:07:24 Jamie: I don't know. Right?

0:07:49 Thomas: Is this helping you make a decision? Lay it on me. Tell me your thoughts.

0:07:49 Jamie: No, no, no. Absolutely not. This is such a farce in an exercise of democracy. I am reasonably informed. I'm reasonably intelligent. I can sit down and read a book for hours. And yet, even for me, paying attention to this for three hours starts to become tediously painful. And it's just, I think an act of bad faith to expect, you know, ordinary Americans to carve out three hours of their life to meaningfully pay attention to this in the middle of everybody adjusting, going back to school and working 60 hours a week and everything else that needs to be done. This just seems like a farce to me. I

0:07:55 Thomas: Yeah.

0:08:46 Thomas: Uh, I heard some microphone noises, but I'll assume that you were making like a, like a dictator, you're like pounding the the podium.

0:08:54 Jamie: Think I am.

0:08:55 Thomas: Like, make, okay. That's that's fine.

0:08:55 Jamie: I'm sorry. I need to like belt

0:08:57 Thomas: No, that's okay, that said, that's okay. Uh, yeah, and you know, here's one thing that I heard somebody say on a podcast, of which I listened to too many news podcasts and stuff so I can't remember what it was, but you know, they were talking about this debate format, and you know, I think that I'll tell you this, though, of all of the debates, this might have been the best one.

In it, now it's, I think it's more boring because it wasn't the first one, there's, it's less novel now, we kind of, you know, we know, but like, had this been the first debate, you know, maybe it would have been the best because I think the moderators did a pretty good job.

I think, with the exception of the one thing I'm going to yell at in five minutes, the question that they keep throwing at Elizabeth Warren that bothers me so much, I think they did a good job and they spread it around. It didn't seem like the CNN one, I think it was, where they're just trying to get the Republican soundbite they wanted. They're just throwing Republican talking points and trying to give people to say a certain soundbite. That drove me nuts.

So this one, you know, I want to give ABC and Univision credit, you know, it was, I think it was about as well run as any of these have been. Uh, that's my opinion, feel free to disagree with me, but, um, but

0:08:57 Jamie: Myself into the chair. Yeah.

0:10:14 Thomas: I, but yeah, good, yeah.

0:10:14 Jamie: So the no I mean, the questions were mostly good, um, aside from them asking Cory Booker about whether or not everybody should adopt his vegan diet, which was just like unadulterated bullshit. The, you know, the questions weren't good, they were insightful, I just, you know, there's just too many people on stage. There was a period of time where it had been like, I want to say, 30, 40 minutes before we had heard from Bernie or Warren again, and those Are those are the people that, like, 30, 40 percent of Democratic voters are tuning in to listen to? How can you go that long without asking them to weigh in? And I think we're at a point now where we need to to divvy them up a little bit differently, and we can have a top tier debate, and then I don't know, some sort of like survivor or second tier debate, where whoever the top two winners of the second tier debate are get to be in the next debate with the top tier candidates. This

0:10:45 Thomas: It was weird well meanwhile

0:11:17 Jamie: Is just too many moving pieces.

0:11:18 Thomas: I'm just I'm so relieved that it was only 10, I mean this for me, it was a it was vacation. Yeah, I agree. Uh, but the thing I was gonna say, sorry, I forgot, I lost track, it is lots of thoughts, but I heard somebody talk about the fact, and this isn't the first time I've heard this, but I, I think I haven't brought it up on the show before, how, uh, how long are we from the point where the DNC and maybe the RNC just do their own debates?

And I actually think it might be a really good idea, because you know, maybe this is me being idealistic, but, uh, you know, this might have been on Pod Save America, honestly, they talked about the possibility of what if the Dmc, now in, in this modern era where, you know, sure, in 1975 or whatever, you know, three channels controlled all of television and the airwaves, and you had to go through these three broadcasting companies, oh, I think it was two and then it was three, you know, in order to get on TV.

Nowadays, obviously, we don't live in that reality. We live in a reality where internet broadcasting is a huge thing, streaming is a big thing. And the DNC could just be like, well, we're putting on our own debate, and you know, if people want to carry it, they can, maybe they, you know, maybe they negotiate or something, or we just throw the thing up on YouTube and it'll get a, it'll get a ton of views, and what they could do is take control of the process and, for example, have a climate debate that is actually moderated by scientists. Could you imagine, could

0:11:22 Jamie: Right. Oh

0:12:51 Thomas: You imagine such a thing? I actually couldn't either, I was trying to think, like, how would that go? And then I realized the reason it would be so weird is the moderators would be the people you'd want to just hear from, like, you just want to hear them say, like, here's what I think, and then you'd want the candidates to be like, yes, you know, or, you know, who, here's who I agree with. But, uh, how, what do you think of that possibility?

0:12:51 Jamie: My, I can't. I mean, that would be absolutely brilliant. I would also love it, especially if candidates are going to start trying to like throw out lines from philosophers as though they've actually read them to have, you know, a debate moderated by philosophers as well. The problem with this though, I know.

0:13:27 Thomas: Yeah tough luck with that, that's never happening

0:13:29 Jamie: No. Well, listen, I got some notes about Kierkegaard because I've just about had it with Biden throwing him out there.

0:13:30 Thomas: Wait did somebody oh you know, I might have missed that, what was that, what happened stops

0:13:38 Jamie: He did. So Biden had quoted Kierkegaard again saying that faith works best in the dark, which is from KierKegaard's Gospel of Suffering. And I hate tweeted at Biden because I just really don't like him. And there's so many other things that Kier Kegaard said, said, including that, you know, if a man is really suited to a task, the best way to tell that is he'll have some reluctance to it. So I am totally willing to support Biden's run for presidency as soon as he drops out of the campaign.

0:14:11 Jamie: That's, that's my deal. Yeah, so I would love to have like real climate scientists moderating the climate debate, to be able to help us decipher what's real science, what the consensus actually is, what our options are, just how much money it's really going to take to do this, and what the consequences of not doing it will be. Um, I'm not terribly optimistic that we're going to have that, because there seems to be a sort of incestuous relationship between a lot of these media outlets and the DNC and the Republican party as well, where, you know, there's a lot of money to be made for access to these kinds of events, and that's what keeps the wheels turning and the lights on, and that's not something that structurally we have a way of addressing yet. Yeah.

0:14:09 Thomas: Running yeah, yeah, well Yes and no, I think that goes both ways, you know, the money thing goes both ways, the DNC could cut out the middleman and actually try to capitalize more by hosting itself. Um, I am, still my mind is still blown trying to imagine a panel of climate scientists moderating a debate, like, how, how weird would that be, you know, like, like that's, that's almost like a, it's almost like a spelling bee. You've got like the people who have the answers would be not the ones asked, like, answering questions. It would be like, okay, we know the answers mostly because we're climate scientists, why don't you pitch us on your policy? It would almost be like a judge show, it'd be like an American Idol kind of thing, like, you sing us your climate policy and we'll poke holes in it or something. It'd been interesting, thing it's never going to happen, yeah, no yeah, I won't say never, but it's unlikely to happen, I think

0:15:54 Jamie: And you know that would be a better it's not going to happen because just the I mean we're like, Michigan, well, that's not a good example, but like Kentucky is, is more likely to be like oceanfront property before we have actual scientists monitoring these debates. That's just sort of where we're at. And it's really unfortunate because especially with climate change, this is like a real existential crisis looming before us. And we are totally unequipped to deal with it or to even process it. Nobody really understands the science. Again, Like, I'm reasonably intelligent, and I don't understand most of the climate science stuff.

And so this is part of the limitations of our politics is that we're going to get 10 political candidates on stage to debate, you know, how to deal with this when the truth of the matter is, none of them actually really understand it. And none of them are actually qualified to identify which of the policies are best to do it.

But we're going to determine who's going to be in charge based on who has the best sound bitey sort of bumper sticker slogan, which again, we're making sense of with no real understanding of the implications of the threat we're facing. It's not a good system. So

0:16:15 Thomas: Yeah, I I agree mostly, and in, in a weird way, I actually feel like I am less cynical on this question, and I can give the more like optimistic answer, which is, on one hand, I would love it if, you know, if we could vote for a scientist, and, and I know there have been some scientists, uh, who have, who have run in more, you know, statewide elections and stuff, that's super cool, and I would love more scientists to be in office, but, uh, barring that, I think there is some value, and there's, there's some ability we have to look at candidates and say, okay, do you have what it takes to recognize who the people you need to put in charge are?

And I think we can, you know, somewhat get at that. For example, when Elizabeth Warren says, you know, I want an actual public school teacher in charge of the Department of Education who actually cares about, you know, our public schools, that's an example, you know, where it's something like that.

And in fairness, I think a lot of these candidates would be willing to recognize the expertise that they need to bring in, they're not, they're not, like you say, I mean, they're never going to be the experts, but they can at least bring in the experts and be smart enough to recognize what they don't know, here's

0:18:33 Jamie: I think, I think that's totally fair. I think of, you know, the majority of the candidates we saw on stage, for the most part, do have an awareness that they would like, need to look to actual experts in order to address this. You know. You

0:18:52 Thomas: My other question to you to open, we still haven't even gotten to the debate. No, we kind of have. Did you miss Marianne Williamson? Did you mess her? I Kind of did. I did a little bit. Like, I, I, 10, missed her.

0:19:02 Jamie: Know. I I I have mixed feelings on Mary Wilson, but like, there's And

0:19:12 Thomas: I'm pretty non-mixed. Like, I don't like her, but like, I still, like it was so fun to have this, like. Like, now we'll pause this debate while a living horoscope delivers a speech. You know, like, it's so weird.

0:19:27 Jamie: That's sort of what I mean. Like, as you know, as I've mentioned before, I've read like an irredeemable number of wizard books, and there's a part of me that's like sort of like sympathetic to the idea That what But these pro-wizard

0:19:39 Thomas: Jamie Lombardi is running on a pro-wizard platform. Anyone who is able to up the number of wizards and wizardry involved in politics has Jamie's vote.

0:19:44 Jamie: Platform. But like seriously, I'm kind of like sympathetic to the idea that what we need during troubled political times is, you know, like a wizard.

0:20:01 Thomas: Lord of the Rings. Yeah.

0:20:02 Jamie: And like clearly she's the leading candidate of the wizard contingent. And so there's like a, yeah.

0:20:06 Thomas: True. I'll give her that.

0:20:11 Jamie: And so There's a part of me that kind of, like, enjoys it, but in like a not, like I just totally.

0:20:16 Thomas: Yeah. Let's let's see what the let's what The Soothsayers have to say. Marianne Williamson. Yeah,

0:20:22 Jamie: Totally see her like throwing runes up in the air and kind of reading the tea leaves and there's a part of me

0:20:23 Thomas: Yeah. Now, next question at Marianne Williams. And what are your chicken bones tell you about? About.

0:20:27 Jamie: Yeah. And so, like, what, you know, what's the old joke, right? Like, you take, you take a look around and American democracy is not doing so well, and I cannot make heads or tails of what is happening with the British parliament, that, like, all of a sudden strange ladies lying in ponds handing out swords doesn't seem like such a bad way to organize a government. Um, and so, like, I appreciate her for that, but also, no, just, no, except,

0:20:54 Thomas: Yeah, now I'm with you. All right. So, you know, it's funny, the opening statements. One thing I thought is I do really feel like our batch of 10 candidates are pretty rhetorically gifted. Like nobody had an opening statement where I was like, well, you're a dummy, you You know, like, and I, I mean, maybe you'll disagree, but I, you know, but it also kind of felt like a convention. It felt like the, the democratic national convention, didn't it? If it didn't feel like they were all warming us up for like the actual nominee, cause they're all like, we need to unify. It was all unified, unified, unify, unified for the whole, almost everybody's opening statements was unified. Yeah. I kind of liked, uh, honestly.

0:21:38 Jamie: For Kamala Harris, who really came out swinging, which, and again, I, not really a Kamala Harass fan, but really liked that she came out swinging, really liked it. She began the debate with, like, hey, guess what, the only reason the president of the United States, ostensibly the most powerful man in the world, is not in jail right now is because it's unofficial, you know, Department of Justice policy not to indict a sitting president. And it's a real, like, indictment on how dark this timeline is, that that fact is kind of moved to the sort of background noise of our lives and isn't consuming every thought that we have, right.

0:21:51 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:22:24 Thomas: Well, because God Forbid anyone talk about the most corrupt piece of shit president in history, because then that means we're not focusing on issues enough. I mean, I've said it before, I don't think, when you've been on the show, but I do get a little frustrated at how much we've decided we have to kick ourselves in our own nuts because we don't want to be running against Trump. We want to be running for stuff. And yeah, yeah, OK, fine. But we can also mention that the Republicans put into office the most corrupt president, like, unequivocally the most corrupted president ever. And and and honestly, like the biggest piece of shit, like he doesn't even have views, like, yes, there were super racist, terrible presidents. This guy is so bad, he only cares about himself, himself, that's all he cares about, yeah.

0:23:12 Jamie: Right, Totally. Seems plausible to me that, like, one of the things we could run for and on is that, you know, the President of the United States is subject to our laws and constitution. That seems Like a really compelling campaign message to me. And it's frustrating to me with how craven so many Democrats seem to be, because they're not sure that's a winning electoral strategy. And it's like, dude, we're putting children in cages, the Department of Justice is like pretty much told us he's committed crimes, and they're relying on Congress to do something about it, like, how, like, what good is it even electing you if, when you're in office, you don't do anything with the power we've given you? Oh,

0:23:25 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:23:59 Thomas: It's very frustrating. Um, and I, I also, I mean, okay, unify, yes, I do want unity and all that, but, like, you know, okay, I, I am going to fast forward a minute, uh, or or 30, but tying it together, there was a moment when I, I think it was when Julian Castro was calling out Biden. And then Buttigieg, who I have very mixed feelings about, sometimes I like him, sometimes I really dislike him, very mixed, but I like a lot about him, but anyway, he came in and he tried to do the, look, this is why nobody likes these debates.

0:24:41 Jamie: That was so gross.

0:24:41 Thomas: It was really annoying to me. And I'm 100% with Julian, who was like, dude, this is an election, what do you want us to do, all get up here and be like, we agree, we agree, like, how do we pick you? You know, like, we're, we need to pick one of you. So yeah, I get that, you don't want to go super dirty and you don't wanna, like, you know, like go too far and in doing the Republicans' work for them, but also, yes, you're going to have disagreements, and you're going to like try to differentiate yourself from the other candidates, that's what we're doing here, that's why we're all watching this fucking thing, yeah.

0:24:41 Jamie: I Agree, I had seen on Twitter somebody had said that, um, and I'm sorry that I don't remember who it was that I can't give them credit, but they had said that Pete Buttigieg was like the living embodiment of rainbow capitalism, and I just really thought that hit the nail on the head, you know, he's like this, you know, perfectly tuned weather vane trying to pick up, you know, precisely the right talking point so that he hits just that right level of intersecting circles of Venn diagrams of the Democratic support, but without actually having any convictions.

And we are at a really dangerous time, um, we're, we're looking at climate change, which again is like an existential crisis, this, this is threatening species extinction for us, we have a lunatic in the White House, and we need people with the courage of their convictions who can advocate strong policies, we need a leader, we, we need somebody who can leverage, you know, the office of the White House to motivate and inspire people to act together for a common purpose and to outline a goal.

And if you're going to get on a debate stage and be like, oh, well, we just can't disagree with each other, like, you're not going to be able to do what we need you to do to see us through these times.

0:26:44 Thomas: It's fine to say, hey, in so far as we all agree one of us needs to beat Trump, we can agree, and we can agree that we're are largely way better than Trump, we all can agree on that, we can all agree that Beto had a great El Paso moment, various times during the debate, literally every single candidate had to say Beto was amazing in El Paso on the gun stuff, like so great, it was, it was fine, but also kind of funny, like the seventh time it happened, we're like, all right, okay, we get it, we love Beto on the gun thing in El Pasco. But anyway, we can all agree on that. We can all agreed that Trump needs to go, but like apart from that, let's, let's debate. So, I got, give me, bear with me, I'm sorry, but I got to yell for a second. I am so fucking sick of this.

So it opened up and, you know, Biden weirdly accused Warren of not being able to pay for her health plan, which, that cannot be right because she has released so many plans about how, you know, her wealth tax and her other taxes are going to pay for this stuff.

I don't know what he was talking about there, but then we get the one time where I really, uh, really was mad at the questioners, and it's happened in every fucking debate, which is we have to go to Elizabeth Warren and say, hi, Elizabeth Warren, a bunch of Republicans would really love it if we got you to say that middle, middle-class taxes would be raised to pay for health insurance, so can you please, pretty please, say that, because we want you to say those magic words, that middle-class taxes will go up, because we love those magic worlds, because then Republican, and I'm just so fucking sick of it.

You know, it's so funny because throughout my past, I have always hated that politicians dodge questions, you know, get so old, they pivot, they're experts at pivoting to what they want to talk about, the dodgy questions. This is the one time where I've been like, yes, keep dodging that fucking stupid question, because it's meaningless. And all they want you to do is try to say something that Republicans can run on, when the real thing that matters is, what will your costs do? Will your costs go up or down? That's all that matters. This

0:27:14 Jamie: Well,

0:28:59 Thomas: Isn't.

0:28:59 Jamie: I Know.

0:29:00 Thomas: It's not. Well, yeah, go ahead.

0:29:02 Jamie: So, like, I definitely want to get to, like, all of the reasons I don't like Joe Biden, and especially all his history of horrible anti-abortion votes, but I'd also like to remind everybody that Joe Biden had no problem voting for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan that we've now been engaged in for almost 20 years without being told how we were going to pay for this.

0:29:25 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:25 Jamie: Because somehow, when we're going to bomb and destabilize other governments, we don't have to worry how we're going to pay for those things. But if it's preventing, you know, half a million American families from going into medical bankruptcy a year, all of a sudden, we need to fine tune the economics of that. And I just think it's utter crap.

0:29:43 Thomas: That Excellent point, you're totally right. Um, I'm also just tired of these moderators asking Elizabeth Warren about the fucking will. That Can you get the sound bite of will, it has gone, it's again, it's a thing, it's like, if God, it's, I don't know why this is so hard. There's a thing called health care that we, the average family, on average or whatever, we have to pay X amount for.

And if Elizabeth Warren comes up with a plan where, you know, mostly the rich are going to pay more in taxes, but maybe it also impacts some level of quote unquote middle class, I don't know, yes, maybe technically their taxes could go up a few bucks, but then the cost of the thing they have to pay for that everybody has to pay voor goes way down, they save money.

And I'm so sick of the these moderators trying to just catch the one end of that, yes but will the other thing go up, even though the one thing is going down way more. It's like, can we just be done with this forever? How many times are we gonna do this every debate, we've done this. Yeah.

0:30:45 Jamie: So I completely agree with you. It is so so infuriating to see moderators do this over and over again, because you know, they're all smart enough to do basic math. And let's say, you know my taxes go up $5,000 a year, but my insurance drops $10,000 year. So yes, it's technically true that my taxes went up, but overall I'm spending less money. So this is a net benefit. And so when they phrase it in this way, it makes me just want to start throwing things. Because the job of the moderators, the job Of the media is supposed to be to help inform us and to help us make better decisions. And yet, they are intentionally intentionally framing it in ways so that it's confusing to people. And I just, like I said, I just want to throw things.

0:31:07 Thomas: That's Great.

0:31:32 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I'm realizing that we're, you know, there's no way we're getting chronologically through this thing. Uh, we're already at a half hour. Um, I just want to, maybe I'll point out a favorite moment, maybe I'l throw it, then, you know, we can alternate or something. Um, but one of my, my favorite things, again, people know that I'm a Warren fan, but a lot of my favorites things weren't, weren't necessarily Elizabeth Warren. I think that a lot of candidates had really good moments here and there.

But I did really like right after this, where Biden gave the oh, we want people to be able to keep their insurance because they have, people, so many people love it, blah, blah. And then Warren had what I think, up until now, hasn't really been said in these debates that I've heard, which is people don't love their health health insurance, they love their doctors. You know, like, they want, they like the care they get, they like their doctors, they like their specialists.

They don't, they're not in love with their health insurance. So if we can come up with a plan that, uh, you know, a public, uh, plan, that where everybody can keep their doctors, but we take care of, you know, the state takes care of the insurance part and we save all the billions that insurance companies, you know, bilk us for, that's going to be great. And I thought that was awesome, that somebody finally said that in a debate, and it was my favorite candidate, Elizabeth Warren. But I'll throw it over to you, did you have a favorite moment coming up? Next I'll try to go in order.

0:33:09 Thomas: I guess but

0:33:09 Jamie: Yes, we're going to have to take turns tag teaming on the war and love, because that for me was one of the standout lines of the debate. And he really thought it captured this perfectly. I can't pronounce her last name, so forgive me, but Amy Klobuchar, who I would just, you know, I know we did cancel culture the last time, I would like to cancel her.

0:33:11 Thomas: Sure. I Agree.

0:33:32 Jamie: Um, you know, but you know, she, I just felt like everything that she said about Medicare and the 149 million people who would not have their private insurance was just so disingenuous. And I really liked the way that Warren answered this, that nobody likes having to fight with their insurance company, nobody likes having to make 400 phone calls to get a necessary life-saving treatment approved. What they like is the humanity of the doctor who cares for them, or the nurses who show their compassion. And what we're really trying to focus on is streamlining who pays for that so people who need care can worry about getting better instead of how they're going to afford it. It's

0:34:19 Thomas: I, yeah, I don't, Amy Klobuchar, you know, I probably don't hate her as much as you do. I think she's a great, she's a great purple state senator, if every, and I don't know, I mean, Minnesota, is it technically, what is Minnesota now, is it purple, is it blue

0:34:37 Jamie: Like a very blue purple, if it's purple, oh

0:34:39 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I agree, but like, if she were in Joe Manchin's position, for example, like Yeah, like, she's what I would want, a like an actual purple state, or even red state, if you were able to win a Senate election as a Democrat, she's what I would want them to be. She's safely liberal in many meaningful, important ways, but not liberal enough for me to be the leader of the party, to be president. That's how I feel. I'm trying to be as fair as can be. She's very liberal on many things.

She is also not liberal and progressive enough on so many, many things. And I don't, I don't personally, I don't think the message of let's run on being centrist and, and kind of getting some stuff done, if Republicans say it's okay, I just don't think that's what people want right now. And if they did want that, honestly, Joe Biden is probably their candidate already.

So I honestly don't really know why she's still around, other than, and, you know, Minnesota is kind of a key state these days, and it's in an area of key states, and she can appeal to those people. But I don't know, I'm not, I'm not a fan. You know, I, she should be a purple state senator, and that's what I would want her to be like. That's how I feel comfortable with her.

0:34:45 Jamie: I hate your mansion, yeah.

0:36:00 Jamie: And so, like, that's fine, she's not pulling high enough for me to consider it worthy of like too much of my energy to like hate on her and and worry about the specifics of all her different positions, because it's just not likely she's going to go very much farther in this race. And so, fine, she can be, you know, the central senator of Minnesota, and like, that, that's enough, and I'll just, you know, I'll save my ire for hating on Joe Biden. Um, and seems like a fair compromise, you know.

Warren also had another great line in this debate that I really liked, talking about how, you know, Afghanistan is not a military problem, and we can't bomb our way to a solution, and I really liked this answer, and I, and I had tweeted about this, because it really struck me, this is so obviously the correct answer, we have been at war for almost 20 years, and we, we are not actually any safer. We have not made it less likely that we're going to be targets of terrorism. And yet we continue to invest in this particular strategy. And it just makes me want to sort of like weep for humanity, that like, we can't figure this out. But then, you know, Elizabeth Warren is up there, and she says, we have to try different tools. And I was like, yes, finally, finally, somebody's got like a breath of reason here to address these complicated problems. And I also really appreciated that. Right.

0:36:42 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:37:31 Thomas: So, I, uh, again, as I said, I, uh, I had, I thought a lot of non-Warren candidates had good moments. Here's one I thought, Beto, as much as I think he shouldn't be here, he should be running for the fucking Senate in Texas, uh, I thought he had a really good, and I just can't help but, but, you know, acknowledge he had a really great little speech on, he referenced, you know, the 1619, you knows, 1619 Project kind of, and he had really great speech on just kind of racial disparities in different aspects of our society. And it was really good, you now, and ended it with a call for some sort of reparations. I thought it was real good. I thought he nailed a lot of things, and so that was another moment that I was like, alright, right, that was good, still don't, you know, still not my guy, but it was a good speech.

0:38:26 Jamie: And so, you know, if this were a field of two or three or four candidates where there wasn't anybody articulating that kind of understanding about the way that our history of racism has informed our current political moment, I could be like, like yeah, you know, that's great. Um, but Cory Booker also had a great statement on the role that racism plays in our country, particularly as it relates to the prison system that we have. He had, he had made a point that there are currently more African Americans incarcerated, forced to, you know, do bait, what amounts to like slave labor, than there were slaves in during the time that we had slaves as an institution in this country. And so we don't really need Beto to do that. And so I just, I'm just kind of like frustrated, like just drop out.

0:39:19 Jamie: You're polling at like 2%, like it's not going to happen. And, You know, in order to really pass any of the legislation that we need to, to address these issues that you claim to be able to understand, we're really going to need you in the Senate. So that would be a great place for you to invest your time and resources. So,

0:39:19 Thomas: Yeah agreed I go back, maybe this is a minor point, I go black and forth on that stat, I've heard that for years actually, and part of me is like, wow, that's incredible, and then another part of me is, yeah, but we also just have way more people, like if you said, is that, is it meaningful to say we have more, because they're like, population since then is obviously just exponentially increased, increased

0:39:59 Jamie: I mean that's totally true, and it reminds me, you know, of when Mitt Romney and Barack Obama were debating, he had, Mitt, I can't, oh, I can't remember exactly what Mitt Romney had said, but something about like fewer naval ships or something and Barak Obama retorted back, oh yeah, like we also have fewer bayonets, um just because, like, you know, the times change. And, And like, as you pointed out, like population increases. And so that's obviously true and a non-insignificant component of it.

0:40:15 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah I go back and forth, I'm not, I'm not sure, like, I think it's meaningful, then part of me is like, is it meaningful, but like, yes, either way, agreed on the point of criminal justice reform of course

0:40:38 Jamie: Right. It's just, it's just kind of the idea. I think it's, you know, it'S not meaningful in sense like we just have, it's true. We have more people now. And so those sorts of numerical comparisons are a bit, you know, fuzzy because they don't have a one-to-one relation. But at the same time, it's a really powerful metaphor when you think about the horror of slavery. And then to think that, like, despite how bad that was, and all of the people that we committed this egregious crime against, there are actually more people that we are harming now than this

0:40:39 Thomas: Yeah it's interesting yeah yeah yeah no

0:41:13 Jamie: Thing that we recognize as a serious human rights violation. And I think that's a powerful analogy to get people to put it into perspective.

0:41:13 Thomas: True yeah definitely yeah Agreed. Uh, oh, I think it's your turn, if you had another moment you wanted to highlight. Oh.

0:41:28 Jamie: So I don't have another good moment to highlight, but I'd like to pick on Pete Buttigieg. Good.

0:41:31 Thomas: That's Fine, because I have a decent Buddha judge moment, maybe I can, uh, salve his wounds. Go ahead, yeah.

0:41:42 Jamie: So I, I do not care for his, um, pushback to Warren and Sanders push for Medicare for All with his claim that, you know, we should trust Americans on health care, we should let them choose. This just sounds like some mealy mouth insurance funded poll testing nonsense, and, and I just hate it, you know, I just, I hate it. You know, this is a thing that comes up a lot in, you know, bioethics, when we talk about informed consent, that are these sorts of things really informed consent when someone has just been told, for example, that, you know, they have a most likely fatal diagnosis of, like, like, stage four pancreatic cancer, are they really in a state of mind where they're able to meaningfully evaluate the different treatments to them?

Are they really able to understand the difference between what a 20% risk of side effect A means versus a 10% risk, risk of side effect Be? And it seems like not really. And so it just, it's, you know, it just strikes me as really disingenuous that somebody who's running on a brand of, look how smart I am, isn't smart enough to also know that these questions about healthcare are really complicated, and really above the pay grade of most people looking at them. Like, it's just not real deal.

0:42:11 Thomas: Yeah yeah I Totally agree that this strikes me as a game theory decision, this strikes me as, I need to find a way to stand out in some small quantity, and I need, I'm going to triangulate between the positions, and among the positions that are already there, because otherwise I'm not going to make a splash, you know, like, if, if he just signs on to, you know, Sanders's plan or Warren's plan, like, he's not going make any splash doing that, and people will just say, well, why don't I just vote for them?

So this strikes me as, this is my opinion, but I, I think you're saying the same thing. And I agree. This strikes me as, all right, what sounds good as a way of distinguishing myself, differentiating on these things. And, I trust Americans to decide for themselves, is totally that kind of thing, you know? And I disagree with you that it is bullshit.

Like, I don't, I think the best thing for Americans in this particular context is for for them to not have to fucking worry about it, you know, like somebody who's got a job, barely scraping by, the last thing they need to be doing is a be tethered to the health insurance of their employer that they might, you know, so like, they might have to stay in a bad job that they don't want, because they maybe have insurance, or if that's not even how they're getting it, for them to have to, like, dig through documents and figure out exactly what confusing coverages they have that are inadequate, and you

0:44:58 Thomas: Know, like yeah

0:44:58 Jamie: Right, and which hospital is in network and, like, right

0:45:00 Thomas: Yeah It's, nobody would, should be doing that, I don't actually think Americans should be doing that, it would be better if we had a system that made it so people didn't have to do all that, yeah.

0:45:11 Jamie: And if this weren't like the nightmare timeline where, like, literally Siberia was on fire and John Bolton has been retconned into some sort of like liberal pacifist, I could like almost appreciate, like, playing game theory to be president of the United States, right? But like, there are real stakes, and if your brand is that, like, you're just super smart and clever, and everybody should want smart, you should be smart enough to know that this isn't the time for that kind of nonsense. And what we really need is a goddamn leader who can identify what's right and what's going to help, and not just what's going to get a bunch of clicks on Twitter.

0:45:51 Thomas: My, my position on Pete has firmly been that I personally, I find him pretty likable in a lot of ways, and I think he should win statewide office first, and, and then come back in eight years and see what happens. That's my view on him, and a few other candidates, honestly. Like, we'll see.

0:46:10 Thomas: So my next little thing I want to highlight, he did have a good line on race, though, and I just want to give credit to him. I like when he said, just as a dollar saved compounds interest, a dollar stolen also compounds interest.

And I thought that was a really good way of highlighting the historic injustice, uh, that's gone on in our country, I thought it was good line, um, and also, while I'm at it, that was a quick one, so, um, yeah, uh, Cory Booker on criminal justice reform was really good when he talked about, you know, sure, we passed this bill that is like the one bill we fucking passed under Trump, like literally almost the one actual bill that's not some, you know know, budget bullshit that they have to pass, uh, was this criminal justice reform thing that Trump tries to take credit for that he did nothing about.

And, uh, he had a great point that I, I actually don't even know that I've heard just because of probably my ignorance, but, um, I think it was a great part of it, he made that, look, we've done all this, uh, reduction of sentences. We've acknowledged that we passed a bill in which we've said, okay, the following sentences shouldn't be this long, you know, if you've done this kind of thing, you shouldn't be serving time, but we didn't make it retroactive.

So therefore, even though we all voted, we had 88 senators or whatever, which is a huge margin in this day and age, voted to, to pass this thing, we didn't make it retrospective. So we're effectively saying there's a bunch of innocent people in jail right now, or a bunch people that at least don't deserve to be in prison right now, based on a bill we've passed, but we didn't make, make it retractive. So they're stuck there. And I thought that was a good point.

0:47:49 Jamie: So this is a place where I think Booker is really strong, and I really admire him. He has been working on criminal justice for years. He's been, you know, reaching across the aisle, as they say, with Rand Paul as well, in order to get this done, and this is an issue where I think he really does have a good sense of this and he's got the right approach, yeah.

0:48:17 Thomas: Uh, I agree. Uh yeah. Uh Did you, did you have another thing to highlight while we're at your turn?

0:48:25 Jamie: It's Not a lot of good stuff, I think, I'm just I think my defaults, I'm just too angry, yeah.

0:48:27 Thomas: Yeah, that's fine. You can do, I'll do, yeah, I'LL do highlights. You do low lights and we're good.

0:48:33 Jamie: So I mean, we, I haven't we haven't picked on Kamala Harris, so, um, I could do that, a little bit, um, I think rhetorically, she is very talented, um, she, is she obviously comes to these debates well prepared um, and I admire that about her, and so I'm gonna preface everything I say with that, um, but there's a sense in which a lot of what she says seems constructed for the, the purpose of having the sort of moment then can go viral, and not because it's actually authentic.

And so she says, at one point during the debate, you know, that her mom told her to never let anybody tell, let her to ever let anybody tell her who she was, that she got to decide who she was, and this really struck me because while she was Attorney General, she actively blocked, blocked trans prisoners from accessing the sort of health care they needed to be who they were, and I just want to draw attention to this because I'm not sure how many people are familiar with her history of, like, trans medical resources in California prisons, but there seems to be this real disconnect.

I don't know how you get up on stage and talk about the importance of, of being oneself and not letting anybody define who you are, while actively blocking other people, and particularly vulnerable people, from being able to do the exact same thing you're now saying was the greatest advice you've ever received. It

0:48:38 Thomas: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

0:50:14 Thomas: Yeah. That's a, that's good point. That's not something I've looked into, so thanks for adding that. And it'll have to look, that'll under the attorney general's jurisdiction to decide, like, if prisoners get access to

0:50:25 Jamie: Was either as attorney general or district attorney. I'm sorry I've had like too many glasses of wine. I'm not remembering exactly which official capacity she was in, but there were prisoners in the, the system in California who wanted to access different sorts of trans-related health care that she refused and fought them for, yeah.

0:50:27 Thomas: Yeah. No, no, that's fine, so I thought, uh, Harris, ever since the first debate, in which I thought she was really good, I think she has been, in my opinion, quite bad since then, and I want to be very careful, like, I, and, and please feel free, you know, if you, if, to call me out, I don't want tobe unfair to her and, you know, grade her on metrics that I wouldn't grade a man, or that, that kind of thing.

I want to be very conscious of that, but I, it strikes me that, uh, even though I thought she was great in the first debate, I think that it's mainly rhetorical in, in which she's been great. And I think when you live by that, you can also die by that. Like when you're, when you're, what you're bringing is a great rhetorcial flourish, and not, maybe not so much on the policy front. I think you, that can also count against you. And, I found it's, it's interesting.

I, her, her tone during this debate was, was very weird to me. You know, did, did it feel to you? And please, again, if, if this is unfair, let me know, but did it feel like the, the way she was talking was sort of like in a, in a, like, I don't know how to, how to word it, but like casual kind of above it all tone all the time.

You know, like I, I thought in the first debate she was able to have that above it all tone, which is, can be really effective, which I liked in times, but, but then she also would be able to switch up to being like, no, this is important, here's thing that's important to me. I felt like we never really got that into tonight's debate. I didn't really get a whole lot of here's thing that's important that I care about. I got a lot of, like, I don't know, like, just I don't remember a whole lot of substance to what she said, you know?

0:52:25 Jamie: So actually, like, I had the exact same concerns listening to her talk, because, like, my gut response was just like, ugh, this sounds so inauthentic and, like, I just don't believe anything you're saying. And it was the same sort of meta worry, like, am I judging her unfairly? Is this the result of my own, like, unexamined implicit racial bias? Like, what's going on here? Um, but I, I just, it was sort of the same thing, like, it just felt fake to me, it felt overly scripted, overly practiced. And I just didn't, like, I don't have, like, an evidence thing that I can point to.

0:52:43 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:53:11 Thomas: Well, I'll say this. I don't think you or I think this about either of the other, you know, female candidates on stage. I don't think Klobuchar is inauthentic, I think she's very authentic, I think she believes in her centrist agenda, I would you know, so, like, yeah.

0:53:26 Jamie: Yeah, I think she's totally authentic in the arbitrariness of whatever the center position is. I think She's sincere in that nonsense. I

0:53:30 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I genuinely believe that, like, I find her sincere, I find Elizabeth Warren sincere, I don't, I don't really find her sincere.

0:53:43 Jamie: Don't find her sincere at all. At all. Even, like, I, I had dinner tonight with somebody whose first choice as of this moment is Kamala Harris, and I was just like, that's, doesn't make any sense to me, like, that I didn't even realize that was like a thing that, like, that was real, and I just

0:53:44 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I like yeah right Right. I don't know. I I'm with You. I, I thought I really did. I'm, I'm, I'm happy to be embarrassed by this. I thought after I tweeted this, after the first debate, I was like, oh man, she has a good chance of winning because she had a great debate, and she has, she, of the parts of the coalition you might need, assuming that, you know, Biden falls apart and all that. Uh, so I thought she would be well positioned, and I went out on a limb and said, I think she could, you know, I think she could do this. Uh, not at all. I really don't believe that, I think she hasn't followed that up very well at all. Personally, who knows, still, a lot of time, but I, yeah, sure

0:54:02 Jamie: Yeah.

0:54:33 Jamie: So I definitely want to go back to the Biden hate, because I think he will fall apart because tonight he plagiarized the the movie Rocky, um, but so

0:54:37 Thomas: Uh. Okay. Refresh me, I might again, there might have been a screaming kid during this, uh, one of my kids bit the other kid that was the whole thing

0:54:48 Jamie: He starts telling this story about how his dad gave him this really helpful advice, which was, you know, it's not about how you get knocked down, it's about how you get back up, and I, I like legitimately screamed in my, in my house, um, because that's literally what Mickey says to Rocky Balboa, it's not about how hard you get hit, it's about how hard you get back up.

0:55:09 Thomas: Yeah. Joe Biden is like, and then I said cut me you Gotta cut me, I can't see out there, you gotta to cut, oh wait, no, that was that my dad. No, I, anyway, And then Adrian, but

0:55:16 Jamie: Right. Right. Um, so Biden's gonna flame out because eventually this stuff is just gonna catch up to him, as more people start tuning in, and it is it is he's never successfully run for president, he's like good uncle Joe, he's not a president, there's

0:55:27 Thomas: Is it, but is it so that was going to be true that totally true, these are very points that I have made and hoped were right, but counterpoint to that, as, as much as I have firmly been on that side, I've totally agreed, I wouldn't, it have happened already, or is it just not enough people paying attention, maybe, maybe this is the debate, the debate that does, because his numbers have been shockingly steady, yeah.

0:55:56 Jamie: Still five months before the first vote is cast, I don't think most Americans are even really paying attention to this right now, I just don't lunatics like you and I, who, like, don't you know, who are like drowning in our own self-loathing, and they're like, hey, you Know what's a great idea? Torturing Ourselves, um, you know, we're paying too much attention to it, it's taking up too much of our brain space, and I think the average American, and it's like, I have some like vague ideas about who I like, but like, whatever, it's like

0:56:11 Thomas: I get, I, yeah, but I, yeah, I don't know, I yeah huge Rocky Fans, yeah. But When

0:56:34 Jamie: Six months away So

0:56:35 Thomas: They Tune in, right? But when, if, if they are that kind of casual person, when they tune in, will they tune in enough to see like, oh, this guy is not right? Or will they be like, let's see who it is, you know, Biden, okay, sure, like that guy, because his numbers are still really good, and it's shocking, I thought, I thought he was going to drop off sooner, I guess.

0:56:56 Jamie: It'll be interesting to see how it continues. I'm not paying that much attention to polls right now, there are just too many candidates, it's too far away, um, and they're especially after what happened in 2016, like they're just not that reliable. You know, they're a way to sort of drive the discourse, but they don't actually reliably correspond to reality in a way that is like worth taking up a lot of energy.

0:57:28 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I, if this isn't the debate that does it, though, I mean, gosh, he was, I, okay, I swear this is true, I, I think toward the end there when he was like, like, yeah, people, there's more work, he went on this rant that was just incomprehensible. I mean, it really was. And he said something like, oh, people can get more words in the house and whatever. And I think he tried to say, he started to say, oh, they have the radio on.

And then I think his octogenarian brain was like, wait, people don't listen to the radio anymore, what do they listen to? Oh, I know, it's record players. And so he corrected himself, he went from, he went from radio, which would have worked out, I had, he said radio, I'd be like, radio, no fucking radio anymore, but he corrected from radio, which is like, you know, 40s and 50s, into like the record player that everybody had into the 50s and 60s or something, you know, like he corrected up for into the 60s, I think, maybe at most, and he's like, I got the record player on all night, so the word, which also isn't scientifically sound, by the way, it doesn't work to just have words playing for your kids, this is a side note, uh, developmentally they need to see you actually speaking, it doesn't work to just play words, that's, that's old, old, old science that didn't hold up, but anyway, that was a mess, that was just the absolute mess, like, if, if that doesn't knocked some percentages off of him, then I don't know what will.

0:58:21 Jamie: Right.

0:59:01 Jamie: And so like, this is the thing about Joe Biden, though, like he's just going to stick his foot in his mouth that way again. Again and so he's he has never stopped, and it's like the one consistently alive

0:59:01 Thomas: Yeah. I hope we need a president who knows that Margaret Thatcher isn't alive anymore much less in power, yeah, yeah.

0:59:21 Jamie: Um right And so, you know, Joe, Joe Biden is gonna, Joe Biden, and you know, anybody who's not tuned in and who missed this is gonna see Joe Biden do some similarly ridiculous nonsense the next time he's given in the microphone, like, it's just who Joe Biden is, you know, Joe Biden has done his politics this way his whole life, and you know, to his credit, I guess, has gotten him all the way into the White House as vice president of the United States, so it's, you know, reasonable from his perspective that this is winning strategy, and so I don't think it's likely he's going to change very much, and he'll continue to have these sorts of foot in mouth moments alongside, you know, Senator Warren very brilliantly and succinctly explaining why actually, like, your tax is going up, but your health care cost dropping is good, I'm

1:00:23 Thomas: Well, I'm seeing that we're at like an hour, uh, I'm sure there's a lot that we didn't get to, um, I dunno know, I could be persuaded to do a little bonus for patrons, what do you think, you could do it all right, that's what we'll do, we, we didn't do a bonus for Patreons last episode, so this episode we should, we are, uh, we're gonna sign off on the regular feed here, thank you so much for listening, uh, it's been fun, there's plenty more to talk about, we're going to do little bonus, and uh, tell you what, the bonus, there might be some cursing and it might be a little looser, oh no, we're already there, okay, never mind, that won't work, no, we're, but we will keep talking over on patreon.com slash series pod, please go pledge, it is how the show goes, it is why it continues, thank you so much to the supporters, let's uh, let's hop on over, oh whoops, my uh, can you hear that, you can't hear that, that's just me.

1:00:36 Jamie: I'm good, I can do it, I'm in Well

1:01:16 Thomas: Ah, funny thing was my own software tried to tune me out, to play me out, of, of the main show, but now I'm going to do it, uh, and we'll hop on over to the bonus feed now, uh, so see you there, or see it next episode, everybody, else, all