SIO191: Why I Changed My Mind

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 191, I'm your host Thomas Smith, and you may have noticed that I was off last week, sorry about that, it's hectic these days, I think I may be able to do a makeup episode here because I have a lot to get to, we'll see how that goes though, play it by ear, but thanks for being understanding, thanks to everybody who supports and listens and recognizes that having a newborn, especially when it's the second child, is challenging, challenging to say the least, but so much to talk about today, I'm really excited, and of course the main issue, I think, what I've made the title of the episode, is about changing my mind on something pretty major, and given that we live in such a polarized environment, one of the major themes and questions I have and things I talk about on the show is, you know, what actually does change people's minds, and I realized, like, this is a topic that on one hand it's not a big deal, on another other hand, I mean, it is, it's a pretty big decision for me, I think.

And it's something that, you know, I guess people probably rarely change their mind on, and changing your mind on something at all is an interesting thing to look at. So with that said, let's talk about my son's penis, huh? Yeah, I didn't know I was going that way, did you?

0:01:53 Thomas: I'm going to talk about circumcision and I can use a voicemail. It turns out I had somebody who was very interested in this very issue. I was already thinking about talking about it just for the mind-changing aspect. And, you know, it's an issue. It's something to think about, of course. But someone left a vocemail that asked the question. So I think I'll go ahead and play that. Use that as a launching point.

0:02:15 Voicemail: Hey Thomas, this is Nick from California, a patron, it's probably the most personal question you'll ever be asked, and it's not about you, did you circumcise your male child?, I'm asking that because we actually mirror each other's life circumstances, I had my daughter slightly before you had your daughter, and now I'm having a son slightly after you're having your son, so we have that in common, we both had a female child, now having a male child, I'm an atheist, I am circumcised. And my wife and I are looking at it, and something my pediatrician said, that there are some mild benefits to having it done, casted it out my whole, yeah, I'm not mutilating my son's genitals for the fun of it.

0:03:02 Voicemail: Like, I am not doing it. There does not really seem to be enough of a benefit to warrant it, to now me being like, well, crap, is there any benefit? I mean, I do pay you. But not enough to do my homework for me.

But if you happen to have an opinion informed recently by your current life experience, and we still have two months, hopefully, in my due dates, our due dates are not for two more months, but if you have any information on this, I'd appreciate it in any form, because, honestly, it's very pertinent to your podcast. That is, you have this religious, cultural practice, and it's still somewhat prevalent. It maybe has a protective effect. The science may be dubious.

I don't know, I'm going to try to look into it, looking at the scientific information as best as I can, but I really don't know, so if you do, love to hear your opinion, I hope you're getting some sleep in solidarity, brother, because I'm going to be there in a while, just keep up all your great work, and I hope everything's going well, if you have anything, I'd love to see you, I'd really love to hear it, alright, keep up the great work, Thomas, take care, bye.

0:04:10 Thomas: All right, so there you have it. First, a little note, just a shout out to all my trans friends and listeners. I'm going to be speaking about the gender assigned to my kids at birth, but of course, if they end up identifying as any gender or no gender, whatever, they will be loved and accepted, of course. But for ease of language, I'm just going to say, you know, I have a daughter, Phoebe, and a son, Arlo, and I'm gonna talk about them that way for sake of ease. So here we go. I'll see you in the So, yes, as you probably already figured out, the answer is I did not circumcise Arlo, but we did circumcised Phoebe, no, I'm just kidding, nobody, nobody ever asked that, I think that's a sign of the cultural practice, nobody has asked me if I circumcises Phoebe because that's Absurd.

0:04:57 Thomas: Now, it's not quite as absurd as circumcising a baby that has a penis, but I think the point is there. Anyway, I wanted to talk about this because, again, not to dwell on anyone's genitals, but, I think, it is interesting. I did change my mind about it. I'm looking back, and in October of 2014, I had an episode. I remembered, in the back of my mind this whole time, I remembered that I had somebody on who was anti-circumcision back in the old Atheistically Speaking days, and wow, what a trip down memory lane, 2014, coming up on five years since I did that because it was in October, man. If you go back and listen, the sound quality is terrible, by the way, and the editing is not good, I don't know what I was thinking, I think I was busier, I still had a job, so that's part of it.

0:05:43 Thomas: But anyway, I remember, I believe I was not entirely convinced to not circumcise, I think I was maybe leaning that way, but what I want to do is talk about, like, I kind of want to talk about the issue of male circumcision, because it is, I mean, it's an interesting issue we're talking about, it is a major decision that, you know, parents have to make every day when they have a child born with a penis, and, you You know, they ask you at the hospital, they, you know, and they expect you to have a decision on it. And I think it's, so it's an interesting issue in and of itself, but also the meta issue of, I believe I changed my mind on a major thing. You know? If you'd asked me 10 years ago, of course I would have, I would've said, of course I wouldn't have circumcised my son.

0:06:29 Thomas: Um, and to go from that to not having done it, I think is interesting. Thing. And I want to do my best to give you my accounting of what went into that. Now, of course, nobody has a perfect bird's eye view, like objective view of their own minds. I think that's nearly impossible. And it's probably impossible for anybody else to have an objective view of my mind for that matter. But I'm going to do mijn best.

Maybe I'll start with why I would have been hesitant or why, you know, especially 10 years ago, yeah, son if I had one. And it's a deeply emotional issue, you know, and I think I even knew that it was an emotional issue. When you are somebody who is circumcise, or just speaking for myself, but I think this is pretty common, especially with people I've talked to, other men I've talk to, but when when your penis is a certain way and you are about to have a son, it it almost feels kind of like a judgment on your own self. If, if, if you're going to make the decision that no, that, you know, my son's penis needs to be different than mine. It's on an emotional level. I think it can feel like, no, it ought to be the same.

You know, it's my kid. It is the same way that we you know, if it's genetically your kid, you Evolutionarily, you're probably looking for something that looks like you and your partner. I think in the same way, it feels like their penis ought to look like your penis. It just feels that way. It's almost a stupid thing to say out loud, but I think if I'm being honest, I think emotionally that is a big part of it.

0:08:08 Thomas: It's an interesting thing. One thing as a parent you don't realize or before you're a parent is just how much time you're going to spend on your kids' genitals. It's more than you would have thought. I mean, it's mainly their butt. You're mainly, as a parent, you're kind of an anus manager. Like that's really, oh, do they poop? Is there poop? Okay. Is there clean poop? It's mainly that. Like it's pretty much, especially as a dude, because I'm not breastfeeding. I'm not able to to feed Arlo right now. It's mainly ass management. That is just being frank. You know, you get some snuggles every now and then. It is nice, but they poop a lot and that is most of it. You are cleaning poop out of their genitals.

0:08:54 Thomas: That really does happen. I have spent a lot of time cleaning, uh, feces out of a vagina. That's, that's been a lot of my time lately and, you know, podcasting and other, other interests, but that's a, it's a major one. Uh, it'S up close and personal. You spend a lot OF time with it. It emotionally, it feels like somewhat Emotional level, that my son oughta look like me. And especially, it's kind of interesting, too, with something like a penis and a foreskin. When you don't have a foreskin, it is very weird to imagine. Like, I honestly cannot physically imagine. I have no idea what that would be like. You know, and vice versa, I am sure. But especially since the foreskin is like, from my perspective, an extra thing that I don't have. So I think it's very emotional. And then from there, I really do think that it's tradition.

0:09:43 Thomas: It's wanting your kid to look like you on this way and wanting to feel like, oh, my penis is the way penises should be kind of thing. Again, this is all fully acknowledging that this is an emotional thing. And this is, again, from the benefit of hindsight of having changed my mind, I believe your emotional brain looks for justifications. And it is my belief, having read up on the evidence, look, it's kind of grasping at straws, you know, that's, that'S what I ended up finding is that it, one, one argument that I find completely unconvincing is, you taking your son from like a 1.2% chance that they'll have a UTI, urinary tract infection as an infant to like a 0.2 or 3% chance, you know that that's nothing to me.

0:10:36 Thomas: Like that's that, that for me, that's something you might just have to deal with it. You know, your kid might get an earache. Your kid might get a, some sort of infection. Your kids might have a skin problem. Like there's things that your baby will have that just aren't that big of a deal. Like if if your kid happens to get a UTI, yes, obviously you have to deal with it and it's going to have some discomfort and it is not going to be fun and I'm sure they're going to be unhappy, but you'll give them some whatever, some drugs of some kind and it'll go away. And furthermore, taking you from a 1.3% chance to a 0.2% chance is not, in my mind, it is not statistically a justification for cutting off a part of their body. It's just not even close. So that's, for me, that's like nothing. Thing. I mean, there are others that are perhaps more convincing.

0:11:22 Thomas: Certainly if, if I lived in Africa, maybe if I live in a country or a place that has a very high rate of, uh, AIDS, then it might be, it looks like there is some level of reduction in AIDS transmission if you are circumcised versus uncircumcised, but that is just not something I am at all going to base a decision about my kid on. I mean, my decision is going to be, you know, instructing my child, both of them on proper use of condoms and protection and unprotected sex and all that. Like that's, that's going to be how we're going to do that. There's that, you know, I don't, we don't live. Fortunately, we don't live in a country that has a like major AIDS epidemic to where you would be literally concerned about cutting off a part of the penis to try to marginally help that transmission rate.

0:12:13 Thomas: My plan there is to do everything in my power to educate my children so that neither of them gets AIDS because AIDS is a very scary thing someday. But And that's not enough to make a decision. Specifically here and now, that is not enough of a justification, a minor difference in AIDS transmission. And I think there are arguably some other STD related transmission rate reductions. And I can believe that. I can even grant, like, okay, if you have less going on on the head of a penis to transmit, you know, to like be a place where bacteria or other things like STD, whatever it is, might be able to live and then be transmitted, yeah, I can buy that, that that that might be true.

0:12:59 Thomas: But here's the thing. The STD rates are actually lower in the UK than they are here. And in the U.K., virtually nobody is circumcised. It's very low circumcision rate. So, yeah, again, and the interesting thing is, especially when you talk about these AIDS and like other serious STD transmission rates that are very low, my plan A is going to be, how about I make sure my kid doesn't get a serious STD and do everything I can to make sure they have the education to not, you know, make that mistake, to try to avoid that at all costs. The answer isn't, you know, cutting off a part of the penis that to, to marginally reduce the rate. I just think the far better option is make sure you always use a condom in that situation.

0:13:48 Thomas: You know, unless you're in a, with a like monogamous partner who, you know is clean kind of thing. So, after looking at the alleged health benefits, it's my opinion, and again, I've come around on this, I used to think there were some health benefits and I believe that what was happening is emotionally I wanted a justification, I wanted, I was rationalizing what I emotionally wanted to be the case, which is I want reason to make my son's penis look like mine because I'm an ape, you know, like, because, and, you That's how we are. We are emotional beings. We are often irrational.

Think that when I read over the alleged health benefits, it's so thin that to me, it really feels like just justification after the fact. It's just trying to find a way to make a prehistoric, that's absurd, not prehistory, but to make a very old Biblical and other, you know, it's not just from the Bible there, but there are lots of sources of the practice of circumcision that, you know, are from long, long, long ago practices. They might not even be organized religion. I mean, it is everywhere. And in fact, among Muslims, it is very high. The circumcision rate is very high. And among, there is lots of different religious justifications. But that is just it. They are mainly traditional.

And it is a good sign when you read a lot of these medical medical articles about it, like from different associations and stuff like that, when under the listed reasons for circumcision, they're like, well, it's tradition. A lot of people just want to do it. You know, it'S religion.

0:15:24 Thomas: It's all that. When that's being discussed in a medical journal, it's like, all right, that's the justification. If it really were this great benefit and the alternative was like horrible, that'S what you would expect to see. You Know, I mean, And when you look at vaccination, you're not going to see anything but, well, also people, some people believe that religiously they should be vaccinated or whatever. Like, you are not going see that as a justification because there is an overwhelming medical necessity for it that outweighs everything else. I want to note that I'm obviously not the only decision-maker here. Lydia also was part of this, and now her attitude had been that she was... would... If it were just her decision, she would have been against circumcision, but what she told me was that she doesn't really get it and she's against it, but since she doesn' t have a penis, she didn't...

0:16:14 Thomas: She wanted me to be the main decision-maker on this because she just doesn't to have a penis and whether or not there's something about that experience that would inform this decision. So that's where she was. She wasn't like vigorously against it, but but she was a little bit against it, not vehemently so, but was kind of deferential and generally, especially since she knows that I research stuff and I think a lot about stuff, she was willing to kind of let me take the lead on it, and so that's where we were as a couple, and so I want to talk about what changed my mind eventually, it's a slow process, but here's what, you know, here's here's what didn't change my mind. People who yelled at me on Twitter or in emails about how it's the same as female genital mutilation.

0:17:00 Thomas: I'll be honest, like it's not. And that didn't change my brain. And if anything was kind of a turnoff, you know, and I, it's hard because I know there are people and I've heard from them. There are people who feel very passionate about this issue. And some of those people, and who knows if they had, there were problems with their own circumcision. I mean, there are complications. There can be complications. Could have been that. Maybe they had a bad experience. Maybe they were left with some sort of deformity. Maybe they were, you know, and I don't blame those people for being passionate about the issue. So I want to emphasize, I don'T mean to in any way belittle that. And I understand there are people people who come at me from time to time with a lot of energy on this issue.

0:17:47 Thomas: And I just will tell you that that's not what did it. That's not at all what changed my mind. I would just report as honestly as I can about what changed in my mind, here's what did more have more an effect on it. I love to claim that it was merely the philosophical argument of bodily autonomy versus the marginal health benefits. And that was a part of it. That's a major part of it. I don't want to downplay that.

But I have to say it reminiscent of what happened to me in college when I actually got to know gay people, because I'll remind if anybody's a new listener or anything, I was raised very conservatively in a Fox News household in a small town. So I was raised with a lot of homophobia and honestly, not so much for my parents. Like my parents aren't particularly homophobic. Certainly they are Fox News homophobics or typical conservative homophobia, and it's not good. And I do my best to to fight that. But they weren't like particularly out of the going out of their way to be, you know, I think they're in general okay with gay people like they're not they're not super homophobe people. But a lot of the small town conservative folk around me were very homophobic and a lot of the language rubbed off on me. And I think I certainly had internalized some homophobia from my upbringing and from that environment. And when I got to college and was hanging out at a party one night, theater. And and I remember I said, I, I apologize.

0:19:23 Thomas: I'll repeat what I said. Something negative happened or whatever. I have have no memory of what that was, but I expressed a negative sentiment and said, oh man, that's gay with. And I met eyes with a gay man who was my friend at that point. And, and I went through and just an existential amount of shame and embarrassment at myself and a realization about how horrible that is. You know, like it's, it's literally just being confronted with, oh, here's something I've never examined about my own language. And I'm going to say it in a negative way and literally right in front of a gay friend of mine. And, I swear to you, I literally said this. I said, I am so sorry. I am never going to say that again. I literally did.

0:20:09 Thomas: Like, it just was, it was something that I'm sure I already was down the road of not wanting to say, but it was still in my, like, knee-jerk language kind of thing, like where, you know, it takes some time to unlearn patterns like that, I think. And after that, sure enough, I never did again. I don't care what company I was in. Once you have that level of brute force experience where it's for me anyway, it was such a shameful thing. Like I felt so awful that I could possibly say something like that in front of that person. It really had a profound effect on me. Here's why I bring it up. Similarly to how that drastically and quickly changed my mind about gay people and about homophobia and about homophobic language. And I would hope that other people have similar experiences.

0:20:57 Thomas: Another reason why people who live in cities or have to actually interact with other people are going to be more liberal and in my opinion, more educated and more considerate than people who live in these tiny towns like I grew up in where they can, you know, these these these totally homogenous conservative towns. But anyway, if you ever want to have your mind changed on circumcision, like maybe you are like I was 10 years ago and we're like, yeah, there's some health benefits, but I'm going to just do it. Try talking about it in front of someone, say, British or, you know, or European, because I can't remember if this specifically happened to me, but it might have actually, or at least maybe I said something on the show and then a European listener emailed me.

0:21:46 Thomas: I don't totally remember. It's been a number of years. But if you say something like that, if you ever say something like, I'm circumcised and frankly, the foreskin is weird to me. It's kind of gross. It's weird. If you ever Say something like that and then have someone email and you'd be like, hey, what? I live in the UK and we're all pretty much like very low circumcision rate here. And my penis isn't gross. It's fine. And then you see an email like that and you're like, oh yeah, wow, that's stupid. Okay. Another example of being ignorant about how large portions of the world live and are totally fine. Like there are so many people who are uncircumcised and it's not a big deal whatsoever. And yes, it might feel weird.

0:22:32 Thomas: Like if you are somebody who who has a circumcised penis, it might seem weird. Like you don't know how that would work. And I admit, I don't really know how it would work, it seems weird to me. But it's just another way that people are different in a way that doesn't matter, you know? And certainly if you talk to someone whose intimate partner is uncircumcised and you realize that they're fine with it and it makes no difference to them, doesn't matter, that's another thing that might change your mind pretty quickly. So, sorry, if this, you know, I hope, this issue isn't too boring to people, but I, you, know, think it is a, I, think, it's an important decision if you're a parent and hopefully the process of changing my mind might be somewhat interesting to people but but I think it is that social process. You know, a lot of what we, I know we like to think of ourselves as perfectly rational and some of us are certainly more rational than others, but also a lot of what we believe is social.

0:23:26 Thomas: You know? It is a process and again, I have to imagine that I'm more rational then your average person. You Know? Certainly, I've always been a very logical guy. I've been a math minded guy. All the things that you would think would be stereotypically rational, that kind of thing. But there's just such power in being brought up one way, maybe, that could indoctrinate you forever, or going off to experience living among other people. You know, it's just so powerful being in a different social group. And I often talk about the thing that moved me to be more liberal than anything, and it's It's weird to say now, but was new atheism because every single new atheist, without exception, the new quote-unquote horsemen, the leaders, the four, you know, horsemen.

0:24:17 Thomas: They, without exception, back when they started writing about these things, declared that they were obviously Democrats and would obviously not support the religious right and would obviously support liberals. I know it sounds weird to stay now, given the direction that certain atheists have gone, of course, but like that was pretty powerful to me to be having that kind awakening moment in terms of atheism and seeing like, wow, the science really does tell you that evolution is the way everything went. So many of these questions have been answered by super smart people. And then to have a bunch of these super smart scientist-y people being like, yeah, and obviously we're all Democrats. Like, of course. Like we're all liberals. That's obviously what we are. Yeah, Yeah, that had a very powerful effect on me. And I think it's similar to these issues where knowing more European people, more people who don't circumcise.

0:25:11 Thomas: And in America, it's a very high rate. This will sound like a very bizarre podcast to Europeans. I'm sorry about that. There's a very high rate of circumcision in the United States, especially in certain regions. Now, it is actually quite a bit lower in California than I would have thought. I've seen discrepancies in the numbers, but it's, it could be as low as 20% from numbers I'm seeing, which would shock me because in high school gym class, you know, when we hit the showers, almost everybody was circumcised. So maybe it's again, a more sub regional thing. Like if you're more conservative areas and maybe in more liberal areas, maybe it would be different. That could be it. But that, that would, I wouldn't have been what I guessed. You know, I would have guessed it was anywhere from 50 to 80% in all of the United States because I think the average is in that range.

0:26:00 Thomas: So there you have it. And if I were to, again, sum up with what I think is my most honest appraisal of what changed my mind, it was the softening of my emotional attachment to it by realizing that it's something that isn't a big deal. You know, like tons of people all around the world are not circumcised. It's not a big detail, even though it feels it felt at the time it felt like a big deal to be making this decision that would leave my son looking way different in that area than I would, you know, feel something about that. It's an emotional thing, you know, it feels like, I know it should just be what I am. It should just be the same as me, you know, I'm an ape that looks like this. He should be a little ape that looks like this too.

0:26:47 Thomas: And so softening that and then combining with once that sort sort of social easing of that concern, I guess, would be looking at the arguments and seeing, okay, this is something, an irrevocable, unchangeable thing like this. You can't really undo it, barring some major medicine. You cannot really undo this procedure. It is violating their bodily autonomy in a serious way. You know, it is not enough. Bodily autonomy is a a part of it. But we violate our kids' bodily autonomy all the time. You know, we stick them with needles. We inject them with stuff that they don't get to decide on. They don't get to decided anything for a very long time. But it's a balance. You know, this is a more serious thing than like a vaccine in terms of the bodily autonomy part of the vaccine.

0:27:36 Thomas: Certainly injecting your kid with something without them being able to decide is violating their bodily autonomy, but it's a balance of what are the effects, what are dangers that you're trying to prevent, and what is the bodily cost.

0:27:54 Thomas: Barring some major vaccine scar, which I don't really think exists anymore that much, you're not really doing anything that they're going to notice when they're older when you vaccinate, other than the fact that, hey, they don't have the disease that you are trying to vaccinate them against. So a major health benefit when you talk about vaccines, major, major health benefits. I think vaccines are obviously, obviously the right thing to do. And so it's a balance. It's major health beneficence versus bodily autonomy. Of course, you're violating it a little bit, but not in a major way that is causing them some horrible horrible scars or anything like that versus circumcision violating bodily autonomy in a pretty major way.

0:28:39 Thomas: I also want to say another thing that maybe is worth bringing up here is as much as perhaps in the past, my speaking about circumcision would have been insensitive to people who weren't circumcised. And I apologize for that. Hearkening back to that email I might've gotten that was like, Hey, what are you talking about? Like, it's fine to be uncircumcised. You're totally right. Sorry. If my language was, was insensitive in that way. It can also go a little bit the other way, which is people will, wow. Foreskin splain to me, how, what I'm missing and how I fundamentally, my penis has been ruined because the foreskin is, it's like, all right, no, like it's, it'S fine. Like, IT'S totally fine. Most people who are are circumcised are totally fine. Like it doesn't, it's not a huge deal that way, but it is something that is unchanged.

0:29:30 Thomas: Like you can't go back on it and you are making a major decision about their anatomy that really doesn't have enough to back it up. You know, if it were on the level of vaccines, if it were true, like if somehow, like in some bizarre world, circumcision was like vaccination nation where, yes, it's going to provide herd immunity. It's going contribute to herd immunity is going to stop inoculate your kid from some very serious disease. That would be a different story.

And I think it actually would be worth doing because all told, the cost is not that high. You know, it is a little high, but it is not that high and you would balance it against a major health benefit. The health benefits are just so minuscule. They're almost nothing. They're are almost nothing and they. Really shouldn't even come into play. You know, my plan is for my kid to not get AIDS. My plan is for my kid to not to get a serious STD. And even if they did, by the way, even if they did my plan for them not transmitting it would be wear a condom. So it's almost nothing. It really is almost nothing in terms of the health benefit.

And to me, it really smacks of, okay, we all have this thing we want to emotionally keep doing to our babies and we need to find a way for the science to justify it. That's what it feels like to me. Okay, I hope that wasn't too TMI and long and rambly. I'm sure it was all of those things, but I hope you get something out of it. And I would go so far as to encourage you, especially the caller and anybody else, I encourage you to not circumcise your babies who have penises.

0:31:08 Thomas: It is a violation of their bodily autonomy and there's not a good enough reason to do it. There just isn't, you know, and if emotionally you are having a difficult time with that, I I totally, totally sympathize because I was there a number of years ago. And I would just encourage you to talk to somebody in the UK, you know, like talk to somebody for whom this is totally normal to be uncircumcised. And I think maybe it will shift your perspective. So that's what I would encourage. All right, well, time to move on to some other voicemail. That went very long, but I have a few more I can do here to squeeze in, starting with what is semi-related, but also very interesting and educational one from Susan here. Here.

0:31:54 Voicemail: I was listening to your latest video with people who are anti-vax and, you know, also white fragility. And you were talking about how it's important to have people from with communities speaking out and talking about, you know, how they can anti-vax ideas and, you know.

0:32:20 Voicemail: And it reminded me of an article on Wikipedia that I'm an editor on Wikipedia and I helped work on it. And I learned a lot from it was something like the Association of Southern Women for the Prevention of Lynching. And it was a group of white women who got together to stop lynching. The only people they would listen to were, you know, white women and who got together and

0:33:41 Thomas: Well, I hope the first segment didn't make you change your mind on that, you heard a little bit too much about my new kiddo, no, Susan, awesome message, thank you so much, there's a lot here, and I think it does relate, you know, once again, going back to what actually changes people's mind, and like, it's not really yelling at them on Twitter, like, Like, it just doesn't do it, unfortunately. I wish it did, because then we all would have a lot more that we could do every day. You know, we'd have a little bit more time to do it. We'd have more access to changing people's minds. But it just does not really seem to be what the evidence shows. You know? The evidence shows that it is people who are more in your social circle speaking to you in a non-condescending way. And it sucks, because I want to once again emphasize, there are two separate ways to There's the moral aspect and the practical aspect.

0:34:35 Thomas: And I want to, I think it's very important to me to emphasize that if you've been wronged, if you are somebody who's marginalized in our society, if you'd been the victim of something, if you were a victim of racism, sexism, anything like that, I am not, morally, you have every right to be outraged and do any amount of shouting on the internet. I don't, I promise you, I want to emphasize here, I'm not trying to condescendingly tone police you. I am not at all. And believe me, I've been there. Like, I'd been the person yelling on the internet, and I probably will continue to be. Like, let's face it, sometimes it feels good. And also, another thing I want emphasize, it is nice to reinforce and provide support to people who might need that.

0:35:24 Thomas: I mean, if you are somebody who's been the victim of something, it probably feels really good to see that there are people out there fighting with you and supporting you and all that kind. So there's, I'm not saying there's zero value to To being outraged on the internet, there's certainly, I'm not saying that, and I'm also saying morally, there are plenty of cases where you're absolutely, totally reasonable and in the right to be morally outraged about stuff, so I'm not one of those anti, oh, you're a moral outrage, has no value, not at all, but in terms of switching over from that to, okay, how can we just make change? Like what, what in this day and age, because I'm, I, you know, I get more and more worried that we're just going to get further and further apart.

0:36:14 Thomas: And we are, you Know, we, we are getting further, further apart in this country. And I worry what that looks like, uh, 20 years from now, you know, like I really do. And so just getting down to the, to the practical business of what is actually going to change people. Uh, it seems as though that it's things like, like, like Susan described. It's people from their own social group and standing speaking to them like that, unfortunately, tends to be what convinces people. And so the bright side of that is that that means, you know, there's something we can do. We can all work on our relatives and our friends. And if they are perhaps they don't believe in climate change, they you know. If they're a little bit racist, if they're you know they're like buying into the anti-immigrant sentiment.

0:37:02 Thomas: There's all these things we can try to chip away at and do our best to convince these people in a non-condescending way. And I'm speaking now mainly to my privileged brethren here. This is a police our own kind of thing. Like, it's also incumbent on us since, you know, if you're the member of a privileged group who is wreaking havoc on a lot of aspects of society, yeah, it kind of is on people with privilege to use it the right way. And that's a truly heroic story. Things like lynching in the South, well, and all over the country in the 1800s, all the way through depressingly recently, you you know, like the last lynching was within probably the lifetimes of many people listening to this show. Um, the last like documented, like lynching that took place.

0:37:50 Thomas: Um. And that's one of the most depressing things ever. Like it's the kind of history that I have a hard time emotionally dealing with, you know? Like when I, when I had to learn about that and when I've read about it, it's, it's disgusting. Like, and it's a kind of thing where side note, like, you you know, not, not related to the, to the voicemail per se, but when people talk about terrorism in this country and, and I'm talking about white conservatives here, when they, when they talk about that as a Brown people thing, terrorism as a Muslim thing in this country, and they don't acknowledge that the centuries of terrorism inflicted against black people in this county, they, that it's, it's abhorrent. It's awful. When you really learn about the history, it was terrorism.

0:38:39 Thomas: It was terrorism committed by white people to make black people really, really terrified. And it worked because it was terrifying, because it Was absolutely terrifying and it worked and it kept them away from, you know, the quote unquote, better communities like the, the, it kept him more ghettoized and it Kept them out of the more expensive places, the nicer places, quote unquote. Quote, you know, that terrorism was used to keep black people down and to keep them away from being able to, you don't be in like the right districts and the better sides of town and all that kind of thing. You know, like that's it is terror. There's no other word for it is white terrorism. And it long, long, predates any other kind of terrorism in this country.

0:39:27 Thomas: You know, and if you want to go all the way back to terrorism against Native Americans, I think you, you could call it that as well. So anyway, it's a very disturbing thing that I have a hard time dealing with emotionally, it makes me pretty depressed to think about, and the fact that this had to be done is depressing, but, you know, the bright side is that it sounds like there were some true moral heroes back in a time when apparently it was all too easy to be okay with horrible racist stuff, it is nice to know that there were a lot of people who were fighting against that and doing whatever they could to try to get people to not be awful, to be murderous and barbaric, you know, like it's small victories, I guess, you

0:40:10 Voicemail: Hey, Thomas, this is Laura. So, in the Christchurch podcast, you mentioned that you thought the, like, activists yelling at Chelsea Clinton were just, like, totally out of bounds and being completely unreasonable, and I understand your point of view that it might be the long time and place to have this discussion, but I'm just not so sure I agree with you, and the reason why is because I think that the whole media effort to brand Ilhan Omar as an anti-Semite was Islamophobic in nature, and I feel that people are mad because the bar of, like, what you can say about Muslims is so low, like, if you say, if you, like, people will do a close reading of your tweets and be like, oh, like, does the word hypnotized have the wrong connotation in association with Israel, but yet you can just straight up say, like, oh, Muslims are terrorists, and, like, nobody blinks an eye, so I think it's the fact that it was just this disproportionate focus on one of the first two Muslim women to be in Congress ever, so I think that's why people were mad, and maybe it was the wrong time and place, but I do understand where their anger is coming from.

0:41:18 Thomas: Hey, Laura, thanks so much for the call, I want to point out to listeners that that voicemail cut off, and then I know Laura called back, and the quality, something was wrong with the audio in the second voicemile, so I actually couldn't use it, I have no idea why that would be, but there's plenty here, thank you for the call. Okay, I don't know if I said something to suggest this, but I need to clarify, because my criticism of those two, I think, students that yelled at Chelsea Clinton had nothing to do with the time or place. So when you say, oh, that's not the time or place, like, I just want to emphasize that wasn't my criticism. I actually don't really particularly care about the time, or place of something like that. My criticism is that it was completely unreasonable. It was an unreasonable criticism and reaction to Chelsea Clinton.

0:42:05 Thomas: Now, I've talked a bit about this. I'm going to do it again here because there's a little bit to add, I think, which is that I I fully, fully recognize that a lot of the criticism of Ilhan Omar was unreasonable. I totally agree with that. Like it's a conservatives jumping, especially Meghan McCain. Meghan McCain drives me absolutely insane with her BS, you know, white tears crying over the anti-Semitism of IlHAN Omar on The View. Like that is nonsense. That is absolutely cynical political nonsense. And I totally disagree. Agree. But I, I have to like, I have to point out like what those two students set, like yelled at Chelsea Clinton for five minutes was this right here, you know, the massacre, the massacre that left, uh, you knows, a ton of people, what the final count was, but a lot of people dead.

0:43:00 Thomas: This right here is a result of a massacre stoked by people like you and the words that you put out into the world. Quote continuing. And I want you to to know and that, and I want you to feel that deep down inside, 49 people died because of the rhetoric you put out there. And I, again, I think that the kill count went up from 49, but it was 49 at the time. That's an insane thing to say. That is absolutely, totally unreasonable. The tweet, the only thing that there is regarding this, and I'll read it just so we're all on the the same page here. Somebody named Batya Angar Sargon, I don't know who that is, but she had tweeted at Ilhan Omar after Omar said it's all about the Benjamins.

0:43:48 Thomas: With dollar signs, you know, talking about the Israel lobby, and also there's a 2012 tweet, and I didn't realize that that tweet was that old, so that's, you know, take that for what it's worth, but Omar had said that Israel had hypnotized the world, which is also pretty reminiscent of some anti-Semitic tropes, so, that's what the tweets were, and then this person who I don't know, Bacia Ungar Sargon hyphenated last name, said, please learn how to talk about Jews in a non anti-Semitic way. Sincerely, American Jews. And then Chelsea had quote tweeted that and said, co-signed as an American. So this is the entirety of Chelsea Clinton's words here. This is the entirety of it.

0:44:33 Thomas: Co-signed as an American, we should expect all elected officials, regardless of party and all public figures to not traffic in anti-Semitism. That's it. To shout in Chelsea Clinton's face that that rhetoric is responsible for the 49 people killed by this racist, anti-Muslim, Islamophobic, whatever, madman. That is absurd. I mean, that is just manifestly absurd. It absolutely, I'm sorry, it just is. So it has nothing to do, It doesn't really have much to do with the yelling because like if they had been yelling this at Ben Shapiro, it would be 1000% justified, 100% because Ben Shapiro is quoted, you know, like in these manifestos is a major inspiration for these people.

0:45:23 Thomas: So if they want to say, you know, Ben Shapiro, your rhetoric, they want to yell at Ben Shapiro in a public place, I am all for that, if you actually deserve it, if to me, it's not about the time or place. It's not the yelling, but you have to be justified. If you yell at someone for something that makes no sense and is totally outrageous and is not a reasonable thing to blame them for, then yeah, that is, that is the wrong thing to do, and the, the fact that you yelled it at them does make it worse, you know, if I yell at you for something you're not at all to blame for, you're very reasonable to be, to be upset with me, versus if I come up to you and quietly ask, like, hey, I just want to clarify something, uh, is what you, she said, you know, then at least you, you can be more reasonable about it. You know, like that. That's what I mean to say.

0:46:08 Thomas: So if someone deserves it, I'm not against, like, yelling at them and calling them out in a public place. I really am not. Again, if this were Ben Shapiro, go for it. Absolutely. People should be yelling at that dude every day in every public place that he goes, because he's awful and he brings harm to real people.

0:46:28 Thomas: But this is just not that. It really isn't. And I am sensitive to the fact, and this is the best counter-argument. I think, Laura, you voiced it here and I've heard it from others and I get it. I get that most of the criticism of Omar is a bullshit, conservative, cynical ploy. I totally acknowledge that. And so then the argument goes, so therefore Chelsea dogpiled her and played into that. That. All right.

0:47:00 Thomas: I think it is reasonable for Chelsea, who is married to a Jewish man, to say we should expect elected officials to not traffic in anti-Semitism. And again, for Ilhan Omar, which she did to say, hey, she apologized. She apologized for the hypnotism tweet, which is, you know, that's a that's offensive thing to say. Just don't use that language. And that should be the end of the story. And That's How You Know Meghan McCain is Totally Full of Shit is she's still on about this. She's still harping about on these couple tweets when Omar has apologized and said, you know what? Yeah, my language was a little insensitive. Sorry, I'll criticize them using better language in the future. Totally. That end of story. That should be end of the story for any reasonable person, for any non-cynical, you-know, a-hole conservative who's just trying to make political points.

0:47:47 Thomas: And so Chelsea Clinton agreed and accepted. And I want to point out, I saw this. There's an interview Chelsea did. I'm going to play it here. It's very short, but here's how Chelsea Clinton is now talking about Ilhan Omar.

0:48:02 Clip: I actually think Congresswoman Omar demonstrated extraordinary leadership in listening to her constituents and others' advice and really said that she would continue to make points that she thought was important and yet not do it using language that she understood was harmful. Chelsea Clinton was on The View in nearly two months after she called out Representative Ilhan Omar for what she considered to be anti-Semitism. The former first daughter said the pair have since sat down for what Clinton called a lovely and productive conversation. I really appreciate her continuing to stand up for what she thinks is important and yet also being receptive to feedback. She's demonstrated leadership that I wish we had seen from more of our politicians, candidly, particularly at this moment. Clinton's tweet also resulted in a viral video confrontation with NYU students at a vigil for victims of the Christchurch mosque shooting, who blamed a rhetoric like hers for the attack.

0:48:54 Clip: If you could, though, have a conversation with those students right now today, what would you say? Well, I think, you know, Sunny, we have so much pain and anger in our country and in our world right now, and I think we do have a real responsibility to listen to each other.

0:49:12 Thomas: So, there you go, and like I said, they met afterward. Now, this, of course, this interview is after the confrontation, but I'm pretty sure Chelsea had already met with Ilhan Omar before that conflict and had talked with, like, that's reasonable. That's all reasonable. It was reasonable to say, hey, don't use this kind of language, and then accept the apology. That is all reasonable, and yelling it into Chelsea Clinton's face that she caused this massacre is a joke that's just not serious, that's, that's, you know, I get that they're angry, and yeah, I can respect that, but, like, that's taking out your anger on a completely unrelated person who's not the cause of the problem, and I just don't think that's sustainable, I don't think it's reasonable, and I don't think it's justified, so that's my opinion on it, and believe you me, I am very sensitive to the fact that 98% of the criticism of Omar is bullshit ploys.

0:50:11 Thomas: I get it. But also she used some curious language and apologized and that should, we should be able to, to do our best as liberals on the left here to not listen to Republicans anymore because they're full of crap. Like they've shown us they're completely full of it with their, their, you know, moral tirades against Obama and all that stuff. And then meanwhile, they, they support Trump. They don't care.

So we should be able to like set that aside for the nonsense that it is and say, okay, let's not use them as a standard because they're awful and they're, they're hypocrites and they'RE terrible. What do we think should be the way it goes? And to, to kind of talk amongst ourselves. And that's how I look at this.

Um, Okay, well, I'm out of time here, but I have some more great messages, so it looks like I can do a two-parter here, you guys have the best emails and voicemails to me, you really do, it makes the show so interesting, I thank you so much for listening, if you like this show, please share it, if, you can become a patron, that's also the best way to support it, patreon.com/seriouspod, that is the absolute best way, to make sure this show continues, but also, if we can't do that, no problem, please, share it out when you, when you think it's valuable, you know, share to people who, who might like it, and, uh, that's a good way to keep it going as well, so thank you for listening and I will see you next time.