SIO174: With Kristi Winters on Louis CK

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: And welcome to episode 174 of Serious Inquiries Only. So, here's what's going on on today's show. Recently, you may have seen this on Twitter, I tweeted about it, you know, different social media, that there is a Louis C.K. doing some more stand-up, and part of it leaked, and then the whole thing eventually leaked. The part that leaked was really unfunny Dennis Miller anti-trans comedy, essentially, and there was some other equally lazy, unfunny stereotype comedy there.

I can't stop thinking about this, you know, about, and again, the wider conversation that I always want to have about Me Too and about how we deal with it, how society deals with it. All this stuff. And there's also interesting components to this one for me as a previously huge Louis C.K. fan. And the fact that so many people seem to think that this was par for the course for Louis C.K. is one interesting thing, like disregarding the sexual harassment and exposing himself stuff, like this was just normal Louis C.K. comedy, which I don't think is true. Lots to think about. Anyway, I really wanted to do a kind of a commentary about it and just talk about it because I have so many thoughts.

But then I thought, you know, my friend Kristi Winters was also a big Louis C.K. fan. And I feel like we're very similar in how we think about it oftentimes. And maybe, maybe not, maybe we won't be, or we will. And either way, it's interesting to talk about. So she was kind enough to hop on with me. I want to point out, just at the, at off the bat here, this isn't an interview, so, like, don't, don't be disappointed if I'm like not really interviewing Kristi, this was a, you know, I, I have a lot of thoughts and I wanted a sounding board and I wanted to hear her thoughts back, you know, kind of thing, so that's what this is, um, we're both very, very happy with it in terms of what it allowed us to do and in helping our thinking and, and get our, our thoughts out there. We also move on to some other interesting, uh, territory.

She keeps track of, you know, of course, Carl Sargon and Sam Harris and Peterson, there's some news with them that kind of ties into this a little bit, so, uh, lots of interesting stuff. I just, uh, what I do want to say is if you are somebody who either was never a Louis C.K. fan, or you, you know, you might have been a fan to some degree, but he's dead to you now because of this, I want to say, I one million million percent respect that.

0:02:57 Thomas: And I have no problem. I'm not in any way trying to say you should do anything different. This is just, it's us processing because he was, honestly, his art was such a big part of our lives. And we go into why that is. And you might find it interesting, at least, or compelling, at least to hear why he mattered to us. And maybe Louis C.K. isn't the the one who matters to you, but maybe, you know, there are a lot of people going down, uh, because of me too. Well, we talk about that too. How, how much are they really going down? But there are a lot who you might have to change your thinking about because of me, too. So maybe it's not Louis for you. Maybe it's somebody else, but this, but a similar process will go on for you, so I think this is, this will hopefully be useful, um, because of that, even if you're not a fan of his or weren't a fan of his.

0:03:49 Thomas: That being said, feel free to check out those clips, I'll pop a link to the YouTube that has the whole set, I actually listened to the whole, I wasn't sure if I was going to, because, you know, who should have to, but it was very interesting psychologically to listen to, I'm kind of glad I did, just because I'm more informed, and I'll talk about that, but with that said, I know it was a bit of a preamble there, but I'm Let's hop on over to a conversation with the always-brilliant, always-insightful Kristi Winters. Cheers.

0:04:33 Thomas: Kristi Winters, welcome back to the show, oh, absolutely, it is my pleasure, I'm so glad you're here, thanks for taking the time, uh, this is, yeah, this a tough one, I know that we, we've kind of referenced Louis C.K. in the past, and when this latest recording came out, it's just, this one of those topics that I just, I can't help but think about and try to work my way through it, I was, I think, you know, I'll do some monologuing about it, and I thought, yeah what's better, you person to sound off with and maybe kind of check back and forth and see, see how we feel. Um, so I'm really glad you're here. I put myself through the, uh, through the pain of listening to the whole set that actually, um, I, I, I didn't, I didn't even know I was going to do that.

I just kind of at the last second, I was like, you know, I guess I'll see what else, you know, is there maybe if there's, there's anything that would explain or justify kind of the leaked bits, but just to reset slightly, I guess, um, there was a Louis C.K., you know, kind of leaked audio recording of a set he's working on now, and two, one, one and a half or two minutes leak that was really incredibly boring, offensive, anti-trans stuff, you know, like circa 2010 jokes about about identifying as a whatever, you know, it's just, and it's so tired and unfunny.

0:04:35 Kristi: It's so good to be on, thank you for the invite, it's always so nice to talk with you, aw, yeah,

0:06:02 Thomas: Like it's not even a creative right-wing offensive that shtick, you Know, like it's, it was really not what I would ever have expected from Louie before, but you know now he obviously he's in a different, different situation, but so that kind of leaked and it was, he's bashing. He can listen to recording if you want. Obviously, if people don't want to, they really shouldn't. But he's kind of bashing young people like, oh, young people are testifying in front of Congress. Why aren't they just drinking Jell-O shots and having sex with each other and doing whatever? You know, why are they identifying as whatever? That kind of like get off my lawn humor.

0:06:41 Thomas: And did you heard that clip, right? Just the short one?

0:06:41 Kristi: Ugh, I remember seeing people pass around the script of it and talking about whether the script was a good representation of the audio, but

0:06:52 Thomas: Oh, I see. What, oh yeah, that's right, at first it was a script, the script was 100% what it was in the clip, so there's no danger of, like, you know, misrepresenting it

0:06:59 Kristi: Okay, right, But I am interested in your impression, in your quotes on this, because I know that he was practicing, did you hear about the women who was escorted out of his show for heckling him? Oh,

0:07:11 Thomas: Yeah, I think that was a few months back, right, or a few weeks

0:07:15 Kristi: I thought it was, I thought was more recently when Okay, I saw it recently, um, so I know he's been working on this, um, you know, routine, and it doesn't sound like it's, it's very good, except for perhaps his hardcore white dude bro fans, so

0:07:16 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:07:29 Thomas: Well, it's such an interesting experience because, like I said, so I went back and listened the whole thing. And like, it's as hard as it is because, you know, to, to explain again, like I, I was a huge Louis CK fan. He was my favorite comedian of all time, actually. And I'm not going to pretend now, you know, a lot of people I'm seeing are like pretending he was always bad or something. I think it's cognitively easier for people to deal with it that way.

Or maybe he just never was their cup of tea and that's, that's fine. But, uh, he was my favourite for a long, a long, the longest time, until, you know, everything kind of broke. And so I went back and listened, and like, it was even harder because probably the first, like, 20 minutes is just funny Louis CK, not punching down humor, like it's just like, oh, this is actually funny Louis K. And it's like a weird experience to be like, what is this, you know, it's juste him doing his jokes and he has some jokes about he, you know, like how bad the year was for him and all that, and that kind of thing. And it's what I've noticed that I think is odd about Louis, with this particular thing, is like, as much as he, in the past, before all this, would make, he would be the punchline a lot, you know, he would make himself

0:08:46 Kristi: No.

0:08:46 Thomas: The shitty guy, like, I'm the punch line he would kind of put himself in the place of, like, I have these thoughts and they're bad, and all this kind of thing. When it comes to the, the, you know, abuse this, the stuff that he did, he doesn't do that. And he does, it's a weird, it's really kind of interesting to kind of think about that fact. He never, there's no self-aware, like, geez, I really did that. You know, there's no anything. It's just, he has a few jokes about how, like, I lost a bunch of money, you You know, and it's like, that's a weird, it just goes to the thing fundamentally where, and apologies, I have so many thoughts about this at once because it's like I tweeted about the two minutes that were leaked, that, that's, I think, is horrible and punching down and anti-trans and stupid and Dennis Miller boring comedy that I, you know, he was so bad, and Dennis Miller's so bad, that Dennis Miller started trending on Twitter because everyone was like, this is horrible dentist.

0:09:30 Kristi: No. No.

0:09:48 Kristi: Comparing him.

0:09:50 Thomas: Yeah, like literally literally. And you click on, you're like, Dennis Miller's trending. And it's like, everyone's saying Louis CK is now Dennis Miller, shitty conservative shtick. Um, and so that sucked. And I tweeted about it sucking and it's amazing. If you want to do a little experiment out there, everybody, if you, uh, if You haven't experienced this or maybe even better yet, if you want it, if ever want to some like social media experiments about what, what the dynamics like, maybe even pretend to be a woman or something and tweet about Louis C.K. But even me, a white dude tweeting about Louis K.K., and kind of mentioned that, oh, it's great.

It's not funny, Dennis Miller. I, wow, boy, did I find about 4,000 white dudes to be like, oh! You just triggered and offended. People I, you know, I haven't even interacted with before, but they're all, they're all out there in force, you now. Like, what do they do? Just patrol or something? Thing? Is there a, is there a white dude patrol all the time? Or is it just, that's the thing about being a white Dude is just, there's enough of you to where there's always somebody to cover the, the shitty white Dude talking points, you know, like that, I guess that's by definition when you're,

0:09:58 Kristi: Right.

0:10:48 Kristi: Check the posts Yeah.

0:11:01 Kristi: Yeah.

0:11:01 Thomas: When you kind of are the default view. But, uh, but yeah, no. And there, the things that people threw at me was like, well, be honest, you no, there is nothing he could ever say to make, make it better for you, so you just, you're not gonna like, no matter what, this was always his comedy, he's exactly this all the time forever, and now you just hate him. It's like none of that is true, and I think one of the laziest, most annoying takes that I see is that, oh, Louis was always offensive, you know, Louis was always offensive, and I just was wondering if you wanted to talk a little bit about, like, what's the difference between, like, there, you can use offensive words words in a joke that's not targeting a vulnerable group, and punching down, you know? Sure.

0:11:23 Kristi: Yeah.

0:11:46 Kristi: No, that's, that's really it, actually, I kind of want to unpack this a little bit more because I too, I mean, I was a huge Louis CK fan, I watched his sets repeatedly, I introduced my friends to his comedy, um, his story about, like, the black man being angry on a late night talk show, that when old people are, you know, crap or angry, like, they remember being segregated in bathrooms, so cut him a bit of slack. And, and I think, we, I actually haven't had a chance, has to talk about, and it sounds like you too, in a personal level, how disappointed and almost hurt we are in what he's done. And I think this is why it's hard, to you know, it stays in your mind, because for Kevin Spacey, I admired him, but, you know, I, I didn't really, he didn't make, you know, I didn't have, I didn't I wasn't a huge fan, where whereas Louis, if he had a new thing out, like, I was on top of it, like wait, how can I get my hands on it, and

0:11:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

0:12:30 Thomas: Agree, I sucks, yeah. Same. I thought his 28, uh, not 2018, uh, 20, whatever the last Netflix special was before the article came out, I thought, thought it was so brilliant, I was raving about it, and and I love I

0:12:38 Kristi: Yeah. That's, is that the one where he was talking about, like, well, maybe, but on the other hand, that wasn't about the people.

0:12:53 Thomas: Can't remember, but it was also, the like, the abortion bit that he did, which I think was just such an interesting and brilliant way of breaking down the disagreement, and it's that that happens in this country, and it was so funny.

And it ended up where he was like, the whole joke was like, abortion is either taking a shit or killing a child, like it's one of those two things, and then, in the end, he's like, I kind of think it's killing achild but I also think women should just be able to kill a child.

And it was like, well, it's kind of, in a way, like that, I mean, if you go take it through the philosophy of the problem, like the violinist and all that's like, that is ultimately philosophically the answer that I think is the right answer, but in a funny way that took him through laughs every step of the way.

It was just interesting, it was, and I, I think, frankly, I don't know if progressive is the right word, but I think a lot of his comedy in the past, sure, there's been plenty of just crass, like, shock humor that he's had, there's plenty of that, and it's honestly never been my favorite stuff of his, but also, in there, which is what made it so disappointing personally for, I think, both of us, also in his humor was a lot, it's so weird to say, but, but a lot, like, putting himself in other people's place, or getting through, playing a bad character sometimes, outlining other people's thinking, and, like, where they would be coming from and empathizing.

And it blows my mind and disappoints me that he could have that skill, which I very much think he had, but also have such a blind spot and not be able to apply it with himself.

0:14:37 Thomas: Self. And I think that is just an unfortunate thing about humans, you know, and I think it's all too real. And sorry, I meant to say this at the beginning too. I mean, there's plenty of people who just didn't like him or maybe even they liked him, but what he did is awful and they don't want to, and that's end of story for them. That's totally cool. I'm not at all. Yeah. And that's kind of how it is for me too, a little bit. It's just also, I'm very interested in this issue you socially and how our society is processing this, even if it's not people like you or I who might be pretty much done with them, unless you were to somehow make a miraculous turnabout and figure out how to properly recompense if that's possible. So yeah, yeah,

0:14:53 Kristi: Yeah.

0:15:21 Kristi: Honestly own it. And I think that for me, the disappointment came from the fact that one of the reasons he was a favorite comedian of mine was because I felt like he was actually being honest about some of his insecurities as a man. So, you know, he talks about, like, you know, taking a shower and his belly's so big now, you know, he's got to, like, make a shelf when he goes under and wash his belly, and stuff, and how he, you know, just feeling not good about himself or whatever, lazy, and there's a lot of sort of self-deprecating humor in a lot, men, male comedians or comedians are men, but Louis, was psychological, it was always about insecurities and giving voice to those insecurities, in sort of processing them through his comedy.

And I think, for me, looking at it as a woman, it made me feel like, oh, okay, you know what, he's thinking things like this too. It created a human connection across, even though we have differences in our sexual organs, I felt like I could relate to him on a human level. So when this stuff came out about him, it just was so contrary to

0:15:35 Thomas: Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. Right. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah,

0:16:23 Kristi: That self-reflective self-critique that we see him engage in every time he does stand up. So it just felt like, how could you how how could you miss this? Yes.

0:16:23 Thomas: Yes yes. I agree. And I to the again, all the white men in my thread who are talking about like this is always it's offensive. It's always been offensive. It's like, no, I mean, some of it sure is used offensive language and some of that, you know, and some people have had legitimate problems with some parts of his comedy forever. And that's that's fine. I don't know. I'm not defending every joke he's ever made. Like a lot of people are like, oh, it's pretty inappropriate to make that joke. But like some of my favorite Louis stuff is just him going to the doctor.

You know, it has nothing to do with like, oh, it's so offensive and gross. But it's like, no, it was so interesting. You know? Like he had one of his specials. He had that bit about like, yeah, I'm, I're 40 something now. And like, nobody helps a 40 year old guy across the road, you know, like I'm at that age where I'm too old to be like important or too, and then too young to really like, nobody feels pity for me, you known. And the doctor bit, I think was tied into that. And then it's like, yeah, the doctor's doctor says, I,

0:17:04 Kristi: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's

0:17:33 Thomas: You know, yeah.

0:17:33 Kristi: About his ankle, right, yeah.

0:17:34 Thomas: I need to ice my knee now or something. He's like. Okay. How long do I do that until it's better? No, that's forever. You just do that now. It's just stuff like that. Like it's that kind of humor to say, I just bring it up because it's, it's not the case that like, he was always this offensive shock jock, whatever. And that's why it was funny. And you're a hypocrite. If now you don't like that, his target was a trans people or whatever. It's like, no, that's not at all for me, anyway. What, what it was, yeah.

0:17:40 Kristi: Good what I found about myself is that I, I realized very recently, because I've been watching more stand-up comedy because I have Netflix, is that I prefer comedians who tell stories. I don't like the side, up punchline, set up punchline.

0:18:11 Thomas: Same. Here Yeah.

0:18:12 Kristi: I find it really boring. And a good story can be funny, but also just be a, a good story and he could do that.

0:18:12 Thomas: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And it's so, I think, yeah, and, and so I wanted to talk to you about what you thought of the, I guess the, the article, and, and kind of resetting back to 2017 a little, little bit, the article and how he dealt with it and how he, I mean, given if you were plopped down in 2017 with Louis C.K.'s past, you know, like, how would you try to deal with that? Or how could one? Or can you? Do you just quit life?

0:18:51 Kristi: Yeah.

0:18:51 Thomas: I don't know. What do you think?

0:18:52 Kristi: I mean, I still think that the gold standard is the Dan Harmon admission, where

0:18:58 Thomas: You know, what you recently talked about on this show, so I think we can probably have people just refer back a couple episodes, episodes, um, when you talked about that, but yeah, go, sorry, go ahead, yeah.

0:19:05 Kristi: And so in terms of owning what you did, and under, and I'm, what was important about the Dan Harmon discussion was, one, he owned what he did. He also owned the pain that he caused the person and the pain he caused people around him, because he was sort of like pursuing this thing and not being, not criticizing himself, not looking at himself, and then owning those failings and what he did wrong, and just saying, I'm, I'm so sorry, and I've learned so much from what I've done wrong that I will definitely not be doing it again. And his career has gone on. He's got like a contract with, uh, whatever the Cartoon Network or whatever's in the state. So I do think it's, it's definitely possible, but with Louis, he just, it felt initially, with the Me Too movement, I think it was mostly almost like PR companies were advising guys what to say without really understanding what the audience or what the public needed anymore. I know, yeah, so like Spacey, oh, and also, I'm gay. Come on, dude, seriously.

0:19:58 Thomas: Yeah I

0:20:09 Kristi: And then Louis C.K. is mostly talking about himself and other people, too, too. And I think in his head, he said his apology, and now he can just get on with it. And there's a disconnect, because part of his audience is saying, yeah, come back, Louis, we miss you. And society at large is like, isn't that the guy who took his dick out in front of women he had power over? And so he is stuck in that, because he's known in both ways now. And instead of owning it, I think in the Harman way, he's trying to move beyond it, and I'm not going to forget until he understands why it was a problem, and he hasn't demonstrated either through his comedy or public statements he really gets it yet.

0:20:08 Thomas: Yeah yeah I totally agree, and there's this really rough thing that happens where, gosh, I'm, it's almost like it's almost like a, like a childhood memory kind of thing, where, you know, you're, you're fighting with your sibling or something, and they, they, they do something that, that you think is horrible, and they won't apologize. And then finally they, they, you're like, oh, sorry, you know? And you're like, what? And then they, and then they're like Oh, I said, I'm sorry.

0:21:18 Thomas: Like doing that kind of thing. That's what people on Twitter are doing to me now. What can he do? Oh, he can't do anything that will make you happy. And it's like, he didn't do it. You Know? It's like it's, I totally agree with you that it It seems, especially in retrospect, his statement was just, in my opinion, not adequate, but like not horrible. You know, like when he finally wrote that letter and was like, you know, he kept saying, these women admired me. He probably, you know, people hated that. He probably should have said, I had influence and power over these women.

It would have been a less, you know, but like, it wasn't, I don't think it was that wrong of a thought to put on, to, to, to put there, that part of why he was able, like why the consent question was blurry and not right in this situation was the power dynamic, which in his mind, he put, you know, they had, they admired me, which is not the thing you probably want to write in that time.

But anyway, he also said, you know, at the end he said, okay, like, I understand now that it wasn't enough to just ask, like, hey, can I take my dick out? Like, yeah, I have, it doesn't work that way. And so there was some elements of like recognizing that there, and then

0:21:15 Kristi: Yeah yeah yeah right

0:22:29 Thomas: At the end he closes with, the oh, I've been talking all my life and I'm gonna stop talking and start listening. And you're like, okay, that's, that's okay, it wasn't horrible, but it was like, not quite, it just didn't, for me it didn't do enough, you know, and and I was like, all right, I'll see what it, maybe he's gonna do something else, maybe, I mean, and I had, high honestly I had higher hopes for what he might do, kind of along the lines of Dan Harmon. Like I thought, okay, this guy has been so sharp in the past in recognizing human qualities and recognizing, you know, like in taking on other points of view. I thought maybe he'll recognize, oh my God, I've colossally messed these things up, I've have colossally been.

0:22:36 Kristi: He has a set, a bit in his set where, um, the one, and we, does it in the round where he's talking about, why do women go on dates? It's so dangerous for them, why do they spend time with men they don't know, right. So he gets it, right, yes, he gets it, this is what's so disappointing, yeah.

0:23:17 Thomas: Oh God. I love that bit. Yeah. It's exactly, exactly. Yes. You're so right. And, and I, I actually had kind of high hopes like, okay, he's going to do something. It'll do better. The fuck knows? Maybe Maybe he's like, I don't know. I don't know. He'll start a scholarship for women who want to get into writing, uh, because he's ruined some women's careers. Maybe He'll try to see if there's any way he can with the individuals that the, pulled out his dick in front of, maybe he'll find a way to, I don't know, reconcile with each of them in a way that would, yeah, who knows? Maybe he'll do something that will allow us all to, if we wanted to, if we were willing to, which it's fine if you weren't, but if you were somebody who wanted to to maybe be like, all right, he gets what he did.

0:23:30 Kristi: Right and we want to forgive him, yeah, right,

0:24:00 Thomas: It was 15 years ago, at a time when he was going through divorce, and he's, you know, whatever, you might be able to move on. He just didn't. And that's what's so disappointing. He just wrote that letter, which now in retrospect, it makes it look even worse, like you said, it makes the letter look like, okay, someone came and advised him, like, here's what people probably want to hear, say some of this stuff and then he's just back

0:24:21 Kristi: And he said he was listening, what has he heard, yeah.

0:24:22 Thomas: Yeah yeah exactly, exactly, and that, and that's what's so rough, and then to go back to what I was saying about the, you know, the kind of the childhood argument point, like that's what happened. So, so now he hasn't at all made an adequate, in my opinion, even close to adequate apology. And so every, everything is tainted now. Like it's, it's like he's doing comedy or whatever, and he's, and, and we'll get to the, to the latest anti-trans stuff, which is another whole story, but it's all tainted.

0:24:49 Thomas: And it's not, it doesn't matter if he had some good jokes here and there that were inoffensive. It's like, he hasn'T done what he needs to do. And the, and that's when all the people are kind of gaslighting on Twitter with the, Oh, oh, well, he just couldn't, he could never do enough for you. Like you could just never do enough. And it's like, how low is the bar? You know?

0:24:49 Kristi: For him, yeah. Listen, yeah, and the thing is that he, when has he, and you pointed this out earlier, when is he in his comedy punched down before? Why now?

0:25:11 Thomas: Yeah. Not often, you know, not often. Maybe there's a, it might be a couple of times, you Know, like one of my friends was pointing out a, he had some jokes about like, oh, kids with peanut allergies could, youknow, they should say, I mean, there's certain things, but like, right.

0:25:19 Kristi: Okay, yes, you're right, but he was, he wasn't being serious about that, he was like he didn't he's like I've got a cousin with allergies I don't want them at all to die clearly, you know, he said that in the set, um, and yes, you know, you can make jokes about a lot of things, you know, in comedy, because it's kind of a safe space, but

0:25:34 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And especially when you've earned the trust of your audience, but now that you've completely lost the trust of your audiences, the different story.

0:25:47 Kristi: Yes and you sit there and you're like, you're gonna judge trans people when you get your dick out? Really? It's just, you know, he's not in a position to be punching down because he hasn't fully addressed his problems in the past. And to your point about these people, you know, what will be enough? I mean, I would just blast paste them that Dan Harmon said he needs to own it in this way. You can't just say, yeah, oops, I'm listening, goodbye, okay, here I'm back. No, you haven't demonstrated you actually understand what the problem was with your behavior. And maybe you get it, but you haven't explained that to us that you, you get it.

0:25:58 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:26:29 Thomas: I totally agree. And I think it's like, I don't know that he's demonstrated that he understands the cost to these women a lot of times, you know, like the fact that in addition to just the trauma they might have, like actual career loss, you know, does he understand that? Does he care about that? You know, this, this guy's a multi bajillionaire. Surely he has the resources to, to help people out if he wanted to, or, or try.

It's so, I think we really are on the, on the same page on this, which, which is interesting because with so many times where he's been able to, again, as I was saying, be the punchline and kind of recognize when his thoughts are stupid or not right or whatever, you know, and that's literally will be the joke of some of his bits is I have these thoughts are so dumb, you know, here's one of them kind of thing.

But like, I really do get the sense in just the way that you said earlier that he can't be vulnerable in this instance to, he can'T understand that he is the wrong person. I think fundamentally he, he doesn't, in my opinion, based on the comedy he's doing and how he's represented things and understood,

0:26:49 Kristi: And that is paramount. Yeah. And

0:27:44 Thomas: Because if it was anyone else, he would make a punchline out of them. You know what I mean? Like it would be, it, yeah, like it's, it he, and it's disappointing. It's frustrating.

0:27:51 Kristi: Yes. Oh, Harvey Weinstein. Are you kidding? Can you imagine? I Think what's also on that, on that one of the important things that Dan Harmon did was he didn't just apologize to the woman or his girlfriend that ended up breaking breaking up with him because he was obsessed with this woman. He apologized to the people he worked with. He apologised to the fans of the show when he got fired from it for screwing it up so bad.

0:28:11 Thomas: I, Yeah. Hmm. Right.

0:28:19 Kristi: And the fact is, okay, yes, first and foremost, Louis owes an apology to those women. But he also, he's ruined his own comedy for his fans. I can't watch him talk about how it's difficult to have a normal conversation with a woman and not want to wrap her hair around his penis and jerk off off to it now, like that joke is forever now put in the context of what he's done, and he's never apologized to us, and I think that's actually part of it, because this is, you know, like I said, when it comes to a fandom, there is a relationship between the artist and the fans, and he didn't just betray those women, of course he did, but for those of us like you and me who really believe that he got it and believe the image of himself, a guy who actively is involved in the life of his daughters, who loves his daughters, wants to be a father, wants to spend time with them, even though he's divorced, set up his life so he can be with his daughters and bring them to work and involve them in his life.

And we had that image of Louie. And our his jokes, for us are always contextualized in that context. So when he blew up that image, he ruined himself for us. And he disappointed us as as well. And he hasn't quite acknowledged, I don't think, how much of an emotional betrayal his actions were to people who admired him.

0:28:24 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally agree. Well put. You

0:29:40 Kristi: I want to forgive him. I

0:29:40 Thomas: Know, I want to I want yeah. And along the lines, the examples of what you're talking about, too, it's so hard because so much of his art is still so good to me, like the show Louis is legitimately one of my favorite shows of all time, and it's not even just comedy, it's actually less comedy than just interesting and kind of dark scenarios that make you think. There was one time, you know, this is, this is largely an atheist show, he had one, if you've never seen it, it's forever taken away from me as something I can be like, "watch this if you're an atheist," because it's so interesting and moving and funny and dark.

He had an episode where it was him as a child. So it was a child actor, you know, doing it. And it was two kids and they're going to, you know... Maybe this is part... I think it's partly autobiographical. Who knows how much creative license was taken. But he's going to...

His mom's making him go to like religious school because even though they're not religious, it's like, oh, she kind of thinks like, like, I guess this is a thing people do, you know, so like, I don't want to deprive you of this experience that some people have.

0:29:51 Kristi: Yeah.

0:30:47 Thomas: So they're in a religious, you Know, little, I Don't know what it would be Sunday school or maybe it's, it's some extra thing or whatever. And Louie, the kid is having a hard time with all this guilt. Like the, the, uh, know, the the nun is like really, uh hammering on this guilt and, and it's giving him guilt to the point where like this kid's having nightmares, you know, about it. And it is so, it's painful. And the end is just the funniest, weirdest ending because he's scared of like, every time you sin, you're hammering those nails into Jesus's hands and all this. And so the kid is so guilty. Kid Louie is so guilt.

He goes, breaks into the church at night and he takes down the Jesus statue that's hanging up there, like, he, the, g you know, the crucifix, he takes Jesus off the cross, and and he's like all alarmed. And in the end, the end of the of the thing, it's so brilliant, the end is like his mom's kind of talking to him and the janitor is having to hammer the nails back into Jesus's hands in the, like, this, you know, kind of overweight, smoking, smoking jitters,

0:31:01 Kristi: Yeah,

0:31:58 Thomas: Just like hammering these net crews, re-crucified just the image. It's one of my favorite pieces of art. And it is so disappointing that it like, it's just, it'S so hard. So, I mean, to kind of answer anyone's wondering, like, why is this even a big deal to you? Like, it'S hard. This is a big detail to me. You know, like it'S somebody that I really, really appreciate. I think this happened actually to me with Shermer as well, not, I'm sorry, not, not Shermer at all.

0:32:04 Kristi: Yes.

0:32:27 Thomas: Uh. Kraus, thank you. Uh, um, with kraus, when I tweeted about the, you know, I shared the article here, here's the, here's this, the stuff, everybody like, wow. Okay. Done with this guy kind of thing. And then there are people who legitimately think that that gives me some pleasure. There's some guy who's like, God, you're way too happy for that about that, Thomas. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? I, I had that guy on my show is one of my proudest moments. You know, I was like, I finally got to interview Lawrence Krauss. I'm so happy about it. It was so interesting. It's it's I'm not, this isn't, it doesn't make anybody happy. There's this image that like, oh, the left loves just eating those people alive. They just want to take everyone down. Not so actually, not even for for me, you know, like, I, I don't think that's really what goes on to be honest. It's, it's so frustrating.

0:32:26 Kristi: Kraus, Same.

0:32:48 Kristi: What?

0:33:17 Kristi: Yeah, I'm learning it, was, as we're going through this process, as a social scientist, you know, I'm thinking about this on a social level, and what it feels like, you and I and probably a lot of other people are experiencing, are sort of the collateral damage of Me Too. Because when you expose this ugliness, it forces everybody to look at it, and we're all going to be touched by it in different ways. Some indifferently, some people will pass on, but some, some of it will destroy your idea of somebody, and then what they do with it speaks to their character. But it is something that I've found, especially with Louis, less so with Krauss. I just sort of knew Krauss, and I hadn't heard the rumors because I'm not in the scene. But he handled it very badly, and it just got worse from there.

0:34:00 Kristi: But with Louis in particular, for me, he's like the heartbreak of the Me Too movement for the things that we've been talking about. And I don't know that on shows or in television, we're really talking about this side of it for people who admire artists who do these things, and how we're processing the betrayals we're feeling. And

0:33:42 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, oh yeah, it'S, it's the worst.

0:34:18 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's sort of like if you know Bernie Madoff gets taken down and people lose, a lot of people lose their life savings or something. It's like, yeah, I mean, he was a crook and it was a pyramid scheme, but like there might have, there may have been plenty of people who had no idea, maybe, or like they, you know, they were just kind of had the wool pulled over their eyes or they were tricked or whatever and, you know, they've lost a lot of money. It doesn't, it's not helpful to be like, "But he was a, he was a criminal, get over it." It's like, well, but I've lost my yeah, right?

0:34:50 Kristi: Also, there's some justice there. And when Louis experiences a public repudiation, because he's not being criminally charged, which he could be, and he probably would have gotten three to five years. And my feeling was I wanted him to go away for three to five years, just go and be in private, do stuff, do charitable work, whatever, focus on being a dad while his girls are probably going to be heading off to college, I'd imagine, in the next couple of years and really think and then come back and talk about it honestly and have the conversation and then move on.

0:35:08 Thomas: Yeah, it was when he started just doing surprise sets at the comedy store. We're like Really? After you were the one who pulled your dick out in front of people without consent, the way you're going to come out, come back is to surprise people by being like... That is so clueless. You know, if one, if it'd be one thing, if all he did was he recognized it, because I could, I was going to throw this to you and see what you think. Like there's part of me, it's not me. I'm, I don't think I can quite do this because it's too ruined for me, but... But there's part of me that's like if there are people out there who think Louis C.K. produces a product and I wasn't involved in his past and his sexual misdeeds and I would like to buy the product from Louis still, you know, like personally, I can't quite go there.

0:35:27 Kristi: Yeah, right.

0:36:14 Thomas: It's it's just too it's fundamentally too tough. But like I can at least see that argument. I could see, you know, like if it's any other product, you don't really care who makes who produces X thing that you buy. You don't care if the executive is an asshole most of the time. You know, it's like, OK, maybe there's a product he makes laughter as a product. I could see him saying, you know, realizing that and saying, OK I'm going to produce private stuff on my site if people want to come here and buy it, you know, and it's only people who know it's going to be me, you know? And if, and furthermore, if a heckler gets up there and starts yelling about me about pulling my dick out, I'm just going to take it. Cause I honestly, I deserve it. Like they can do that if they want. I'll just sit there.

0:36:56 Kristi: Yeah.

0:36:56 Thomas: Is that, you know, like I would, it would be a different situation. I think a little bit.

0:36:58 Kristi: But to have somebody escorted out for heckling you at a comedy club really and not, you know what? Because she said, "fucking get out, get out," you know, it's ridiculous. He didn't, though. That audience didn't pay to see, didn't know they were seeing his content. It's not like they went in willingly, he just showed up and he got a real reaction, and they escorted the woman who yelled "get your dick out" out of the club. It was ridiculous. Yeah.

0:37:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That is just unreal.

0:37:25 Thomas: Yeah. They escorted the person who said that, not the person who's actually done that in front of women before, that guy can stay. Oh, man. You know, and you said, it's funny, we're talking about physicists here and we were talking about careers being ruined. I just today, just today I drove by a big electronic sign saying that Neil deGrasse Tyson is going to be in town here in Sacramento putting on a big show in, yeah, it is like March or something. And it is, like, people, these careers are not ruined. Like, I mean, Louis C.K.

0:37:32 Kristi: Yeah.

0:38:00 Thomas: Might be one of the most, now he's going to be very maligned, he'll, he could still do probably, he has enough diehard fans that, you know, he'll have resources forever, you know. And it's not, and but, but even putting Louis aside, someone like Neil deGrasse Tyson had this whole expose about him and, like, he, there's almost no, no impact sometimes to some of these, you know, like there's, there's almost no appreciable, you know? He's good. Probably going to have Cosmos come out. Uh, we'll see. I could be wrong, but he'll have Cosmo season two come out, he's doing tours. Like there's like no consequences. Sometimes this idea that like, oh, me too, ruins lives, ruins men's lives. I, I don't see

0:38:00 Kristi: Unless People go and protest and mention what he did, and then they'll be demonized, you know, for silencing him or something, criticizing him in public. Oh, no, yeah, it is, I mean, it's gotten better, but it still has a long way to go. This is actually better than it was three years ago because we know now It's harder

0:38:51 Thomas: It. Yeah, yeah, Well, I, yeah, yeah. I agree, I least there's some level of caring, you know, like, and it, and you'll get an article probably in a major news source when, you know, 20 years ago it never would have seen the light of day or something. So there's progress, hmm.

0:39:07 Kristi: Yes.

0:39:18 Kristi: I know one of the other things you wanted to talk about was this idea of using, of Louis using language that made it look like people on the left didn't sincerely feel things. And I wasn't sure what you meant by that.

0:39:27 Thomas: Oh, that's right.

0:39:28 Kristi: So I was, no,

0:39:28 Thomas: Thank you for reminding me about that. So,

0:39:30 Kristi: That's all right. I was curious. So, I didn't want to miss it before the end of the show, for, so, yeah.

0:39:34 Thomas: Yeah, I, very, thank you so much, I'm, I'm again, I'm such a ball of feelings and thoughts on this that I kind of lost. That was an initial one I had. So yeah,

0:39:36 Kristi: Well, I felt like, here, I feel like more like I'm Lucy, you know, like the doctor's office is open and it, and I just, you know, I referred back, you, and I feel very much the same thing, so I didn't feel a need to intervene a lot because you were articulating things I felt, I just sort of augmented them with other things. So, yeah, no, I felt this was very cathartic for me too. Yeah.

0:39:52 Thomas: Yeah, so what I want to talk about with this is one thing that I believe you have probably faced as well, but I certainly have dealing with these kind of certain kind of cough, mostly white men online, is this idea. There are people on the alt-right and even just just the kind of the regular right,, to be honest, who don't believe that you can feel bad for other people. Like, I know that sounds shocking, but it's like legitimately true. Like they think whenever somebody like me or anybody, whenever somebody is like, wow, I cannot, can you believe that? Let's say, you know, a trans person was made to feel like their gender is not legitimate or something.

0:40:48 Thomas: How horrifying is that? And you, maybe you express like, or you see his situation or you retweet something or you tweet a video, whatever it is. And you're just expressing, wow, imagine that, put yourself in that person's place. Like here you are just wanting to identify as the gender that you are, you know, and you're not allowed to, or your made to feel less than or whatever. Can you imagine that kind of thing?

There's a category of people that legitimately, legitimately believe that that's all an act. Like, they think that you're not really feeling anything, you just, and it's so disappointing because it says so much about them and nothing about you, you know, it says that, that it's like they believe that liberals on the left see, and, and here's where it gets complicated, because sometimes it's true, like sometimes you might, when you find a fake male feminist who finds like, ooh, here's how you gain currency among feminists or people on the left.

You express such and such sentiment in such and such way, and then you find out that they're actually a total dirtbag, you know, kind of thing. That's the kind of think that they think is everybody. They think that anybody who would express feeling or express, you know, these certain what they think like a way too PC way of looking at the world, they're They're all faking it for these like progressive points or something, or like to get recognition. And what's so heartbreaking about this scenario is that when Louis starts doing the, like who, who at times it was very progressive. I mean, in certain ways, some ways he was actually quite conservative.

I think he's pretty, probably pretty middle of the road before all this, um, in his politics, but in some ways was very aggressive. And then they see, okay, now trans people are the butt of jokes. Now that he has nothing to lose, you know, now that his life is essentially over, in his words, like, my life's over, who cares?

0:41:57 Kristi: When

0:42:46 Thomas: But one of the jokes he has in his latest bit, his stand-up is, what are you going to take away my birthday? My life's over. It doesn't, there's nothing left to do. And right. And

0:42:56 Kristi: When, wipe, you wipe tears with your hundred dollar bills, Louis, I'm not, not going to feel sorry for you because you're held accountable for getting your dick out. I'm sorry that I just needed to express that emotion.

0:43:04 Thomas: Right, right. Sure. No, no, No problem. So, but, now it looks like, okay, see when these people who might express these PC or progressive points of view finally, you know, lose, lose enough and there's nothing to lose and they can speak their real true feelings. Turns out they hate trans people or something like that, you know, and it's so it's very frustrating because it's going to give fuel to that kind of fire and to that kind of way of thinking. Sargon is very much this. Carl thinks there's no way that you can actually have this compassion for other people. It's all he thinks it's all a show, you you know, to, sure, go, please. I'm very curious.

0:43:45 Kristi: I can tie all this together because it's fascinating

0:43:48 Thomas: Then you thought, really?

0:43:48 Kristi: You Say that, uh, recently I, so I'm trying to, I'm learning OBS on my YouTube channel and I'm practicing by doing a weekly Sunday stream where I talk about things. And the last show I did is called Harris, Rubin, and Peterson, you can't just wave away the N-word. And before that, though, in that show, I mentioned that I told you before, I'm watching a lot of stand-up right now. And I noticed this also, this exact argument from two different comedians who basically said, if I say something that offends you because I'm talking about you, then I've offended you.

But don't tell me you can be offended on behalf of other people. Two different comedians, this is the new Bill Maher, Bill Mahr, I bet, is going to start saying this You know, because Yeah, the idea here is I'm allowed to say offensive things, but you're not allowed to be offended and if you are, then you're in the wrong, even though I am being offensive, it makes no sense. So now they're saying, oh, well, if I'm targeting somebody else, if you're not in that group, your, your voice is silenced, you have no legitimacy. And what it fundamentally comes, comes down to is they're denying the existence of empathy, right

0:44:27 Thomas: Yeah. Oh yeah. If he hasn't already, huh? Yeah, right.

0:44:56 Kristi: And the way that this, yeah and the way this ties into Carl Benjamin is that David Rubin, Sam Harris, and Jordan Peterson are all quitting Patreon, or have quit Patreon in sort of solidarity with the way that Carl Benjamin was treated when Patreon learned because of complaints he had said white n-words multiple times, he actually said, um, because someone accused him of being an upper class twat, he said, um, have you ever thought maybe you're just acting like an n-word, mate, you act like white n-words. And when Patreon called him in, sort of into the office, to talk to him about this and work with

0:44:49 Thomas: Yeah. Right. So it's totally true. Same thing.

0:45:07 Thomas: Right? Oh, they actually talked to him in person.

0:45:35 Kristi: Him Yes. This was in the New York Times article, they have a uh

0:45:37 Thomas: Oh, wow. This made it to the New York fucking time.

0:45:40 Kristi: Yes Yes. Oh, oh, you should check my Twitter feed more often. I think we are in different time zones though

0:45:45 Thomas: Yeah. No, I do. I do I saw some of this, but I didn't I missed some of the detail.

0:45:48 Kristi: Yeah no that's okay so I'll fill you in, I'll figure it out. Yeah. They did an article about this because these people were leaving. They ended up going over to something called a bunch of people went over to subscribe guitar, which is no, no, it

0:45:50 Thomas: Sure Is this a Bari Weiss article? It's not. Yeah, it's usually Barry Weisse Right?

0:46:03 Kristi: Basically says Peterson and Rubin learned about the thing with Carl and talk to each other and realize they both had. Well, if you watch them, they actually have talked about this on YouTube. But anyway, the point of it is they my my bigger point was that Sam Harris was saying, I'm leaving Patreon because I don't think he was treated fairly. As if Patreon doesn't have a right to disassociate someone who is an unrepentant racist.

0:46:26 Kristi: And Peterson and Dave Rubin are doing the same thing. And what these three all say is that he said white n-words to people he claims are alt-right. Now, there's no evidence for this. And one person who was in the chat and the host of this show said there were liberalists. And he said, I didn't see anyone who was like, they weren't doing a bunch of Nazi stuff. So he said he didn't See it. And the person who said there were some people being offensive, but it wasn't all white supremacists in that chat. And so his defense was, I was saying white N-words to Nazis, and you can't be racist to Nazis. Ergo, I've done nothing wrong in saying the N-word. And to be technically accurate, the white N word has been hurled at Irish people historically as a slur. So he's actually doing a white slur against white people and then saying he was anyway, it makes no sense.

0:46:25 Thomas: Yeah Which is, by the way, still horribly offensive to black people, bytheway

0:47:18 Kristi: Yeah, because Because it's still a slur. It's still a racist slur

0:47:21 Thomas: It's like, oh no, it' ok, I wasn't using it with black people. Nah, it''s not ok, sorry Sorry.

0:47:21 Kristi: Yes He was talking to Arabs and he used sand n-word Oh, that's not That wouldn't be his reasoning

0:47:31 Thomas: Yeah. It's, it's, that's probably offensive to everybody. That's, that's, like, one of the most offensive terms possible. It doesn't make it less offensive.

0:47:39 Kristi: No matter who your target is, you're still using a racist Slur, and he wouldn't apologize for using it, so patriots were like

0:47:39 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, he has a policy of, and it's very Trump-esque, almost kind of before Trump. It is, there's, you don't apologize for anything ever.

0:47:50 Kristi: You're right Well, he did I actually took a Photoshop of this, because this isn't going to come back to haunt him. He tweeted out Dear black people, I'm sorry I used your special word against Nazis. I won't do it again because a bunch of white people got fucking irritated or something like that. That was his apology. Your special word.

0:48:11 Thomas: Yeah yeah. Is there nothing you he can say that will satisfy you. Yeah.

0:48:19 Kristi: And Peterson and Rubin and Harris are saying he's the victim.

0:48:21 Thomas: That's what blows my mind. Yeah, that's they're so they're going to disrupt their entire business model over this. Like that's what's and you know, I still for some reason I get Harris's newsletter, you know because I'm still still subscribe to that and I'll still check him out if he has a good guest. But but for the most part, it's kind kind of tough. But anyway, he, I saw this and I was like, this can't really be because of Sargon, right? Because he's, he's saying I'm going to leave Patreon.

0:48:28 Kristi: Yes. Yeah.

0:48:52 Thomas: It's the weirdest logic. The logic is I can't be beholden to anybody, you know, like, because it could go, if they could take away my funding, when I say something they don't like, that's not acceptable. So I'm deleting it. It's like, well, then you don't have the funding at all. I don't get, you Know, like if you can get get by without it. Why go to the trouble? You know what I mean? Then if you can get by without it, then you're not beholden to them is what I'm trying to say. You know what I mean? Like it's either.

0:49:09 Kristi: Yeah, my

0:49:21 Thomas: Yeah, go ahead. No, no, that's all I meant. It's just a, and It's such an overreaction to some, this isn't a, you know, a, a atheist in a Muslim country who was outed by Patreon and you know this isn't, this is a person who wants to use the N-word as an insult and you're that's who you're you're so up in arms about that you're quitting the platform you're making millions of dollars on, it's it's insane, yeah.

0:49:20 Kristi: Question. Oh, go ahead. Okay. Yeah yeah It's like, Sam, how bad do do you want to be able to say the N-word that you're willing to quit Patreon over it, like how much do you wanna say that word, I don't wanna say it doesn't occur to me

0:49:59 Thomas: Why why don't you just if that's what it's about, why don't you come out with it, why are weird, weird, yeah yeah

0:50:01 Kristi: Yeah just you know, now he's free, I guess you can drop it, Sam, cuz you're free, that was the only thing they were preventing you from being associated with their brand, you know, from doing, oh, oh, and you wanna hear the best part of this, the best of this is that actually Carl Benjamin came on to Kevin Logan's channel and I, and he said, "I could be on the show as well, so I joined the show." During that show, we asked him to confirm whether it was true that UKIP had barred him from saying the N-word in public after this kerfuffle, and he had agreed.

0:50:14 Thomas: Sure

0:50:42 Kristi: So he is actually censored by the UK Independence Party, but he won't, for a $12,000 a month check, work with Patreon and say he did something wrong. But he can't say it now anyway. Because you kept stops him from saying it, so he wasn't going to say it for patriotic

0:50:55 Thomas: Weird so weird, it really is this is all just that meme of the person putting the stick in their bike wheel and falling over, I mean that's all most of this is, so weird how do we get on this we got on this with there's a group of people who don't think that you can have empathy for other people.

0:51:10 Kristi: It's so dumb because the point of it was yes and Harrison, Rubin, and Peterson are all basically saying they can decide when it's okay for a white man to use a racist slur and people aren't allowed to object to that, and if you do you're the problem, or if you're white you don't have legitimacy because it doesn't affect you.

0:51:17 Thomas: Yeah.

0:51:32 Thomas: Yeah, really odd.

0:51:36 Kristi: Yeah, I

0:51:36 Thomas: And, you know, I don't know if we need to say this, but of course, there can be a part where this goes too far. You know, like, there's certainly a bad ally time where you could be too offended over something that somebody isn't that's right next to and you're not listening to them.

You're like, you get, certainly it could go too far, are and there are examples of bad allyship where you're not actually listening and you're trying to be like scoring points, and you know, like sure, but like this idea that no, there's no such thing as as being offended for anybody else or thinking something's offensive if it's not directly you, and you know, there's a simple reason why they're pulling that out, by the way, I think, I think it's just a tactical thing, like if you can divide, and you can say no, the only people who have any grounds to say they're offended are the literally the very um exact intersectional combination of people I'm insulting on stage currently, then you can't talk, like, yes, of course, tactically, that's smart for the comedian. You know, like then only only that person, you know, how many of that person are there going to be? There's going to Be a couple, maybe like you're that's a that's a very wily way to get away with saying whatever you want. If you just disqualify other people from enforcing any rules on conversation, like,

0:52:21 Kristi: Agree.

0:52:42 Kristi: Very.

0:52:58 Thomas: I think that's why they do it.

0:52:59 Kristi: You know what? I'm going to bet that that same argument was used against white allies in the civil rights movement. It doesn't effect you. Why do you care, Whitey? You know? And that's it. It's just an attempt to keep things status quo. Because if they have to change their content, you know, or think about it, and maybe reward it. That's work for them. They don't want to change.

0:53:04 Thomas: Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

0:53:25 Kristi: They want to just do what they do. And so it's our job to just accept this silently. No, that's not how free speech works.

0:53:30 Thomas: That's that's Totally right, and especially when it comes to bringing back to the anti-trans stuff that Louis CK was doing, and by the way, he had also just some boring, you know, Asian stereotype, black and Asian stereotype genital jokes in there too. And it's just like, there's... there's the the people who are saying, oh, why don't you just not listen to that part, don't get offended, and it is like, I want to say for Louis and for any other white male comedian, possibly, it is, sure, a bunch of people could decide not to get offended by your offensive and not funny joke, or you could just find other material.

Like, is that, which is harder, one person to find a different joke, that it's, that's not even funny, like, What he was saying, this is what's so weird, if anyone listens to the full audio, and it's a bizarre experience for me, I don't know what, how it is for other people, but if you listen to full audio, it's very bizarre seeing, or hearing rather, like 20-25 minutes of actual Louis CK stand-up where it's like, oh wow, is something that's really funny, and he's, he's working on his Louis C.K. level that he was on. And then, like halfway through, it's like he just quits.

It's like, he just decides, uh, fuck everything, I'm going to say offensive, stereotype based, not funny, get off my lawn comedy. And it's not even, it's not even polished. It's not even well, it's weird. And it's, it's just, how about don't? I mean, like, why? Ugh, it's weird.

0:54:17 Kristi: Right.

0:55:04 Kristi: Agreed. I mean, I think in some ways, he has to, he doesn't seem to be considering this a PR exercise. He seems to think about is sort of of just, you know, reinvigorating his career and the perception of this is really bad, this is it, I'm honestly, when I say I want to forgive him, I, he just hasn't given me the basis to justify it yet, and these kinds of, you know, shows where he just shows up and, or he does these things, it, it doesn't, I, if I were his PR advisor, I would say don't do that, because it looks like you haven't learned your lesson, you know.

0:55:10 Thomas: No, he´s done. Yeah.

0:55:22 Thomas: Right? Right. Yeah. I just think, I think you're right. You've hit it on the head. He just doesn't, he's not doing that. He doesn't care. He's not, he's, it's a weird and it's disappointing, but I think he must think there might be a certain part of him that's like, well, and, and here's the fact about Louis CK. He has always had those fans. You know, he's always had a bit of crossover with the, with the you know, with the idiots who think it's funny to be offended. Oh, he said these words that are offensive and that's awesome uh

0:55:37 Kristi: Yeah. Yeah.

0:55:53 Kristi: He was on Opus and Andy, wasn't he back in the day or whatever this called that's

0:56:02 Thomas: Opus and antho opie and opie and anthony yeah opening opie and anthoney I think yeah they're they're not yeah

0:56:07 Kristi: It, sorry. Yeah, no, no, that was the TV, that was, um, the racist TV show back, or a radio show back, from like the 1930s, I think, Amos and Andi or something, I think I was confusing it, I, knew it had like something like that, yeah. I don't watch these people, or listen, kind

0:56:17 Thomas: Oh I thought yeah yeah and and it's like he's always had a segment of his audience that is that and and he maybe I don't know if it's yeah I don't know if it's conscious or not, but like maybe he's gonna be like, well, here's what I can get away with, I can do this and not, and I, I think he's right now, my guess is that he thinks he doesn't or doesn't need to, or doesn't want to, or will never put in the work. And so he's just moving on. It's like, all right, well then to the people who are saying, when's it going to be enough? When are you going to move on Thomas from what he did? Well, he didn't ever did anything. He didn't, you know, he didn't try. So never would be the answer for me. So that's my final

0:56:24 Kristi: Of shit, it, lordy. Yeah.

0:56:56 Thomas: Word. Any, uh, any closing thoughts, Lots.

0:56:58 Kristi: I need some help, because I'm not in America, so I know of him, but I don't know his name, I think it's Michael, he's one of, he's the black, um, news reporter on the SNL with the white guy. Yes, Michael Che, thank you. I watched his stand-up the other night, it's New Year's, like, what are you gonna do on New Year's day, come on.

0:57:07 Thomas: Michael Che. Yeah. I don't think

0:57:15 Kristi: Yeah. Stand-ups, great for like New Year's Day eve before you have to go to work the next day, or New Year's Day night, anyway. Uh, I, so I knew of him, but I didn't kind of connect some of the controversies he's been involved in because of things he said, things he, – in his comedy, this is it, I was watching his comedy because I recognized him from SNL. And I also wanted, – I'm also trying to make an effort to, – I mean, not making an effort, I'm just seeking out people of color and women as comedians, because on Netflix it's actually really easy, and in commercial media it's not. And there's so much enjoyable comedy that be from a different perspective, so it's new and fresh, and so I've been really open to hearing from a lot of different comedians lately. But in his set he talks about learning and having dialogues and being open and being honest, and he talked about when he, he messed up, it sounds like, about a couple times, from the

0:57:15 Thomas: I've seen his standup special. Yeah, yeah.

0:58:04 Thomas: Mm-hmm.

0:58:04 Kristi: Things he said in his, in his stand-up, but one of the one I'm thinking of in particular is, he was asked in an interview how would he feel if his son was gay, and his response was, he said, I answered honestly, because the world's really homophobic and it's hard, I said I would be really sad because, and he went back and said, I realized now that how I said it was bad, and and I learned from that, and he going on with his routine, you know, whatever, how he worked that learning lesson into a joke. But I really admired that, because it felt, it is a monologue, but it felt more like a dialogue, because he's asking us to kind of call, fall back on stuff that we know about him, and he wants to talk about it with us in this way, and I was like, if Louis could do something like that, a stand-up about being outed as, you know, as a public masturbator. Wow, one brave, make that the title, and then have the whole show just

0:58:27 Thomas: Mm. Hmm. Right. Yeah yeah. You

0:58:58 Kristi: To be about the whole experience, yeah.

0:58:58 Thomas: Know, I really did think there was a chance he would do something like that. I really did. He it's it's in a weird way in a in a dark and weird way. This was an opportunity for him to have a cultural moment that almost nobody else could have had in the weirdest way, and he did not want to.

0:59:14 Kristi: Because he has the tools and talent for it, and it would be funny or

0:59:17 Thomas: Yes. Yeah. And he didn't. He didn't even try. It's very, very weird.

0:59:23 Kristi: Maybe he isn't ready yet. Maybe he's still learning, you know, we can, it's not over, he's not dead, so we still, he could still do things in the future, but maybe

0:59:25 Thomas: Yeah, it could be. Yeah? I don't know. If you listen to it, you're right, it's possible, but if you listen to it it just doesn't sound like he cares. Doesn't sound he cares enough. So, yeah.

0:59:40 Kristi: He'll start getting more feedback as he gets out there more, that isn't just cat

0:59:42 Thomas: Yeah maybe when when he notices all his fans are the cackling like, Oh, triggered. Uh, when he, maybe when he notices, Oh wait, this is not, why would I care about that? Yeah.

0:59:45 Kristi: Yeah. Who the hell are you people?

0:59:53 Thomas: They'll laugh at anything. If I just say identify as they laugh, that's not good, but I don't know. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on Christie. I really do appreciate it. Um, yeah, me

0:59:59 Kristi: Yep. This was very useful for me, like I said, it's been heartbreaking.

1:00:07 Thomas: Too. It was really really cathartic. Yeah. So I appreciate it. Hey, throw out where, of course, where people can always find you, um, YouTube, Twitter, all that stuff.

1:00:08 Kristi: Yeah. Yeah. I'm on Twitter at at K Wint IE, like K Winters, but K Winters. And my YouTube channel, if you search Kristi Winters channel, you'll come up on the channel itself. And like I said, recently I did a video about having a go at Sam Harris, Dave Rubin and Jordan Peterson. So if that sounds like something that might interest you, then pop on over.

1:00:37 Thomas: Absolutely. All right, everybody check it out. Thank you so much for coming on. I really do appreciate it

1:00:44 Kristi: Anytime.