SIO164: Listener Voicemail!

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 164, I'm your host, Thomas Smith, and gosh, that election is coming right up. Make sure you vote, make sure you tell other people to vote, make a pact with a friend. Here, I am making a pact, with you, I AM voting, on, uh, mail-in, but still, I will be voting, by Tuesday, and you should too, but that only counts for one of you, listening. That's our pact. I'm not going to tell you which one. So everybody else make a pact with somebody else and make sure you all vote. So I want a hundred percent voting from this listenership. Okay. That's all covered. And I realized it's the end of the month. And also it was a pretty good voicemail month. Um, thank you guys for calling in. I don't know what did it in particular. Maybe part of it was how bad some of the news was.

0:01:14 Thomas: It's only been like a month since Kavanaugh and all that. Hard to believe. But yeah, no. So I've got some great voicemail messages I want to play for you and talk a bit about really good ones. I might not have to do much talking because there's some good voicemails. So keep that coming. This is like my favorite thing to do. And as a reminder, I'm trying to do it once a month at the end of every month. So we're due. I still have a really, really good panel from QED that I cannot wait to share with you. I was going to do remembered that it was, uh, there was voicemail and it's good messages that I don't want to lose track of because after the election on Tuesday, there's going to be a lot more to talk about. And I think it'll, it'll make a lot of the voicemails no longer relevant.

0:02:00 Thomas: And I don't want that to happen. So got to do it. Um, but this mental health panel from the QED, I'm really proud to have been any small part of, and I was very, very small part. It was a four incredible, I'm sorry, three other incredible individuals who I think did a fantastic job, and I think you're really going to enjoy it. And I also have an interview that I think I've referenced, a really good interview too that I've been stuck with. So I'm excited to get you that soon, and it will be very soon. But for now, let's go to some really interesting voicemails this week.

0:02:32 Voicemail: Hey, Thomas, it's Nate from Vacaville, just finished listening to your last episode and got all worked up again about this Kavanaugh thing, and then with the Trump, how he got his money and everything, you know what those two stories have in common, it got me thinking, is they both totally destroy the myth of capitalist meritocracy, there is no meritocracy in capitalism, if you look at, okay, the obvious case is Donald Trump, he just inherited all this money and he made money off his money and he didn't add anything of value to society. And in fact, he has enough money to be dangerous enough to actually become president off of a false image that he's managed to build up by manipulating the media and having all this money and this myth of capitalist meritocracy that enables him to get to become president and wreck the whole country.

0:03:24 Voicemail: Then you go to someone like Kavanaugh who, yeah, I guess he, he went to school, he worked, worked, so in one sense he's not just making money off of money, but he was given everything on a silver platter for his whole entire life without any accountability. And then even someone like Fred Trump, like, who, yeah, he really contributed things, he really, he had some good ideas, but like the kind of person that succeeds in, um, a capitalist society on their own merits in a real way often tends to be ruthless and a criminal and and just the totally amoral, and that is the kind of thing that capitalism rewards, um, and like, you know, in a socialist society, in my socialist society, like we could say, hey Fred, yeah, we'll give you some extra money because that was a good idea you had about how to build the buildings faster, but yeah, no, maybe we're, you can't make money off off of discrimination or anything like that.

0:04:21 Voicemail: And here's the thing, we're not going to end capitalism in the next election cycle, but we need to talk about these myths. Just like we talk about patriarchy, just like we talked about racism, capitalism is something that we need to talk in the same way so that we can make a change in the long term and undermine this ideology that is so damaging. All right, thanks, Thomas.

0:04:43 Thomas: Hey, Nate, and I just wanna point out, I'm not gonna play it, but Nate called later on, again, to kinda clarify that he didn't mean there was no meritocracy in capitalism, he clarified, and so I'm gonna, you know, criticize that, because I would have said, yeah, I mean, there is some meritocracy, in capitalism. There's a decent amount, you know, there's quite a bit, but this idea that everybody who, if you reverse-engineer it and you say, from the other side, everybody who is wealthy earned it. Well, that's not even close to true. So it just depends on which direction you're looking at. I mean, if, if you're look at people who work really, really hard and happen to, I mean even then, I mean if you, you have to be lucky to be born in the right place, maybe born of a certain demographic group that's going to be discriminated against, that kind of thing.

0:05:34 Thomas: It takes a lot of luck, incredible amount of luck. And then, of course, if you draw in philosophy to it and atheism, and then you start to realize, like, it's not even really the fact that you're able to do hard work or the fact that you're intelligent or able to comprehend certain things or understand certain things, or have certain gifts, you didn't earn that either. So really nobody earned anything. So in a certain sense, there is no meritocracy in a radical sense. But anyway, I agree with the message. I think we should, it's probably smart to temper that message a bit, it just because of, you know, this is America and it's going to be a very tough sell to say that nobody deserves anything and whatever. You know, if you want to try to do that, I'm not going to stop you if you want to take that message. But I fully agree with your voicemail that we ought to start talking about.

0:06:24 Thomas: And I think a lot of people are talking about this. A lot of Democrats that I've seen, we oughta start talking about the fact that there's a lot less meritocracy than we think there is, or that then America tends to think there is.

And yeah, I think it's such an easy message because this freaking, I'll try to keep this episode clean, everybody, I guess, uh, for now, we'll see how it goes, this story, this New York Times story with Donald Trump, you know, having all this tax dodging and all the didn't earn any of his money and it was total fraud and a sham and wasn't really, uh, totally, uh, his stepfather, you know, I covered all that, his father kind of played into that scheme, it's amazing that that just disappeared.

And I don't even, I don't know that I can blame anybody for it. Like every week, it seems, and maybe not to exaggerate, maybe at least once a month, there is a blockbuster groundbreaking would have been a major scandal in any other administration, would have taken any other demonstration down. And there's one of those, realistically, like not even trying to you exaggerate? What do you think? Once a month? Like an administration ending tragedy, a scandal rather. Once a mouth, I think, with Trump. And I don't blame people or, you know, I don t really blame the media. Like, there s too much to cover. And the idea that this unbelievable but well researched and documented and, you now, what was it, a year or two put into the work of that New New York Times piece I talked about the other week

0:08:00 Thomas: And it's just gone, like, just, oh yeah, well that happened and nobody cares. And, you know what, hopefully the only thing I could say to give a bit of positivity on those lines is maybe in 2020 and 2019, when, when the, you know, when the campaign for president starts kicking in, a lot of the greatest hits I'm hoping will make it into campaign ads, I'm hope- but then again, there's the other side of it, which is people are saying, well, don't campaign on just being anti-Trump, you gotta have something to offer, and like, I guess, yeah, you know, it's true, I do wanna campaign on, like, healthcare, and I, you know, I hope Democrats are going to, to do that, but also, for me, in my book, by the way, it is enough to not be Trump, I will vote for, if it's just Trump and, you know, the other candidate is a, a pillow with a face drawn on it, I would gladly vote pillow with the face drawn, that's not even, not even close, so, it's absolutely enough to just not be Trump for me.

0:08:51 Thomas: Like, seriously, it just is. But I don't even think we have to have that debate because I don't know of any candidate there is that is running as just not Trump. I think almost everybody that I'm seeing is running on a message of health care, of the tax cuts for the rich being an awful idea and all that. So I know I spun out of control a little bit on that response to your voicemail, Nate, but suffice to say, I agree. I think Elizabeth Warren has hit some of these messages where it's like, you didn't earn this. A lot of these wealthy people, and you don't even have to get all that radical about it. Let's say you're a politician, and again, you're trying to appeal to a broad base of people. You can temper it a little bit, but just point to prominent examples like Donald Trump of people who didn't earn this.

0:09:39 Thomas: The estate tax, as Andrew always talks about on OA, or he hasn't been as much, but he used to, is like a no-brainer of a policy because it affects a tiny proportion of people and it's a huge benefit to everybody. And it should be a really easy campaign issue, but Republicans have been able to convince people under the poverty line, essentially, that somehow they need to vote for Donald Trump to be able to hand down 100% of his fortune to his stupid kids, who are even worse, it seems, when you look at Donald Trump Jr. his Twitter feed. It might even be worse than Trump. But anyway, that idea. So I totally agree with you. Great, great message. We need to talk about the fact that it isn't a meritocracy.

0:10:28 Thomas: There are all kinds of ways that money just begets money. Wealth begets wealth. And especially when you look at the wealth disparity going up and up and once we get another year or two's worth of numbers after this horrendous tax bill, it's going to be even worse. So thanks for the message. Totally agree. Thank you.

0:10:44 Voicemail: Hi, Thomas, this is Susan, and I'm really glad you did the episode where you talked about Kavanaugh and Christine Blasey Ford, and you were talking about Phoebe and about how to tell her all these difficult things, and, I think that you might want to look at how black parents talk to their kids about, that they have to deal with. I'm a white parent, but my kids are African-American, you know, guns. And, you Know, when they were really little, you made it very simple.

0:11:38 Voicemail: I told them, the older they get, because now they're 13 and 16, the more complicated it can be. And, You know, and we're able to talk about things. And my kids opted not to do that at school. And I'm glad that they chose that. And, And, You know to me it said, You Know, just keep it small, You You know, at the beginning, you know, make it part of your daily conversations, you know, in a small way. And also, you Know, talk to parents, like I said, of minorities, because they have to have the talk with their kids all the time. And well, not all the Time, but you know something they have To do and, and I think they might have some ways to help you have some anyway, thanks for the show. Keep awesome and keeping angry, our anger is gonna, we need it, we need to fight.

0:12:45 Thomas: Hey, Susan, thanks so much for the message, really interesting thoughts, and I think you're absolutely right in terms of how to talk to kids, I think there are definitely, there have been groups of people in American history who have had to, or rather, who don't have the luxury of not talking to their kids about stuff like that, and you're right, I mean, black people in this country, black kids, black parents, they don't have the luxury of just like, well, I'll just not bring up race with my kids. Like, no, they have to. And, uh, I don't think I'm in that situation. I don't by any means, I don't mean to say, uh that I'm in that situation, but I, I think you're right that there's lessons to be learned there. Uh, maybe, uh role modeling there. And for me, it's just, it's so frustrating.

0:13:30 Thomas: It's just this cognitive dissonance that I, just wish this weren't the world for her, you know? And it just seems to get worse and worse. Maybe by the time, you know, we have a few years yet before I have to have real conversations with Phoebe. You know, I've got a few hours to clean everything up. I'm not I'm hopeful that that's going to happen. But, you know, Susan has another fantastic voicemail. So actually, I'll leave that one there because I think it was very good. And let's get to this other one, which is also incredibly good. Here you go.

0:13:56 Voicemail: Hi Thomas, this is Susan, I called earlier and left a message about something different, but I also wanted, you know, after thinking about it, I wanted to share something else, when Me Too happened, I thought about things that had happened to me, and I've counted myself very lucky in that I was like, oh, nothing bad has happened to to me. I've never been raped. I have never been sexually assaulted. I, you know, believe when they tell these stories, I have friends that's happened to it. Then I thought some more and I realized things that happened to me, you know, it's like you said, um, when you were talking to from secular soup, how I was talking about her, your voice, uh, male, how, you know, It just becomes part of your normal life.

0:14:50 Voicemail: So you don't even think about it. So So the more I thought, the more I remembered how things have happened to me. One time, I went for a walk at the park, and all of a sudden, some dude hit me, and I had to run away from him. And, you know, I was in a part of the park where I was by myself. I was alone. He could have done anything to me, but I was and it wasn't until I ran into someone's backyard that was out there until he left.

I mean, and this is something that was really traumatic, and it It didn't even pop up on my radar. I said to myself, I've never been sexually assaulted. Well, yes, I have, actually. I had that happen to me when I was 19, and it was scary. And then I thought about it some more, and I remember how when I was 15, it was just totally normal in high school for seeing the girls and stuff like that. Like, oh, ha, ha. You know, and you just kind of go, ha-ha-ha. Ha ha ha, you want to be accepted, you know, and more prevalent within,

0:16:05 Voicemail: Like, a project like I was in theater, and, you know, if that's what, then you just kind of go along with it. I guess, you know, it's just, it is really sad that so many of us don't even, they don't even pop up on our radar, you know, but, but yeah, I think every single woman, there's no way, even if you think that you've gone through life unscathed like I thought I had, there is something in our past that's devalued.

0:16:42 Thomas: Uh, got cut off there, uh, wow, thanks, Susan, so many thoughts, so much good stuff there, and I mean good in that I'm so glad you are voicing it on the show, but, uh... not good, in a, in the real sense, yeah, wow! And I, I also, I left that car in there, cuz A, it was, it would've been a messy edit, but also I just thought it was so appropriate that while you're talking about stuff that involves men being assholes and, and basically being the worst, what is 99.9% likely to have been some a-hole dude blares by in a super loud car. I hate that so much, uh, I just thought it was perfect, uh, kind, kinda coincidence there, and, yeah, that was absolutely, I, I'm so glad you said all that, and I just wanna also echo that that's the same thing my wife said around this time, like, gosh, it's been, what, a year now?

0:17:31 Thomas: Uh, when did Me Too start? I'm losing my mind lately. It's been a while. Uh, that's one thing she said, exact same thing, where it's like, oh, nothing really happened, you know, uh, and then it's, like oh, wait, all these things have happened to me that I didn't even remember, because it just is life, and you kinda move on, you deal with it. And you mentioned being chased by a man. I just saw, I think it was yesterday, Rebecca Watson. A lot of you may know Rebecca Watson used to be with Skeptics Guide to the Universe. She's also started Skepchick. Yeah, follow her on Twitter. I think she's great. And she just talked about how she, like, she literally just tweeted the other day about, wow, I was just chased by a guy on a run. I think it was.

0:18:16 Thomas: And, or she was walking home or something. And she was talking just in this way too. Like, oh, I didn't, I don't really, I wasn't that worried really because it kind of, you know, it's just the way things are. And she warned somebody, another woman who I think was on a jog and warned her to say, you know, this crap happens all the time. Men never have to think about it. Like almost never have to think about that kind of thing. Just being out, men can like go on a jog and pretty much expect to be fine. Yeah, so it's that's, that's one thing I'm, again, always happy to do on my show is echo and signal boost any stories like that, because I just think men who are listening and men and hopefully people have learned who listen to this show, but but still, it's a good idea.

0:19:03 Thomas: Any men listening, anyone who doesn't believe, anyone of any gender or no gender who doesn't believe this is a problem, might just not have the adequate background knowledge and experience to form the proper beliefs around this, you know, if it is something that you've never had to think about or heard about, then, you know, I can't really blame you for thinking it doesn't happen a lot, but the truth is, if you talk to and listen to mainly women who are mainly the victims of this kind of thing, not always, but mainly, then you start to get a whole different picture about it. Before, I'll mention it again, I just finished the book, The Power, which I found really interesting. Did I mention that on this show? Can't remember. Either way, highly recommend it, because just very briefly, it's kind of a science fiction-y thing, or at least a fiction thing, that imagines a world in which women had the power to basically hurt men in a way.

0:19:59 Thomas: And it's a really really interesting narrative way of kind of snapping you into a different paradigm, especially if you're a man and thinking like, what would things be like if women were the ones with the power physically or electronically, as it were, in the power, science fictionally, to have the power over men rather than vice versa. Men always have this, or for the most part, have this implied Clyde. Power, physical power over women, even if they never use it, it's always there, and there's so much in that book that I found interesting, and that it's, it really does just make you say, like, oh, yeah, that, that really is, you know, things really would be different if, if maybe some, some physical tendencies in our evolution were a little different.

0:20:53 Thomas: I think it's a great book, I thoroughly enjoyed it, so I recommend that, too, to get maybe more perspective, again, if you're somebody who doesn't believe what I'm saying or doesn't, you know, doesn't find that to be plausible, I don't know, it's just another one of those things you read, and it makes you kind of have those realizations, like how much of our cultural, uh, you know, and, and gender norm evolution kind of thing, um, all right, is based on this implied physical threat. So, really interesting book, great message, thank you so much, Susan.

0:21:23 Voicemail: Hi, Thomas. My name is Debbie Kennedy, and I live in Oregon. I've been listening to your show on Kavanaugh and ensuing fallout. I had just rewatched I Am Evidence on HBO, which is a film about the rape kits, which had not been processed across the country, and it just infuriated me. So I went into a store that I frequented for like 25 years. I know all the clerks in there. They know me, very friendly. And I just walked up to this one woman, and I just started going off about rape. My stepfather sexually abused me as a kid, and then at the age of 47, I was date raped. And it just infuriates me. And she just looked at me and said, oh, I was raped in the ninth grade, and I've never told anyone.

0:22:12 Voicemail: You know, she's close to my age. I'm 66. I was date raped at age 47. It is so common and it is so acceptable out there. And when you watch I Am Evidence on HBO, I need to get some women who have been raped and abused. I need I need to have them in my living room to watch this show because I need to blow off some steam, and it's really hard to get them to come over to my house and watch it. I guess probably because I'm so impassioned about this. But, yeah, we've got to, you know, how I felt about Anita Hill when that happened was, you know, I had been sexually harassed in Wichita organizing the machinist union for Boeing aircraft and Air Force One, they build Air Force One there.

0:23:04 Voicemail: And I just got harassed to death. I mean, when you tell somebody no, then they just want to retaliate. And this one guy was just vicious in his retaliation. So when Anita Hill happened, I was so happy to see her do that. And I was angry. But what happened here with Kavanaugh just makes me feel really sick and really sad, because I don't know anything other than Me Too and talking about it that we're going to do any, that we can do anything to stop this. And anyway, thank you very much, and I hope you have a great week, and I'll probably call in later. Bye.

0:23:42 Thomas: Hey, Debbie, another really great, powerful voicemail there, jeez, you know, and nothing to add because that's well said, and I also thank you so much for the recommendation, I didn't know about I Am Evidence, I did know about the rape kit thing, the fact that hundreds of thousands of these rape kits are just not even tested, I think callers have said that before, I've heard it before, but good reminder and great recommendation, I want to check out I Am Evidence on HBO. I am absolutely going to watch that. So, Lydia, if you're listening, let's watch that very soon. And, you know, your voicemail also reminded me of a couple books I've read that I've probably already mentioned, but that feeling that you're having, that kind of, I don't know if you would call it rage, but, that, I guess, restlessness, that intensity, that maybe outrage, if that's appropriate to call it, is absolutely justified, I don't blame you at all.

0:24:38 Thomas: And I think there's some great books, you Rebecca Traister's book, Soraya Chemaly's book. I just read both of those. I think there's another one that along the same lines, I imagine it's no coincidence that some amazing female authors are writing books on female rage right about now because it's, well, I think you know why. I mean, it's a time when there's a lot of rage and it's justified. And I'm glad that there's some some recognition that this anger doesn't disqualify you anymore. I hope, you know, and, and yes, it's true that societally we don't take women's rage as seriously. Uh, and again, it's interesting. I think it does go back to the book, the power that I was talking about.

0:25:25 Thomas: Sorry, this is a book fest. I'm just recommending all this, the scholastic book fair here, but, but really I think even, man, now that I think about it, I think Rebecca Traister's book or Soraya Chemaly's book. I read them all very quickly, but I think one of them even mentioned the power, the fact that when a white man is angry, everybody listens up, you know, like that's because of historically it carries with it a lot of implications, you Know, like, like consequences happen when a White man is Angry historically. And when a woman is angry historically, it doesn't have to be taken seriously. You know, back, back in the day, it was, oh, hysterical. She's being hysterical, and I say back in the day, that's kind of, Trump has embodied that now, you know, that still very much exists now, but, but certainly a hundred years ago, but you know back through history, it's even more prevalent, which is, can be kind of dismissed as, oh geez, someone being hysterical!

0:26:22 Thomas: Look at all these hysterical women wanting the right to vote! That kind of thing, and these books, I think, were a really great outlet for that, and I recommend them, and I just want to say that I totally understand your anger, and I can't wait to watch that documentary, although I imagine it is going to be one of those things that I will just be mad the whole time as well, but that's okay, if I were near you, I would watch it with you, and we could be mad together, so, sorry, we can't do that, but I may hope maybe you find some friends to do that with, and, most importantly, again, we all can be mad right into the voting box and cast a ballot that doesn't include any Republicans, because getting Republicans out of office is mandatory at this moment in our history. So, thanks again for the great call, really sorry to hear about the awful things that have happened throughout the past, and don't at all blame you for that anger.

0:27:14 Voicemail: Hey, Thomas, I was just calling because I just listened to your Elizabeth Warren episode, I'm not Native American or anything like that, but I thought it was interesting how Elizabeth Warren's story was essentially how her parents couldn't get, or almost couldn't, get married because her mother was Cherokee, and I was like, well, that's kind of, like, the interesting story to me, like I don't understand why people have to make it into this weird, weird racist situation where it's like, oh, well, she's not Cherokee. Well, that's not the story. The story really is a story of how hard it is for mixed relationships, like back when her mother was trying to.

0:28:00 Voicemail: And, like, to me, that is what Elizabeth Warren was, like trying to say and not try to say. Never mind. I was so frustrated because my parents are mixed race, and they, even in 2016, have these same kind of bigotries against them because my mother is Puerto Rican and my father is, like, white American. And it's just to hear Elizabeth Warren's story and then to, like, see how they blow it out of proportion where it's a story about her family, why people have to automatically assume, no, she's not what she says she is, is just downright despicable to me. And it's like, I know that we're getting into the, like, she's riling up to become hopefully president.

0:28:49 Voicemail: Let's just cross our fingers and pray to the invisible God that's not there. But, like, it's so disheartening to hear this kind of bigotry about somebody when their story should be a heartfelt one. And I can't say what she could have possibly done with how people, like, what she wrote down to say that she was Cherokee or not. But in the 80s, I'm pretty sure, just even if she did do the worst thing possible and say that he was to try to get a leg up, I mean, she's a woman in the 80s trying to do the best that she can and get into positions that weren't, like – weren't traditionally available to women. So it's like, yeah, she could have done the worst thing possible, but to me, it's like, of all things, we're going to, like, pretend that her story that her mother told her, a heartbreaking story about what mixed marriage is like and how that she can't claim that, just get a little bit of a leg up in a world that is so discriminatory against women.

0:29:57 Thomas: Hey, looks like it got cut off there, happening a little bit here and there, um, yeah, I, ah, I don't know what I want to say about that hypothetical, like you say, even if she did do what people said she did, um, I don't know how, I dunno if I can really, you know, have a good opinion on, like, how justified it is if you were a woman and felt discriminated against to kind of use, in some ways, kind of throw another group under the bus to counteract discrimination, it's, it's, I don't know, it doesn't, it definitely doesn't seem right to me, but it, but I also am sensitive to the fact that, like, I don't feel like I should judge someone, you know, like a woman in the 80s or 90s for doing that, but I, I'm not sure, but, unfortunately, you know, let, let me know if, if anyone has an opinion on that, but, fortunately, that's entirely hypothetical because it's just not what happened, um, and, and I call her, it sounds like you, or know that, too, um, but, but, but really, like, I don't think there's any need to to even go there because she didn't do that.

She didn't try to gain materially or in her job or anything by doing this. So I just don't even. Yeah, I don't even find the need to, to entertain that. But I think I have another voicemail here that's a little more on the other side. So let me play that one and then I can kind of respond to both of them. Maybe.

0:31:25 Voicemail: Hey, Thomas. So, my name is Mo. I wasn't sure whether to email or leave a voicemail, because I wanted to say two things. One is more of a question. First thing I wanted say was about the whole Elizabeth Warren situation. I don't disagree with what you were saying when I listened to your podcast. I agreed, like, a lot with what what you had said, and I didn't understand why everyone else was so upset about it. But then later on, I read two articles, and then there was another podcast I had listened to where Native people were actually talking about the situation, and it was more detailed. And I think that really helped me see where they were coming from. So if you want to take a look at that, I think it would be helpful.

0:32:13 Voicemail: The first article was What Elizabeth Warren Still Doesn't Get by Briahna Gray on The Intercept. And the second one is also on the intercept, and it's Native American sovereignty is under attack. Here's how Elizabeth Warren's DNA test hurt our struggle by Nick Estes. I think both were really helpful in trying to figure out why Natives were actually pretty upset with the whole situation.

0:32:42 Voicemail: Also, in the Thick podcast, the ITT extra, the enemy of the people, speaks out, was also helpful. I think what I've gotten out of those is that if she had just acknowledged what Harvard did by featuring her as a Native American was wrong, it would have been much more helpful than to just try and validate her own story. I think more people were just upset at the usage of her as minority, or like a Native, Native American, when she wasn't, and it being used to justify not including those people in, like, the faculty. Does that make sense? The second thing I wanted to say was I was wondering if there was a way to just support you as a creator instead of individual podcasts.

0:33:32 Voicemail: I'm not sure, like, I'm not opposed to being a supporter. I was just thinking about it because I listened to all three of your podcasts, and I was wondering if you had thought about making a way for those of us who just enjoy you as a creator to support whatever projects you're working on. Thanks for taking the time to listen to this. Alright, bye.

0:33:57 Thomas: Here, let me tackle the last thing quickly. I left it in because I've actually been asked this a few times. Only problem, well, first off, I have four podcasts. I have this one, and Opening Arguments, and Philosophers in Space, and Comedy Shoeshine, and, you know, I don't mention Comedy Shoeshine all that much, but I feel like, actually, I kind of have been wanting to more lately because I realize it's where, you You know, my brother and I are on that show and yes, it's us trying to be funny and, you know, I hopefully successfully, but also we talk about mental illness quite a bit on that show. And in fact, my Brother talked about a panic attack and he has a lot of anxiety and, and he spoke about a panicked attack he had on an episode. I think it was one 97, if you want to check it out. And a lot people commented saying that really resonated with them.

0:34:45 Thomas: So I just want to throw that out there. It is actually kind of where I talk about a lot of that stuff, even if a lot of the time we're also making inside jokes that hopefully make any sense to anybody. But anyway, the reason I can't do that, first off, if the answer is you want to just support me, well, going to SeriousPod.com slash support or Patreon.com/seriouspod supports just me.

However, I imagine you also are saying you'd like to get the bonus content, and that is a little more complicated. I don't, unfortunately, there isn't really a way to do that that makes any sense, because, uh, while yes you can support me in this show and get that bonus content, the other shows are with partners, and it's not very fair to them to, um, you know, take money and then give you access to what's effectively part of their property in these bonus things, whether it's Aaron or Andrew or or even Sam. And also tax wise it doesn't work, and they're, they're entirely different, you know, entities tax wise and all that kind of stuff. So, unfortunately, no easy way to do it and have the bonus stuff. But of course, if you are just talking about supporting me as a person, then doing it through this show is the way that does that directly.

But thank you to anyone who supports in any way any show. I highly appreciate it. It's it's amazing that, uh, people do that. It's really cool, and a lot, lot of people do, and I can't thank you enough for it. So thank you. All right, to the more serious stuff. So again, I want to emphasize that I absolutely want to handle this and think about this and talk about this regarding Native American heritage with respect.

0:36:28 Thomas: And I in no way want to be dismissive of these concerns. And unfortunately, I'm not going to do a whole nother episode on this right now. But I have to say, let me just say this. Yes, the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma made a statement that was very dismissive and didn't like what Elizabeth Warren did. And I emphasized in that show, the only problem is it, again, it said that she said stuff she didn't, and it ignored stuff she did say. And I just, I don't think any amount of saying, well, yes, but listen to these people. They are mad. I, I fully accept that and I want to be respectful of it, but that doesn't mean they can just ignore what she said or mischaracterize it.

0:37:21 Thomas: And it's not even, it's not even a question of like intention, which, which I'm willing to err on the side of, you know, intention isn't everything. And if she, maybe she intended something good, but she did something bad fully without on board still, they just said that she said stuff that she didn't, you know, and, and that it doesn't that I can't go, go with. And also I want to bolster that a little bit. Uh, a, I read the, uh, the articles that you referenced. I'll get to that in a second, but B there are three bands of Cherokee Indian. There are three federally recognized Oklahoma Cherokee, or actually, I think it's three Cherokee total in the whole country. Cherokee Nation is the biggest. So, of course, they didn't like it.

0:38:06 Thomas: And that carries a lot of weight because they are the largest. But there's two other ones. And while they are smaller, both the other ones had a different take on it. The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, people shared this with me after the fact, voiced support for Elizabeth Warren. And And here's the thing. It's not just for me, it's not just that they voice support. It is that what they said about it actually reflected what she said. So here's what they said. Senator Elizabeth Warren does not claim to be a citizen of any tribal nation and she is not a citizen of the Eastern Band. Like many other Americans, she has a family story of Cherokee and Delaware ancestry and evidence of Native ancestry. Sneed went on to say that Warren has not used her family story or evidence of native ancestry to gain employment or other advantage, and said that on the contrary, she demonstrates respect for tribal sovereignty.

0:39:00 Thomas: So, I give this more weight, you know, again, fully taking on board that this is a smaller group of people, you know, the other one, I, now, again it's one representative making that statement, but we can assume, I guess, that they, that that person speaks for a lot of people, but that put stuff and put words and changed words that Elizabeth Warren said. And this one that is also one of the Cherokee federally recognized Cherokee tribes made a statement that actually goes with what she said.

I'm sorry, but I like that carries a lot more weight for me when it's a statement, that it actually reflects the words that Elizabeth Warren said, which is she's not trying to claim tribal citizenship. She's not. She recognizes that, you know, and And here's what the third tribe said, they said, this is the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians, So there's only, again, there's three federally recognized ones. Here's their statement, it's shorter, it's more, you know, kind of down the middle, but it says, DNA can't prove tribal membership, but that they appreciate Elizabeth Warren's enthusiasm for Native America, is what they said. It so it's almost, you know, like one critiquing her, one supporting her, one in the middle. Again, if you want to go by numbers and do it that way, then, then yeah, okay, the the biggest tribe had a problem with it.

But again, I just cannot help but go with the statement that actually reflects what she said. It just, it bugs me that so many of the statements against her just ignore what she actually was was trying to prove. All right, and now I'm realizing if I go down and analyze these articles that it will turn into another episode, so I'm not gonna go fully into them.

0:40:42 Thomas: I will say a couple things. A, people should read them, so, caller, you mentioned what they were, I encourage people to check them out. Again, I absolutely encourage reading all the views on this. I will say that just now when I tried to find the statements of the Cherokee tribes that supported Elizabeth Warren, it was nearly impossible. Seriously, just Google, start Googling like those terms to try to find it. And all it is is page after page after story after story about how Elizabeth Warren, you know, so wrong for doing this and everybody hates her. There's like one article from Business Insider that bothered to quote the other two tribes that I could find. Like seriously, it's and it's what what's I think really worrying me about this thing so much is that we're already starting this cycle.

0:41:31 Thomas: We're already starting to do it. We're starting to do what we did with Hillary, where she just becomes the monster that people wanted her to be because enough of a critical mass of like the flood, the results, the Google results are just a flood. You know, like you can't unless you're looking for the statements of support, you can even find them. But what I'll say about The Intercept, A, The Interception loves to crap on the left, that's, like, their favorite thing, but, you know, I won't say that disqualifies these articles or anything, the authors are the ones who wrote the articles, and I'm sure they, you, know, we can evaluate the authors on their own merit. I will say about this one, just quickly, the What Elizabeth Warren Still Doesn't Get article, what amazes me is it, ah, okay, I can't, I want to launch into, like another 30-minute episode, I pretty much already said it, basically, Basically, she's damned either way.

0:42:22 Thomas: Like it's criticizing her on things where if she had done the other thing, it's just as easy to criticize her the other way. That is like one example. She proved, she provided evidence that her ticking that box, as she did, that said she was, you know, had some Native American ancestry, didn't get her the job.

And she was doing that because Trump and all the a-holes on the right are trying to say that she, oh, look, she took it, Pocahontas over here took advantage of the blood is to get her job. And so she said, no, I didn't do that.

And then this article is saying, how dare you suggest that people who were Native American would have gotten an advantage, you know, and and need to be, like, apologetic about the fact that, you know, like it might have been a diversity hire kind of thing. And, like, I get I get the point, you know, like I get that the point you're making, but can't you see that we are once again putting a woman in power that, like, like one of the few women that maybe has a chance to even be president, and, in you know, and ever, you know, there's still only a few, there's one who's got close, and now this is another one that might have a chance, uh, you know, maybe, maybe, uh, maybe, maybe Kamala Harris might get in there.

The future is looking pretty good right now, but it could go bad any minute. Anyway, the point is, are we doing this again where either way she's screwed? She's fending off attacks from Trump. And we did this exact thing with Hillary. When she didn't respond to Trump, it was, oh, wow, big mistake there.

0:43:59 Thomas: Should have responded. When she did respond, oh. Why are you stooping down to that level, Hillary? Come on. Oh, you're being so alarmist about Trump. It was either way. Are we going to do that again? Where when she defends the fact that she didn't use this to gain materially to get to get her position, when she defines that, then she's screwed the other way because of the implication is that Native American wouldn't have deserved the thing. No, I'm sorry. I'm not going to do that.

I'm going to respond and somehow it's offensive in some other way that she didn't clearly didn't intend. I'm, not going, to do, that sorry, not, going, do, it. And as for Harvard, I don't hold her responsible for what some diversity rep who's trying to make a case that they had more diversity than they did, I blame that person, I blamed Harvard for that. I do not blame the incredibly impressive woman who got a job and then ticked a box because she knew a story that she had some sort of heritage. I've blamed the institution that tried to use that to their advantage, the powerful, powerful institution. I blame that over the person. I'm not going to hold her terribly responsible for that.

And here's one thing that also frustrates me about that article in it, it quotes Elizabeth Warren, it quotes her statement on this, on this very thing, where she says, here it's a quoted, "I wish that I had been more mindful of the distinction between heritage and tribal citizenship. Only the tribes can determine tribal citizenship, and I respect their right. That's why, why I don't list myself here in the Senate as Native American."

0:45:40 Thomas: So she's essentially saying, I wish I had known better. Sorry. 20 years ago, 25, actually, yeah, 25 years ago. I I wish I had known better, I don't do it now. And a bunch of this article, you guys can read it for yourselves, a bunch of this kind of pretends like that quote never happened, like she, like, she never said that, it's, I think, okay, I don't want to do another half hour on this, I easily could because it just, it's a frustrating situation, and again, I, if you disagree with me, I respect that, like, I really do, I especially if you're, you know, you're listening to Native American voices And you're hearing what they're saying and you see it the other way. Totally respect that. I really do. I do hope that it's not getting carried away enough to where, you know, if she's the candidate, you're going to not vote for her because of something from 25 years ago, I hope.

0:46:34 Thomas: But I clearly respect it. You know, I don't respect people who are opportunistically using this in In sexist ways to shut her down, to try to take down an impressive woman who might have a chance to be president, I don't respect that, but, you know, if you're someone of good faith who, you know, is listening to, or if you are Native American, definitely email me, I would love to hear your perspective on it, but I totally respect that and I can't say that enough, I, it's just so hard, you know? I, I just don't think she's getting a fair shake, so that's my take on it. I really really appreciate the voicemail. And I do encourage you, like, check out those sources she mentioned. I read them. I'll go further into it, I guess, if people wanted to later on. But I don't know. I feel like we've covered this. Let's move on.

0:47:19 Voicemail: Hey, Thomas, what's going on? I just want to make a quick point about the third parties and how every four years they pop up out of the woodwork, talking about they want to be taken seriously and demanding that they be seen as a legitimate alternative. You know, in the days after Trump was elected, there was a huge wave of resistance, of a huge wave of people who wanted to get involved and really get into the political fight. Now, if there is ever a time for the third parties to step up and build bridges and build coalitions and kind of tap into that enthusiasm and tap into that energy, or to kind of wrangle in those lost sheep, that would have been the time. That's what building a party is. It's finding common ground. It's building bridges.

0:48:05 Voicemail: It's building coalitions. It's the dirty, unglamorous, nitty-gritty work of pounding the pavement, knocking on doors, starting movements. And we didn't see that. We haven't seen it then. And we haven't seen it now. But I promise you, in four years, we're going to see them once again pop their heads out of the ground, talking about, you need to take it seriously. They're going to siphon away valuable votes for the Democrats and whomever. And then they're going to talk about how they were shafted and how they were left out of the process. Well, I hate to say it, the process is now. And when you look around, they're not participating. So I dare anybody who kind of buys into that kind of third-party crap that they're not legitimate, well, guess what? This is the time for them to do it. They're not doing it. So sit down, shut up, because they didn't do the work they were supposed to do. All right? All right. Love the show. Bye-bye.

0:48:51 Thomas: Hey, you said it great. I appreciate your passion, your energy, I appreciate that message. I totally agree. I want to add just a couple things in agreement, really, which is, I'm not one of, there are people, maybe during 2016, actually going back for as long as I can remember talking about it, who, there're people who kind of talk as though, yeah, of course, if the third-party candidate, you know, if some independent candidate could get the votes, then clearly that would be the best outcome, but you got to work within the two-party system. System. And it wasn't until 2016, really, you know, 2015, 2016 in that election where I think on opening arguments in this show, I started realizing and saying like, wait, I don't agree with that. Like, there's this assumption that like, well, clearly we would all prefer that like or a lot most of us would prefer an outsider independent candidate.

0:49:39 Thomas: But like when I looked at the other candidates, they're not good. Like they're just not. I would like, even if, I even if whoever I voted for instantly would become president, it wouldn't be Jill Stein. It wouldn't have been that other, the libertarian guy, Gary, uh, Gary Johnson. It wouldn't, you know, like that's not gonna, that wouldn't even be who I would pick if I, if I had the magic wand to make someone president.

Like this is the weird thing about this to me, because I think you, what you're pointing out is right about these third parties, which is that if they were into coalition building, they wouldn't be third parties. They would recognize, because if you compare the progressive sort of democratic socialists, like the far left of the party, with the middle of the Democrats, or or the middle, the right of the the party, or even the middle of the party, it's a different party essentially.

Like it's it's as different, like the middle, center-right Democrat is probably as different, if you look at representatives and what they vote for, especially like a red-state Democrat, by the way, um, they're probably as different from the far left Democrats as liberty, or whatever, name your third party, the Green Party, I don't even know who the best third party is, but like some sort of independent, independent candidate is from Democrats. And I think when you think about it that way, when you think about the fact that really, the progressive, maybe even socialist side of the Democrats is effectively another party. However, they recognize that you have to build a coalition to win power.

0:51:14 Thomas: And so that's how they're doing it. When you recognize that, or in my opinion, anyway, when I recognize that, I realized, oh, okay, I'll just do that. I will just support the most progressive candidates on the left. And yes, there are going to be Democrats somewhere in the middle and the left, and maybe sometimes in the far left, but in the middle and right, they're going to vote for things I don't like. They're going to support some things I don't like. But that's what it means to have any sort of coalition. Like you're not, no party is going to be full of everybody who's identical to you. Like if that's what you want, when it comes time to vote for president, just write your own name in, because that's the only person who's going to agree with you, and you have just as good a chance as a third party candidate. So why not just do that? So that kind of was a revelation to me.

0:52:00 Thomas: Maybe that sounds obvious and stupid to some of you, but it was kind of a revelation. To me, which is, oh, it's not really the two party system. You know, like it would functionally be the same as a multi-party system in which the progressives were separate, but they still had to caucus and coalesce with and form a coalition with maybe a more center left center, you know, centrist kind of Democrat party. It's turns into the same thing. And by the way, same thing on the right, there's the nut job, right? Which is most of the right. And then there's like, well, this This is less true, but it used to be true that there was the nut job, right? And then there's some kind of center, you know, still right wing, of course, but like more center conservatives and their coalition too, just because you call them one thing doesn't really mean they're one thing.

0:52:46 Thomas: And that's why I don't even care about third parties anymore. Like I'm not, I don't even care about the two parties. I think the two party system is fine. You know, honestly, like I think we, we need to stop using the word Democrats as a singular to mean all these different things. That's that's the thing I'm seeing in frustrating arguments. Oh, you like Democrats. Well, this happened, you know, like this policy here in this year happened and that had Democrat on it. It's like, OK, fine. But I really like Elizabeth Warren. And I still like a lot of what Bernie Sanders is saying. Things I dislike about him. But I like the far left progressive Democratic socialist wing of the Democrats. And the only way the only way they are going to gain any power is through a coalition with Democrats is by being a part of that.

0:53:37 Thomas: And so I'm cool with that. So I'm good. The more of Congress is Democrat, the more the progressives will be able to get their agenda because they can't get anything done. They literally cannot get anything down when Republicans control all of Congress, then they might as well not exist. It doesn't they don't do it. They can't do anything. So it was a simple thing. Sorry, I ranted a little bit, but I appreciate the passion. I agree with that voicemail. And thank you for leaving it.

0:54:05 Voicemail: Hey, Thomas, this is Hausdorff. I wanted to call and talk to you about the current voter suppression stories that are in the news, and kind of get your thoughts on what we can do about it. I mean, the only thing I can really think of as a response is to vote like goddamn crazy and just overwhelm them in such numbers that it doesn't matter, which is great in theory, and I really hope we can that. That and, you know, in addition to just voting, like I've been, you know, volunteering for the local campaign, block walking, phone banking, and all that shit, and that's great, and hopefully that helps enough that it will matter, but between voter suppression and gerrymandering, I feel like we have to come over the top of them by so much, and it just seems a little bit overwhelming, and a lot of this stuff over the last couple of years that have been kind of terrifying, it's like, like, you focus on, okay, there's this election coming up, and we've got to vote.

0:55:03 Voicemail: And if they're stealing the election, all of that seems like all for naught in a certain way. Again, if they'RE stealing an election and they wind up winning, would protesting even matter? They can just ignore it because they're just going to steal the next election. And it's really, really terrifying. And I just wondered if you had any thoughts along these lines. I guess one other thing I wanted to throw in. I remember shortly after Donald Trump got elected, Andrew had said something about, like, you know, at this point, I don't remember where we were in the process, but he said, you know, if this point if we find out that there was some, you know, something funny with the election, all we could do is get rid of Donald Trump. But it's not like Hillary Clinton would be in power. It would just be another Republican. Republican. And would we be in a similar situation if, you know, if it comes later on that everyone agrees that, you Know, the whole thing in Georgia was illegitimate, and he gets kicked out of office, it's not like the other candidate wins, like what happens?

0:56:03 Voicemail: I don't know, I hope you have some, some answers. All right, well, as always, thank you for the show.

0:56:08 Thomas: I do not have answers, thank you, Hausdorff, for the message, I'm just as depressed about this as it sounds like you are, I think that's, you know, this has been a real, not that I was under any sort of childlike illusions in 2014 or something, but if I was, that's all, it's all gone now, it is not a movie, you that there's all kinds of illegal stuff, possibly working with the Russians and voter fraud, all this stuff. Ah, we figured it out. We've unmasked the villain. Okay. So now Hillary gets to be president or somebody, you know, definitely that means that the other side gets to power.

0:56:53 Thomas: Nope. Nothing happens. Literally nothing happens. Why? Because they still have power. So nothing happens? I don't even, I don't even think I go as far as you when you say like, oh, just another Republican will be in power. No, I, it'll be that same. It'll be Trump. It will be. And in, in these other elections, it'll still be that person. Like I, I don't think there's anything that'll happen. Our system is set up and this does come from Andrew.

I hopefully I'm not misquoting him or anything, but, but I have that same memory as you do, which is, although I actually, I have a worse memory of it, which is not only does it not mean Hillary is president essentially, or whoever you're talking about, it doesn't even mean that Trump would have to step down, it's that's not how we're, like, our system is apparently such that if you can kind of steal an election successfully, even if people find out about it, if it's not within like a week, it's not within a very short amount of time, then it doesn't matter.

And as far as voter suppression goes, I don't think that would ever get to the point where anybody would ever have to step down over that or anything, because you can't prove who would have voted or who, you know, you, I think we can all be pretty sure that it makes a difference, but yeah, I think they can. The answer is, I think they can just get away with it. I'm pretty sure they can. And there's nothing we can do.

The only thing we can do is vote. We try to vote. Everybody vote as hard as you can and make sure other people, you vote because like you said, trying to vote in numbers that can't be suppressed is the only answer really, but it just sucks.

0:58:28 Thomas: It's amazing how much a sort of dying breed of of person, which is these old, you know, 65 year old conservatives who really do. They just they vote so much more than the youth, you Know, so much. More of them vote the way our system is set up, especially with the Electoral College and the fact that states with zero people get two senators, you you know, essential states that has two people, both of them are senators, um, makes it so that a minority of people can really hold us hostage. And it's frustrating. I don't know what, I don'T think there's any, I DON'T see a good future from it. I mean, maybe DC statehood and Puerto Rico statehood that that might help a little bit, something like that.

0:59:15 Thomas: Um, but I don't, again, these are things you have to get the rest of the system to agree to. So because you have have to get the system to agree to it to change the system for that, I don't know how we do it, you know, it's not as though California may someday just be the size, Californian, like New York or something, is like the whole country, and a lot of Florida, or I forget what the third most populated thing is, but but, like, it's someday it could just turn into, like, that's 80 of the country won't matter because the way the system's set up, unless physically that group of people takes over people somehow in a conflict, the way it's set up, their votes just do not matter. And I don't see a way of fixing that unless you get the other side to consent to giving up power.

1:00:04 Thomas: And maybe someday that could happen. Sure as hell doesn't look like it now. I do not see any chance of that happening. It's all for Republicans. It seems to be solely about power. That's the only thing it's about right now. Um, because whatever the, whatever they need to say to retain power is what they say. It doesn't even matter that they're lying or they're saying things that weren't conservative views two years ago. Doesn't matter. All that matters is, is the power that they're retaining. Okay. Uh, that's all the time I've got today. Thank you for the calls. I really do appreciate, please. I encourage you keep those up. I enjoy them. I like hearing from you. Thank Thank you so much to the women who called in this month and shared their stories. Really, anytime, seriously, anytime anyone wants to do that, of any gender, by the way, I do.

1:00:54 Thomas: I think that's always a good thing to get that out there, to share it, to let people know what's going on. And I hope that you get some kind of support and any sort of consolation from getting this signal boost. That's all I can hope for because that's that's all I'm trying to do here. Okay. Thank you so much for listening. If you like the show, it's very important to support it, patreon.com/seriouspod or seriouspod.com support. Uh, it really is what makes the show happen. It will cease to happen when there's no support. So thank you so mucho to those who do, and I will see you very soon.