SIO161: Mandisa Thomas, President of Black Nonbelievers

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 161, and if I sound a little different, I'm coming at you from a hotel room in Bordeaux, France, with Eli Bosnick and Anna Bosnick and Heath Enwright, it's a fantastic trip, little fun get-together and stuff before QED, which is coming right up, if you are anywhere in the area, Manchester area or somewhere that you can get there easily, there is still time to come and hang out. There may not be tickets because they were sold out very early, but Friday has all kinds of fun events that are open to everybody, and I will be there. I will be hanging out with people, so come visit if you can. I'm really looking forward to it. All right, for today's episode, I've got Mandisa Thomas.

0:01:17 Thomas: This is an episode that was recorded a little ways back, but got somewhat preempted by the Kavanaugh stuff because I couldn't help but yell about that for a few weeks. But this was a fantastic interview, really interesting stuff. Mandisa is, of course, the president and the founder of Black Nonbelievers. She's done all kinds of interesting work, very interesting background. And honestly, I'm going to give an opinion here, and this is just me speaking for myself. She was someone that a lot of people thought may be the new leader of American atheists after the previous leader had to step down for Me Too-related reasons. And I, for one, am really sad that they ultimately didn't go with her. I think she would have been great.

0:02:02 Thomas: And I think it would have been a chance to finally, you know, allow someone of a different background to head up a major organization. I think it would have been a big step forward for atheism. And I think it would have been a really positive step for inclusivity, I think would have helped reach out to groups of people who maybe haven't been reached out to before by major atheist groups, so it's really too bad, I'm sad that didn't happen. About that. We didn't talk about this in the interview or anything, which is why I just wanted to bring it up here, because that's my opinion, and I'm pretty sad about it. Of course, no offense or anything to the leader they did choose. I'm sure it wasn't his call, obviously, but yeah, no, it's too bad. But anyway, that all aside, this is a great interview. I learned a lot. I think you will, too. So here we go. Mandisa Thomas.

0:02:58 Thomas: Mandisa, thank you so much for joining me, oh, it is my pleasure, I'm really excited to talk to you, first question is really about your biography, I'd really love to just learn more about your background, and we can get into the activism you've been doing, and the groups you've started, and are running, and all that good stuff, but let's take, take us back to the basics, how did it all begin for you in terms of atheist activism?

0:03:01 Mandisa: I'm very glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

0:03:21 Mandisa: Sure. Absolutely. Well, first, I was born and raised in New York City, in Jamaica, Queens, in New York.

0:03:31 Mandisa: Interestingly enough, I was born in 1976. My birthday is coming up in a week. And I was born at a time that was very pivotal in the Black community, which involved a lot of identification communication with Black pride, as well as go of any identities that were considered oppressive. So there were a lot of my peers at the time, myself included, and my brothers being named African names. There was an attempt by many Black folks to try to identify with Africa and being Afrocentric, like I said before. And so I was one of those children who was raised pretty eclectically. I was raised pretty secular.

0:03:36 Thomas: Ooh, yeah,

0:04:22 Mandisa: Actually, my maternal grandmother wasn't really religious at all, but my paternal grandmother, my dad's mother, is. So I had this very interesting mix of, I had a very diverse upbringing. I was raised with learning a lot of knowledge about Black history and culture. I also am a classically trained singer, and I used to sing with a voice instructor in various churches. And so I still have what is considered like an outsider's view of church and religion. I have a more comprehensive background as far as learning about the religions or knowing some aspects of the religion without actually being made to follow it.

0:05:12 Mandisa: So I was still indoctrinated though in other ways, but I wasn't formally raised religious. I remember the first time I was asked if I was atheist was when I was 14 years old. I was in high school. And I was very militant, very pro-Black and very outspoken. And so someone asked me, was I atheist? And I asked, well, what does that mean? And I was told that I didn't believe in heaven or hell, which to me sounded about right, because I remember thinking as a kid, you know, I used to wonder about death and what what happens after we die. And, uh, I just remember thinking, well, you know, I, I tried to reconcile this idea that I would go to heaven once I die, but it always just, it, the thought always came back to me because again, no one had ever come back from the dead.

0:06:08 Mandisa: There was never any evidence of anyone saying that they died or there was no credible evidence of that. So the question kept coming up in my mind. But then after a while, I said, you know, I began to identify as spiritual but not religious because I told myself that I would never fully believe in Christianity for sure. And from what I remember, my experience and my exposure to Islam was always felt restrictive in addition to Christianity, so I just knew that those weren't the religions for me. I got into atheist activism in 2011. I had the opportunity to meet Jeremiah Kamara for the first time in 2010.

0:06:56 Mandisa: He's the producer of the documentary Contradiction, which talks about the influence that the church has had on the black community and pretty much to a detriment at this point. So I had a chance to meet him and also connect with other atheists online. At the time, I was still back and forth. I didn't really, I kind of eschewed the atheist identity for a while. But I kept coming back to it because over the years, I had this kind of hate-hate relationship with religion and Christianity in particular, because most of the Christians I knew were very hypocritical. They weren't necessarily the nicest people. And I found that people who didn't necessarily treat people any better than anybody else.

0:07:47 Mandisa: So I became more familiar with what was going on in atheist communities online, and then I wanted to engage more with people offline. I was told about a meetup that was supposed to be taking place here in Atlanta, a Black Atheist Meetup. And so but when I looked online, I couldn't find anything. So I went to the first advertised meetup I could find. But prior to that, I had also I had also talked to other black atheists online and heard of their experiences with attending predominantly white meetups. And so at first I thought, well, you know, if we're all atheists, then we should be able to find some common ground there and get along.

0:08:37 Mandisa: But little did I know that I would experience some of the same things that the others experienced with going to predominantly white meetups. It ranged from being very welcoming, which was good, but also when we began to explain the challenges of being a Black atheist, we were dismissed as if it wasn't a bigger barrier or there wasn't more crucial barriers that prevented more because it was only myself and another black guy that was in attendance at the meetup. Everyone else was all, everyone else was white. So I turned to, you know, I told the other guy, I said, you know, there has to be more of us out here, especially in Atlanta. There has to be more black atheists out here.

0:09:23 Mandisa: Maybe they just don't know that there's a community out here, or maybe they just don't know that there is an alternative, especially with being black and atheist. So, um, it was decided that we would start an organization, a group called Black Nonbelievers of Atlanta, which was supposed to be just local. We were going to, um, have that space for, you know, Black atheists and others to join us in person, have have meetings, have, uh, social gatherings, and also connect with other groups in the area, because at that time there was very little outreach among the groups. The groups were not cohesive at all. So, you know, we started from there. And over time, there was interest in starting groups in other areas.

0:10:12 Mandisa: So the guy at the time had since moved on to other projects. So I had taken on Black Nonbelievers of Atlanta and then increased the scope, shortened it to Black Nonbelievers. And then we started from there. And so from there, we just kept growing and continued our activities and events. And over time, we became involved with other projects. We started featuring our members. We were contacted by students and other people to have us featured on camera and such. But so the progression of starting Black Nonbelievers increased within the span of like a year because we had started doing so much.

0:11:05 Mandisa: And there was a lot going on in the atheist community at the time. You know, the Reason Rally was in 2012. And so there was just a lot going on. And I really do have my background and my upbringing to thank for. And I consider myself a bit fortunate that I didn't really have to unlearn religious indoctrination like so many others. And I also understood the value of support. And for people, you know, who are coming out of this, once they come to this understanding that there is no God or they don't think there's a God, who's going to be there for them? You know, who's going to be a support system and how do we help navigate each other through these rough waters on learning a lot of these stigmas and ideals that came along with being indoctrinated with religion in particular.

0:12:00 Mandisa: And so that is what we set up as as an organization. And again, I have my background and my upbringing to thank for that, because things haven't been always easy for me. But I'm glad that I had, you know, I was able to to start this organization and that my vision was appreciated.

0:12:22 Thomas: Oh wow, so much there, great storytelling, just wanted to be quiet and listen for you just told your story in like 10 minutes it was a Yeah.

0:12:27 Mandisa: I get that a lot.

0:12:29 Thomas: This is a great concise storyline, I love it. Uh, it makes my job so easy. Um, and it strikes me, I have so much to talk about, but, um, one thing I found interesting about your story is, you know, going to that meetup group, having only, uh, I guess you said two black people there, and not feeling like it served your interest and well enough, uh, which which can very much imagine, but I also wonder, it's so interesting because it seems as though your background is very much, you were just alluding to this, your background, uh, is very much not typical. It seems as though in the Black community in America, it's usually there's much much more religiosity, don't you think? But it sounds as though you had a much more of a secular upbringing. But it's despite the fact that your background and experience is not exactly typical of the Black community in atheism, it still felt as though this group wasn't serving your interests.

0:13:23 Thomas: And I'm just wondering if you could talk talk about what what elements of the Black experience, um, are unique that that, you know, white atheists like me might not, uh, understand because I haven't lived that experience, right.

0:13:35 Mandisa: Absolutely. So, yes. Yeah, the thing about the Black community is not even that I think it. The Pew Research numbers show that the Black Community, 87% of the Black Community identifies as religious in some way. The reason for that is, and I know I've said this quite a few times over the years, is because of the ties that the church has to the Black community and religion has during slavery, which is an excuse because, you know, religion, Christianity in particular, and the Bible was imposed on Blacks during slavery. But after slavery ended and after Reconstruction ended, once there was that period of time of progression within the Black, you know, within the United States during the Reconstruction era, that was when the, after that is when the Jim Crow laws were enacted and there were laws put in place to effectively disfranchise Blacks.

0:13:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:14:45 Mandisa: So therefore, there was a reliance and the, you know, dependence on the church as an institution to provide support and community in particular amongst most Blacks in this country. Also, because there were schools started by religious institutions, historically Black colleges and universities, yes, the church became a main gathering place for many Blacks, as well as just strategizing place during the Civil Rights Movement in particular. There is an extreme emotional tie to the church within the Black community that seems to render it almost impossible to let it go.

0:15:33 Mandisa: It's like Black has become synonymous with being religious, and once you let go of that identity as religious, then it's seen as you're betraying your race. See, you're seen as not wanting to be black because only those white people are atheists. They're the godless ones. Never mind that the Ku Klux Klan ran on a Christian platform. So, you know, they aren't those, you you know, they aren't the good Christians. So there is a significant role that the church has played, especially when it comes to the representation of the community, as well as who was able to speak on behalf of the Community back then.

0:16:20 Mandisa: The pastor was always held in very high regard during slavery and after slavery. So this is where you have that traditional tie into who represents the Black community, which does become very, very challenging that if you let it go or if you let your views be known, not that it hasn't been done, but it's just that unfortunately, the legacy of the church has obscured the diversity within the Black community and also because we have such a highly religious presence, which is very much tied into the fabric, you know, the music, the entertainment, politics, everything seems to be governed mostly by Black folks' religious beliefs.

0:17:11 Mandisa: And it's like, again, if you are an atheist or if you identify as an atheist, it's like you're not just rejecting God, you're also rejecting being Black.

0:17:22 Thomas: That that makes perfect sense, it must be, it's it's unfortunate that, you know, the Black community couldn't just take a 90 degree turn and take that same, you know, uh, religious church church experience, which I'm sure is so beautiful and so helpful to so many people, but then separate it from like Christianity and dogma. But it makes perfect sense that, you know, when you have decades of living in that. Go ahead.

0:17:45 Mandisa: Yeah. And let me just say, sorry, not to cut you off, Thomas.

0:17:48 Thomas: No, no.

0:17:48 Mandisa: Let me just say that there are still a huge amount of white folks that still believe in religion. They believe in God or what have you. But also, when it comes to the systemic racial injustice, economic injustice, those are other factors that need to be taken into consideration as to why Black folks still hold on to the church. Because there is some validity as to what the role that the church played at a time when the United States as a, you know, as a system has disproportionately affected Blacks and people of color and other marginalized groups very badly. So yes, I do agree that, yes, it shouldn't be as hard to separate the, you you know, the, the religion from the, you know or what happened from the people. But when you, when we're talking about the systemic issues as well as the historical aspect there were other groups of people who were, you know, who were subjugated in this country and like the indigenous populations.

0:17:54 Thomas: Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah, right.

0:19:00 Mandisa: I think though that the, the Black experience within this country does need need to be understood as to why there is such a high religious presence. It doesn't need that, doesn't mean that it needs to be excused, but that is understood that

0:19:18 Thomas: Right. I mean, that makes perfect sense. You know, and dogmas and religion are very powerful. I think there's a a reason most people are religious, it's it does, it's not something that it's it's particularly easy for, you know, a bunch of people to just stop, it's always been a very powerful pull, so it makes sense when you add in to in Black history and Black American history, you add in that community and civil rights tie-in and all that, like it, it makes sense that it would be even stronger of a pull, but you know, I was curious, you were talking about when you grew up kind of in the 70s and 80s and the time that it was when people were rejecting Christianity because of the history there.

0:20:03 Thomas: There's also a turn to Islam in some parts of the black experience. Isn't there like a kind of an embrace of Islam as the religion that kind of is more tied to black history? Is that right?

0:20:17 Mandisa: Is correct, um, during the times, and and we're we're going into one of my my favorite heroes, uh, Malcolm X, uh, where we're talking about, uh, the Nation of Islam started to rise, uh, to prominence within in the 50s, um, the yeah, the 50s and the 60s is when the Nation of Islam started rising to power and prominence by folks rejecting the Christianity, which was seen as, you know, as whitewashed and Eurocentric, because, yes, the white image of Jesus was burned into everyone's brain. So therefore, yes, Islam, the nation of Islam in particular, was purporting itself to be the true religion of the black man or black woman. So yes, there are

0:20:23 Thomas: Mm-hmm.

0:21:05 Thomas: Is that something we Still see a lot today? Or did that, did that trend go down, up? What do you do? You know anything about that? Hmm.

0:21:11 Mandisa: Still quite a few folks that are involved with the nation of Islam. Their numbers aren't where they used to be, but they still do have a huge presence in major cities, New York in particular. We still see them here in Atlanta. They have always supported themselves by kind of running their own businesses. And yes, so they, and at one time, the Nation of Islam was very, very instrumental in helping people get off drugs. And so we We acknowledge the good that they have done. We also acknowledge that, you know, the church had its, you know, its good use at a time. So, but also ultimately that the Nation of Islam just became one, you Know, cult just like the church. So, you know, it was it was very, very much you had to be involved with the religion or else. So, yes, but there was a cult, there was a religious shift where a lot of Blacks converted over to Islam, particularly under the Nation of Islam in the United States.

0:21:34 Thomas: Right.

0:22:27 Thomas: And it's interesting from an atheist perspective to be like, oh yeah, I'm leaving Christianity. Oh good, where are you going? Islam? Ah, it's a lot, a lot of dog weather too, right?

0:22:35 Mandisa: Yeah, and so you know that when people are searching for that sense of community and belonging, especially as it pertains to identity, identity, especially in this country where we were taught that Black is ugly and Black is subservient. There was this sense of identification with wanting to be strongly and pro-Black. And the Nation of Islam did provide that as an outlet for some time within the 1950s and 60s. I think the 70s, it was still there, but there was more of, you know, you had the rise of the Black Panthers. You had the arise of other groups that were more politically involved and wanting to take more action as far as, you know,

0:22:42 Thomas: And

0:23:31 Mandisa: Getting certain, getting certain rights, uh, improved for, for Black folks, which of course was a serious threat, but, um, it was more loosely based at that time. You know, the Nation of Islam didn't necessarily identify strongly with, like, African culture, being Afrocentric, but there were others who, the other, uh, groups and that, that came about, which, which did. And, and other individuals that did. So, yeah, it's a very interesting and fascinating history for those who want to research. I mean, it is very, very good learning for sure.

0:24:12 Thomas: It sounds like, it sounds all the more critical when it comes to Black non-believers in the Black community, that if we want people to become less religious in general for the reasons of dogma and bad beliefs and all that kind of thing, that providing a community that they can go to, to try to replace or fill in for the really strong Christian community that Black Americans tend to have, sounds all the more important. Is that a goal of Black Nonbelievers?

0:24:47 Mandisa: Absolutely it is. And also there are just, and I'm just giving an insider here, there are just the argument continues within the Black Black community about what it means to be Black, you know, whether you're, whether if you're biracial, are you Black enough? You know, if you are, if your religious or not, are you Blacking up? And our space is one where you don't have to question that part. No one will ever have to ask you that question. No, no one will ever ask you to question whether, you know your, your identity, if we will. But what we do challenge are all of the stigmas and notions that come along with being raised religious, as well as this idea of what it means to have gender norms and standards. Because even amongst atheists in general, there are a lot of Black atheists who are still extremely homophobic.

0:24:59 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. I

0:25:47 Mandisa: They are still extremly transphobic. They are still extremely misogynistic, very patriarchal. The man should be doing this, that, and a third. And so we challenge that. And I know that as a woman leading this organization, I've had to challenge that even as recently as today, someone challenging me on how I should have said something to them when they were being condescending. And it was like, well, it was, like, how dare you challenge me? And you're supposed to be a leader. You're supposed take everything into consideration, even though I'm being this being this asshole. And so, um, yes, uh, this idea that a woman, you know, dares challenge that is still something that we, we, you Know, that, that we push back against.

0:26:40 Mandisa: Uh, so yeah, just challenging that notion of what it means to, you know be black and having that space from that and, and having this space where you don't yourself if, you know, you like something that may be considered more Eurocentric in nature, but also that, you know, we're open to learning and also, you know, increasing the knowledge about that. But also, just having that, just making sure that we're having that welcoming environment for people to learn and build as well as educate.

0:27:15 Thomas: And what came to mind, uh, when you're talking about that, to me is, is it's why I find the concept of intersectionality to be so useful, um, and it's so weird to me that it's such a, for, for large swaths of the online atheist community, it seems to be this controversial or even scary term to them, but it seems it's, it's a, it's not a, it seems gender and gay rights and all these different things that are going to affect you differently, that are gonna affect each person's identity differently. You know, it strikes me it's so different to be, you, a white Christian versus a Black atheist, or a white woman versus a Black man. I mean, there's just so many differences in those variables.

0:28:02 Thomas: And I feel like they're kind of embodied in your story here. And it just seems to me that intersectionality is such a useful way to understand that, no?

0:28:12 Mandisa: Absolutely. And as much as certain white people would love to think that we're all on equal footing, that, you know, that race doesn't matter, it does. When you consider the, you know, the, the huge presence of atheists within, uh, the you know of, and the number of white atheists as opposed to other people of color, um, when you see that, um whites are still more represented than, um you know than, than others and also who we hold as, as the spokespersons, um most of your white atheist will point to of a white white atheists. And that's just supposed to make everyone comfortable, and it doesn't.

0:28:57 Mandisa: Yes, acknowledging that there are communities in this. And honestly, sorry, just to back it up a little bit, I remember seeing a quote somewhere that, you know, whites were the ones who made race an issue in the first place. You know, like when it came to domination and when it became to conquering other people, collectively, whites are the ones who made this an issue. So you don't get to just ignore it or act like it doesn't matter. It does. And when you have these experiences and when you know the history and such, you have to take that into account.

0:29:03 Thomas: Yeah. Absolutely.

0:29:34 Thomas: I was gonna say, absolutely, and I, I'm right now I'm in the middle of Stamped from the Beginning, uh, and I think it really excellently points out that very thing. This idea, there's this idea, and it's, it's so depressing because it even infects people like Sam Harris and a lot of his crowd, and I've, I've been very critical of that, because there's this idea that like, well, white is kind of neutral, and then, like, other groups bring in identity politics, you know, and it's so frustrating, especially when you read a book like Stamp from the Beginning, and you come to find out, as you just said, you know, race was made an issue by white people as a justification to be able to conquer and take over and do whatever they want to all these other groups of people. You know, like, that, that's the identity politics. You Identity politics goes back forever.

0:30:22 Thomas: It's not some new thing that these groups are bringing into the mix that we ought to get rid of.

0:30:28 Mandisa: Yes, absolutely. It's a very, very novel idea, know, for us to do that, but, you know, unfortunately, you know, we still have work to do, we really do, and so, you know, when it comes to, like I said, when it come to those, uh, politics, you know, they're gonna, uh, is, they're going to have to accept that this will be, as long as, as long as, um, people try to ignore it, the more it's going to, uh, come up, and it won't go away. So, you know, it's best to address it now, as well as rethink, because there are many white folks when I give presentations on a history of humanism and atheism in the Black community, this is information that they don't know.

0:31:16 Mandisa: No. And sadly, there are other Blacks who don't know it either, but especially because they didn't have to think about that. But we do. So when they put themselves in our shoes and how we have to look at it, then hopefully things will change.

0:31:35 Thomas: It does feel like 2016 was a big step backwards in empowering a lot of people and emboldening a lot of people that I, for one, had previously thought maybe weren't as active anymore, but it turned out they were just being a little quieter, I guess, until they were emboldened. Do you think you're making progress, though? Do you think Black atheism is growing, do you think? What are the signs? I know, actually, it was super cool when, um, I think Arian Foster came out as atheist, right? That was a few years back, that that was a major thing, um, so is it, is it becoming more acceptable in the Black community, do you think? Oh?

0:31:52 Mandisa: Yes, absolutely.

0:32:12 Mandisa: Well, I think, you know, Arian Foster still holds a, you know, he still walks a fine line because, you know, we tried to get him to, we try to connect with him and we weren't able to. And so there is some progress. There have been Blacks who have challenged religion and there are now, we have seen a rise of openly identified atheists that are in the Black community. And also who have who have come to it as a result of finding Black Nonbelievers. I do think that, you know, there's still some work to be done. But yes, if we're able to if the more people who can openly identify as possible, the better. And I'm also glad that we've been able to facilitate that. So, yes, there has been some progress. There also has been Some progress with the representation in literature, there are black atheist authors, other black atheist activists, speakers, as well as talent.

0:32:17 Thomas: Really? Hmm. Yeah.

0:33:14 Mandisa: So we are still more of us are making our voices known and heard. We are, you know, we're coming, coming. I

0:33:22 Thomas: Yeah, are you, uh, are you optimistic these days? I find myself not being optimistic, but, uh, your answer sounded pretty optimistic, and I would, I would love it if you were, because that would make me feel better. How do you, how do you feel about the country?

0:33:34 Mandisa: Am, I am to an extent, but it's also discouraging. Sometimes it gets very, very stressful, because it's like, gosh, it's such a labor. This has been such a Labor of Love, if you will. And trying to get folks to genuinely support the mission of the organization without there being something in it for them, and also getting them to do, you know, the work has been quite difficult. I recently, as I announced at the American Atheist Convention this year, I resigned from my job to take on activism full time. And I hesitated on that for a few years because I know I needed to sustain some income. But as the increased, as the request of the demands of the movement increased, I decided that now was the time for me to jump full in, into to activism more than I already was.

0:33:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:34:31 Mandisa: So, you know, I was already very, very fully immersed in the movement while working a full time job. So now this is my full time work. I'm hoping to get it to a point where it is more paid work. But, you know, where we're hopefully getting there, sometimes, the you know, sometimes the perceived naivete of folks who act like they don't understand those who want my input and the input of the organization and the work of the organization without fully supporting it does become tiring at times. But end of the day, when I know that people are being helped as a result of us being here, then I know that what we're doing is the right thing. I know I did the right thing because I have engaged quite a few people in this movement, and I know I will continue to engage more. And that has been very, very positive. That has been very, very rewarding in the, in, in that, um, people, more people are understanding and, uh, you know, and, and getting to see the work that we've done.

0:35:15 Thomas: That's Really exciting, I know that's definitely a scary leap, I'm sure, but, know, how has it been? I mean, I know that's a, that's scary decision to make, but it sounds like you sound positive on it. I hope it's going well.

0:35:46 Mandisa: Uh, it is, uh, for the most part, um. I, I'm able to, you know, attend other events and, and travel and speak and do things on behalf of the organization, organization, without having to stress out to go to work Monday morning. So yes, that has been a plus. I've also established a Patreon account where I talk about community building and also other subjects that I may offer my crazy opinions on that I don't necessarily write on Facebook, if you will. So that's been another way to have people help support my activism because I still have bills to pay. So, um, I try to, I, oh, thank

0:36:24 Thomas: Yeah. Feel free to toss that out if you want. I'm so kind enough to share your time, so feel, feel free to give out your Patreon.

0:36:31 Mandisa: You. Yes. Um, yeah, the, the link to my Patreon is, uh, Mandisa Latifa. You'd have to, uh I'd have, I'd give you the link, um to the show because you can't just search it because it contains adult content. So I've been able, yeah I've been, um you know, you'd have actually type it in but, um also the, um the increase in exposure Folger was great. You know, I was featured in both the Humanist Magazine and Playboy Magazine in July and the July-August issues of both magazines. I was also recognized as the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association's Person of the Year. And so, you know, that has been great. I'm very, very proud of that. So this has been it's been a really, really good year. It's been great since I've left the job.

Of course, yes, I was a little nervous about it because, you know, I have to even though we're in two income household, I still have to, you know, so my husband has a pretty decent, decent job and has been very supportive. You know,I still have the contribution household, too. But, Yeah, I'm glad to have been able to do so and do what I need to do as far as the activism and growing that part of it, because that needed to happen. Happen. So with that, it has been very, very good for the most part. And I'm very, very happy that I made that decision. It was a necessary one for a number of reasons, not just the activism, but taking into account my family as well as myself. It was move that I needed to make.

0:36:42 Thomas: Oh, okay. Right, yeah. Yeah,

0:38:10 Mandisa: I

0:38:11 Thomas: I mean, it sounds like a tremendous amount of work if you're doing a full-time job and trying to organize as much and as well as you have been. But going back to the optimism thing as well, you know, what makes you optimistic? It always seems like, I guess I've been in atheism for, well, I don't know, I'm not really in it, but I've only been paying attention to it for, I dunno, eight, nine years, something like that. It always feels like we're right on the threshold of a demographic, you know, boom. Like I said, oh, young people are so irreligious and, you know, it always feels right there. And I guess, you know, nine, 10 years isn't that long, but still, it always feels like we should be making a ton of progress, but I'm never sure if we actually are. Are you optimistic about, uh, youth and as regards black atheism in particular?

0:39:01 Mandisa: Am very, I'm very, very optimistic about the number of younger folks who are coming out of their religion. Amongst the younger folks, though, there is still an issue when it comes to dealing with their parents who are religious. You know, they can't be out even though even though they're on their college campuses. You know they have to be very careful whether they you know whether they openly identify or not. So that is still a grave concern for them. And that's also a grave concerned for us. Us. So we need to make sure that we're there for them. And so I am optimistic about the number of folks who are finding us and who are coming to us. And we just need to be diligent about how we offer our support and guidance on helping them with their journey. I think the very nature of people determines that not everyone will be on the same page and definitely not at the same time. So accepting that sometimes people will be people will be people. I've learned to navigate that and say, hey, you know what?

0:39:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:08 Mandisa: Those who are with us fine. Those who are not, okay. It's been difficult. It has been a part of the managing process of being in this movement and dealing with people. So I've learnt to gauge my battles and what I will focus my time on. And I've chosen to to focus more on dealing with the people and still meeting with the people no matter what, you know, on various issues because really getting people together in person and mobilizing and just building that community has been really, really great because that lets people know for one, they're not crazy. And you know there are others who can understand and identify and there are are others who they might be able to, you know, to work with.

0:41:00 Mandisa: So that has been a really, really good thing to have facilitated. And I'm glad to see that that movement is growing. I

0:41:09 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, what do you think, from your experience and all the work you've done, what has been your experience in your view of the kinds of things that maybe help deconvert or help people leave their faith? Typically, on YouTube, there'll be debates and stuff like that, and I never am sure how effective that even is. Do you have any opinions on what kinds of content or what kinds of arguments or what what it is that actually helps people leave their religion?

0:41:43 Mandisa: Think it's a mixture. There are many people who are inspired by the debate, some inspired a little bit too much by them. There are others who, again, they said they become atheists by reading the Bible, um, and also doing research, you know, so the whole mythicism thing, right.

0:41:57 Thomas: Yeah. So Is that we need to Hand out bibles. Get an atheist group together, just hand out bibles. Yeah.

0:42:06 Mandisa: You hand them out so you can actually read it, you Know, don't take it to your pastor to be, you know, interpret it. But I mean, honestly, I have never read the Bible in its entirety. And I was an avid reader growing up that there's no, there's, it's a boring book.

0:42:09 Thomas: Right. It's Boring. It's The worst book ever. It's so bad. I've read it, it's so bad, it really is

0:42:21 Mandisa: Yes. It's horrible. And myself being a reader, I could never get into it. And it was, it's just like, oh my God, this book is just the worst. No wonder why people don't read it. And no wonder you can, you know, you can kind of better understand how many people can become so wrapped up in the religious part of it and just going by what their pastor says, as opposed to actually reading that book for itself. Again, that doesn't make it an excuse, but you can certainly understand how that happens, especially with, with that Bible.

0:42:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:56 Thomas: I almost wonder if it's an advantage for Christianity for the Bible to be so long and horrible, like nobody even wants to bother with it, so it's like you can just kind of, all right, uh, you know, pastor, whoever, just kind of give me the broad strokes, just explain to me what's in there, I can't do it. Yeah, I uh I read the entire thing, it's awful. Yeah.

0:43:09 Mandisa: Yep. It, it exacerbates the, it exaggerates the intellectual laziness and, um, you know, not that it causes it, but it certainly makes it worse. I also, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm also, I also think that, um. Seeing, you knows, speakers on YouTube and also seeing them in person, you now, seeing other people, um, and, uh, you know, just, just people seeing the work that is being done as well. So it is a mixture for some people. It is a process. You know, some folks like me were pretty much already there with the religion, but as far as the community part and support, you know, we, we realized that, that, that aspect needed to be developed more. Um, there are some others who, um again, there's You know, the debates, you know, strengthening their arguments when they are, you know, when they're challenging believers or they confront believers in any way, then that's what draws, that's how they draw strength.

0:43:23 Thomas: That's interesting. Yeah. Good sure.

0:44:15 Mandisa: I tend to think that those who are in it to really build with others, that has a more more longer lasting positive effect because then that way, um, that, that to me establishes a better foundation and is more productive. Now others may find that I'm wrong, but, um yeah, there's just there again, there have been different methods for, for, for people. Some have incorporated all of them and others have just, um you know, maybe use one or two, but for the most part, you know some people have tried the different religion thing. They've jumped from Christianity to Islam and Buddhism and such, and then they've just transitioned their way out. So again, there's no one right way, or there was no one way for many people.

I would just encourage many people, as many people as possible, to check out Black Nonbelievers as an organization. Visit our website. We have a major, an amazing event coming up. Our convention at sea in November. There's still time to register and sign up if you'd like to join us. We have some wonderful speakers, and we also have some Wonderful People on board from all backgrounds. So please check out our website at blacknonbelievers.org. We're also on Twitter at BNonBelievers. The B and the N are capitalized. You can find all of our active groups on the on the website. You'll be automatically connected to the meetup pages. And so if you want a better understanding of what we go through, then please, again, check out our website.

0:45:09 Thomas: Yeah, well,

0:46:01 Mandisa: Feel free to ask us objective questions as much as possible. And we hope to better, you know, facilitate and And win your support.

0:46:15 Thomas: Awesome. Uh, convention at sea, is this a cruise or something? That sounds really cool, that

0:46:19 Mandisa: It is a cruise. We'll be aboard the Carnival Sensation right after Thanksgiving. We did it last year, which was an amazing event. Yes, sailing out of Miami to Turks and Caicos in the Dominican Republic. And we will also have the convention portion where we will have speakers and other presenters. Centers, so um, yes, it's going to be a great time if you've never been on a cruise before, it's a great opportunity, um, you know, that a cruise can be a bit intimidating, it is, it's lot of fun.

0:46:46 Thomas: Sounds very fun and just in time after After Thanksgiving, when you have to hear from your religious family, you know, you can take a, take a nice vacation after that. Yeah. That sounds

0:46:56 Mandisa: Absolutely. And the weather was great too, so we hope the weather holds up again this time. That was in the high mid to high 80s, so it was wonderful, and it was so great to see so many, many people on this cruise, too. The cruise ship holds about 2,000. So in addition to meeting the other folks with the convention, you're meeting a whole bunch of other people, too, which was a great experience.

0:47:19 Thomas: Really fun, and definitely I'll include all those links in the notes, and Mandisa Thomas, thank you so much for coming on, give me some of your time, and, and uh, helping us learn about your background and the work you've done, it's really interesting.

0:47:32 Mandisa: Thank you so much for having me once again. I really appreciate it.

0:48:00 Thomas: Consider supporting her on Patreon, great person to support in community, and I'm so glad she came on, and once again, I hope to see you at QED, so feel free to shoot me a message or anything if you're going to make it, and say hi. Totally feel free, come up and say hi, unless I'm giving a talk or in the middle of something. But no, I'm looking forward to it. And with that said, I will see you next week.