SIO157: Sustainable Agriculture, with Dr. Sarah Taber

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 157, and today I am happy to bring you an interview with Dr. Sarah Taber. She's a scientist, she's an expert in sustainable agriculture, she does inspections, she does consulting, and she's got a lot of cool stuff to teach us about food safety, sustainability, and And you might learn some pretty interesting counter-intuitive stuff here. For example, how she feels about farmers markets, the artisanal movement, who should shoulder the burden for making agriculture more sustainable, and get behind the process of how she goes about her work and how she notices when things might be amiss on a particular farm, it's very interesting and let's get right over to it.

0:01:21 Thomas: I'm joined by Dr. Sarah Taber. How are you doing?

0:01:25 Sarah: So good. How are you?

0:01:26 Thomas: I'm doing great. I'm really excited to talk to you. I love the name of your podcast, Farm to Taber, it's...

0:01:34 Sarah: Thank you. It was someone else's idea, but you know, it's it's good to recognize when it happens.

0:01:35 Thomas: Right, yeah, okay, you're very fair, you gotta give credit where it's due, but I thought it was hilarious, and also I'm excited to talk about sustainable agriculture and all that, but first, I'm wondering if you could give the listeners a bit of your background, a bit of an introduction to who you are.

0:01:43 Sarah: Oh, thank you.

0:01:56 Sarah: Sure. So I'm Dr. Sarah Taber. I'm a crop scientist and I originally got into crop science on account of I love plants. They're they're nice. They're quiet. They're chill. You know, like they, they just want to do what they're gonna do and You

0:02:08 Thomas: Yeah. Except that Venus fly trap. That's the only one that's really...

0:02:14 Sarah: Know, they do what they want to do too, they know what they're about and they just do it. Um, so that was, that was kind of what I got into it for, was just really, just I really like plants. And I then come to find out, you get a little further into it professionally, and you realize that in order to take care of the plants, you have to takecare of the people who take care of the plans. Um, so you get into something because you like plants and then it all winds up being people. So that's, that's life, right?

0:02:14 Thomas: Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

0:02:38 Sarah: But yeah, so a lot of what I do now, you know, I started out in crop science, and then I started doing a lot of food safety. And food safety is really interesting, because a lot of folks really think it's about, you know, like techniques and practices, it's about washing your hands, it's about, you know, SOPs and all that stuff. And that's in there. But what food safety s really about is about human systems.

It's about making sure that socially, people are aware of what they're supposed to be doing, that there's accountability, and that the folks at the top of the organization are doing what they're supposed to be doing. The folks at the bottom, you know, like, you know, they're at the bottom of the organization. Organizations are already pretty good at telling them what they need to be doing, but it's holding the folks at the top accountable that's really challenging. So that's kind of what food safety is all about. It's actually about people. It's about human systems. So that is kind of where I have been tilting a little bit in my work is, you know, we need to understand human systems, you know. They're real. They're important. And they're actually behind a lot of what, what has made agriculture so, um, not sustainable in the past. And in order to really make it more positive and more sustainable, we have to pay attention not just to our techniques, like composting and cover crops and all that, but we have to pay attention to human systems. So that's

0:03:16 Thomas: Interesting.

0:03:49 Thomas: That is really

0:03:50 Sarah: Uh that's that

0:03:50 Thomas: Fascinating. So it is one of those things where you think like, oh, I am going to find the scientific solution to this problem or it is going to be based on something like that. But then it sounds as though when you get into it, it is like, like, oh wait, people just aren't doing the things that they need to be doing.

0:03:51 Sarah: Right, yeah, you know, scientific solutions are just kind of a pipe dream without out people who can can do them. So yeah, pretty much.

0:04:11 Thomas: Wow, that's really, that's both depressing and fascinating. It's sort of like that, I think it was an Onion headline from a while ago that's like, scientists remind us sustainable technology is here whenever we want to use it, essentially.

0:04:25 Sarah: Yeah, and I mean, it's really, it can be depressing, not gonna lie. But uh, you also do run into companies and farms that are actually doing things the way they're supposed to be doing them, and their management's actually responsible, and you're like, wow, this is really amazing. And uh, like the morale at those companies is always good, because you know, management's doing what they need to bedoing instead of being negligent. And um, like, it's, there's a different feel to those operations. You can almost feel it, like as soon as you walk on, you kind of know what kind of day it's going to be. Um, so the, the ones that are having a hard time are just, you know, really challenging and really difficult for, you know, I'm just there for, you knows, a couple of days, but the folks who work there all the time, like they got some morale issues because they're getting pissed off by management all the... um but the places where management's doing what they need to be doing, like, they feel good.

0:05:11 Sarah: Um, and you always learn a lot from those guys about how to do things right, so that's been really, really cool, yeah.

0:05:16 Thomas: Yeah, so are you, you're in a position where you're auditing farms or what's, can you describe that interaction you're talking about?

0:05:24 Sarah: Um, so um, I kind of do two lines of business. One is auditing and one is consulting. And uh, auditing, I just subcontract through a food safety auditing company. It's not government. Um, I tell people, I'm not from the government, I'm here to help, but they never think that's funny. Um, the uh, that's, that's through a company. So it's kind of like organic certification, certification, where if you want to sell to a certain buyer and they expect you to have organic or safe food safety certification, then you just call up a company that does that and you say, come check me out.

0:05:42 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, okay.

0:05:55 Sarah: Yeah. So that's kind of one side of the business. And the other half is training and coaching and consulting for food safety. So if you're a company that needs to get audited and you want To make sure that everything goes right the first time, then you call somebody like me and we kind of walk you through that process.

0:06:09 Thomas: But this, this is interesting that it's all, it sounds like that's all private sector kind of stuff, there's not does that how does that strike you? Doesn't seem like, I mean, should the government have some hand in being like, hey, is the food safe, everybody? Oh,

0:06:09 Sarah: Um, really is. Yeah. And that's, yeah. So we're kind of unique because that's the produce, right? So if you're meat, dairy, eggs, I think even to some extent bakeries, um, you have government oversight. So, um, it could be the county health department or it could be the USDA, just depending on the scale, if you're moving food across state lines, that kind of thing. Um. But produce never really got any kind of government oversight until like 2009.

0:06:31 Thomas: Okay. Wow. Right.

0:06:45 Sarah: Because yeah, there just hadn't really been any problems really associated with it. We hadn't been causing outbreaks until pretty recently. Or at least they hadn't been getting caught. I think this is more of the case is they just hadn't been getting cut.

0:06:55 Thomas: Yeah. I'm trying to think, off the top of my head, I feel like it was always sprouts were like, the, those were the there's stuff with that, and then what was the lettuce one? Yeah, what is it about sprouts, they just have bad hygiene, or what? Yeah,

0:07:00 Sarah: Yeah, sprouts are disgusting. Yeah. It's like the, you know, they have to basically grow them in like warm water. And salmonella just likes the same environment, so if you have like any shred of salmonella contamination, it's just going to multiply really fast. Um, it's like they're kind of warm and it's not as bright, they're indoors, so like if you have lettuce growing out there in the field, it's usually in California or Arizona or somewhere where it's hot and dry, and so, you know, they would, they would water them with like overhead sprinklers using kind of grungy canal water, but it was also in in a desert, so dry up right away and um, it was just like so much UV radiation that the bacteria didn't really have a chance to multiply. Um, so I don't want to say that's fine, we definitely still had outbreaks tied to that, but it's nowhere near as bad as sprouts, just because sprouts are like warm and they're sheltered and they're indoors, everything has a chance to go wild in a way it doesn't necessarily outside. Um, so that's sprouts, uh, where were we, regulatory oversight, yeah,

0:07:38 Thomas: I'm sorry, I just, was that, I find that very interesting, yeah, you're talking about the, you know, how much outbreaks that have been resulted from produce versus means, so that's besides sprouts, and gosh, what was the recent romaine, or was it right but other than that, it seems like historically it's been safer, so that's why there hasn't been as much government regulation.

0:08:11 Sarah: Yeah, yeah, I don't know if I want to say safer, you know, because that's, that's really kind of gone on a limb, right? But it's not as risky. Um, so the, you know, we just had those bad E. coli outbreaks in 2006 with the spinach, and there were a couple other things that kind of made people go, oh, this is actually a category of food that can have problems, it has just never been on the radar before. Um, the Food Safety Modernization Act of 2009 was kind of formed in response to that. But long before, we call it FSMA, you know, Food Safety Modernization Act, but long before FSMA was passed, grocery stores had been noticing that they were getting outbreaks from produce. And your average grocery chain or grocery store is hit with like 50 recalls a week. Like, that's a lot. Yeah, that's just a lot to deal with when you have like, you know, like a stocking crew that's got a high school education kind of situation, and just keeping everything straight, it's just a big hassle for the grocery stores.

0:08:27 Thomas: Sure. I

0:09:14 Sarah: And so they started going, look, we're going to handle this through the supply chain. If you want to sell to us, you need to pass an audit. And by no means have they like prevented every single outbreak from happening, but the number of outbreaks has actually gone down significantly. Once, you know, once the store starts using that audit system, they start getting less outbreaks. So yeah, that's entirely private. That's just supply chain based stuff.

0:09:36 Thomas: Was going to say, how about that free market? Apparently it can help sometimes.

0:09:40 Sarah: Well, There's also a free market for diploma mills, so, That's, that's the challenge as an auditor is, okay, um, in terms of my appetite for risk, I want to make sure that if I'm working with a company that's doing certifications, if I go to a farm and it's disgusting and I give them a report that says this place is disgusting, I don't want the company that I'm looking for going behind my back and issuing them a certificate anyway. I don't want to work for a company that's going to give me pressure, like, oh, come on, we really need to keep this client, and they want to be happy.

0:09:43 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:10:10 Sarah: Because I've worked for some other companies besides the one I'm with right now, because the company that I'm, MIT is the first one I started working with, and they actually do QA, like, they actually, uh, want their clients to be up to the standard that they say they're at. Um, so I assumed everybody works that way, but they do not. I started work with another one subcontracting briefly, and I went to a few facilities and I was like, get me the fuck out of here. Um, I think I see what's going on here, it's disgusting, so, you know.

0:10:37 Thomas: Well, now I got to ask, I mean, as I assume you are an eater of food, I'm guessing. Don't I guess I shouldn't make a assumption. Do you eat food? No. As a Consumer of food. The, what are the kinds of the things you're thinking when you, you've, you've peeked behind the curtain here, are there, do you get weirded out by it, are you, are you kind of like, oh, it's it is what it is. What are your feelings as a food consumer?

0:10:37 Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. More Or Less, yeah. You You know, the only food I've really been put off from is sprouts, and I hated sprouts anyway, I just don't enjoy putting them in my mouth, so that was like an excuse really. Um, I know there's a lot of folks in food safety who have just like this long list of things they won't eat anymore. And I'm kind of one of those, the cobbler's kids are always barefoot kind of people, I guess. I'm like, I'm always thinking about food safety at work. If I'm not at work, I don't want to be worrying about it. You know, if you see something obviously disgusting, you don't eat it. But I'm also wanting to really just be in that mindset all the time.

0:11:30 Thomas: So there's no, like, Category of food where you've seen, I've seen too many horrific farms or whatever it is, so I'm not going to eat this, besides sprouts, but you don't Like sprouts.

0:11:39 Sarah: So I definitely see some things where I'm, like, okay, if I'm going to eat that, it's going to be washed or it's gonna be cooked, you know, but it's not like I'm never eating it. Other than sprouts.

0:11:44 Thomas: Okay right right right well it seems like you got to wash your produce anyway right Right.

0:11:48 Sarah: Um, Yeah, I mean, it depends on the product. Like, there's a lot of things where washing it won't do you a whole lot of good. Like, lettuce and leafy greens are just really tough to wash because there's so much surface area there, um, and even in the best situation, washing can only remove 99% of the crap that's on there. And you think, well, 99%, that's pretty good. And you're like, well, not if there were 10,000 salmonella on it to start with, right? You still got like, what you know, yeah, it's still pretty bad. Yeah.

0:11:57 Thomas: Right.

0:12:12 Thomas: I guess, yeah, I don't know the units of salmonella that are bad. I guess a thousand salmonella is still bad. Or that would be a hundred salmonella. Yeah. Okay.

0:12:20 Sarah: So, I mean, like, washing can take 99% off, and folks think, wow, that sounds good. But it's, I mean, if it's really dirty, the washing's not going to help you out, so a lot of what they do for washing in the produce industry is actually just to remove like physical debris, like dirt and sticks and cigarette butts that may have been in the field, um, that's actually what the washing is for. And while we're doing that, removing physical debris, we need to make sure that we're just not, you know, if there's a clump of lettuce or something that was gross, that we are not spreading that grossness around. So we'll put antimicrobials in the water, like, you now, sodium hypochlorite, or if you're an organic operation, they can use Sanidate and some other like organic certified antimicrobials in your water, just to keep it from spreading around. You're not going to get rid of it on the one piece of lettuce that was gross, but at least you can keep it from spreading it around.

0:12:21 Thomas: Oh, wow.

0:12:37 Thomas: Yeah, what, following up on that though, what are the kinds of, I dunno, what are a few common things that you might see or that you're looking for as a food safety expert to say, oh, this is a bad situation. You don't want this.

0:13:20 Sarah: Right? Man, I wish I didn't have to say this, but just like straight up illegal activity that's only happened a couple of times, but it's enough to kind of

0:13:25 Thomas: Oh, Oh, wow. So they need to give you a badge and a gun, I think. And then there should be a movie about you.

0:13:30 Sarah: Uh, I mean, yeah, diarrhea hunter, um, you know, so some old west sounds, but, um, I mean, we've, we've had a couple times when people found really wild stuff going on in the facility. I've had it a time or two when a farm just wouldn't let you into a certain closet or storage area, and I mean, that's, we have to go check all the parts out because if you have a rodent problem in there, then it can spread everywhere, right?

Um, you know, they're always like, well, there's no food in here. Well, it doesn't matter because if there's rodents in there, they're getting in your food. Um, so we've had a couple of times when a farm would just would not let you in somewhere, and you're like, okay, well, just so you know, like, you're gonna fail the audit if you don't let me in there. And they're like, that's fine.

So I always kind of go away from those spots, you know, you finish out the paperwork, you know, everybody signs to confirm they canceled the audit and you always kind kind of drive away going like, "What were they smuggling in?" There, I'm never gonna know.

0:14:23 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I just assume they're all growing marijuana, right? Cause they got some sort of, that's what I would assume.

0:14:25 Sarah: Yeah It was, it was a darker closet than that would have really worked for, and I didn't smell any weed, so I'm like, it's either meth or people. Oh, I don't know, yeah, you just never know, right.

0:14:31 Thomas: Oh, okay. Oh God. Well that's horrifying. Well those are, that's sort of fine illegal stuff, but what are, I mean, what are some basics that even if you haven't encountered somebody violating this, what are you looking for? Like, checking off your list? Hmm.

0:14:49 Sarah: Okay, so this is kind of something that is, it's funny to me as a farm inspector, because a lot of folks will say things like, well, if you've been to the farm, then you know, right? Um, but there's... there's a lot of signs of stuff that's happened that you're not going to see unless you kind of have been trained to see it and you know what a normal operational farm looks like, so just if everything is kind of broken and everything's kind of grimy, you know, that's that's pretty obvious. Um, one is like water damage on certain things, like if you see water damage in a cooler, then you know that there's, you know, especially if it's on, say, the ceiling of a cooler, which I've seen before, um, if you see water damage on the ceiling of a cooler, you know that it may not be happening right now, but you know in the past there has been like water raining off the ceiling into produce, um, and that's disgusting, so I've seen that happen before

0:15:06 Thomas: It sounds like water is the enemy like you need water but if what if you got water in the wrong time and place then that's really bad for yeah

0:15:35 Sarah: Yeah you know it's never just water right there's always something in it so so that's kind of a big thing is you want to look out for for water it's just know where it's coming from see where it is going and if you see water where it doesn't belong that's a big red flag um so that is a big one and it's not always there in the moment when you're at the facility but you can kind of see signs you can you know see tracks and stuff like that um that I've kind of found and it's really hard to define but again like the emotional tempo of the operation I mean that's not data you know you can't make any judgments just based off of that but it does kind of tell you you may have something to look for or what exactly to look forward

0:15:44 Thomas: Gross okay that's interesting

0:16:17 Sarah: Yeah like you'll, it's if you've ever read Anna Karenina you know know it's like every every happy family is the same and every unhappy family is unhappy for different reasons kind of deal and I feel like farms and manufacturing facilities are almost that way too like the the ones that are working and clicking like they just they feel right they've got a certain feel to them um you know they're busy uh they might be a little stressed out but it's the good kind of stressed out if that makes sense um and ones that aren't clicking and something ain't right in there um typically like food safety problems come from management neglect and negligent management is going to neglect a lot of things not just food safety so there's worker safety problems so the workers know they're in danger and management doesn't give a fuck all right that's going to show up in your morale um

0:16:17 Thomas: Right yeah well this is so fascinating so it's down the line of what you said where it's like here you thought you're You're going to be, I don't know, using some Ghostbusters type instrument to measure plants. And then it turns out you're just gauging people. And like, you have to be like this savant in terms of, you know, judging the room. And that's so funny. I never would have thought that.

0:17:14 Sarah: Right you got to to use your heart that's your highest piece of technology it's no it's it's Really interesting, like, if you kind of, you can feel it and you don't always know exactly what's wrong, but you kind of know there's something, and so you kind to, you know, keep an eye out and, and keep yours open, um,

0:17:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That makes perfect sense, though, because like, I'm sure most people listening can relate to that shitty job they had somewhere. And it's like the whole, you know, nobody, nobody cares, you know, the bad morale or you're not, you know, there's going to be, you can feel it. It's not going to be a, a good, uh, operation.

0:17:45 Sarah: Yeah yeah yeah it's not a good vibe and it's I I really it's hard to put a finger on it but I've kind of talked to some other food safety people at very major companies like major grocery chains and I'm like so this happened once and they're like oh yeah if you feel something ain't right that's that's important pay attention to that yeah so it that was

0:18:06 Thomas: Wow. That's so interesting. I really, I really liked that. It's so funny that you just wouldn't have thought like, uh you know it's a scientist thing and a lot of what you're doing is, is really based on kind of intuition and feel, but I guess that's how people work.

0:18:10 Sarah: Yeah yeah well I mean you can't make a final decision based on that right because again it's not data but it kind of it can kind of guide you as you're going around um

0:18:22 Thomas: Right. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes sense. You're not putting on the report. Got a weird vibe. You're just using that to indicate that maybe you need to take a look.

0:18:34 Sarah: Line one I don't know this place just kind of sketched me out I don't know why yeah you can't do that um but again like sometimes when you drive into a place I found there's a correlation between if a place's parking lot is really chaotic and sketchy the inside is not going to be any better um which sounds really dumb but like parking lot logistics are actually really important for a facility that has lots of trucks coming in and out right like you need to have your spot for employees to park and you need you have a like lanes for semis to come through that are big enough and that kind of needs to be ordered and everyone needs to know what's going on so that requires communication and that requires management to have a plan and uh if they can't have a planning plan they can have a management plan right uh yeah

0:18:35 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Wow.

0:19:18 Thomas: Yeah. Well, you know, plus so much of the stuff you would think or one would think would be inherited or learned over the decades. I mean, farming is a pretty old thing.

0:19:20 Sarah: No um yeah There was actually a really interesting book that came out a week or two ago by a historian who started out her career as a business analyst at McKinsey and Co and later became a historian, so she does business history, and she did a lot of really interesting work and traced, uh, how do you say, American business management culture, like, you know, our traditions of how we think of labor and how we account for the cost of labor and all that, so the place where all that developed was, uh, slave plantations and, uh,

0:19:32 Thomas: No Hmm. Yeah. Oh. Wow.

0:20:04 Sarah: Boy. You can tell, like, there's... there's a pretty direct line, which is really interesting because I'd kind of been, uh, seeing a lot of those same trends in agriculture. Um, the farms that operate the best are the ones that treat their people the best, and that being the case, you would wonder why so many operations treat their workers so badly. Clearly there's another influence going on here besides actual profit motive. Um, there's just a lot of emotional baggage that the U.S. management class has not sorted through since 1862. So yeah, kind of gross and fascinating, but, uh, this was something again I'd kind of been wondering, and then this, you know, very well researched book by a historian comes out like a couple weeks ago, so I'm eating that one up, you, you know? Um, yeah.

0:20:04 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That's Really cool. You know, I kind of was wondering if we can transition because you mentioned, uh, organic, I'd love to get your thoughts on organic. I've had a few scientists on here in the past, and I, I kind of can't really make up my mind. I mean, my impression has been that it, it kind of seems like a label that isn't all that meaningful and allows people, people to just charge a lot for something, but I, but, I don't know, I could be wrong, let me know,

0:20:56 Sarah: Oh no.

0:21:11 Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, it just depends. And I have a lot of mixed feelings on it because, you know, like, as we've kind of been talking, the thing that I noticed that really makes a difference and makes or break an operation in terms of sustainability is how it treats people. And organic has nothing to do with that. Um, so it's a little orthogonal to what I do.

0:21:26 Thomas: Yeah, oh, just for anybody who's not familiar, and I need to brush up myself, what's the actual, you know, dictionary definition of what it, what it means to be organic, okay, well,

0:21:29 Sarah: Um, I don't know. They've, they've changed the rules a bit since I was really paying attention last, um, they Kind of update the regs every once in a while, I think. They didn't use, for example, they didn't use to require dairy to be pasture fed, and now it is, but I don't know if that's like 80% pasture fed, 80% of the time, 80% of the actual food they eat. I don't know, um.

0:21:54 Thomas: We won't, you know, we're not going to grade you like it's a test, we'll just take the broad strokes of what, it just means not using certain chemicals, and not use, right, is that kind of thing, no?

0:22:04 Sarah: Yeah, actually no, so that's another, like, a big, um, a big bone, thorn in the side of the organic community, is they believe that they're all about soil health, right? It's about the soil, and I really think soil health kind of evolved as shorthand for just having a long-term viewpoint. Um, and that kind of got boiled down to it's all about the soil. Um, but again, taking care of your soil health doesn't do shit for people necessarily, so I don't think it's the whole picture. Um, but what consumers think it means, so what the organic movement and the sustainability activists, they think it mean soil health, what consumers think it means is no pesticides, so organic operations can actually use quite a bit of pesticides, they're just special organic pesticides, and Um, yeah, I mean it's funny because every once in a while, I mean, well, pretty frequently, when you're working with an organic operation, they'll really have this attitude that, like, well, I can dump my pesticides when I'm done with them because they're safe, and you're like, no dude, they still kill things that's literally why you're using them, so

0:22:06 Thomas: Okay, right. Yeah. Yeah. Plus

0:23:00 Sarah: I've seen some really interesting irresponsible, irresponsible behavior on the

0:23:02 Thomas: It's organic So You can probably drink those pesticides too, I mean it's healthy, yeah

0:23:03 Sarah: No. No. You really shouldn't, they still work, that's the point, right? Um, so it's really interesting because, on the one hand, like, it really does have a lot of the markings of just kind of a marketing situation, uh, on the other hand, it actually has created a market for better agricultural techniques, so there was really never demand for better ways to do things, so nobody ever really did the research and developed the products to do it, so from that count, And I think it's been very successful. It's actually created a place to use better techniques. I mean, I think that's really been its big strength. I'm not a Whole Foods shopper, you know, like I work in agriculture. So I live and I work In rural areas, and we don't have Whole Foods here. It is, you Um, it's interesting because I work in agriculture and I work in sustainable agriculture, but the, I think what you think of as sustainable lifestyle thing, I don't do that.

0:24:11 Sarah: Cause like, I dunno, it'S when you work on the inside of the business, you're like, Oh yeah, this really isn't designed to be accessible to everybody. So I'm not going to freak out about it. Like, this is not for me.

0:24:19 Thomas: Yeah, there, there does seem to be a tendency sometimes to put a whole lot of burden on individual people to somehow solve massive problems, and I guess, you know, if it is something where, you know, if we all did X, then it would be fine, but, but sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's like, well, you know, when it comes to, I don't know, water usage, like we can, we can take a shorter shower all we want. And then that'll do nothing because the majority of water is used in agriculture, that kind of thing, where it's like, you know, how much of a difference can we make? But if we, you know, if we can make a difference, it'd be good to try. So, so what do you think? I guess I also want to ask, what are the, what are the main challenges of, of sustainable agriculture? I mean, if I am just naively thinking, you what's the issue? We can just grow stuff forever. Seems fine to me. What are the basic problems?

0:24:48 Sarah: Yeah. Right.

0:25:01 Sarah: People. Yeah. Yeah. What I think you kind of hit it on the head there is a lot of folks are thinking of it as a B2C problem, like it's business to consumer and consumers are supposed to fix it. And really, it's a B2B problem. Business owners are supposed to fix it because they're the ones making decisions at the scale that can actually affect this kind of stuff. So I'll give you a really good example. Like you mentioned shorter showers, like you're living in California, so you're going to take shorter showers to save the world, except most of the water in California by far is used for irrigating crops so I'll give you an example, um, California's got a ton of almonds growing there now, um, or if you're a Californian almond grower, you're pronouncing almonds, so there's a ton of almonds out there that's

0:25:21 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:25:33 Thomas: Yeah, I've I hear people say almonds a lot. They just leave out the L.

0:25:44 Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Something like that, yeah, it's down here at pecans or pecans, you know, it's the same deal, I guess, um, but yeah, so you have a ton of almonds going out there, just like square miles of almonds, and they take a ton of irrigation. And so that, a lot of that is because of a demand for nut milk, basically, right? And nut products. But there's a lot of nuts out there. Why is it all almonds? And why is it all in California? So for example, down here in the South, so being a sustainable ag person based in the South is kind of interesting, because the South really should be the breadbasket of the country. We have a long growing season and tons of water, right? What went wrong? What happened? Why are we not doing that? So for example, pecans, like this demand for nut milk and nut products, a lot of that could be met with pecans.

0:26:35 Sarah: But we're not doingthat because in order to plant a pecan grove, you need to, it takes like five to 10 years for them to mature, right?

0:26:43 Thomas: Interesting.

0:26:43 Sarah: So you have to get a loan for five to ten years that's going to cover your costs. And that kind of agricultural capital is just not financed in the South. We just don't do that down here. Yeah, so you'll see pecan

0:26:56 Thomas: So I take it almonds are quicker to kind of get the turnover and actually be able to pay off that loan, ah

0:26:57 Sarah: Yes. But so they're, they have, you have to grow in California because they need dry weather, you know, they can't handle humidity, whereas pecans can, right, so they have to be grown in California, the ag land in California is easily thirty to sixty thousand dollars an acre, whereas in North Carolina it's three to six thousand dollars in acre, so it takes the trees twice as long to mature here, but the land also costs a tenth as much, so it kind of pencils out because

0:27:11 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. So why isn't that happening then, right?

0:27:29 Sarah: We don't do that kind of financing down here, we just don't. Do it Agriculture down here is seriously undercapitalized, there is one bank that finances just about all the agriculture in the Netherlands, like they're good at investing in agriculture out there, and they have a lot of branches in the US, but they're all in California. I think they just really haven't seen any gain for them in expanding outside of California because that's where people who grow are more professional, professional.

So there's been this really positive feedback cycle in California where the growers are professional, so the financing is there, so there is a point in being professional, and then there's more financing, and we've just never done that here in the South. So there this tremendous market opportunity with nut products that we've never done, like you go driving through the South and there's a few places that have bigger nut groves, but by and large they kind of max out at like two acres, and it's kind of like, you we had a couple hundred dollars left over after the cotton harvest this year, so we're going to plant a couple pecan trees in the backyard to make shade, and then also sometimes we'll pick them up and sell them, like that's that's

0:28:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:28 Sarah: Where it's at in the South, that's our level of intensity is at

0:28:28 Thomas: But I'm surprised that, so then, I guess what surprises me about that though is it just seems like if this is such a no-brainer that some sort of corporation that already has resources to buy what's essentially really cheap land, uh, in the grand scheme of things, I'm just surprised that hasn't happened, like it seems like an enormous business opportunity

0:28:47 Sarah: Oh. It's totally happened so So you know, at folks in California who really do the the high-end egg, you'll hear tale of them coming out to North Carolina or Georgia every once in a while, like they'll come out here, they're like, land is cheap, there's all this water, I'm gonna set me up, I'm going to farm, and they come screaming back to California within five years, they can't make it out here Believe it or not, Californian the South are kind of different, so, uh farmers and the, yeah, farmers in the California Central Valley, like I think they think they're country, and then they actually come out here and they're like, holy shit, I can't take this, yeah

0:28:52 Thomas: Okay mm-hmm Why Is that I know, yeah Oh Like literally they just don't want to be there, wow well but you could also, I mean, you could if you're a corporation with all this money, you know, you could set up an operation, hire people locally, don't you think? Wow.

0:29:25 Sarah: I think that's to some extent part of it, there's again All I know is folks have tried it, never seems to work out right, and I think a big part of that is, so again, I was going on to how California and the South are different A big parte of that is, I think folks who don't farm think that farming works like everything is done in house, right? Farmer Bob wakes up, Farmer Bob does his chores, Farmer Bob goes to bed. How agriculture actually works in California is a farm is really more like a general contractor, and all the the tasks on the farm, like a lot of them are pretty specialized, and so there are companies out there that you hire to come and do specific gigs, like hey, these guys plant trees, um, you use specialized equipment for that, and if you're a farm, you're only doing that like maybe once a year max

0:29:37 Thomas: Mm-hm I See, yeah

0:30:13 Sarah: So why would you buy that specialized equipment, just hire crew to come do it, um, you know, nut harvest can kind of be the same way, a lot of your agricultural tasks, uh, you know, in California are hired out to specialized contractors, and again the farmer is really just like a general contractor, so

0:30:30 Thomas: There's a lot of the infrastructure, structure not quite there to try to do all that, I see yeah

0:30:32 Sarah: Yes. So California style farming really relies on having this entire network, so that's that's kind of again, we're getting to human systems, is sustainable agriculture really relies upon an entire network of really knowledgeable, really skilled, well-capitalized people, and we don't have that down here, and so I think that's actually a big part of why California land prices are so high, is the actual cost of doing business is somewhat decreased because there's so many skilled contractors out there, whereas out here the land is cheap but you have to do everything yourself, you have to own all your own equipment, so, um, I think growers who come out here are just, it's interesting because when you audit folks, like, they just what they see around them, they think is normal, and I like to kind of tell California farmers about the dumb shit we see down here, and it just blows their mind, they're like, uh, you know, they're surrounded by regulations, and because everybody's so professional they don't necessarily see their reason for the regulations, and out here we don't have them at all, so crazy shit's happening all the time, and you

0:30:38 Thomas: Yeah hmm Oh Wow. Can

0:31:33 Sarah: Know, you just kind of

0:31:33 Thomas: You give us a quick example of craziest thing you've seen, wow geez

0:31:34 Sarah: Uh I've seen small family farms like poison their workers by improper chemical use and yeah, it was, it was the kind where it can poison somebody short term, and if you keep doing it wrong you can explode your facility, and I was like, guys, it's right here in the MSDS sheet, did you see that they can explode their facility, and they're like, oh, oh my god, I was like, dude, it's right there, it's in English

0:31:56 Thomas: Yeah Yeah, so we started this, uh, by talking about sustainability and sustainable agriculture, I think, were you leading into, you know, almonds are the short-term thing, but are they, are they longer term not as sustainable because, because, was that what you were getting at?

0:32:11 Sarah: Well, no, it's just that Um, Unsustainable things maybe happen because, or you know, regardless of sustainability, California actually has the financing to do things, period, and the south does not. And maybe the south would do a better job at it, and the South could do it sustainably, but we don't, because we don't have the human capital infrastructure here. So I think that's kind of of the big thing that folks forget is an issue in sustainability, is the human factor is so huge. You know, we're really focused on techniques, um, but we don't think about the human systems that support actually executing them.

0:32:13 Thomas: Oh, okay.

0:32:46 Thomas: Right, but I guess we haven't, maybe this is too basic so that it's not even occurring to you to lay out, but what is the problem? Like if, you know, is it running out of water? Is it running you out of something in the soil? Is when you talk about sustainability, yes, it sounds like you've described things aren't set up optimally, but what are you optimizing and what are the dangers, I guess?

0:32:50 Sarah: Well, mean, it's what you're optimizing for is going to be different in every situation. So, like, in California there's not a lot of water, so you should optimize for water use. Um, in the south we have probably too much water, so you want to optimize for different, for things. And that's part of the difficulty is, you know, like anything with people, and anything with biology, and then anything with both of them, like farming, what you need to optimize for is going to be really dependent on where you are and what you're doing. So I think folks always look for rules of thumb, and there aren't any. The only rule of thumb is there are no rules of thumb. And I think that's what people find really challenging, is they're always looking for an answer, or the answer. And there is no the answer, that is the challenge. I, mean,

0:33:51 Thomas: To what? I mean, I still, again, what is the issue here? What is the danger? Like when you, what is sustainable agriculture? I still don't feel like we've gotten to the heart of the problem unless I'm just really not understanding it.

0:34:04 Sarah: You can just keep growing food and not, like, destroy the environment, and actually grow enough food for people to eat that is meeting nutritional needs, and also provides, like, actual livelihoods that provide, you know, upward mobility.

0:34:08 Thomas: Right. So what is it that's destroying? Right.

0:34:18 Sarah: Bad.

0:34:18 Thomas: Great. So what is it that's destroying the environment, I guess would be like in, in, give me an example.

0:34:23 Sarah: So, like, uh, for example, in California, they it's kind of been plowed flat and everything, uh, so long ago that it's like, I don't know if you want to say this is destroying the environment, because everything's already been flattened, it's already like that. Um, but they're just, you know, there's not enough water to go around, so that's less an issue of destroying the environment per se, and more just like, we can't keep farming there at that intensity forever.

0:34:44 Thomas: Okay.

0:34:45 Sarah: So I think I want to emphasize, when people think sustainable agriculture, they're thinking 100% environment, and there's actually a lot more factors, there's human factors, um, there's just, can we actually sustain it economically in this area on this crop, that kind of stuff, yeah.

0:34:53 Thomas: Okay, I see. So it's, yeah, not necessarily like the world is ending. It's just different components that you want to be able to sustain for a lengthy period of time.

0:35:10 Sarah: I mean, just, you know, and sustainable, I think, is kind of like the, it's like the old word now, and the new thing we're trying to do is regenerative agriculture, where it's sustainable is like, we can just keep doing this, and regenerative is like, we actually rebuild. So, like, an example of that might be grass-fed livestock, because that does good things for the soil if you can rotate land between crops and growing grass for just livestock, that can do good things, your crop yields are better. Um, so that's an example of a technique that's not just sustainable, but it's also regenerative, yada yada, but you kind of get the idea, they're all kind of pointing in the same direction, uh,

0:35:42 Thomas: I see, so let me ask you this then, what are you most worried about going forward? I mean, obviously, you know, we got climate change and all that, but but in terms of your, what you study and what you do, what are the problems that you, that most worry you or most keep you up at night going forward?

0:35:58 Sarah: The what keeps me up at night is the folks, okay, so we have certain problems in agriculture, and the mainstream agriculture sector has actually been fairly good at addressing a lot of these issues, um, because they've been getting a lot of pressure for a couple decades now. Now, um, you get the sustainable agriculture sector that, number one, doesn't notice that any of that is going on. Uh, number two, there's a lot of great lessons for mainstream ag that they're not taking, because they're like, mainstream ag is evil, and I don't want to learn any of their stuff because then I might be tainted. And, uh, and then the third thing is the tech industry is getting into food, and it's fucking terrifying, uh, because the, the tech ministry is all, it's, you know, it's, it's either software or finance people, basically. That's a symbols manipulation job. Food is a real object.

0:36:45 Sarah: They behave differently. There's no, like, backspace, if you fuck it up with food. And there's also just a really certain kind of, like, neglect of human systems. So again, if you're dealing with anything with actual physical object logistics, you need to have your human systems down tight. Because again, there's no backspace, right? Right. And human systems is just something that the finance and software sectors have no clue exists. And so they don't even know how much they don't know. So having worked in a few projects in that area, it's really kind of like making my hair stand on end a little bit, like, I've had some clients in that area who are great, and they're getting their stuff together. And the ones that are bad are so bad and so well funded, they will never die.

0:37:26 Thomas: Right. It's people, it's like Elon Musk is coming around with a bajillion dollars and thinking he's going to re-engineer everything in the world when it comes to, it is stuff like that where people from another industry are, yeah, yeah.

0:37:37 Sarah: Yeah, it's Tesla with food. It's yeah, Yeah. That's exactly what it is.

0:37:42 Thomas: You said a moment ago too, something that really resonates with me is this paranoia about any sort of corporation or anything that seems like it's, you know, associated with being bad can never be part of a solution for some people. Like, some people just think that way and it doesn't seem

0:37:57 Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, and that's kind of disheartening, because I feel like anything that is truly ambitious and worth doing, you can't do alone now, right? So that's what the artisanal movement is all about. It's small groups of people just doing their own thing, and you're really kind of limited in what you can accomplish. Doing hard stuff takes a lot of people. And I think in some ways, the artisanal movement is actually really cynical, it's like, look, we can't do anything together, why bother, like, there's... there's no point in people trying to work together to achieve goals and it's

0:38:00 Thomas: Right.

0:38:28 Thomas: So, is this the idea of, like, everybody just growing a couple fruits and vegetables on their own or something? Or what's, how do you define the artisanal movement? Hmm.

0:38:29 Sarah: Yeah yeah or just like You, I feel like small is beautiful is kind of the four legs good, two legs bad of food right now, you know, it's, it's a credo that's really easy to remember and just completely inaccurate. Um, and it, it stops us from thinking, okay, like, we need to scale, you need to have food at scale, like... Like, just the fact that stuff is more affordable at scale, that's real. And if you can't deal with it, then you don't give a fuck about poor people. That's all there is to it.

0:38:44 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Right?

0:38:59 Sarah: That's just the way it is.

0:39:01 Thomas: Do you find a lot of this to be tied up in class, you know, in a way that people who, Who have the, have the time and the money to kind of think a certain way about these things are not quite seeing the full picture? Yeah.

0:39:03 Sarah: Yeah, of course. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I think to some extent, kind of the food movement is less about, quote-unquote, healing the world and fixing things. And it's more just about building walled gardens for rich people, which, you know, I just don't feel good about. So that's, that's been a challenge, especially someone who has been really broke for a long time, you know, things are better, now, um, that I've got a business up and going. But having spent so much time broke, uh, you could kind of see exactly how much the food movement actually cared, and it was not a good look. Yeah.

0:39:31 Thomas: Wow.

0:39:41 Thomas: Wow, can you give me an example? I sorry, I keep putting you on the spot, but do you have a, do you have a good example of, of, of anything that you're seeing in, in these movements, where people think this is a great idea, but actually counterintuitively it's not? Do you have anything off the top of your head? Ooh.

0:39:45 Sarah: Sure. Yeah. So farmer's markets, the classic example of, like the best thing ever, right? Oh, they're

0:40:00 Thomas: Farmers market coming in hard on farmers market, who, who, who doesn't love farmers market. I can't wait to hear this take. Do it, let's, let's go. I love it. Okay.

0:40:04 Sarah: The worst. Okay. So, so I'll just kind of give you a scenario. You know, I'm in graduate school, I am taking a full course load, I am also working a job, and I have a daughter that I'm nursing, so, um, you know, everything is time sensitive, right?

So, but farmer's markets, you know, and this is what you're supposed to do if you're a young professional mom, is you're supposed to only feed your baby organic food and all that stuff, and you're like supposed to go to, of farmer's markets and shit, um, well, the farmer's market was in the middle of the day on a Wednesday, on a weekday, when that's when we had child care, so you better be working.

And the, um, food quality at farmer's markets, I know everybody says it's good, and that may depend on your market, but this one, it certainly was not. It was in the middle of the day in the South, and there was no shade, and every, all the food was very hot, and you know, you'd get some peaches, and they looked great, and when you know, 12 hours later, when you woke up in the morning, they'd already turn into brown mush because they've been hot for so long, um,

0:40:13 Thomas: Wow.

0:41:04 Sarah: Yeah, so that was kind of, you know, an experience that I had, and you know, the peaches were overpriced, and they were small, and then they rotted like immediately, and that was like the one day when I was like, okay, I really need to like pull up my shorts on this whole mom thing and just like go get some good food, and then it rots on you, you know, and and

0:41:21 Thomas: I know, and that's the worst. I I can, uh, I can sympathize, I also, I have a one-year-old right now, and uh, yeah, no, it, that, that makes it harder for you, not if you buy something thinking you've got your, your food figured out for the next however many days, and then it's it's just gone.

0:41:23 Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, just to make our life work, we had to get, there are very specific slots in the week that we had go grocery shopping, and the farmer's market was not scheduled around those, so you have to have like not just disposable income but disposable time, and I think that's the thing the food movement really does not respect, is that poor people also don't have time, like especially the working poor, they've always got two or three jobs, um, so the food movement, I really think, is kind of built around like getting a hold of good food that is inaccessible by nature, is like this badge of honor, and that's the way it's supposed to work, like that's what you do to show how much you carry and that you're really into it, and it's such a rich person's game, you know.

0:41:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:42:16 Sarah: It's just bullshit, like it's a status symbol, that's it.

0:42:14 Thomas: That's so true, yeah. Wow.

0:42:19 Sarah: Like, that is why sustainable food in a lot of ways exists right now, is to serve as a status symbol. And if we're building food movements, we're accessing hard to get stuff, serves as, as a status symbol, and that's why we're doing it. And that's what we're building our human systems around. It is not going to work for anybody except for a few very elite people. And so when I say that it's really kind of about building a walled garden so folks can feel good about themselves, that's kind of what I'm getting at there.

0:42:46 Thomas: Yeah, no, I, I think you put that really well, it does seem to, to be this status symbol, where you notice, like, the currency, you know, the kind of the social currency involved with some groups, where it's, if you found something, you know, the harder it was to get something, and the more, you know, then that kind of seems as though you've accomplished something. But I think it makes perfect sense what you're pointing out, which is, well, that's the worst way it should be. It should be, we need to make it so these things are easier. If they're good for the environment, if they're good for, you You know, sustainable agriculture, we need to make sure it's easier to get, not harder.

0:43:13 Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, and just the thing is, like, it's kind of harder to build those systems that actually wrap around everybody. It's hard. And I think, think that's a lot of why we haven't been wanting to do it, is we want to do this artisanal, like, you know, easy to wrap your head around it kind of thing, and that's just not going to exist, and I mean, folks who are into food, and if people want to spend their time getting difficult to reach food, and that's their thing, that's fine, that's a hobby, that's great. You should not have to build your life around getting healthy food to get healthy food, the healthy food should be normal, you know what I mean, um, it shouldn't be like this extra pursuit

0:43:48 Thomas: Right, yeah, it's the same reason I don't blame people who have to shop at Walmart kind of thing. It's like, if you can't afford anything else, I don'T think it's your responsibility to spend more money when you don't have it. That kind of think. Yeah, exactly.

0:43:50 Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And time yeah, so that's, I think that's kind of the thing, is we kind of take that whole burden of making the food system work, and we push it on people who don't have those resources, and it's tremendously just disrespectful, so that's my beef, yeah.

0:44:15 Thomas: Right. So then what do you think we can do? If the answer is not that. What do you think the answer, if anything, is for people like, I don't know, me, for just everyday people who would like to see something change, but not sure what to do.

0:44:22 Sarah: Right.

0:44:32 Sarah: So here's the thing, I think we've kind of been, been told by the sustainable food movement that it is the job of ordinary people like us and consumers to fix it, and I don't think it is, I think it's business owners' job to fix it.

0:44:42 Thomas: All right. So I get to blame other people. I don't have to do anything. I just get to say, hey, everybody else figure this out. Mean, so is it a kind of thing where we need to vote with our dollars somehow, or is this a government fix? What do, what do you thing?

0:44:42 Sarah: Um, that's right, yeah.

0:44:54 Sarah: You know, I don't, it's a government fix, we do have bad agricultural policies, but they don't cause bad agriculture, they just kind of let people who are, you know, not great at it, keep being in the business, it doesn't make people do it badly. Um, and that's another thing, is I feel like the food movements really emphasize, like, oh, we need to, uh, fix policy, and I don't really think a lot of this is policy's fault, actually, it doesn't force people to do stuff wrong. I see so many people doing stuff right in spite of the policy, that I, I just don't think policy is the issue, um, again, it's, it's just businesses getting their shit together, so which is, uh, I don't know if that's the answer anybody's ever looking for, but I really think it's a B2B problem. Um, so like I mentioned, like the, the South could be and should be, I think, in many ways, the breadbasket of the U.S., um, and it's just not, like we grow stuff down here, but it's not a place where you think, oh yeah, um, you know, like the California Central Valley.

0:45:44 Sarah: It's like that, um, but it could be in it should be. Like, we're losing so, so much, um, you know, financial gains and human capital, and just, um, just losing so much in our region because we're not doing that. And a lot of that just kind of comes down to, you know, those are the businesses that operate down here and that's the culture, and the only way it's going to change is folks down here deciding to do it differently. I know that sounds hopeless, but I see so many people down here who are doing it differently, and And I just kind of want to say, you know what, give them time, you know, let them do it.

0:46:16 Thomas: Right. Yeah, it kind kind of gives, you the listener the impression that there's not really anything they should be doing. Unless, I guess, unless you own an agriculture business,

0:46:23 Sarah: Yeah, well, I think that's the thing is, yeah, that the food movement has pushed the burden of fixing business problems onto the consumer. And I don't think that the consumer movement has done that. I just don't think that is really appropriate. There is a certain amount of stuff you can do voting with your dollars, but all that does is create demand. It doesn't create fulfillment of that demand. So, you know, the demand has been there for years and businesses just kind of need to get their shit together and fulfill it. And you know folks may not like that answer, but it just takes time, and if you really want to go all out, start your own business and actually educate yourself first and don't start a fucking craft brewery, like the world has plenty of problems and there aren't enough brands of craft beer is not one of them, so yeah.

0:47:00 Thomas: Especially in Sacramento. Oh my God. I,

0:47:04 Sarah: I mean craft beer is fine and all, but that's not like what the world is suffering from right now, right? So um,

0:47:04 Thomas: Uh, wow. Hey, people just want to drink beer, I think. That's the, but craft breweries are not saving the environment.

0:47:09 Sarah: Yeah. And then again, that's fine, it's like food, like if if that's your thing, they're really not. Yeah. Um, so that's, that's kind of the thing is like, I see a lot of folks kind of get into food entrepreneurship for really basically lifestyle related reasons. And they make a lot noise about how they're saving the earth while they're at it. And you're like, no, this is just your hobby business. And that's that's okay. If that's what you want to do, but please don't act like you're saving the world while you're doing it. You would be doing things very differently if that's what you're about.

0:47:33 Thomas: Hmm. Wow. This is strange. I don't know. Yeah, now I don't know what to do. Okay. Well, Well, I guess we just have to wait and hope you fix everything. I don't know. Hope somebody fixes it.

0:47:37 Sarah: So yeah, I mean, that's, that's kind of a big part of what I'm pivoting my business towards is I have been consulting towards folks who kind of already started their business. And it just kind of turns out that they've already made some key decisions about what they're doing and why. And there's not a whole lot that you can add as a consultant at that point. So I'm kind of pivoting into, you know, like podcasting. I'm writing a book. I just sent out the proposal today to an agent and just kind of getting the word out there that like, like, hey, businesses have a big role in this, so let's talk about how to achieve that. There's already been some great publications out there about how to do it. Again, I think a lot of the answer is going to be actually people-oriented. It's going to be businesses treating people right, because when you do that, a lot of other things fall into place.

0:48:26 Thomas: Well, maybe I'm a big government liberal, but I just think that when it comes to making businesses do stuff that where the incentives aren't already lining up, that I feel like regulation is really the only instrument you have. But

0:48:37 Sarah: Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, like California, I think that's, you know, there are many pieces to why California is successful, and I think regulations is one of them. If you are going to farm in California, they have standards, and if you don't meet them, you're out. And I think that has not been bad for California. You come out here to North Carolina, where we have no standards, and the farmers act like it, you know. And it's, there's, I think folks here are afraid to have regulations because they've been told that it drives business away. And you're like, listen, if that's how it worked, California, we'd be poor. And we'd be rich, so, yeah.

0:48:38 Thomas: Yeah, right.

0:49:08 Sarah: I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but in terms of just like, like, the demand is already there. Like, the demand's already there. Businesses already have every incentive in the world to do things a certain way, and they're just not doing them. So it's not like passing laws is going to do anything, at least not out here, because like, enforcement agencies are terrified to actually enforce laws. A lot of it is just, again, businesses getting their shit together. And for me, my part in that, I think is just kind of getting the word out that there is such a thing as businesses having their shit it together, um, because I think the reason they get away with not doing that is just because folks don't know any better. So again, we focus so much on the environmental part and not on the people part, and I think once you do the people part, everything else falls into place. So let's talk about that, yeah.

0:49:07 Thomas: All right. Well, that's a great time to talk about your podcast, Farm to Taber. As we mentioned, you mentioned you've got some book proposals out. Is there anything else you want to plug while we're at it?

0:49:55 Sarah: Uh, That's, that's it for now. I've got a Twitter, but, uh, if you're listening to this, you may have found it already, I don't Um, yeah. What the podcast is, Farm to Taber, it's on iTunes now, which is very exciting, and Uh, it's good.

0:50:05 Thomas: Oh, yeah, I'll certainly tag you. Yeah, yeah. The big time. All right, Dr. Sarah Taber, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it so much and check out the podcast, everybody.

0:50:13 Sarah: Yeah. Thanks for having me, yeah.

0:50:47 Thomas: Wanna thank my guest, that was very fascinating, I learned a lot. I guess I'm still a little skeptical on whether or not, you know, government can help solve some of these things. Seems like when you need businesses to do something as, as I already mentioned on the show, I guess, uh, and consumers aren't quite able to make that happen. Seems like regulation is the way to go, but she's the expert. And I don't know, maybe there's, there's more to look into that.

I do definitely Totally agree that there's too much burden placed on the individual with things like this and that we really, when it comes to certain issues, some issues, you know, maybe, maybe we can do something if we all, if we'll put our minds together, if we all change our behavior as consumers, but when it comes to like water usage and things like this, where businesses are really the ones doing all of it, you know, like really doing the lion's share, 90, 95%, there's not much we can do as individuals. Of course, we can try to advocate for public policy or vote with our dollars, but I do think a lot of the stress, a lot of social stress is put on to people and parents and stuff when it comes to food. And And I think maybe some of that's unfair, and I thought Sarah's, Sarah's insights on that were right on, and really fascinating. So, alright, well, that's the show. Hey, please support the show.

Go to patreon.com slash seriouspod, join the ranks of people who make this show happen, and, of course, gain access to bonus stuff from time to time. Also, seriouspod.com support is another way you can go. Seems as though Patreon has figured their stuff out for now, I, I can't believe they scared the bejesus out of us. I guess it's almost been a year, it's been nine months ago, with those whole changes, and the, I, I guess they got gun-shy and never really did anything.

0:52:27 Thomas: So Patreon for now seems to be a good way to go as well. But either way, if you want to make the show happen, that's how you can do it. And also another thing you can doing is tell someone about the show if you found an episode interesting, and call in to that voicemail number. A couple weeks now, we'll have another voicemmail episode. And that's when I get to get an indication of what is really capturing your interest, what things you might wanna hear more about, what you might want to hear more interviews about, uh, always open to those kinds of emails and tips and comments and voicemails. So, alright, well, that's it for me. I will see you guys next week.