SIO147: Callie Wright on ScarJo and Nanette

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Is episode 147, I'm your host Thomas Smith, and I am so pleased to bring you an interview with Callie Wright, she is the co-host along with Ari Stillman of the Gaytheist Manifesto podcast, it's a fantastic podcast that I highly recommend. Callie is jumping on to talk about a few things, the Scarlett Johansson controversy regarding trans inclusion and casting and stuff like that, as well as some surrounding issues, and then we're also going to talk the comedy Special Nannette by Hannah Gadsby. It's kinda weird to issue a spoiler alert for a comedy special, but it's kinda necessary in this case, if you haven't seen that, I highly recommend you do, but that's in the second half of the recording, so you don't have to stop here or anything, but, yeah, I really do recommend you check that out. Gaytheist Manifesto.

0:01:30 Thomas: Callie, how you doing?, oh,

0:01:32 Callie: Fantastic, my friend. How are you?

0:01:35 Thomas: I am good, I mean, I think we're both a little, you know, we're both a lot of emotions from the thing we just watched that we're going to talk about later, but other than that, doing great, how have you been?, it's been far too long, that's awesome, alright, well, you probably are, yeah, you're probably are., I have actually several friends who do roller derby, it's more than I would have ever thought, like Like I just randomly have like all these friends who do roller derby. So it sounds like a good time, but I do see them very bruised up at times. So

0:01:44 Callie: Yeah. It has been. I've been busy, but in ways that are better for my mental health, which is nice. You know, still doing the podcast, obviously. I have been doing roller derby, and I am actually about to try out for a team, which was pretty awesome. Celeste is perpetually worried that I am going to hurt myself, and like for all I know, I might. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

0:02:20 Callie: Yeah.

0:02:20 Thomas: Yeah,

0:02:20 Callie: One of our more common conversations at this point is like, where the hell did that bruise come from? Like, oh, it was this time I was trying to do this thing. I fell on my ass. It's not a big deal. It's fine.

0:02:25 Thomas: I think so that's good. I'm glad to hear it. So much we wanted to talk about. Let's first talk about some big news, which is Scarlett Johansson playing Harriet Tubman, I think, is the role that I've seen. She's got... Did you see that meme? It's just...

0:02:43 Callie: Took me a second. I was like, wait, no, that's, oh. It's the internet thing. Got it. Right. It took my a second, sorry, I'm slow.

0:02:48 Thomas: Yeah, the internet happened. Yeah, she... The internet cast her in all kinds of iconic roles, which I thought was hilarious. But that was something I would love to hear your thoughts on, you know, talk about trans trans inclusion and inclusion in general and the state of Hollywood and that kind of thing. What are your thoughts?

0:02:55 Callie: Yes.

0:03:06 Callie: Yeah, I mean, you know, my thing is obviously all things being equal, any actor should be able to play any role that they can play well, right? Um But all things are not equal, as I, I think we can all agree, and so the, the problem is, is that it seems to be the exception rather than the rule that trans folks get cast to play trans roles. And, um, you know, I, I try really hard to stay in my lane when it comes to comparing race things with gender things because there are parallels and there are differences, right? And I don't want to conflate the two too hard, but there's even the term transface where you have cis people playing trans roles. And my problem, I mean, my problem starts with the art because I've seen cis people play trans roles and it just never seems believable to me, and I am willing to admit that may just be my bias because I know what's going on going into it.

But I've also seen trans actors play trans roles and I'm like, oh my god, I see myself there. And, uh, and that may have to do with the writing as well, um, because, you know, actors, I mean, they literally just, I mean, sometimes they have creative control, but I mean usually it's you take what's on the script and you do your best version

0:03:35 Thomas: Sure.

0:04:22 Callie: Of it, right, and make it the most believable. So, so they're not even necessarily the most creative minds at work. So obviously, yeah.

0:04:28 Thomas: That's a really interesting Point. You know, what about the idea of cis people writing for trans people? And it would be unrealistic to assume that, okay, we're all going to only write ourselves in everything. That would be a horrible way to do art. But that's another component I guess I hadn't thought of, which is, you know, can you really, really write about an experience that you have no access to in a way that will be compelling to someone who has actually lived it.

0:04:56 Callie: And I mean, obviously you can do research if you have, you know, trans friends, trans family, that kind of stuff, like that gives you a little more access than someone else might have. But so the example that I always use is one of my favorite movies is a movie called Boy Meets Girl. And it's sort of a romantic comedy about a trans woman and her best friend in the South in this like really backwards sort of Southern town, and there are things in there that I'm like, okay, she either told the writers that that had to go in there, or there was a writer, producer, someone who was really close to a trans person, or someone who was actually trans. Just little stuff like, oh, I'm gonna step behind the blinds here, I'm going to take my pills and then measure to see how much my boobs have grown, like just little stuff like that that like, I don't know that the average cis person would even think of that as like a way to to sort of communicate a thing that some trans folks experience.

0:05:11 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Right.

0:05:51 Callie: Um, and just, I mean, obviously again, this might just be my bias in the conversations that I have had, but like, I have talked to so few cis people that I feel really get it. That it's just harder for me to trust that that can be done right.

Um, and then there, it also goes a little deeper, and I didn't originate this idea, but I read someone who said this and I agree with it completely, I think it was Jen Richards who created the YouTube series Her Story, which is one of those places where I see a trans woman in a leading role playing a trans role, and I, even though aside from being trans, I don't necessarily have a ton in common with this character, it was one of the times I felt like, oh my gosh, I am watching myself here, because she's experiencing all of these things that I've experienced.

And what she says, the subtle, the subtle projection is that trans people are inherently playing characters because that's what our cultural narrative tells us to begin with. So when you cast cis people in in trans roles, in a way you're feeding into that narrative that a trans person is a character, is a costume, is is something constructed and not who a person inherently is. And, um, you know, I, I am not smart or deep enough to have originated that idea, but it really resonates with me because that's so much what I see. Like, I have a friend at work who, uh, when she came out to one of her parents in particular, this person just kept going on and on, and it was like, wait a minute, it, you think I'm telling you I'm a drag queen, not that I'm

0:06:04 Thomas: Right?

0:06:53 Thomas: Interesting. Oh, interesting.

0:07:30 Callie: Just a woman, and that was his entire idea of this, was like, oh my gosh, so you're gonna spend five hours in makeup wearing these super gaudy dresses and these huge wigs all the time, like, I don't want that for my kid, and that makes me really uncomfortable, just had no conception of what this actually meant. And I just, I don't think we're there yet as a society to where people who aren't super closely connected or who are trans themselves know enough to believably do that.

0:07:32 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. And, you know, one thing I saw that I wanted to ask you about, because I really just had no, no real answer for it, was in response to this casting choice, I saw some, I forget who it was, some publication posted a list, like, here's 10 trans actresses who, you know, would be great for this role. And one of the actors that was in the list chimed in and was like, hey, I don't really like being referred to as a trans actress or whatever, you know, the wording was trans actor. And I was like oh crap, that's kind of a, how do you look at that minefield? I mean, is there a tension between, okay, yes, obviously it makes sense. I would think that you should cast a trans person in that role makes sense to me. But then there's on the other side of it. Are there are there is there an impulse and a desire to to not have that label even to just be like, I just want to be an actor? I don't you know what I mean?

0:08:31 Callie: Yeah.

0:08:57 Thomas: Like, of thing? Hmm. Is

0:08:57 Callie: No, I totally get it because that's a tension that I've sort of started to feel in my life now. And I think it might be a certain measure of privilege because like, um, you know, now that I am where I am in life, I am most of of the time read as a woman, and that is who I actually am. And so it's easier for me to leave that aside and just be. And I found myself having a compulsion to just sort of like, I don't really care for this situation to have anything to do with me being trans. And when you're an artist, particularly an actor, or I mean, I can see it, you know, if you're a musician, a painter, any of that kind of stuff, I want to be defined first by my art.

Not because of this particular life circumstance of mine. And I don't begrudge people that at all. It's hard to see how this works out in a practical sense, but like, obviously my, my go-to is like, well, I mean, what do you know about this person and how they present themselves? Right. Do they present ourselves as like, yes, I am. I am owning my place as a trans member of this community? Or, you know, am I stepping away from that? And like, I just want to be an actor who, uh, you knows, plays really good broody characters. You know what I mean? Like I, um,

0:09:35 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah,

0:10:13 Callie: I can see, I can all sides of that. And I think, um. And then this sort of goes back to a bigger question that I have, and this is information that I've never really been able to see that that there's been access to, uh, because this isn't anything that anyone has to put out. And because a lot of times the question is like, well, how many trans actors are there? What if we need someone with star power to sell this movie?

0:10:35 Callie: And, uh、 you know, someone who is someone who istrans doesn't fit that bill. And so my next question is, like, did you even try? Uh, Because it's not like there are no big name trans people. Uh, did we even try? And I don't think, I mean, unless, you know, the producers come out and say, "Oh, well here's a list of 12 people we offered the part to and they didn't want it so we had to go another way," you know, and I mean that's not generally how those folks operate, right? So like, I don't know if it's reasonable to expect that, but I think that's an important piece of information too, because you know, if they come out and say like, "No, we really wanted a trans person for this role, but all the auditions sucked," or "We had offered it to five people and they all turned it down, so we had to go with this person," I mean, that would obviously change the conversation for me too. But I don't know that there's a way to know if that ever happened.

0:10:14 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Right, right. Yeah yeah. Right yeah. Yeah yeah.

0:11:21 Callie: But generally speaking, when these kinds of things happen, there seems to be this refrain of sort of pearl-clutching ignorance. "Oh gosh, I had no idea. Let's have a conversation." And then it happens again. And it just happens repeatedly and repeatedly. And especially with the situation with Scarlett Johansson that made the whole thing just really and truly point out how tone deaf they were. Um, so somebody went to to her publicist and was like, "You know, how do you respond to this criticism?" And she's like, "Well, I'll refer you to the publicist of," and she had listed like six or seven other cis actors who had played trans roles, and it's like, oh, you thought this was okay because a bunch of cis people gave these movies awards and they made a lot of money.

0:12:03 Thomas: Huh. Yeah...

0:12:11 Callie: Like just paying zero attention to the context that these issues exist in. Like, and at this point there is no excuse. Like I am all for someone like, you know what, maybe this is honest ignorance here. Maybe they just don't know. And you can't know what you just don't know, right? Like I always want to try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but these conversations have happened often enough that like there is no way they have avoided this conversation. They are ignoring it at this this point, and I think that's something that has to be taken into consideration too. Well.

0:12:40 Thomas: Yeah Yeah, that's lots of great thoughts there, and I've thought the same thing when it comes to what you talk about. There's this difficult- I think it is a a major concern, uh, you know, and and I'm not saying we need to have all the sympathy in the world for these, like, you know, bajillionaires who are producing all these films or anything, but from a business standpoint there's always that question of, well, we need a big name, we got to sell this movie, and like realistically will you get your movie made if you just have people nobody happens to know. And now you point out, of course, there are plenty of big name, uh, trans actors, actors, actresses, whoever. But like, that is always a concern. And then, then, then I always think, like, isn't that kind of self-perpetuating? Like if you're always only going with these familiar faces, these same stars, then that's, who's going to be stars, you know, like how, how do you ever get out of that?

0:13:32 Thomas: You know, like if you, if you don't really give people a chance to shine, you know, and then, and then you see something like Black Panther where finally that. And it's this wild success. And it's like, you know, like, hey, maybe this reasoning you had before that, like, oh, we can't do that. Cause you know, it's a business thing. We just could never, uh, you know, just pure business decision, nothing to do with politics or anything. Um, maybe that's not necessarily true.

0:13:57 Callie: Right, and that's, I am far from being an expert on the intricacies of the movie business, so I don't want to present this as my argument, but it's one that I've heard and it makes sense to me, is that like there are a lot of people who make decisions on that who really don't really know what they're doing, and they don't understand what makes a movie sell, because I mean, how many movies, movies with big name actors, have been total flops because they sucked.

0:14:04 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:14:22 Callie: Right. And like, if you make a story that really and truly touches people, mean, obviously we can all point to movies that we think are fantastic that never, that never reached an audience. And there's, you know, this sort of like lightning in a bottle that like X factor that nobody can really point out what, what it is that made this flop when it was great or what made it, you know?

0:14:34 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I mean neither of us can pretend like we would not, you know, if, if anyone could know what that formula was, they'd be, you know, a genius bajillionaire, like if they did the formula of, write, uh, something that unknown actors are in and it blows up, it happens, but like being able to predict that would be really difficult, yeah.

0:14:50 Callie: Right. Right we're Right, and so like I said, not an expert on the intricacies of the movie business, but like I know enough to not buy that as the primary excuse. Oh,

0:15:01 Thomas: Hmm. In what way do you mean? Because, like, I'm, I'm, I'm willing to believe that producers believe that, like, they might think that, like, "Oh no, we're never," they might legitimately think, like, "If you don't put Scarlett Johansson in this, it's just not gonna make enough money, I'm not gonna back it." But I don't know whether or not that, like, they might be wrong, you know what I mean? Like the distinction there, like, which, which, which which thing are you saying?

0:15:31 Callie: For sure Yeah, whether they, whether they're using as an excuse, or they actually believe it. And, and I don't know, I'm sure there's probably some of both, um, know, like I don't pay enough attention to the movie business to present myself as AS any expert with strong opinions on, like, on that particular argument because that really gets into like the business of movie making, um, so I, I think there is both, but I, I mean regardless, I, I feel like, I feel like you can see enough of, like, you know, this guy was in the biggest movie last summer and no one watched the next movie he was in, or nobody's ever heard of these people and this movie made a gajillion dollars.

0:15:35 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

0:16:12 Callie: I feel like there's enough of that to, like, if that's your excuse, I can feel comfortable saying that, like, that's probably a wrong thing to make the decision, like, whichever your motivation happens to be, and you know, I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong, like I said, not the expert on the intricacies of the movie business, but

0:16:22 Thomas: Yeah. No, I, I, I totally, I totally see what you're saying. It makes sense to me. And I also, another one of my favorite tweets I saw on this back in the day, I think it was after Wonder Woman or something, was like, or it might've been after, you know, that Superman Batman piece of crap flopped, or I think at full, well, maybe it didn't. Anyway, one of the shitty, uh, superhero things that I don't care about, um, like one of the two white guy ones, and I think someone tweeted like, "Oh man, I wonder if this is it for white superheroes," like I just don't think it's a viable thing.

0:16:59 Thomas: You know, like nobody ever says that. Nobody ever says that when there's a shitty flop of a superhero movie that's two white guys. It's always, you know, well, we tried to make one with women and I didn't do so well, so we can never do that again, yeah.

0:16:48 Callie: Right right yeah You're exactly right, and and the other thing too is like, and you knows, this is enough of a, I guess, sort of a niche thing that like I don't know if there, there are big name movie producers that understand this. Uh, I feel like they should, but like doing that and doing it right is such a low bar to set that someone who did that and did it right, on a far enough scale, there would be legions of us evangelizing it. You know what I mean?

0:17:42 Thomas: Yeah.

0:17:42 Callie: Like I would be flogging, like if, if there was a good trans movie made with good trans, I I mean that the movie Boy Meets Girl that I was just talking about, like everyone in my life knows how good that movie is and how much I love it. And I was super grateful to actually have the lead actress on the podcast, which was awesome.

0:17:43 Thomas: Oh. Wow. Yeah.

0:18:01 Callie: But like there are legions of us who would be evangelizing that movie, watching it 10 times in theaters, telling all of our friends if someone took just the barest of effort to get it right.

0:18:07 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I always think that it's totally true. I always think, and again, I mean, maybe it is some movie business thing that I, you know, I don't understand, but I always think that, um, I, I, not necessarily just with trans issues, but with any issue where it's like trying to, you know, it's another white dude or whatever trying to write for whoever, and it's, it's like, okay, I get it. But how, is it that hard to like, maybe co-write something? You know, just be like, "Hey, how about we write this together?" And I get, you know, is that that hard? Or, as you said earlier, like a producer, or for this movie, which I, you know, admittedly, I don't know that much about, but would it be that hard for it to have a trans actor play a trans character? And then there's also Scarlett Johansson in some other role. You know what I mean? Like, how hard is that? I don't know.

0:19:00 Callie: Right. I mean, and hire a big name director or producer, you know what I mean? Like, like, like put Steven Spielberg on the thing and plaster his name all over it. Let him be the name that sells it. Like, I just, I don't, I Don't see that it has to be that complicated. Like maybe I'm, you know, maybe I'M just too ignorant to get it, but like, I just, and I feel like there are plenty of other options.

0:19:04 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

0:19:23 Callie: Uh, and like I said, I feel like that is the after the fact excuse. When, when they, when they get this backlash, because Oh God, what was the guy's name? Matt Bomer, I think. Mark Ruffalo. It was a movie where there was a cis guy who was playing not just a trans woman, but a trans women sex worker. And there was this whole backlash. And I think it was Mark Ruffalo was like, oh my gosh, I had no idea, but let's please have a conversation. And I mean, nothing ever came of it. You know what I mean?

0:19:28 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah right.

0:19:54 Callie: That's the familiar familiar refrain is that pearl clutching and, oh my gosh, I had no idea. I feel like we have definitively crossed the point where ignorance is an excuse when you're talking. Because I feel like there's got to be that conversation in the back office, around the water cooler, inside the writer's room, like, oh man, the last time they did this, there were lots of people who were really pissed off about it. Maybe we should figure something out here and have a conversation. But like, I feel like that has to happen, you know? And, and maybe, maybe that's cynical of me. Like maybe there is still that level of ignorance, but like I just, I get the feeling at this point that we are beyond ignorance and people are just deliberately ignoring that argument because they don't care.

0:20:37 Thomas: Yeah, that that must be really frustrating if, if the reaction constantly is, "Oh, okay, well, let's talk about it." You don't talk about it and it doesn't change anything, you know, like, "Okay, well, then nothing happened." So yeah I could.

0:20:50 Callie: Yeah. And that's to sidetrack slightly. I mean that, that parallels with like, so I had to sit down with a conservative Ohio state lawmaker when he said he was going to try to do an Ohio bathroom bill. And he was like, I'd love to hear a comment.

0:20:51 Thomas: Oh, Yeah, I think you told me about this at some point, but it must not have been on a show. So good, yeah, I'm excited to hear the story.

0:21:07 Callie: Yeah, it was probably when we were drunk at the arcade and I was yelling at you. But he was, like, oh, I'm very interested in input from the trans community because I don't want to hurt anyone. And we sat down and the conversation was really frustrating, but he seemed to be listening. And, like every time I would say, oh gosh, I had no idea. Oh, wow, I didn't know that. That. And I was like, I don't know that I feel good about this, but I feel not terrible about this. And then I talked to other people he had had sit downs with and he did the exact same thing. He was hearing it for the first time every time. Oh, he's not listening. He's doing this to say that he did, not because he actually cares. And that's the vibe that I get in this situation.

0:21:12 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:21:23 Thomas: So The end result of that was pretty much nothing. The end of that story.

0:21:52 Callie: Yeah. I don't know if the conversations that we had had any effect, because it was just a few, few months later that North Carolina came out, was like, "Oh my God, you're not going to believe how much money this law cost us." And, like, cynically, I think that's probably what made, okay, maybe I'll just drop this. I don't know that, like, conversations with the trans community, or maybe they did. Maybe, maybe me and the group of folks that talked to him should take some of the credit, but, um, just the vibe that I got from him, I, I think it was really figuring out how much money it cost North Carolina that, that sealed it.

0:22:25 Thomas: Okay, yeah, well, um, what do you think about, uh, going over to our other topic we wanted to talk about, or is there anything you want to put a finishing touch on? Awesome, Well, uh, I just happened to watch, uh, I saw a lot of people recommending Nanette by, uh, it's a standup special called "Okay" by Hannah Gadsby. Uh, you know, I wasn't familiar with, with her, but I saw so many people recommending it and it seemed really compelling. Like, people were very into it. So I said, "Oh, I'm going to give it a try." And I watched it and I was absolutely floored. And so, since we already had this scheduled, I was curious if you had seen it, and you watched it, I just want to know, what is your reaction to this? Because I found it really moving.

0:22:33 Callie: Now I'm in, let's do it.

0:23:06 Callie: So I did on a couple of levels and you know, there were a couple OF things in there that made me a little uncomfortable. Um, you know? Cause, cause there are some times where she brings trans people into the conversation. Uh, and I'm not sure she has a full grasp on trans stuff and it's not enough to make me be like, Oh, that was terrible. She's a bad person.

0:23:13 Thomas: Hmm.

0:23:28 Callie: You, um, but the context is that, you know, as a masculine looking lesbian woman, she gets mistaken, she gets mistaken for a man a lot, and she, like, "Well, I'm not trans," but, and, like, I just felt like that was kind of an unnecessary thing to bring trans people into the conversation. Um, and, you know, there's, there's some things that, like, just completely leaving out that non-binary people exist, which is disappointing, but not surprising, because nobody realizes non-disciplinary people exist. But what it really gets at, guess, a lot of this discussion is going to be spoilery, because there's some of this that was really moving to me because I didn't understand the context, yeah, right.

0:24:04 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Let me let me say then. Yeah let me let me, I forgot. Yeah, let me, spoiler alert, I think you really should, well, I think you should watch it, but maybe I don't know, Callie, are you going to convince me that it, that, that people shouldn't watch it, but, you know, I would recommend it, and if you want to not have spoilers, because it does kind of come out of nowhere, you know, the first half is one thing and then it takes a hard turn, uh, so if you want to watch it you should watch it, uh, we're gonna have to spoil some stuff, but, uh, okay, there's our spoiler alert, uh, pause and come back to it if you want, okay.

0:24:35 Callie: Yeah, So I would recommend it with caveats because like I said, the way that she brings trans people in the conversation makes me a little uncomfortable, but, so, I mean, basically, the whole bit is, "I'm doing a stand-up special about why I'm not doing comedy anymore." And the reasons that she lays out for not doing comedy anymore are a lot of the reason that I'm actually kind of uncomfortable with stand-out comedy in general.

0:24:41 Thomas: Interesting.

0:25:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:07 Callie: She articulated it in a way that I really have never been able to.

0:25:14 Callie: Because, for me, it seems impossible to go through a standup set mindset without feeling slightly attacked in some way, because people always use gender as a joke and it's very often punching down in one way or another. Uh, Oh, this guy looks like a girl. That's funny. This girl looks like it. Guy that's funny, this person's androgynous. That's funny. I'm a trans person and it funny to be trans because that's gross. Like it seems like it's just impossible to avoid stuff like that. And it's kind of spoiled me on like, if I don't know who this person is, if they're not a friend of mine, like I'm, it's probably just not a space for me. Probably not welcome here. Um, I find myself feeling a lot like a joy kill when I explain that to people. So I usually just don't say anything. And I just like, yeah, I'm probably not going to watch that standup special.

0:25:59 Callie: I'm probably not going to go to the comedy club. Uh, and it's not even that I think other people shouldn't, it's just not for me, which is fine. But there are a lot of things that she describes that are things I identify with as a public speaker and a podcaster. Because a criticism that I have received about the show is that sometimes it gets really heavy and dark and it's kind of tough to listen to because of that. And sometimes it's meant as a critique or a criticism. Sometimes it's just meant as, like, "Well, this is how your show is."

And I don't have a response to that other than, like, yeah, sometimes it's meant to be because that's the experience. Right. But when it's, have felt pressured to, to be funny about situations and, uh, like mega spoiler alert, I'm going to spoil one of the bits here. So like, if you've listened to get an idea, but you're like really worried about spoilers. This is really the time to pause. So she spends the first little bit of it telling sort of, sort of retelling like, Oh, here's how I took some of these things from my life and work them into comedy bits. And

0:26:36 Thomas: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Right.

0:27:09 Callie: Then later on, she's like, "But this is the rest of the story that I couldn't tell because I had to end with a punchline. I couldn't end with how the story actually ended." And she tells the story about this guy at the bus stop who was going to beat her up because she, because this guy thought that, uh, it was, it was a guy hitting on his girlfriend, and found out, like, "Oh no, this is just, like, sort of a masculine looking lesbian," and, like, that's the joke, right? But the part she couldn't finish was that, and then he beat the shit out of me because yeah, yeah,

0:27:38 Thomas: Yeah. Like, and then he came back and said, you know, like, "Oh wait, you're still," because there's so much homophobia where she's from, uh, he essentially thought it was okay since she's gay to just beat the shit out of her. It's really really striking, really shocking, uh, um, part of the special. What yeah,

0:27:55 Callie: Yeah, well, and, um, God, I'm probably going to cry a lot through this just because that's who I am as a person. But, um, and part of this goes back to the artistry and her storytelling, because she knows exactly how to deliver an impact line. Like, like what I know, what I've read about, like, effective of storytelling, she nails it, but, like, also it's just one of the realest things I've ever seen a human being say on stage, um, and she just comes out with it, he beat the shit out of me, and I mean, I immediately just, I lost it, and I, like, I had to, I had a rewind, like, I just, I loss it, and I didn't hear the next, like, minute of what she was saying.

And, and so she talks about the way that she has to wrap her story in punchlines and leave so much of it out. And that so much of being thought of as being funny is being self-deprecating. And what that really is, is humiliation, because, you know, you have to talk badly about yourself because that's seen as vulnerability, and that makes people like you. Um, but that's not empowerment.

And, uh, she says, you know, her stories are too important to frame like that. And, and, like, that's something that I feel very viscerally, because that's, I feel that way so often when I'm writing a talk, because, because, like, honestly, lately, the only thing that I've wanted to get up on a stage and say is, "I can't fucking trust men anymore."

0:28:13 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I'm

0:29:27 Callie: Because of the things that I have experienced, the things I have seen, the thing that have happened in our community. If you're a man and I don't know you, I am fucking scared of you. And that's just what's real. Real. But if I get up on stage and say that without giving a ton of context and explaining myself and apologizing for it, no one's going to listen to me. I have to find some way to make that funny somehow, or I have to find some way to make that about me, or I have to say like, oh, I feel this way, but I don't like that about myself. Because that's when the vulnerability really happens. Not that I'm expressing these feelings. I can't get up in front of people and and say, I'm fucking scared of men and I feel validated in that feeling. And I'm right to feel that way because of all of these things I've seen and experienced.

0:30:15 Callie: I can't do that. And I have to constantly make those calculations when I'm writing a talk. When am I going to lose the crowd? You know, am I gonna lose, like, it gets too dark and I got to turn around and I got, make it funny again for just a second before I get real again. And that's a skill that I've had to cultivate because, because if, especially if I'm in front of an audience who doesn't know me, uh, if I'm in an atheist convention, I think at this point, at least most folks have a general idea of who I am. If they don't listen to the show, they at least sort of know that, like, you know, vulnerability is my thing. And I tell stories about being trans and how hard that can be sometimes, but, like, how awesome it is to be real about who you are and that kind of stuff. And so you feel like there's at least a little bit more being receptive, but, but, like, at a certain point, they're like, "Oh, my God, this is so fucking bleak."

0:31:01 Callie: But like when people are asking me questions and they're they're doing the well, I'm just asking questions. How, how does, how does you being trans make other people feel in your life? And like, I just want to grab a hold of somebody. And I just like I want you to to have been there when I was sitting in my grandma's living living room and explaining to her who I was and being about 80% sure that my grandma and I weren't going to have a relationship after that conversation because I decided to be honest about who I was.

I want you to be there in that moment when all I was doing was being honest about myself and I had to go into that conversation knowing that like before this, I was maybe the favorite grandkid, the only one who in my teenage years made an effort to go hang out with my grandma, who went to church with her after I wasn't Christian anymore because I just wanted to hang out with my grandma. We had that kind of relationship. And when I decided to be honest with her about who I was, that was the time where all of that was at risk and all of that was likely to be over after that conversation.

I want you to be there in that room and understand what that felt like for me. And then ask me how me being trans affects the other people in my life. Like, what a fucked up question to ask somebody, but that's their ignorance, right?

0:32:37 Callie: You can't know what you can't, and I have to feel compassion for that person. And I want to feel compassion for that person. It's this dueling side of my personality. Like, I want to understand where someone's coming from, they've never met a trans person before that they know of, they were in, you know, the middle of Alabama, you know, where, you know, being Republican the wrong way gets you kicked out of the house, you know.

I mean, I can't expect that person to be an expert on the intricacies of gender, but like I'm also not wrong to be really, really pissed off to have to, to repeatedly explain, explain why I'm a fucking human being, like to justify my humanity constantly, and then to have to measure my explanation of that and always be thinking of the feelings of the person who's on the other end of this conversation, even though it doesn't really have anything to do with them, and I'm expected to to be gracious and to be funny and to be self-deprecating and I can be those things. And I'm not being disingenuous when I'm those things, but I am definitely pressured to be those things when I certainly don't fucking feel like being those things." And

0:33:56 Callie: That's really what this brought up for me.

0:34:05 Callie: I've been on this journey lately where I've trying to do things more for me, right? I spend a lot of time on podcasts, podcast, spend a lot of time doing podcasting, public speaking, and just, you know, having conversations with people, putting myself out there as a person, like, you know, if you have questions about trans stuff, I'm the one to come to, because some people aren't comfortable having those conversations, and that's okay for them, but I am comfortable having Those conversations, so please come to me, because I am a person of privilege, aside from being trans, I make a decent amount of money, I've got a solid place to live, supportive family for the most most part, supportive friends, solid job where I don't have to worry about, you know, being who I am. So like, aside from being trans, I'm kind of the apex of privilege, right? Um, so I'm in a position where I can do those things and it's relatively safe for me to do those things, at least physically and even mostly emotionally.

0:34:57 Callie: Um, uh, but I, I've, I've been on a real rollercoaster lately with mental health for lots of reasons, And it's just because of how terrible the world is sometimes. But also because I think being that person was taking more of a toll on me than I immediately realized, like the cause and effect weren't close enough for me to recognize that they were related. And I don't want to stop doing those things, but I want to add things into my life that are more for me.

And so I started going to this open roller derby practice because I thought like, I want to be an athlete. I want to be in shape physically. And I've heard it's a great place for friends. It's explicitly trans inclusive. It'S like the gayest sport on the planet. So like, You, it's decent shot, I'm going to go there and people don't really care about me being queer and me being trans. What they care about is, do you show up? Do you skate well? Do you try hard? You have a good attitude, you treat people well, like that's the stuff that counts, right? And like, in a perfect world, that's the stuff that should count. And there are a lot of ways in which I'm a very confident person.

There are lots of ways in which I am not a confident person, and when I'm in a room where I'm comfortable, I can be the life of the party. I can, you know, everybody in the room's a friend, I'm mingling, going from person to person, I know how to end a conversation and go to a different room, make a different person, to make sure that I talk with everybody in the room without making people feel excluded, like social butterfly, right? When I met a room where I'm comfortable, where I know I'm among friends, but in a new environment, I am scared out of my mind constantly.

0:35:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:30 Callie: Uh, and I don't know that that's a thing people realize about me because people don't generally see me in those environments. And I went and people were nice to me. And I figured out that I was better at a lot of these things than I imagined I was. And I started to find a sense of confidence that I didn't even realize I was missing. And it's like this constant, like, oh my gosh, I'm going to try this thing. I don't know if I can do it.

Oh my gosh. I'm, I may be not good at it, but I can do it. It wasn't the prettiest thing in the world, but I pulled it off, and having that constantly has been so good for me. And I think a lot of times when people do that kind of stuff, we're taught that that's selfish, right? Because I can, I didn't go and see this because there's was only about 10 minutes between me finishing this and us starting to record here, but like I can imagine the internet comment sections that exist, uh, because in a lot of ways she's telling comedy to go fuck itself, you

0:37:27 Callie: Know. Um, and I can see the comment sections, you know, talking about how ungrateful she is, she's being selfish, um, because, because for some people comedy is that, that. Right. It, it, I guess it turned out not to be for her. Uh, and, and I don't want to take away from the folks for whom that is real because there are lots of folks for who that is real. Um, but I just like, I kept seeing so many parallels and everything that she was saying. And then she had lots of really profound things to say about the way that we view women.

Uh, you know, the way we just sort of hand men power and we're, You know, expected for that to be the default, um, and I mean, and that stuff was really, really powerful social commentary, but like if we're talking about what touched me personally and just like completely wrecked my shit, that's really, really what it is because, um, just be real, like we're podcasters, we're public speakers, we're performers, right, to a degree. And there's, there's a degree to which when we, we say we're performers, that may imply that we're being disingenuous or that we're playing a role, playing a character, that some of this is made up and not really who we are. And that's not the case. At least not, it's, I know it's not for me. There's nothing in my podcast. That's not who I really am.

0:37:27 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

0:38:47 Callie: Some of it may just not be the entire story. Right.

0:38:47 Thomas: Same. I totally agree. Yeah. I hear that people talk about that and it's for me anyway, it's pretty much who I am. It's a cherry pick section because I, you know, not to derail what you're saying, but yeah, people think I have a reputation for being nice as a podcaster and I'm always like, I don't think that's me. But then I realized it's just because I I 98% of the time I'm talking to like really cool, interesting people who are like my favorite people. I was like, well, yeah, I guess if I always get to talk to those kinds of people, I, I guess I would appear to be nice because yeah, yeah.

0:38:56 Callie: Yeah.

0:39:21 Callie: Those people obviously obviously didn't see us playing Mario cart in Milwaukee saying, yeah,

0:39:28 Thomas: That was, no, that was good. Friendly competition, you know, that's, that Was, yeah

0:39:31 Callie: Absolutely. Um, but yeah, I just like, I felt that so hard and that's, and maybe that's a pressure we put on ourselves. Or maybe that'S a pressure I put on myself. I guess I should be careful not to speak for other people. Um? Because whenever I decide to to say, fuck that and just say what I really want to say. Usually I am rewarded by people saying like, oh my gosh, that's what I needed to hear. Or like that was really powerful. Um, yeah,

0:39:54 Thomas: I, yeah, and I wanted to add into what you're saying because there was another story in addition to that one we talked about that she mentioned. There's another one that involved her grandmother that I was floored by because it's such a funny joke. It's such an hilarious joke. And then the flip side of it is just so, when she tells the ending of it, because it is very early on, I believe in the the special, she says, yeah, I, she said she realized like, oh yeah, I just forgot to come out to my grandma. I just, whoops, you know, and that's the joke. Like, oh, yeah. I just I didn't get around to it. You know, like that's essentially the joke is like, oh, that's funny. You know like I can I can relate like our family keeping up with family, you don't get, you know, and then at the end she goes on to say, you know, no, the truth behind that was I was I just couldn't I couldn't do it.

I absolutely couldn't do it and and it flips it on its face so hard, it, you know, to like this, oh, that's a funny joke about, you know, no, it's not really a harm of any kind. It's just, you know, you don't keep up with your grandma from time, you just kind of slipped your mind. It'S a hilarious joke. And then the other side of it being that internalized homophobia, that'S apparently a huge, a huge component of, she'S from Tasmania. And I guess it'S a, it'S A very, I mean, of course it'S going to be everywhere, but that'S a particularly rough rough area for LGBTQ people.

0:40:31 Callie: Right.

0:41:19 Thomas: So that being the kind of twist ending, or not necessarily twist, but like the extended, the actual ending of that story was another example that I just, oh my gosh, I was so floored by this thing.

0:41:30 Callie: It speaks deeply to this thing that queer and trans folks have to do if they want mainstream. And I would have to go back and watch her previous comedy to make a firm judgment on this. So I want to be clear in saying, I'm not saying this is for sure what happened, but it's what I get the sense happened in these jokes is that oftentimes to be gay, to be trans, and to be a performer and to Be Accepted by the mainstream, you have to write gay jokes for straight people. You have to write trans jokes for cis people.

0:41:40 Thomas: Hmm. Right, right. Yeah. Right.

0:42:07 Callie: So, like, you have to build the context. So, like, oh, this is funny to someone who isn't gay and maybe doesn't understand the culture that, or the cultural experience or life experience, that comes with that. And so, like I said, I don't want to say for sure, I didn't hear the joke in the context that she told it originally, so I don't want to stay for sure that's what she was doing. But it was the way that she explained it was very reminiscent of that. And she's like, "You know what? Not super interested in that anymore."

0:42:34 Callie: I'm going to go ahead and tell it for real. Like it really is like it really happened. And, um, you Know, cause if she had done, obviously there are lots of people that just wouldn't resonate to, uh, because it's not something like that for a lot of folks is just not real, uh. In, in the sense that they don't necessarily have a contextual reference to understand what that feels like.

0:42:57 Callie: So like, it's like, oh man, that sucks.

0:42:34 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, that plus, right, that plus, it's not comedy, which is her other point, which is like, I it's, you know, like, there's, I'm not going to just put this into a clean punchline that leaves out, you the act, the reality of the ending anymore. And yeah, I

0:43:02 Callie: Right. Well, of course. Yeah. Yeah. And so just, it spoke to me on that level too, because, um, you know, I have seen folks, friends of mine who have decided to make part of their thing being like, no, I'm going to make content specifically targeted at other trans people. And if six cis folks want to come along along for the ride. Cool. You're welcome. But know that this is not for you. It's not made for you with you in mind. And to see the backlash that comes with that or the pushback that comes with that.

And it's like, you guys never had anything to say when we were carefully scripting ourselves so as to not offend or make you uncomfortable, to make you feel good for being Being the ally to make you feel good for being open-minded. When we were carefully scripting and tiptoeing around our words to make you comfortable, you didn't have anything to say about that. But when we do this thing, it's not even, it's against you. It's not saying that you're terrible people. It's just made with someone else in mind. The pushback that comes with that. I think there's, there's a context inherent in what she was doing in there that was like, Like, it read to me like she's saying, like, yeah, fuck that. Not interested in that anymore.

0:43:32 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah yeah

0:44:31 Callie: Like,

0:44:32 Thomas: No absolutely. I found it so compelling and the time Time has just flown by, but one thing I want to make sure to ask you about that I found really fascinating was, really difficult in no way am I trying to put myself on any sort of level, you know, things you've gone through or she's gone through. But she talked about at the end, anger and how anger is functioning, you know, because I've been that guy on Twitter, people know I've I've been that guy who gets, you know, I've gotten upset at some things and getting tone police over it is frustrating. But at the same time, I was actually kind of caught off guard by what she said. I wanted to get your thoughts on it, which was that she also didn't, while she, yes, she was finally just telling the stories and not making it funny.

She also said toward the end that she, she also did not want to just give people anger. You know, she didn't, while, while she feels justified in it, having been a victim of so many things, and please watch it because there's, there's even, there'S even more. It's, it's, uh, harrowing. Um, but, but she didn'T want to put that in the world. And, and that was something I didn'T necessarily see coming, you know, which is, she DIDN'T, she, she thinks she probably has a right to be angry, but that also isn'T, that also doesn'T build anything, you KNOW? So do you have any thoughts on that? Because it seems like an interesting, difficult line to walk, I guess. But what do you think?

0:44:55 Callie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

0:45:59 Callie: Yeah. So, I'll tell you how I read that. And I might be reading it this way just because that's where I'm at. Like, I don't want to, you know, say that I feel like I know for sure what she was trying to say. Like, obviously, take it at face value. You, but like, one of the impact lines is like, I identify as tired and, and that was one of those things where I was like, again, like she's kind of bringing trans folks into the conversation. I feel like there might've been another way to say that. Um. So it made me a little uncomfortable again. Like I'm not saying she's a terrible person or you shouldn't watch it or anything like that, but it made a little uncomfortable, but the sentiment I 100% get because Jesus, I'm so tired.

Um, and I feel like what it sounded like to me was an expression of like, I am so angry and for good reasons, and I am so tired and I don't want this for other people. And so it seemed like a very careful way to validate the feelings of people who feel That way, but just sort of giving this expression of like,

0:46:18 Thomas: Yeah, I love that one.

0:47:08 Callie: This is where I'm at and I don't want that for other people. And I don'T want other people to feel the way that I do. And, uh, and, and I get it, you know, I, I DON'T necessarily agree with the things that she was saying because she said something about like, you you know, anger only serves to spread hate or that that's maybe a bad paraphrasing, but it was, she sort of dismissed, I feel like what the value of anger can be. Um,

0:47:39 Thomas: Yeah, that's kind of what I wanted to talk to you about. What do you thing that is? What do think the value of anger can be?

0:47:46 Callie: It's a precision weapon, right? It spurs us into action. Um. You know, I, I did this journal for my patrons about social media. And one of the things that I said is like, I think of social media the same way I think of a hammer. Like you can build something extremely useful and valuable with a hammer, or you can murder someone with it. It doesn't necessarily have any inherent moral value on its own. And I kind of feel the same way about anger, right? You can use anger constructively or you Can use anger to just perpetuate anger. And, uh, I think anger can be a very healthy start. I mean, if anger is where you start and stop, then, you know, maybe that's not a healthy place to be. Uh, but anger is often what spurs us into action. Anger is what inspires us to, to get out and vote or to get on and educate people or to start asking questions, to start applying pressure on people.

And I think that is a super valuable thing because as human beings, you know, I think it's just basic psychology that we understand that people react to things that make them angry. And that's say that like, oh, we should be deliberately making people angry because that's what makes them take action. But I think it's bad to dismiss the value of anger,

0:48:05 Thomas: Right. Yeah,

0:49:09 Callie: Especially righteous anger, right? Like I see kids being locked up in cages and I'm fucking real mad about it. You Know what I mean? And I am really, I'm even more mad that there's a whole group of people who aren't mad about it, or even might be excited about it, you know what I mean, like I I will not

0:49:15 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And I want to be careful here too. And you already said this, but I don't know that that's exactly what she's saying. You know, like I don'T, but it, but it is interesting. I think just to get in the line that stuck with me, I think toward the end was, I think she just personally didn't want to spread anger, you know, like that wasn't what she wanted to do. She wanted to spread her story. Like that was the important thing. And that really resonated with me because I do, I do feel like we need to do that. You know, like that's what has been the biggest force for, you know, for me being more aware of other people in the world is just listening to people like you, you know, people hearing stories that you don't typically hear.

And it's compelling, you know, it's, it might make you angry, of course, you know, but that's, that's the the important part. I think that's what she was trying to say is that it's whipping, whipping a crowd into anger. You know, it might be justified, but, but she wanted to emphasize it's more important to what she

0:49:27 Callie: Right Yeah. Yeah.

0:50:30 Thomas: Wants to do. This was my interpretation was merely spread her story. Like that was the more important thing to her.

0:50:35 Callie: Yeah. Absolutely. And, and, you know, there were a couple of times where she commented on the power of story and the power of storytelling and, like, anyone who listens to my show has heard me go on at length about This like a well-told story is one of the the most powerful things that exists. There is a highly recommended, there's the show Snap Judgment, the storytelling show from WNYC and you can hear it on NPR. They do a live show and this guy tells a story about a girl named Zianna Fairchild. Long story, I'm not going to get into it here, but that story is literally the reason why I don't stay silent about things anymore.

0:50:42 Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Hmm.

0:51:15 Callie: Why, when I see something happening in front of me, when I see a cop harassing a black person, I will pull out my phone and start recording. And I will stand there and watch and be a witness. If I can do nothing else. Or if I see, you know, a co-worker talking down to a woman, I don't let it pass. Why, like I speak up when I speak. When I see things. That story is the reason I do that now. And there, there are people who have emailed me and Facebook messaged me and Ari as well, my co-host, saying like, there are these stories that you told on the show and this is why I feel this way and this is why I do these things in my life now and you know, it's never because like, oh, you had a very cogent, well thought out argument that made very logical points about 10 things. Like, you know, it was you told a powerful story that made me understand this, and like, I am 100% with her on that.

0:51:16 Thomas: Wow. Yeah yeah. Yeah mm-hmm Yeah, yeah. I really want to check out the thing you're talking about, because that sounds, that particular story, to see what you mean. But yeah, no, absolutely. I think one of the biggest problems we face with all this stuff is this idea that like intervention is kind of icky and like saying stuff is kind of, you know, there's this kind of resistance we all have to like, well, I shouldn't, you, you know, interfere in the affairs of other people. And like, as a sum total, oftentimes in society that allows stuff to just continue, you know? Like that's what allows sort of this locker room talk bullshit kind of thing is a bunch of people who maybe, you know, are standers by who like wouldn't do that themselves and even are like, well, yeah, that's pretty shitty.

But like they don't want to go that extra step because it's very uncomfortable and it's it's very difficult to be the person who's like, hey, that's not cool. Or that's okay. Or depending on, you know, obviously the severity of the situation, the reaction, but yeah, no, absolutely. So I'm very curious to, to listen to that. I, I, I want to grab that from you after the show, but gosh, we were out of time. I, but I don't want to cut you off. We can, we can go extra. If, if, if there's more you wanted to get to on this for sure.

0:52:37 Callie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:52:55 Callie: No.

0:53:17 Callie: You're good, I think, I think that's a really great way to wrap it up because I feel like you, aside from telling her actual story, which is powerful enough in itself, I think what it comes back to and the the the impact that it had on me is just sort of reinforcing this power of of owning your story, being unashamed of your story, regardless of what, and understanding that your story has value, that it's worth telling, that it's valuable and, uh, and that it deserves respect. And that, um, you know, by, by being open with whatever stories you have to whatever capacity you're comfortable, like that really can change things. And, uh, I think, you know, if, if I might distill down the message of everything that I say, like I, I feel like that, that gets pretty close.

0:54:02 Thomas: Wow. Yeah, no. Absolutely. Oh, Callie, thank you so much for coming on. I really, one of the hardest things about podcasting sometimes is that I can't just reach through the microphone into the computer and give you a hug somehow. I wish, I wish they had that in function on Skype, but they don't. But I, you know, I owe you one next time, next time we're, and you know what? Okay. I'll, I'll give you one free victory. No, nevermind. Screw that. I've been, I'm Mario Kart when it comes to Mario Kart, you Know, it's just, it'S a competition. It's got to be pure, pure competition, but I will still give you a hug before and after. So how about that?

0:54:16 Callie: Right. For sure yeah

0:54:37 Thomas: Is that good?

0:54:37 Callie: That's fine I just need to take responsibility for myself and get better, it's fine, yes.

0:54:40 Thomas: I don't, I honestly don't remember who won. I wasn't sure if I won and, or like I lost and you were joking that I was too upset. I don'T remember, but all I remember is that we were kind of drunk and had a great time. So that's my takeaway from that.

0:54:52 Callie: Well and That's that's the key, that's what's important, no.

0:54:55 Thomas: Thank you so much. Really. It was just an absolute pleasure. Um, and, you and know, compelling and difficult, but necessary at times, you know, like, I just thank you for sharing your story. And I think that really does does distill down to to what, what what I thought was so powerful in that special. So I hope people watch it. It's kind of free advertising, I don't get anything for it, but free advertising for the Netflix special, because I just found it so good. And of course, Gaytheist Manifesto is where you can find Callie doing her excellent work with Ari. And And yeah, anything else we need to hit on plug-wise before we go out here?

0:55:29 Callie: That's it, Gaytheist Manifesto, gaytheistmanifesto.com you know, Apple Podcast, Stitcher, the whole, you know, anywhere podcasts are.

0:55:36 Thomas: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure and we'll do it again real soon.

0:55:40 Callie: Absolutely take care

0:56:05 Thomas: Like to offer another heartfelt thank you for Callie coming on. Really great stuff, moving, compelling, just really interesting insight, I love Callie, I loved having her on, and I'm so glad we were able to do it. It. That's my show, as usual you can support it over at seriouspod.com slash support or patreon. Com slash serious pod, either way, and bonus episodes coming at you, I just did that bonus voicemail I mentioned, that was really fun, and there will be bonus stuff coming at you, but thank you for supporting, you make the show happen, and with that said, I will see you whenever next you decide to listen to me, talk to you then.