SIO137: Christianity No Longer Makes Sense, with Evan Davids

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 137. I'm your host Thomas Smith, and I'm excited for today's episode, sort of going back to where it all began, talking about Christianity and Atheism and Agnosticism, really interesting discussion with Evan Davids, whose new book is "Christianity No Longer Makes Sense," so, fun stuff. I also want to let you know that I did a bonus episode a couple days ago, that's for Patrons, either of SeriousPod.com slash support or Patreon.com slash SeriousPod, either way, you got the episode and it was about Nazi pugs and free speech and the White House Correspondents dinner, all that stuff, I clarified kind of my thoughts on that, and I think think you'll enjoy it, so check it out if you are a patron. That said, let's get to today's interview. Evan, how are you doing?

0:01:29 Evan: I am doing well, thank you.

0:01:31 Thomas: Can't, sorry, we're not talking about anything until we talk about your dog first. We have to cover that.

0:01:37 Evan: Yes, my boy Fritz. I think you're referring to Fritz?

0:01:41 Thomas: I, most likely, do you have more than one super famous dog or, because if you do, okay.

0:01:45 Evan: No, I did just get a second dog, but I gotta work on his fame. Yeah, he's still lagging. Yeah, I

0:01:47 Thomas: Okay. Nice. Yeah. Hasn't made the big time yet. Why don't you explain to listeners that because this was so funny because we met at the California Free Thought Day and we were talking for a while and then you just brought up like, oh, and also I'm this guy from this dog video. And I was like, no way.

0:02:06 Evan: Usually try to keep a separation between church and dog videos, but yeah, it came up somehow. Out but, um, so Fritz the golden retriever, who, who can't catch food, if anyone's seen that, that's that's my dog. So he, uh, there's a few videos where I throw him various food items and it's in slow motion to enhance the, uh, the, uh, ridiculousness and, um, he fails and

0:02:31 Thomas: It's so great. Well, I apologize if you want to keep it separate. If you'd like, we could just do 45 minutes.

0:02:32 Evan: No. No. I don't care.

0:02:36 Thomas: We could just Do an Entire episode about your dog. We'll just to keep the separation going

0:02:36 Evan: That's fine. No. Yeah, no. Let's blend them, let's bring them together.

0:02:43 Thomas: No. It's just so cool, I, and I had actually just so happened, at that time I'd just seen the video like randomly, even though it's, I guess it's a few years old, right?

0:02:53 Evan: Yeah, it's like three years old, but I think when I, when I met you, it had, had every once in a while it gets rediscovered and makes the rounds through Facebook or somewhere, but, um,

0:03:03 Thomas: Isn't that so weird how that happens, like that happens with all kinds of viral stuff where it's just like oh, this is big and you think it just happened, it's like five years old.

0:03:07 Evan: I could right Yeah, so it kind of works out for me, but, um, I mean, most of those are, if someone steals it, it's, you know, it's these like big Facebook pages with lots of followers and they just find content shareable content, and so they'll just kind of rip it off of YouTube and put it on there. Yeah.

0:03:21 Thomas: Right. It's really interesting, but okay, enough about your famous dog, who's more famous than you, we can, we can talk about you. I'm really interested in this conversation. Let's talk about your book. But also, you know, we were having a conversation, like I said, back at the time. And just, just to mention something else, kind of funny, you are freakishly responsive on email, which is awesome. I, you sent me an email cause we were going to maybe do something, but it was around a time when people will know something was going on with me and I was getting way too too many emails and just got piled into an avalanche of nonsense. And so, but I eventually found it like the other week I just was going through, I was like, Oh, I got to try to see if I missed any good emails in that time when I was kind of ignoring everything. And I saw your email, I was Like, Oh cool. And So I email you six months later and like 10 minutes later, you're like, yeah, let's do an interview.

0:03:28 Evan: Yeah. Yeah.

0:04:14 Evan: I had been sitting around waiting for that email, so but

0:04:17 Thomas: Yeah. You're just sitting there with your, your one famous dog and you're not famous dog. And you're just like, when is Thomas going to email me back? Mac?

0:04:25 Evan: Yeah, you found my email. Great, uh,

0:04:26 Thomas: Yeah. No, it's awesome. But anyway, back at that time we were talking and, you know, we did a panel, which was really fun at Free Thought Day. And what's. And What's Interesting is your book is Christianity No Longer Makes Sense. And yet I think you're not quite an atheist. So why don't you talk about about the book, your background, and give us all the info there.

0:04:45 Evan: So, so the book is, is really just focused on saying Christianity doesn't make sense. It's not making a claim against theism in general. I'm trying to kind of focus in on, the on my argument that came up, you were, you were moderating the panel, I think it was the very first question someone asked, tell us when you became an atheist. Like, oh, great, I'm not sure what I am. You know, I just haven't spent much time on labels and figuring out what I am.

0:05:01 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:10 Thomas: Well, but take us back. I mean, were you deep in Christianity at some point?

0:05:12 Evan: Sure. No, I'm kind of an oddball, but I never became a Christian. I always thought I would get there. And once I really dove in, I realized that it doesn't make sense. So but I, I, but from early on I sort of had this, this drive towards theism, I guess, just believing in God, like I, I, um, I was just troubled by existence, the fact that there's something rather than nothing, and I, I just thought it was odd that everyone's, just is it just me or is this weird, everyone else seems really comfortable walking around like everything's normal.

0:05:22 Thomas: Yeah. Right.

0:05:51 Thomas: I can 1000% relate. I have felt that way my entire life. I've always wanted to believe in something, you know, because that's why I've I've said it a few times and, you know, pardon me for repeating myself, listeners, but a lot of people like Hitchens always had the like, oh, I'm glad there's nothing and it would be a celestial North Korea and all that. I never bought that. I was always like, if there was an all-knowing God, then I'm sure the afterlife would be great. But for me, it's just the world we're in is so incompatible with that, that I do not, I do Not think that exists. I'm quite certain that an all knowing, you Know, that kind of God does not exist, but

0:05:57 Evan: Wow. Yeah. Right. Right, right. And, you know, I don't think I'm that far from that.

0:06:33 Thomas: But I totally, you were saying the problem of anything, you know, why is there anything? I'm totally with you on that. It's such a supreme mystery.

0:06:36 Evan: Yeah, yeah, right, and so I guess I was sort of, I sort of looked up to religious people, like, at least these people are that this is, you You know, they're appreciating that that this is this is crazy that we exist. And, you know, if there's a God, then we should be tuned into him like these religious people are. They go to church and they, you Know, read the Bible. And and it's kind of weird getting back to understand where my mind was, because I just sort of conflated Christianity and just a general belief in God. So I never I never felt any pressing need to become a Christian or go to Church. I mean, I felt I should, but I just grew up in such a secular world with secular friends and my family was secular. But in the back of my mind, I had this like closet drive to eventually get there and live how I should live and get in with these religious people.

0:06:45 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Hmm.

0:07:36 Thomas: It's so funny. I 100% relate. Like, I imagine that we might be a bit of a minority in that, but I was the same way because like my, half my family was religious and they went to a Christian school that I kind of looked up to actually, a Christian university that was kind of, it was all the the like, oh, great books, great thinkers, you know, rigorous, that kind of thing. And as a kid, I was like, that does seem cool. And just had this air of like, you know, intelligence and like erudition and that really the the smart people were on to on to this, you know, that there is why is there something rather than all those great questions? And I honestly, I don't know a whole lot of people who had that mindset. You know, it's usually people were indoctrinated into it or or force their way out of it or what, you know, some combination of that. But I think you and I are very similar. I always, I wasn't able to buy it though. I was never able to make myself actually believe

0:07:58 Evan: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. What about just like a general belief in God or were you always even skeptical of that?

0:08:36 Thomas: It. I would say I came close to that, but, but you know what? It's hard because like how accurate are our memories of, you our, our evolution of beliefs from age six to 17 or something. I remember at age 14, I have a specific memory of saying I was an atheist. So I guess, I guess maybe it was maybe like six through 14. I don't know, but it's so, so at some point I made that claim, but I, I, I might have maybe believed in some theism or D or rather deism, but I know that for certain it was always wishful thinking. It was never, it was never motivated, motivated by actually feeling like that existed or it was true. It was always like, gosh, I really want there to be some answers.

0:08:36 Evan: Yeah. Right. Right, yeah. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:09:21 Thomas: You know, I want there be some ultimate justice to it all, some ultimate point to it all. Very, very much me wanting that to be true rather than actually believing it, I think.

0:09:32 Evan: And that's, that's how I was. I was sort of comforted to know that these guys haven't figured out like, um, you know, it's weird, we, you, you hear Christians kind of lament that it's, we have a live in a secular society, but at the same time there's this kind of, this, this background assumption that it is true. I mean, I just figured and we, we generally celebrate Easter and Christmas and there's Bibles in the hotel rooms and there churches everywhere, I don't

0:09:35 Thomas: Mm hmm. Yeah. I don't know who's saying we live in a sect, you know, like 80 percent of Americans are Christians pretty much, right?

0:10:00 Evan: Write. Well, if you listen to the, the, the right, they sort of, yeah, they feel like this, their, their days over and it's just like the end of morality and everything.

0:10:08 Thomas: Yeah, right. It's like the Great Onion article that was that I think they do it every Christmas. That's like huddled Christians in a basement, you know, celebrate around a sparse Christmas tree as though there's some persecuted minority.

0:10:18 Evan: Right. But But that sentiment is alive and well. I mean, and it animates that, that side of the society. But anyway, I guess I just naively just thought, and I didn't think it was like Christianity was specifically, I didn't differentiate. I just thought all the religions, you know, were kind of going to the same place, but eventually I'll get there. But I didn't know it was Christianity was something you had to sign up for. There's something I needed to be saved from.

0:10:27 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, definitely.

0:10:51 Evan: You know, that was kind of a shock once I got around to actually looking into it and understanding the theology. Wait, what? So the default position is that every single person is on the road to hell unless they come, they sign up for the right beliefs, it's

0:10:44 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm, right. Yeah, and by the way, it's not unless you do some good stuff or help enough old ladies cross the road. You have to recognize that Jesus was so awesome or something like it. That was an easy part for me to be like, well, that's stupid. There's no way, like if this all-powerful, all-knowing person being did exist, this is not what they would want. I don't think there's any possible way.

0:11:10 Evan: Not, yeah.

0:11:27 Evan: Right, and you grow up just with this, this kind of childish, uh, understanding of heaven and hell. Good guys go here, bad guys go there. And, and but then you realize it's actually not, that every single one of us has sinned and that, that's, that's the bar as as long as you, you've sinned once, which, which everyone has, you're on the road to never-ending punishment, unless you come across this story and believe it's true. So it's odder than most people realize, I think.

0:11:37 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

0:11:58 Evan: Even what most believers even realize. I think it's shocking how little believers understand their own theology.

0:12:05 Thomas: Right? I think the, honestly, that my mostly atheist audience probably is onto this, but I do totally agree that there's, you'll encounter Christians who have had these beliefs and have never, ever thought about like, oh, that doesn't make sense. And it's amazing because, you know, the country is overwhelmingly Christian. I think there's a lot of background assumptions that they share and they just don't ever, oftentimes they're never challenged.

0:12:25 Evan: Yeah, and I get it. I understand how it's enticing, and it's a consoling message, and you go to church, and it feels good, and hell is not the cell. They're not front-loading with hell. They sort of talk around that and just give you all the good stuff. So I understand how people go there and don't really know what they've signed up for.

0:12:48 Thomas: Yeah. And some people don't believe in, yeah, some people don't Believe in Hell. I mean, I remember my family was like, well, hell is just an absence of God. It's not like a fiery place. And It's like, okay, but still, that doesn't make sense You know, let me ask you a specific question, though, about your title. Why is it no longer makes sense? Was there a time when Christianity did make sense?

0:12:52 Evan: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah, good question. So, I'm not saying personally, like, it no longer makes sense. I'm I'm talking about in the grand scheme, like 500 years ago, it used to make a lot more sense than it does now. I'm saying modernity has been unkind to Christian theology and the Bible. So yeah, I got that a lot at the Free Thought Day we were at from skeptics, like, what do you mean? It never made sense.

0:13:17 Thomas: Hmm. Okay. Yeah. I'm just here to ask you all the basics, I guess.

0:13:33 Evan: So I'm not talking about like, you know, virgin births used to make sense, but now they don't. Like, that never made sense. Or, you know, walking on water. That's the point. It's supernatural, right? So that's not a problem for Christians. That's a feature, not a bug. I mean, granted, a lot of it never made since. Like the Trinity, I don't think that ever made sense, the atonement, like a sacrificial death, allowing God to forgive sins. I'm not sure that ever makes sense. But the things I'm talking about are things that actually used to be believable, but now are not. Things that used to be morally acceptable, but now are not.

So basically look at three main things. I look at the fall, which gets into science, because what science has uncovered is completely disrupted the Christian worldview. And Adam and Eve in the fall. That's integral. It's directly connected to the need for a Savior. So, I look I look at hell, just how people used to believe in more fearsome gods, so it wasn't as much of an issue. But today, it's just not really the God that they're celebrating every Sunday. And then I look, you gods used to famines and diseases and bring neighboring countries against each other in bloody wars, and do all that stuff, just like the biblical God. And

0:13:40 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.

0:14:50 Evan: That's really not the God people believe in today. So I'm just trying to kind of shine a light on the the um distance between actual traditional Christian theology and the Bible and and what people are believing today and what people what makes sense to people today, yeah.

0:15:05 Thomas: Right, I totally agree. So much of the Bible now, virtually all of it, and especially the Old Testament, all of of it is, oh, you know, it's not, not literal. You don't, you know, but if you were to say that to somebody in year zero or what, you're 15 or 20, I guess, oh you'd have to go to like year 100. If you were say that, to them that, well, not, not for the Old Testament, I guess. But anyway, if you're to go back to that time and say, well, you have, clearly this is just not meant literally, right?

0:15:32 Evan: Yeah.

0:15:32 Thomas: They, they would not know what you meant. And they were the ones who were, who were talking to God, who mysteriously, you know, disappeared after a certain year from our our experience.

0:15:41 Evan: Yeah, I mean, there's arguments for, you know, a lot of it being allegory eventually, but but what Christianity decided it means through the centuries is pretty established and you know, if you if you live well

0:15:52 Thomas: And I always say though, like allegory for what? Because like there's so much awful garbage in there. I've read, I don't know if you know this, but I read, oh, I guess I mentioned at the time, but I read through the whole Bible as a podcast. And people just are absolutely 100% ignorant of, well, you know, I'm exaggerating, but um, I would say very, very high percentage of Christians are ignorant of what's actually in the Bible. And if you go, if you just read through the Old Testament, it's a nightmare. And it's not like literally or not literally. It's a nightmar either way. There's no good message to when that guy cuts up a woman and sends her all different directions. There are so many examples of that too, where it's like, okay, cool, not literal, just awful. I don't understand what this would be. It is not perfect, that's for sure, it's not a perfect book.

0:15:56 Evan: Yeah, right. Yeah yeah, totally. Yeah I mean, and it seems so obvious, I mean, all the things that that stood out to me as huge problems when I first started looking into Christianity are still that's basically what I'm still writing about and it's just, I guess, part of the motivation to write is I don't get it, like this seems so clear-cut to me, look, why are people defending, offending a book that says women should be stoned on their wedding night if they're not virgins. Just don't even try. This is bad. But I mean, I understand the necessity to say that this is the Word of God, because things do unravel. It is a slippery slope. The slope is real, I think, don't know. I mean, it makes so much sense to me, the arguments I'm putting out, so I wanted to put them out there and you people happen to find the book, you know, where did I go wrong, what am I not getting, you know, so it made me dive into, yeah, go ahead, no.

0:17:04 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah well have you heard yeah Have you heard from Christians, I mean, are there any counter arguments you've gotten and throughout writing this book?

0:17:45 Evan: Lot of it is, oh, you're not being sophisticated enough, well. I, I read this, the air quotes sophisticated arguments, and I just, they seem a little desperate, it's, it's, I don't say they're sophisticated, I say they're contrived and forced. I don't know.

0:17:48 Thomas: Right yeah You weren't, uh, you know, when you read the Bible, you weren't holding your pinky up, uh, to get the sophisticated read on it or something? No, I agree, it's that once you, you start recognizing that it's post hoc rationalizations. That's why I say if you were to speak to people who were there allegedly for these events, they were there. If you were to tell them all this stuff that you now, you know, Christians now believe, they would think you're nuts. They would think you weren't a Christian. They Would think you were some sort of heathen and they were the ones who started this religion.

0:18:10 Evan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:18:37 Evan: I mean, if you lived, I don't know, 500 years ago, there's no reason to not believe the Earth is 6,000 years old. I mean, why would you think that's a ridiculous idea? I mean why not trust the Bible on that fact? That's So, huge disruption, I would say. Even old earth creationism, I think, is struggling. And so I tried to bring that out. But but, you know, on this side of the scientific revolution and geology and all these breakthroughs, it's it's just you can't hold that anymore. So people say, oh, it's so simplistic. But no, this is such a natural reading of it. To squeeze billions of years and millions of species and extinctions and all this stuff before Adam and Eve?

0:18:44 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah,

0:19:24 Evan: No, that's not a natural reading.

0:19:24 Thomas: Yeah. And God, all all powerful, almighty God couldn't spare one sentence for like, by the way, if you come across some weird bones, here's what it was, you know, that, that would be not hard, not at all hard for a God. There are so many predictions and, you Know, you get the bullshit apologetics. I don't know how much you've debated Christians. I've done a little bit, but not that much, but you get the usual stuff, which is like, well, you Now, the people of the time, you've got to use the language of the Time. If they, if God had written about DNA, I mean, all hell would have broken fucking loose or something. And it's like, okay, even, I think that's, that's stupid by the way, but even if we go with that, uh, you, you still could have said, um, there used to be, you could still could've said accurate things that

0:19:33 Evan: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Just

0:20:07 Thomas: Were not, yeah, that were not at all like technologically advanced or something, you know, you could have said, Hey, the world has been around for this many years. Uh, there have been multiple, you Could have explained by the Way, why you used, uh evolution or or why you, you know, why you use so much time to get to humans. But no, none of that was, it's such an unimpressive book. And if God were real, it would have taken so little effort to make it the most impressive book ever. You know, like just so little ever.

0:20:08 Evan: Dumb. It down, yeah. Yeah.

0:20:37 Evan: It would have been so so impressive if we read something like this and What do you know, science uncovers it, but instead we have, you know, genealogies that that are, it's hard to make those poetic, it's like the most boring, boring literature that basically stick Adam and Eve 6,000 years ago.

0:20:41 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yep. I'm curious. Now let's, let's talk about you. Let's talk About Your Not Quite Being an Atheist Because as much as I feel it every day, the weirdness and the just mind-blowing quality of our existence, I really do agree with you. But the thing is, though, that a God doesn't solve it. I'm sure you know this, but you can't just stretch that one being back, you know, just saying, okay, it's so weird that we exist, so therefore something else existed first. It doesn't do anything.

0:21:27 Evan: I definitely get that. You know, I, once I gave up theism, which was basically because I just had to, to be honest and say, okay, there's, there'S not a God that's active in the world. I can't, I can'T say God's doing this or that in my life. Well, you know, all these people get mowed down and, you Know, the worst things you could think of happen. So I thought, well, maybe deism, you know, at least deism accounts for why there's something rather than nothing and also accounts for why nature is so indifferent towards us. So, I guess when I, you know, the conference when I said, maybe I'm a deist, I don't know, I'm just not ready to take it off the table.

0:21:45 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm.

0:22:09 Evan: Like, I could never cling to it strongly and say I'm a deist. I don't know, like I'm just saying that's possible.

0:22:09 Thomas: Hmm. Do you think of yourself more as an agnostic then?

0:22:18 Evan: I think so, and and you know, at that um, that uh, free thought day, what, Davids Small, he was there, and he came and talked to me after I said that stuff, and I talked to him a little more. He's like, "Yeah, do you know what, don't be offended, but I, I think you're an atheist." So I donno, you know, it's just definitions, I haven't spent that much time on it, but I think, I think why I haven't used that is I feel like I'm more inclined than most atheists to think that there actually is something spooky going on behind the curtain, like I so, like you said, Like even if you just

0:22:31 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. How would you define that? How would you find spooky behind the curtain?

0:22:56 Evan: Something we just don't have access to, like, at least, like, the God hypothesis is something, like, it's more satisfying than saying nothing, nothing gave rise to everything, um, so

0:23:08 Thomas: Yeah, but you could very easily say, you I mean, we already have discovered through, you know, quantum physics and all kinds of stuff, stuff that is really spooky and makes no sense to us. Um, so we already know about that, but, uh, but I also, I see what you're saying. Like you think that even beyond beyond what we have access to currently. There could be some spooky stuff. And like, honestly, I'm an atheist and I, I agree with you. Like there could be plenty of things that, you know, there could be some other physics, there could be some other whatever. But I think that you might be an atheist. And I think there's, I think it's important to, because in the context of the society we're in, people do want to label you and people want to box you in. And I imagine you're somewhat resistant to that because you want to be open to some sort of spookiness. And I get that. But also, you got to recognize how many bad things are being done because people just take for granted that everybody's some sort of wooey theist or something or believes in God.

0:23:11 Evan: Yeah,

0:24:08 Thomas: And like, atheism can simply be, there's not enough evidence for any religious claim. I mean, what do you think?

0:24:14 Evan: Right, and I'm good with that, you

0:24:17 Thomas: Oh, okay. So we'll all just call you an atheist and you can, yeah, yeah.

0:24:18 Evan: Know, You know, I, I just, I, again, it comes back to the fact there's... there's something rather than nothing, and like, even if it's, why I couldn't ever cling to deism is because we can't know. No, maybe it is a simulation. Maybe it's just something we don't have access to. And obviously, if it is God, it's not a God who cares about being worshipped or identified in any way, you know?

0:24:37 Thomas: Yeah. Totally agree. But I want to say that, atheists aren't arguing positively that it's not a simulation or that it'S not, you know, that, that's what I'm trying to drive home is like, I think while you may be able to find bad examples of atheists everywhere, just as you can find bad examples of everything, at its core, you don't need to throw away any of those beliefs you just outlined to call yourself an atheist, I don't think.

0:24:57 Evan: Sure.

0:25:14 Evan: Yeah. And I'm not really that scared of the term. It's just I haven't spent much time thinking about it, I guess.

0:25:19 Thomas: Are you sure? Because you sound pretty scared of the term.

0:25:23 Evan: No, yeah. Maybe, maybe, it is just a slow slide, you you know, pretty soon I'll be comfortable with it. I don't know. I mean, I'm just. Yeah, I guess I'd rather give the nuance and say I'm open to something mysterious.

0:25:27 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Well, that's fair, I guess. There's been a lot of debate over the years between how legitimate a term agnostic is, because some people think it is, other people think that everybody's agnestic. Anybody who, even your most hardcore atheist, atheist, I, you know, I'm pretty, pretty hardcore atheist at times. And even I, if, if you know the hand comes down from the heavens and talks to me and I can confirm that it's not just me hallucinating like, yeah, okay, well then I was wrong. You know, everybody's, everybody is agnostic in some way. And it's, there's, there's been debate over whether or not that's just a softer way to say atheism or kind of avoid the, you know, the, the heated term that is atheism and avoid some of the the pushback. What do you think about that?

0:26:27 Evan: Yeah. I just think it's whatever, however people want to define it. Like for me, it's like practically, there's no difference whether I'm a deist or an atheist. I find common cause with with atheists because, again, I don't think there's a God that really about being identified. I don't think there s any special revelation. So, practically, it's kind of a moot point.

0:26:47 Thomas: Yeah, that's, you know, I want to, we should, we should talk about that because I totally agree. And I'm wondering, you know, since, since we agree on that, maybe we would move past it without explaining, but what, what are some of the reasons you think that God doesn't care if, if God did exist, if there is something, why that thing doesn't, doesn't care about being identified or, you know, that sort of thing. What are some of the arguments there?

0:27:13 Evan: I don't that because I just don't there's evidence. I mean, I think any of the special revelation, you know, is looks divinely inspired, it all looks so man-made, so I just, if there's a God, there's... there's, he definitely is not, uh, doing a very good job convincing me. And, you know, I just, I have no reason to to believe in any specifics. I mean, other than the fact that there's something rather than nothing, which could be, you know, like I said, some alien kid science project and another dimension or a simulation. I don't know.

0:27:23 Thomas: Right.

0:27:47 Thomas: And again, it would just push it back one step and you'd be like, where do they come from?

0:27:47 Evan: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, I know it sounds silly. I guess I'm just saying like I, and maybe this is, this is still safely under the umbrella of atheism, I still think that's more likely than not that there's something, some cause behind it all. Can't, yes, yeah,

0:28:06 Thomas: The uncaused cause of some sort. I mean, I think in a real sense that has to be true in a way, But I would suspect that the way it's true would not be in anything like religion. I think that it could be, you know, there may just be properties of whatever, the universe or the multiverse, whatever it is, there maybe properties that just exist and those properties can give rise to a universe. I think, that's certainly what, you, know, people like Sean Carroll probably say something like that or that. That. And, and to a certain extent, if we can't access that in any way, you know, it's, it is a mystery we'll have to live with, but, but it, but that is atheism. I think to say we can access that.

0:28:55 Thomas: Sure. There could, there could be a giant frigging octopus at the, you knows, source of all of it. There Could be somehow like beyond if we have no access to it and it has no causal effect on anything we're doing. It could be, but you know, you can't say a hundred percent, but that's, it's Russell's teapot. You know, it's the, it could be doesn't, you know you're still an atheist effectively. You Know, it Could Be That Every Day I'm Being Cloned And All My Memories Are Being Taken And Implanted In Me And I'm Actually A Different Person Every Single Day, But There's A Shadowy Cabal Of People Like That's A Hundred Percent Consistent. You Can, You Can Make All all kinds of consistent conspiracy theories or theories of our existence. And you can't disprove them for certain. You can just say, well, there's not really any reason to believe that and we should operate as though that's not the case.

0:29:00 Evan: Right.

0:29:46 Evan: Yeah, I guess. I can really argue with that. That's the thing, yeah. Call me what you want, people.

0:29:51 Thomas: Good. Well then just say yeah, I guess I'm an atheist. Yeah. And the label, I think there's varying levels of importance. I think it can can be important when, you know, there are people living in states where if you're an atheist, you're, you're a good guy. You're a nice guy. I think you're someone who, if you called yourself an atheist I would score that as points for atheism. I guess I am driving to make that appeal.

0:30:20 Evan: I'm a sinner just like everybody else.

0:30:23 Thomas: Talking about hell, I mean recently didn't the Catholic church or the Pope decide there was no hell?

0:30:29 Evan: That's the question. Did he say it or not? Because they quickly walked it back, but... Yeah, no, I said, no, no, he didn't, he didn't actually say that, but, um, but I, that's the thing, I mean, the Catholic Church, I think we all know, the Pope is doesn't buy into the traditional Catholic theology, and that's, that's kind of corroborating my thesis on my book, is that it no longer makes sense even to the Pope, like...

0:30:33 Thomas: Oh, really? Yeah.

0:30:56 Evan: They have to play along.

0:30:58 Thomas: He's like, God, what is all this nonsense?

0:31:00 Evan: Yeah, and they, the Catholic Church is an interesting one, because they have liberalized a lot, you know, since the 60s, Vatican II, they've kind of opened themselves up to real scholarship, fellowship, and I actually took classes at a Catholic seminary for a while, and I was shocked at how liberal it was, and it was just, I felt like I was just hanging out with non-believers, because they just put the Bible in the middle of the ring, and, okay, let's have at it.

0:31:27 Thomas: Hmm.

0:31:27 Evan: But the Catholic Church, more than any other denomination, has serious paper trails, you know, 2,000 years worth, and And so they can't they're more liberal than they can admit.

0:31:41 Thomas: Interesting. It was just theologically. Yeah. I was going to say, cause they're sitting on, You know, know billions in real estate and like golden thrones that they could probably use to feed the starving children of the world, but you, but yeah, you liberal theologically.

0:31:44 Evan: Yeah. Theologically, overall, there's definitely and they're a big tent. Yeah.

0:31:54 Evan: But I think this this Pope, that's where he wants. That's where his emphasis is. I can't give him credit for that because it's, it's not about, you need to be saved from eternal conscious torment. You know, he really is. What didn't he say? He thought atheists maybe get to heaven, too. And uh,

0:31:55 Thomas: Oh.

0:32:11 Thomas: Yeah, was that this pope, I guess, it was that's been a few years progressive

0:32:11 Evan: Yeah, No, He He's Pretty Progressive, you know, again, like, like I said, more, more so than he can admit

0:32:17 Thomas: For a pope Yeah, Yeah, no, I hear you, I hear ya, but this idea that, that's one thing that I think is really interesting about Christianity and about religion is this idea that there would be a God who would make people and make the the requirements for people, but, but fashion the people such that they can never meet the requirements. I mean, that's, that's a really shitty thing to do.

0:32:18 Evan: Yeah, Totally.

0:32:39 Thomas: Like, why, why would I, I mean if I, I would, I wOuld be, you know, if a, if A person did that, imagine if I did that to an AI that I designed, you knOw, in a computer, you'd be like, dude, what, what an asshole thing to dO. What is the point of that? You can never, your AI can never do the things you're requiring it to do, too. Just make it better or make the requirements easier. There's no, what, you know?

0:32:44 Evan: That Yeah, That's Such an issue because that's central to the storyline in Christianity and it's just doesn't make sense. I, at least traditionally, they say, well, no, God didn't make everyone like this, it's because of Adam and Eve sin, it's the fall, and we were all, all contaminated with this sin nature. And that's why we have this messed up world that we have today. And that's why evolution is such a threat to Christianity. It's because evolution gives us a perfectly good explanation for why we're not perfect. I mean, of course we're not perfect, we evolved from wild animals.

0:33:33 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:33:35 Evan: Like, we're going to have some rough edges around us. Not And that the original story made that much sense, I mean God got through what, what, not even his first generation and things went awry, but at least, you know, the traditionalists still say, well, it's still because of human sin that things went bad. But under evolution, everything is as it should be. Like, you Know, there's people, a lot of evangelicals are trying to move into theistic evolution because they know it's time. You just can't fight it any longer. The consensus is growing. And so they're really trying to figure out how can we smush together together Adam and Eve in the fall, an original sin, and evolution. And the truth is evolution was, or the Christian story was never meant to handle evolution.

0:34:02 Thomas: Yeah. Right.

0:34:19 Evan: You Know, evolution is a process that, you know, it's a harsh, uncaring process that rewards sometimes tribalism and barbarism and irresponsible sex and whatever gets your genes across, right? And then so if that's God's chosen method of creation, is he really going to then turn around and say you're all, you know, doomed to hell because you're flawed? Like, no.

0:34:20 Thomas: Right, yeah.

0:34:43 Evan: Nothing broke. Under this, a scientific worldview, nothing broke. Everything is as it is. We're sort of climbing up and our morality is improving. Um,

0:34:52 Thomas: Yeah, and if you try to maintain, like you said earlier, I mean, science totally disproves the Adam and Eve crap, but, and there's no real way to hang on to, okay, that's not literally true, but there still was an Adam and Evie that, you now, like, Like somehow, you know, because what in the story, they're just duped. I mean, they literally do not have knowledge of good and evil and then are punished for making a bad decision. It's like, what do you, if I give you, If I say, Evan, choose one or two and you're like, well, what's the, what am I choosing? I just choose one of two. And you're like, okay, two. You idiot. You just, Everything forever is ruined. Ruined. It's like, that's nonsense. And and no, no, naturalistic version of that makes any sense either. I mean, because we know that we didn't evolve that way. There was no setting where everything was cool. Like, if anything, things were way more awful, as you just said, forever.

0:35:18 Evan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And They've been able to sort of absorb a lot of other upsets, like, like, okay, it turns out stars aren't small enough to fall to the Earth. Um, the sky's not, uh, yeah.

0:35:59 Thomas: I know. That was my favorite. I brought that one up at that Free Thought Day. That was one of my, my favorite examples on. In Revelation, where it's like two stars fall into the Earth and then more things happen. Okay. Well, that's still true. That's, that's still true. We should clarify.

0:36:11 Evan: Yeah. And you know, the sky is a dome that separates the waters below from the waters above that.

0:36:21 Thomas: No, I'm just kidding.

0:36:21 Evan: Yeah, we don't know. That's yeah. I'm agnostic there, but there's these things where they were able to, you know,, or, or heliocentrism, you Know, that was, that that was obviously Galileo had a tough time with that one. That was a big deal, like moving. But eventually there wasn't, without much consequence, they were able to move the sun to the center, move the earth out. And it didn't affect the overall theology too much. So, you know, whether stars are small or big, that doesn't really affect the core of the theology. They could say, oh, it's just poetic language, right? But the problem is they actually built, Christianity built their theology on a historical Adam and Eve.

0:36:44 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:37:01 Evan: And so this one, even though they say, okay, maybe it wasn't an actual garden or it was, you know, they try to deliteralize parts of it, but they're still trying to squeeze some history from this ancient creation myth. Because without the fall, it's just kind of severs that connection between Jesus and the beginning of the story. It's like swapping out, the punchline, but swapping out the backstory.

0:37:29 Thomas: And, you know, not to mention, like, what does the sacrifice do? Like, he sacrificed himself to himself so that maybe he would be cool with us? I guess it seems a trifle unnecessary and circuitous, but let's transition then to, um, what do you think we ought to do with this? Like if we, okay, we take for granted, we've made the case. Do you, should we be out there? Uh, you know, cause you and I are, are atheists of course.

0:37:38 Evan: Yeah, that's always been weird for me. Yeah, obviously.

0:37:53 Thomas: Uh, should, should we be, should be out there trying to dissuade people? I mean, you wrote a book, so I suppose in some capacity you would say, you knows, it's worthwhile to do so. What do you, you think? Yeah.

0:38:05 Evan: That's a tricky. Yes. I mean, I think there are innocuous versions of Christianity, but there are such bad ideas in there that have had real depressing consequences through history. And I think defeating the bad ideas and the Bible and Christianity is should be done. I think the idea that the words of an ancient tribal culture are actually the words of God is dangerous. I mean it wasn't helpful consulting the Bible during abolition movement, you know, the women's rights movement. I mean, today it's not helpful at all if you, you consulting the Bible over issues of sexuality and gender, you know, it's it's destructive. And that is dangerous. I mean, it is easy in a sort of more liberal, progressive bubbles to think, oh, you know, no one takes that literally anyway.

0:38:17 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Right. Yep.

0:38:53 Evan: But no, they do. They do. And this really still does affect people's lives. And I would say just even things like should I spank my kids or not? Like personally don't. I'm not an expert on this. But the point is, that decision should be based on reason, not whether some barbarians—yeah, let's not consult barbarians from 3,000 years ago about whether we should hit our kids with rods. Like, that'll be—let's opt for reason over biblical wisdom whenever we can. So in that sense, I think it is worth the Bible's bad ideas and sort of loosening people's grips on biblical authority.

0:39:12 Thomas: The rod spoil the child, yeah, right. But There's not, I agree, I, I think that's, that's the answer I would give. I think it's, it's very worthwhile and I think that it's a big threat to, and I think, also, are you based, where are you based? I'm just curious.

0:39:41 Evan: I'm in California.

0:39:42 Thomas: Yeah, same here. Okay. So it, I, I do think the people are us and the people around us, I think, can get, get really casual and sanguine about Christianity and like, ah, you know, people are going to believe, like, like they believe in horoscopes and stuff. And it's like, whenever I travel to the South, I'm like, oh, okay, nevermind. This is not all cool. This there's a, there's the lot going on. You know, there there's, there a lot of really toxic harmful stuff that's, that's based on these beliefs. And I agree with you.

I think it's worth trying to dissuade people of those beliefs. And I think It's at the core what atheist activism should be doing, fighting for secularism and that sort of thing. But I also think, if I understand you right, I also Think if someone gets down to just a deism, then it's like, okay, well, I'm not going to spend a lot of energy trying to talk you out of that. Unless you come on my podcast, there's not, I'm not going to like, you know what I mean? Like there's bigger fish to fry than the, than the person who's like,

0:39:43 Evan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:40:40 Evan: I just don't think it's of much

0:40:48 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:40:48 Evan: Consequence in that case.

0:40:50 Thomas: I agree.

0:40:51 Evan: You know, the only problem I'd have with liberal Christianity, besides not understanding what they actually believe or what they're hanging on to, is that a lot of these guys just give cover to the nastier forms of Christianity. You know, they give they give the general public the idea that Christianity isn't that harmless. Oh, people don't really believe that, you know, you know all the traditional stuff. But they really do. You know, as far as is it a net gain or loss, you know, because some I don't know, would some people really be, some people really need this to be good people? I'm not sure.

0:41:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I I don't know. I mean, I think it's definitely a net loss. I think, you know, if we tally up a lot of stuff throughout the years, just in the US, I think it's definitely a net loss, yeah, but that's one thing I've become interested in lately, which is humanism being something you could replace it with. I guess we need to make the case, the positive case for what, because some people apparently really do think that you need some sort of religious belief to be a good, good person. Excuse me. And I just think it's so obviously not the case. I mean, all, all our morality is, it's stuff that we detect in chimpanzees, you know, it's reciprocal behavior and it's, you know, and the answer to like, well, well, who's going to make you be good when nobody is watching?

0:41:35 Evan: Yeah, right.

0:42:22 Thomas: And honestly, the answer is if nobody's watching and it has no consequence on anybody, then what are we even talking about? But if it does have a bad consequence on somebody, well, then that's why you shouldn't do it. That's going be the thing. If no one's watching, and you steal, yeah, you might get away with it. And making a cosmic being, I guess, would be one way to scare someone into not doing that. But I don't think it's a particularly effective way of doing that. And it's also not necessary. I mean, just the idea that we all ought to behave ethically because it's the best for everyone. I think it's as simple as it gets.

0:43:00 Evan: Yeah. And I think the good things in religion you can have without religion. So I think, I think the main benefit is the community and the social capital people, all these different people sort of coming together and being around other human beings. I mean, I think that's the healthy part and this might surprise you. I'm in a unique situation. I actually go to church somewhat regularly because my wife is a Christian.

0:43:26 Evan: So I, I kind of get to keep my finger on the pulse well, no, I mean, so yeah, this is interesting.

0:43:10 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, Interesting. How liberal Of a church are we talking? I mean, you are in California, but Hmm.

0:43:38 Evan: Um, she, she grew up in a very conservative fundamentalist, um, Christian worldview. And, you know, actually right when when I met her, she had just kind of was, was peaking. She had just had her born again experience in this mega church down in San Diego. So, um, know, since then she has liberalized, but, but still the churches she's comfortable with would be more conservative ones. Cause you know if we go to a more liberal church, it's, it'S kind of foreign. It almost feels blasphemous. I think to her, you know, it's just what Jesus just like this good guy. And it's

0:43:44 Thomas: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Just A hippie.

0:44:16 Evan: No, He, he, you know, he died for our sins, um, so Yeah, it's

0:44:16 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Well, that's interesting. So you, how do you feel about That, I mean, is this, does this cause tension, or are you just kind of going along with it, are you Are you trying to chip away at the theology here and there, or no?

0:44:28 Evan: Uh, When we first started dating, I was pretty annoying and uh, would uh, always

0:44:39 Thomas: You are an atheist, theist.

0:44:40 Evan: Yeah, I would, I would challenge all the, and I was, it's right when I was digging into it and finding all these, these things that I had big problems with, so I would, yeah, I, I would bring it up all the time. And, um, and she, like a lot of people, she, she's not one to read all the apologetics and that's boring. You know what? She feels Jesus in her heart. And um, yeah, she put up with me and you know it's, it's a compromise that we both knew we were getting into when we got married. You know, I assumed we would sort of dovetail into maybe at that point, uh, into some sort of like liberal version of Christianity. Um, You know, it didn't work out for me, um, but yeah, so I guess back to, back to where we were, um, we usually, the churches we usually go to are, um, more on the evangelical side, more conservative.

0:45:18 Thomas: Interesting.

0:45:33 Thomas: Hmm. Speaking for myself, I could much sooner date a Christian than a Trump voter. So that would be like somebody voted Trump. That would be the, no, okay. I can't do that. But if, okay, well, thank, thank God. I thought I was stepping in it there. But no, okay. Well, that's my priorities because I just think that anti-feminism and anti-progressivism are such a bigger issue right now. But I think there is a connection. You know, there's some connection to, of course, evangelicals are all about Trump somehow. Yeah. So there's not zero connection, but I would definitely, you know, I think I would be able able to manage with a, with an interfaith relationship of some, of some nature. I mean, it just kind of depends on how intense it is and like how, how many beliefs

0:45:46 Evan: So, I Did Manage to, manage to pull her away from that, so Yeah. Look, At his base Yeah. Right.

0:46:26 Evan: No,

0:46:26 Thomas: There are that, you know, but honestly, maybe not because I don't think it would have gone too far with the whole waiting until marriage thing. So like, so maybe it, maybe it wouldn't have worked for me. I've just, I'm not, you don't have to, you know, I just talk it for myself.

0:46:36 Evan: Comment.

0:46:43 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, well, I, I think that's, that could be a, a, you know, a weird note to go out on. I don't, is there any, any last words, any stuff you wanted to make sure to, to, to get in? Is there any place people can go to, to follow you or your dog?

0:46:44 Evan: Yeah. Yeah. We definitely Uh, Yes, uh, let's see, I do have a website, evandavids.com, you can check that out, it's got a few blog posts and um, some music and, whatever, Twitter I don't use.

0:47:10 Thomas: Yeah, good. What about, should, should people hop on Amazon to grab your book or is there anywhere else that's better?

0:47:22 Evan: Yeah. Yeah. Amazon.

0:47:24 Thomas: Awesome.

0:47:24 Evan: Christianity no longer makes sense.

0:47:26 Thomas: Well, I thanks so much for the conversation. Conversations, fascinating. It was really nice meeting you, and I'm glad I did dig through my email eventually. Sorry for the late reply there, but it was better late than never, I think.

0:47:39 Evan: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

0:47:41 Thomas: Awesome. Yeah, hope to run into you again soon. I mean, I know that event's coming up, and I'll be promoting it again. I'm not sure if you'll be there, but I believe I'll be there.

0:47:49 Evan: Oh, good. Yeah, I'll try to get up there.

0:47:51 Thomas: Excellent. All right, Evan Davids, thanks so much, and thanks to your one famous dog, and tell your other dog to get on it.

0:47:57 Evan: He is. All right. Thanks, Thomas.

0:48:25 Thomas: All right, thanks again to Evan Davids. That was really fun, you know, going back and talking about Christianity and atheism. I miss it. Yeah, it's fun. I think there's maybe getting back to my roots in podcasting is worthwhile. Let me know if you enjoyed that and if it's something you'd like to to hear more of. It's been a while since I've debated a Christian, but that's something you can always do. I mean, it's, I think it's, it's, I always forget, you know, I just saw somebody online the other day posting, just mired in the whole struggle of Christianity versus atheism and that kind of thing, and coming out of religion.

And I guess I sometimes forget, you There's gonna be a new graduating class every year or every month or every day of people who are like, wait a minute, I've been taught Christianity all my life, and I'm starting to realize it's not right. So it's, it's fun, I think it's, it's worthwhile to do this every now and then. All right, thanks so much for listening and thanks most of all to those who support the show and make it happen. I hope you're enjoying those bonus episodes, and I'll see you next week.