SIO114: Getting on the Same Page #metoo

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 114, I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, well, how about that last episode, huh?, got a lot to talk about, and it does stem from the last episode. A minor, a minor shitstorm did a brew from that. Not a, not a category five or anything. But just, but, there's enough sort of legitimate criticism mixed in with with some, what I think is some unfair criticism and some, maybe some difference in where people are coming from that actually I do want to address that, but I want to say, okay, something like half this episode might be self-reflecting kind of meta analysis of what I'm doing here.

0:01:16 Thomas: It's a little bit self-referential and it's something I don't, I'm very hesitant to do, except that I've had a lot of thoughts about this. I think I have some interesting thoughts about it. And also, I want to highlight some of the very worthwhile concerns that people had. But if you don't want to hear me talk about what I'm trying to do here and reflect on criticism and all that, if that's just not something you're interested in, no hard feelings, but don't miss the latter half of the episode, wherein I have two incredibly fascinating and compelling voicemail messages. They're actually both recordings sent to me, so they're actually pretty long, but that's good because they're fantastic. I don't want you to miss those. So if nothing else, don't miss those, they start at about 26 minutes, 40 seconds.

0:02:01 Thomas: So first thing to say, as with all shitstorms, major and minor, is it comes with the difficult task of trying to evaluate, okay, what percentage of my audience is this? Because I have heard from plenty of people who saw what I was trying to do with that episode and enjoyed it for what it was, despite the fact that they were probably yelling at their phone at times and appreciated it, etc. Now, if I were only interested in me and feeling good about myself, I could just look at that and ignore it and go home. But I'm not interested in that. I am interested in trying to do what's right. I am interesting in trying the best show I can have. And sometimes that doesn't always mean, by the way, going with the numbers.

0:02:49 Thomas: You know, if 20% of the people are upset at me, it doesn't really matter that they're a minority if they're right. Maybe that 20% is correct and I need to either issue a correction or apology or reevaluate something and take on a position that might not be popular and honestly might cause popularity to fall with the show, but is the right thing to do. That's something that I guarantee has happened before and it's something that I want to be open to. But I mention this mostly because I know I don't hear from anywhere near a significant portion of my listeners. There's a lot more people just listening silently, going about their lives and not commenting, calling, doing all that stuff. And I just wanted to point out that if you are someone who was listening casually and you don't engage and you enjoy the episode, I just want to say you're not alone.

0:03:38 Thomas: It's not as though you were missing something that everybody else caught. I've heard from a lot of people who saw it for what it was and saw what I was trying to do. But there were people who had concerns and complaints about the episode. And I want to say right now, I think there are some very valid concerns, and I don't mean to make it sound like if you didn't like it, you were wrong. That's not at all what I want to say. There were a lot of comments and posts to the effect of, why did you have Chris on? And I've talked to Chris. It's been rough for him a little bit, and I really feel for him in this situation. I really appreciate him coming on. He's been a trooper and he said, yeah, no, I appreciate having my views challenged and so forth. But people have said, and rightfully so, they have said we don't need to hear from another dude on this.

0:04:25 Thomas: That's that's not what we need in the Me Too conversation. You know what? I absolutely agree. And I want to emphasize that if this was the only episode that I had done on Me Too, I would be right there with you kicking my own ass. Because, and what's unfortunate about this and what I think some of the criticism I got is from people who just aren't familiar with the show. And so they go and find this and they think, oh, this is like when you pit a scientist against a creationist and you debate evolution, it kind of puts them on equal footing. It misrepresents the debate. And you know what? If you just took a look at that episode and you weren't familiar mit me at all, then yeah, I mean, I get it. Now, I still wouldn't give myself an F. I would, you know, I would say maybe like a C plus because I had Tracy on.

0:05:12 Thomas: I pretty much agreed with her the entire time and I did my best to help out. But I also wanted to leave Tracy the room to to take the bulk of the time to express that side of the thing. I didn't want to be mansplaining over Tracy. That was a fine line. Some people accused me of being too neutral and that I just want to point out like that that was a really difficult thing because if I'm not too neutral, if I am on too much of Tracy's side, then I'm just mansplaining over a female guest when she was doing a perfectly capable job of saying what needed to be said. If I go too far the other way, then I look like I'm just being the Intelligence Squared guy who thinks that the right answer is 50-50 on everything and I'm very worried about looking like that. I just want to point out these are concerns that I have to have going in my mind a thousand and times a minute on everything because I'm doing my best to make as fair and as good and as considerate a show as I can.

0:06:10 Thomas: And that does not mean for a second that I shouldn't be criticized when I fall short. I absolutely should. And some of that happened here on this episode. But I think it's very important to point out, and I hate to have to do this, but I want to point out that this was by far and by no means my one and only word on the Me Too conversation. This was actually the latest in what was far and away dominated by women, because I wanted it that way. And then when it wasn't women, it was mainly me opining to myself about Me Too, and I was being the best ally that I could. Certainly, again, still subject to criticism, but being an ally to the Me Too movement. And to anyone who is new to my show, I would highly encourage you to go back and listen to Christy Winner.

0:06:57 Thomas: She's been on a couple times. She was a fantastic guest regarding issues of Me Too. Charone Frankel was on one of those episodes. Samantha Corbin, especially, since she's on the front lines of trying to get this fixed in the California State Assembly. I'm going to have her back on soon to get an update. I actually have been texting with her about that. That was a really interesting one. Roberta Chevret, Stephanie Zvon on harassment. And also check out the episode that is Three Stories of Me Too, which is just three women sharing their different experiences, that that's the Me Too conversation and I, I just want to point out to people who aren't familiar, that's where that began. This is not, let the last episode wasn't, oh, here's my take on Me Too, let's get a regular good dude and a feminist, that's 50-50, you know that. By no, I, I, I really shudder to think that that's what people thought was happening on this show. And you know, it's just the nature of the medium, people pick up podcasts, they leave podcasts. They don't know the whole history.

0:07:56 Thomas: I do two episodes a week. So very quickly, older episodes get buried in an avalanche of newer episodes. So, you know, no harm done. But I just wanted to take a second to kind of make that clear. But I also want to offer a sincere apology if I had any part in misleading anyone about where the episode was going to go. I think that that was due to not exactly knowing which episode I wanted to do. I think there probably was a better episode to do on this. And some people were expecting this. And for that, I'm very sorry if I misled anyone. But I had asked and had suggested, you know, there are feminists who disagree on this. I want to do a show probably between two different feminists. And I could have done, and I kind of actually had a mind to do, an episode between two women on either side of the Aziz Ansari thing.

0:08:44 Thomas: I think it's hard to say. I think that could have been a better conversation. It's a conversation, by the way, I can still do. I'm interested in still doing. But when Chris volunteered and I talked to him a little bit, I really was taken in by the idea of doing an episode with people like Chris in mind. Because as I said then, I very much think Chris and me and you and everybody, you know, like just the guys in our society are who needs to change in this. I think there is a problem with consent. I think there are elements of it that society as a whole perpetuates. One of the voicemails later on is going to talk a little bit about how slut shaming can sometimes lead women to give different signals than they mean to.

0:09:30 Thomas: That's another story. But let it suffice to say, I do very much believe there is a major problem in our society. It's something that is thankfully getting better, but has been really bad in times past. And that problem largely involves men. Now, okay, not all men, not 100%, you know all that. It's not, of course, it's not 100%. It can be women, whatever. But largely, it's men not having the right notions of consent and what no means or rather what yes should mean, all that kind of stuff. So while, again, it may not be 100% of the problem, a significant portion of the problem is men in this society not getting it. And when you have a population of people who, to varying degrees, not all men, not all men or whatever, who aren't getting it, what do you do?

0:10:18 Thomas: And this leads me to reading a comment I got. I'm going to keep it anonymous. I don't want to put any sort of attention on someone who doesn't want it,, but I want to read one of the comments I got, this is from a woman in case that's not clear. Here's the thing that I think you are missing. We've been hearing from white men since the beginning of time. We know their ideas, opinions, confusion. We have tried to work within it and it has gotten us nowhere. The Time's Up movement isn't about us wasting more time trying to educate men within the system. It's about moving on without them. The way to join us is not to elevate more male voices. It is to stop talking and start listening. It's a way to move on without men. It's not about women defining our boundaries. To hell with male opinions and confusion. Asking questions is great. Answering them or opining on them is not.

0:11:05 Thomas: There's a little more I'm going to skip, but then she ends with, "If you can't find women to come on, you aren't looking hard enough. Use your platform to give voice to people who have been silenced. Men will either get on board or get left behind." Now, with all due respect to the commenter, I find this really puzzling. I don't know what in the world you mean by leaving men behind. Here's what I agree with. I absolutely agree with most of the premises.

We have been hearing from white men like me since the beginning of time. We know the opinions. I get that. And if the point of my episode had been, hey, you guys aren't listening to people like Chris enough, let's hear him out, then I would be right there with you. That wasn't the point. The point was, this is the person whose mind we need to change. And I really want to know what you mean by these men will get left behind. Are we helicoptering to a new island where only people who get consent are going, or are these men, if we don't bring them with us, if we don't make them understand, are they going to continue to harass, to assault, to make people uncomfortable, to break boundaries? I mean, that's what's going to happen.

I really, I have to say, I do not understand this feeling of, oh, if men don't get it, well, whatever, we'll just leave them behind. What? They're still going to be out there. They're still going to be the ones behaving in the ways that you don't want them to. This is where I want to point something out. Now, this is an analogy. Of course, all analogies are imperfect, and I'm sure someone on every side will be pissed off about this one, but I think this is interesting.

0:12:36 Thomas: I would like, if you don't mind, to reflect on the difference between how some people are treating this conversation and this need to change the behavior of a lot of people at once, how they're treating this with how they're treating the question of reforming Islam. The typical progressive response or solution when it comes to Islam needing to reform and, you know, the Muslims that you see on opinion polls who still think all these old-fashioned and really misogynistic and anti-gay things in terms of how they need to change their minds and sort of catch up to modernity, the progressive answer is, well, it's not going to be us over here telling them what to do, it's not going to be someone from the outside telling them what to do, it's going to, reform will come from the inside.

That's the typical answer. Now contrast that with what's being said by some people here, which is, in order to change the behavior of a certain population, they need to shut up and only listen. Now I want to point out that morally, I think you're right. I do actually agree. And I want to make that absolutely clear.

Morally, I think in both cases, what men who don't understand consent and don't understand boundaries and harassment, they do need to shut up and listen to women. 100%. I absolutely agree. In the same way that I believe Muslims in Saudi Arabia with questionable views on women and gay people need to, morally, it would be good if they could just listen to secular people in other countries.

0:14:14 Thomas: But as much as morally I think that is the right thing, I just don't think it accomplishes anything. If I'm wrong, I apologize. I really do, because all I want in the end is for people to stop getting harassed and sexually assaulted and raped and everything like that. That is the goal. And in recording the episode I did for Monday, I never imagined that having just a typical guy, Chris, on to have a lot of his opinions soundly defeated by an intelligent and sharp feminist, I didn't honestly foresee that big of a negative reaction to it.

I thought that would be an unambiguously neato thing to happen. But instead, I got people saying, why are you having a shitlord on the show? And that frankly is, it's not just wrong, I think it's harmful and wrong. Chris is so far from a shitlord, boy, take it from someone who deals with shitlords day in day out, he is not that. He listens to my show, scathing all those, Chris, I have to believe has got to be on the progressive side of average when you're talking about men in this country. Keep in mind that Donald Trump right now is about a 40% approval rating. It went up.

Think about how many men I could have had on that don't believe in MeToo at all, who say that the whole thing's a witch hunt. None of it is, you know, evidenced, and you can't, you know, like, wow. I mean, if you want to talk about shit lord, I mean I'll find you a shit lord.

0:15:45 Thomas: If you want to go that direction. No, that that was not this at all. Chris is not that. And I actually think it is harmful to represent someone who is is not that as that. I think that if you want to say, because people, and I've talked to Chris again, apologies to Chris, if you're listening, I've got to do a lot of talking about you behind your back. But you know, Chris knows I disagree on some things. I thank you, He said some very problematic things during that. I hope he's reflected and knows what they are. But if you think, if you want to try to write that off as, oh, that's just what shit lords think. That's just what, you know, that group thinks. No, no, no. I imagine that he is, again, likely on the progressive side of average. So unless there's a situation where we are helicoptering all these people or all the other people to a different island, this is the person who's going to be in your area, in your space, in your country, in your community, among your group of friends.

0:16:43 Thomas: This is the the person whose actions we want to change. But I do have to balance that with what is a very critical and correct point, which is there are people we really need to hear from in this situation. And if it were merely to get out more opinions, I agree. I mean, we don't need to hear. That's not who hasn't been able to get their opinion out. The standard, just a dude in this society has had time to get their opinion out on this issue. I agree, but that wasn't what what I was trying to do. Now, if you still don't agree, you know, I get it. I hope you'll at least recognize what the, the objective was and that it's a different story than, oh, let's have an intelligence squared debate and just kind of see, you know, what's going on.

0:17:28 Thomas: It's different than that. But if this wasn't for you, then, and it may not have been, there are plenty of people who maybe they just, they don't have the mental energy to want to hear a debate about this with just a dude. Hey, I respect that. Skip the show. I hope I gave you enough warning and enough of a heads up. And if I didn't, I really do sincerely apologize for that. If in any way you expected something different, that's my fault. Sorry about that. But I also want to say I'm nowhere near done with this issue. I think more conversations on this are critical and not fewer conversations. I think there's still a lot of disagreement among female feminists on this scenario, and while I don't want to keep talking about Aziz forever because it's kind of weird to do that, I actually think maybe it will be worth doing that episode that some people wanted, which was two women, two feminists, disagreeing on Aziz.

0:18:27 Thomas: I think that's fascinating, and maybe that is another conversation to have. But I also have, booked as a guest, it's in the calendar, it was already in the works before this episode came out, Jaclyn Friedman. She is the author of a book about kind of yes means yes, and she's written pieces about Aziz. I think she's going to be a great guest to talk about sort of this culture change that needs to happen. I'm looking forward to that. A couple other things I want to talk About. You know, I forget which episode it was, but I mentioned the Garrison Keillor story and my response to so many people on Twitter has been, we only have one side of that story. But I did say in an episode, you know, I wish they would make some sort of statement. Now, I know, you know, I'm not saying the victim has any obligation to share her story.

0:19:14 Thomas: I don't think that's true, but some sort of statement, even if it was just what Mr. Keillor's is saying is not the whole truth. Like, even if it was simple as that, just to give us something to work with, because I have seen a lot of people on the right and even people in the center and even feminists thinking this has been ruining a guy's career for nothing. Well, it turns out someone linked it to me. I guess I'll give credit to at Confusion Gollum on Twitter, who was the first to link this to me, and this just came out yesterday. So they really hadn't said anything that I saw except that they had done a full investigation. But MPR, not NPR, MPR, MinnesotaPublicRadio.org did a sort of a, like, a FAQ on the decision about Garrison Keillor.

0:20:02 Thomas: And they say that it is not because of that single incident. They say that there was a, quote, there's a 12-page letter detailing many of the alleged incidents, including excerpts of emails, written messages, requests for sexual contact, and explicit descriptions of sexual communications and touching, end quote. So, there you go. I mean, that was what I suspected all along, but again, I had said, give us anything to work with to kind of fight back against that right-wing narrative of this was a witch hunt, and they did, so I'm glad they did. But it's important to get that out there. So if anybody ever lists Garrison Keillor as the victim of the warlock hunt, you can link them this story. I'll put it in the show notes of, no, there was more to it.

0:20:48 Thomas: This is why we listen to victims, and we don't just take the accused word for it without even getting any other side of the story. One more random thing to note before I move on. I had expressed some confusion at why Grace is, I think, the pseudonym that the victim took in the Aziz story. Why she, there's a point in the story where it seems like she's finally kind of gotten out of it. You know, she's been trying to resist this whole time, and they get to the couch, and then he, like, sort of presents himself in a weird way. And then she goes down on him. And I just found that a little confusing. I thought it was finally, like, OK, you got out of it. And I was told by a couple of women pointed out that that made sense to them.

0:21:34 Thomas: And along with their experiences, that could be kind of a weird way of taking control back in this situation and actually not having to have sex. So thanks for that. I mean, I did pose that as a question to Tracy. I posed that as question here. I'm not trying to make a statement about it. I just wanted to include that that was some of the feedback I had gotten, that that made sense. And I think a lot of what I've received and the wisdom I've receive from a lot messages messages and comments from women in this is that it, it really boils down to the fear of saying no, of how many, you know, news articles or people they know or whatever, where you say no, or you don't know if it's safe to say no because you don't know what's going to happen to you.

0:22:20 Thomas: If you say no. I did have a gentleman on Twitter who was pushing back against this whole thing is kind of anti me too. And his whole thing was, well, if men don't, if man aren't persistent enough, they get laughed at. Like the times that men get embarrassed in these situations is when they didn't make the move. You know, they get shamed for not making the move. And I think there's a little bit of truth to that. But also, I think what Samantha Bee, what a lot of women have pointed out throughout the years is, yes, men do at times have to fear being perhaps chuckled at. Women have to to fear being murdered. So it's not really a symmetrical thing. And I think one of my listeners who left a great long message in my email that I'm going to play for you, she illustrates this better than I possibly could.

0:23:08 Thomas: So I'm gonna leave it to her to say later. And finally, I guess I want to say that though I've taken a lot of criticism in this, and there have been some comments that were not too friendly, and the like, I will say that, you know, you do always always have my solemn pledge not to go Dave Rubin or David Smalley or Stephen Knight on you. I mean, my show, my voicemail, my Facebook, all that stuff will always be a safe place to disagree, voice your opinions, and I do appreciate it. I think there's a very reactionary response that it's pretty easy for a cis white guy to do, which is like you get called out on something and then say, well, you just can't do anything right, so why try? The left eats its own. I'm in the center now. That kind of thing. And I don't think that's ever the right answer.

0:23:55 Thomas: I firmly believe I stand on the progressive left. I guess that's for others to judge, but that's where I think I am. But I think we all have to figure things out for ourselves. And this last episode I thought was good. I stand by it. I think it served a good function. It doesn't mean, you know, can't always improve and couldn't do things better. But I think it was a good illustration of what the average guy thinks. And I hope that if there are people who agreed with Chris, maybe they heard their arguments said out loud. Maybe they heard the brilliant responses by Tracy and maybe they reconsidered. I also want to say this won't be the last time I'm going to do outreach. I think that I kind of try to do a balance. Like I spend most of the time interviewing, talking to people whose voices I think need to be promoted.

0:24:46 Thomas: But I do want to spend a certain amount of time on this show. It's not that much, actually, but a certain number of episodes. I want to depend on trying to maybe reach people across whatever bridge it might be, whatever ideological bridge it may be. I have said before, I've described that I worry if we get to the point in this country, and there's no reason to suspect we can't, which is enough people not valuing facts in any way. And it's it's one thing to say, well, the people have these crappy opinions, we should never put them on shows, we should ever talk to them, and I don't even want to put Chris in this, by the way, because I I don't think Chris is that level of like bad opinions, but anyway, just talking in general, like when I debated Robert Price or other things like that, I I will do a certain amount of that, and if that's not your cup of tea, um, don't listen, but I think that that is something we need to try to do.

0:25:42 Thomas: As I've said before, our discourse is absolutely broken in this country. And I understand if you don't want to try, to talk to the other side, but I want to sometimes. And you know, I have my limits. Everybody has their limit. Everybody has their person that they don't wanna bother with and that's fine. There are bad faith people That's not worth trying on. But, you know, like there's it could go the way it's not impossible that the sensible responding to fact people in this country could become vastly outnumbered. And I don't want that to happen. So at any rate, at long last, let me get to the first recording I have from a listener.

0:26:27 Thomas: This is just excellent. This is from Mandy, and she emailed me a file. She actually wrote me an email. She had so much to say, and she wrote me emails. She's like, you know, this was way too long for the voicemail inbox, and so she sent me a file, and it's really good. Let me hit play on that for you.

0:26:44 Voicemail: It was really upsetting when I heard things that are not sexual assault should probably not be attached to the MeToo movement, because that could muddy the waters. It's like, okay, maybe we should have a different hashtag for rape and assault to make things clearer, but that doesn't mean MeToo isn't also about harassment. The fact that Aziz stopped when she said no is good, but pulling your hand away from a crotch is a no too, and he didn't stop for that. Also, just as a base in a situation like that, women can try to appease a guy just so that he won't do anything worse, but the most jarring part of the conversation for me was when the guy that was on, and while I think he was probably a very decent guy, and putting yourself out there for something like this is nuts, but he doesn't and can't understand that he can say, hey, go away, to the other asshole talking over your lunch conversation because he's a guy.

0:27:41 Voicemail: And in so many situations, I have to worry about what would happen. Look, I know 99% of the time, nothing will happen. But for instance, I work at a hotel by myself a lot and I get hit on by drunk guys or sometimes I have random drifters coming in to get warm. I don't know what's going to happen when I say no. They can get back into my office area very easily and I am the only one there and many times they're staying there for days and sometimes they keep coming back and keep talking and they know I'm alone, but the the worst example I have is the time I was molested on the street. I was cosplaying for a convention where I was dressed like Baby Doll from Sucker Punch, a costume which I made by hand, which I was very proud of. For a time when I look good to myself, finally I was proud of it, and I sometimes got leered at at the convention hall and had had pictures taken of me and with me, but I totally expected that.

0:28:34 Voicemail: I know sometimes those places can have problems but I was fine there. The problem I had was when I had to get out cash to park. It was a last minute thing that was set up at the hall and I thought it was better than waiting for other parking. But I didn't have cash on me so I went a couple blocks into town to an ATM. Most people looked but they just kind of shrugged it off until I left the store. I was heading back to my car and and a couple of probably 40-some-year-old guys were making comments about me and how I looked. Okay, but ew. But then one of them came over to me, and he asked me why I was dressed like that, and he said it was so hot, and I nicely explained why I wasn't dressed like I was. I was looking like that while I kept walking down the street to leave. He got closer to me and he shoved his hand up my skirt to grab my ass.

0:29:22 Voicemail: I pulled away and I kept walkin'. I had to stop at a stoplight though to cross the street and he asked me where I was going. I was upset and I was weirded out by that point, but there was nowhere to go. I said I was leaving for the convention and started finally crossing the street. His friend was a block or so back, so I was hoping he'd leave, but instead he said I needed help across the street. He put one of his hands on my bare back and the other hand on my arm and guided me across like I was a little kid. Then I was at my car. I didn't want him to know which one my car was, but I also wanted to leave as soon as possible. I nodded. I told him I was leaving now and I pulled away fast toward my car. I unlocked it and got in as fast as I could, but before I could shut the door, he had stuck his face inside, reminding me of how pretty I was and he'd be so sad to see me go.

0:30:13 Voicemail: He asked to kiss me and I said, no, thank you. And he said, come on. And then he gave me some words about him being so sad and that, you know, he he couldn't, you know, see me leave. And I shook my head no, but he grabbed my face and shoved his lips over mine like he was a freaking octopus suctioning himself to my face.

Then, while I was recovering from that, he ripped a piece of paper out of my car, wrote down his number and shoved it into me. I finally got my car door closed and drove off as fast as traffic would let me. I was fucking, I was stunned. I told my friend at the convention what happened right after that, and I cried for a good chunk of time. I felt violated all day, and sometimes when it pops into my head I still do.

I tried walking away, I tried to leave, I tried to tell him no, but it didn't freaking matter. I was told years later, please call out if that happens again. And I may be able to now, but there was no way I could have known that would happen then or what he even could have done to me in that situation. He had his hands all over me in public. And I've heard of women getting actually hurt just for turning someone down. It's not always as easy as just saying, hey, dude, you need to leave. And how is that? How is that not understood by other guys? I mean, I don't know how to make it stick.

Sometimes you're nicely trying to just be nice and converse and just subtly leave just so that you don't anger someone when you already don't feel safe. What happened to me wasn't sexual assault, but it was harassment and it was awful and I could even include myself in the MeToo hashtag for lesser things as well, but that doesn't mean that those are much less harmful. I think that's what Me Too is for.

0:32:04 Voicemail: Not just to make the Weinsteins of the world look, you know, over their shoulder, but to show men, to show women it's okay to be upset at being harassed. And also that it happens to more women than most men even know. That doesn't mean that all things deserve arrest or job loss, but they do deserve attention. How else will the guy who groped me on the street possibly ever think twice?

And hell yes, when I am now safe and out of harm from him, I would out him for being a giant douchebag if I knew who he was. So I get women coming forward, and I don't want anyone to be accused if they didn't do something, but I know most women have to have even, like, say gotten up the courage to walk to the bathroom at a bar because they know their butt's gonna get pinched four times on the way, so it sucks. And I know that some men are afraid, but just don't keep doing stuff if women pull away or start acting weird. You can always ask if it's okay to do without being a douchebag about asking about it. So, sorry not sorry, because I'm already afraid way too much of the time.

0:33:11 Thomas: If there was a podcast version of a standing ovation, I would give that to you right now, Mandy. Thank you so much for that incredible, jarring, heartfelt, and courageous message. It absolutely stands on its own. I do not need to add anything to it. I want to clarify because you and someone else on Facebook pointed something out that I think I messed up on in the conversation. And so I wantto say that there was a time when I was just trying to move the conversation away from technical, legal, sexual assault because I just didn't think it would be fruitful. And the way I did that was kind of awkward. And a few people noted that I made it sound like it wasn't assault or that, you know, and, uh, that that's my fault.

0:33:56 Thomas: I really just, all I was trying to do was move away from, I really didn't think that was that important. Whether we talked about a dictionary version of sexual assault, because I actually do not think at all that it, something needs to be technically legally sexual assault or rape or whatever to be part of Me Too. Now, I know that's not for me to say, of course, but that's something I find really confusing about Chris's opinion. I don't really understand why a conversation like the one in the Babe.net article, as much as there's an article in Jezebel that I haven't, in either of these conversations, haven't gotten much time to talk about, but it pointed out there's some awkwardness in the Babe.net articles, and there's something that they think were mishandled.

0:34:42 Thomas: And I kind of agree. I don't think the way they wrote it up did the victim many favors. I think that could have been done better. That's sort of more of a journalistic thing. But at any rate, even so, I don't understand why what's discussed there can't be part of Me Too. I think that's a perfectly valid part of Me Too. I think that women being told to smile all the time on the street or being catcalled on the streets, that's not illegal. There's nothing illegal about it. Why would, why does something have to be illegal to be part of Me Too? I very much did not understand that point. And I don't think it is a good point. I think that there's plenty of room in Me Too. Another big thank you to Mandy. And, I want to say, if there's anyone else with stories like this, you know, I had said back when I did that three stories of Me Too episode, which I encourage you to check out if you didn't hear.

0:35:33 Thomas: I mean, really, I could do a whole podcast of this. And not only do I think that, I think it actually would be a good podcast. And I think you would be a vital podcast because I think if anything, what Mandy said about Me Too, where it's, it's making men aware of how prevalent this is. And I think that helps to change the background assumptions that men who are oblivious to this stuff have. I think really changes it. So if if there's anyone out there that wants to share their story in that way, I'm, I am always open to adding that to my show. I think it is a better use of time than me talking. So if you, I mean, really, if you want to share, uh, I know it's, you know, not everyone does and no one should feel obliged to, but if you ever want to show your story, my inbox is wide open.

0:36:21 Thomas: Let's get to my other clip here. And this is from Chantelle. She's been on the show before talking about FGM, and other issues. Chantelle is brilliant, and she's got a very interesting voicemail here to ponder. Thank

0:36:34 Voicemail: Hey Thomas, it's Chantelle calling from Brussels, Belgium. I just want to call to give you some of my thoughts about the MeToo slash Aziz Ansari stuff. I think my comments are kind of parallel to the issue, it is just something I've been thinking about in relation to all of that. But I was reminded of this essay I read many years ago by Jessica Valenti, I think it was called Yes Means Yes, or something like that. And from what I remember, the premise essentially was that we need to include in sexual education a deeper, more elaborate way of teaching teenagers how to negotiate sexual relationships and how to talk about consent. But we tend to get caught on the consent, as in giving consent or revoking consent, you know, that's sort of like how teaching boys how to identify when consent has been revoked or when it has not been explicitly given. But I think it's equally important to teach boys and girls, girls especially, how to give consent in a way that can be clear.

And I, I'm not trying to say this in any way to victim blame, but I just think it is something that has been very prevalent in my life specifically, so maybe I'll just speak from my own experiences, that when I was coming into my own sexuality, when I first started interacting with boys in a sexual way, I was constantly afraid of being labeled as a slut.

0:38:10 Voicemail: You know, there's so much slut shaming in our culture and I had situations in my life where I did really want to explore with another person, and even just, you know, at the more beginning levels, when I was a young teenager, making out and that kind of stuff. But I was so afraid that if I did these things, I would be labeled a slut. So I would constantly, you know, try to make myself look like a good girl, and I say that in quotations, by saying no, or giving no body language when really I meant yes, because I wanted them to keep trying, so that I didn't, you you know, give in too easy on the first try, right? This is a really confusing way for boys to be socialized also, because of slut shaming, they also have it ingrained in their head that, you know, a good girl, again in quotations, will say no when she actually means yes, or, you know, she'll say no, but if you try hard enough she'll change her mind eventually, right.

0:39:04 Voicemail: So there's the issue of slut-shaming, but then equally as bad, in my opinion, is the opposite end, which is is shaming women and girls for being prudes, for being frigid. You know, so this is also something I've experienced in my life, where if you get a man excited, you know, you might give him blue balls and that is just so rude and it hurts so much, right?

And like, especially as a young teenager, I hung out with a lot of boys and they would complain about girls who gave them blue balls and, oh, how terrible that is, and what a, what a prude she is. So young women, all women, are walking this tightrope between not being a slut and not being frigid, and it's, it's impossible to navigate. And so yeah, in some ways, maybe we do end up giving confusing signals, and it is because we live in a confusing world.

All of this is just, it is so complicated, but I think back to my personal situations that have happened in my life, and there have been times where I have not been clear with consent, like, you know, the person I was with probably had no idea if I meant yes or no or whatever, it's all just a big mess. And I think one way that we can really deal with that is by teaching in sexual education how to say yes, and not just teaching, but empowering young women to, to feel confident saying yes and to clearly say yes.

And, you know, kind of removing as much as we can from society the slut shaming, and removing also from society the stigma against being frigid or being a prude. I just think at the end of the day, whatever you want to do, whether you want to have sex or not, you should feel empowered in that, but you should be empowered to say it clearly, because the other people aren't mind readers and they can't always tell what you want if you don't verbally say it.

0:41:02 Voicemail: So yeah, not directly about the Aziz thing. I'm not going to pretend to know what happened between them or make any sort of judgment about it, but it did make me think of these other things. So I just wanted to share that with you. Thanks as always for such an interesting episode and I look forward to hearing more about your thoughts. Okay, bye.

0:41:22 Thomas: You so much, Chantelle. And again, I want to mainly just let this stand for what it is. You did say you wanted to hear my thoughts. You granted that this doesn't really apply directly, or you're not trying to apply it to the Aziz case. And I think if one were to try, I think that there's room for being coy, but also when someone tries to put your hand on their junk seven times in a row, then I think that that certainly reaches, and you're not into it, by the way, I think that certainly reaches the level of not just playing coy. So, yeah, I mean, I don't think it applies. But I also think Chantelle's very brilliant voicemail does certainly show how perhaps much more valuable a conversation between two women on this topic would have been.

0:42:12 Thomas: And it's something I still want to have. That's a very interesting component of it. I would love to hear more perspectives about that intersection, where it's the feeling of slut shaming leading women to not want to give in too easily or something. It's not something I've thought a whole lot about. And it's something I would love to hear more about. But either way, I've always been against slut shaming. I think that should be a pretty easy issue. I think sex positivity has enormous benefits to everyone anywhere on the gender spectrum. I think it's obviously a good thing when we aren't shaming people for very natural, very human desires. It reminds me of an Onion article, actually, a friend of mine shared that I saw, which was, report, girl who called you a slut in high school posting passionate status about Women's March.

0:43:06 Thomas: My friend said, this is real. I think that's hilarious. But it's a very serious undercurrent, which is why The Onion is so brilliant, which is there are ways in which both men and women perpetuate things like slut shaming and bad gender stereotypes and toxic masculinity, all that kind of stuff. And I thought it was funny enough to share. But at any rate, that's it for the show. Thank you again. A huge thank you to Chantelle and Mandy. Very excellent messages. I think Chantelle's leaves more to discuss that's sort of beyond my knowledge, beyond my ken, not something I want to talk about too much by myself. I would prefer to have a guest maybe or host a discussion between other people on that. But that means it's time to thank my new members at SeriousPod.com slash support.

0:43:54 Thomas: Thank you guys so much. Hey, I want to do something bonus for you and for only members. Sorry, patrons on Patreon, but you're still getting Jake News, which, by the way, there should be another Jake News very quickly. But no, to my members at Serious Pod.com slash support, I want to do some extra stuff. I might tackle the Jordan B. Peterson interview there. That might take a little more prep time. I'm thinking about responding to a voicemail I had that just had nothing to do with the show, so I didn't want to include it, but was a very good one. I might do that as a bonus, so look forward to that, members. But at any rate, I need to thank my new members, and they start with Johnny Hetley. Yes, damn it, it's pronounced Hetley, I bet you I pronounced it Heatley, and that is probably because of the old Sharks player, Danny Heatley.

0:44:43 Thomas: I don't know who he plays for now or if he still plays, but I probably, my mind just went to Heatley, sorry. Sorry, but Johnny Hetley, thank you, Karn the Demons, thank you, Sophie Allen, Sarah the Skeptical Social Worker, get your kids fucking vaccinated. Nice. How much cuck could a globalist cuck cuck if a cuck could cuck?

0:45:05 Thomas: Oh, that's great. Thank you so much for the new pledges. And of course, I need to profusely thank my all-time greats, my top members at seriouspod.com slash support, and they are Scott M., John, Karen Sheetsoul, Emily Gallis, Corey Johnston, host of the Brainstorm podcast and the Hardcore Skeptic, James Hamblin, Andrew the Waddington, Left at the Valley podcast, Luke Voucher, Marco Rosano. Yes, the Marco Rosato. Yes, just listen to the Wayward Willis podcast already. Marcel, longtime patron, first time member. Hire new grad Lucas at offworldstudios.com for front end web dev NSF. Christine called me out on Facebook for not having a clever name. NZ Tim, door-to-door shoulder bullshit salesman.

0:45:51 Thomas: A lot off of Moody's reference. That's a good one. New Orleans will pay France to take us back, please. Ooh, I agree. Zabby, Jay Aldenwalt, thank you guys so much for making the show happen. And that's it for today. As I said, I've got some great interviews coming up. I've Got More Than A Few, and that's where I want to be. And so I don't know which one will be Monday. We'll have to see. Maybe something will strike me. I'm not sure. They're not complete yet. So we'll have to see which one seems like it would be the best one for Monday. But either way, it's going to be a good one. All right. Thank you for listening. And if you are someone who disagreed with that episode or anything that I said, you know, I do hope you'll feel safe to comment, to voicemail, to whatever, to email. I can always read an email if that's how someone would prefer to be heard.

0:46:37 Thomas: I think it's valuable, but it's a conversation I want to keep going, and I do believe women should be leading it, and I think not only did Tracy do an incredible job of that, I think that some of my future guests will also be the ones to pick that torch back up, so I will see you then.