SIO99: Crystal Lee, 2014 Miss America Runner-Up and Entrepreneur

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 99. I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Today, I am going to be joined by Crystal Lee. She was the first runner-up in Miss America 2014, and her platform was Women in STEM. She's she's now the co founder of a Silicon Valley startup, and she has written some articles about sort of the sexism that she's witnessed and some of the prejudging that she has also had to deal with, being who she is, where she is. We talk about that, and it's also very interesting to talk about pageants in general, because because this is something that was her, a major part of her life, and obviously she was incredibly successful at them, but also in this day and age, in the Me Too, and in the time when we're trying to, I don't know, I guess expose a lot of the previously hidden sexism in our society, something like these Miss America pageants are an interesting question.

0:01:21 Thomas: Are they sexist? Are they, should they still be around? I talked to her about that, and I think you'll be interested in what she has to say. So here we go, without further ado, my interview with Crystal Lee. Lee. Crystal, how you doing?

0:01:43 Crystal: I'm great, Thomas. Great to be on your podcast.

0:01:46 Thomas: Absolutely. I'm so happy to have you. We're crossing our fingers that Skype is going to cooperate. We've been, we've been fighting it. That does happen sometimes, but that's okay. Now, Crystal, I've read a couple pieces you're reading. You've written relating to the Miss America pageant and something that happened somewhat recently in the light of Trump. Trump. I guess, first, let's talk about your background, starting there, and then we can, once we get up to the story, we can get back to these pieces you've written. But how did you get into doing these pageants? Because in 2014, you were the runner up for Miss America, which is frankly incredible. So congratulations on that. But how how did you get started in that?

0:02:27 Crystal: Thanks. I had a tiger mom. So I grew up in San Francisco. My mom is an immigrant from Taiwan. And I, as a kid, wanted to be a swimmer. I actually loved spending time in the pool. It was just me and my younger sister. My father is Chinese American. He was born here. Doesn't speak any Chinese at all. But I pretty much was raised in a pretty competitive environment where my mother just signed me up for all sorts of different activities. And if they were competitive, great. I went to a Chinese school when I was, you know, four or five, six, all the way until I was about, you Know, 13 years old. And my my first memories are of my mom asking me why I didn't do better in this Chinese poetry recitation competition.

0:02:32 Thomas: Oh, wow.

0:03:19 Crystal: And it's where we had to, you know, all the little six and seven year olds had to recite a certain famous poem from, you know, Confucius or one of his contemporaries from,you know, dynasties way back. And I just remember, you know feeling like I had to be better than everyone else. And for better or for worse, this competitive spirit ended up following me, um, through middle school and high school. And at the time I really wanted to do sports and I was very much a tomboy, but I give my mom a lot of credit if, you know, and I use the term credit loosely for, um, you know, steering me more towards ballet and really traditionally feminine extracurriculars. I'm in my late twenties now And I look back at that time and I really do have some mixed feelings. I'm, I'm on one hand, eternally grateful to have a mom who, um, you know, essentially programmed me into getting into Stanford and, and doing well in beauty pageants, but it really wasn't on my own terms.

Um, if I can be completely open and candid, I would say that the hardest part about it was I felt like I was fighting my mom for a long time. So around 12 years old, I just refused going to ballet class. I, so I quote unquote fell in with the cool crowd at school. And after class at three 30, I wanted to go hang out with my friends and go to the playground and, you know, gossip.

0:03:57 Thomas: Oh,

0:04:44 Crystal: I didn't really want to go pull on these really uncomfortable, like, you know, skin tight ballet leggings and leotard and go do, you know, controlled plies and releves, um, you know, at the bar, I felt that was very boring and I was much more boy crazy and I wanted to go play basketball and I had the chance to run track. But my mom pulled me out of all of those activities and put me in ballet. So I fought with her. And when it was time for me to apply to high school, my heart was set on going to my local neighborhood high school because that was where most of my eighth grade friends were going. And my mom convinced me one day, she says, "Oh, you should just audition for School of the Arts," which is a local high school and arts high school. It's a charter school where even though it's a public school, you still have to apply to get in. And I showed up to the audition.

0:05:31 Crystal: I danced, you nine plus years of dance training kind of showed through, came through in the audition I got in and unbeknownst to me, my mom enrolled me into that high school. And, and, and by the time I found out it was too late, like I was already committed to this high school yet.

0:05:47 Thomas: What do you mean? Like you, oh, she didn't give you the option of like, been admitted you've now. Do you want to go? She just kind of skipped that step. Is that what you're saying? Oh okay.

0:05:55 Crystal: She just signed me up, you know, it's like, Oh, what does she know? She's 14 years old. Like I'm her mom. I know what's best? Like that's a very tiger mom kind of mentality.

0:05:56 Thomas: Okay. Wow. Yeah. Where do you, where do you think that comes from? All this, you know, because at first it sounded like it was just a drive to win. Like she wanted you to win whatever you're doing, but then it also also sounds like there's a little more to it since she steered you away from sports, like she didn't, was it that you weren't winning in sports or did she want you to specifically be winning in other things?

0:06:05 Crystal: Um, that that's a great question. I think that my mom was trying to hedge, hedge her bets that I would, even if I didn't get into a great school or wasn't very competitive, I'd at least be dateable. So what she, what she means by that is like, Oh, I don't want her growing these big ass deltoids. I don't want her to be burly, you know?

0:06:33 Thomas: So There might be a bit of a, like, an old-fashioned kind of conception of

0:06:45 Crystal: Oh, so old fashioned. Yeah. So old fashioned and And I can't blame my mom for that because it's just, you know, she grew up in kind of an old-fashioned society too in Taiwan where when she was 12 years old, she couldn't have her hair cut below her chin. You know, that was too lascivious. It was too risque. And she had to wear long skirts that covered way past her knees. So even though, you Know, I look back, she ended up marrying someone who, you Now, her parents couldn't even communicate with. So my mom's definitely had her share, fair share of going rogue in her own way.

0:06:46 Thomas: Yeah Okay Yeah Hmm Yeah Yeah But By the time you're, you're old enough to realize those things, you get too, too late to kind of like use those in the argument, you know, you could, you would have been, oh, why did you roll me to school? I know that you wouldn't have done this. But no, it's too yeah

0:07:18 Crystal: It's Tuesday, Yeah, I know, I know. If only I had that foresight, um, at the time, but no, I fought with my mom a lot. And it, it, so she eventually, she eventually supported me doing pageants because I was about 15 years old when I first did my, my, my, um, starter pageant. And by then I was already committed to this arts high school. It was sort of a sink or swim environment where I said, well, I can't beat them. And by them, I mean, my mom, like, I can't beat my mom. I just have to join her. So I just sort of followed, you know, I followed the path that I was meant to follow.

0:07:30 Thomas: Wow.

0:08:02 Thomas: You know, let's pause there for a sec because, I, is 15 like, that might be kind of late for some of these, uh, girls and women who are doing these pageants, because don't they have really, really young, young ones that their moms just shove them through.

0:08:10 Crystal: Yeah. Oh yeah. Those toddler and tiaras. Oh, those were so creepy. There are a lot of, yeah.

0:08:20 Thomas: Oh my gosh. So you never, so you didn't want that level of tiger mom, at least for that.

0:08:27 Crystal: I mean honestly, my mum is not so much of a tiger mum where it's, it's really about her. It's her, she has this intensity towards, I think her children where she just really wanted my sister and I to succeed no matter what, even if, if she wasn't, you know, going to be directly in the picture. So she's very good at being sort of that stage mom where she was behind the scenes, but she wasn't like a, a dance mom where you see those TV shows where there's just as much drama among the parents as there is.

0:08:36 Thomas: Okay. Right. Well, yeah. And the kids are so young. I mean, it's really, like you said, I mean it is just for the parents. Like it's more they're doing it than the kids.

0:09:02 Crystal: Right, right. And, and those toddlers and tiaras competitions, any of those teeny bopper pageants are very much about the parent for better or for worse. I mean, the parents are the ones paying for it. So, you know.

0:09:11 Thomas: Yeah. But I, I bring it up because I think it's interesting in the discussion of, you know, these pageants and what they mean and what they're still doing around. I mean, one part of that equation is kind of this sexualization of kids often. And it's something I'm kind of a little uncomfortable with, to tell you the truth. Is that something, I mean you started at 15, is that something that you were aware of at the time or am I misrepresenting what you went through? Was it not really that way?

0:09:43 Crystal: No, I think you, you are actually pretty spot on. There's a larger arc happening in our culture where kids younger and younger are almost being asked to grow up faster and faster and having having social media and having all of these, you know, rappers and models and, you know, Miley Cyrus doing her thing with Robin Thicke at the VMAs, like moments like that are very much reflective of what sells.

0:10:08 Crystal: I'd say the biggest thing about pageants that I noticed when I was competing in it was that at least with the system that I did, there's a very different sort of set of rules and expectations. If you're not a pageant person, it becomes very easy to lump all of these systems into the same large bucket. So, for instance, if I'm, you know, at an appearance, if I'm at a parade and I have a crown on, people immediately say, oh, you know, is that Donald Trump's pageant? And it's actually no, you know, and different systems have different emphasis. So, yeah,

0:10:26 Thomas: Okay.

0:10:38 Thomas: Well, I will fully admit I am not a pageant person. I apologize if I'm not aware of a lot of these things. It's not something I've followed, but please feel free to educate me on it.

0:10:55 Crystal: The biggest thing I think with Miss America versus Miss USA, and I'm just going to get on my soapbox really really quick is that Miss America does put a lot of emphasis on interview. Um, and then there's a teen program where they don't have a swimsuit competition. So they really feel strongly that, you know, you shouldn't be honest in a swimsuit until you're 17 or 18. Um granted though, you know at the end of the day, a pageant is a pageants and you can't really break away from the historical source of where pageants originated. Um because the Miss America pageant came from um, a tourism spectacle where a bunch of chambers of commerce, um, board members decided to put their heads together and say, Hmm, how are we going to extend the tourism holiday, uh,

0:11:00 Thomas: Sure, sure. Let

0:11:39 Crystal: In Atlantic city?

0:11:39 Thomas: Me guess, were they men?

0:11:41 Crystal: Uh, yeah, yeah. They were definitely men. And they said, let's put together a bathing beauties competition and give families and folks to stick around past, um... the three-day holiday day in September. So it started off very much as a sort of TNA show with lots and lots of skin and lots and Lots of, you know, that which could not be Googled at the time. And, and interestingly enough with the advent of the internet, I think that tends to coincide with, with lowered ratings for pageants because everyone used to tune in to watch Miss America Because that was a singular time on TV When you knew you would be seeing so much skin.

And now all that stuff is sort of on demand. So, you know, where do pageants fit in in terms of relevance in societal fabric? Fabric and, um, that's why Miss America and Miss USA have have, you know, struggled very much to rebrand themselves, remarket themselves as as organization, organizations that empower women, so they give them scholarship money, they give him a platform and a voice, you know, all that other feel-good stuff, um, but at the same time you cannot deny that the the origins of pageants are very much on the superficial and

0:11:43 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:12:56 Crystal: Very much on the objective, you know, the objectification of of women.

0:13:00 Thomas: Absolutely. So back to your story then, um, you started these pageants, did you, like, it was it something, you said you you decided to join your mom because you couldn't, because you couldn't best her in a duel or something, I don't know what, how you're going to beat her, but but arm Wrestling, maybe? No, I don't know. So you embraced it.

0:13:15 Crystal: Yeah. I felt like I had no other option though. You know, if I may be honest, I feel like Thomas, you're like my therapist. I'm just being so open and right now.

0:13:25 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. No, we're not recording this. This is just, we are getting to the bottom of you. We are going to find out what is going on. No, just kidding. Need to do my own therapy first before I help anyone else with their therapy.

0:13:30 Crystal: Yeah, conquer my inner demons. Um, you yeah, I uh, I started to like it because I did see that they were very much a lot of tangible benefits, namely that, you Know, when you're 15 years old, there's no harm in being put in uncomfortable situations. I'm not talking necessarily about, you know, that one guy at that one event who puts his hand on your butt, but more like the guy, although there are those instances too. I more talking about the, you know, the, the event organizers put a mic in your hand and tell you to speak for 10 minutes. Um, those were really great growing opportunities because you're seen as sort of this youth leader, in your community. And so I learned how to speak spontaneously. I learned, you know, I became more of an extrovert, funnily enough, during that phase in my life.

0:14:29 Crystal: And it just gave me something to do on the weekends and something to write about on my college applications. So, yeah, these are great questions and questions that I'm sure other people have, because I would not have known this at all, you knows, if I didn't live it.

0:14:35 Thomas: Get to, what is the path to Miss America?

0:14:44 Crystal: So Miss America program is a nonprofit organization. And so it's comprised of franchise owners who then have like these pods of volunteers at the local level. So there are these local competitions. To give you an example, you have to win Miss San Francisco in order to compete and eventually become Miss California. California. And then you have to obviously become a state. You have to be like Miss Illinois before you can have your ticket to go to Miss America. So these volunteers at the local and state and national level are constantly sort of recruiting and sourcing young women who they think would really do a good job in the program. I'd say a vast majority of these folks really do have a very kind heart.

And they see that, hey, this trumpet player who's 16 and has a big personality personality and is also, uh, you know, a swimmer and as well as a musician, it's like, boom, there's someone usually will, will try to recruit that person to compete at a local competition. And, um, the, the entrance fees are really low. They're usually, you know, in the form of a donation to the Children's Miracle Network.

0:14:44 Thomas: Yeah, Okay.

0:15:54 Crystal: And they're kind of there to just help the family and help the contestant try it out. So that's actually how I got involved. There was someone who was watching my first pageant and said, Hey, you should try Miss, you know, California's Outstanding Teen, which was like the teen program for Miss California at the time. And so I said, sure, why not? And I showed up and I, you Know, won the pageant somehow. And then from that point on, like the rest was history, I just sort of met, I got in with the right crowd, I met sort of all of the folks who had been volunteering with Miss America, some for 4050 years. I mean, I mean, these were silver haired, you know, seasoned, you know, wizened volunteers who remember, you know, the good old days of when Miss America was like this big deal when families all across America would sit down and cluster around their their big boxy TV to watch the pageant, you know, and they all speak as if, you know, all the glory days, right? When Miss America was this heyday.

0:16:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, when you couldn't even really see the picture because it was so bad. Yeah? So How many levels did you have to go through? Like, it's almost like, I'm more of a sports guy. It's like a playoff. So you got like some regional finals, and then you got the county thing. How many levels did you have have to win to get to Miss America? Oh,

0:16:57 Crystal: Yeah.

0:17:12 Crystal: Actually, it's only two. So you win a local and then you win a state. The hardest part is winning the state because it took me three tries and sometimes it's taken girls as many as five or six tries consecutively to make it to Miss America. And then once you're at Miss America, you only have one shot.

0:17:14 Thomas: Okay. Oh, Okay, they only allow you in once, but you can Try the state one, so it's so rather than break it down more, they just the state one, I'm guessing has got to be really large. Okay.

0:17:30 Crystal: Correct. Yeah. Miss Texas has, I don't know, like 70 contestants and the southern states, oh, like Oklahoma, South Carolina, Florida, pageants are a real culture there. It's a big deal, and it's like a trope where you think, oh, you know, the beauty, the prom queen dates the high school, you know, star quarterback, and they both win and they both, you know, are like the the couple in school. Well, that's actually a real thing, like many many former Miss So-and-Sos, you know, end up dating these NFL players, get married, and you know, having their own TV shows on Home and Garden or something, like that, I

0:17:39 Thomas: Wow. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:15 Thomas: That's So interesting. So, 2014, uh, you you you got runner up. Now, that sounds awesome. Were you, were you over the moon at this? Was this a very proud time, or was it one of those, you know, bittersweet kinds of things? What was it like for you?

0:18:34 Crystal: Would like to say I was over the moon and it was 100% positive. But, you know, going back to my tiger cub ways, you know, I was really, really devastated that I that I came so close. But I think having some healthy reality in the form of just time passing was really good for me. Because at the end of the day, you, um, not to, you know, not just not to just sound like I'm I'm eating sour grapes, but like, I mean, it absolutely is is partly sour grapes because, look, like, I could have been the first Chinese American, you know, to win Miss America, like, I even had visions of like President Obama, you know, taking me on his foreign diplomatic trips to China, where I could like translate, you, you know, for Premier Xi Jinping.

0:19:07 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Okay.

0:19:26 Crystal: And I'm like, yeah, that would, yeah.

0:19:27 Thomas: That is really cool, man. Now I'm, now I'm kind of heartbroken too, that that didn't happen. That would have been awesome. I didn't think of it that way. I was kind of, again, more of the neophyte kind of... I was, I was thinking runner up, that's got to be be pretty amazing, but now you're just bringing up all the negatives. Yeah.

0:19:43 Crystal: I think I'm naturally just one of those people who was like, oh, you know I was so close and I expect a lot out of myself and it's hard for me just to see the positive. I really rely on a lot of other people to help me kind of stay optimistic. But I had a great experience. I learned so many things from I made so many amazing friends. But because I didn't win, I feel like I'm now stuck in this interesting double life where I wasn't Miss America. So I don't have to like commit to that passion identity as much, which is where it's interesting in my professional life. Life

0:19:46 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:18 Thomas: Now What to give us an idea, how do you think it would have been different? Like, what has Miss America from that year done? Are you saying it would have been more, you almost could have made, could you have made a career out of it, could you, what would you have done? Hmm.

0:20:35 Crystal: Um, I would, I really would have loved to to go into like acting or entertainment, just because I I really feel strongly that there's a lack of um Asian representation in media, um, not to say that I can't continue To Do that.

0:20:50 Thomas: I Was gonna Say You could Do that, what. But yeah, it's not like every actor.

0:20:53 Crystal: I Just Think Having A platform would be so much easier, you Know, so Much Easier And um, not mention, you know, that the um contracts and sponsorships and, you know, the cash, right, that comes with it. You know, I think a lot of it, though, would have been more of the legacy piece of it. Just knowing that years after I'm gone, people would know that Crystal was like the first Chinese American, because it was a big deal when their first African American won Miss America, or when the first Jewish American, you know, won Miss America. And I still know her name, Bess Meyerson. I don't even know if she's still alive. But but like her and her family will forever kind of bask in that glow of being biologically related to someone who wins a competition like that. So I guess I wanted to earn that for my mom. I want to earn that for my family. And, you know, the goalpost has just changed. So

0:20:56 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, that's true. It gives you a leg up.

0:21:20 Thomas: Yeah, right. Yeah.

0:21:46 Crystal: It's I

0:21:48 Thomas: Yeah, I can totally understand that. So it's less, it sounds like it's less that your life would have been necessarily that different, but more just the honor of it and being the first Asian-American to win. And so it's more on that angle than it would have tangibly changed your life path, do you think? Or is it both?

0:22:09 Crystal: Think you're absolutely right. It's more the former. Yeah, it's more of the former sure.

0:22:12 Thomas: But We fast forward, and then we can get back to uh what I kind of teased at the beginning, which is a piece you've written, a couple pieces, but one, uh, I want to talk about, is it uh, was it a few months ago, I don't remember when it was, but one of the, in the recent pageant, when someone was asked about uh, uh, the uh, rally in Charlottesville, right? When was that? Can you kind of break down what happened and maybe say a little bit about out what you wrote. Yeah.

0:22:37 Crystal: So Miss Texas is one of the top five finalists at Miss America this past year. And she was asked a question about whether or not the Charlottesville demonstrations were properly condemned by President Donald Trump. And she had a really solid opinion, and it was well articulated. Twitter always loves to go nuts whenever any finalist in any beauty pageant nails an answer. And they're just very, I think, hypercritical, and they love to scrutinize. And there was a fair amount of, I think, just surprise that she gave such a good answer.

And I started scrolling through these comments and I was thinking, wow, this is really interesting because if you read between the lines in all of these tweets, there's just this shock that someone who is beautiful and looks good in a swimsuit and is glamorous and, you know, idealizes and epitomizes American beauty also has a noggin and also is articulate and has, you real opinions. Oh my God, a woman with opinions. And my piece was just sort of a comment on what it's like to really answer a question on national TV, Not knowing what it's going to be, coupled with just a general statement about how we really shouldn't be surprised that people who look a certain way could also be super smart. And that goes both ways, not just with beauty pageant contestants, but anyone on their appearance. It

0:23:08 Thomas: Yeah. Right.

0:24:03 Crystal: Sounds like people just always have something to to say about, about beautiful women. And they definitely have things to say about beautiful woman who can speak, either speak really well or speak really poorly as, as we've seen in videos that have gone viral in the past.

0:24:17 Thomas: One Thing I wanted to ask you. Yeah, because that's, you know, I've seen that video of uh, you know, they don't have maps or something, I can't Remember what it is And It's Funny, I can't help it, it's really funny, but I Um, but I just have to wonder, because I, I pulled up your article on CNN, I don't know if it was written for CNN.com or if they just did they mirror it or anything. But on the CNN page is a video talking about the same thing. And it does the frigging annoying thing that they all do where it autoplays. I can't stand it. But anyway, I don't think it's related to your piece. I think it was just a video that autoplayed on this.

And in it, it just showed clips of all these different questions they're asking. And it's so weird to me. I guess I don't know what they're doing. And I don't get what the point of this is, because I don't know, is it an overcompensation, or is it, are they trying to find that schadenfreude moment of like, oh, she's going to say something stupid or, you know, because they're firing all these political questions at them.

0:24:24 Crystal: Like, and such as, yes, it's funny.

0:25:23 Thomas: And it's like, what, what is this contest? Is this a contest for Trump's cabinet or, You know, like, What is, what is the point of that? I, it just strikes me as so odd and it kind of made me a little angry. I'm sure you could tell. I was just like, I don't, first off, we're not solving any world issues, no matter who it is. I mean, even if we ask a Nobel laureate, you know, hey, 15 seconds, tell us about this issue. It's not, you Know, they're not going to solve it. What is the point? What do you think is happening there?

0:25:29 Crystal: Right. Yeah.

0:25:51 Crystal: That's a really good question. And now that you bring it up, it is kind of comical because just tense, you know, literally 10 minutes ago, these women were strutting in bathing suits. With their fake hair and their boobs out for the world to see. And then suddenly they're asked questions that Trump's cabinet can't even answer.

0:26:08 Thomas: It is really comical. Yeah, it's so unbelievable. You were asked about what Syria was it? Was that what?

0:26:10 Crystal: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If the US should intervene in Syria.

0:26:18 Thomas: Oh, my God. God, the government doesn't even know the answer to that question. Like, they didn't even know. You know, it's just such a weird... Sorry, it just drives me nuts.

0:26:25 Crystal: Yeah yeah. No, I mean, honestly, I think the best explanation for it is that Miss America and the competition that it is now has evolved into this over the last couple of years. And so if there was a particularly sticky issue, they would just like the nationals would just change the program and have all other states change the program. So, for instance, if the teens were not showing enough physical activity in their fitness competition, they were just all changed. They would change the fitness criteria so that everyone had to now do two full pushups. But then everything else would stay the same. Uh, so it ends up being this sort of it's a being this of this half evolved pageant with with components that are very traditional coupled with ponents that are components that are almost too progressive, but when you look at it in the context of one whole contest, it's just, it doesn't really match

0:27:08 Thomas: Yeah, that is exactly what I was thinking. And it's like, what I can't decide is this way more blatantly sexist or way less? Like, do you think it came from an attempt to say, okay, we need to maybe not focus on, you know, the sex appeal so much and make it just about this? Well, I was gonna ask, or do you thing it's merely trying to get that viral moment of embarrassing, uh, you know, some poor girl who doesn't, you know, can't cobble to God knows how I would do it. I'm sure I would get up there and be like, I Don't, uh, Syria, what, why are you, uh, uh, you know, like

0:27:20 Crystal: Yes That's exactly where it came from That was original Right. Boom. Instant ratings. Right, couple that with a Steve Harvey and like, you've got, you know, ratings gold for the following year, yeah.

0:27:56 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Like Which do you think it is? Is it both? I I don't know, it's it seems Seems pretty, yeah, good.

0:28:05 Crystal: You know, I just, because, like, I'm more familiar with the Miss America program, and I've never competed in the Miss USA program, so Remember, the differences are Donald Trump ran Miss USA for a long time, and you don't have to have a talent, and your interviews are much shorter for Miss USA, so the pool of girls tends to be much bigger, and it's a a very glamorous pageant, um, Miss America on the other hand, they, you know, have fewer people entering because, you know, who can actually have a talent and be able to answer these questions, and not to mention wants to be doing this, right? That pool is just shrunk and shrunk, so I it was

0:28:11 Thomas: Hmm. Okay. Yeah. Just to clarify these, this, this one was Miss America though, right? It wasn't the Miss USA, the one.

0:28:43 Crystal: Yes, this was Miss America, and from what I know, from the inside, I do honestly believe that Miss America was trying to highlight the fact that and show off the fact that their girls could answer these types of questions, and they, yeah.

0:28:44 Thomas: Okay, yeah. Especially this year, Like, they, I'm sure they wanted that headline of like, this person knows more than Trump about this issue. You, yeah.

0:29:04 Crystal: You know, I I wouldn't put it past them, um, but but it is interesting, right? Because at the end of the day, John Oliver put together a really good, um, piece, kind of, uh, actually was very critical, talking about how Miss America is this ironic, you know, women's scholarship program, but at the same time, um, like, where does the circumference of your body proportions, and why does your physical appearance have any bearing on your mental capacity or, or, or deserve, you know, do your, whether you deserve scholarships or not. Like, there's no correlation between those two factors, which is true.

0:29:27 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's so odd. So you put it best, that's kind of what I was thinking. I think you put really well, which is it's it's this half of all thing, it's like they've tried to take it into modernity, but, you know, there's still the

0:29:50 Crystal: Left behind certain things that keep it super antiquated.

0:29:51 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, like great, I'm glad it's a scholarship, but why are you having to wear an evening gown to get a scholarship or whatever it is? You know, it's like kind of weird.

0:30:02 Crystal: Exactly. Exactly. And, and the audience is much smarter than, than, you Know, these organizers think. Uh, like they're looking at the whole thing here. So if you're braiding and you're talking about how you make available millions of dollars in scholarship, and yet the only women you see are, you know, hetero symmetrically featured, come from, you know, genetically blessed and have, you know, are purely clearly very privileged. You know, you're really talking about a tiny, tiny subset of folks that you're making these scholarships available for, so it's still something that that, you know, we need to think about in terms of how it's going to go into the, you know, the 21st century, um,

0:30:09 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, do

0:30:46 Crystal: Yeah,

0:30:46 Thomas: You think part of it is possibly like men's, men can go into like sports and his story? I know, you know, women's sports is doing better and better. But back in the day, when this was, I'm sure when those, those horny old dudes were coming up in the Chamber of Commerce were coming out with this, I'm sure, women's sports was not so much of a a thing back then, um, is is that part of it, we're like, okay, men have sports, women have this, and we're in again in like an in-between where it's well, women can play sports and Title Nine and and all this kind of stuff, so it's it's kind of this in between, hmm?

0:31:21 Crystal: That's a really good point, I would say that you're absolutely right, because, um, you know, I don't know if pageants will be around in a in a hundred years, I don't know if it'll be around in 75 years. Um, if we get to see more women playing, you know, what if softball had the same viewership as American baseball? Like that would be so huge and such an amazing step in the right direction for women everywhere.

0:31:31 Thomas: Yeah Well, And yeah and another thing I was thinking about is if you wanted to take the the aspects that, I mean, I personally like a lot, you know, why wouldn't it just be some sort of STEM competition or something, you know, like what, like an academic competition, like, if you're trying to get, clearly these questions seem to be designed toward either a getting that shot in front answer, or b, you know, showing off that these women, uh, are smart and can speak well quickly and all that, like, well, then why isn't that the competition, like, why isn't it, you know, the, uh, some sort of science scholarship or math scholarship, whatever it is, you know, hmm.

0:32:19 Crystal: Yeah. It's funny you bring that up because there's now this big STEM component in Miss America where they give two separate scholarships for, um, state title holders who are STEM, you professionals. And I actually, you know, was recipient of, of one of them because I work in tech and I was, you know, I majored in biology. So, you know, speaking to, speaking to our earlier point about this being a half evolved kind of thing, that's both very 1930s and 2017, like that's an example of them trying to check that box, but not fully committing to a new direction that arguably might actually buy them another hundred years if they did it the right way. So I clearly have very, you know, strong opinions about

0:32:24 Thomas: Oh, okay, oh, excellent, yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:33:02 Crystal: It. Um, and

0:33:03 Thomas: Well, I was gonna ask you, I mean, you've already expressed a lot of this, but looking back, I guess it hasn't been too many years, but looking back on it, I mean, how do you feel about it, is this, was it, a is it something where, do you, did you feel a little bit like, you know, objectified, did you feel a little used, or do do you feel positive things about it, that it got, it got you this opportunity, you know, these scholarships and that kind of thing? How do you, how do you feel about it personally now?

0:33:03 Crystal: Right.

0:33:26 Crystal: So, so I personally think that I learned a lot from it and I selfishly would do it all over again, just because of the money that I was able to earn. Like I paid for, um, a fair amount of my Stanford tuition through, uh, scholarship earnings and all these checks, you Know, went straight to the institution. So my mom didn't have to make as as large a checkout. In some quarters, she didn't have to make a checkout at all, because the funds had covered it entirely. And I love that. It meant that I didn't have to wash dishes in the dining hall when I was studying junior year. So from that perspective, I loved it and wouldn't trade it for a thing. Where I think I have some mixed feelings about whether or not I will send my own daughter, if I have a daughter one day, into pageants would be the whole objectification, um, sort of vulnerable place that every pageant contestant willingly puts herself in, and and that's because a lot of times there's such an emphasis on on traditional femininity and a lot of, uh, qualities like being amicable, being obedient, being

0:33:36 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

0:34:31 Crystal: Likable is a huge component of pageantry, like learning to be likable is both selfishly something I'm glad I kind of learned how how to do. Like, it's as if it's something I can just turn on and turn off now. Not really. But I learned how to kind of up the charm and up the ante when it comes to just, you know, being someone that old white men feel really comfortable around for better or for worse. Um, but I don't, you know, I don't know if I would feel comfortable putting, recommending, you know, that other young women go do because they might not have the same reactions to certain situations. They might have folks who pushed harder, right. And in a not so good way, in a really predatory way.

0:34:42 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:35:11 Crystal: And, and, you know, you've got to think about the opportunity costs too. Here you have a young woman who I'm guessing is, let's say, let's say 14 years old, right? The amount of time that she would spend preparing for a pageant, you know, working out, studying up on evening gowns. What if she spent that time working on a science project, or what if she just spent that time learning to horseback ride or how to build a CPU, right. That's an amazing spent use of her time as well. So I'm thinking, do you really want to be doing appearances where you're out in the public with a bunch of people older than you who might want to take advantage of you? And yet, at the same time, what if you spent those hours on the weekends volunteering for the Lions Club, right?

There's so many other things that a young woman in today's day and age could be spending her time doing. And I can't say that pageants are unequivocally the best thing. It just sort of depends on her personality and of course her parents and whether she's ready for what she's headed in for because culturally, like I said earlier, in the South there's a lot of support for these young women to go into pageants. It's almost as if, you know, when they're walking down the street going to church and you're wearing your Sunday best, you know, a little eight-year-old might have her little chin touched by an older woman saying, "Oh, sweet darling, you're gonna be Miss Georgia one day," and she grows up wanting to be Miss Georgia, right? Like that's just culturally so imbued in that culture, um,

0:35:30 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:36:32 Crystal: Whereas

0:36:32 Thomas: Yeah. It's a little different here in California.

0:36:33 Crystal: Yeah In California it's like, you, you could be an astronaut. Here's a physics class that you can take on Con Academy and, right, like it's a completely different cultural environment.

0:36:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to resist making the conclusion that there's, you know, some tie-in with religion and gender roles there, but we can leave that alone. That is a really excellent point you made about the being likable kind of thing. I hadn't even, that hadn't even occurred to me, but now that you say it, it makes so much sense. And I think it's a great tie-into where you are now, which is in the tech industry, specifically in Silicon Valley. And there's been a lot of questions about sexism in that area. Actually, one minute before we go into that, I wanted to, just back on the sports comparison, I was just thinking about it. And I was trying to think of like, what if we did that to our male sports stars? You know, like what if after the big game, they pop on the interview and they're like, Syria, yay or nay?

0:36:43 Crystal: Totally

0:37:33 Thomas: Should we go into that? Should we, do we, what about the Paris Climate Accords? LeBron, what do you think? You know, and then like try to make a fool out of them or slash, you know, I suppose, honor them if they got an answer correct or something. It would be a really weird thing. Like we don't do that.

0:37:51 Crystal: Right.

0:37:51 Thomas: We do, I know, yeah. Well, LeBron's pretty sharp. I picked a bad example. I should have picked someone who just is totally just a meathead, but LeBron's a pretty sharp guy, but, uh, but we don't really do that. We give these, they give these just nothing interviews. We're like, uh, hey, uh, you sure did. Uh, I watch a lot of hockey, so it's always like, so how was that goal? We, yeah, we moved the puck and now we scored, yep, definitely, I was like, yeah,

0:37:51 Crystal: Right. The funny thing is, even if we ask LeBron that, I think most, most people would listen to him. Like they'd be like, yeah, sure.

0:38:19 Crystal: Yeah. We, we overcame adversity.

0:38:22 Thomas: Came together, passed it, shoot the puck, it's like just nothing, you know? Hockey interviews are actually the worst of all of them. They're so, they are so bad. I watch, you know, I watch hockey and football. I don't, I don't watch a lot of other sports, but here and there, you know, I've seen baseball and basketball and they talk about it, but hockey is just so bad. So yeah, we got to move the puck, you have it, you don't, and they don't expect anything of them. They're not expected to both be a superstar in sports. And also, let's, let's talk about foreign policy here real quick. You know, it's just kind of a weird, it's so bizarre, but it would be funny if we did that.

0:38:54 Crystal: Right.

0:38:54 Thomas: But, and then conversely, like it could be the other way where it's like, why aren't the pageant questions? You know, why aren't they stuff like, I don't know, maybe they are, maybe you're going to tell me that they do have this too, but I don't know, life outlook or happiness or, you know, body image or, just positivity, just things that it's like general life stuff.

0:39:14 Crystal: It would make sense for them to be answering.

0:39:16 Thomas: Yeah, I mean, and again, not to say that they don't know something about all these other issues or political issues, but it doesn't really make sense as to why it's tied in. I don't know. Do they have those questions? Did they ask you guys about everyday stuff or getting your views on, I don't know, happiness or anything like that?

0:39:17 Crystal: Yeah, right.

0:39:36 Crystal: Yeah they do. There's a 10 minute personal interview that the audience doesn't see. It's just with the judges. Um, and, and how you do in those interviews determines whether or not you even have the chance to, to answer an onstage question so a lot of that is sort of done in the pre-filtering stages

0:39:40 Thomas: Oh, okay. Gotcha. That's not good for ratings. That's, yeah, that's too... Actually getting to know someone and hearing more about them in depth is not good for ratings. They need that 15 second...

0:39:55 Crystal: Yeah not good for ratings they need the the fast action the blood pumping stuff

0:40:04 Thomas: Yeah, they need the... Gaddafi! Yay or nay? I don't know why we're asking them. Okay, but anyway, I just had that thought. I thought it was funny. But back to where you are now. Now, you're part of a startup, is that right?

0:40:18 Crystal: Yeah, so I work at a startup, it's called LifeSite. We're a small company, still two and a half years into business. We're at 12 people and our product helps financial advisors manage information with their clients.

0:40:32 Thomas: That's excellent. So you've utilized that education well, and it sounds like you're in a really cool field. So what can you say about the kind of the sexism in tech that we've seen lately? I mean, you know, I interviewed James Damore about his thing. Um, that was interesting. Do you have any general thoughts? Have you had any experiences, uh, that, that, that would, uh, would be interesting for the audience to hear?

0:40:52 Crystal: Yeah. You know, I, I did have some board members ask that I remove all of my Miss America pageant experience off of my bio when that, when fundraising and I couldn't really fault them for it because I even could tell that with certain conversations, when that person knew that I was Miss California, it often was a completely different vibe. Um.

0:41:20 Thomas: Interesting.

0:41:20 Crystal: It was more of a, oh, like she's sort of a beauty queen bimbo type of person. Maybe not the bimbo part, but there's always this, like, sort of novelty where it's no longer like I'm an equal, it's not longer like I'm a partner. It's like, whoa, like she did that, and then they start, then I think that they start thinking about me in a swimsuit, and they go and they Google me during meetings.

0:41:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:44 Crystal: And it's just like really uncomfortable when I'm trying to really talk about cloud security infrastructure.

0:41:44 Thomas: So Did, did it feel like people were really taking you less serious, like, would they put you in a box of, oh, okay, she's a pretty face that they have here or something like that, right?

0:41:58 Crystal: They'll, they'll never say it, of course. And they'll never treat me differently openly. It comes across more in terms of how much they take me seriously, if that makes sense. It's like, like, if I'm in an interview, if I'm in a meeting with my boss, who's, you know, in his 50s and a male, you know, that they just start making more and more eye contact with him. And, and lo and behold, I sort of just get relegated into more and more this observer position. Of the day, I just want any business conversation to go in a productive direction for the company. It's really not about me interjecting myself or my own ego. But it's just been an interesting thing I've sort of noticed, that with conversations where they don't know that I was Miss California, or if they didn't do their research and I wasn't introduced in that regard, because my boss is very proud of that. And I think does very much like to introduce me as, as a former runner up to Miss America.

Um, but, but when he doesn't, or when he forgets to do that, I noticed that I feel like I have more of a, it's more of level playing field. You know, I end up being like, they make more eye contact with me. I'm a little bit more engaged in the process during and after.

So, you know, the whole pageant thing is, it was invaluable because it taught me so so much, but I just can't help but feel like, what if I had become a swimmer, and become a competitive swimmer, and also learned discipline,

0:42:00 Thomas: Right. Right. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

0:43:23 Crystal: Also developed long-term relationships, and, you know, learned all of those other skills that would have come with, with being an athlete, a traditional athlete. You know, I don't think I could have been good enough to go to the Olympics at all, but I, I never know, right, and no one will ever know, so that's, that's the largest tragedy ever, but it's okay. It's such a first world problem. I mean, these are all just thoughts in my head.

0:43:39 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, of course. But it's also something that I think it sounds like it could be frustrating where it's not like you ever, as you said, it's not like you ever have proof or you have someone in an email or well, some people might but for you anyway, it sounds like you don't ever have someone openly belittling you or anything like that. But it's these subtle things. Like I didn't even think about the fact that, you know, how often if you're in a meeting, you, you would you just automatically, because of our societal like stereotypes tend to favor the old white male is like, okay, he's the person in charge and knows what's going on. You know, I didn't, that's, it's interesting how many of those little subtle things that, you know I, I, now I'm questioning like, shoot, I hope I never did that, but maybe I did. I don't know. And it's like, yeah, yeah.

0:44:28 Crystal: Yeah, no, I think unconscious Bias is a, is very much a real thing. And when it comes to Silicon Valley and especially with soliciting investment, um, investors are super, you know, risk averse. They're risk tolerant to the degree that obviously if they're a venture capitalist, they're, they're playing in a very risky space as is.

So what happens, what I found out is if if they're taking so much risk as is with the model and the stage at which they're investing at a company early on, they tend to really want to cut back on all other areas of risk. Namely, I want to make sure I go with a conservative type of founder. I want to go with someone who's got a proven track record.

After a certain amount of growth, I want swap out the founding team and maybe replace them with big guns and guys who know how to scale and know how to really return and grow this company so it can go public or be be sold so I make my money back. There's... there's an interesting phenomenon where I think these investors, they just can't help themselves, like they just feel more comfortable going with, um, heuristics that they've seen work really, really well. And so far that has been, you know, the nerdy white dude that, um, or maybe the group of, um, Indian founders who all went to an IIT back in India,

0:45:45 Thomas: Interesting.

0:45:46 Crystal: You know, have all already done startups that have done well. So they, I, you know, since Katrina Lake of Stitch Fix brought her company public, I don't think, you know, before her, I can't think of another prominent young, you know, young Asian woman who has really returned a significant, you know, amount back to investors that's as high profile in terms of, you you know, bringing a company public.

0:46:11 Thomas: Yeah. That's a, that'S A tough thing. Yeah. You're you know, people who, they're putting a lot of money on the line, so they, they, they're gonna go with their stereotypes and they're good, yeah, but I'm, it, it sounds like you haven't had this experience, or you would have brought it up, but I, I, I'm pretty sure, uh, that some of the the recent big scandals in in Silicon Valley have been with like the big money guys, you know, in that position of power, and the, the, uh, the power dynamic there when it comes comes to prospective investing in companies, trying to take advantage of women at these companies. That sounds horrifying. I don't know if that's anything that you have experience with or know anyone that you'd want to comment on.

0:46:18 Crystal: They have their opinions. Yes.

0:46:35 Crystal: Yeah.

0:46:53 Crystal: I luckily haven't experienced it personally, I think because I have a really great CEO who has kind of blocked and tackled for me, so to speak. I personally know over five women who've experienced exactly what's been shared in the media. And it's all absolutely true. It's horrifying. I'm glad that there's finally, you know, this moment of recognition that something that's been happening for a long, long time is not okay. I saw a funny tweet the other day. It says if after Hugh Hefner died, there was like this invisible shield that has like suddenly dissolved. And now all of these predators are now like left unprotected since Since Hefner has died.

0:47:03 Thomas: Okay. Yeah, He was like the

0:47:38 Crystal: He was the last Hefner. So seriously, since he died, you know, it's like everyone's no longer safe. You know, the Weinsteins and the Kevin Spaceys of the world better be afraid, better be very afraid.

0:47:38 Thomas: Last horcrux or something, yeah, interesting. Well, I have to imagine yeah, I, I have to imagine that that kind of thing's got to discourage women from from trying this kind of things, you know, how, how many times do you have to, if you're going to be, you, a woman in Silicon Valley who wants to start, do her own startup as an idea or something, I mean, how frustrating would it be to to have to deal with that on top of everything else that's already a difficult thing to do, uh-oh.

0:48:14 Crystal: Yeah, it is. And ironically, that would be, you Know, an argument for why pageants actually is good preparation. It's so sad to say that. That. Cause I've been, well,

0:48:21 Thomas: Yeah. Full full circle, yeah, you've got to go, why do you say that, just the, what about it, yeah.

0:48:27 Crystal: You know, I've been at appearances where people have been really inappropriate with me, and I, you know, a lot of the time I say, you know, that's absolutely not okay, and I'll just turn around and leave. But there've been some funny situations where I've developed almost like the sign language with my boyfriend, where if I'm at an event and some guy's really creepy, I'll start rubbing my ear a lot, and if my boyfriend starts seeing me rubbing my ear, he'll just come and he'll say, I'm sorry, like she has to take a phone call, so he'll politely excuse me from whatever social situation I'm in, because he knows that my cue for get me out of here is me rubbing my ear. Um, so if I'm, if, if this particular person is someone whom I don't want to piss off, like I'll, I'll use the ear rubbing situation. But if it's, um, you know, if it, if it someone, if I'm feeling particularly bold, I'll just, I'll just walk away or I'll just say, please, you know, please, you're making me feel really uncomfortable.

0:49:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:49:21 Crystal: Um. You know, I'll straight up tell them that. So, but, but like pageants has put me in enough of these situations to be able to have that own personal gauge of creepiness. I've met enough people just randomly, right. Whether it's at, you know, this gala or that community center or this VA hospital or that retirement home where I just, I feel like I've gotten a better honed sense of whether I'm, I'm whether I'm talking to someone who is sending me weird vibes or, or if I'm just with someone who's pleasant and totally, totally nice. I, I, um, it's, and, and in the, so in the professional world though, where it gets tough is if, you know, you're really trying not to piss off someone who, who frankly you want something from, like, I need that intro.

0:50:01 Thomas: That's why that that investor dynamic is like so, uh, dangerous.

0:50:06 Crystal: Yes. That was so hard. And if their egos get hurt by you saying you're making me uncomfortable, then it's like, shoot, you know, I should have just swallowed my pride and

0:50:07 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. I wonder if yeah I wonder if they're going to be objective in their decision to, yeah. Invest Like, yeah, yeah,

0:50:18 Crystal: Absolutely not. Yeah. No, I think that anyone who's offended in that regard would would find a way to scorch earth and make it really difficult for you, and it's that fear that keeps perpetuating this cycle of women feeling like they, you know, stand more to lose by speaking out than they stand to gain by empowering other women to say, hey, it's okay, hashtag me too.

0:50:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:50:38 Crystal: It's OK that you experience this, but it's not OK that we let this continue, like, swept under the rug, yeah.

0:50:44 Thomas: Right, right. At time. Is there anything that you wanted to make sure to say or anything you wanted to add that you didn't get a chance to before we called it?

0:50:45 Crystal: Yeah. Um, you know, not really. I, I want to thank you for giving me this chance to be so candid. Um if anyone has listened to this part of the podcast and has any reactions, you know, you can feel free to Instagram DM me. Um I'd love to hear from, from your listeners, from your smart, handsome, um, capable, um beautiful, beautiful listeners out there.

0:51:10 Thomas: That flattery will get you everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, well, Throt, Is there anywhere you want to direct people to find maybe if you write something in the future, or

0:51:18 Crystal: Sure. So, um, yeah, I'll just post it either on my Twitter, which is at, uh, C-R-I-Z-Z L-E-L-E, so like Chrysalie, um, kind of like how Snoop Dogg would say my name, so to speak, then on Instagram it's just at Crystal Clues. I also have a website, uh, just crystalalee.com, just in case anyone, you, you know, wants to send me some reactions, good, bad, or ugly, would love to hear it.

0:51:49 Thomas: Excellent, yeah, well, congratulations on, I, I mean, really, you've accomplished a lot, I know it seems to be your, your view, uh, to that, whatever it is, it's not quite good enough, I, I got a little bit of that vibe from you, but you've established a lot

0:52:03 Crystal: I got to work on that. Yeah.

0:52:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, as your therapist, I'd advise you to do your best to enjoy what you have. And yeah, absolutely.

0:52:11 Crystal: Thanks, Thomas. I'm taking that to heart. I know you would say that if it wasn't sincerely administered.

0:52:17 Thomas: And thank you so much for coming on, being willing to talk about this stuff. And interesting pageants find themselves in an interesting place right now, I think. And it's cool to hear about the nuances of that from someone who's gone through that. So thanks so much.

0:52:26 Crystal: Yes.

0:52:56 Thomas: Thanks again to Crystal. That was a really fascinating conversation. I think these pageants, it's really interesting. It's a curious thing that they're trying to kind of have it both ways. And when their history is what it is, I just wonder if it like if they had to do it over again, if they were to evolve now, starting now and not starting with some really sexist past, what would they look like? You know, would it be more of an academic competition or something like that? I don't know. I really think the way they are now is it's a bit problematic in some ways. And this trying to ask these women under the spotlight and the 15 seconds and high pressure situations, detailed foreign policy questions seems absurd to me.

0:53:42 Thomas: Absolutely ridiculous. But I I suppose I've said my piece on that, so thank you so much for listening as usual. Thank you most of all to my patrons at patreon.com slash seriouspod for making the show happen, and I will see you all on Thursday. I don't know what I'm going to talk about, but maybe it'll be the tax bill, although I think we already know enough to know it's ruining the country in my opinion. It's going to be really bad, but I don't know, maybe we'll go somewhere else. We'll see. I like to keep my options open in today's ridiculous news cycle. So you'll have to be surprised or maybe I'll do another poll on Patreon either way I'll see you guys Thursday