SIO95: The Franken Fallout, with Dr. Kristi Winters and Charone Frankel

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:27 Thomas: Inquiries Only, this is episode number 95, I'm your host Thomas Smith. Alright, today's conversation is about... Sort of in the backdrop of now that we're finally taking accusations of sexual assault and harassment, for the most part taking them seriously, which I think hopefully everyone would agree is a good thing that we are starting to do, where do we go next? How do we decide what's the appropriate course of action, both maybe legally, both socially, and how do we Deal with it when it's people we like, who we wouldn't have thought would be perpetrators of these things. There are so many questions, far more than I'm sure we can answer, but with me to discuss this is going to be Charone Frankel, host of Habeas Humor, been on the show before, and And another past guest, Dr.

0:01:18 Thomas: Kristi Winters. I've got lots of questions for them. There's all kinds of things to talk about. So let's get to it. Let's start this conversation that I think is a very vital one and one that I'm sure will be ongoing. Am joined right now by Charone Frankel and Kristi Winters, two women who have been on the show before, and I'm very pleased to have you both back. How are you doing, Charone?

0:01:50 Charone: Great, thank you. Thank you for having me back.

0:01:52 Thomas: Hey, thank you for coming on. And how are you, Kristi?

0:01:55 Kristi: Doing very well, thanks. And also, thanks for inviting me to be on the panel.

0:01:59 Thomas: It is my pleasure. I am...

0:02:00 Charone: We've made it to round two. Yeah,

0:02:04 Thomas: Yeah, well, see, this is the... I guess you guys have to, you know, duke it out and then there'll be a winner or... No, that's not how it works. No, I am really happy to have on. There's so much going on. You know, I kind of want to start with a general and sort of a personal perspective question. I'll start with you, Charone. In the light of all these allegations that are coming out that are finally, it seems as though they're finally being taken seriously, I just want to know for each of you, how has that affected you? Like, how do you feel about this? What are the positives? What arethe negatives? Could you just talk about it from your experience?

0:02:40 Charone: It's a lot. I mean, it is great. Obviously, I will never say against people who come out with stories, or holding people accountable who do things. It is confusing. I think it's mostly positive, but it's making everybody, now that society is finally having this conversation education on a large scale that, you know, we all have to look back at our lives and think about the things that have happened to us and the things that we may have done to other people. And, you know, and then what do we do about that? And it's all very confusing.

0:03:17 Kristi: It's been an emotional week, several weeks, because I, you know, there was, well, if we think back, we can definitely see a line in the way that like the Roger Ailes, Bill O'Reilly situation was handled not so long ago. And then there seems to be this sort of post-Trumpian, post-resistance change in what people in our society are willing to tolerate. And the Me Too campaign, at least for me, seemed to tap into the energy of the resistance.

The fact that when people were pouring into the streets, they saw they weren't alone. And when that hashtag kicked off, I mean, I also hashtagged Me Too, like a lot of women did and men as well. And so watching all of the stuff coming out, it's it's really awful, right? Um, I I was incredibly disappointed in Louis CK, and I think the rumors have been floating around before, but I'm in Europe, so I don't really kind of follow entertainment, so I don't have any kind of clear recollection of those accusations being made before, but then, you know, uh, seeing Al Franken as well, just being someone who, people that I thought, you know, like got things, um, and then to watch things fail that badly. And there's so much. And then it's not just the stuff coming out. It's just the things we're learning about these men and what they did.

And it's really, I think, for people maybe who've gone through it themselves, seeing other people's experiences, it a little bit relives your own. And then you empathize so much with what, what is being described, you know. I think there was just a piece I saw about house cleaners and hotels who have walked in and been invited into rooms, you know, when to clean them, and there

0:05:00 Kristi: Were men masturbating and invited them in, knowing while they were doing that. And so, yeah, this is so, it's it's a horrible undergrowth of our society, and it's therefore really, at least I find it quite emotionally disturbing when these new accounts come out and then to read about the information. But at the same time, just like with therapy, you know, you have to get this out in order to start the healing. You have to really grapple with this ugliness. And I think it's ugly for men and women. But obviously, I think this is disproportionately affecting women, and why you're seeing a lot of women coming out, but also, to not dismiss it, men too stepping forward as the campaign advanced. So I think in the long term, it's going to be positive, but just like maybe sometimes taking your medicine and is really awful to get better later on.

0:05:47 Kristi: I feel like we're going through the awful phase, and I had no idea it was going to keep going like this, and going and going.

0:05:53 Thomas: Yeah, you said a couple weeks and I was trying to think like, gosh, how long has it been? I actually don't, I don't know that it's, it feels like the last at least a month or two, right? I mean, it's just been pretty nonstop, but so one counter reaction that I see a lot online that is this counter of, oh, this is the sexual revolution has finally gone mad. What do you say to that kind of reaction where it seems to be this oversensitivity of, well, what now? Can I even hit on someone? Can I even do anything? What do do you think or what do you say when you encounter that?

0:06:29 Charone: I'm glad you asked that because I was just thinking about that. There's a lot of things going on now because this is getting so, so much coverage in the media and social media, and the social media, um, and it's, you know, I sympathize with people who are going a little crazy, and know, and are maybe, uh, having a lot thrown at them at once and are having to think about things that they haven't thought about.

I do not, I will not go so far as to say there is a war on men, that's bullshit. I know that that's been coming out in social media, but, um, you have more people, it's kind of like this chain reaction.

More people are coming forward to report sexual assaults because society has started believing victims more and holding offenders accountable more, and the concept of consent is being brought up to date, and this really freaks many people out because they think the expansion of what bad touching includes has gotten out of control, and people are having trouble with the fact that they are now being labeled sexual batterers for doing things that many people have thought for a very long time were no big deal. If you didn't get consent for, like, kissing someone, you know, and now we're thinking that, and people are like, well, what you mean if I kiss someone without their consent? That was, you know—under the law, it would not be sexual assault, because the law is very clear on that, it has to be the boobs, the crotch, or the ass, pretty much, but,

0:07:51 Charone: You Know, it's—exactly, Exactly, um, but yeah, like, that but that is like, but we know that kissing is like an intimate activity, so it goes under there, you know, and then even, you knowand then it's been, I've been seeing articles circles, like, about how you shouldn't, like, even things that are not, like, really intimate, like just hugging, like you shouldnít teach your kids they have to just hug people, you know, people should have to ask, and that kind of thing, and people think thatís out of control, but you know what, a lot of people have been made really uncomfortable for a long time, uh, because they didnít get asked for that kindof thing,

0:07:51 Thomas: I think that's the precise legal language in the statute. Yeah.

0:08:26 Thomas: Yeah,

0:08:26 Charone: You and even, Even for things that have been considered for a longtime a big deal, such as stuff like Donald Trump is famous for doing, like stuff that, I mean, he's admitted it himself, and multiple women have said that they, you know, they sat next to him on a plane or something, and he just put his hand up their skirt and touched their vulva.

And, you know, that's pretty outrageous, but historically, the way to handle that is that the woman just kind of puts it behind her and keeps quiet, particularly if the offender was rich or powerful. Like, yes, it was wrong, but what are you going to do about it, you know?

And society has not traditionally had a remedy for that kind of thing other than maybe resolving it in a bar fight if the victim had a husband or a boyfriend, you know, but to say that, like, now people are advocating, you know, on a mass scale, that when every kind of sexual assault or sexual harassment happens, the perpetrator should be held accountable, and it should not be kept quiet.

I think that is unequivocally a good thing, but it also, um, it, it's, it's kind of blows people's minds that, um, that, like, things that you know, there's probably not one of us that hasn't touched someone's butt, you know, like, you know, I'm thinking like 13 years of age or something like that, you know, like there's not one of us who, um, a little different from, I mean, it's, it's kind of, I guess, I can't pretend that it's not different for men and women.

I don't remember, but I've definitely been with men who have, um, who like, done sexual things with me where I didn't want them to. I do not think I've done that with men. It's, it's definitely kind of different whenever you ask men, and I guess, you know, like, I would like to be able to talk about it gender neutral, but I don't think you can. But people are,

0:08:26 Thomas: Yeah,

0:09:59 Charone: You know, my ex-boyfriends would be like, what do you mean that was sexual battery? I'm like, well, yeah, it was, you know, but it was always taboo, like, if you even wanted to talk about it in public, they would say, what are you talking about? That's a good guy, you can't call him a rapist, that's

0:10:14 Kristi: Well, you know, when I hear that, and I'm hearing more, like, backlash, you know, kind of people and the men who are now complaining, you know, can I flirt with someone? I'm like, oh, do you mean that you actually have to be careful where you touch someone so they don't get the wrong impression, or make sure you don't touch someone without their permission? Are you saying that you have to watch your language now so that someone doesn't get the wrong idea? Welcome to the world of women. When you add how you dress, where you go at night, when you drink, then get back to me. But I think this is it. There are boundaries now that men perhaps are thinking, well, you know, here's somewhere I can't go. I can't just be free and do and say whatever I want. I have to control myself and restrain myself because there might be consequences. Yeah, I hear you. I hear ya. In

0:11:00 Thomas: And I love too that it's been, and actually I had a caller in a previous show mentioned that in the 90s, Rush Limbaugh was saying, well, it's such an overreaction. There's so much, the definition of sexual harassment is just out of control. And so it's a little funny that that same argument has been used for going on, you know, 25, 30 years of it's out of control. And yet, what I am so blown away about now, I don't, you guys let me know what you've seen, but I haven't seen any complaints that are at least in the mainstream media, anywhere near the mainstream stream media of this guy once looked at me weird. Like, it's not as though there were a bunch of people coming out against, you know, Weinstein or somebody like Weinstein where it was, yeah, one time he looked at me, you know, it is all very serious stuff.

0:11:51 Thomas: You know, the stuff that is making the headlines is incredibly serious. I don't know where that reaction is coming from of, oh, what next? I can't even flirt with somebody. It's like, how are you jumping from incredibly profound, disgusting sexual assault to that? And it's very confusing to me. But am I not seeing something? Am I missing something?

0:12:12 Charone: Some of it is is disingenuous, and and some of it is like, I think we kind of maybe have a human tendency to go to slippery slopes in our mind behind, but

0:12:21 Thomas: Are they looking at some Tumblr account somewhere that I'm not looking at? Is that always what it is? They're just looking at someone who overreacted to something, and then painting that as them? Yeah.

0:12:29 Kristi: My experience, anti-feminists aren't very original. They've been making the same arguments in suffrage. So things are out of control. Men are being constrained. You know, women are getting wild. They're getting too much power has always been the rallying cry of anti- feminists.

0:12:36 Charone: Yeah Yeah, yeah, did you see those things, those um, memes or whatever that circulated on Facebook a while back that, like, the the posters they used to have for, like, during the women's suffrage movement where they were telling men like oh you're gonna be like beaten by your wife and stuff if she can and vote all

0:12:57 Thomas: Oh, yeah.

0:13:02 Kristi: Yeah, you'll be stuck at home with the kids while she goes out to do politics. That was a nightmare for them.

0:13:07 Charone: Right

0:13:08 Thomas: My absolute favorite argument from that is, Well, a man's wise vote is either going to cancel his out or just be redundant with his. Yeah, I mean, those are the two possibilities, but that's true of any two people in the world.

0:13:18 Charone: Yeah

0:13:20 Kristi: Can I tell you, actually, in British political science into the the 1970s, when they were coding household occupations for people in a household, if they interviewed the man, the husband and the wife, if They both had separate jobs, the whole household was a code, it was coded to the man's economic status, not to his wife's, even though she was an independent earner. So that mentality carried with us even into political science in the 1970 s.

0:13:46 Thomas: Yeah. So another question kind of related to this. You think that a lot of people are also very worried about the burden of proof? You know, I know, apologies, I'm throwing out these things I'm seeing on Twitter, but It seems to be pretty prevalent with the sort of the right slash the new centrist, atheist kind of BS is all of a sudden there's this one category of crime that it's no longer, you know, if the feminists have their way, it's not going to happen. It's no more innocent until proven guilty. People say, believe women, you know, believe victims, believe women, let's listen to them. Is that tantamount to saying guilty until proven innocent?

0:14:24 Kristi: Are two courts that we're really dealing with now, especially with the social media phenomenon that we are experiencing. We had it before. We have it in a new way now. We have courts of law and we have the court of public opinion. The allegations here, because of time, there are crimes that can be prosecuted because of the statute of limitations or whatever else, or the people aren't interested in pursuing a criminal case. They just want to come forward. We shouldn't, I don't think that we have an obligation as a public to hold ourselves to a legal standard because we're not adjudicating guilt or innocence. We're looking at the credibility of the people making the claims and how the person accused responds, and we have to make up our own minds.

0:15:10 Kristi: And that's the court of public opinion. Opinion. And I think the challenge that we're facing right now is it kind of comes back to this whole process that we'RE going through. When these allegations come forward, how are we now dealing with them? And we've seen with the Weinstein allegations, you know, I had a tweet that said the Weinsteen victim flowchart, one woman equals it's he said, she said, 10 women equals they're after his money, 30 women equals why didn't you say something sooner?

0:15:41 Kristi: And that's what it feels So with the Weinstein case, there was just so much overwhelming evidence that people basically came to the conclusion that he was a sexual predator. And with Roy Moore, too, when you have women who are in their 50s and 60s, some of them are Democrats, but some of whom are Trump voters and Republicans themselves coming forward, and they're not looking for money or fame. They just want they think people should know and they're feeling emboldened and they feel like they will be listened to. And I think we do have a moral obligation to those on the left not to listen and believe unconditionally, but take the initial claims and investigate them. Don't dismiss them on their face. And if they seem credible, then there's a reason, you know, then if the person wants to come up and defend themselves, you should listen to that defense as well. But no, I don't think that the court of public opinion should be innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent.

0:15:40 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:16:34 Kristi: I think we're, as adults, we can read these things and judge them. We can look at the investigations. Did they tell people at the time? Is there corroborating evidence? All of this stuff should go into our decision making. Taking. But no, I don't think it's a witch hunt. And I think when there's clear evidence that in this case, you know, these men have done wrong, then we can't say, well, we can just set it aside because they haven't been convicted in a court. No, these guys need to be out of power because there is convincing evidence that they abuse that power when it's given to them. That's my take.

0:17:06 Thomas: Charone, you know something about the law, right? What do do you think about that? And also, could you talk about the current balance, which is, I think that most men making these bad arguments, either they realize it and they're just being cynical about it and are benefiting from it, or they don't realize that the current system legally, you don't have proof of these things. You're never going to have evidence of most of these Things. It's like when someone asks you to, oh, he said something creepy to me, or he said a lot of creepy things to me. And you're asked, well, can you prove it? It's like, well no, I don't record everything I do. So, I find that really frustrating. And Charone, can you talk about, I suppose, the system as it sits now, like the burden of proof. What do you think about all that?

0:17:09 Charone: Yeah Um, that is really, really a good question. Um, of you know, I'm have two minds because I will not deny, you know, it's not like people are completely groundless when they talk about the danger of false accusations, accusations, because a false accusation can ruin someone's life, you know, and that's significant. But at the same time, it was like, just like Kristi was saying, you know, it's kind of also on the public, I mean, if a false accusation ruins someone's life, that's kind of on the public, too, because the public has made a judgment. So I think, like Kristi said, it's up to the public to kind of, you know, investigate things. And, you know, if you have someone who's been accused, I have a feeling, I've never, I've never known of someone who's a sexual offender where there won't be at least one other person who will corroborate and be like, yeah, he did it to me, too.

0:18:42 Charone: So I think that we have to maybe get more sophisticated in the way that we investigate and follow up, just for, you know, not necessarily in the legal forum, because the legal form has a very high standard of proof, but, you you know, for truth-finding, fact-fining missions or whatever, but in court, you know what, rape and murder are two things that are extremely hard to prove, and they're like two, the two kind of worst crimes that, that we, we think of, um, with our current morals, and, uh, you usually don't have, in rape, you at least have, um.

A living witness, usually, but, in murder, there's no, there is very often no living witness. So, very, very hard to pull that crime, and um, um and and at the same time uh people Always want to put away murderers and rapists, and that leads to, I think, in murder particularly, wrongful convictions. Um, I did a whole episode on my show about reasonable doubt and how I think it is not always correctly explained to juries and how cases come out the wrong way sometimes because of that. When it comes to rape, you still, you'll have to get to proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

You do have two sides of the story, although, you have, you won't even have a he said, she said, if the defendant doesn't testify, which they often don't. Guess it all depends on whether the judge or jury believes the plaintiff. And um, and rape, you know, I have very little real world experience with this, um, as far as courtroom experience, but everything

0:20:16 Charone: I know about rape trials is, is number one, the, the percentage of actual rapes that turn into a trial is minuscule. And yeah, and then also, um, uh, you know, it's very traumatic for a rape victim to have to go through the process, everything from reporting it to the police initially to, to going to trial. Uh, the kind of thing that, um, that's like one of the biggest arguments against the people who are like, what about the people who make false accusations?

There are, there probably are as many serial killers as there are people who would be willing to go through that as a rape victim who's lying, like the percentage of, of the population who would be willing to do that, uh, it's you Know it's super embarrassing, and uh, I was just, um, watching a show on Netflix about British rape investigators, and, and one of the things they have in their training, uh, they get trained about how to, you know, interview victims and things. And, um, were talking about being in class, and the teacher was like, take a minute and silently think to yourself about, like, the most embarrassing sexual experience you've ever had, like, remember all the details about it and everything. And, and, like, after a minute, the teacher will be like, okay, now turn to the person next to you and tell them all the details of that, you know, that's

0:20:57 Thomas: Yeah, wow. Yeah,

0:21:34 Charone: That's what you have to do when you're reporting a rape

0:21:37 Kristi: If we're going to talk about false accusations, then we also should include in that conversation exactly what Charone was saying, in that very few rapes actually go to trial, and asking, in our society, why don't victims feel like they can come forward? Both institutional barriers, like rape kits that aren't being tested because counties aren't funding them, on budget crisis, and they reduce the priority of testing those rape kits, or people without training, like was just described in the British system, who don't know how to properly interview victims, to social pressures, especially like male victims of rape who think men can't be raped. And so I think there's a whole discussion here. And I know that it tends to skew in certain areas to the whole leaping immediately to false accusations. But the other side of that, again, as Charone rightly pointed out, and I want to emphasize that, most of these types of sexual predators, they are predators, which means they have multiple victims.

0:22:27 Kristi: And as a society, it should be in our best interest to make sure these people are caught. And the best way to catch them is to have a criminal justice system that makes it as easy as possible, in a society where people will be, their claims will be believed and then investigated, and they know that going in. I think that that's something we should also be talking about.

0:22:46 Thomas: That was something that I was thinking about, which is, yes, it's true, as you said that you both said, I think that, yes, there are such a thing as false accusations, but they're they're a vast minority. And I think I mean, maybe we will be able to get more sophisticated now that we're finally listening and there's public focus on this. Maybe we will Be able to Get more sophisticated in how we evaluate these things. I mean, don't you think that there will be, if we put enough effort into actually pursuing it, it as though, and you know, interviewing or listening or calling or talking to confidentially, whatever it is, to these victims, won't we be able to suss out when like one person has decided they bear a grudge, you know? And want to try to falsely accuse someone?

0:23:31 Thomas: I mean don't, don'T you think THAT'LL BE PRETTY EASY TO TELL? Or am I being naive? What do you think?

0:23:37 Charone: Optimism that that will happen I mean we're getting better all the time You

0:23:40 Kristi: I think the numbers I've seen have been between three and five percent of when people report rape that they end up being false. And part of that, it also depends on how you measure false, right? Because if someone ends up withdrawing a claim because the victim decides they don't, he or she doesn't want to go through it, sometimes that's classified as a false claim because it was was withdrawn. But actual people, and I've seen cases too where I remember a woman who had made an accusation, it was found out to be false and that she was being prosecuted, which is also the case. You're wasting police time, right? This is a serious allegation to make for someone. There should be some consequences. So I think that we have a system in place to punish people who make those accusations. And also we shouldn't overestimate even within that small percentage how many are false. We should look at actual people who have been charged with making a false accusation versus a wider category.

0:24:29 Thomas: That's really smart. I didn't even think about how they would be counting that. Yeah, that's interesting to look into.

0:24:33 Kristi: That's a social scientist in me.

0:24:34 Thomas: Yeah. There you go. But I, I thought social science was all bunk. I I'm, I've been, you know, I haven't listened to Jordan B. Peterson. I heard you guys are all just nuts. No. Um, That, no, that's fascinating. Yeah, that's a really fascinating. I'd never thought about how would actually count that. Um, so yeah, let's, I guess, transition then to some of the cases we wanted to talk about. You know, you mentioned, Kristi, I think in your opening statement, sort of that talked about Louis C.K. and Al Franken and the fact that in some ways it's like more disturbing. And I certainly felt this way about Louis C.K. because I felt personally, you know, I'm a huge fan of him. I was a huge fan of his comedy. He was my favorite. I can't put it any other way. I've Facebook post going back five years of me saying, this is my favorite comedian. He just is. And in some ways, it just baffled me that someone who I thought would be so in touch with humanity and with his own failings and with our failings, society's failings.

0:24:40 Kristi: Exactly. It's all postmodern nonsense.

0:25:37 Thomas: It's so incredible that he could have this horrible history. And of course, I believe it. It is true. I am not saying that. I hope you, you understand what I'm saying, it's just it's it's all the more shocking, you know, that he is was a predator and hopefully was and not still is, is we knew. In some ways, does it reveal, you know, even the bigger depth of the problem when it's people we previously thought would know better? You know, how have you been processing that? I'll start with Charone. Is it surprising? Should it not be surprising? Should I have not been at all surprised that someone I thought should know better turned out to be a predator? What do you think?

0:26:16 Charone: Know what? I have a lot of the same feelings as you because I adore Louis C.K.'s comedy. He's a genius, I think. And he's also somebody who does a lot of material on sexism. And, you know, he's had bits about all the shit that women have to deal with and stuff. And it seems irreconcilable in my mind, and I, don't know, because I'm not a man, like, sometimes men will, and this would be more your area, Thomas, because you're a guy, but like, you know, on the one hand, we're told like, okay, don't, don'T reduce men to like thinking with their penis. They, they, they are more higher functioning than that, it's offensive to like characterize men as just sex monsters. At at the same time, how do you explain Louis C.K.? Like, the guy's smart, you know, he, he seems to be, like, socially, you know, very progressive, and at the same time he's victimizing women like that. I just don't know, I don't know how to explain it, and I'm certainly no psychologist or anything, you know.

0:26:30 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I for one think that this nonsense has shown us that sometimes or oftentimes men are just sex monsters. But what do you think, Kristi?

0:27:27 Charone: I have

0:27:28 Kristi: Well, first of all, to maybe put things in a slightly better light, another tweet that I sent out actually earlier today was an observation I made that people who are progressive in the Democratic Party in the States, we are debating how to deal with the people that have been accused and admitted it, you know, like, what is the appropriate way to punish them sort of publicly, you know? With Al Franken going to the Ethics Committee and Louis C.K. basically being exiled like Napoleon out of France for some unknown period of time. Whereas Republicans with Roy Moore, they're debating whether or not to hold him accountable. And that at least says that we're, I think we're on, we know, I know we're in the right side of things, right? Because we're just dealing with how do we, we're wrestling with how to hold these men accountable. I was gutted. It was like a stab in the heart when I read the things about Louis C.K. I also really am a big admirer of his work. I think some of his psychology and insights, the way he puts them together in comedy are just, are gems, right?

0:28:03 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:28:27 Kristi: They stand out in your mind because they hit you so powerfully, kind of the way that sometimes Hitchens would. And to hear, again, have this cognitive dissonance of hearing him speak in ways that I thought he understood things so much better, and then reading his letter, I don't know if you both read his statement start to finish, I know it was criticized by some people and it was called the work of publicists, and it was criticized for him not saying the words "I'm sorry," but, it no, at least he, but he did make the apology and he made a much better apology than Kevin Spacey did, he was working in the right direction, and and that doesn't change what he did. But yes, in terms of like, how he processes, and I think I kind of forgot your question now, as I wander down this sort of trail of thought on this.

0:29:07 Thomas: No, that's That's okay. That's Okay.

0:29:10 Kristi: But I was, I think we have to remember that if we look back in history, a lot of men that we, we still look at their, their achievements, they were deeply flawed men. Jefferson was a deeply flawed man. And the same sexual sort of predatory thing by having sex with his slave. In my view, that's rape. He also was an incredible thinker in terms of setting the values for our country. And we have to wrestle with that. People who study philosophy like Heidegger, you know, he had Nazi sympathies. How do you deal with that and still admire his work? And so I think it's just hard now because it's happening to us and people that we know. And so it's not theoretical anymore. It really hits home.

And that's part of the, this is what I was pointing to about how horrible this process is, because we are feeling betrayed, we, it's not the same betrayal, obviously, that that the women felt or their degradation, but it is a kind of, it is betrayal of a sort of trust we had based on who we thought he was. And so as much as society has to process it, those of us who feel, get personally impacted, we also have to process how do we see this person now, knowing what he, how do we see his comedy where he pretends to masturbate and not associate it with that, same with Bill Cosby, it's just, they've ruined it for everybody by being so dumb. And it was like, why couldn't you just keep it in your pants, just

0:29:29 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah,

0:30:38 Kristi: Keep him seriously that would have do you know what what I mean

0:30:42 Thomas: I do. I think you expressed that really well. And I think I really like what you're saying about, we're transitioning to dealing with men who are actually at least apologizing, even if it might not be, you know, a good apology, a bad apology, whatever it is. I I think that is a fundamental difference. Let's talk about that maybe, because I'm and now if we're dealing with Al Franken, which is a very, to my mind, I think a pretty important question right now because of, you know, it's sort of pending, like how do we want to deal with him? Sure, Louis C.K. is, you know, is one thing, but that's entertainment. That's not someone who's setting our policy, you Know, or having a hand in where we're going as a country. So in some ways, you know, there's not as much at stake in terms of how the public should perceive him.

0:31:29 Thomas: When it comes to someone like Al Franken, I think there might be quite a lot at stake. So do you, I have a worry and I just want to get your thoughts on this. I have a worry that maybe we have been using a previous lens to look at maybe a new kind of offender. Every You reason for us to have done this since up until, you know, a year ago, things were completely different or even sooner. I worry that we're using the that previously what would happen is men would just deny this or offenders would just deny it, threaten, you know, with Trump, with Roy Moore, deny, threaten the accusers, say they're not even really rapable, say horrible things about them and sort of get away with it.

0:32:18 Thomas: And so there's a level of vitriol, which I think is 100% warranted, if not more so, against these people. Now, are we applying that when we see someone like Al Franken, who as of right now with current information, it's possible we could say he made a mistake? And that's another question that I want to get your thoughts on. Is it more like he made it a mistake given the current evidence than he's an actual predator? Competitor and given that he has recognized in his apology, the voice of his victim, he has said it's important to take women seriously. He's done none of the things that Trump and Moore have done. Is it appropriate to treat him differently? And I think that's a very central question. I know I've thrown a lot at you both.

0:33:04 Thomas: I want to go to Charone. What do you think about any number of those things? Or you can ignore them and talk about something else. But what are your thoughts? I

0:33:12 Charone: A lot of thoughts, and I want to make one thing very clear. You'll never hear me defend in any way Al Franken's behavior during the incident, as we call it.

You know, you're, you're not going to hear me say, "Oh, it wasn't that bad," or "Oh, it was just a joke." I do, ultimately, I won't bury the lead, I do ultimately come down the side of, I don't think he should be resigned or impeached, or I don't think he should resign or be impeached out of the Senate.

But, you know, I think it's also, this is so connected to politics in so many ways, because, you know, although I would like to be able to discuss this in a very politically neutral way, and to be be able to say like, oh, different members of Democrats, Democrats should be treated the same as Republicans, we should use all the same standards, and really, I've been thinking about this, I think we do need to come up with some standards for how we evaluate each of these cases, so it's not just like, um, you know, so you don't look like a hypocrite if you want to treat one person differently from another person.

Uh, but on the other hand, it's, the Republican Party is just gonna come out and say, like, because no one here disagrees with me, I don't think they're, they're pretty anti-women in their platform, uh, you know, especially the extremes of it, like Roy Moore, um, and not only are those people anti-woman in the way they think and the way they act and the, they make laws when it comes to abortion, birth control, all that stuff, but also, also extremely religious.

And the thing that really gets me about Roy Moore, um, his whole thing is being a Christian and his bank is full of all these people, they're like, you gotta be Christian, it's always, what would Jesus do, for everything, every daily decision you make in your life, and those people are

0:34:58 Charone: I don't get how they're coming to his defense when he's been acting in some mighty unchristian ways with some 14 year olds And now I understand that the Bible doesn't actually say it

0:35:07 Thomas: Was going to say, yeah, it might be actually Christian. Going back to the Bible, it Might be more Christian.

0:35:14 Charone: Really is, but you have to, again, you got to be consistent. And when it comes to Christianity in America, it's never been about what the Bible says, you know people have there's a certain, uh, you know, a certain thing that we consider to be Christian-like behavior and whether or not the Bible is that, you should or shouldn't do it. And, uh, and we all know, like, it's like pornography, we know it when we see it. So, um, like touching children is something that, you know, has not, not never until now been defended, like, you know even in the catholic church when they get caught red-handed they have to admit it's wrong and

0:35:22 Thomas: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Think?

0:35:52 Kristi: Have two main points that I wanted to make. The first one was on the Republican Party. First, I should say, in fairness, there are Republicans who have come out against Roy Moore and want nothing to do with him and would rather see somebody else on the ticket. So, you know, hashtag not all Republicans, but certainly yeah

0:36:07 Charone: Good for them for having sorry to interrupt you but like the the barest modicum of decency like I mean I'm glad you know some of them do and some of them don't

0:36:13 Kristi: Absolutely absolutely, and the whole Alabama Republican Party that's standing by him are exactly guilty of the sorts of things you're talking about, exactly that. And that's the sort of thing that's tearing the party apart right now. So I think that, yeah, you've made all the points really well on that in terms of the hypocrisy. So, I'll move on to the second point, which is, what do we do with these? So far, it's been exclusively men. How do we handle this? And, you know, I'm going to kind of compare the idea, I heard it first from Bill Maher, so I'll call it the Maher view, which is to say, well, what Al Franken did wasn't what Roy Moore did, so we really shouldn't compare them, and it's the whole, it's not so bad-ism, right? And I think that that was, that just didn't sit well with me. And then, of all people, Jennifer Rubin on All In, or, I'm sorry, A.M. Joy with Joanne Reed, which Jennifer Rubin was fantastic, and I don't often find myself saying those words in that kind of sentence.

0:37:07 Kristi: But her point was that that's the wrong way to look at it, this sort of scale. The better way is to look at it as a zero-tolerance policy, and then you decide kind of what is the appropriate attitude to take afterwards. So in other words, it's a little bit kind of like a court system, you know, if the allegations are just so credible, and we're like, nope, we're going to draw the line here. This is a, you've crossed the line, Roy Moore. You've crossed a line, Kevin Spacey. You you've crossed the line, Harvey Weinstein, then what? Then it comes into taking into account all the other things. One, how many victims are there? Did the person show remorse? What does the victim have to say? We haven't brought up just yet Leanne Twidden, Twidden? I knew I was going to get that wrong.

0:37:47 Thomas: Tweeting.

0:37:48 Charone: Treating lines of sweden I think yeah

0:37:51 Kristi: Yes, thank you. And when she was on The View, her appearance that I saw before we had this hangout, she was saying, I didn't want him to resign. I didn'T want him TO, you know, be thrown thrown out of office, I wanted to put this information out there. I think that should be taken into account. If that's her position, and those are her feelings, because he made a sincere apology, she accepted it, and the House Ethics Committee is going to deal with it, then, you know, that is probably an appropriate way to go forward. And then it's going to be up to the voters of Minnesota to decide after that. But with Roy Moore, with all of the evidence, and the fact that he's not defending himself, well, he's just attacking, as you say, and and threatening, well, then, you know, should the Republican Party nationally be doing more to distance themselves from that kind of candidate?

0:38:38 Kristi: So I think the zero-tolerance policy approach seems a much more sensible way to go, which is once you've crossed the line, then we start to, you now, consider all of the things we know about the case.

0:38:49 Thomas: Yeah, that's interesting. It's also interesting because I watched that Bill Maher and I thought he said that. I thought he said, well, he said zero tolerance doesn't mean the same punishment or doesn't mean infinite punishment.

0:38:55 Charone: Me too doesn't mean maximum punishment automatically yeah I

0:39:00 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I think he also echoed that. I just want to say, I mean, I don't always agree with Bill Maher. I often disagree with him. But and actually, I want to mention one thing he said that I strongly disagree with. And I'm really curious to hear your opinions on it. He said, you know, we can't be more offended than the victim when it comes to any of these things. And he brought up the, there was an incident between the Dodgers and Astros where one of the Houston Astros made kind of a racist gesture about a Japanese pitcher. And I was kind of upset with him then because I don't think it's true that we can't be more offended than the victim. Like, I don't think it's necessarily false, but, and I like the way you put it, Kristi, which is, you know, we'll take it into account, but A, it can go the other way.

0:39:03 Kristi: Right.

0:39:52 Thomas: Like, if the victim thinks that the offender should be murdered or something, it's not as though that's okay. So, like, there is some line of where we take into account. And I think it can go the other way, which is if there's a lot of social pressure for the victim to say, you know, it wasn't a big deal. I just, you know, maybe they don't want to take on the burden of speaking out against their accuser. I think we very much can be more offended than the victim. And so that was something that I thought Mar said that I strongly disagreed with. But I'll go over to you, Charone. What do you think about those questions and kind of what Maher said and what Kristi just said?

0:40:30 Charone: Agree with you that I don't think Bill Maher put it very elegantly there. I mean, he has, he has a point about blowing things out of proportion, maybe, and making case by case, making mountains out of molehills, but yeah, I think you're exactly right that you can't let the victim's reaction be the be all and end all. You know, something, just because something was done to someone and they are okay with it, uh, it might be a very unokay thing, but, but I think he, maybe, you know, and he, he admits that sometimes he doesn't always think things through, he does a live show, uh, you know, I, I think what he was trying to say was like, even the person, you know, even the victim of this, with Al Franken, doesn't think that he should be thrown out of the Senate. So, so where do people get off?

0:41:21 Charone: And I don't know, because I have, we had a conversation about this. I do know people who are very good friends of mine who are very much like, Al Franken, you're dead to me. They don't want to forgive him for this. So there's another side to this, I guess. But I mean, I just think that there's so much distinction. I mean I get the temptation for people to call me a hypocrite because I defend And I think that Al Franken should be, I don't think he should be thrown out of office, but I think Roy Moore should never have been in, really never have Been in any of the jobs he ever had. But there's a big difference between someone who's a prosecutor and is committing sex crimes against minors, simultaneously, and someone Who did a really offensive comedy routine once and then later became a senator and has been on women's side when it comes to lawmaking and all that, and like Kristi said, you know, taking responsibility, whereas there were more people are, some of them are saying he shouldn't even take any responsibility, and he doesn't take any responsibility.

0:42:02 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:42:27 Kristi: In the case of the baseball player, it seems to me that because that was broadcast across the country, the player wasn't the only person impacted. In That case, what the victim thinks, it might be his own opinion, but all the other people who saw that and formed an opinion, if we had all been exposed to Louis C.K. doing what he did to those women, then we would have been directly affected by that too, and we'd have to make up our minds, right?

So it's a kind of one situation where it's a private where the interaction in the case of these sexual assaults or violations or whatever were happening versus something that was broadcast on TV, and I think, you know, equating those doesn't make sense categorically, like false equivalence. In that case, in Maher's case, um, is Al Franken is being held to account. He's being investigated by the Senate Ethics Committee. And that to me, I mean, so it's not in a case where he's not, there's no consequences for what he did. And so that's another way to deal with the accusation about why he shouldn't, you know, why he must resign. No, he is being held to account by his peers.

0:42:32 Thomas: Yeah, absolutely right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:43:28 Kristi: So isn't that kind of a justice?

0:43:31 Thomas: I agree. I think one counter that I've seen in the Nate Silver piece on 538 is like, well, the ethics committee, you know, there have been a ton of investigations and rarely does anything happen. And also like, what exactly are they investigating if she said something and he said, okay, yeah, that's true. So that's a counter I have seen, but, and I'm also going to, I want a minute to recognize some bad behavior on the Democrats' side, it doesn't mean it's equal, I want it to be very clear. But one thing that I think you both have touched on that I think happens is it's almost easier for humans, because people are people, it's almost easier for us to believe that the whole world is lying rather than the guy we like that we think is so much better than the other side is bad.

0:44:21 Thomas: And I think you definitely see this with Roy Moore. I think it's a little bit mixed because his is so clear cut that it's hard to believe anyone disbelieves it, but they do. I mean, there are a lot of Republicans who just think, you know, this is a liberal conspiracy. It's fake news. And, you know, he's a Christian, so therefore I'm sure he's fine, you know, and so there's a little bit of that's an easy way out, you know, just like, well, I'm just going to not believe it's true. And I think we've seen a little bit of that with Al Franken. We've seen, and I think based on social media that I've seen from you, Kristi, you might be able to comment on this more. We're seeing some attempts for people to kind of discount Al Franken's victim, to poke holes in it on the part of Democrats.

0:45:09 Thomas: And I think that we've got to call that out as what it is, you know, an attempt to try to, that's an easy way out, it seems to me. Can you talk any more about things you've seen on that side? Because because I'm pretty sure I've seen you post about that a little bit.

0:45:23 Kristi: Yeah, I was disappointed that someone I considered sort of a really progressive friend posting things that were sort of, you know, saying basically the we should have a burden of proof like a legal system, because these accusations, if we take them seriously, are not going to just hurt the accused, but it's going to hurt the accuser as well.

And I was like, you know, yeah, believe the victim and then investigate, not believe unconditionally, you know, it's not that kind of, and it gets a little bit frustrating, frustrating. And you're right, I think that that's the emotional side of it. And human beings are guilty. It's not a left right thing.

Um, nearly, but um, you know, I think that working with people and educating them and explaining, also, um, to remember that and these are sometimes people's heroes and they want to, either they're really let down and they feel betrayed and they don't want to hear their name and they are, they're dead to them, right, or on the other hand they don't want to believe it's true, and so they attack the people making the accusations, and that's incredibly, incredibly disappointing. And that that might be the case in terms of what's going on with Alabama Republicans as well. But I think there's just also a purely Machiavellian streak in some voters. We saw that with Trump.

A lot of people, I don't have the exact numbers, but there were Republican voters who said the Supreme Court was the reason why they voted for Trump, because they want to overturn Roe v. Wade, and they're willing to vote for a man who is a an admitted sexual assaulter and a racist and all, I would spend the

0:46:55 Kristi: Rest of the night just going down the list, so we know what Trump is like, but they're to vote him to get that, means to an end, right, and that was exactly what the answer given by the Alabama governor was, that, uh, you know, she wants to see the, you know, Supreme Court protected in these sorts of things, it's better to have a Republican who prays on her, preyed on, on teenage girls than a Democrat.

0:47:17 Thomas: Can I be totally honest, and you guys can yell at me if I'm out of line? I honestly have more respect for that than just denying reality and pretending it didn't happen, because I have to say, I was thinking of a hypothetical. Like, okay, picture two candidates. One's a run-of-the-mill Republican without any weird ethical rapey stuff. He's just a normal Republican, but wants to do things like overturn Roe v. Wade, shut down abortion clinics, all the horrible stuff that the three of us, I think we're pretty progressive Democrats, don't want to have happen. And then on the other side, we've got a Democrat who shares all of our views, wants to stop that from happening. And then at the last minute, we find out that Democrat has some serious ethical violations, be it could be sexual assault, could be very serious. I've honestly been struggling in my mind to think, well, does that individual's bad behavior mean that my ideas have to lose out?

0:47:25 Kristi: I

0:48:17 Thomas: Like, does his behavior mean that abortion clinics have to be closed, that women have to suffer, that gay people have to suffer? Like, I've obviously been thinking about it and I'm like, you know, I don't know. I'm really curious to hear what you think because looking at it from that lens. Now, there's all kinds of room for actual details. Where are we in the election? Do we have time to replace that person with somebody who is actually an ethical person? But I can certainly picture a scenario where, no, it's too late to do any sort of replacement. Would it be ethical to vote for that person and then insist they resign and replace themselves or something? Something. I'll start with you, Charone. What do you think about that hypothetical?

0:48:57 Charone: Yeah, that's a really good question, and I think I do agree, like when you said you have more respect for people who are just honest about what they want. I do too. I mean, you Know, I much prefer, like, let's talk talk about what we're talking about and not obfuscate, but when it comes to something like this, you know, it's pretty hard for people to do that, because if you're going to, if they're going to be honest, like, yeah, I want this guy for his conservative voting record, but he's a rapist, like he's actually done things that he could go to jail for, like you can't have that person, I mean, I guess it's not like technically illegal to run for Senate, if you, I mean, I, okay, yeah,

0:49:37 Thomas: Actually read an article about that. Yeah, you can run for office nationally. There might be state laws against it, but nationally you can running for office. But the hiccup is the party can just not let you on their ballot. But anyway, sorry. I just happened to read that.

0:49:47 Charone: No, No, that's good. So, but that's, yeah, like, you know what, in a case this extreme almost, it's very virtually impossible to, like, to say, like, well, no, I'm conservative, so I support Roy Moore. Like, he's, like, a criminal. Like, we could go to jail. Like, the statute, there's no statute of limitations on these crimes. I don't think, no, I don't think they'll be proven in court. For a lot of the reasons we already discussed.

But yeah, like the other thing about what if someone's a bad person in some ways, but um, but, you know, is going to do the right thing for people. And that's again where I think we come back to, like, there just have to be some standards, because, like, a person's improper behavior on a particular occasion, or set, a series of occasions, um, may or may not be socially acceptable, legally acceptable, religiously acceptable, and it may or may not be a reflection of their character as a person, rather than, like, an instance of bad judgment, and all those things make a difference, but I think that if push came to shove, you know, and we had somebody who, you now, let's say by some miracle we had a Supreme Court vacancy right now, and and the the perfect person been chosen as far as as the left wing is concerned, the person who would do all the right things on the court, but, you know, they, um, they, they murdered their spouse.

Like, I, you know, I, I don't think, I, I mean, would you guys want that person on the Supreme Court? I, I think I would have to draw the line. Well,

0:51:27 Thomas: What hypothetical choice of does the... And this is something I've really been struggling with. Does an individual's failings... And they might be extreme. They might be really bad. Does that mean that the ideas we're voting for have to fail? Uh,

0:51:44 Kristi: Think that, at least for me, let me speak to the personal first. I kind of did this back actually when Bill Clinton was running for re-election and Wisconsin is an open primary state. So I decided I was going to vote in the Republican primary for Pat Buchanan because I figured he had the least chance of winning against Clinton. I went to the polls fully intending to vote for Pat Buchanan, but when it actually came to crossing his name off, I couldn't. I could not bring myself, because I've been a lifelong Democrat. I've never voted knowingly for a Republican in my life, maybe in some nonpartisan elections, but I don't think those count.

And I simply, it would violate, it Would too much violate who I was as a person to do it. So I ended up like voting for other offices, but not in the Republican primary. And I think for Alabama voters, there might be a lot of people who make the decision on the day in the ballot box, because it's one thing to kind of think hypothetically about what you're going to do. But when you're actually faced with a decision, that's a slightly different psychological test, at least from my research, I should say, I'm quoting my own research here, that

0:52:14 Thomas: Huh yeah

0:52:48 Kristi: There is a moment where, you know, even if I had people in my focus groups in one election, they left the House planning on voting for one party, having voted for a different party most of their life. And when they got to the ballotbox, they ended up voting the way they always did. So there is something about voting that is actually a statement of who we are. It's our value statement for some people. And if that's the case, I think you're going to see either a lot of people stay home, or a lot of people have a moment of crisis in the ballot box. And so I can't really speak to how other people are going to vote. But I can see the not only the political calculations, but also I heard again, quoting from AM Joy, because I love that show. But there was a pastor on, and he was making the argument that if you look at the Bible, God often has used flawed men to achieve his goals.

0:53:36 Kristi: Moses committed murder before God spoke to him. And King David was a known rascal, right? But he was still an important, you know, person in the history of the Jewish people. So sometimes it's about the ultimate aims was this pastor's argument, not the man who is the vehicle to achieve God's plan.

0:53:55 Thomas: Well, I, you know, I feel like you, you might have a little bit dodged the hypothetical question, uh, I have to say, because I, I really wonder, you know, if, if the vote comes, if we could make it as simple as we want, you know, like really bad Democrat who's a history of, uh, exposing himself to women or something. Just the worst, whatever, versus Republican and Roe v. Wade is on the line. Like, I personally, you know, I think it's more important that women have access to reproductive health than that this one individual is a bad person. Now, I would always hope that there's some other road we could take, like, okay, let's all do a write-in campaign for someone who's not an awful person.

0:54:40 Thomas: But in some ways, I have to say I have a little bit of sympathy for if you were someone who believes that people are murdering babies, it's not that much of a mystery to me that you could vote for an awful person on those grounds. And I just, I don't know how to get around it. Go ahead.

0:54:57 Kristi: I was just going to say, I would basically, I don't know if I could vote for that candidate, but I would still hope they would win. You know, that would be it. I think just in terms of who I am, I do not know that I could.

0:55:06 Thomas: Oh, interesting. That's like being at the trolley problem and hoping maybe a tree branch will fall and hit the switch.

0:55:17 Kristi: Yes. I would have to free ride on other people's willingness to take that, what you were going to do, basically.

0:55:25 Thomas: Wow. Well, okay. Yeah, Yeah, I just, yeah, it's really interesting. And so I suppose, I'm sure my listeners will have a lot of thoughts on that. Maybe I'll get yelled at, but that's okay. I really, I really am not sure what I would do in an analogous situation. I really do think the Republican Party had a responsibility to do something. I mean, they've just taken such a nothing approach, just kind of a wait and see. Well, I think maybe he'll be able to get away with it when they could have probably done some sort of write-in. They couldn't replace him. It was too late, but they could have coordinated a write-in campaign to actually replace him. And I just want to make clear that I would, that absolutely, I would advocate for that route if we had it, you know, but I could easily picture a scenario where it's like, well, if you don't have any other options, it could be ethical to vote for the unethical candidate. But anyway, I think we're, okay, go ahead.

0:56:15 Kristi: Can I just say, speaking as a political campaigner, all that is going to doing is split your own party's vote because you are not going to get Democrats crossing over to vote for a Republican alternative to Roy Moore. So the problem with that tactically is you're just going to split your vote. You know, it's not even a third party kind of situation. And that would guarantee the Democrat would win.

0:56:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:56:34 Thomas: Just because you think there's enough people who won't jump off the Roy Moore ship. Is that what you mean?

0:56:39 Kristi: Because I think there would be. I mean, he's not it's going to be a close race already, at least in the polls right now because of these accusations. So you're seeing his support sort of start to slide. And then if you give people a vote of conscience way out of voting for Roy Moore, then all that's going going to do is siphon off the people who are looking for an out but still want to vote for a Republican, rather than actually getting Roy Moore's people, which are, if that's even five, let's say it's 10%, that's still going to drop, you know, you're still going split the vote three ways, and it'll be a plurality. So yeah,

0:56:44 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Well, then it sounds like you're saying they are forced into doing what they're doing.

0:57:18 Kristi: It's the least worst option. Their least worst option is to get him in the Senate and then sort of censure him and then let him get on with stuff. I

0:57:20 Thomas: Yeah, well, that's very interesting. Yeah Yeah. I actually that was my prediction. I made an opening arguments. I think he will end up just getting in and nothing will happen. But that's based on the 2016 world where just everything bad the worst thing always happens. So hopefully Hopefully we don't still live in that world.

0:57:40 Kristi: Would say look for women, if Republican women turn out for him or not.

0:57:46 Thomas: Yeah, it's possible that the Democrat could just win. That would be great. Jones, I think his name is. That wouldbe great. Well, there is so much more that I honestly could talk to you guys about, but I've just looked and we're just about out of time. Is there anything that you want to say in closing that we maybe didn't get to? I'll start with you, Charone. First off, thanks so much for coming on. But what do you think? Any closing thoughts?

0:57:51 Charone: As I, you know, people are, people have been saying, like, oh god, you, it's like, actually, it reminds me a lot of, like, the whole thing with, um, trans acceptance now, and oh god now I gotta freaking call people by the pronouns they want, and then people are saying in response to that, you don't know it's not that hard. I don't think it's that hard, just as a general thing to put out there, I don't think it's THAT hard to ask somebody before you touch them. You know, can I hug you? Can I kiss you? Not that hard! If you think it's weird, that's probably because we aren't progressed enough as a society, so let's make it not weird. Like, just ask. Thank

0:58:45 Kristi: My closing thoughts would be a lot of this discussion so far has been happening, at least in my life on the public sphere, but the fact is that we're seeing how widespread this problem is, and the chances are you might know someone in your life who has gone through this sort of sexual assault or harassment or inappropriate touching or somehow being the victim of a sexual predator. Or you might come into a situation where someone comes and tells you something that happened. And I think we should think about what would happen if a friend of mine told me that some guy I know, or a woman, but like I said, this has been disproportionately men, did this. And, you know, having maybe friends intervene and talking, because this isn't a problem that we're going to fix in the media. This is unfortunately a problem we kind of have to fix. And it's not like it's monsters who are doing this, right?

0:59:32 Kristi: These are probably some guys you know might have done these things in the past. And so the way we change it in our society is also to change it at the personal level.

0:59:45 Thomas: Absolutely. Thank you so much, And again, thank thanks to you both for coming on. I've learned a ton and I really appreciate it.

0:59:52 Charone: You!

0:59:52 Kristi: Thanks a lot.

1:00:19 Thomas: A very interesting discussion. Thanks so much to Charone and Kristi. I think I want to emphasize that I think this is very much the beginning of what is going to be a very long and probably very unclear social conversation we're having. I think it's it's really striking when you look at the range of reactions to these incidents, even on sides that you would think would normally agree. Thing I meant to say that I want to say now, just because I've heard people mention and talk about, well, if Democrats don't just expel Franken from the Senate, they're just as bad as Republicans, or they don't have the high ground, the moral high ground. And I just really want to point out, just to make absolutely clear, what an actual equivalence would be.

1:01:09 Thomas: Because if you're going to make an equivalence between Roy Moore or Trump and Franken, it's already not even close. It would have to be Al Franken, you know, just absolutely denigrating his accuser, saying she's lying, she's an opportunist, she'd be just saying terrible things about her. We'd have to all believe he would have to call it fake news that it was even covered, and we would, Democrats would have to believe that and buy into it and say all kinds of awful things about that. It's just not even close. So, like, I'm open to the argument, and I'm very curious to hear your opinions, everybody, on what Franken should do, and different instances here that we've touched on in this conversation, what you think the right answer is.

1:01:55 Thomas: And even it's entirely possible that I might be convinced by an argument that Franken should resign. I'm very open to this. But the idea that if he doesn't, then somehow it's equal to what we're seeing with Trump and Roy Moore, I think is absurd on its face. I mean, he's accepting responsibility. He is calling for an investigation on himself. He is saying that the victim's point of view is important. We ought to listen to the victim. I mean already there's a striking difference. Now it's up to each individual to evaluate like what that counts for, but it's not the same is all I'm trying to say here. And I just, I've seen that and something I wanted to touch on because I just think that's such a false equivalence and I really, I can't let it go without saying so.

1:02:41 Thomas: So, but, but I mean, there's so much more to talk about. There's more I didn't even get to. I'm sure we could have many such conversations. If you want to give me your opinions, your voicemails, your recommendations, anyone else you think I should talk to on issues like this, because I think this is an ongoing and important conversation because there's no way it's stopping here. I mean there's, there just absolutely no way we're not in for another solid few months of accusations on people that, who haven't even had accusations against them before. I can't imagine that this is the end by any stretch. So I consider this conversation very much ongoing. Thank you for listening. Thanks again to the panelists there, Kristi and Charone. They were excellent. And I will see you guys on Thursday.