SIO89: Three Stories of #metoo

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 89, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, so, this episode is a bit late to the party, but it is in the spirit of the MeToo hashtag. In my humble opinion, I thought the Me Too hashtag was a very good attempt to bring awareness to a huge problem. And it's something that in a perfect world wouldn't need to exist. In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to have a whole bunch of victims of harassment and assault bear their pain for everybody to see and witness. That wouldn't have to happen, but we don't live in a perfect world. I think we live in a world where these things are overlooked, and these things are played off, and they're ignored, and they are minimized, all those things. And in when you see so many reactions of, wow, I had no idea.

0:01:24 Thomas: I had no idea. You know, I can't help but wonder why people had no idea. But as soon, you know, I think that the answer is privilege. Honestly, I think when you're, you don't have to deal with something in society and in life, you just don't really notice it, you know.

When I don't have to worry about, oh, what if I get hit on at work, how am I going to deal with that situation, how am I going to deal with the awkwardness of having to let someone down in an easy way, it just doesn't really apply as much to me, so I don't notice it until I listen.

So, in the spirit of listening, I, with the help of Felicia Entwistle of Utah Outcasts, check him out, Felicia reached out for anyone who might want to tell their story, and of course it was, it was actually all too easy to find people who this has happened to and be people who are willing to share, because I think they were encouraged by what was happening with the public movement. But at any rate, these stories, there are way more, I could do a weekly podcast on this, I would never run out of stories of women who have been harassed or assaulted or made uncomfortable or anything, it's it's that prevalent, and it's something I want to try to bring awareness to.

So, in the spirit here, 3 stories, they're pretty different, however they do share a common thread I noticed of male entitlement. I think entitlement is the key to all three of these stories, but let's listen, let's hear what they have to say, and just know, listeners, that this is just three of a zillion, like this is just, we get grabbed three people who had three stories, each of whom could have told many more stories about their lives. This is a very tiny sample, but but I wanted to try to put

0:03:13 Thomas: Some real voices to the MeToo hashtag and try to bring some awareness to what is a very huge problem. So with that said, here we go.

0:03:35 Thomas: I'm joined now by Raven. Raven, how are you doing tonight?

0:03:38 Guest: I'm doing well, and yourself?

0:03:40 Thomas: Doing okay. Well, I mean, these are interesting circumstances we are meeting online over, but I understand you've got, I suppose, one of many possible stories you could be telling. Can you share with us today?

0:03:53 Guest: Well, the story that I was interested in sharing with you was my story of being a security guard for a hospital and having to deal with certain co-workers who not only put me in a bit of harm's way, but they retaliated in some not-so-subtle ways, and the company didn't really do anything about them, and they ended up, uh, they didn't, they didn't back me up at all and ended up making it all a big mess to say the least.

0:04:26 Thomas: Jeez. So Take us to the beginning, if you don't mind, uh, and, and by the way, thanks so much for coming on and sharing, I meant to say that and it slipped my mind, but thank you. Yeah.

0:04:27 Guest: No, thank you. Thank you. I um, actually think it's really, really important to kind of get stories out there because people just think, oh, it's just one or two incidents and, you know, it goes away and it's not, it's something that just keeps happening. And I think it's, you know, a lot of that's because nobody thinks it happens that often.

0:04:56 Guest: 10 years ago, I know that seems like a long time, but it's still so ingrained in my head. But about 10 years ago, I worked for a security company, and I was assigned to a hospital for a night. And on night shift, I was the only woman on shift. And we had a lot of high testosterone males, to say the least.

0:04:55 Thomas: Yeah, are You talking about your co-workers or people you are Okay, co-workers. Got it, are

0:05:26 Guest: My coworkers, my coworkers especially, yes, there was plenty of patients and visiting members of family that were also problematic. Because, you know, they see a woman wearing a Sam Brown and a uniform that, that almost mimics a police uniform in many aspects. And I would get, you Know, saluted a lot and be, Oh yes, ma'am, you can arrest me, ma'm kind of stuff, which was just so stupid.

0:05:59 Guest: But, um, yeah, I had coworkers, coworkers who, uh, it was a boys club, and I was the new girl walking in. So I was fair game, and I'm mixed, so I'm half black, half white, but I look apparently very Latina. So quite a few of my Latin coworkers would approach me, I guess, much like they would approach a Latin female. And I didn't respond to a lot of the the kissy faces and the remarks that they would make, or if they made a remark like, oh, hey girl, you're looking good today, yeah, I kind of look at him like, uh, dude, I'm in uniform, just, just don't, just, just please don't. He didn't take too well to being rejected.

0:06:45 Guest: He got angry because I rejected him. I flat out told him was not interested, never would be interested. Uh, I don't date within the workplace. That's, you know, it's not appropriate to say the least. It's not appropriate. And I had no interest in him. So, you know, like, OK, fine, if you want to if you want to play it that way, we'll just be co-workers. And I knew from the tone that he had in his voice that this was not going to be good. So after I applied for the position, I noticed his hostility picked up for for some reason. And I can only assume it's because he knew I would now be kind of a rank above him in many ways. Uh, and he started giving me shit detail basically.

0:07:33 Guest: Um, every time we had somebody who needed a pickup at the morgue, I got assigned to go down there. Time, we needed a 5150, somebody who was not in a good mental state, babysat in the ER, or handled, I was often the person who got assigned to go take care of those people. Even if it was like a 300 pound guy on coke and PCP, guess who got to babysit? Four foot five little me. I'm sorry, five foot four that, yeah, a little bit reversed. Anyways, uh, I noticed I was getting a lot of the just details that most of my other co-workers really didn't like, and suddenly I was getting all of them. Uh,

0:08:04 Thomas: Okay.

0:08:18 Thomas: So So he was, in was he in a position of authority over you, or, so

0:08:19 Guest: Yes. Yes. He was, he was a lieutenant. Uh, I was basically, uh, a private, I guess you would consider my ranking. But yeah, I was the bottom of the pile.

0:08:23 Thomas: Okay. Okay. And So he started assigning you the the very unfavorable calls, zombies.

0:08:37 Guest: The absolutely the most unfavorable calls, because, uh, my male co-workers did not like going into the morgue, they found it creepy, and they didn't like the way it smelled, and most of them were really scared of dead bodies for some reason. And the the few times that he didn't send somebody down, or the times that he was supposed to go down, um, we ended up having uh incidences happen like um, we we had a uh No.

0:09:04 Thomas: No, no. You're just regular.

0:09:05 Guest: No. Oh, that would have been easy to take care of. No, no. I re, I reported to HR, uh, after a while, because I noticed I was just, you know, morgue and ER, and I didn't mind doing my job, but it was the types, the calls that I was getting sent to, you as the shortest person on staff and as a female on staff, it's like, shouldn't you be sending two of us if we have a violent person who's having a psychotic episode? It would make sense to send more than one person, and often he didn't send more than one person. So, oh.

0:09:06 Thomas: Yeah. Oh. My It really felt like to you it was like a backlash, um, like he was definitely trying to punish you for rejecting him. Yeah.

0:09:48 Guest: Yeah, yes. Absolutely, yeah, you, can only go on so many biohazard runs before you go, you know, just just kind of, just kind of uh, you know, maybe you're taking this out on me because, uh, I don't see the half a dozen other men on staff staff sitting out, you babysitting a guy while he's doing a biohazard cleanup. And we're talking medical biohazzard cleanup, something you'd normally need a suit for.

0:09:56 Thomas: There's a a pattern. Yeah.

0:10:21 Thomas: Addition to just being obviously the wrong thing that's happening, it sounds also there's a certain element of maybe he's unnecessarily putting your life in danger sometimes, right?

0:10:22 Guest: Yeah.

0:10:31 Guest: Most definitely, um, caught more than enough details sitting out in the flu tent. That I actually ended up getting sick because we had an outdoor flu tent, it was, I think it was near October, and really cold temperatures. Even with a jacket on, it was wet, it was cold, and I ended up getting a really bad bout of bronchitis from that.

0:10:54 Thomas: So you said you reported him to HR. So what happened?

0:10:58 Guest: HR said that they would talk to him, and that's about all I heard. He didn't really change his attitude towards me. He would sometimes get a bit confrontational if we We happened to pass you know, walking by the courtyards and that kind of stuff. And I had to remind him a couple of times that, hey, you want to talk to me. I'm not interested in talking to you. You think that we're alone, but I can tell you right now that there's cameras all the way around us. So if you try and start shit, there's video recording of all of it.

0:11:32 Thomas: So did he do something that made you think he was going to, what did did you think he was going to do, I guess, when you say that

0:11:37 Guest: The Well, the tone of his voice was one of those tones that as a woman, you get, you get really sensitive when you hear it, it's that kind Of almost a growl that, hey, you know, we need to talk. It's like, oh, I've heard this voice before and that's, this is not a good voice. And the fact that he tried to step very close into my personal space, uh, made me feel extremely uncomfortable. And I mean, he wasn't, he was not supposed to be anywhere near me. Um, yes.

0:11:41 Thomas: Hmm. Are You Saying this is this is what he did and kind of in response to you reporting him. Okay, so you think there's some, some intimidation kind of thing, yeah.

0:12:19 Guest: Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely. He thought that me being the only woman and only being about 5'4", I was going to be easy to intimidate, but I'm built like a brick shithouse and I Can hold my own, so I don't intimidate easily. He got rejected, he just ramped up the kind of shit details we got when I reported him to HR. That's when he started getting kind of gruff with me verbally and trying to meet me in almost dark corners of the hospital because we have grave shifts. So I, I think he was maybe monitoring my walking patterns just to see when he could accidentally cross my path and have a talk with me about what I said.

0:12:33 Thomas: Gotcha.

0:13:05 Thomas: He ever able to have that talk, or where do you, did you just avoid him, or hmm?

0:13:09 Guest: No, I I told him that if he stepped up to me like that again, if he tried to talk to me when we weren't in the office where there would be, you know, where there'd be other people around, where they'd be witnesses.

0:13:17 Thomas: Yeah. Witnesses. Yeah. Oh.

0:13:21 Guest: You know, I told him, look, if, if you want to talk, we can talk in the room, in the break room, in the office, you know, we can talk where there's other people around. Hell, we can even talk with our captain, listening in, that's fine by me. But don't try and talk to me out here alone and think that that's going to go well.

0:13:37 Thomas: Gotcha. He was trying to corner you, kind of off the beaten and path sort of thing, where, okay, I see what you're saying, so Um, where did it go from there? What, what ended up happening?

0:13:43 Guest: Yeah. So at one point, at that point in time, I had applied for the call center detail, and I finally was, think, I had to serve six weeks before I could actually go in and do that. I finally got approved, and my captain made the approval for that, and was gone for I think a couple of days on vacation. So when I went in to get trained, the lieutenant stepped in and went, oh, no, captain's not here. We can't train you right now. I'm like, already approved this. He told me what day to come in. He taught me what I'd be doing. You know, there's... there's our other call center person here to teach me. So I don't see what the problem is. Well, you know, captain's not here and I'm in charge and I'm not comfortable with this.

0:14:36 Guest: So, yeah, you can't train today. And so he blocked me from being able to train for this position for the entirety of our captain being gone. On.

0:14:48 Thomas: Same guy who's been doing this whole thing?

0:14:49 Guest: Same guy that I reported to HR, same guy who tried to corner me. Yeah.

0:14:50 Thomas: So this was further, further revenge that he was able to kind of extract on you, so

0:14:57 Guest: Yes. Yes, and I, I reported it to HR again because I was really, really not happy that this guy still had a position of power and that he was, that he was ramping it up. Basically, he was interfering with my ability to, you know, pass a test and get a better position with, you know, with more hours and better pay. And, and HR is like, well, do you, you have any, like, evidence, like, how are you going to have evidence of what he's saying without wearing a wire at this point. Know, he's, he's making sure, you know, I, I'm keeping track of a lot of stuff that's going on, but he's taking care of it and he's keeping, making sure that what he is doing is just barely within regulation. So kind of the, the culmination of getting, um.

0:15:47 Guest: Any sort of recompense, any sort of, because uh, HR did nothing because my company did nothing. Um, at one point in time, I accidentally, uh, injured myself at work and had, had to go on to workers' comp for quite some time because it was a pretty bad injury. I called into my workplace to the security firm telling them, hey, I need some paperwork done and I need to be able to get cleared to come back to work, they went, oh yeah, well, we can't clear you on this paperwork because you've got to go see a doctor. I'm like, yeah, that's what I'm calling for, work. And so they gave me this big runaround. And I finally just went, you know what, this job is not worth the amount of headache that I'm getting from it.

0:16:33 Guest: I quit. And they're like, oh, God, does this have anything to do with this person? I'm like, I'm sorry. Why is that any part of your concern? They're like. Well, we don't know if you're bringing a lawsuit or not. So we want to to know. And I'm like, you're more worried about a lawsuit than actually taking care of the problem in the first place. And my injury has nothing to do with this person or this whole thing. But if you were so worried about the lawsuit, if you were still worried about me taking legal action, why didn't you take care of this person in the 1st place?

0:17:14 Thomas: You got the impression that, but they knew what was going on, but didn't really want to do much about it. And they kind of made that leap when you talked about your injury. They're just interesting. So was that it? Did you end up quitting?

0:17:25 Guest: Yeah. Yeah. I ended up quitting cause, well, actually, they ended up, I guess, laying me off, doing me a favor so I could collect unemployment. And they basically cited that I spent too much time out of work versus in work, which was kind of stupid. I spent time out-of-work because I caught bronchitis from being outside. I spent time out of work because I kept being put in situations where I'd be exposed to the most amount of germs. I spend a lot of time out-of-work because, you know, I injured myself. It felt so contrived and so pain in the ass.

0:18:06 Thomas: And it puts you in such an uncomfortable position. I mean, I can't imagine if someone in a position of authority over you is trying to hit on you, it's like, oh great, if I, you know, if I reject this, what's gonna happen, you know?

0:18:23 Guest: Yeah, and I thought, you know, just the polite rejections the first couple times around would be enough for them to, you you know, okay, she's not interested. She'll walk out and, you know I can walk away from this. Instead, you know, just got more aggressive and it's like, oh my god, please just, I just need this job. I am not dating a co-worker. I'm especially not going to date somebody who's in the chain of command because that's only going to look bad. Because if I advance it's because I slept my way to the top and if it goes sideways, it's, you know, fraternization. And And since I was the the least senior person there, I'd be the first one removed from duty.

0:18:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. Right. Right. Yeah.

0:19:03 Thomas: But it really puts you in just a no-win situation.

0:19:06 Guest: Very much so.

0:19:08 Thomas: Well, uh, thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry that that went that way, but

0:19:12 Guest: Thank you for for taking this hashtag so seriously and getting our stories out there, because like I said, it it's one of those things where it really needs to be heard.

0:19:22 Thomas: I can do, thanks so much.

0:19:35 Thomas: My next guest would like to be anonymous, and I'm certainly going to honor that wish, so... Anonymous! How are you doing tonight?

0:19:44 Guest: Hi, I'm fine. I'm good.

0:19:46 Thomas: Doing okay. Thanks for coming on, thanks for being willing to share your story.

0:19:51 Guest: You're welcome.

0:19:52 Thomas: With that said, why don't you launch into it?

0:19:57 Guest: I I'm anonymous, and I used to go to this gym, New York Sports Club, and after, the manager, he started to harass me, inviting me for lunch, and I told him that I was seeing someone, that I didn't want to go for lunch with nobody, and also, you know, like, I have a kid, like, it was so embarrassing for me to, you know, for a guy that works at the gym, like, to invite me for lunch in front, in front of my kid. That was so, I, I felt so weird, like, but this gem was new for me because, I, I used to go to the gym, you know, back home, not here in America, so it was my first gym in America, let's say, and manager.

And the thing is, uh, every time that I would take the elevator, he, you know, he would hear my voice and he would take, you know, the stairs to meet me downstairs and approach me and ask me, oh, so can you go today, I'm gonna pay for you, you don't have to worry, and I was like, no, thank you, I would be nice and I say, no, thank yo, I don't want, I, I'm not hungry, because he would say, oh, you worked out so you might, you might be hungry, like, let's just, you know, do a coffee, whatever, let's go.

And then say, no, thank you, I'm, you know, I'm taking my son to the park, I, I don't want to go out with you, thank you, I don't wanna, you know, drink coffee with you.

0:19:58 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.

0:21:26 Thomas: How many times did this happen? Was Is this a, oh,

0:21:27 Guest: Oh, four or five times, and then I, I, you know, I got so, like, annoyed, like, so embarrassing, especially because a friend would come to me and, like, what, you know, the man I wanted with you, because you know, he's, he's married and he has two kids, I was like, wait, he was the one who was inviting me for lunch, and I was just saying no, and I didn't know that he, he was married or whatever, because he was inviting before lunch, he was hitting on me, which, you know, makes, made me more and more embarrassed, because, like, they would say, say, oh, look at this single mom, and flirting with the manager, people could say that about me because I'm the single mom, and everybody knew that, but he was the embarrassing guy.

0:21:46 Thomas: Wow. Yeah. Oh, Would, you would try to tell people and they, they would take it the other way as though you were hitting on him.

0:22:17 Guest: Yeah and then I called, the customer services and I tell them, oh, look, this is going on the gym. I'm, I'm very uncomfortable and it needs to stop. I don't like this. I just want to, you know, to use the gym, you Now, the daycare servers, and that's it. I just went to mind my business, I, I'm getting very uncomfortable, uncomfortable.

So the next day I, you know, I went to the gym and he was, you know, with his arms, like, crossed, to look at me, giving me, like, evil eyes, because I made a complaint about him, and he, every time he would hear my voice, he would, would go see out to look me, you know, to be like, hey, how are you, like, I was a guy, you know, like, he was like confronting me. It was very annoying.

I wouldn't say anything, even hi, you're wrong here, like, you know, you did something wrong, that's why I made a complaint about you. So a month later, I went to the gym on Saturday, and it was like a different babysitter, because usually it's the same babysitter that I used to, to go, they, that takes care of the kids, you

0:22:30 Thomas: Hmm.

0:23:26 Guest: This girl, she was eating, talked to the front desk, and she left, like, four kids by themselves at the daycare, and the kids were like very small, and I got worried to, you know, to drop off my kid and go work out, because, like, she wasn't watching the kids, so I left the gym.

And Monday, I spoke with, with the manager, and I told him, look, that what happened, and, you know, she needs to be in the daycare, she can't, you know, leave the daycare to, you know, to have a lunch and, and, and talk to the front desk, because they're small, and if something happened, like, it's like big zoo that you guys gonna have.

He said, so you don't want to go out with me, but you want me to, to you now, to take care of some kind of shit that you are having here at the gym, like, it is not something that I'm having in the gym, it's some problem that you guys have, like, the girl, she was outside of daycare, it doesn't, it doesn' t have nothing to do with the fact that I don't want to go out with you. Yeah, but you made a complaint about me, so I'm not, you know, a good manager, because I was just being nice, inviting you for lunch, and now, do you think, like, I'm a good manager too, you know, I was like, you know what, whatever, forget it, I called customer, the service again, and I made another complaint about, this happened, and nothing happened.

Like, one week later, he, you know, was picking up my son and he came to me, oh, can you talk, my office, I just, I just, you, basically, I worked out in that gym about, like, two, three months, I was like, okay, what happened? And he goes, I think it's not working out for us to have you here, you know, in this gym, you know, so it's some old guys

0:25:17 Guest: And some moms are complaining the way you dress yourself here. I was like, what's wrong with the way I dress myself, it's like pants and tank tops like everybody else. Also, I have, like, all the pictures on my Instagram, because I used to take pictures, you know, like, do, I used to do, like, the selfies, the gym selfies, and yeah, but you know, I'm gonna cancel your membership, you, I don't want you working out in this gym anymore, that's it.

I was like, how come, uh, there is nothing wrong with my clothes, I think you just make some excuse because I made a complaint about you, that's it. So I left, uh, I talked, you know, to the business director, uh, know, I called them, like, oh my god, like a hundred times, I recorded everything, and the business director was like, oh my god, it's, it's absurd, you know, it, it can't happen, isn't that, but you know, in the end, he did, they did nothing for me, and I was paying the gym, I couldn't use, you know, the gym two months later, because I was calling them like almost every day, because, hey, I'm paying, I need to go to the gym, like, I really need this, because, like, everybody has, you know, their thing that they use as a therapy, you, it's not only because I like to go to the gym, but because, like, I have, like, a condition and I need to go to the gym, like, my doctor said that I need to go through the gym because I have a condition, that, you know, and then if I do, you know, activities, it can help me, know, it can helps me.

0:26:50 Thomas: He tried to kick you out just for saying that the way you were dressing wasn't appropriate.

0:26:54 Guest: He did, actually, he did, I I can't go back, I can's, and can't. And the thing is, after that, you know, I put on Yelp, Facebook, Instagram, and everything, and another gym in the neighborhood, neighborhood, because I need a gym with daycare, and there is another gym that say you can't work out here, they kicked me out too because I don't want to be the media, like you did to another gym, so I just can't workout at all, because, you know, it's New York City, I just can't, I can't, like, move to another neighborhood because, because I want to work out.

0:26:55 Thomas: Oh, OK. Oh, wow.

0:27:29 Thomas: So he was able to get you banned from another gym, too. Or.

0:27:32 Guest: I guess he probably called, but I put on internet, so, you know, the owner, he he told me, he, he, like, he was very rude actually, he was like, I don't want you to work out in my gym because I don't want to be the media like you did to, you know, New York Sports Club. Basically, like, I just can't, I just can't, like, and why, just, just because I just didn't want to go, you know, for a lunch with the manager, like, it's really upset. Like, it really upsets me. Like, you everybody has, you know, their thing that they use like to relieve their stress.

And the the thing that I like to do is just work out, like, it's something healthy, and and actually that I need from my healthy, and I just can't do it like here because I just because I didn't want to go out with a guy, how crazy it is, like, with a married guy inviting me for lunch So I was talked to, you know, to my friends, uh, about this situation. And then a guy that works out at the same gym, New York Sports Club, I was like, oh, wait, so you're the the girl that was kicked out from the, you know, New York Sports Club. It was like, oh, I, I guess so.

He was like, "Oh, you know that you're not the first one." I was like, "Oh, I know that, you know, that happened before." But he didn't kick it out, you know, the other girls, I'm pretty sure, because he was like, "Oh, you know, this girl, she's, you know, immigrant, she, she can't speak English. So do you think she's gonna sue us?" You know, so then told me that he was harassing employee, and

0:27:37 Thomas: Oh, oh, OK, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

0:29:17 Guest: The employee told him, you know, that the same was going on with her. And she told, you know, the business director, who, like, "Oh, look, this is, it's happening here, and if you don't do something about it, you know, and I'm gonna sue, I'm gonna sue, you gonna sue the company." So they promoted her, so I like this guy, he's getting away with, you don't know, he's harassing girls at a gym and he's getting away with it, which is crazy. I just don't get it, like, how they just can't, you, cover him, know.

0:29:39 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's so frustrating, and I, I can totally understand. I mean, two gyms, not even one but two, that you're not allowed to go to, is

0:30:00 Guest: It's like, no, they want to, oh, you don't want to go out with me, so see that I'm going to, you know, I'm gonna try to make your life like a bit of hell. I can't speak the language like properly, I have problems, as you can see, to, you know, to express myself.

I know that I'm, I make some mistakes, I'm doing my best, but, you know, it's still, and I don't have, like, my family or, you know, friends to help me out, you know, to, so take care of my son, or to, to point it out, oh, look, you can go to this place or that place to solve your problem. And I had to call, you know, a lot of office and try to explain what happened to me with my English, especially because that happened last year, and it was worse, you know, my English, it's very, it's, it's frustrating, and at the same time I don't have too much time to, you know, to, you now, to look for help, like, you know, for a lawyer, this and that, because, as I told you, like, I'm a single mom, like, I have to do a lot of things, so

0:30:44 Thomas: Right.

0:30:55 Thomas: No.

0:31:04 Guest: It's hard.

0:31:04 Thomas: I Totally.

0:31:06 Guest: I feel helpless because there's nothing I can't do about it, and, like, sometimes, because the gym, it's basically on my corner, so sometimes I see him and he gives me some looks, looks like he laughs, you know, he stares at me, yeah.

0:31:26 Thomas: On this on The street, you're saying, like, just outside of

0:31:29 Guest: Just outside, and I, I have to look at the ground, on the ground, because what can I do, he won, you know, and he's gonna do that again, again, it's not gonna stop, like he did with me. Uh, another guy, you know, when I put on internet, another guy came, talk to me, and he said, oh, he was harassing my ex-girlfriend too. And then that, that happened into an employee, you, at the gym, and, you, it might happen before.

0:31:29 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:31:58 Guest: And getting away with it, you know. I'm sure that, you know, the girls, they might be embarrassed, because, oh, you know, maybe I'm showing a lot at the jump, because that's what he wants to make me feel like, embarrassed of myself, like, oh, you're showing off at the jam, so that's why I was hitting on you, you know, because then he said that he was kicking me out because of my clothes.

0:31:57 Thomas: Well, That's obviously just bullshit, but, like, even if it weren't, like, wouldn't you just say, okay, can't I wear something different, you know, like, why would he kick you out for that? Which obviously just him abusing his power.

0:32:30 Guest: Exactly. Exactly. Like No, I, I agree, like, if, if I was doing something wrong, he just could, you know, come to me and be like, "Oh, look, uh, you know, this is something that it's not appropriate in the gym, or in this country, or whatever, you know." But it wasn't like. Like, you know, yeah, like, I used to put, you know, to post, you know, my pictures, and I still have it, you know, on my Instagram, it's like, you know, everybody else, you know, I, I saw a lot of girls, you know, dressing like, you know. Wearing just shorts and, you know, tops, and

0:32:49 Thomas: But You're dressed like everybody else, basically, in the gym.

0:33:01 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That just makes me sick. I'm sorry this happened to you. I really, uh, I don't know what else to say, but thank you for sharing your story. I, I, uh wish you luck. I hope there's some way, you know, if, I don't know if you're going to go a legal route, but I do really hope that there's Some way you're able to get through and just get back to your routine, you Know, just get Back to being able to go about your, your business, because that's all you wanted to do is just kind of live your life and work out, right?

0:33:35 Guest: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And, you know, if mom is happy, my son is happy too, and if he sees that mom is unhappy, it's it's not only affecting me and my health, but it's affecting my son's life too. Thank

0:33:40 Thomas: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for sharing. Wish you luck, and I hope you can get it resolved.

0:33:54 Guest: You so much, thank you, Thomas, for inviting me for the show, thank you.

0:34:09 Thomas: I'm joined now by Tiffany. Tiffany, how you doing tonight?

0:34:12 Guest: I'm doing okay. Doing better than most. I'm doin' alright. Thanks for having me on the show, for real.

0:34:13 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, thank you so much for being willing to share.

0:34:20 Guest: I'm seeing the same stories over and over and again. And one thing that got me was, why don't people, the guys who defend these dudes, they're like, well why don' the women speak up? Why don't they speak up. Well, because reactions like the ones I saw,

0:34:36 Thomas: What are the kind of reactions you saw?

0:34:38 Guest: Oh, like, oh, why don't they talk? Why don't, if it's so bad, why aren't they talking? Why do they want money? You know, why settle? If you were sexually assaulted, why do you settle? Why didn't you tell anybody when it happened? That sort of thing. It's victim-blaming. It is victim-blaming in its purest, its puresta form.

0:34:48 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. And I saw, for example, I had someone, again, I want this, of course, to be about your story, but since you said that, I just remembered I had somebody comment on my Threads saying with a picture of like four or six of the Weinstein victims later on interacting with Weinstein, like, "Oh, there's such victims." You know, if you can find a good picture that they had, like maybe where they were in public and were smiling or something like that, somehow they haven't been victims. So I think that's the kind of thing that, that you might be talking about where it's like finding every way to try to defend somebody who, by the way, you don't even know, like why are they defending someone who's clearly a creep that they don't even know that. But anyway, uh, let's talk about your story.

0:35:15 Guest: Mm-hmm. Oh, for real?

0:35:38 Guest: Right. Because it's the idea, I think. It's the idea of Harvey Weinstein and why he did what he did.

0:35:46 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, or, and sometimes it's creepy. Like what, why are you so defensive about someone else's, you know, like what they did. What does that tell us about you?

0:35:59 Guest: Do they think it's like a get-out-of-jail-free card? You know what I mean? If they defend it? I'm sorry. Go ahead.

0:36:04 Thomas: No, no, that's okay. I didn't want to make this about a post that I had on my stupid Facebook. I wanted to hear your story. So feel free to go ahead and start telling us one of what I'm assuming is several stories you could could tell.

0:36:21 Guest: Oh. Yeah. I mean, first of all, for example, in high school, I was a very heavy-chested young lady, and high school was torture for me because the boys thought, hey, hey, she's developing faster than the other girls. That means I get to touch her. You know, and that was four years of just avoiding boys' hands, you know? And I told the principal and I told the teachers and they didn't do anything about it. I went through this really depressive phase where I wouldn't shower, you know, I wore dirty clothes. I just, because I didn't want to be looked at. It was my fault. And I grew up because nobody told me nobody told me it wasn't my fault you know what I mean, oh.

0:37:05 Thomas: Oh, I see. So, so at that age you had felt like it was your fault. So you were trying to, I'm

0:37:09 Guest: Yeah, yeah. This was the 90s and so nobody, it's your fault if your tits didn't stick out, then the boys wouldn't touch them. You know, that's the idea that

0:37:21 Thomas: Not really sure what you're supposed to do about that.

0:37:23 Guest: Exactly. You know, and here I am, 20 years later, going, this is what I wasn't seeing being, and so I think kids need to learn about, um, bodily autonomy, consent, you know, because I wasn't taught that stuff back in the 90s and It caused a lot of, not, I don't want to say acceptance, but you didn't complain, it was just something you just didn't talk about. Like, I had part-time jobs in restaurants and the guys would touch all the waitresses' asses and things like that. And it was just like something you just had to deal with. It was something you had to deal with.

0:37:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:01 Thomas: Yeah. It's especially in that, I, in that situation where it's like customer service.

0:38:04 Guest: Oh, the service industry is the worst. Like, um, I, I have a professional job right now and I've never, I don't have any sexual harassment issues there because they're taught, you know, they, they're training. There's, there's, um discussions about this sort of thing is not tolerated and it's very comfortable where I work. 10, 15 years ago? Oh, forget about it.

0:38:06 Thomas: Yeah exactly. Yeah yeah.

0:38:26 Guest: Forget about it."

0:38:28 Thomas: Well that's good. So do you feel like the, the training has made an impact at least where you are?

0:38:32 Guest: I think a lot of it has to do with education and the maturity level. So when you're in the service industry, not to discount anybody in the services industry, but you're not taught about about consent. You're just like, hey, this is what boys are supposed to do. And hey, you're a girl, you just have to deal with with it, especially if it's your boss.

0:38:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:55 Guest: It's my Specific story. I was at the time working, excuse me, in the service industry. And And I had a boyfriend that, um, I had been, and see, this is what made it difficult because this guy was my boyfriend. Okay. He was my boy friend and I was preparing to move overseas. It was a dream of mine to get a job overseas, to live there, to work there and to experience another culture. And I got that.

So for months and months and month, while I, you know, quit my old job to prepare to move, um. He was so supportive. "Oh, I'm so happy for you." But those things started getting darker and darker, as the time went on, and um, he's like, "Yeah, this is your dream, I want to support you, want to support you," right?

So I was working as a waitress and I used to visit him after work and um, I went to visit them like always, and this was the week before I was leaving, so it was almost time to go, and he basically, you know, we had had sex that night, you like regular, and then I was ready, ready to go home.

0:39:55 Guest: Like, all right, I'm leaving. He's like, oh, you're leaving again. I'm like, well, you know what I mean? I'm, I'm leaving to go. And he got angry with me and basically I wasn't allowed to leave. And yeah, yeah. Physically he stopped me and he sexually assaulted me. He raped me. Right. And the thing about it was we had had had sex previously that night.

0:40:09 Thomas: Physically he stopped you?

0:40:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:21 Guest: Right. And so as I was leaving, I was like, Oh, he was just angry. I don't know what I did. I had sex with him already. It's not like he raped me. I'm like, well, yes, yes it was because I did not consent to that session. You sexually assaulted me because you were jealous. You were losing your power over me because I was living. I was making my dreams comes true. Do you see what I mean?

0:40:51 Guest: It wasn't about the sex. It was about, I can't control this woman. The only thing I can do to control this woman is to assault her sexually. And

0:40:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, there's definitely a theme of entitlement in the stories I've heard so far. I think it, yeah.

0:41:05 Guest: Do And that's the word, entitlement. So he felt because he was already my boyfriend, he was entitled to take that autonomy away from me. No. He tried to make it so that I knew that no matter what kind of dream I had, that's all I was to him. Him. And any woman out there who is like, I don't know, was it rape or not? We had sex that night. He's my boyfriend. He hugged me afterwards. No, no, sweetheart. It's still rape. Okay. It has nothing to do with your relationship. It had nothing to deal with how he feels about you. You were just an object to him. That's one thing I noticed in the Me Too tags. A lot of women were saying the same things.

0:41:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask, so how did you react at the time? What did you do at the time?

0:42:01 Guest: At the time, I thought it was my fault. I wasn't even sure. I didn't even want to classify it as rape because I thought that rape was just something, see, and this is an old attitude, that rape is just something that happened in a parking garage with A guy sneaks up behind you with a knife. No, that's not how it goes. Grew up thinking that that. Rape happened to women who weren't careful. Rape happened to women who wandered around by themselves. You know, most rapes happen with people that you already know. You know? It's not like someone's jumping out the damn bushes and they pull you down. That doesn't happen. That's a fantasy.

And that's something that a lot of women need to get out of their head or it's never going to stop. It's somebody that you might trust and that's what makes it hurt even worse. It took me years to even admit to myself no, Tiffany, you weren't being weak. You weren't being a victim. You know, you, someone used their physical strength to try to tear you down because they were jealous of what you were doing with your life that didn't involve them. He

0:42:02 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

0:43:08 Thomas: Can ask, do you think that this person has any idea what he did?

0:43:14 Guest: Probably doesn't. I know. I don't think he does. To be honest, I don't think he even considered it. And I think, oh, I haven't spoken to him in decades, but I think if I did, he'd be like, wait, what did I? Well, yeah, you did. I didn't want that, but we had sex that night. That doesn't matter. You know, that first act I consented to, we had, you know, we had sex plenty of times, that time that was not the same. And you thought you might've been being rough. You, I was saying, no, I don't want to, I need to go. Oh no, no. I would just keep keep you here and do. No, that is not what people who are in an affectionate relationship do to each other. And that's one thing I want other women to understand. He may be your boyfriend. He may be a husband, but if he doesn't respect your autonomy, he's raping you. Period. People

0:43:17 Thomas: Yeah, I'm just curious. Yeah hmm. Right, right.

0:44:07 Thomas: Yeah

0:44:07 Guest: Think the R word is so dramatic, but it's really not. If we stop seeing it as this terrible dramatic word, then it's never going to stop. And people need to be taught that. That's what I think. It took years for me to realize what had happened to me.

0:44:07 Thomas: Yeah.

0:44:25 Thomas: So you mean I mean I think it it is a pretty dramatic thing. Do you just mean when if people People keep seeing it as this stereotypical person in the bushes scenario like that.

0:44:37 Guest: Well, and then nowadays, one thing that worries me is that as, as people start to understand what exactly rape is and what it's about, people are going to just start calling everything rape. And then you'll get like the, the MRAs going, oh, I looked at her funny. I must've raped her, you know? And then then you declassify it, delegitimize it. And that's another thing that worries me deal is delegitimizing the word rape, the act of rape, making it seem like, Oh, you're just being a drama queen as

0:45:07 Thomas: Yeah, it seems to me, tell me what you think about this, but it seems like it's an overreaction to this bit of, well, I don't want to call it privilege exactly, but previously it's as though people were able to get away with stuff. And then eventually and it's embarrassing how long it took for this country to realize things like marital rape were possible. You know, like it took a very long time. So it's like an overreaction to that. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. And it took it. So, it's, like, oh, what's next? You know, like, what's the next thing, and I think that it's such a, it's an obvious overreacting when really, I mean, just it's doing sexual things to a person without their consent, like it's pretty simple.

0:45:28 Guest: Yes. The nineties, right? Yeah, exactly.

0:45:55 Guest: People don't like to, it's a privilege, it's, um, they don't, they, if they think that somebody else is getting, um, equality that they're losing it, know, when it comes to women, it's like, oh, what's next, you know, I can't look at a woman now, it's the same thing, I think.

0:46:13 Thomas: So can I ask when do you remember or have any clear idea of when you kind of realized what this was? Because it sounds like at first you might have played it off to yourself a little bit.

0:46:18 Guest: Yes. I did, I definitely played it off to myself. And, um, I, I was, I remember when I got home that night and I took a shower and I scrubbed myself, I stayed in the shower way longer than I usually did. And I'm like, why does this feel so bad to me? It's not like we never had sex before. Why am I trying to scrub this feeling away? Yeah, cause I blame myself. I thought it was all my fault.

Have gone over there, I made him angry, and that's what that was, you know, I was young, I didn't know better, and I think that's what it is, it's um, people who who don't understand what exactly sexual assault is and You just blame yourself, it's my fault, I shouldn't have been there, I shouldn't have made him angry, and so I guess as I got older and I read more about it and I've read other people's stories, that's why I'm telling you mine, you Know, then I realized, holy shit, he raped me, and here I am, I thought, I was, because first of all, I'm a student, I graduate, you know, that sort of thing, I'm intelligent, I was a teacher, how could this happen to me, you because you have that idea that all rape just happens to floozies that walk down the street by themselves, themselves, no, it could be anybody.

0:47:05 Thomas: Yeah. Mm hmm.

0:47:45 Thomas: Yeah, that the definitely that sort of cartoonish idea of what it is makes makes people unaware. Unaware.

0:47:50 Guest: Absolutely. That's The perfect word for it, man, cartoonish. No, you're right, because it's a caricature, you of femininity, it's the caricature of masculinity, you, like one of those old Tex Avery cartoons where the wolf's eyes pop out of his head because he sees a pretty girl, that's not how sexuality is supposed to be, it's just natural. It's just something that guys do. No, it's not. And I think men would benefit from this too. If they learned that you don't have to use your penis to put your power over somebody.

0:48:29 Thomas: Well, I also I also Yeah, and I think that definitely education is again, it does sound like from where you started this conversation, when you mentioned your work, it does seem like that can make a difference, at least in That way. So

0:48:40 Guest: Oh yes. If I want to say to any woman who has a doubt that maybe what happened wasn't what, what I thought it was, sit down and ask yourself, you know, did I feel a real connection with this person when we were having sex, or did it feel like I wasn't a part of it? I was just letting it happen to me. Is he doing it because of something I did? No, no, you should never ask yourself that. If he loves you and if he's your boyfriend, your partner, then he would, would respect your autonomy. He doesn't see you as a person. He's probably sexually assaulting you.

0:49:18 Thomas: And and I would add, of course, you know, anybody needs to respect a time, not just a boyfriend, I mean, of course, any, any Casual, Uh, just anything, I mean, that's key, I really think teaching consent, uh, It's It is Key.

0:49:23 Guest: Oh yeah, absolutely. Oh yes. Oh my goodness.

0:49:31 Thomas: But but yeah, thank you so much for sharing, I, I definitely, uh, I do hope sharing these stories and and just bringing Education and awareness to it will make a difference. That's the only thing we can hope.

0:49:38 Guest: Oh, yes. And one more thing. Do not be ashamed. Don't be ashamed, it's not your fault. Okay. That's another thing. Shame is a great tool for rapists. Don't Be Ashamed. It's not, your fault, it is his fault.

0:49:52 Thomas: Yeah. Thanks for sharing your story. I really hope it can make some difference. And I'm glad that it seems as though some of those attitudes and some of that maybe denial or whatever, I'm Glad that's something you overcame. And it sounds like you've made a healthy recovery on it. So thanks so much for sharing.

0:49:58 Guest: No problem.

0:50:18 Thomas: Go ahead.

0:50:11 Guest: Yes. Yes, it did not. It was not overnight. It does not happen overnight. All right. That's all I have to say. Not you, sweetheart. Any sweethearts out there listening?

0:50:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, Tiffany, if hey, people would like to hear more of you, I hear that they definitely can. So if you want to throw out your your plugs, please feel free.

0:50:34 Guest: Oh, sure. Um, I co-host Angry Black Rant once in a while. You'll see, you'll hear me on there. I am also on a YouTube show called The Road to Reason. It's a skeptic's guide to the 21st century. And we talk about, you know, atheism, logic, reason. It is a great show. And my Twitter is the TH Bandit. And that is it. I really do not do much.

0:50:57 Thomas: That's awesome. Thank you so much. Uh, definitely check those out, everybody. And uh, yep, thanks for sharing.

0:51:02 Guest: Thank you for having me.

0:51:03 Thomas: Oh, No problem.

0:51:19 Thomas: I wanna thank again all three of my guests for coming on and sharing their stories. I know that can't have been easy, but I really appreciate it and I can only hope it will make a difference.

And I also want to say if you're someone who has been a victim of something like this and didn't want to share and didn't want to type up your whole story for a hashtag, I very much respect that and I don't at all mean to suggest that you ever owe your pain to anyone else. You don't owe anything to anybody. Whatever is best for you as a victim of this kind of thing, please do so.

But I just want to thank the three women who are willing to come on the show, and I want to thank everyone who shared on the MeToo hashtag. You know, I really do think it will make a difference and at least takes away this plausible deniability of anyone who is somehow unaware of this problem, you know, because there is no more excuse for being unaware that this goes on. Seems to be that what is really needed is to teach people about consent, is to teach men that they are not entitled to women, because I won't speak for my guests, but if I were to just guess, just to take a guess from speaking to them and hearing their stories, for all three of them, if the perpetrators of what happened had taken no for an answer. The first no, I just, you know, no, no thank you. I'm not interested.

Had taken that no for an answer. I don't think it would even be a story. You know, like I don't, I mean, I have to imagine that it wouldn't even make it in, in memory really, because that's not the thing. This overreaction of, oh, what's next? I can't hit on anyone or I can't be attracted to anyone or I can't try to have sex with anyone.

0:53:05 Thomas: No, but there is a very real problem of not taking no for an answer. And by the way, there are also times when it is very inappropriate to hit on someone, but at the very least, if nothing else, if we could teach men to take no for an answer, that would be a huge step up. So, my fellow man, and of course everyone, No means no. Consent is vital. I used to be surprised when I would hear stories of some guy I know who, you know, was weird. Oh, he's never been weird to me, but he was weird to you, female friend? Huh. You know, yeah, the first one or two times that was surprising. But very quickly you realize it's not surprising. It's commonplace.

0:53:51 Thomas: Stop being surprised when you hear these stories and start listening. That's what I think. So thank you so much to my guests. Thank you again to Felicia Entwistle for helping set this up and I will see you guys on Thursday.