SIO74: Interview with a Dreamer on #DACA

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 74, I'm your host Thomas Smith, and this year in podcasting for me could probably just be called, well I was going to talk about this, but then Trump, and that's pretty much, but usually it's like I was gonna talk about another Trump thing and then he did another thing, so you can't really plan ahead in the podcasting world these days. Anyways.

I had some thing I wanted go into, I'll save it for another day, because it turns out a friend of a friend is a DACA beneficiary, I don't know what you would, it's not really a recipient, but you'll see what the details of the program are a little bit, but he has an interesting story, but also it seems like a very typical story of what it means to be an undocumented person and a child of an undocumented person brought over at a very young age, and I thought it would just be a great opportunity to put a voice to what's really happening, to put an actual human behind this policy, so to help illustrate how unnecessarily evil this is to end this policy.

In my mind, feel free to write in if you disagree, I cannot not think of a downside, really, of this policy. It is so specific. It gives up so much to the right in order to make sure, as you'll hear, in order that it's not taken advantage of, it applies to a limited subset of people who are 100% employed, who are a certain age. I mean, it's such a no-brainer for a policy for me.

0:02:02 Thomas: But it's also just a temporary fix. Like we should just make this law and we need to do some reform, but ending DACA with no reform forthcoming is a, is a horrible move. It's, it's pure xenophobia, plain and simple, in my opinion. So I wanted to try to illustrate that I would have, I could have analyzed it, but I think having someone come on and talk about it from, from a real first person perspective, I thought would be a better way to do it. So with that said, I want to thank Christian for coming on and talking about his experience as an undocumented person in California. And with that, let's get over to that interview. How you doing, Christian?

0:02:55 Christian: I'm doing good, good, thank you.

0:02:58 Thomas: Well, okay, that's good, I'm glad you're doing well, but there hasn't been the greatest of news lately, how do you feel about what's going on right now?, yeah,

0:03:11 Christian: I Don't know, I guess part of me is kind of in shock, it's, you know, you don't really expect these things to happen, and then the other me, the other part of me is just kind of like, well, it is Donald Trump, he is, as you know, crazy and kind of loose cannon, as people expected, and he sure as heck is delivering on those promises, sure.

0:03:35 Thomas: So, thank you so much for coming on and agreeing to talk on the show about this, I really think it's going to be worthwhile and important to get your story out there, so So what is your story? Do you want to go into your background, how

0:03:49 Christian: Sure, sure, so, um, when I was five years old, and I think I had just turned five years older, my parents, uh, brought, brought me to this country, uh, illegally, uh, we crossed the border, um, in Arizona, and then I remember, uh, getting into a car and, like, sitting at, like, basically my mother was on the passenger side and I was like kind of stuffed between, like, her, her feet and like the glove compartment, and we basically drove non-stop from Arizona, uh, to California.

0:04:24 Thomas: What country did your parents come from?

0:04:25 Christian: So my parents are originally from Mexico, and so am I. Yeah, I, I don't remember much, much of, of that story, I just remember things that my parents have told me about that experience, um, because again, like so

0:04:27 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Do you know much from their perspective? Well, first off, yeah? Do you know what was their reasoning, like what was going on in their minds for why they made Made this, you know, immense decision to take this on. And then how difficult was getting across the border and all that? How dangerous was it?

0:04:38 Christian: Um My parents were really young when they decided to do this, I, I think they were in their mid-20s, and mother's entire family lived in the U.S. A lot of them are legal citizens, but she was not. And so the kind of plan was that she was actually going to cross with me and my younger sister. And we were going to kind of make the trip out here. And my dad, who ran a business in Mexico, he was just going to head back and kind of continue the business. And, and he got to the border and was like, well, you know, I mean, I can't really leave my wife and my five year old and four year old, you know, to fend for themselves. So kind of, you know, spur of the moment decision, he decided to cross over as well.

0:05:46 Christian: We attempted to cross. I think it was like directly through a border fence, and, um, we actually ended up getting, um, we got caught the first time, yeah, we got, we got cut the first, they didn't document anything, so there's nothing on our record that or anything like that, but I remember, um, my mom telling me that, um, the border patrol agent pointed basically to, um, a door and spoke to her in Spanish and said, you know, that's your, your country. You're going to exit through that door and you're never going to look back. And so my mom grabbed me and my little sister, and we did exactly, she did exactly as we were told, but like the next week we were, we were back in a, we were attempting to cross again because my parents, they really wanted a better life for us.

0:06:34 Christian: They wanted, you know, they wanted us to succeed to be somewhere where we had a lot of opportunity. So we ended up doing a more dangerous route.

0:06:44 Christian: And through the desert, I can't, I don't know much of the details, all I know is my mom always tells this story about how there was some plant that I fell into, and my dad and, like, the rest of the group that we were with, they were like walking really fast, and my mom was like freaking out because she couldn't pull me out of this plant that I had gotten stuck in, and she just, like, yelled out my dad's name, and he just, like, turned around and just, like, scoops me up, and but completely rips the plant out of the ground along with me, and so, like, then they just trek forward because it was one of those instances where good of the group outweighed the good of the one. So if anybody got left behind in the desert, that's where you got left.

0:07:24 Thomas: That's really scary.

0:07:25 Christian: Yeah, I remember we got into that car in Arizona, and they told us, we're going to drive nonstop. I don't really know how long the drive is from Arizona to California. And just for anonymity's sake, or, or to, to keep certain details, um, safe, I'm, I'm leaving out some, some names of town things like that Don't, yes.

0:07:40 Thomas: Sure. Sure. Sure. But was California where your mom's family was? Is that why? Or were you just trying to get further? Oh, okay.

0:07:50 Christian: Yeah. So.

0:07:52 Thomas: Roughly where are we dealing? Like central California, southern California?

0:07:52 Christian: So. Yeah, like the northern Central Valley, quite a I

0:07:57 Thomas: Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's a drive. It's definitely a drive, yeah. Maybe 12 hours, maybe more. Might be more than that.

0:08:05 Christian: Remember, uh, this is a more embarrassing detail, but I remember, I, uh, you know, five years old, how, how can you tell a little five-year-old that we can't stop on a 12-hour drive? And I peed my pants, and we didn't stop.

0:08:19 Thomas: That is 12 hours. You are not going to get through 12 hours as a kid. So, I know it was your parents' decision, and that is kind of the point of all this, but is there no outlet to do this legally, I

0:08:23 Christian: Yeah. So the moment we got here, my mom, it's not like they just decided, oh, we're just going to work here illegally or things Like that. I mean, I think every immigrant that comes over, number one, they don't – it's not like they, they come to the U.S. illegally to circumvent, um, and get an easy way in into the system, because life, I should, I really want to stress this, that life as an undocumented immigrant is not an easy lifestyle by any stretch of the imagination, um, so the moment she, she came over, that was number one priority, it was like we, she needed to legalize, she needed, and, and she had the, the best option because she had family that was already citizens. So what you have to do is you have to have, especially in family cases, you have a sponsor, basically. Somebody that already has their citizenship or legal residency petitioned in your favor for you to process started, correct?

0:08:38 Thomas: Right. Right.

0:09:26 Christian: Countries actually have different, the U.S. immigration system has different quotas for different countries. For example, it is a lot easier to get a green card, as they call it, or legal residency from a country that there isn't a lot of immigration coming to the US. So for example, a lot European nations or a lot Asian nations, it's a lot easier to getting legal status because there's not as many immigrants moving from those countries. Unfortunately, Mexico has a very low quota because there is such high demand for immigration. At the time, it was the mid-90s. They told my mother that it was going to be about an 11-year wait for her to get her legal residency, and then that's on top of lawyer fees and application fees and things like that.

0:10:21 Christian: And as of today, it's been, uh, or as of this summer, it's been about 20 years, a little over 20 years, and she still is in that queue.

0:10:30 Thomas: She's Oh. Wow. Oh, wow, okay.

0:10:32 Christian: This whole time, she actually, she actually has about, I think, like three different petitions through, like, three people, hoping that, like, one of them will kind of move a little bit faster, and, and that's not like, oh, three, just go apply for three different, different petisions, I think the initial application fee is something, oh, god, I couldn't tell you, but it's in the thousands of dollars to Apply, yeah.

0:10:32 Thomas: So she's been trying this whole time, oh, Geez. So Your dad just left his business behind, okay.

0:10:58 Christian: Oh. Yeah, completely, completely, um, his family lived, uh, lived in Mexico, and, uh, and, like, my parents, um, they didn't own a home, but it was, it was kind of like a home that was passed down through my mother's side, and, uh, we've only, I've only heard stories, obviously we can't ever visit, but, um, my dad's family kind of went and tried to clean out as best they could, but by the time they had gotten over there, it was like, you know, it had been about months when my dad kind of decided like, well, we're not going back, and, and, you know, the place had kind of been abandoned and ransacked by that point, yeah.

0:11:35 Thomas: So What was the, what, what was their plan for making a living for themselves?

0:11:41 Christian: Well. Right away, um, right away, as soon as, uh, we got here, my dad, um, started working in the fields. And did my mom. I think they both picked tomatoes in the Central Valley. And they also did a host of other things, which they absolutely hated. I mean, I've worked multiple jobs throughout my life. And the one thing that my parents have have always told me is is they, even as an adult, they'll like look down upon me, because they're like, do not, do not go work in the fields, that is one of the hardest things that they've ever had to do, and it's, they just shudder at the idea of even going back.

0:12:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:22 Thomas: Yeah, well, because I'm trying to think of it from their perspective. Like, that's obviously, yeah, that has got to be one of the hardest jobs there is. But they left where your dad had a business, right? I mean, that couldn't have been that bad of a job, right. I'm just wondering, was it just what were the factors do you think that made it so that that was bad enough to want to go risk all this, come in, possibly work, you know, one of the worst jobs that there could be? How does that, how was that decision made?

0:12:55 Christian: Both of my parents grew up really, really poor, and I think my dad was, was doing, uh, fairly good, I couldn't, I couldn't tell you, we don't really talk much about it. But I, I would imagine, though, that that there was such a strong impetus for them to, to come over. I mean, there had to, there had to happen, you know?

0:13:06 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, makes sense, I was just trying to understand it, but yeah, I'm sure there must be some reason that they decided to risk all that, that, so So tell me about life growing up then, how was it being, you undocumented for your, I guess, all four of you at this point, or where did you have more siblings, right?

0:13:22 Christian: Oh yeah.

0:13:33 Christian: Uh, it was four of us at this point. And then I think my mother got pregnant a year after we, we were here. Cause then, yeah, I have a younger sibling. But yeah, life, life growing up wasn't, um, I don't know, I guess as a, as a child, you don't, you don't really question how Things are, I mean, when we first got here, it was like, it was like five different families living in like a one bedroom house. So it was kind of, I, but again, as like a child, you just, that's just the norm. You just are kind of like, well, all my cousins live with me and that's where we're at. Right, my parents were able to to move out.

And it was, it was my parents and my two sisters and I, and we moved into a one bedroom house as well, which was a lot more comfortable. And, um, but yeah, I mean, growing up, I didn't, I didn't speak any English, obviously. I had never taken English lessons or anything to that effect. So I went into kindergarten, um, not speaking a single word of English. I, I, in fact, I still remember the first word I learned in English, uh, which was what. I

0:13:52 Thomas: Yeah.

0:14:44 Christian: Guess I I just like that stuck with me because I guess I saw people kind of like, well, they got an answer if they said this word. So like that that is how my yeah my mind just gravitated to that, to like what. And, uh, eventually, yeah, I was able, I picked up pretty quickly. I, I can imagine that the kids have a propensity to just pick up languages, uh, fairly quickly and. And by the time I was in first grade, I was speaking fluently and, yeah, I never developed an accent. So I was really lucky on that part. In fact, growing up, a lot of my teachers all throughout my schooling, they would just assume that English had always been my first language. And then they would meet my parents at like back to school night or whatever. And they would always ask me, Christian, where are you from? And I'm like, oh, well, I was born in Mexico. And they're like, they were just astounded at, uh, at

0:14:43 Thomas: Makes sense yeah right yeah okay

0:15:44 Christian: My grasp of English, which, which to me was always really jarring. And, and, and there was a time when I kind of became embarrassed because it was my parents. My dad speaks fluent English, but he has a very, very, very heavy accent. Um, oh

0:15:58 Thomas: I was gonna ask that, yeah so, but did they speak any English at the time, or is it since that they've developed some English?

0:16:06 Christian: No, it's, it's, it's as adults as adults they they, um, they found the necessity. I mean, growing up, me and my sister would have to translate everything for them, I mean, we were like their little secretaries that they would just haul around, which is like a little intimidating for a child, because imagine, you know, going to whatever it may be, like a government office, or anywhere from like a government office, like jack-in-the-box and you have, like you have to be the voice for your parents.

0:16:08 Thomas: Okay, yeah, yeah.

0:16:34 Thomas: Oh, man. That's really interesting. It's like another level of like, you know, your kids handling electronics for you or something. Like, it's like, another level of that, that's so interesting

0:16:34 Christian: Right oh yeah, oh yeah, I mean, and we did that too because it was like my dad wanted to watch a movie on television and I had to try and tell him what the TV guide said, you know, I think

0:16:47 Thomas: Oh yeah wow For your mom, as undocumented, what's it like to have a baby in this country?

0:17:02 Christian: Guess the idea of, of having a child, it's not, it's not too different. I mean, um, a lot of people get this, this concept of like, and especially because it's been thrown around, this idea of like the anchor baby, which is like, oh, because you have a citizen child, now, like, you don't run the risk of deportation, which is not true at all. Every yeah every single day, um, my parents are in fear, because they actually, so I have that sister who is a citizen, and then, uh, another younger, even younger sister, uh, who, who is also born here, and let me tell you, that does, does not quell my parents' fear 100, like, at all.

0:17:21 Thomas: Especially not now okay not at all I would, and, and what I was more asking was actually like literally having the baby, like, like, what, does she just go to a hospital and then everything's okay? I mean, how does that work when you're undocumented? It's not like you're able to have health coverage, or was there some sort of coverage, or is it just going to the hospital?

0:17:43 Christian: They are oh no no no, I Actually, I have an uncle who, um, is, he's now a citizen, but, uh, he's actually still paying off hospital bills from his, uh, second daughter's birth about uh, and she is, uh, she's like 28 or 29, yeah. Mean you can, you can, can qualify, uh, you can purchase health insurance. That's, uh, health insurance isn't like a thing that is exclusive, uh, to citizenship, and a lot of a lot, yeah, a lot, a lot, things, um, are not things that like require credit.

0:18:14 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Oh really okay well that might be a good question, what are the kinds of things, yeah, what are the kinds you can and can't do, you know, that, that I, I would never, it would never occur to me, I'm not, you know, just being a citizen.

0:18:47 Christian: I It's hard to answer that question because in theory you can really do a lot the same things, you're just gonna pay a lot more. So, for example, buying a car, you can buy a car. You just can't get a loan from the bank. So a lot of the times you'll be financed through either the dealership with higher interest rates or, you know, you're going to go from used car to used car, to used card.

0:18:55 Thomas: Yeah yeah just kind of paying cash for stuff, or yeah and

0:19:12 Christian: Uh-huh. Exactly. I mean, things like, you bank account, those things, they've changed recently and they've made it a little bit easier for undocumented people to get bank accounts. They can now use, uh, IDs from the Mexican Consulate and things like that. Like, things that you can't do when you're undocumented, um, can't fly in a plane, you, because you need some, a form of, of legal state issued ID. You can never leave the country, which is kind of a given, I suppose, but, um, not a lot of people actually give it much thought, uh,

0:19:51 Thomas: For all we know, until some solution is figured out here, you haven't been able to go on a trip, really, like fly somewhere and go, wow, I've just never, I didn't think about that.

0:20:02 Christian: Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things that really hit home for me. When I was in eighth grade, my graduating class, as like a graduation trip over the summer, wanted to go to New York, right? And I remember, number one, monetary reasons, reasons my parents told me, but number two, it was like, but

0:20:10 Thomas: Yeah, right. Yeah. I was gonna say, I was never allowed to do any of those trips either, but different reasons.

0:20:28 Christian: Number two was because I couldn't fly. Another instance growing up was I wanted to join band when I was a kid. And obviously those instruments are so expensive, but I, my parents couldn't get any kind of credit or any kindof financing when I was growing up. So I could I was not able to join the band. It

0:20:44 Thomas: Yeah? What Was it like as a kid? Did you, I mean, when did you kind know that you were in a different set of circumstances than a lot of, you know, your friends or whatever? Did you know right from the beginning or was there any process of kind of figuring that out?

0:21:02 Christian: Was It was interesting because I went to school in an area that that was predominantly white, predominantly either upper middle class or lower upper class area. Guess growing up, it didn't really phase me until I was about in my teens. One of the biggest things that I remember is I could not get a driver's permit when I was 16 because I didn't have a valid social security number. So I remember all of my friends starting to, you know, drive and things like that. And there I was, a senior in high school, still riding the bus all the way home. Yeah, things like that. One of the really, really, you know, hard hitting ones was you get pressured really hard in high school, obviously, to achieve good grades and to go to a good college.

And especially when you're coming from like a low income household, you get pressured incredibly hard to try and make something better of your life. And I been trying really hard. I had gotten really good grades. My GPA was decent. I'd scored really well on my SATs. And, I remember beginning to apply for colleges and, know, starting to to fill out the FAFSA form and realizing that I could not get any government assistance.

0:21:25 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:22:25 Christian: And so I ended up not going to any four-year university because I could Not afford it.

0:22:30 Thomas: How are you supposed to afford that without any sort of, because you can't get any loans really, right, in like government or non-government, right? Geez. It might be like some, okay.

0:22:38 Christian: Exactly. I think nowadays, there are a few privatized loans that I can apply for. But again, the interest rates are like through the roof. So oh,

0:22:43 Thomas: Yeah. And That's already, I mean, college debt is already so tough to begin with. Like, if you're not undocumented, I can't imagine. I mean, it's I'm still paying it off. Yeah.

0:22:54 Christian: Yeah. Oh, yeah, oh, Yeah, I mean, it is crazy. Like, yeah, I never went to a four-year university, so I never got a degree. And I know plenty of people that have or that are in programs, and I'm like, kudos to them because they are not getting any kind of government assistance. I think about a year after I graduated, California passed a law saying that undocumented immigrants... So number one, it was worse because when I had just graduated, undocumented immigrants had to pay Not only did they have to pay out of pocket, but all of their units were also charged as out-of-state tuition.

0:23:14 Thomas: Yeah.

0:23:34 Christian: So imagine seeing the bill, and then it quadrupled. So it was something that was so out of reach. And then I think a year after I graduated, California passed a law saying that you had to meet certain regulations. But if you can prove that, then you can still have to play out of market, but it's in-state tuition per unit.

0:23:39 Thomas: Yeah.

0:23:57 Thomas: Well, that's slightly better, I suppose, so

0:24:01 Christian: But there have been also Um, multiple, multiple, uh, with varying degrees of of success to pass a Dream Act on a state level. Unfortunately, if it's on a state level, it's usually to give some kind of assistance in helping them move forward with their lives, as opposed to actually giving them citizenship or or any kind of legal status, because that requires federal intervention. So Was telling you about how they passed in California the idea that undocumented immigrants could pay in-state tuition. And then after that, in 2010, I was able to qualify for things like the BOG waiver at community colleges.

0:24:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:25 Thomas: Okay. That makes sense.

0:24:40 Thomas: Oh, okay. So is that what you did?

0:24:42 Christian: So, yeah, to school one whole year having to pay things out of pocket. And I still took a full course load, and then the following year I, they passed that and I was able to qualify for the BOG waiver, and it was like just the biggest breath of relief. So

0:24:57 Thomas: So what are the details of that? What does that do?

0:24:59 Christian: The BOG waver at most community colleges, or the Board of Governors Fee Waiver, is you have to prove that you are low income, uh, in under a certain threshold, and they basically, you don't pay for a certain amount of units that you are taking. Assistance on things like books, and you don't get on housing and things like that.

0:25:25 Thomas: So this was the way you were able to at least get some college credits going, but it was still, you a long way from being able to actually get into a four-year university or something like that.

0:25:37 Christian: I was able to take general ed courses and kind of work towards at least an AA degree or if not, like I said, my general ed, but it was still a long shot from getting into a four-year university?

0:25:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:52 Thomas: So can you tell me about DACA then, how that affected you? And I guess we'll start there. Well,

0:25:58 Christian: So DACA or Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals was a program that was an executive order that was implemented by President Obama in 2012. And basically what it what it granted was a valid Social Security number, a work permit and a bit of not immunity, but like, I don't know the best way to describe it. It's, yeah,

0:26:20 Thomas: Maybe deferred action, that's the best way to describe it. Yeah.

0:26:23 Christian: I mean, as long as you didn't commit any crimes, I mean, and absolutely no crimes, you didn'T have to fear ICE or Immigrations and Customs Enforcement as much. And when I say valid social security number, that's only a social security member to work, still not a valid social security member, you know, to apply for a home loan or things like that.

0:26:42 Thomas: You know, I just occurred to me, I could ask this earlier, but how did, how did, uh, how did taxes work? Because that gets talked about a lot, you know, like what taxes do undocumented immigrants pay. How did that work, work for you?

0:26:49 Christian: Oh, sure. So my parents have been paying taxes since the moment they were, were here, number one, uh, they're

0:26:58 Thomas: The tax man will always find you. Yeah.

0:26:59 Christian: Oh Yeah, I mean, a lot of people have this idea that, like, immigrants don't pay taxes, but that's a lie because, number one, what's, when you pay for a dollar soda McDonald's, you're still paying eight cents in tax. I mean, everything, everything is taxed, right? So Having those people spend their money in this country is already bringing in tax revenue, correct?

0:27:16 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

0:27:19 Christian: But I think what a lot of people focus on is is how do these people pay income tax if they're not paying, you know, if they don't have valid social security numbers and things like that. So what you do is you file through the IRS for what's known as an ITIN number. So it's an identification tax ID number. And it basically works like a social security number. You pay your income taxes using that number. Unfortunately, undocumented immigrants don't qualify for any social security benefits or Medicare benefits or food stamps or things like that. So all of the money that they are putting into the system, they will never, ever receive a single cent back.

0:28:03 Thomas: There's this impression that undocumented immigrants are able to come in here, not pay any taxes, and then kind of reap the rewards of the system. That sounds like a far cry from what your reality was. Yeah.

0:28:17 Christian: Yeah. I mean, yeah, no. Um, the reality of it was we, we never, uh, I've never known a single person that was undocumented that was on food stamps or that, um, had, you know, full healthcare coverage or that. I don't know. I meantime, there's so many ideas that, uh uh, of what we have. And I, I I really think it's, it's this xenophobic fear of immigrants and also the, a fear of the poor that's been created.

0:28:47 Thomas: Yeah. There's been a war on the poor and a war in immigrants for as long as the country's been around, really. It seems like So back to DACA then, um, so what problems did that make a little easier for you, and what, what problems did not solve?

0:28:54 Christian: Oh yeah. So I was able to get better paying jobs. I didn't have to, you know, uh, fear that exactly

0:29:08 Thomas: Right, so You're not working at like just under the table anymore essentially, okay.

0:29:12 Christian: Like I'm not hidden anymore. I can, I can apply for, you fun, well, quote unquote, fun jobs, or better paying jobs and not have to fear. And it didn't help my, this isn't my story, but I know a lot of people who did have their degrees and could not work in things like government offices or, you knows, schools or doctors, things like that. They were now, that became accessible to them because they had this this valid social security number and work permit, if you had your degree, you can now work in the field that your degree called for.

0:29:18 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:29:50 Christian: Because I know plenty of people that, you know, they went to school and they got their bachelor's in, God, I don't know, in like you know, young children or what have you, graphic design and things like that. But they really couldn't work in that field. And so they were stuck, you know, washing dishes at like a Denny's or something like that

0:30:07 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think about that. So this, that has a lot of benefit then. DACA, I think it's safe to say, mean, I know it's not a perfect solution, it doesn't solve everything, but but it definitely makes things easier. And it allows you to do more work and essentially pay more taxes, right? It's probably, and there's a fee, right, so they're getting all kinds of money from you, aren't they?

0:30:26 Christian: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, the vetting process for DACA, like I touched upon it earlier, but it is for initial applicants is ridiculous. I mean, it is I could I could at this point, I'm fairly certain I could like run the Pentagon and have a clearer record than most of those people.

0:30:44 Thomas: Yeah, take us through it. That's

0:30:51 Christian: I'm not kidding when I say it's, it's a $500 upfront, uh, application fee, and that includes, um, your biometrics fee, and but that does

0:31:00 Thomas: A lot of money, by the way. Like, that's a law, especially, I mean, that would have been a lot money for me as a privileged, like, totally citizen, you know, of went to college, but imagine being undocumented on kind of a cash basis. That's a lot of money.

0:31:00 Christian: Oh, yeah, I, it's, it, it definitely, it was one of those things where you had to anticipate it you were, you know yeah, it, but, but it was a decision that you didn't think about, you had, there wasn't, I mean, you you, the moment that was announced, my parents literally were like, you're gonna go in tomorrow and start filling out the paperwork.

0:31:20 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That is a big decision.

0:31:36 Christian: And, and they straight, they, they, I mean, I had the money, but they told me they were like, it doesn't matter, we will borrow it if you need it, like, because it was me and my sister in our household who had that opportunity, so that was a thousand dollars from our household, and for me, at least, five hundred dollars. Um, you had to prove, god, let me see if I can remember all the initial requirements.

0:31:28 Thomas: Okay. Yeah, right, right. Right. Yeah.

0:31:56 Christian: You had to prove that you had been here, I think, a consecutive seven years might have been the amount. I can't remember the exact amount of time that you have to prove consecutively. All I remember is that me and my sister ended up printing about seven or 10 years.

0:32:21 Christian: I, for all that time. So we, um, we got a hold of pg and e and, um, they were able to to kind of send us a copy of these, and we both had to send in. So that was like, you know, a crazy amount of paperwork. And then you have to jump through a million hoops, and they, they do a full background check, and you have to fill out, you have put in where the residency that you've had over the past x amount of years. And have you ever committed a felony? Do you have any misdemeanors on your records? Then on top of that, you had to prove somehow that you were in the country the day that President Obama issued the DACA order. Order exactly so I think I ended up at sending like a bank statement of some McDonald's that I had bought that day, like, um, and then, um, oh, yeah, I, I had a bank at that time, yeah, I

0:33:03 Thomas: Probably to appease Republicans like they didn't want people coming in because of that or something. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh wait. So you were able to have a bank account then I thought you weren't. Oh, okay. How, how were you able to, cause I thought after like 9-11, they made you have ID and stuff like that. Wasn't it really hard to get a bank account?

0:33:36 Christian: Mean, it was, they had, um, I was able to get a bank account because I had, uh, um, Mexican consulate ID. Yeah. So that was, so not only did I have to show the Mexican consulate ID, I really, I think I had to show my Mexican passport ID. And then I was able to open a student account because I also had my like high school ID.

0:33:42 Thomas: Oh, Okay. Okay.

0:33:59 Christian: So, that like proved that I had also gone to high school here. So again, whereas like a regular person could just walk in kind of with like a a driver's license, I had to consistently carry at least like three forms of ID with me, um, god, there was a few other requirements, and then you send all of that in, you wait, and then they they send you back a letter saying that, you know, about a week and a half later they send you back saying like, "We've accepted your application and it's in processing," and then you wait some more, and then, um, about a month and a half later, uh, I got a letter saying like, "We're gonna have to, we need you to head down to, um, this place, and we're gonna basically, um, question you, and we'll take, uh, you know, your fingerprint scans and your pictures and all of that stuff." So I drive down to this government office, and they, you know, it's a whole day ordeal, and I do that, and then

0:34:04 Thomas: Right. Yeah. You had to jump through a bunch of hoops. Yeah, okay, Now let me ask you at that, that point. I mean, how did that feel? Because there must have been some, I don't know if distrust is the right word, but I'm sure you had to be a little worried throughout your whole life of like, am I ever going to just be kicked out of this country, right?

0:34:59 Christian: I oh yeah, I mean, there's, I remember walking into these government offices, and anytime they'd have to ask me to fill out a paper, like any kind of paperwork, I would return it, and like, you could barely read the handwriting on it, because my palms had sweated through the paper, so the ink wasn't sticking to any of the paper. I mean, it was, it was that bad.

But luckily, I, I had a lot of of friends who, um, were kind of in the know about either friends that like, you know, worked at lawyers' offices, or, or I even had one friend who in particular who worked for, um, Univision, which is the predominant Latin American, um, news outlet, and, um, he kind of was a huge, huge, huge help because he kindof was the one that was like, "Okay, this is what you need to do. Give me all your paperwork work and I'll check over it," and things like that. And so, yeah, thanks to him, I felt a little bit on the easier side, but it's a catch 22 when you fill this stuff out. And that's what a lot of people are worrying about as well is because you are submitting all of this directly, all of your information, and it has to be true. A hundred percent of it has To be true,

0:36:24 Christian: You're submitting all of it directly to Homeland Security to the people that are actively looking for you.

0:36:12 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah gosh and then. And, well, I don't want to fast forward yet, but, so, yeah, yeah.

0:36:34 Christian: I I mean, I think it's something we should talk about. Are fearing is that, um, when this is over, Immigrations and Customs and Homeland Security knows exactly where you are, they know exactly where to find you.

0:36:46 Thomas: Yeah, it's unbelievable. I don't we finish with the positive part of the story? So, you were able to go through this extreme vetting, which is what it is. I mean, this is really, I mean it's absurd to talk about anything other than this being extreme vetting. Like you had to prove all this stuff beyond a shadow of a doubt but you were eventually accepted, right?

0:37:07 Christian: Yes, uh, I received my little work permit, and, uh, with that I was able to run over to the Social Security office and and get myself a Social Security number. And mind you, um, on if it says very clearly on my little Social Security card that this Social Security number is not valid without my work permit. So it's not like I can just, you know, walk into any place and just present my social security member and start reaping benefits of any kind. It's, it's only valid with, with the work permit that I was issued.

0:37:30 Thomas: Okay. Right.

0:37:45 Christian: So it's, it's a little bit like a, you're marked for life, and it's all, it always, always for me, it's always a bit of, a I don't know how to say it's a bit of an embarrassment because anytime I apply for a job and I have to present these documents, because legally I have to, um, a lot of the times my employers don't even know what to do with them, they've never seen the work permit, or they've never, you know, they don't really know how to go about all of this, and I mean, I have even less answers for them. I just tell them that I have have to present it for them. I guess I've developed a way of of divulging just enough information, but it's still, like, you know, it's the mark of shame. You don't want to, you don't want to flat out say this is my whole story, you know, because then you feel judged.

0:38:29 Thomas: But did it work out, though? Was anybody turned off by it, or were you able to to get the jobs you were looking for?

0:38:35 Christian: I've, I've always been able to get the jobs that, that I was, um, looking for. I mean, most of the time they would, they'd either just like smile and nod and say thank you. Or they would just be like, "What's this?" Um, but it never, it never turned anybody off as as far as like, oh, this is, this is weird, yeah.

0:38:52 Thomas: That's good, so DACA allowed you to work much better jobs, make more money, pay more taxes, as we talked about, and I take it you reapplied, so you had to pay that fee at what, one or two more times, I'm guessing, right?

0:38:57 Christian: Yep uh, every, every, it only lasts for two years, and so every, uh, it, and you really have to apply, reapply about a hundred days before it actually expires, so basically you're paying the fee a little under every two years, um, and yeah, that's five hundred dollars that you have to, that it's not an option, you have have to set that aside.

0:39:21 Thomas: Right, while you're losing your job, I guess, right?

0:39:30 Christian: Yeah, or else you're done wherever you're at.

0:39:34 Thomas: I suppose that that probably concludes the high point of the story, because we all know what happened, you nine months ago. What was that like for you seeing, I suppose, the rise of Trump? Because, you, dear god, did he say some horrible stuff? I mean, what was 2015 and 2016 like for you? Were

0:39:54 Christian: Ask you to imagine this scenario is, how can you imagine living somewhere where you don't actually have have the right to make any decision, because I can't vote, that everything is always, you're always one of the most pressing conversations in any, in any political table, and yet you do not get a say in that at all.

0:40:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:15 Thomas: That ruins my next question. I was going to ask how you and three million of your friends illegally voted for Hillary in California, but okay, I'll scratch that one off. So that one didn't happen.

0:40:26 Christian: Wish, I wish I could say it did, but uh I

0:40:28 Thomas: Yeah yeah no so how was that for you? Because, gosh, I mean, Trump, I, we never, so many of us never thought he would ever get elected, never thought he would win the primary, never, you know, the whole time spewing just racist, xenophobic crap. I mean, how has that been for you?

0:40:46 Christian: I agree, I imagine that I'm in the same boat as you. I mean, I never, in the primaries I never thought that would even be a thing that that we would be contending with. I mean, to be perfectly honest, I was like, well, let's get ready for the reign of Ted Cruz. And, and, you know, at the time we thought he was anti-immigrant, like We thought he was extreme. And now, God, I remember I was, uh, actually down, uh, at my sister, she lives about four hours away.

I was down with her on the night of election night and you we were glued to our phones and to our TVs just following uh all of the news and I remember you know early poll numbers were kind of leaning blue and we got so excited and about I don't know it must have been like around 10:30, 11 everything just went red and I was in in such shock. I work in, in theater and I remember I was in the middle of teching a show and I had an audition in LA the following morning and then I had to come back, drive another two hours to tech a show.

And I wasn't in shock and I didn't sleep at all that night. I drove down to LA. I auditioned. I came back into town. I went into tech and at, and the, the theater that I was working at was doing uh two shows in rep and I uh went into the lobby during a break to get a cup

0:41:02 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:24 Thomas: It

0:42:14 Christian: Of coffee and the other show that was teching um one of the girls came out and she gave me a hug from behind and at that moment I turned around and I just broke down in absolute. Absolute tears. I mean, I, I not a crier and I, I mean I cried and she, she kind of had this moment of shock and then she just held me and she she cried with me too. It was, I

0:42:40 Thomas: Was awful. That was a really awful day. Were you thinking when this happened? I mean, it's awful in general for a million reasons, but were you already anticipating like, okay, what's this going to mean for me and my family? What kinds of things were running through your head?

0:42:57 Christian: Of the first calls we got the next day was my dad and he had already, I mean this is not something that you should be speaking about with your parents, but he had a contingency plan about what should happen should they get deported, where would my little sister, the littlest one, who is only in the fifth grade, where would she go, she's a U.S. citizen, you know, what, what are the things that we need to prepare for.

0:43:14 Thomas: Gosh.

0:43:23 Christian: Mean,

0:43:22 Thomas: Just can't imagine. Also, as we were kind of saying earlier, so you've, I mean, as you said, they know where you are, like they know all of this. I mean was, was there any regret over that? Like, gosh, I should, I have even gotten my hopes up with this DACA thing. Was it worth it?

0:43:39 Christian: I think so, I, I think so, there was a part of me that was like, you know, this was obviously always too good to be true and was always only a temporary fix, but that, I guess that's where we put our hopes in, in the idea that it was a temporary fixed. And if someone like Hillary Clinton was elected into office, she would actually address it in a level headed manner. But then when Donald Trump was elected, you just kind of took everything day by day. And I remember waking up like every day and just being like, well, hopefully today's not the day.

0:44:15 Thomas: Yeah.

0:44:16 Christian: And unfortunately, yesterday was the last grain of sand in that hourglass, you know?

0:44:23 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, man. I mean, do you, California has been okay on this, right? I mean I don't know, but it seems like, you know, you're not in Arizona. Arizona's been a little more hardcore on undocumented immigrants recently. Is that right? My impression of it? Okay.

0:44:42 Christian: Oh yeah. I mean, it comes down to the police and the local municipalities choose to deal with undocumented immigrants. There are certain states that give police the authority to work alongside ICE and help track down undocumented immigrants. And then there's states like California who have differentiated and said, ICE is a federal agency and state government does not have to comply because because the way California defined it is local authorities are there to enforce local laws, not do the will of the federal government. Does that make sense? So, exactly.

0:44:50 Thomas: Yeah.

0:45:26 Thomas: Yeah, it doesn't. Always work out that way in every state, right? Yeah. Arpaio, yeah, talked about that, yeah.

0:45:32 Christian: I mean, Arpaio, he was hardcore, actively seeking to deport as many people as he possibly could. And, you know, you still, even here in California, you still live in fear that, like, somebody that knows, you know, your undocumented could potentially report you.

0:45:55 Thomas: If they report you? I mean, is that, you're just gone, like, no matter what's going on in your life, what you're doing? I mean,

0:46:02 Christian: I mean, there's, you have a few rights. You have, for example, you can't get arrested without a warrant, things like that. They can't enter your home, ICE can't answer your home and things like without a legal warrant and they need permission from a judge to conduct a search and things like that, but with that being said, you know, when you're an undocumented immigrant, how many, how much law do you actually know? You either way, a lot of the times, you know, they show up to somebody's home and the person opens the door, they have no idea. They just read the words ICE and it's like, what are you going to do?

0:46:02 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:46:41 Christian: Are you going to run away?

0:46:42 Thomas: Yeah. What is your impression of the Obama administration? Because I, it gets tossed around a lot that, oh, actually Obama deported so many people. And my, my impression of it is that he, I think in an effort to try as we're always doing, you know, Democrats are always doing trying to appease Republicans a little bit, tried to deport anyone who was charged with a crime. But at the same time, I mean, he created DACA and he did all these other things. What is your impression of Obama

0:47:13 Christian: Sure. It's statistically true that Obama deported more people than any other president in history, correct?

0:47:23 Thomas: Don't have that number in front of me, but I know he did a lot. I can check it later.

0:47:27 Christian: My understanding, it was a lot of people that were already either in custody or were in deportation proceedings, things like that. My question is, what were their crimes, because a lot of the times, something as simple as, working without a valid social security number is enough to get you So that's all I question. I don't really know because I guess it didn't affect me as much. My parents always made sure that like me and my sisters had a clean bill and we kept, for the most part, to our own.

I've always been a bit of a radical and my parents consistently like roll their eyes at everything that I want to do, but I'm like the kind of person that is like, I need to go march or I needと like do this, and then when they found out I was doing theater and they're like, well, at least he's just singing and dancing on stage, and then I ended up doing like activist theater where like, and so they're like, crap, like, yeah. I always attempted to just kind of be in the best social standing and that that I, that I could, you know?

0:48:39 Thomas: Yeah yeah okay it's just interesting. I'm just trying to maybe I'm trying to get an overall impression of, Obama's legacy on this matter.

0:48:46 Christian: Mean, I, I was a big fan of, uh, President Obama, from the beginning, even, even when he was, um, just running for, for, um, office and he was just Senator Obama. And even though his stance on immigration has always been a little more um conservative than uh even someone like Hillary Clinton, um, unfortunately I think that that's also one of the things that kind of, do I say it like, it, it backfired for Hillary, is that is such a divisive issue that siding with one side or another, you, you don't go halfway, you either go all the way or none at all, does that make sense?

And with Hillary, she really wanted that um Latino vote and um, by by going after that, I think she lost a lot of the conservative base because of that, and also people tend to, they um, they tend to put the face of immigrants as the border crossing, I mean, as you, my case is that that is the case, but they tend to think that like the only kind of undocumented immigrants are these border crossing, tattoo wielding, you know, thugs from Mexico, and a lot of people forget that there are plenty of undocumented undocumented immigrants from all over the country, or from all over the world, excuse me, and they all just are coming here for a better life.

0:49:31 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

0:50:20 Thomas: Like people overstaying visas and stuff, or just for lots of different reasons.

0:50:23 Christian: Exactly. I mean, people that literally fly into this country, and then they realize that they can't, you know, this is the place, this is their home.

0:50:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. So I know you're running out of time, I, I just want to, are there any final thoughts you'd like to leave us with, um, things you'd like people to know about undocumented people or, or anything that you, that you think it would be good, good information to get out there for people.

0:50:48 Christian: Think that people don't realize undocumented people are. They have this ethereal concept of like, not a tangible, like, this is an undocumented immigrant. But what I want to get people to understand is that those people are already there with you. They're amongst your community. Whether the dreamers are, they could be your doctor. They could be your child's teacher. They could be the soccer mom that brings treats, you know, on Saturdays. They could, and they could also be the cashier at Save Mart. They could be, you know, they all they ever wanted and all they ever want is an equal opportunity at happiness.

0:51:33 Christian: And the idea that they're taking something from somebody else is ridiculous. I

0:51:37 Thomas: I know you got to run. Um, I think that's a good note to go out on. Uh, I, I. You know, I wish you luck. Uh, uh, I can't believe, I mean I think this is probably of, of a long list of horrible things Trump has done. I think this might be this might just top it as the most unnecessary, cruelest, evil thing that he could do currently.

0:52:00 Christian: Don't jinx it.

0:52:03 Thomas: Sorry. Right now. Yeah. Like, you know, that did not mean, you know, that didn't I mean forever. That just means currently. Yeah, you just never know. And thank you for coming on, sharing your story and giving, putting a voice, I suppose, to what's going on.

0:52:03 Christian: Thank You, thank you, uh, I hope my voice hasn't been too annoying. Thank

0:52:25 Thomas: No, it's, it's really helpful. Thanks.

0:52:28 Christian: You.

0:52:40 Thomas: So much, digest there, thanks again to Christian, of course, for coming on, but one of worst aspects of this and the trans-military ban is just the betrayal of trust of very marginalized people in our society. The idea that... One minute you're filling out forms revealing all the information you possibly could about yourself in order to go part of the way toward being an equal member of our society, and then the next minute that could be used against you to deport you or your family or... I just can't imagine that feeling. Christian said to me after we stopped, like, yeah, I kind of, you know, I laugh because what else can you do?

0:53:26 Thomas: Too, and yeah, I heard that a lot in Christian's voice, sort of. And it's something that I did as well. You know, you can't help but laugh sometimes at how just bonkers this is. I mean, it really is. There's no reason for it. It's awful. But at the same time, I mean... I'm not laughing about it. You know? Like, I am and I am not. I think my listeners get that. Like, it's not... This isn't funny, you know, it's, it's not funny, it's, it's evil. Like, it really is, just ending this program for no reason, it's just evil. There's no, there's no reason for it. And it makes the government money. It makes the government money, it is a hundred percent people who are employed, who have no, as you, as you heard Christian talk about, no criminal history of any kind.

0:54:17 Thomas: There's, it's, it IS the best of the best. I mean, when you, when you, even, even going from a conservative point of view, even going from Trump's point of view, oh, they're, they're sending us their worst people, this is only good people. Like, this is only, even if you take a hardline conservative, conservative point of view, I can't imagine not wanting this program, other than if you're just so afraid of immigrants, I suppose, um, but this is a boon to the economy. I mean, it's, if you pay more taxes, you pay, if you end DACA, these people aren't going away, they just are going back, you know, hidden away where they aren't paying as much in taxes, and they aren't paying the renewal fee, and the, you know, and, and I support, if someone has committed a murder, and they're not a documented citizen of this country, then sure, by all means, we can deport murderers, we could deport serious criminals, I think that's a reasonable policy, but- And that's my understanding of what Obama wanted to do.

0:55:17 Thomas: I went and fact-checked, because Christian was right, actually, Obama did deport, well, technically, under his administration, more people were deported than ever, but it looks like the fact check on that is that a lot of that is due to a change in definition, so back when Christian came over the border, he wouldn't have been caught, you know when he said that initial time where they got caught and turned back? That wouldn't have been counted as a deportation back in the day, but now it is counted as deportation, and that ups the numbers artificially. So that's a big reason, and people think that if that were still counted the way it used to be, Obama would have still been a high deporter but not record-breaking.

0:56:02 Thomas: So that is an interesting fact check there. A lot of it has to do with the redefinition of terms. But a lot of it also has to do with, uh, just congressional budgetary, not, you know, giving more money to ICE and giving more money to border security and all that stuff. It's just, a the resources went up, it's not really something Obama can control. And likewise, to be frank, a lot of the increase is not something Trump controlled. I mean, some of it is, but a lot of it's not out of, not in the control of the president, uh, at least some portion. It's in control of the budget and how much support they get that way. At any rate, these are tough times, thoughts go out to everybody affected by Harvey, and now it looks like Irma could be catastrophic to a degree that looks scary, I guess it's still not, we're still not for sure on the projection path and all that, but thoughts out, and heart goes out to everyone suffering from that, I mean, there's just so much going on.

0:56:59 Thomas: And in the midst of this, I just saw a headline that John McCain might be changing his mind on healthcare, which could put healthcare back at risk. I mean, this is, again, sometimes all you can do is laugh, but it's not funny. I mean this is dire. This is a horrible situation. There's so much going on, and not all of it is because of Trump. I mean hurricanes aren't because of Donald Trump, but our preparedness, our recognition of climate change as a contributor for future events. I mean there's a lot going on that this White House cannot manage at all and is actively making worse most of the time. And it's It's not a happy time, but we'll soldier on and get out the, uh, we'll do our best to get out awareness for these congressional issues like DACA, which they, really, Congress needs to find a solution to, uh.

0:57:50 Thomas: By the way, that was the entire reasoning behind why Republicans opposed DACA when Obama introduced it was, well, this should be a congressional thing. Sure. Well, you have the power now, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. You have the power to do it. You have control. Democrats will support the hell out of that if you come up with a solution. So do it, because the president is being absolutely heartless. And you can fix it, Paul Ryan, you can do it. You can actually, you can do something in this case. How cool is that? So I'm sure we can expect a solution coming out of Congress any second now. But all joking aside, I actually do hope we can expect a solution coming out of Congress. I think that there are enough Republicans who think this is a bad idea to end DACA that it's possible we will get something from them, and that's what we need to lobby for.

0:58:39 Thomas: We also have to call our representatives about health care now. That might be back on the table. We need to stay more active than ever, guys. That really is the name of the game for the next X number of years, staying active, staying on our representatives, getting out there and voting when that comes up. So keep up the good work. I know so many people out there are doing great work on this, so keep it up. And this is people like Christian, by the way, That's putting a real human behind why Why fighting this is so important, so thanks again to Christian. Thank you for listening. I'll see you guys next week.