SIO54: Ishmael of Angry Black Rant on Appropriation, Bill Maher and More

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 54 and I'm your host Thomas Smith. Alright, today I've got a much-requested guest for you, Ishmael Brown from the Angry Black Rant podcast to talk about appropriation. We talked about the Bill Maher situation. We talked a lot about issues of race in this country. Really fascinating conversation. Can't wait to give it to you. I would say, I do want to give a heads up that my There's an explicit tag on this episode for a reason, there's I guess more profanity than normal, which normally I try to actually not have much on this show, but didn't go that way this time, just giving you a heads up, just in case anyone is offended or wants to avoid that kind of thing, but that said, I don't think you should because it's a great interview, really fascinating, and And here we go, let's get to it.

0:01:26 Thomas: Joining me right now is Ishmael Brown of Angry Black Rant. Back for, who knows, third, fourth, fifth time for all I know. Always love talking to you. How are you doing, Ishmael?

0:01:36 Ishmael: I'm doing good. How you doing Thomas?

0:01:38 Thomas: Doing great. Now, this is the problem with you and I is that we get on and we start talking. We're talking about all kinds of interesting stuff and I'm like, should I be recording this? Or is this just you and I talking? And we were talking about before I stopped us and hit record, the fact that, and this can just be a brief topic, but boy, when I posted on Facebook just how much money Jordan B. Peterson is making on Patreon, and we started to talk about the fact that you mentioned like how easy it would be to just sell out in this case. And I thought it was pretty funny, but you were like mid-thought and I stopped you and said, let's record. So what were you saying?

0:01:46 Ishmael: I have no idea what that thought was, but I'll just jump on the idea of sellout, because that's one thing that's prominent in the black community when they talk about being a sellout, meaning like, um, going to the white side and ignoring black plight. And yeah, I mean, me as a black man, I and I talk about campus problems and I talk about black lives matters I'll be rich

0:02:40 Thomas: Oh, man. Moneymaker. Oh, oh. You know what, Ishmael? The real racists are the white people who are, or no, are the, whatever. Yeah, no, what would it be? No, what's the, what's the black people who are, yeah.

0:02:52 Ishmael: The black people who who talk about racism they're

0:02:58 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, sorry. I mixed it up. The real racism. Yeah, exactly.

0:02:58 Ishmael: Racist you don't even have it in you to say it you you're just you're you're your neurons just immediately flip to the right side yes

0:03:04 Thomas: I messed it up already. All right, all right, all right. When I sell out, don't worry, I will get my talking points correct. But you, you had said that like, for me, it's not really, you know, I mean, I could sell out, but believe it or not, you know, I believe me, I could sell out, but it wouldn't be as effective as you, because I'm just a basic, you know, I'm cisgender white dude, like every, there's a, there's a bunch of sellout me's, but you are positioned to make a a ton of money, my friend.

0:03:20 Ishmael: Yeah and and and that was a exactly in and that wasn't just a jumping off because I wanted to say to you, because I started off saying, look, I know, even though if you sell out like Jordan Peterson or any of those guys, but you're a cisgendered white male, I said, but I do understand that feeling because I'm a cis gendered black male. And it took me a while to understand my privilege regarding to black women in the black gay community. And then I, I mean, it had to be in the last two, three years. And Then I caught myself and said, wait, I'm privileged too.

0:04:06 Thomas: Hmm.

0:04:06 Ishmael: I'm not gay. I's not a black trans person. I' not a Black gay person. I'm a Black woman. And that takes a lot for someone who's like, wants to talk about police brutality, wants talk about racism to also say I'm kind of privileged out this motherfucker because you, you know what I mean? So it's, it's a tough road to go. So So

0:04:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a hard thing. And I, and I get it. Um, I certainly get it. It's especially being, you know, the king of privilege over here with the only thing I can claim is that I grew up pretty poor, but other than that, I mean, just, just, just an embarrassment of privilege.

0:04:38 Ishmael: With a crazy dad. And if you guys don't know comedy shoeshine, check it out.

0:04:44 Thomas: Yeah, true. Yeah, true. But other Other than that, just an absolute display of privilege. It is really hard. Like, it feels like an attack, you know, like, and I get it because it's been, you know, four, five, six years ago when I first started, I don't know, talking to people about this, learning about it. It feels like an attack. Like, wait a minute. Don't I just get to be me and not, you know, worry that society has been a certain way and that history has been a certain way? Like, I didn't, you know, I didn't have any slaves. I didn't do anything. You know, like, that's the common knee-jerk reaction. And from my perspective, and let me know what you think about this, like, I think it's important. First off, number one thing to say is, and I think, I think I'm sure I can get an amen from you on this is there's idiots on all sides of everything. Like you can, if

0:04:53 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, of course. Of course. Man,

0:05:31 Thomas: You want, yeah, yeah.

0:05:32 Ishmael: I battle it. I'm in a black atheist group. I bang out with them every frigging day. There are idiots everywhere. Like, come on. Like, no, no.

0:05:39 Thomas: And there are going to be idiots on the, on the, on the social justice side that you can focus on all day and say, look at this moron. They're going to say stupid things. And by the way, we can do it the same way over on the far right too. That's easy. Like we can, we can find plenty of straw men and, and

0:05:40 Ishmael: No. Yeah. Yeah, of curse. Yeah. And you want to know what happens? I don't mean to cut you off because I just want to accent that point, because I found and I don't mean to be, I don't even know what you would call me. Maybe the right would call me elitist. There are stupid people on all sides who are very simple. So they say, oh, that's this and that's that and that's sexism and that's racism. And you realize, oh you're not nuanced at all. You're just a dummy, aren't you? Like, you're not really looking at the meat of the problem. You're just saying, oh, I can just call that sexism. I can Just call that racism.

0:05:54 Thomas: Sure. No, go ahead.

0:06:12 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:06:25 Ishmael: Like, yeah. So, yeah, it's on all sides.

0:06:26 Thomas: And, and, and it comes from like a gotcha of being able to be holier than thou, you know, calling each other out, that kind of thing. And, and that's annoying. And often a lot of it is stupid and a lot of it is whatever, you know, like, so acknowledging you have privilege doesn't mean that everybody, whoever was on the social justice side is right about everything. I just want to like, maybe that'll help if there's anyone in the middle to kind of reach out on this. But I realized like identifying privilege is more just as putting things in perspective. You know, it's just like, it doesn't mean like, okay, everything Ishmael says is worth five points and everything I say is, it's like, not really. I mean, you can find plenty of people of all walks of life who are right or wrong about plenty of issues. It's about recognizing kind of the experience that you may not necessarily have.

0:06:31 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

0:07:14 Ishmael: Yeah, exactly. Because at the end, doesn't everyone have someone that can. So, look, you are white, cis male. Even if you are gay, I Can Say, well, I'm a black male. Cops want to shoot me. And a black woman can say, well, I'm a black woman, and black men not only cops not only want to shoot me, black men beat me. And then a trans woman or a gay woman can says, well I'm gay woman, so who the fuck are you to say you're this? And then the trans woman, you know, and then it's just like, I don't think that's what happens, and I think another side of the coin is when people say, oh, this is the oppression Olympics.

No, it's just acknowledging certain certain privileges we all have you know what I mean like On some level, and I hate that term, oppression Olympics, because it's like someone who may be oppressed will say, "Oh, you're saying you're more oppressed, look, this is oppression, no, they are more oppressed," like me as a black man, I understand the play that a black woman, I have to, because if I don't, why the fuck would white people understand my play, you know? So, but then stupid people just say oppression Olympic, so, So, oh, you're more oppressive. It's like, listen, it's called empathy. That's really what it's about.

0:07:35 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:08:25 Thomas: Did you catch my stuff on Evergreen? Uh, and, and the stuff like, like the fact of, uh, the, oh, nice. So I, I would be curious to hear what you, because my take on that.

0:08:32 Ishmael: Yeah, I caught both episodes. I should have said no, fuck. Should have been like, nah, I don't know, what? You got a podcast? Wait, who am I talking to again?

0:08:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. You can big, you can big time me. You can big time me. That's okay. This is the Ishmael Brown.

0:08:45 Ishmael: Is this Sam Harris? Sam Harris, yeah, I call you Evergreen.

0:08:47 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I'm cause that, that was kind of what the, the thing that I can't get people to give me your thoughts on this because I didn't even realize, and this is my failing, and I think I would proceed differently. But honestly, I didn't realize that there would be people who'd be so fucking triggered by words and by those people. I don't mean SJWs. I mean people on the on the other side who were so triggered by the word whitesplaining that they shut down to the rest of the entire conversation. Like, and, and that's my fault. I didn't realize that I, like, yeah, apparently you can't say it.

0:09:16 Ishmael: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, you can't say none of that. Those are the real snowflakes. They are quick to call people snowflakes, oh my God. You cannot use any of those words. And I can't lie. I'm not a huge fan of mashing two words together just as a literary person who writes like, but yeah.

0:09:29 Thomas: Yeah. Nope. Nope. Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But I thought it was appropriate in this case. So like, I want to clarify because a lot of people don't get it. Mansplain, and this is, this is my view. Maybe, I don't know, maybe you'll disagree, Ishmael, maybe other people disagree. It doesn't mean you're X, so you're wrong. It doesn't mean you're a man, so you're wrong. You're white, so you're wrong. It's not what it means. It's sort of a description of the manner in which someone is talking, I think. Like you could be, you could be whitesplaining and probably be right.

I mean, most of the time it comes from a little bit of ignorance, but give me your view on that email because what I couldn't explain to people, white people, I think, was that like, yeah, technically a lot of the words he's saying are true, but it was the manner in which Bret Weinstein decided to just impose himself on the conversation, bypassing, you know, weeks or months of planning on this committee where they decided, look, it's been a really rough year, you know, racially, like tension wise on the campus. There've been, you know, the Trump election, there's been these white power posters.

0:09:46 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah

0:10:45 Thomas: How about we just switch this event? It'll be a nice thing to do. And then to have somebody just come in and email the entire staff and faculty and the the list and just say, no, you're, you're the real racist. It's like, that's what I mean by it's, it's a description of kind of the lack of perspective that he's putting into it. I think.

0:11:04 Ishmael: You, you explained it perfectly. And I had to tell people cause I've been accused of mansplaining. And I have probably mansplained in a while, but you're too dumb to understand what that phrase means. Because like I said, stupid people find a word and just run with it because, but, but you used it correctly because mansplaining means a white splaining means you were seeing it solely through your POV. That's the problem. It's not that you're a white male and you have an opinion on a subject.

0:11:19 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. True. Right.

0:11:35 Ishmael: It's that you are not seeing it through anybody's eyes, but sure, you're the victim. Them? How dare they not want to hear my point of view or people who look and I relate to a point of view. And that's the issue. And I think people read it wrong when they read it from you because you used it correctly. You're like, this guy comes upon this problem that's a campus wide problem from this very liberal college. And, and I mean, the way Fox News presented it and the way he was looking at it was just an assault on him, he had no, he did not see it through anybody's viewpoint but his, that is mansplaining, like that's what the problem is it isn't just a man giving his view on a topic and

0:11:54 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Exactly. And, and so many people to, to whitesplain over you right now, so many, so many people ask me, some people on Twitter live like a gotcha moment. Oh, how is, how you explained their motivations? How is that not whitesplaining? And I was like, I didn't, like, honestly, I'm, I've lost a lot of patience with Twitter. I used to, boy, I really used to try with Twitter-ish, man. I used to, every, every asshole who disagreed with me, oh, let's talk this out. I'm really starting to lose it, man. Because it's like, you just can't, they never end. And it's all the same guy, pretty much.

Like, it's just one guy who just, and, but anyway, what I was going to say, and I intended intended to do it in an episode, but I guess it'll be this episode because I didn't want to do another one on it. We're just talking about X-splaining in general and, what the difference is, is like if I'm doing my best to read and research what they have said, what people of color in these communities and the and the committee on campus has said is their intention, me reading that on the air is not white-splaining, you know, like somebody, that's just a white guy explaining something, so it's

0:12:19 Ishmael: Yeah yeah yeah exactly oh

0:13:22 Thomas: Like, yeah, yeah, like, can I read from the dictionary, is that okay, yeah, like, but Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you and I both are guilty of mansplaining at times, and it's something that, especially when you have a show, I think you'd relate to this, I often feel, because and this might be something you could, you could comment on too. Like, I don't feel like I can get a representative of every single thing to come on my show at every time that I'm going to bring something up, you know, it's like, okay, I want to reference something. It would be great to have, I someone from the Native American community on my show to just say, but like, practically speaking, it's very difficult to have a perfect representative of whatever I'm talking about at any given time. So at times I do have to explain and give my view and spin on things and do my best to interpret. Is

0:13:22 Ishmael: A white guy can't give his views on on something a man can't give his views on. Exactly. Yeah.

0:14:11 Thomas: That something, and comment on the fact that I'm doing that probably right now with you because I wanted to get your thoughts on appropriation. I wanted to get your thoughts on the Bill Maher thing. Am I just finding a token black friend to come talk to me about this stuff? Is that good or is that bad? I mean, is that worse than, yeah, right.

0:14:28 Ishmael: It's a double edged sword sometime because it's like, oh, you brought the black guy like Sam Harris brought on. I think I forget the guy's name, but I just always remember how he described him. He called him a Reagan Democrat and he brought the Black guy on to talk about police brutality. One thing about about Sam Harris, I feel that's going on with him is he brings people on that agrees with him, which I find pretty problematic, but getting back to what you're saying, no, you bringing me on to talk about it. You are doing your best to say, I don't want to talk about this issue without at least having a representative from that community. It's like, if I wanted to talk about the aborigines, native Americans, whatever, and their treatment within America, yeah, I can can talk about it, but it would be better if I got someone from their community to

0:14:42 Thomas: Oh yeah. What was that? Yeah. Yeah, evergreen,

0:15:17 Ishmael: Talk about it. But you can't always do that. And I think when it comes to explaining whatever it is, man or white or whatever, as long as you acknowledge the other side, I think that's what counts. If you just come on and say your side and say it's a fact, I can see someone using using that phrase, maybe that's just like, well, I find that too. And they say, well that's mansplaining. You were talking about women issues. You didn't even give a side of a woman that disagrees with you. Even if she wasn't there, you could at least acknowledge there was like you actively represented them. So I guess you can use it then, you know, like that's mansplained and try to just say, well, this is how I feel.

0:16:11 Ishmael: And I'll make this whole podcast about how I feel and pretend there is no other side. Or I take a kind of a hyperbolic, uh, view of that side and pretend, and I knock all down the straw man and it's not represented. Yeah. Then someone can say, whoa, he's white spleen or he's mansplaining, but the way you approach some for, for them to take the, uh what, what is it? Everest? Is that the name of the school?

At Evergreen, I mean, you did your best to be like, look, the students were wrong, the way, like, you did your best, like, say I'm in no way saying, and and you made a point to say just because I may agree with one part doesn't mean the other part's not guilty, and they did something. And and then you, you even gave more to the protesters. The student protesters said, yes, maybe they should. So you go out your way to do your best to say, like, listen, I'm not giving them a pass. They were wrong. I'm just trying to focus on the story. And the story was told dishonestly. But even with that, these students were wrong, and I think the only right person was the

0:16:38 Thomas: No,

0:17:24 Ishmael: Principal so I think you covered it as best as anyone could cover something like this so for people to be like, oh, you were white explaining because you're a white guy and you were explaining things, that's what I talk about with stupid people. It's like, have you even read the definition? Like, do you even know what you're talking about? Like people like that, you were such a friendly guy because, because you came on and gave, I'd have been like, yo, all you motherfuckers who wrote me about that stupid shit, shut the, don't write me anymore, stop listening. I would have just went off on them.

0:17:29 Thomas: Thanks, man, oh, man, it's, it's, oh, we could almost do the same routine where, you know, Obama had his, like, anger, what was it, oh, that was so good, was it Key or Peel or whatever, yeah, we should, one of them, Key or Peel, I can't remember which one, but, yeah, having his, like, anger translator, that was awesome, we could do the same thing with you, yeah, yeah,

0:18:00 Ishmael: Oh, oh yeah, the guy from Key and Peele, what's his name? Yeah. Yeah. I would've told, yeah, I woulda totally translated this shit like, motherfucker, don'l listen. Listen, because I did all I could to let you motherfuckers know that I gave all the caveats. What more can I do?

0:18:23 Thomas: Well, My other favorite thing that happens, and sorry, this is just, now it's turning into me bitching about the people that you know complain at me, my thing that's really difficult in in this kind of stuff is is, and and we can just talk about this using skepticism in general, is people hold the side they disagree with to impossible standards. So they'll hold one thing that I thought was just amazing was whenever I I criticize Sam Harris for something, by the way, I'm still a Sam Harris fan. I still listen to every episode.

0:18:53 Thomas: Like I like Sam Harris. Uh, as I said in the last episode, I don't begrudge him his Patreon dollars. That's great. I think he's doing an interesting thing. I think he's bringing interesting conversations. He has his flaws. I'm, I criticize him all the time, but I at least feel like he's talking, he's doing, bringing interesting things to the conversation. But whenever I criticize him and I, when I, when I do with Jordan Peterson, when I was like, look, he had him on the show and Jordan Peterson just spouted nonsense about the law.

0:18:51 Ishmael: Yeah. I feel you. Yeah nonsense. Yes.

0:19:19 Thomas: And then the minute I make one mistake, one mistake, no matter what it is, like how small it is, that's used to hold me to an impossible standard to say, oh, look at this guy. He did this. Invalidate my entire opinion when you're not holding Sam Harris, you know, who has millions of followers and like has making all this buddy. It has this huge show. You don't hold him to any standard, but if I criticize him, you hold me to an impossible standard.

0:19:39 Ishmael: Yeah. No no. But even worse Jordan Peterson's whole popular existence is based on fallacious bullshit. Like there is nothing that warrants support from this guy if you look into it.

0:19:55 Thomas: Yeah. And just I'll attack it right now

0:20:02 Ishmael: Hey

0:20:02 Thomas: Because everybody, the people who are arguing with me, here's what they're saying. Oh, but he makes these psychology videos and stuff. Yeah. Here. I looked at the history of his Patreon. There's a cool site that lets you look at it. He's been making those fucking videos for the better part of like like a year, all of a sudden, when he starts being an excuse for people to be transphobic and for people to hate on any sort of pronouns that aren't he or she, then all of a sudden it takes off. And yeah, maybe he has some interesting academic work, but there are plenty of people who have interesting academic work who don't make half a million dollars on Patreon for it.

0:20:17 Ishmael: Yeah Yeah, and that bothered me when you had to present that to Michael Shermer, that that was like the last straw. When I'm like, so if Thomas didn't look that up, Michael Shermer was pushing that as fact, like, oh no, he, he's done this before. And you're like, yeah, but he made so much before and this much after. And he's like, oh okay, well, that, and, and it's like, wait, you're, you're not a creationist, you're, you're not some really, you were the guy that talked about, woo, you're the guy that have soundbites shitting on Deepak Chopra, and you are coming with bullshit that you're not supporting. And you're just almost, I almost felt like he says things that like, until you knock it down, it's going to be a fact, which is the opposite of a skeptic. And then when you knock him down, he's like, oh, okay. He just brushes it off.

0:21:25 Thomas: Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah. So at least he's got half of it, I guess. So he's got half of the equation, which is like, you know, being able to change his mind. So that's good. Cause a lot of people just never changed their mind on anything. He ends up tweeting the same stuff. He still hasn't gotten back to me as of this recording about the video. But anyway, let's get to, we don't have that much time.

Let's get to, uh, I So I had a listener call in and ask about your view on appropriation because my view, I don't know if you heard this episode, but I gave a, what I I intended to be just my casual thoughts, which I'm open to changing my mind on because this is really is something I'm not an expert on, but I did a little reading on it just to check it out. And it's cultural appropriation. What's your views?

Because someone just asked me, Katie called in and said, I've always just thought white people shouldn't have dreads because, you know, I think she said she came across someone who at one point said it was racist to have dreads if you're a white person.

0:22:26 Thomas: And so she said, OK. And I admire that. She doesn't want to offend anyone. I, I tend to think, and I'll give you my view and then I get your take on it. My view that I said was, I, I think a personal choice like that, that you're not like profiting off of and it's not, it's not, you're not making fun of somebody or anything. It's just a personal style choice. That seems to me like it's, it's appropriate, but I'm open to, uh, opposing views on that. So what do you think?

0:22:49 Ishmael: White people with dreads, I don't find as, like, this a cultural, uh, appropriation, or some people call it misappropriation. Um, more fine, because that's such a regular person. And, and I guess I can see an argument with that. But when I look at cultural appropriation, I think of rock and roll and Elvis Presley, I think of jazz music, I think, I think, um, Kaylee Kardashian who starts rocking cornrows and when I say cornrows that is something black women have been fired for black women that have been reprimanded in the military for having. And then when Kylie Kardashian wears it, I think it was last year or maybe the year before, I Think It Was Last Year, she's brave and it's such a great look.

So I think It's about white people benefiting from something that black people have been condemned and marginalized for a long time, like rock and roll, like all these things. And then when a white person appropriates it, it now was good. It now was, I think that's more of it than like a white person wearing dreads today. We're, we're, I don't know, maybe we're not. Um, but I think I, I don't get offended by a white person wearing dreads today, but I think of things present day where black people can be fired for, for their certain hairdo. And then when Kylie Kardashian wears it, It's now accepted, and then the job now accepts it.

0:23:19 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm. Right. Right. Hmm. Yeah.

0:24:25 Ishmael: That's cultural appropriation. I think it has to do with other circumstances around it. It's not just as simple as, oh, you're wearing this. And I also think people wearing costumes of Native Americans at parties is very wrong on many levels, including the corporal appropriation because, um, I mean we wiped out that whole fucking, we wiped out their whole civilization basically, they got very little people left, and now it's a costume. But I'm not so quick to just say, oh, a white person with dreads, yo, you better cut your dreads, because that's a cultural appropriation. I think there are other circumstances that come into point and I think a lot of it has to do with the fame and acceptance of the person that does it, and all of a sudden it's accepted.

After, like, black women have worn cornrows their whole lives, I mean my, my sister's whole life, my mother's whole, like, and have been like marginalized for it, has been looked at like that's inappropriate to come to work, which it shouldn't be, because it's like and And then all of a sudden, a white girl or an Armenian wears it. And oh, my God, it's bold. It's great. It's this. It's that. And now, oh, yeah, you can wear it anywhere. That does feel like a cultural appropriation. So like I was talking about other things, I don't think it's that simple. But I think when you see it and you see that, it hurts. Like, it Hurts Black Women. It

0:25:07 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

0:25:59 Ishmael: Hurts black women to see Kylie Jenner, this nobody woman from a nobody family who's just famous for being famous, being celebrated for wearing something. They have wore since slave days and been frigging reprimanded and been marginalized and been left out of society. And then this little girl wears it and now it's acceptable. Now it's allotted like she's the shit because that's cultural appropriation. I think it's not in a vacuum. We have to look at it within society. I don't think just, oh, someone wore cornrows that, you know, you go to

0:26:06 Thomas: Hmm. For no reason yeah exactly yeah yeah right no yeah

0:26:36 Ishmael: Some other country and there's cornrows and you just, you, you. You know what I mean? It's not.

0:26:41 Thomas: Yeah yeah let me Ask you this, because I was thinking about it, uh, and it, it seems to me, again, I hope this doesn't strike as like idealism trying to, trying to, you know, distract from the problem, but it seems like the proper fix for this kind of thing is the first part. It seems like the problem isn't Kylie, whatever, Jen, or whoever, it's why were people reprimanding black women for wearing dreads to begin with? And I get once that problem is already in place, I'm, you know, I'm not under the impression that we can just, yeah, I'm not under the impression that we could just erase all that and that'll be fine. But In, I suppose, like going forward, the problem, I don't, I think maybe the anger, if it's directed at one individual, is a little misplaced because it doesn't fix anything. Thing what fixes stuff is what caused the problem to begin with is the racism that led to, you know, black women being mistreated for their hairstyle, that's the problem and like that's what needs to be fixed

0:26:42 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:27:11 Ishmael: Racism. That's why racism. Yeah.

0:27:40 Ishmael: Well, no. At the same time, the problem is also when white people do it, it's okay. Okay, so the problem is the lack of acknowledgement. Motherfucker, if I come up with, if I start to do something and it's from a culture that has been marginalized and mistreated for what they do, I'm going out my way to acknowledge them, to say, this is where I got it from. I didn't just come out with this. My hairdresser didn't just come out with this. My, you, you know what I mean? You have to,

0:27:42 Thomas: Sure yeah yeah yeah I

0:28:14 Ishmael: You have to ignore it. It's like you, it's, it's almost like me finding something from the Jewish Holocaust that something they did in the internment camps. I don't know, whatever, let's make something up. And I just bring it and I get it from them. And then I just brings it and I get lauded and I don't even acknowledge this inspired me. This is why these people who suffered so much because they did this, that's what exactly

0:28:15 Thomas: Think because there's another yeah yeah yeah what if she had done it with an attitude and I think this will make her into way smarter and thoughtful of a person than she is. But if she had done it with an attitude like, hey, let's normalize this because black women are mistreated for this. Like if she had called it out, you think it would have been a different response.

0:28:51 Ishmael: Exactly yeah and the fact that she's praised for it I mean it's not like she just did it and no one noticed they had stories written about like oh her bold you know as if she invented cornrows like it was such disrespect there are Women in the army who get kicked out of the army for having cornrows, black women, in this fucking, no, nothing, Kardashian. I mean, if there's anyone who doesn't deserve anything, it's the Kardak as far as media attention, Kardashian's and she's being praised for cornrows that black women have been like marginalized for their whole lives, so, so I think it's not just, oh, you did something, black people did misappropriation.

0:28:59 Thomas: Right, right, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right.

0:29:40 Thomas: But I think so what about another hypothetical? Because I think people maybe think of like a dreadlock guy who's like like channeling, Bob you Marley or something like, is that, do people, is it appropriate to, to, to say that's cultural appropriation? You shouldn't be like that. What are, what are your thoughts on that?

0:29:57 Ishmael: And Think I'm too young for dreadlocks, because I think I, I don't get offended by white people with dreadlocks. I think it's, it has been mainstream for a long time. Like I don't think, because dread, because if anything, the fact that dreadlocks came to America, um, was enough to say, because, well, it depends, because other cultures had dreadlocks too, but dreadlocks is also a part of the Rastafarian religion. So it's kind of a weird combination, but I don't find white people with dreadlocks cultural appropriation because it's, it's been mainstream for a couple of decades now. So no, I don't find white People with dreadlocks, uh, cultural appropriating.

0:30:05 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Hmm. All right. And then when, did you hear about the, so what, what brought this up was that burrito truck incident thing. Did you hear about that? That yeah

0:30:41 Ishmael: Um, yeah, yeah I did, but you actually filled me into a lot more that they went and did some ninja shit and was like, Like, oh, can I have that recipe? Because at first I was like, man, white people, okay, white people got a burrito truck, whatever. Like, who gives a fuck? But when you filled it in with, like, they went and kind of stole the recipe from people, yeah, yeah.

0:31:09 Thomas: Well and they brag they bragged about it in an interview like that it was like I said on that I mean that's that's just bad a bad pr move mostly

0:31:16 Ishmael: Yeah, it's not just a cultural appropriation. I mean, if they stole it from McDonald's or they stole it from anyone, you'd be like, whoa, that's kind of shady. 80 so I I think they lost it more just because the way they did it more than like because Let's be honest, cultural appropriation isn't getting you to lose any kind of job, you can literally steal from minorities and be like, I don't give a fuck, fuck those minorities, I'm like, well, okay, whatever, but because it was like this dishonest kind of sneaky thing, I think, and and for some weird reason they laid it out and admitted to it, that's why they lost it, I don't know if it was

0:31:23 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah right yeah Yeah It was it was such, it was so insensitive to to be that callous about it to do an interview kind of bragging about it I think that was

0:32:00 Ishmael: Yeah yeah it it just lost fans I mean it's the internet age, I mean, whether it is illegal or not or whatever, but people will be like, ew, I don't want to support that, you know, those people. I mean that's what it was more than anything I don't think it was like cultural appropriation that made them lose their job. Yeah.

0:32:05 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah Yeah. Right yeah Yeah, I tend to agree. Okay, you know, I wanted to talk to you, uh, I'm sure there's plenty more we could say about that, and I think, I think you said it best early on, where it's like, there's, sure, there's a technical sense of a cultural appropriation, and there's, that's why I said, too, like, case by case, but there's also a lot of idiots who are gonna just call it out, oh, that's that, that's that, you know. And it's like yeah

0:32:44 Ishmael: I run into that all the time and I've I've been dragged for that, well, well, they try to drag me, I always say you can't drag me because I can hold my own no matter what, because, you know, on Facebook, I, you probably don't know because you're not on Facebook as much as I am, there's a thing called dragging.

0:32:46 Thomas: A little Bit what?

0:33:00 Ishmael: And there's thing where they feel like they will drag the shit out of you and make you leave a group. Yeah.

0:33:05 Thomas: What? Okay.

0:33:06 Ishmael: Like like just drag means just like call you out and you just have no place to go, you ain't shit, you're this and you're that, and like, like, like, basically just jump on you everybody

0:33:06 Thomas: I don't know what this is. Who is doing this to whom and why?

0:33:19 Ishmael: Like, like, let's say, I, I'm, I'm in a feminist group and I say some anti-feminist shit and I say messed up shit and they just get the whole group gets at me and then they, they call it dragging. They just drag me across the carpet and I have no place to go. I can't defend myself. And then I just have to leave the group. And I, and I always tell people, you can never do that to me because my views are, are backed by evidence. Like I'm not a bigot. I'm not a sexist. I may fuck up sometime, but anyway, so, so the whole cultural appropriation, I have banged out with people on both sides of the aisle regarding it, because I don't think, I think everything that certain people think is cultural appropriation is cultural appropriation. And then I also am in like an all white atheist group where they just try to shit on cultural appropriation like it's not a thing.

And I have to stand up to that. So, but I'm just saying, like, I, I'm willing to talk about it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm going to talk to you about it and if I'm wrong, if you can prove me wrong, that's OK and I'll learn from it. And I think you said that, too. You said, I have no problem with being

0:33:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:34:30 Ishmael: Wrong because then I'm no longer wrong, which it seems so simple, but I don't get why people don't see that. They just want to, they just want us to stay on their side. And I'm on you. I'm On Your Side. Like, listen, if I'm wrong, prove I'm right. And then I'll now no longer be wrong about one less thing.

0:34:37 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:34:51 Ishmael: But that's not the world we live in.

0:34:52 Thomas: Well, yeah, no, totally. So let's, I want to hear what you think about this Bill Maher situation. I can't remember. I don't know if I said anything about it on the show. I might've posted about it. Um I okay

0:35:03 Ishmael: You tagged me in a post, motherfucker. You put me on Front Street. Street you put me on front street he was like hey Ishmael what do you think about this and it's on Your page and every black person on your page is watching you respond to me now. I'm joking. I, I could give two shits about anybody and I told you, okay, what doyou want to break down, what you're talking about?

0:35:05 Thomas: Yeah yeah did I say well I wanted to know what you thought

0:35:27 Ishmael: Before I respond.

0:35:27 Thomas: Well. Oh sure, yeah, well I mean, uh, you know, Bill Maher made a joke and, oh wait, do I need to, uh, oh, uh, oh, I'm gonna put myself in a rough position because I've, if I follow your rules now, I'm reporting on what he said so I have to say it oh crap all right sure

0:35:39 Ishmael: I know what he said do you want me to say so so so a republican Republican congressman was talking about some bullshit Republican congressmen talks about.

0:35:46 Thomas: Go ahead why don't you say it you said come visit his state which was what indiana or something

0:35:56 Ishmael: No, no, no. He said, and why don't you come and work in the fields with us? And Bill Maher said, work in fields? I'm a house nigga. And the whole country burned down. They said, what?

0:35:59 Thomas: Yeah exactly everybody was like yeah it was a weird situation I

0:36:11 Ishmael: Ice Cube got at him. Michael Eric Dyson sucked his dick for like 10 minutes. Uh anyway I I like mike

0:36:17 Thomas: Don't know much about that that first guy I Obviously, I know who Ice Cube is, but yeah.

0:36:21 Ishmael: Eric dyson he's this phony intellectual that a lot of people love he is so phony to me and All he did was praise Bill Maher at the end, and and the funny thing is my response is going to surprise you, because the fact that I think he's phony because he praised him, but at the ends of the day I had no problem with what Bill Maher said, and I'll tell you why because I think he was just a comedian going off it and he was kind of making fun. And this is what I said in the post. I said he caught the Republican talking about working in the fields and he said, I'm a house nigga. Was it insensitive? Yes. But that's what comedians do. And I think he was acting as a comedian. Has Bill Maher been problematic at times? Yes, I guess. I think more Or less than what a lot of people say. A lot of People call him Islamophobic for things I don't think are Islamophobic.

0:36:28 Thomas: Really? Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, it seems like it was a chance for a lot of people to call out everything he's ever said that was wrong.

0:37:20 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. And me as a pro-black person, super pro-black, I could give a, like, I'm pro- black like a motherfucker. And anybody want to test me on my pro-Blackness, you could come and see me. But I didn't find a problem with it. I thought, because he was, at first he wasn't making fun of black people. And he wasn't making fun of slavery. He was making fun of the man in front of him that said, come work in the fields, and he said, oh, I'm a house nigger.

And I get Ice Cube said, and even the woman who actually articulated better, she said, well, house niggers were mainly women were raped, and She brought the realness of that situation, and I understand that. But I don't think that's what his joke was about, just like if I make a Holocaust joke, and if someone said something and I said, "Oh no, I never went to the ovens." I'm not saying people who went to the ovens didn't feel hell, didn't field the worst things in the world, people didn't lose their families. I thought he came at it as a comedian, and I'm one that gives a little lead way to comedians, especially

0:37:59 Thomas: Right, right, right. Hmm.

0:38:31 Ishmael: When they're not being actively hurtful towards the group and I don't think he was trying to be hurtful towards African Americans.

0:38:40 Thomas: Well, this is interesting because my mind has kind of changed. I've gone back and forth on this and it's interesting to hear your point of view because Because at first, I think I had probably the same reaction, actually, because it's like, well, you know, the joke wasn't that like, you know, the the And I and I honestly, I don't know how I feel fully about it.

0:39:01 Ishmael: God, I'm going to get shit. They're going to be the white dude was arguing for a side homie. The fuck is called angry black red and you over there here caping for white people oh see you

0:39:10 Thomas: Yeah wait how much money is there in a white guy going full oh let me see

0:39:13 Ishmael: You about to shit all over me go ahead go ahead go ahead

0:39:15 Thomas: Yeah no no I want to know I and the best argument I heard was, why was that word buzzing around in his brain? Why, why, like, did he so quickly knee-jerk to that? Because, like, I, I I'm for me me, like that's just not in my vocabulary to make that joke. Like I never, I never make jokes like that. I mean it. Like, I just don't because it's, I've been, I'm a pretty young person. We were schooled at a very early age that that is just not even a word that you mess around with. And well, I'll let you, you argue with it if you want, but that was the best argument I heard, which was like, why, why was that? Why did that leap to his mind so quickly? Like what do you, does that give an indication about how he talks maybe off mic? I don't know. So what do you, what do you think about that?

0:39:19 Ishmael: That's all right that was the go ahead sorry you're Gonna find this a weird retort, but I find it more problematic that that's not in your mind. You're an American, how is, when you hear working in the fields, slaves aren't the thing you think of? I mean, mean, he's not thinking of it in a negative way his joke nope nope nope I let you talk so I'm gonna talk no no I'm not even gonna do that go ahead go ahead how

0:40:21 Thomas: No, no, no. Hold on. Let me, let me, let me just, let me just. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Fair enough. Well, I, I, I didn't mean to say that when he said fields, the first thing I thought of was slave. I didn't think of the N word. That's, that's what I mean. Like I thought I, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

0:40:38 Ishmael: Do you oh the fact that you even said the n-word did you not know that I don't like the phrase the n word say Nigga, please. Say nigga, that's something white people created, let's talk about it. But the thing is, and he didn't even say, he said nigga, but that does not matter. He should have said nigga, cause there's no such thing as a house nigga with an A, but I think he kind of whitewashed it.

0:40:45 Thomas: I know. I know. Oh, what if I'm curious, though? What if he had just said, I am a house slave? Would that have been more or less offensive? The same amount? I wonder,

0:41:10 Ishmael: No, cause there's no such thing as house slave. It's a house nigger. Like they defined us. They redefined us less as humans and as niggers. So I want that acknowledgement. I don't want it washed down. That's why I don't like the phrase, the N word. And I don't think people who like, I don't think cause you didn't think of that joke. He thought of it because slavery was at the forefront of his mind, especially talking to a Republican. Do you think he would have said that to a Democrat? I don't think so. I don't think that jumps to mind, but I, I think he locks in Republicans with slavery with like, Hey, why don't you come out to the fields with us? And he probably thought These motherfucking Republicans trying

0:41:24 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah, like they're

0:41:56 Ishmael: To Yeah

0:41:56 Thomas: Trying to like. Yeah, like he's trying to create a false image that Republican. Yeah, I

0:41:59 Ishmael: And the whole thing I was thinking Was he wasn't making fun of black people He wasn't make fun of slaves When he said that He was making fun Of the people that enslaved them And that's something I want to hear Make fun of those people We have the whole confederate flag We have fucking confederates Statues and shit We need to make fun in nazi germany you can't have a nazi symbol on anything in america We're fighting to have fucking Confederate um statues be taken down, yes, make fun of fucking Confediates that locked up black people, so like I'm not act, I'm Not gonna pretend he's some pioneer for black freedom and this and that, but I just didn't find his thing an insult to black people, I found it an insult so to that time in America where there were field niggas. And he was reminded that white Republican who was like, "Oh no, house nigga, I'm a house nigga, I don't go in the field." I think it made him more uncomfortable than it made black people uncomfortable.

0:42:11 Thomas: Agree with that. I agree with that.

0:42:27 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm.

0:43:07 Thomas: Well, I mean, it certainly pissed off a lot of black people. Don't you think?

0:43:11 Ishmael: Yeah, of course it did, because it was like he said that word. That was it. It was not really a breakdown of the whole point.

0:43:12 Thomas: Right. Well, I mean, yeah, but my view is like, I'm just not going to mess with that word. Like I'm not going to risk.

0:43:23 Ishmael: Then don't mess with it. I will never force you to mess with with it. But if people want to throw it in the face of racist people, of people who are not for black people, or people who were not for poor people, fucking use it and don't ever use the N word. Because that is literally, well, I won't say literally, because I don't know if it's literally, but that is something that is for those that use that have used that word or their ancestors use that word. It's not for me. It sounds for me and my people. We know we niggas.

0:43:26 Thomas: Right. Right.

0:43:57 Ishmael: Like, if you care about me and my people, you would help us. Go ahead. I

0:43:57 Thomas: But that's, but that's if as a white guy, well, sorry, I didn't mean, well, but as a white guy, it's hard for me to, now we're falling into this sort of tokenism where like now, now the listeners are thinking like, well, is this just, you know, what, how, how representative is Ishmael's view? If I, if I take this, if I take this ideology or this,

0:44:15 Ishmael: Can't help that. You better have five more black people on. How does that? I can help.

0:44:20 Thomas: No, no, no, no. Hold on. Let me finish. I'm saying Like how I am just going to stay away from the issue because I don't want to risk that you have like a maybe minority view within your group. Like I don't want to like, oh, I took, I took my buddy Ishmael's advice.

0:44:22 Ishmael: Go ahead, man.

0:44:37 Ishmael: I hate to say this, Thomas, because I know this is not you at all, but that's cowardly. It's almost like because Ishmael may feel this way, I can't show it. Well, then have more black People on. It's like if someone came on and said, I want to talk about the Jewish Holocaust.

0:44:52 Thomas: Oh, but there's there's no number of.

0:44:54 Ishmael: But hold on. It's Like If someone said I want to talk about the Jewish Holocaust, and they happen to maybe not agree with me, because I don't know if I agree with you, but they agree with some certain point. And I say, well, that may just mean you're a token because you feel, I mean, either I agree or I have more people on to have a consensus or I I don't like it's not up to me to kind of make your audience not attack you like fuck them I'm black and I'm black I'm a black militant I'm not a black I'm a black militant I'm an angry black motherfucker I just have certain views that I'm

0:44:55 Thomas: Go ahead.

0:45:33 Ishmael: Willing to talk about

0:45:35 Thomas: I just mean to say there's no, number, I mean, I could have any number of black people on my show all the time and I would never statistically be confident that, like, I've represented a group accurately, you know what I mean, like, it's right

0:45:47 Ishmael: But, but But you can just look at like a study or something no one asks a podcaster to have a certificate amount of black black people on that could convey a certain legitimate view within that community. You, but

0:45:56 Thomas: But it's such a high risk, do you at least understand why I would just not want to even bother with the word at all? Like, because it's just, yeah,

0:46:10 Ishmael: That's weird. Cause you have me on, like, wait, are, are you second guessing having me on? I'm kind of confused.

0:46:12 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, no, not at all. Not at all.

0:46:16 Ishmael: Oh, okay. Then who gives a fuck?

0:46:18 Thomas: No, but for me, I mean, for

0:46:20 Ishmael: I'm an outspoken, I'm an outsmoken angry black person and you can send them to me. Ishmael at angry black rant.

0:46:29 Thomas: Me. And and then they'd be like, oh, sure. You're you're just sending me to your black friend.

0:46:32 Ishmael: And I but they can send, they can, I mean, I think I back up how I feel about things, and if they don't, they can attack me, and I'll be willing to defend my side, and we'll be just that, but I think I do my best to try and convey why I feel the way I do, kind of thing.

0:46:40 Thomas: Mm hmm.

0:46:54 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. No, I just mean for me, like like not now. I mean, in the future, if I if I say the word rather than use the phrase that you hate now, I'll have to come up with a different phrase to talk about.

0:46:54 Ishmael: Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, maybe you shouldn't say the word, because you're going to be like, yo, Ishmael said it's cool. And then everyone's going to come at me like, I'm

0:47:10 Thomas: About. That's all I'm trying to say. That's all I'm trying to say, but

0:47:12 Ishmael: I'm Just telling my Honest View about the word. I do not like the phrase, the N word. I rather you say nigga, especially when all you're doing is reporting what was said. It's not like you're calling anyone a nigger or a nigga or whatever it may be. If you're just reporting it, I don't want to hear the n-word because I honestly think that's protecting white people more than protecting the people that is defining, so I'm like just fucking say it please. So but yeah, I understand if you feel uncomfortable because you feel they're gonna be like, "Whoa, what the fuck?" But yeah well but

0:47:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:47:49 Thomas: There's no upside. There's not a lot of upside for a white guy to say it. There's a lot of downside.

0:47:55 Ishmael: Isn't it weird as far as america that that's the one word in all our history that can't be said that that's so suspect yeah well

0:48:02 Thomas: Yeah. It's weird. Yeah. Let me, I want to, I'm running out of time. So I just want to make sure I want to talk because I know there are a lot of people who don't like Bill Maher and want him off the air for this. And my general take was like, look, I just hoped that people would, I hoped that he would apologize. I said he should apologize just because it was a weird, inappropriate thing to say. I mean, it's, I don't know if you agree with me on that, but I thought it was worth an apology. Like, sorry for using a word that people found way offensive and is not my word to use, but I was hoping people would accept his apology at that point.

And that, I think, is key because when he has a show like he does where, for the most part, I mean, we can bicker about it. For the most part, he's trying to fight Republicans. He's trying to fight, you bathroom bills or whatever the bullshit Republicans are doing. He's trying to fight income inequality. He's trying to fight all these things. I my personal hope was that people would accept his apology and move on and allow him to do that work.

0:48:06 Ishmael: Okay Yeah. No

0:49:02 Thomas: Because that's, utilitarian-wise, I mean, I feel like that's just a better outcome. What did you think about that?

0:49:10 Ishmael: As far as him well you already see my point before he even apologized I was okay with his stance but but

0:49:14 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Well, let's say, sorry, I should have clarified. Let's say if we, for hypothetically, let's say you agreed it was offensive, or hypothetically, let's say he said something that was more offensive that you would find offensive. Should we be willing to accept apologies? Because I saw a lot of people who called for his head, and I just don't know, like, what is the line there?

0:49:17 Ishmael: Yeah I'd rather focus Yeah, I rather focus on them than apology, because I don't know what would be more than that to make him apologize, because I, but but let's say he said something really awful. Well, I don't even want to say that. Because I don't know. Because some apologies will not be enough for me. I'll be like, no, fuck you. You don't need a show. But for what he did right now. And as far as apologies go, yeah, he deserves his show. I mean, let's say it offends a ton of people. A ton of minorities. A ton o' Muslims. A ton ov' women. A ton av' black men, um, he still deserves a show. I, I don't see how he doesn't. I mean, okay, let's even pretend he said the, he said a very offensive thing. It was a off the top of the head joke. He's not actively hateful towards a certain group. I mean, come on, like, if he apologized, if he recognized he was is wrong, and he isn't gonna do it again, what the fuck's the problem then? Like, what, what, what is the problem? So yeah

0:49:49 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, right.

0:50:45 Thomas: Yeah, that's what gets a little weird. It's like, you can't just, I and I agree with you, there is totally, totally such a thing as a completely bullshit apology. I totally agree. It's not, if he came on and just said, sorry, you got offended, or, you know, some crap. Like, yes, absolutely, there is a bullshit version of apology that's not. But assuming he, you know, and I know we're playing with like hypothetical facts here or whatever, but, but assuming he accidentally said something that he said was just a joke, even if it was offensive and said, I, it was something I thought of at the top of my head. I'm sorry.

And let's assume he makes an apology that we find, uh, at least to be genuine. There's, there seem to be a lot of people out there who it there's no apology is good enough. And that's, So there's, it's a lot of people though, man, because I just want to know if from a, and again, I kind of tend to look at things a bit utilitarian, you know, of, of what's the greatest good here. And I just, I can't help but think like, which was better if HBO just X'd him off the air or that he got to have a show where he had Ice Cube yelling at him, you know, or whatever like you, he,

0:50:45 Ishmael: Yeah exactly yeah yeah dumb people dumb people I'm I hate to say it like that I have been running into those people though uh exactly

0:51:53 Thomas: I think that's a better outcome.

0:51:54 Ishmael: And he was willing to face the fire from from From Ice Cube, from Michael Eric Dyson, and from Simone, I forget her last name.

0:51:56 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Blanking on her name too.

0:52:04 Ishmael: Yeah, and that's so bad. We're so sexist. But, yeah, I mean, no,

0:52:07 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I, I, I blanked on almost all their names. So I'm equal opportunity.

0:52:12 Ishmael: I don't believe so. You knew every white person's last name, first and last name stuff, right? But, no. But, honestly, like, I he's willing to face the fucking jury and, ugh, exactly.

0:52:14 Thomas: I did. I just feel like that's gotta be a better outcome. Right. I mean, I, I, and then continuing to fight what I think is for the most part, the good fight. I mean, you can quibble with, with his views on Islam or something, but, but yeah. Okay. Well, that was was what bothered me is like, I would, I would hope anyway, that we would still have a room for people. And, and this, this is more of a general thing too. If you've read John Ronson's book, you know, the, so you've been publicly shamed. I think this goes to that wider.

0:52:34 Ishmael: Exactly agree agree oh

0:52:55 Thomas: He's great.

0:52:54 Ishmael: Yeah john ronson I I love him he's

0:52:56 Thomas: I, I love that book. I think it goes no matter.

0:52:56 Ishmael: He's great never heard of it or the book buggerhead I'm trying I'm pretending to be smart like you oh I don't know him

0:53:02 Thomas: Are you serious? No, no, I I'm, I'm not that big of a reader either because I don't have time, but audio books really help for me. But dude, you should check out that book. It's fascinating. I like John Ronson a lot. And he talks about a number of people who, you know, did something or said something wrong or whatever and got shamed on social media to an extent that it's just, it never ends. And it's a fascinating look into that. And I just, in general, no matter how wrong someone is, if they apologize, I tend to want to say like, well, maybe you don't go 100% back to where you were, but if it was something like an off-color joke, maybe it's,

0:53:05 Ishmael: Oh yeah okay I'll look it up yeah yeah yeah

0:53:43 Thomas: And they fully apologize for it and say, hey, that was just a short circuit of my brain. I did not mean that. Then I would hope that people could forgive them, you know?

0:53:49 Ishmael: I I have to say I don't base it on an apology I look at how it happened And how it came to be And you can tell sometime Whether okay this person's racist as fuck Or this person just made a joke Like

0:53:57 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, uh, what was it? Like, oh, Hulk Hogan or something. Who is it who or no was a dog the bounty hunter or some shit like there's somebody who you uncover like a phone call yeah I

0:54:05 Ishmael: Yeah Oh and he left a message To his daughter And he was racist as f**k About his daughter being with a black dude And it's like yeah clearly racist racist

0:54:18 Thomas: I think you oh really yeah yeah exactly so that that that kind of thing I'm not saying that's cool like I'm not saying oh sorry about that and then it's cool like there's a definite range of behaviors that that when when it reveals like uh okay there's some underlying underlying huge racism going on and you've just been hiding it well, you know, like that's a different story.

0:54:42 Thomas: Hmm. Well, we're plum out of time. I could talk to you forever. I went even longer than I should have gone, but, but, Ishmael, it's always great talking to you. Everybody go check out Angry Black Rant and a great show. Uh, great guy. I, thanks for coming on and, uh, talking get me through this stuff. It's great.

0:54:23 Ishmael: Yeah yeah yeah exactly exactly I that's cool so um when do we start recording do I hit record now or do we no I'm joking

0:55:03 Thomas: Yeah. Redo the whole thing. Don't worry. I always record the Skype version just in case. So you're always coming.

0:55:09 Ishmael: I actually record both too as well so I'll send it your way my dude oh it's always good talking to you man

0:55:14 Thomas: Yeah. I never trust anybody. Yeah. Let's do it again sometime soon thanks man Alright, that's it for today's episode. Very interesting stuff. Lots to think about from Ishmael, as usual.

0:55:46 Thomas: I've got to thank my wonderful patrons. You make the show happen, you really do, I mean it. It will immediately fold and I would go back to working a day job if it weren't for my patrons. And the new ones this week are Daniel McSherry, Guy Renaud, Erik, Jess O'Donnell, Adam Gordon, and S. Thank you guys so much for the new pledges, much appreciated. I hope you enjoy the bonus content. Content, early episodes, and sometimes I did a kind of an announcement recently, stuff like that, that I like to treat the patrons to. It's the least I can do for you guys supporting the show. Really, it means a lot. And with that said, I've got to thank my all-time greats, my Hall of Fame patrons. And they are Matt Garrett, Brian Gareford, Peter Skelton, Steve Sigmund, Adrian Borschoff, Roger Metcalfe's package weighs more than Black's Law Dictionary, Matthew Maxon of Odd Atheist Friends, Andrew Waddington, Zabby, John Bodley, Terry Pratchett is really great.

0:56:44 Thomas: There we go, we're getting the messages in the patrons' pledges, I love it. Ian Ryan, Matthew Vernon, Ray Loves Jenny, Robin, The Zika Baby That Lived, Marcel, TheNetSecHeathen, Abseon, Beth Deitch, Sarah McPike, Sammy Clayton Hart, Chas Wallas read some effing Terry Pratchett. Wow, there's a lot, a lot with the Terry Pratchett, okay. So I got message received, guys. Vladimir Alexandrov, Luke Butcher or Boucher, Dan Griffith, Ian Rosano, Jonathan Moye, and Michael Rops, Michael Schaefer of Reason Real Estate, and Hunter Ash. Thank you guys so much for being the top patrons, you absolutely make the show go. All right that's it for this week. Next week back with maybe more of a normal schedule, get a Thursday commentary. I know there's a lot going on with health care, the CBO score, lots to talk about there. Uh, there's also plenty of good voicemails that you guys have left to go through, so I forward to that, and I'll see you guys on Monday. Have a good weekend.