SIO35: The Perils of Being Ex-Muslim, with Eiynah

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode number 35, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, back on the show today, after far too long, is Eiynah. You may know her from Twitter, her blog, nicemangos.blogspot.com. She is a Pakistani Canadian ex-Muslim who blogs about sexuality in South Asia, and she blogs about other stuff, of course, and she has recently come under something of an attack, actually, from people who don't see her as ex-Muslim enough in some ways. So, we all that and more coming at you here. Why don't I just throw it over to my interview, my conversation with Eiynah Nice-Mangos.

0:01:17 Thomas: Joining me right now is Eiynah Nice-Mangos. How you doing, Eiynah?

0:01:21 Eiynah: Good, how are you?

0:01:23 Thomas: Doing great. I am excited to have you back. It's been too long. Sorry about that. I think it's been too long since I've had you on the show. It hasn't been that long since Andrew Torrez and I were over on your podcast, Delightful Podcast, Polite Conversations with Eiynah. Check that out if you haven't already. I'm sure you probably have. It's a great show. But Eiynah, it has been too too long. Lots to talk to you about.

I know a lot's been going on with you, and But I wanted to start with, for anyone who doesn't remember back a couple of years ago, I think, when I first had you on, you've always had to talk about the very delicate line that ex-Muslims often have to a walk between, you know, criticizing Islam and also being subject to anti-Muslim bigotry time and time again. That's something you've talked a lot about. We're going to touch on that for sure. But I thought of you when I went to Europe for the first time recently, and this is going to probably sound insane to some people, but this is the truth of my life. I'll just go ahead and describe it.

I certainly have been around Muslims. Like, there are plenty of Muslims around where I am. I see them. No big deal. Don't care. But when I went to Europe, I'll be honest, it was the first time ever. It was in London a couple of times, maybe more than a couple, probably a half dozen times.

0:01:57 Eiynah: Yeah, yeah, when?

0:02:46 Thomas: I see a normal, just a normal looking guy dressed in everyday, just normal looking dude attire, you know, like sunglasses kind of looking like just any other person. And he is escorting along, presumably what seemed to be his girlfriend or wife or whatever it would be in it.

0:03:05 Eiynah: Probably not his girlfriend.

0:03:07 Thomas: Yeah. I don't know how it works. I have no, no clue in a, in a full on Burka and with nothing showing except her eyes like full on. And I, I I'll be honest with you. I've never seen that. And in as in person, I mean, of course, whatever news video, whatever, but I, going to express some honest feelings. You tell me what, what to make of it. But I was like, kind of offended.

Like I was, I see, I See a dude, he gets to wear whatever the fuck he wants. Like he gets, to be dressed out in the open, showing however much skin he wants to it just looks like an everyday, whatever you wouldn't, you wouldn' even think twice about what he was wearing. And then a woman in a bag and it's just like, I don't know how, like, Like, and the first person I thought of was you. I'm not even joking. I thought it was like, I need to ask Eiynah, like, what is, am I, what is happening here? Like, how do I process this? And I, and I, I really felt like, God, I'm mad at this guy. Like, well, how would you do that to your woman, your wife, your whatever? I don't know.

You know, like how would You do that? I can't fathom that, but I know it's a cultural difference. Help me through this. I know what, how does someone like me or people out there make, reconcile the fact that like, yes, of course, people have the freedom to wear what they want. People have the kingdom to practice their religion. Of course, I believe in all that, but how offensively misogynistic is it to engage in this behavior?

0:03:45 Eiynah: Yeah,

0:04:34 Thomas: And I feel like I want us to be able to judge these people and be like, don't do this. But how do we sort through this? Help me through this.

0:04:42 Eiynah: I mean, it's it's certainly more complicated now that Trump is president and he's made his feelings about Muslims known, and, you know, there have been a rise in hate crimes against Muslims and people have been shot up in a mosque in Quebec. So I think, I think we have to be very careful in how we have our discussions around Islam. But that said, there, make no mistake, that is an absolutely horrifying, disgusting, misogynistic practice.

0:05:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:11 Eiynah: But if someone were to attack this woman in the street, I mean, I'd be the first one to stand up and be like, what the fuck are you doing? Right? Like, so, so people think, so there are some people who think that opposing the concept is kind of like a pass to just hate on these people, which is, which it absolutely isn't, right?

0:05:16 Thomas: Oh, of course.

0:05:31 Thomas: Right.

0:05:31 Eiynah: You don't know about the woman, like, maybe she is not, well, the dude as well, right, well again, you can't make that judgment as well.

0:05:34 Thomas: Well, it's interesting that you're directing toward the woman. I was thinking more towards the dude, but yeah, yeah. True.

0:05:42 Eiynah: Well, yes, more often than not, it is the guy who's pressured the woman into wearing this. But there are some women who go against their families and wear this as some sort of weird rebellion. Like, that's a thing I'm seeing now. And it's funny, the last time I was on your show, it was to talk about niqabs as well and burqas. Yeah, it's so complicated, I think.

0:05:42 Thomas: Yeah, right.

0:06:03 Thomas: Well, It's a really tough issue. And I, I'm, I apologize if you're back on to talk about the same thing, but I just, I really did think of you when I saw this and I just I, cause you're right. Right. Like, I don't want to, especially in today's climate with Trump, like in the there really is anti-Muslim bigotry. Anyone who's in denial of that, I mean, we need to talk because the kinds of things that go on, especially in the Trump administration and trying to ban all refugees, like people who are in desperate need, you know, just because you think they're somehow loosely connected to terrorism. I mean, there's a lot of horrible stuff going on, but it is so hard to look at this and not want to say something, do something. I mean—because picture this. Like, of course, as you said, if anyone—go ahead, go ahead.

0:06:52 Eiynah: But what are you going to say to someone in the street? Sorry. Sorry, like, like,

0:06:55 Thomas: Exactly. I know exactly right. However, me—this is why it's such a difficult issue. What if I see—if I were to just be walking down the street and I see a couple, doesn't matter any racial ethnicity characteristics about him, just blank couple, whatever. And I see them, the man being rough with a woman, doing something misogynist, maybe not outright like beating, but like being very rough to the point of where it's uncomfortable. Is that something?

0:07:24 Eiynah: Physically?

0:07:24 Thomas: Yes, physically rough.

0:07:24 Eiynah: Rough? Yeah. Well, If he's physically assaulting her or, you know, intimidating her, then obviously you're in the right to intervene, but,

0:07:30 Thomas: Right. How much different is it keeping a woman in a burka? I mean, and again, Again, it could be the woman's decision. I don't know, but, but I'm not trying to make the case that it's the same thing, but it's, is it that much different? Is it, it's this is why I want to sort through it.

0:07:35 Eiynah: No, and you're right, yeah, No, I, I understand, and these are difficult, these are typical questions, uh, good to sort through them. I think it, absolutely see what people say, that is that, okay, this woman in the West, or or wherever, has a choice about whether she puts it on or not. Right. So that means that it doesn't symbolize oppression, but that's just nonsense, because the fact of the matter is that most women who have to wear that in the world do not get a choice. So you might have a choice, and you might want to use that choice to perpetuate this oppression, this oppression of women, and this, this mistreatment and abuse and humiliation of women, this kind of erasure of women from the public sphere. You might want to do that. That's fine.

0:08:36 Eiynah: But don't try and tell me that that is not what this symbolizes, right? It's like a lot of people have made comparisons to like Confederate flags or whatever.

0:08:47 Thomas: In what way? Confederate flags.

0:08:49 Eiynah: Just that it's a symbol of hate, right, yeah, Yeah. Except it's the victim. Like often the victims are arguing for this symbol of hate to be perpetuated. So it's it's strange.

0:08:51 Thomas: Well, it is, but yeah.

0:09:05 Eiynah: It's

0:09:04 Thomas: Well, we do. It is such a difficult line to walk that we do, and I get it because again, being a, being, being the most privileged possible person. Like I'm a, just a total exhibit of privilege. I don't want to be mansplaining on, I've really put me in a museum of like this, this is every privilege pretty much. I mean, I was, I Was raised pretty poor actually. So I have that. That's my one thing. But other than that, and to be able to say, to have me come and, you know, white-splain, mansplain my hair, this is what you need to do, everybody. I get, I totally get the resistance to that. But it's also weird that we, there's a backlash.

0:09:46 Eiynah: Not about that. Right.

0:09:47 Thomas: Well, hold on, let me finish my sentence. Because like, there is a backlash against saying that people can ever be brainwashed in any way. Because I believe they can. I believe I was brainwished into a conservative ideology as a kid. I wasn't so much with religion because my parents, only one of my parents was was religious. But many people I know were brainwashed into a hardcore conception of things. And it's like we pretend that that doesn't happen. And then a lot of times people pretend that this couldn't happen with Muslim men and women, that sure, a Muslim woman could be saying, yes, I want to wear this absurd bag that completely hides me in a total misogynistic way. I want to do that. It's, it's such a hard thing to want to say, no, you, that's wrong. You can't want that. Like you've been told you want that you've Been raised as though you want that or your, your religion tells you want That, but there's, there, you know, like, I don't know. What do we do? I

0:10:00 Eiynah: It's. Yeah.

0:10:43 Eiynah: And you some people literally fear fear that they will burn for eternity if they don't want it. So how much of a choice really is it even for the people who choose it is. I mean, those things are all true. However, in the society that we live in, we do give people choices, right? So we cannot make that decision for them.

0:11:03 Thomas: Would never say, let me, let me clarify. I would Never say that we should pass laws to restrict this. I actually, I don't think that's the right way.

0:11:10 Eiynah: I will say that I kind of disagree with you there, because I think that in some situations, we absolutely have to pass laws to get the ball rolling. Uh, like

0:11:19 Thomas: Like what kind of laws then?

0:11:20 Eiynah: Um, like no face veils in court, which you know, we talked about last but

0:11:25 Thomas: I, I kind of think that that's a different story. Sorry, I'm still talking about my scenario of just a couple walking down the street that I saw. In court, yeah, I mean, if you need to see someone's identity, those are times when I do think it's totally reasonable to have, you know, if it's a blanket thing, if it'S not targeting one religion, if IT's like any religion, anyone who would cover their face in this one situation.

0:11:48 Eiynah: Then they'd say they say it's targeting one religion because only one religion wants to make people cover their face.

0:11:49 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I think that'sa deeper legal topic. I'll have to ask Andrew about And you'll have to find the Canadian version of Andrew to ask about. But I think in terms from from what I've learned from Andrew, just totally my opinion based on that, I mean, there's ways you can get around. Like if it really is a necessity that the person's face be seen, the law takes that into account in this country. I mean, you can, like, for example, like employment law, it's not true that if someone has some obscure religion that needs every Wednesday off, they don't just get to do that. Like, there has to be, you have to show that you make some reasonable accommodation, but if it's Not reasonable for their job, then they can't do it. So it's like, it is not as though the law always protects any religious thing you want to do ever. Ever. So legally speaking, I think that as long as there's a real interest in, you know, whatever the law is, like your face being seen or whatever, I Think it's okay. I can't speak for Canada.

0:12:19 Eiynah: Yeah, Yeah, see, she, the woman who took, uh, who took this to court, won against the federal government. Zunera Ishak, I think her name was, and she won the right to wear her face veil during citizenship oath ceremony or whatever. So, yeah.

0:13:10 Thomas: But I'm trying to, but bring it back to what, What can we do? I just want to explore this because what's going on in my mind is I'm trying to think of equivalent situations where just sub in white people, just to remove the bias, you know, of anything, just, there's so that there's no, like, you know, you're discriminating against people of color, and can't think, sub in a white couple. I'm trying to think of the equivalent thing that, in general, people would be totally comfortable intervening in. I brought up the, you know, being kind of rough with, with someone. I mean, if you heard a, a, uh, a boyfriend telling a girlfriend, like, you need, you need to cover up cause you're looking fat or something, like, there are things that I think, if the, the internet video of stranger confronting misogynistic boyfriend went viral, it's not to say everyone would do that. Everyone would intervene. Most people just want to mind their own business. But I'm talking about, like, what in society would be championed if the video went viral, and what would be like, oh my God, this guy is horrible.

0:14:09 Thomas: And I bet you, you could think of a whole lot of pretty equivalent situations where if it's a white couple, sure, tell off that that misogynistic boyfriend, you know?

0:14:18 Eiynah: No, but here's the thing, right? We respect religions as a society globally. Globally, and that's where it gets really complex, because then religions start to make really strange demands that don't kind of fit with 21st century modern life. But we still haven't caught up and we still have this old religion is so wonderful, and we must always respect it. So you're never going to get that widespread acceptance for someone just challenging someone on the basis of their religious belief in the street. Whereas, you know, if someone's saying, oh, cover up because you look fat on a bus to a woman, that will be far more heroic than this accepted cultural religious practice that people feel they must respect.

0:14:19 Thomas: Sure. But that's the issue though, because we are way too protective sometimes. Sometimes with good reason, but other times, I mean, because honestly, like that scene that I described, like it is jarring to me for its misogyny. Like it's fucking ridiculous. Like that should not exist. I don't care anything, like any religious practices, belief, what you you, what you think about, you know, as long as it's your thing doesn't affect me, doesn't affect your wives and daughters that you're putting it, you know, I don't care, but it's not, so I'm not, I don't, I care that people are Muslims, like, I don't whatever, I know that religion is going to exist, of

0:15:18 Eiynah: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, mm hmm. Mm-hmm.

0:15:42 Eiynah: Well, there's many, many Muslims that don't do this as well. So and you want to hear like harsh anti-naqab, anti-hijab talk like come to like a liberal, moderate Muslim families dinner party. You'll hear like the harshest criticisms of this stuff because, you know, obviously they're not afraid of being anti-Muslim bigots or whatever. So they're all very open. I sit there sometimes and I, you Know, I'm very amused by hearing some of my relatives talk about how ridiculous and disgusting and awful it is and how they're ruining. Our cultures. And so, yeah,

0:15:46 Thomas: Course, yeah, of course, interesting, yeah It's true, and that is another weakness, like I, I can't speak for how prevalent this is, and I, and again, I, it's something thing you have to say all the time. I'm not saying all Muslims, I'm not, you know, all that, all those excuses and things aside. I've just, this does exist and it's something that I think if were any other thing in our society, if it were any other misogynistic practice that wasn't shielded by religion, I think our society morally would call it out. You know, maybe not every person, maybe not everyone in public or something, but but in general, there would be a moral atmosphere of pressure around this thing that that would would in general bring it to an end or at least make it make it something where they're judged. Like, honestly, I think they should be judged for this. Like, I Think there should be societal judgment on putting women in this thing. Like, it's just stupid.

0:17:00 Eiynah: Certainly.

0:17:11 Eiynah: Yeah. You know, I'm not going to lie and say that I don't judge people when I see them like that. So yeah, absolutely. I think that that also expresses a sort of a form of extremism, and people get really mad when I say that. I'm not saying that all niqab wearing families or, you know, terrorists or whatever, I'm just saying that extremism comes in different forms, and this is a form of non-violent extremism. It is extreme, this is not normal or moderate in any any way, and we need to start recognizing it as such. There are many Muslim countries who prohibit, uh, face veiling as well. Like, I remember I shared a, uh, a list on on Twitter, and yeah, I don't remember that the list off offhand, but but

0:17:48 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, that's right. Talk about that. Yeah, right. That's OK. But I can attest to it. I remember looking at that and it was, it was very mind blowing to me. I didn't know that.

0:18:06 Eiynah: Yeah, because I mean, and and that's acceptable, they're not called Islamophobic.

0:18:15 Thomas: Yeah. So just to explicitly say it, it's, it'S a list of Muslim majority countries that, that banned, uh, what would you say specifically? I'll always get the terminology wrong.

0:18:16 Eiynah: Right, the

0:18:26 Thomas: The niqab.

0:18:26 Eiynah: Niqab, the face veil. Yeah, yeah, because, uh, you know, there were some problems with the workplace absenteeism, I think it was Kuwait, right, right, there absolutely, it's

0:18:27 Thomas: Okay. Oh, clocking in for the wrong person or something. I don't even think of that. Yeah. Well, there are just a lot of everyday reasons you need to see people's freaking faces. And it's like if you just have one side of the gender, you know, one gender that's like, no, sorry, I can never see their faces like it's not going to work out.

0:18:47 Eiynah: Not it's just not practical. Even in Saudi, I mean, where they enforce the, you know, the black cloak and the headscarf. I, I haven't been, I've admittedly been in a more progressive, well, progressive for Saudi standards, they won't beat you for for showing your face. So, uh, the city that I was in was one of the more modern cities. So I didn't see the face veil being enforced, but I did, you know, grow up around a lot of niqabis just generally. I didn't know them personally. They just existed around me. Like, I grew up in a compound, which has now become a source of great controversy.

0:18:58 Thomas: Hmm.

0:19:33 Thomas: Yeah, we'll get to that.

0:19:35 Eiynah: Um, But you know, know, I left that compound every day, so I did, you know, exist around Saudis, and the supermarkets and the malls, on the buses, everywhere, you know, and the copies were there in every doctor's office waiting room, so I grew up around them, and I was, you know, equally disturbed every time I, you, it's not something I ever got used to. In fact, I had a horrifying experience, is about like a four-year-old, I think, in a supermarket, for a five-year-old, um, I lost my mom in in a in a supermarket aisle, and I turned around and all of the women looked the same, and it was a nightmare, I can't tell, I can tell you how horrifying that was. I, you know, I pulled on so many black cloaks, mommy, mommy, and when they turned around, it wasn't my mom,

0:19:36 Thomas: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Oh,my

0:20:23 Eiynah: And I was crying, and I'm like, how will I ever find her in this sea of women in black abayas? And then she heard me crying and she came to me, but oh, it was scary, oh,

0:20:36 Thomas: Gosh. And, you Know, I want to get your thoughts on this because a lot of times people share a meme or they'll bring up, well, what about nuns? You know, they wear this kind of stuff. What do you what do you think about that comparison?

0:20:43 Eiynah: The nun comparison, it's so bad, it's so bad. Okay, so first of all, nuns are not like your everyday, you know, Christians walking around, not in Islam, it's not just nun level people that are expected to be this modest, it's like freaking and everyone, right? And secondly, nuns are not my go-to example for, you know, exemplary liberated women. They're also very oppressed. I'm not impressed by the level of freedoms nuns have.

0:20:53 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Right. Right, right.

0:21:20 Thomas: And, but there is, virtually, I totally agree. And there's virtually no such thing that I know of, of your, your husband or boyfriend or something saying you need to go be a nun, like, you got it. Sorry, you have to go where this like it's just not the same. I mean, for the most part, it's that really is the woman's choice. Like, I mean I mean I still think it's stupid, like I'm not into it. I think it is ridiculous because I don't agree with any religion really, but it is not the same as having cover of religion to be able to say you need to, sorry honey, you have to completely cover your body because no man can see any part of yeah, exactly.

0:21:34 Eiynah: Yeah, yeah. Right. Nobody is telling people to go be nuns. Yeah. Yeah, but that's just like expressing ownership right there. Like it just doesn't get more purely misogynistic. It's so open. You're just owning her, right? She exists only for your eyes. Literally, you put her in a fucking bag so nobody else can see her. It is insanity. But how do we tackle this effectively?

0:22:09 Thomas: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so that's what I want to ask you to try to, I guess, maybe come to some sort of conclusion on this part of the topic. Okay, so I don't think I should have and I didn't say anything if I wanted to, but it's not like that would do anything. It feels really, that's something that I think a lot of people are resistant to in general, interfering with other people's lives. I get that and speaking as though they know what everybody should be doing. But But is there what do we do? I mean, how how is there anything any of us can do really to, I guess, eventually lead this to being a more obscure practice that's not like so culturally accepted? You know, like, is there Anything we can do?

0:23:06 Eiynah: Yeah, I think we need to keep the cultural pressure up and we need to really distinguish from the right wing cultural pressure, because that's what makes the mainstream resist this topic, right? Because they keep seeing it as tainted with these associations. They're like, oh, it's only like Fox News types that care about this. And let's be all liberal. Let's be the opposite of that. Let's not. Let'S celebrate the hijab. So we got to we got to make this distinction for once. And it's not it's not clear right now at all. It's all very blurred.

And under Trump, it'S gotten way way worse. There's a really big overlap between people who supposedly are liberal critics of Islam and people who are like alt-right critics of Islam. So first, we need to make that distinction clear. Otherwise, we will never, ever move ahead. And then we needto keep the cultural pressure up. We need to have very measured liberal critiques that will resonate with the mainstream, with the mainstream media. We needto make them see, instead of insult them in every corner, Or oh the fucking left is responsible For everything in the world Like when the right is burning The world

0:23:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:13 Eiynah: Down If you're still focused on the left It's just you're not getting through to them You're not building the bridges that need to be built You're just joining the right So

0:24:14 Thomas: Gosh.

0:24:23 Thomas: Did Eli Bosnick got a great tweet saying I I think essentially I I believe essentially what you're saying. It says Trump, it's a quote like a headline, Trump voters who stuck their hand in a garbage disposal, the cost of liberal elitism in kitchen appliances.

0:24:41 Thomas: Great Eli Boz tweet there. Like, yes, everything is being framed in terms of how did liberals cause this? And we're not holding people accountable for the people who are actually burning down the world, as you said. I really agree with that sentiment. Can I ask you, how do you feel about, I know there's going to be a lot of potential controversy involved in this guy, but how do you feel like about how someone like Bill Maher carries about this? You know, because he's someone who really harps on liberals for not doing enough about this, but I don't know. I'm not ex-Muslim. I don'T know if he ever goes too far, really. I DON'T, I DONT don't know. What do you think about that?

0:24:54 Eiynah: Yeah Yeah Well, he's a comedian, right? So he has that to fall back on. He often, I think, says some stuff that makes me cringe. And I'm like, oh, why? You know? And then after the Milo episode and the championing of Asura and Amani, no matter what, I just honestly, oh

0:25:22 Thomas: Right.

0:25:43 Thomas: The champion. What, what do you mean? I thought he had Ostra Nemanjian and I thought he argued with her quite a bit.

0:25:48 Eiynah: Disney, I didn't see that. See the last I saw was him saying, oh yeah, we should, you know, support people like her, poor her, she was driven to vote for Trump. And so I, so when she was on there, I was like, I can't

0:25:50 Thomas: Oh, okay.

0:25:59 Thomas: I don't know. I, I, yeah, I would suggest that. I think you might have the wrong impression there. I'm pretty sure he, I'm Pretty sure he fought back against her pretty hard on, on the show.

0:26:08 Eiynah: That's great to hear, it's great, so yeah

0:26:10 Thomas: Yeah. I mean, maybe I'm misremembering, but, but yeah,I, I mean he's, he's no, I don't think he's any softy for anyone who supports Trump. I know he's really anti Trump. But

0:26:20 Eiynah: No, I love that about him, I love that he also, while, uh, maybe hitting hard on liberals sometimes even now, uh, he does, honest, he does hit hard on Republicans, maybe even harder so that kind of then feels a bit more genuine

0:26:33 Thomas: Right. Right. Feels a bit more fair. Yeah. Even though and I'm with you, I disagree with him all the time, but I find him to be a voice that I don't mind being, you know, pretty prominent because at least he's as you said, it sounds fair. It sounds genuine and pretty consistent, but also he's a liberal who really harps on, um, too much liberal tolerance of things like, uh, uh. What's the technical name for the entire, uh? Did you see Abaya? Is that it?

0:26:38 Eiynah: Uh-huh um regressive Well, there's so many terms, but yeah, in Saudi, it was called abaya, the cloak, yeah the

0:27:08 Thomas: Oh, okay. Right. There's the whole getup. The entire... The bag. I don't know what else to call it.

0:27:15 Eiynah: Whole the bag is the burqa, abaya

0:27:17 Thomas: The burka. Oh, burka, okay. Okay, okay, yeah, he's, he calls liberals out who aren't, you know, who are a little too okay with burkas, like, so I just wanted to get your opinion in case you, do you, yeah.

0:27:17 Eiynah: Is just the body, yeah yeah

0:27:31 Thomas: Go ahead.

0:27:30 Eiynah: For for sure, I'm with him on all those things. Um, I'm just not with him, you know, when he compares Milo to hitch or when he, um, I don't know. I felt quite a bit. He didn't push back on a lot of things. I wasn'T loving that episode.

0:27:40 Thomas: Yeah, that was pretty stupid. Yeah. Yeah I did, I did an episode on that. I certainly disagree with a lot of how he handled it. However, he is not championing Milo. He never will. I think he, after the episode, he, he already said he didn't like Milo and he didn't, I don't think he got, I didn't get the sense that he'd ever invite him back. I know it's a low bar, but at least he's not, you know, hashtag bring back, you free Milo or anything like that.

0:28:13 Thomas: So, but, but I, I take your point And I definitely would never offer like a blanket, uh, acceptance of every Bill Maher point or anything, but. But I think think that maybe he's, in terms of this battle against liberal apathy toward burkas, you know, he's somebody who's pushing back on that. So interesting. All right, well, let's get to the the broader feeling of walking that line between anti-Muslim bigotry and criticizing Islam, because you've butted against this a lot lately, um, where you're getting it from all sides and, uh, talk about that. You've, there's, I think, oh, all right, I'm just going to let you go. Just, just tell us what's been going on. Uh, give us the picture for people who are coming from a total

0:28:13 Eiynah: Yeah, I guess so.

0:28:59 Eiynah: Okay,

0:28:59 Thomas: Ignorant place here.

0:29:00 Eiynah: So I'm going to try and condense it. I think it all boils down to me kind of being the one who dares to raise her voice in criticism of in-group favorites like Dave Rubin, mostly. That gets me so much hate, I cannot tell you. And I'm just sitting here thinking, how on earth is this guy acceptable to you? How is it possible to have a brain and not see what is going on there and

0:29:03 Thomas: I don't know. I,

0:29:38 Eiynah: Also be calling yourself liberal at the same time? One of those things is not right. You're either not a liberal.

0:29:42 Thomas: Well, well let's, Let's cover some basics, though, like what happened to you, because there was, an there's I mean really an attack on you, really. I'm on Twitter.

0:29:49 Eiynah: OK, so what happened? Right. Right. It was a full fledged smear campaign involving many people that I have supported, promoted and, you know, championed myself. So kind of shocking. There's always people in the background that hate me because I dislike Rubin. This is literally it. Meanwhile, they complain about people on the left who cannot tolerate, you know, dissenting views And different opinions and things like that. Uh, but me having a different opinion means you, you can just like, uh, try to discredit my entire life, and that's okay. Meanwhile, you are also saying that lefties who try to discredit Ayan's life story, Ayan Hirsi Ali, or who question her FGM victim status, those people are disgusting.

And yes, they are, absolutely. But Then my whole existence, repeatedly, time and time again. Every, every time that someone gets into a Twitter fight with me, there's like a few people, kind of right-leaning atheists, who are like, "Oh, let me jump in on this fight," whatever it's about. And let me start saying that Aina is not a real ex-Muslim. Aina has never lived in Saudi Arabia. Aina is this, Aina isn't that, you know? Someone was like, once was like, "Oh, I bet she's not even a woman. I bet he's a man." I mean, just stupid things that have been debunked time and time again, again, and yeah.

0:29:52 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

0:31:11 Thomas: Let's Give people an indication, because this is really inside baseball kind of stuff if you're not on Twitter, uh, and I'm sympathetic to a lot of my listeners who are, who just don't quite follow along, but all, let me, let me just say, uh, is it fair to say that that there are people with, what, tens of thousands of followers, if not in some cases more, who are who essentially started waged a campaign of Aina is in that like her opinion is not valid because she's not ex-Muslim enough. She didn't suffer enough under Islam. Therefore, she's Not a valid voice when she says, and it's all to do with you. By the way, you're not embracing Islam. You're not like a, you're not like a full-on like Islam apologist. You're just exactly, but

0:31:16 Eiynah: Yeah.

0:31:30 Eiynah: Hundreds Yeah, yes.

0:31:58 Eiynah: I hate Islam. I spent my life criticizing it

0:32:01 Thomas: What are they, what have they been saying about you? And I can testify to, again, those people who aren't really in on this, like this was a pretty big thing. Like people with a lot of followers were throwing this at Eiynah. What were the kinds of things they were saying about you?

0:32:01 Eiynah: For fuck's sake. Um, well, one person who's a fellow ex-Muslim, um, she joined in to say that because she's lived somewhere else in the Middle East, she knows what life is like in Saudi Arabia. And because I lived, lived in a compound, something I've always been honest about. I have a whole podcast series called Life in Saudi Arabia, where I discuss this duality of life that I had in Saudi, having the privilege of having a little kind of reverse Amish compound, where it was like a pocket of a normalcy. But we had to leave that compound every day to go to school, to go shopping, to do whatever, right? So I kind of existed in both worlds.

0:32:53 Thomas: Right. And you said that way back in the day on my podcast, and they tried to make it like there, this is this thing you were hiding. Like this, they've uncovered that Aina really lived in a compound in Saudi and not, not actually like, what, in like the most dire of situations that you would have to apparently live under to have some cred?

0:33:03 Eiynah: Yeah, they tried to spin it.

0:33:14 Eiynah: Yes. So they said it was like one guy, Lalo, who lives to discredit me. I haven't even interacted with the guy in ages, but he just cannot stand the fact that I have spoken vocally against Ruben, who I think is very harmful and toxic. So I don't know, he's made this personal, so he kind of posted about how he's discovered, you know, they're finding these inconsistencies, like, "Oh, here she says she lived under sharia and here she said she lived in a compound which had a pool where women were allowed to be as topless." Which is it, Aina? Huh? You know, yeah. It was both right And I've explained, if you would just take the time to even listen to the full clip that you're kind of clipping, you, you will understand how it was both. And then other people who lived in Saudi Arabia, prominent ex-Muslims, have jumped in, uh, to say no, that story makes perfect sense, because that's kind of the life I had, yet they are not discredited.

0:33:57 Thomas: It's it's both yeah yeah what what Are these compounds like, what, why were you there, what are they about, for people who don't know?

0:34:24 Eiynah: So of So I'm not ethnically Saudi, I'm Pakistani, um, and a lot, lot of people who are not Saudi get offered, you, perks to come and live and work in Saudi Arabia so that life is a bit more bearable. So there's a lot of compounds, uh, that have a lot of westerners.

0:34:43 Thomas: It like An economy thing?

0:34:44 Eiynah: It's

0:34:44 Thomas: Like they're trying to boost their economy or get you, know, okay,

0:34:47 Eiynah: Not that they're trying to boost their economy. It's just that they are just trying to make a different bubbles of existence for, for foreigners to actually want to come in and work, yeah. So that is economy related, like, I, till the oil boom, there was nothing there, so they had to get a lot of foreigners in to build the country, so that's why they have these compounds.

0:34:57 Thomas: Right. Yeah and They allowed these compounds to be kind of independent. You didn't, you weren't under sharia law in the compound, essentially?

0:35:17 Eiynah: No, but if you were caught with alcohol or something, like, I means, yes, people drank on our compound, but the risk was like, you know, they turn a blind eye, but it's not, not like they cannot drag you out and chop your head off for doing something. So every time, as a kid, you know, if we were smoking pot or you drinking moonshine, we were scared, but we did it, so, um,

0:35:30 Thomas: Oh. Wow. Yeah but That's all inside the compound, right?

0:35:45 Eiynah: All inside the compound. Of course, yes, but it's not like I wasn't forced into a black bag against my will by the state. Because every day that I left, I had to wear an abaya. It's not that I haven't experienced morality police and their canes, which I've seen them hit my mother's ankles as a kid, you know, for seeing her headscarf slip in the market. When we went to Mecca, the morality police is really aggressive over there. So they try to, like, herd women away from men, like with these big sticks. Like, I've been pushed onto the floor. I've almost been trampled. I mean, they're physically, physically aggressive. That Now, how can you tell me that I have not lived under sharia when I have absolutely experienced all those things on a regular fucking basis. Yes, I had access to a fucking community pool. That does not change anything. I'm sorry if I got to swim once in a while, you know, and yeah

0:35:46 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah and and the thing is, like, what is the, the point of this, even, like, I, I don't get it, like, it sounds like you don't even know, like, what, what really the point is, other than you suspect it's because you, you're critical of Dave Rubin. It's not like you're is there any opinion you've expressed where you're like fighting back and defending Muslims and that's why he thinks you're not a Muslim enough or ex-Muslim enough. I don't even, I don't get it. Sure.

0:37:09 Eiynah: I will always defend Muslims from bigotry. I will always defend Muslims from like, no,

0:37:12 Thomas: Is there a time where you specifically, like, butted heads against Lalo and that's, or somebody, and, and again, I'm not, I'm just trying wondering where it's coming from. I'm not, yeah.

0:37:21 Eiynah: But a lot, you know, I don't know. I, a lot of people were upset when I spoke to Sam Harris on my podcast, and Sam was great. You know, even though we didn't always agree, uh, that conversation was really friendly, really polite. We had a good time. He was fine, but many fans could not handle it. Did I disagree? So I was attacked after that for like three weeks or something, three, four weeks, like, endlessly, and I still get comments saying you had the audacity, you know, you had Sam on your show and you wasted his time. It's like, no, like, we scheduled an hour and he stayed for three hours. I did not force him to. I don't think he hated the conversation, so

0:37:22 Thomas: No,

0:38:06 Eiynah: Much, he ended our chat, you being very, uh, generous and complimentary about me. I, I did not force him to do that, so uh,

0:38:07 Thomas: I don't think so either, yeah. And the most ridiculous thing, maybe you want to mention, is they also tried to spread the lie that you were, what, kicked out or not allowed into the Ex-Muslims of North America thing, and

0:38:28 Eiynah: He was just baselessly, Lala was saying to people that I've heard that she was not even accepted by Ex-Muslims of North America because they did not buy her story. Now, why he would

0:38:42 Thomas: Then one of the creators of that group who, it's, it's, I can't remember their names, but I know both of them, yeah.

0:38:45 Eiynah: Muhammad say it, I think yeah, yeah, Because he He had approached me a few years ago to join Ex-Muslims of North America. And I, you just preferred to keep my anonymity, stay out of politics and things like that. That didn't really work. I get dragged into politics anyways. But, you know, I just I didn't feel comfortable because of privacy issues and stuff to to join an organization. I just so I'm the one that said I can't do it. But the rumor that he's circulating and did not retract even after he was embarrassingly refuted immediately is that I'm the one that was rejected. So I don't know what the purpose of these things is. And it's all coming from a group that claimed to be the biggest allies and supporters of ex-Muslims. It's so absurd. Third, one ex-Muslim falls out of line, and they have to be discredited in every way possible. You just cannot fall out of the line. There are certain topics you cannot touch. One of them is you cannot criticize Dave Rubin. You cannot, you know, be critical of Gad Saad. You cannot say the words right wing.

0:38:48 Thomas: Right, right, right. Right.

0:40:02 Eiynah: You just cannot. Even though people are very clearly expressing solidarity with, you white genociders or uh, you know, Tommy Robinson, you just cannot point that out and say, well, that's kind of you leaning a bit right now, so that is offense that you should be shunned for in

0:40:23 Thomas: Yeah, and the smear campaign is really absurd and embarrassing. And you pointed out, I think, that as much as these people hate the oppression Olympics, they were doing, like, an oppression Olympics on you, like in a way.

0:40:37 Eiynah: The worst way Possible. Eiynah was not oppressed enough in Saudi Arabia, like, what the fuck is that? But I could not dream up such an absurd thing to say. And what kind of gross person tries to measure the level of someone's oppression? You know that Saudi princesses exist, right? Like, they're very wealthy, very pampered with living in palaces. But they are oppressed as hell. They are. They are not, you know, they're not allowed to leave whenever they want, wear whatever they want. Things like that. Same thing. I'm not a princess by any means. I did not grow up that wealthy. I lived in a very small house, though. They tried to paint it as like some sort of resort. Someone found a YouTube commercial for the most luxurious compound In Saudi Arabia. Mine was nothing like that. And they posted it and said, um, yeah, that my life was probably like a five-star resort and that, uh, that I only dabbled in oppression. I didn't really experience it. Um, and this is all coming from a fellow ex-Muslim, uh, Yasmin, who I have done nothing but support.

0:40:38 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:52 Thomas: Now, where's that coming from? I'm not familiar with her.

0:41:53 Eiynah: I You know, I'm as baffled as you. The only thing that I can think it comes from is that, uh, we had like a private falling out because, because she had gotten annoyed with me before for criticizing Gad. Once Gad Saad had a, I don't know, three-, four-, five-day Twitter meltdown at me where he was hurling nonsensical abuse, just constantly.

0:42:16 Thomas: I I Don't know if people know. Is there a convenient way, has anyone storified that or whatever, like, is because It's Absurd.

0:42:26 Eiynah: There's a link of screenshots

0:42:28 Thomas: Like It Is unhinged. This is the reason I I don't, one of the many reasons I don't take Gad Sod seriously at all. Uh, also, he's just not, he doesn't, his opinions aren't interesting, and they're not, he's not very smart, but he, he literally just waged this unhinged attack at you for days. I don't know.

0:42:28 Eiynah: Here I can send you.

0:42:48 Eiynah: Why, You ask? Well It's only because, uh, emailed Jerry Coin about this one exchange between Nick Cohen, the British journalist who's fantastic, on, he, he called Gad out so brilliantly on Gad's podcast. Like, you've Gotta You've Got To See That So Yeah So, I just emailed Jeremy Coin, uh, and said, hey, you, you got to check this out. And Jerry's just like, hey, can I post your comments with a little link to this episode? 'Cause you're not the first person that's told me. And in those comments, I had just said that, you know, Gad tried to spin it like, oh, he's on the side of liberalism and, you know, he stands up and opposes all these far right lunatics as well. I'm like, that's not true because he repeatedly promotes white genociders and these like European far car riders. And I cited specific examples of people that he has. And that's it. That's it? I mean, so I'm making these accurate, observation based criticisms that I can back up with evidence.

0:43:08 Thomas: I'll have to check that out. I don't think I've seen that. Long

0:44:00 Eiynah: And they see that as a, you know, green light to just go insane at me, you know? Discredit my backstory, call me lobotomized buffoon, plumpy pineapples. Um, what else, queen of anti-Semites, I don't know where that came from. Well

0:44:16 Thomas: Story short, no, it's been rough. This is the weird position. This is the line you have to walk as an ex-Muslim, I guess. It's like if

0:44:26 Eiynah: An ex-Muslim that wants to stand up for liberal values even in the West. Like, if, if I don't stray from criticizing Islam and turn a blind eye to the crazies that are filtering into to our scene, um, then I'm fine. That is my assigned Duty.

0:44:44 Thomas: You pick a narrative that one side or the other can latch on to, you're kind of okay. But if you want to try your best to be fair and call out whichever side you think is going too far, then you're getting it from everywhere. I've Long said That the best business decision for me would just be to start harping about free speech and how white men are so oppressed. I'd make a billion dollars tomorrow. It really is easy. There's, because there's So Many Angry white men out there on the internet that back you up, like it's the numbers are crazy, yeah.

0:44:45 Eiynah: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. It Really Is Yeah, the Number. You're, you're fighting a losing battle no matter what They say how absurd it is, whatever lack of evidence they have for their crazy accusations. So after all this smear campaign with Lalo and, uh, Yasmin, she's the one that turned around and said, oh, Aina is like someone who likes to smear people, she's like, you know, just ignore her, that's what she does. And I'm sitting there with my jaw drawn, like, are you serious? You just, she posted a meme about how, um, oppression is so hot right now and how I'm probably just doing it, you know, because for popularity or some, I don't know, I just dabbled in it, right, and my life was like a five-star resort, so Uh, she's done all that to me, but I can simply not respond, otherwise I'm the smearer, I'm the one that's, you know, causing all this petty bullshit, apparently it's

0:45:24 Thomas: Yeah.

0:46:16 Thomas: So I think that for, uh, again, people who aren't familiar with this, you document a lot of this on your blog, right? Would that be A good place To point people to where they can kind of follow these storylines if they are interested In Them.

0:46:23 Eiynah: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I wrote a blog about Sharia light. It's just, it's absurd because you're championed as an ex-Muslim for criticizing Islam, and then the second that you also criticize certain, uh, ideas on the right in the West that are not okay, uh, like, you know, for example, Cernovich being a rape apologist and being promoted by Rubin or Douglas Murray.

0:46:31 Thomas: Yeah.

0:46:52 Thomas: Now, Cernovich is pretty disgusting, right? I mean, I think I saw, gosh, I don't remember if it was from you. It might've been from somebody else, but what, I mean you mentioned him. Talk about what you mean when you say he's a rape apologist.

0:46:52 Eiynah: Uh, Well, well, he's like, tweeted stuff like, hotter the sex is, the more it resembles rape. Date rape isn't real. Have you ever tried raping a girl without force?

0:47:16 Thomas: Oh yeah. That's what I saw. Yeah, that's right. He said date rape isn't real. Oh my gosh, this guy.

0:47:19 Eiynah: And he said something about, like, it being anti-rape, anti-rape game, game, like he's been like this creepy pickup artist type guy who, who wrote this article about, you know, when in doubt, whip it out, like if an Indian girl won't let you close the deal because they're too conservative, you just pull your dick out and you try jerking off on top of her or something. I don't, I don't know, something really gross like he's undoubtedly like gross creep and

0:47:21 Thomas: Oh. Yeah. Yeah.

0:47:44 Thomas: But But If you complain about someone promoting a gross creep, then your anti-free speech is the problem that you and I face, you more than me, yeah.

0:47:47 Eiynah: Yes. Yes. Well, I've been called a monster. I've been compared to Cernovich by someone defending Rubin. He said, you are the monster, you revile. You've turned into a Cernovich conspiracy theorist about Rubin. If you think Cernovich is crazy, then surely you think the guy promoting him as normal, as the part of the new center, is also wrong. Like, it's the strangest accusation to make at me. Like, this is basically a lesson in, um, a severe identity politics and tribalism coming from a group that, you know, supposedly is very against identity politics and tribalism.

0:47:58 Thomas: Yeah Oh.

0:48:41 Eiynah: You simply cannot criticize someone from the tribe. It doesn't matter how much evidence you have, how much, how insane what they're doing is, whether they're going on Alex Jones and criticizing the fucking mainstream media for being fake, fake news. Pizza

0:48:55 Thomas: The one that you pointed out to me the other day, which was, uh, I'm you know I've been trying to not, I've been trying stop with the Dave Rubin stuff because I think people get it, my listeners anyway. I think my listeners get it, but I can't help. Dave Rubin was, was taking a wait and see fucking attitude on Pizzagate. I literally, I tweeted the quote. You can see it. He was like, well, uh, you know, I, I people are, and by the way, if you notice in that quote, what he's saying is everyone, his listeners want him to talk about Pizzigate and he's responding. So give you an idea of who his listeners are, who his viewers are. Everyone is telling him, hey, talk about this. This is huge, like this Pizzagate thing. And his response was, I'm not, I's gonna wait and see. Maybe there's something there.

0:48:59 Eiynah: Gate this is so sinister Right. Yeah yeah

0:49:47 Thomas: His response was not, hey everyone, this is insane. Hillary and Podesta are not running a child sex trafficking ring in a pizza place, you fucking idiots. This is stupid. That's not his response.

0:49:59 Eiynah: But that's because Cernovich is the Cernich, you know, has been perpetuating this Pizzagate thing and Cern is his buddy. Like when Dave Rubin saw an article saying, uh, you know, Fox News hired, or Fox News who's booked a rape apologist, Dave Rubin didn't say, oh wow, that's fucked up. No, Dave Rubin tweeted, haha, you know, well maybe not haha, but he said, Mike Cernovich rattling cages, you know, like this isn't being a rape apologist, isn't like rattling fucking cages, it's disturbing. He's not just some edgy dude, that's you know, triggering regressives, so

0:50:04 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Yeah all right I feel like we need to stop bitching about people who aren't here but no we probably don't actually.

0:50:44 Eiynah: But Look, oh that. But that's another fucking point because I have asked time and time again, other people have repeatedly asked and you have asked and many other people have asked, even with bigger voices, but Dave Rubin is not interested in speaking to us. So doesn't mean that we cannot voice our concerns, because this is something that's, it's now getting really bad and toxic for the whole scene around criticizing Islam. It's causing an overlap in the atheist scene with some really, really bad folks. And it's, the instant reward that you get for being like this, oh, I don't care about your feelings, and oh, like, you know, I'm gonna make this terrible comment about

0:50:57 Thomas: Hold

0:51:32 Eiynah: Rape or something, is, you know, it's unmatched where we cannot fight that battle but

0:51:38 Thomas: It is yeah, it is a huge uphill battle yeah

0:51:40 Eiynah: Yeah so, so I mean, I think that more people need to start speaking up about it, especially if you care about making progress with criticism of Islam, you cannot, you cannot just let us all get lost in this bullshit, it, because all the voices

0:51:51 Thomas: Yeah I I would say, I believe in, my biggest thing now is criticize the left from the left. Criticize Islam if you need to from the right. Don't criticize Islam in lockstep with a bunch of really ugly people saying ugly things. Criticized Islam in in a way that doesn't that border on bigotry, you because you can like it's hard, but you know you can do it.

0:51:58 Eiynah: Right well look no these are not some slight, uh, these are not some, like, you know, confusing people that Dave Rubin brings on, these are people who are talking about white genocide elsewhere. They think immigration will cause white genocide. This is not the narrative that needs to be promoted in a Trumpian era.

0:52:34 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, anything else before we bring to a close that we should, uh, we should touch on? What do you think?

0:52:45 Eiynah: I just want, want to say that, uh, you know, this is a running theme in my life, that I have been told I'm not Pakistani enough because I grew up in Saudi Arabia. I have been, you know, the government of Saudi doesn't allow non-Saudis, like people that are not Saudi by blood, to have any rights there. So even if I was born there, raised there, um, you can't go back and act like that's your, your home. So I have, uh, been told that I'm not Canadian enough by, um, alt-right types who think that only white people are Canadians. And now I'm being told I'm not ex-Muslim enough because I didn't suffer enough under sharia. And you know, Muslim bigots tell me, always told me I wasn't Muslim enough because I question things, so this is just, this is just what people do. This

0:53:26 Thomas: Yeah. It's a, it's a tough corner that you're painted into. It really is. My sympathies and, uh, I do, do what I can to, to try to support you and I hope that my listeners do as well. You know, no one's, no one's above, you know, me, you, anybody. Nobody's above criticism, but it, I mean, these are, these are lies, obvious lies being spread about you that it clearly have no basis and no clean motives, and uh, it's all because you tried to, you're, you're trying to speak out against what's becoming way too common in, in the left, uh, and this, this center, I guess, this alleged new center, which is enabling the alt-right and enabling some really ugly views. So

0:54:16 Eiynah: This alleged news center contains people, um, who used to identify as alt-right thank you for the support it's

0:54:20 Thomas: Exactly. It's Coincidence? Yeah. Anything I can do. And yeah, listeners, definitely check out your blog. Remind us the URL there. I'll have it in the show notes as well.

0:54:32 Eiynah: nicemangos.blogspot.com, and no eaten mangoes. Uh, one thing I, I wanted to add before I go is that there there has been this, you know, really tragic event with this Saudi woman called Dina Ali. And there's a whole hashtag called Save Dina. I encourage everyone to get on there and, you Know, keep the pressure up. She was trying to escape and get asylum in Australia. She Was stopped in the Philippines and dragged off by her uncles. I think just something really horrific. I hope that she's safe and that she gets out and that her Her family knows there are people looking out for her, so they can't just do anything to her. But this tragedy was used in the worst way in our own skeptical, rational, so-called circles to shit on Western feminists. There were people who were saying that, you know, I'm a rape victim from the West. And they were told, well, at least you weren't stoned to death for your rape, or at leastyou weren't forced to marry a rapist.

0:54:37 Thomas: Hmm. Sure. Sure. Oh, yeah.

0:55:30 Eiynah: So, you know, whatever, like Western feminists do nothing, you know, just, in the worst ways, like I'm going to step on Western feminist privileged to say that they don't, you know, really contribute to causes like Dina Ali. And I'm here as a male trying to tell you that, you know, you should support Dina Ali, but I'm going to shit on Western feminist. This is just not a helpful attitude as someone who's a feminist, who's got one foot in both worlds. I've got to say please don't, you know, pit these things against each other. Women's rights are something, uh, that should be worked towards across the globe, and just because someone isn't suffering from being stoned to death doesn't mean that their experiences, or that Western feminism as a whole is just this frivolous silly thing that doesn't have anything important to work towards, especially in at a time where we have, you know, a self-professed sexual predator in one of the most powerful seats and, you Know, he's threatening women's reproductive laws and things like that. It's just very, very bad to use this.

0:56:25 Thomas: Yeah.

0:56:36 Thomas: I totally agree with that. Well put. The idea that if things aren't literally as bad here as in, you know, Saudi or something, then women need to shut up. It's absurd. I don't get it. That's something that Gad does to an insane degree. And it's ugly. Ugly. I don't like it at all. But like you said, you can simultaneously raise awareness of To things like Dina Ali and also support the fight against theocrats that are currently in power right now in the US, taking away women's reproductive productive rights, and take it, you know, it's not hard, it's not hard to do both, so Well Put

0:56:51 Eiynah: Yeah, Dean exactly. Yeah. Yeah so we gotta we gotta stick out for liberal principles.

0:57:17 Thomas: Absolutely Well, thanks for doing so, and I encourage people to check out Polite Conversations if they haven't already, and thanks so much for coming on, I know already

0:57:29 Eiynah: Well, thank you for having me on.

0:57:54 Thomas: Alright, that's it for today's show. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you most of all to my patrons over at patreon.com/seriouspod. You're the ones who make the show happen. I love each and every one of you. That's all until Thursday when I'll have a nice fresh new Serious Pod commentary coming at you then. I'll talk to you then, have a good week.