SIO1: Chris Shelton; No Longer Atheistically Speaking

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. That's right, Serious Inquiries Only. The name is changed. I know it didn't sound like that in the beginning. I'm your host Thomas Smith. This is episode number one.

0:00:43 Thomas: So, the transition is still a little awkward, there's some things that take longer than other things, uh, there's some, and that's, there's not, it can't be helped, like, certain things, like, Facebook won't allow me to change the page name without, like, a review process, so that's a pain, uh, I couldn't get my voiceover gal to re-record the voiceover at the beginning on short notice, so that'll be done very soon, but I, actually, uh, the reason, another reason I haven't done that is, someone said they wanted me to not get rid of, not change the the intro music, and I'm just curious if anyone else had an opinion on that.

I was thinking maybe I would change it. Maybe I would do a new song or something, but let me know what you think about that. But, uh, the, on iTunes it should be different, on your podcast, if you're seeing this right now, it should, the logo should be different, the name should be different, uh, important things to note, if you want to follow me on Twitter, which you should, it's now at SeriousPod, so, that's a little, little easier, I think, actually, so, same account,

0:01:41 Thomas: Uh, you know, I, all, if you were already following me, you're still following me, but, uh, now it's at SeriousPod. And the Facebook as well should be Facebook.com/SeriousPod and the website is SeriousPod.com and it's a little naked right now, still being built, but it has a lot of the good stuff and it will have much more very soon. The only thing that I'm a little unsure on is patreon.com, because as you know, it's patreon.com/atheist, it always has been, I do think I need to change that, but I'm a little hesitant just yet, because I think it might change the Patreon RSS, so I want to give you guys a heads up, and I'm a little worried what I'm going to do there, but, so, that'll be changed, it'll all be changed eventually, but that one I just was hesitant because I don't want to mess everybody's URL, like, RSS up before releasing this episode, so I would want to give them a heads up, which I am now.

0:02:38 Thomas: So it's possible it'll change the URL. I'm not sure. If it does, hopefully it'll email you. I don't know if Patreon is used to dealing with this, but we'll figure it out together. But serious inquiries only. Welcome to the show, episode one. And we've got a great one for you. Chris Shelton, you may remember him from back in Atheistically Speaking days. He was a Scientologist for years years and years and years.

He was all the way up in the Sea Org, worked very hard for them, slave labor practically for very little money. And interesting story. I've talked for hours with Chris. He's a wealth of knowledge on Scientology. Well, a mutual friend.

Travis Peterson sent me a message saying that Chris was now the subject, the target, of like a hate page by the Church of Scientology, which is so cool, it's kind of a little badge of honor, and it's true, if you go, I'll put it in the show notes just for fun, there's a little, you'll find a link, and it's a hate page all about Chris Shelton, it's got his ex-wife on there, just incredibly weird to imagine that, And having known him and a little bit about his story, it was even more weird to see like, whoa, this is the guy that I've talked to before who now speaks out against the church. Now he's got a hate page. So I thought, you know what? It's been about a year since we've talked to Chris. Let's catch up. And catch up we did, and we made a great recording. So I hope you enjoy it. And first guest ever on Serious Inquiries Only. So there you go. Here's Chris Shelton.

0:04:14 Thomas: Joining me right now for, I believe, the third time, I think, is Chris Shelton. How you doing, Chris?

0:04:20 Chris: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on, asking me to come on again.

0:04:24 Thomas: Oh, absolutely. You know, I noticed it looks like it's been, I don't know, around a year since the last... I feel like we're doing a once-a-year check-in. That's kind of... that's good.

0:04:29 Chris: Yep. There you go. There you go.

0:04:34 Thomas: Yes, you know, it's funny. Our mutual friend me a Facebook message saying that you've got yourself your very own hit piece now, like your very own hit uh what would you call it kind of hit site I guess hate page, okay, there you go, right.

0:04:45 Chris: Yep. Yep. Well, we call it a hate page. That's what we call it. Yeah, the day after I was on Leah Remini's show, the Church of Scientology pulled the trigger, and clearly they had prepped this uh before the show because they have a um a well-produced four-minute video from my ex-wife uh trashing me and uh all kinds of nonsense.

0:04:58 Thomas: Oh. Wow, well, Yeah.

0:05:16 Chris: So yeah.

0:05:18 Thomas: Before we get into it, I, that was what I saw, and I was like, wow, this is cool. I, you know, I don't, you might be the first person I know, you know, that where I was like, hey, look, it's a hate page of this guy I know. Um, so uh but but. But just for new listeners, and I'm sure we've had lots of new listeners since then, would you mind giving us the, I don't know, the five-minute version of your story, which is really fascinating?

0:05:27 Chris: I have My story, for sure.

0:05:41 Thomas: And then I will go ahead and tell them to please reference the, I'll link in the show notes your previous episodes that has the not five-minute version. But just to catch everybody up real quick.

0:05:42 Chris: Sure. Yeah.

0:05:52 Chris: Sure, I was a Scientologist for 27 years, and three years ago I got out of it, um, actually four years ago. I actually worked for the organization. I wasn't just a member. And from the time I was 17 years old, right out of high school, until I was, 43, 44, something like that? Anyway, about just a few years ago. And I left working for the organization, but I still believed in Scientology, and that lasted for, oh, I don't know, about six months, because I got on the internet, found out what Scientology was really all about, which I had not done the whole time I was in, because it's a no-no to do that. So I was denied a lot of information that I otherwise should have had in order to make an informed decision about what Scientology really was all about, out.

0:06:43 Thomas: Yeah.

0:06:43 Chris: And having worked inside the bubble world of Scientology and there's a lot of information control there, I was dedicated to trying to make the world a better place. And that's what we were doing is that's we thought we were doing was really that's the message is you're saving the world. So we worked really hard to do that. And after a while, I got pretty disillusioned with trying to save the world and not, not being very happy personally. So I said, okay, I want to stop working for it. But I'm gonna, I'm going to do Scientology. And then, you know, once I got on the internet and found out that L. Ron Hubbard was a con man, David Miscavige beats his staff, this, it's all about money. It's not about saving people. I was like, wow, my life was just I was just taken advantage of for a very long time.

0:07:31 Chris: That doesn't feel good. I Was extremely upset. And I started speaking out against it. And basically I haven't stopped. And so that pissed the church off because they don't like it when people do that. They, they have this aversion to the truth about themselves. So, um, they declared me a suppressive person, right? What an SP and which was their version of a bad person.

0:07:39 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:07:55 Chris: And, uh, that means that they disconnect connect you from all Scientologists. And I had friends and people I had known for 20 years who overnight cut ties with me because the church told them to. And this included losing, had been married when I was in the Sea Org. I divorced my wife when I left and I had a fiance and I was going to, and she was a Scientologist and her whole family, I was very connected up with them And they just dropped me like a bad habit, you know, just instantly, not because I had done anything to them, but because Scientology told them to. And so that, of course, you know, was the incentive for me

0:07:55 Thomas: You know,

0:08:34 Chris: To speak even harder.

0:08:34 Thomas: Let me ask you something that I don't know if I asked you before. Did you ever consider just trying to go along with it for the sake of your fiancé and the family? Did you ever entertain the notion of, you know, maybe I'll just kind of pretend? I Yeah.

0:08:37 Chris: Yeah. I, you know, I have, I did try that. Now,

0:08:49 Thomas: And

0:08:50 Chris: I haven't, I haven't really discussed that part in a lot of detail. But, but this was all this All of this went down in 2013, and so I left the Sea Org, and I was cooperating with the Sea Org who was telling me, because of where I was and whatnot, that I—let me back up, sorry. They don't like ex-Sea Org members. If you're in the Sea Organization, which is the elite of Scientology, and you leave your Your persona non grata. You're not a suppressive person, but they want you to just kind of disappear for a while and just kind of like, you know, wait for all the upset over the fact that you left to simmer down.

0:09:33 Thomas: Can you remind me how exclusive of a little group is that, the Sea Org? Like, how many people are we talking?

0:09:34 Chris: About 5,000 people worldwide. Yeah. I had been involved with the Sea Org. I'd been in a part of it for 17 years. So when I left, yeah, well, pretty much.

0:09:41 Thomas: Okay. Okay. And if I remember right, it's basically slave labor, right? Like, it's just... Yeah.

0:09:51 Chris: I mean, it's very dedicated work. And, and they pay you like, you know, 40, 45 bucks a week. So, you know, they're paying for your room, they paying for your board, the uniform, you that sort of thing. It's very paramilitary, and it's very kind of weird. But when you're involved in it, you think that you're part of this core group and really the attitude and I mentioned this to another person one time, the attitude is kind of like you think you're, you know, part of the Jedi Knights or something. You know, that's that's the attitude that they have amongst themselves. They're, they're the elite little core group of people who are, who have secret knowledge and information and they are, and they are working their guts out to save the world.

0:09:53 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:10:35 Chris: That's what they really think. So, so yeah, it's harsh, it's hard. It is, there was, there's, there were periods of time in the Sea Org that were very, very rough. There is physical labor involved in that sort of thing. So from from an outside perspective, it's pretty crazy. You know, when you're in it, you're thinking, yeah, I'm making a lot of sacrifices. I'm not having kids. I's not having a family. I' not, you know, going to the movies every weekend. But I'm doing all this good for the world, you know.

0:10:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:11:04 Chris: And that's an important thing to understand.

0:11:04 Thomas: So it's sort of like you taking advantage of the goodwill of the people. It's sort of like you join the Peace Corps or something and you're thinking, well, I'm going to sacrifice stuff to kind of make the world a better place. But, yeah.

0:11:09 Chris: That's exactly what they're doing. Yes. That' right. That's exactly what it is. And they are taking advantage of those people. It is it is horrible how badly they are taking advantage of them.

0:11:25 Thomas: Do you have any guess as to, like, how many people are like you? Like, how many people, you know, 5,000. Do you have any guess as to how many people have gotten out of that organization?

0:11:35 Chris: Yeah, I the numbers are actually something like five or six for every one Sea Org member that's in right now. There's five or 6 other people who are who have gone in and left. Yeah. It's had a pretty interesting rotation.

0:11:45 Thomas: Wow. Okay. Okay. So it's, so it's got a

0:11:48 Chris: Over the years oh yes very much so yeah and

0:11:49 Thomas: Bit of a turnover then. Okay. Cause people just get burned out and just can't do it anymore.

0:11:53 Chris: Uh well that's exactly what happens and there's... there's people who either tend to burn out fast or slow, and I'm, I was one of the slow ones, unfortunately, so um,

0:11:57 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:07 Thomas: But, but getting back to it. So you did consider to maybe go along with it.

0:12:07 Chris: Yeah, So Well, What Happened Was Because, yeah, when you leave, they, you know, they have a chip on their shoulder about you. So they were not letting me.

0:12:17 Thomas: Like, are they worried you have all their secrets or something? Like you're going to kind of spill the beans or what, what is it?

0:12:22 Chris: No, no, no. You turned your back on them. You left. You're a bad person. How could you?

0:12:25 Thomas: Okay. So nobody can do it. So they don't even They guilt you even if you're like, hey, you know, even if you were, all due respect, I love the organization. I just, I can't quite, you know, handle the workload anymore. Like even that, they don't, they're not, they guilt you about?

0:12:40 Chris: No, that's exactly right. They think that, well, here's the thing. We're getting pretty into this, but here's how this goes. L. Ron Hubbard said that if you leave the Sea Organization or if you leave Scientology at all, it's only because of your own personal moral transgressions against the group. And that's the only reason you can leave. It can't be for any other reason. That's what they think. Now, you can have surface reasons for why you're leaving, but they don't really believe that. They believe you're living because you're a bad person.

0:12:43 Thomas: Wow. Yeah. You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of how some Christians and other religions, they always think that atheists actually believe in God. It's just, you know, if they say they don't, it's that they're actually, they're sinning and they want to just cover for their sin or something like that. That reminds me of that. It's like a thought crime thing. Yeah.

0:13:31 Chris: That's right. Exactly. So they tend to look down on and treat badly people who were once in the group and then leave. And that's how I was being treated. Now, that was bad enough. And I was trying to get on with my life and trying to make a life for myself. And then I, you know, I'd had this relationship with this woman who was a staff member for Scientology. This was all in Twin Cities, Minnesota. And they weren't letting me go into the church. They weren't let me do the things that I was, you should be able to do as a Scientologist. I couldn't do services. I couldn't move on. And so this was kind of creating some upset. She didn't understand this. This was kind of a Sea Org thing. And it didn't make a lot of sense because it doesn't make any sense. And this is what kind of got me onto the internet was like, well, why is this going on?

0:13:41 Thomas: Okay.

0:14:29 Chris: What's going on with Scientology? Why is this? And I'd already seen some things on the net, But I had no idea, no idea how bad, how far down that rabbit hole the truth went. And so once I started finding that out, I, and it took about three months of staying up like really late at night, you know, for months, just like, oh, my God, I can't believe all this. I was very upset, you Know, to say the least. And I, still wanted to maintain this relationship. I had moved across the country to be with this woman. I was very serious about it. I'd asked her to marry me. I mean, this was a big deal. And yet here was this conflict with Scientology is not what I thought it was. And now I've got this really big problem. Problem.

0:15:14 Chris: But I was so wanting to keep the relationship and keep it going and wanting to make my life go the way I wanted it to go that I decided, okay, I'm going to stay in good graces with the church. But at the same time, I was still pissed at what they had done to me, that I was anonymously speaking up on the internet about them. The church figured out who I was and they busted me because they watch and monitor the internet and they watch critics and that sort sort of thing. So I was then given a choice, or, you know, presented with this, and like, you know, you need to stop doing this, Chris, and you need to, you know, do these steps that we're telling you to do. And I said, okay, I will do those steps. And I started working on them. And this was around October of 2013 that this all went down.

0:16:02 Chris: I met with a couple church officials who came came out to Minnesota to meet with me about this. And they said, you're going to do these steps. And I said, okay, I will do that. And I'll stop posting on the internet and I'll be a good boy. And I won't talk to, you know, I won't go into the church, but I'll do these steps with you guys. AndI will get back in good graces, even though I don't care about Scientology anymore. Andi don't want to really, really want to have anything to do with it. I'm connected with this family and this woman who are, and I'm going to roll with this. And their response to my attempt to cooperate and do those steps that they were demanding I do was to disconnect her and her whole family from me.

0:16:47 Chris: And that was the final straw because I was like, okay, I tried to play ball. I tried To do what you guys wanted. I was going to be a good chicken, none of this would have happened. I wouldn't be talking to you right now. I'd still be living in Minnesota. I would have paid the church all kinds of money. I jump through all kinds of hoops for them in order to keep what I had. Instead, they said, nope, can't even have that. They did a whole thing with her, and they made her not talk to me anymore.

0:17:20 Thomas: But did she ever talk to you about that? I mean, how do they just make your...

0:17:23 Chris: No, she wouldn't. And they did a whole, this is the level of mind control in Scientology, is they sat her down and they said, Chris, you're, you know, this person is a horrible, awful person who's been attacking the church, and you cannot talk to him anymore. And if you do, we'll disconnect you from your whole family. That was the choice she was given, is your family and friends and everybody you know or Chris. That's how it goes down.

0:17:48 Thomas: So it was just one day it was done. You never talked to her again?

0:17:50 Chris: Yes. She Wrote me a letter. I, I, without, you know, trying to respect her wishes, yet at the same time trying to have a discussion with her about it, I tried to find her, you know, and talk to her twice. Both times she looked right at me, turned her back and walked away. That's the level of control, and that's the emotional and, and quite real blackmail that they hold over their members. Is she was given, and that's Sophie's choice, of your family and friends or the man you love, right? And she, of course, chose her family and friend. I mean, it's understandable, but it's not right. You know, the fact that she was made to be put in that position was awful. And that's how Scientology operates, right. And so that all happened in December of 2013.

0:18:41 Chris: I got the letter, you know, know, it was devastating to me. Then I tried to, you know, talk to her. She wouldn't talk to me, and that was it. At that point, I had absolutely nothing to lose by speaking out against Scientology, and that's how they make their own enemies. I was totally cooperating with them. I Was doing exactly what they wanted me to do.

0:18:53 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. So in answer to the question, I guess you would have done that. You would have just kind of been like a casual, I don't know, Catholic or something where you're just like, ah, whatever. Do kind of go through the motions.

0:19:11 Chris: Yeah, yeah, I wasn't going to do any more Scientology services. I knew it was a farce. But I was going to cooperate. I was gonna do all the things they wanted done. Nope, not good enough. And that was that. And so, yeah.

0:19:15 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Yeah. They made themselves an enemy. Me. So ever since then, I know you've been battling, you've been speaking out. Catch us up in the last year, I suppose, since last time we talked. I know you were writing Scientology A to Xenu.

0:19:31 Chris: Yep. Yeah, that book got published last December.

0:19:40 Thomas: Awesome.

0:19:40 Chris: And it's been great. It's a critical analysis of the subject. That's why I called it A to Xenu, because it really is all about Scientology. It's not my story, so to speak. It's just, here's what Scientology is. Here's where it comes from. Here's who L. Ron Hubbard is. Here's some of the nonsense, the pseudoscience that they push and how it works. Here's why they have tax exemption. There's a whole chapter on that. Here's what those OT levels and the whole Xenu story is. All of that is in one chapter. And it's a lot more than just what you saw on South Park. And

0:19:47 Thomas: Yeah, it's a good title.

0:20:18 Thomas: Would you mind, I'm interested in the tax exemption thing. Would you mind giving us a little bit of a preview into that particular chapter of the book?

0:20:24 Chris: Absolutely. Um, the Church of Scientology was founded in 1953 as a church, and it gained tax exemption, I think, by 55 or 56. So it was officially recognized as a religion by the IRS, and with and that's a different thing than being recognized in the courts that takes legal cases, and that happened also in the 50s or 60s, too. But by 1967, the IRS investigated the Church of Scientology, and L. Ron Hubbard specifically, because things were suspicious and not quite above boards, and they found that Hubbard was personally profiting to the tune of the equivalent now of millions of dollars in profits.

0:21:10 Chris: And they said, yeah, no. And and they revoked the church's tax-exempt status. And there were a lot of legal battles going on in the early and mid-1960s about this. The FDA raided the Church of Scientology in Washington, D.C. There was all kinds of hubbub about this when they revoke the tax-extent status. That was a big deal. And then the Hubbard's thing was, well, we're not paying taxes anyway. Way. Screw those guys. And they didn't pay any taxes and they continued to fight in court over this. And this went on for a very long time until, well, usually you don't.

However, the Church of Scientology is extremely litigious and they've also amassed, you know, quite a bit of money. Now, they were really on the ropes, though, because through the 70s, they got, you Know, There was that whole raid with the FBI coming in, and 11 people went to jail over that, including L. Ron Hubbard's wife. So the 70s were not a good time for Scientology. However, they were still growing during this time period. While they had all these legal entanglements, the 60s and 70s was a big growth period. L. Ronald Hubbard dies in 1986. David Miscavige takes over, and tax exemption is front and center on what needs to be handled.

0:21:51 Thomas: Boy, usually you don't win that battle. That's an interesting thing.

0:22:41 Chris: Something that, I'll give you one little tidbit, is something that people don't know generally is that in L. Ron Hubbard's will, there was a clause in there or a condition in there that the trademarks of Dianetics and Scientology could only be turned over from his estate to an organization or corporation that was tax exempt. And the Church of Scientology was not tax exempt in 1986 when L. Ron Hubbard died. So this was a real problem, right? Because they didn't even have the trademos for all the stuff they were using. Of course, they didn't broadcast. Hardly anybody knows about this.

0:23:26 Chris: But this was a thing they had, and they also were accumulating more and more and more debt to the IRS because they weren't paying anything, right? They just kept fighting these legal battles. So they brought their resources to bear, and I and I lay out in detail how and how they went about doing that. And they took the fight to the IRS. And the fact of the matter is that they, the IRS say boo. They took it all the way to them, and they wore out the IRS, and they got them to capitulate and

0:23:25 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, So,

0:23:59 Chris: Agree to give them tax status.

0:23:59 Thomas: They got their exemption back. What year was that? Wow.

0:24:02 Chris: 1993.

0:24:03 Thomas: I assume they negotiated back taxes and didn't have to pay. Wow.

0:24:06 Chris: They did. They only had to pay a few million. They had accumulated a tax debt of something on the order of a billion dollars or something. I mean, it was enough that it was going to destroy the church. It was life or death for them. And that's why they invested every resource they had into every pressure point they could bring to bear until they got the IRS to capitulate. Yeah, yeah.

0:24:07 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, too, too bad. They would have been gone by the time if yeah, do

0:24:37 Chris: Well, it really is too bad. And there's been a lot of scrutiny about the IRS commissioner and why he gave in, and was there blackmail involved, and that sort of thing. And I talk in that chapter about why I don't believe that's what happened. I think – well, I think it's exactly what I just said. They brought enough legal pressure and PR pressure against the IRS that they couldn't deal with it. There were something like over 1,000 or 1,200 individual lawsuits being brought by individual Scientology parishioners against the IRS. The IRS only has so much money in its legal budget to fight these battles every year. And when you have one group or organization wearing out your legal budget by bringing all these lawsuits that you have to address, you can't just ignore them, wears down your resources. And while the IRS is considered this vast, monolithic, the full power of the United States government behind its sort of thing, when you get down to the brass tacks,

0:24:55 Thomas: You have a theory yeah,

0:25:52 Chris: It's a corporation or an organization that only has so much money and resources and people working for it that it's only going to do so much. So when some group or, you know, like the Church of Scientology is bringing it, they have to make a decision, how much longer are we going to fight this? And this battle had gone from 1967 all the way to 91 when Miscavige, David Miscaveige, and his lawyers actually started meeting with the IRS commissioner personally and working out this deal. And it took them two years and a lot of back and forth hammer that deal out of.

And course, one last thing I'll say, because I do want people to read my book, but one last thing I will say about this is the Church of Scientology lied through their teeth to the IRS about the nature of their own organization and how they operate. So the IRS gave them tax exemption based on a pack of lies given to the IRS by the Church of Scientology about themselves. So, and I detail some of the biggest lies that they told, and I use the actual documents that are available as to what questions the IRS was asking the church and how the church responded to those questions.

0:26:35 Thomas: Sure, yeah, yeah, Well, people have to check that out in Scientology to Xenu if they want. Thanks for giving us that little preview, though. That's an interesting story. So do we get to the point of you having your very own hate page? It looks like you got involved with Leah Romini.

0:27:27 Chris: OK, so I did. What happened was I've been, you know, doing my my thing and I talk critical thinking on my channel. I talk Scientology. I've talked about a couple other destructive cults and groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses and guy Bill Gothard and his group. I interviewed somebody who was a cult survivor from that group. Then Leah Remini and I actually have quite a bit in common as to how and when we got out of Scientology, how, you know, what we did when we were in it. But, of course, she was a celebrity. She went the celebrity route when she was a kid. I didn't, right?

0:28:06 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, you picked a different route.

0:28:09 Chris: Well, I mean, but she was in the Sea Org. I mean.

0:28:09 Thomas: Oh, she was? I was going to say, because you had said, I remember I asked you last time about how the celebrities are kind of sheltered, right? They're usually shown a totally different version of the religion, quote unquote, whatever, the cult, whatever.

0:28:13 Chris: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's right.

0:28:26 Thomas: So, but she was actually in the Sea Org. That is, that's interesting. Why?

0:28:27 Chris: She was. Yeah. When she was a kid.

0:28:32 Thomas: Oh, when she was a kid? Oh, but

0:28:34 Chris: Yeah, her mother got involved when she was a kid, they all moved down to Clearwater. They all joined the Sea Org, her, her sister and her mother. And they were down at Flag and Clearwater and the Sea Og. And this was in the 80s. And they, you know, kind of hated it and they ended up getting out and they moved to LA. And that's That's when Leah started pursuing an acting career and she actually made it. And that's and that was the path she she went. I also.

0:29:04 Thomas: That's interesting. How long was she a Scientologist still? Because you said earlier that when you leave the Sea Org, you know, that's not good. They don't like it. How did that go for her?

0:29:14 Chris: Well, she she was a kid. Right. I mean, she was like 15 or 16 and they moved across the country. In the 1980s, when she left the Sea Org, it was not that it wasn't like there was a stigma there, but it wasn't exactly the same thing. David Miscavige has made Scientology much worse in tone and attitude than it was back in the 70s and 80s under Hubbard. And it wasn't like it was all dandelions and butterflies under Hubbard. It's just, it's gotten worse in a number of ways. And that's one of them.

0:29:16 Thomas: Right. A little different. Okay.

0:29:55 Thomas: Okay.

0:29:55 Chris: That attitude toward ex-CEORG members, it was a bit more accepting, I guess is a word I could use. News, it's a little hard to explain. But in this particular instance, with this particular thing, this subject of XC org, there wasn't quite as much stigma back in the 80s as there is now. Let's put it that way. So, yeah.

0:30:19 Thomas: So they were still in good standing and everything, like her and her family, okay?

0:30:23 Chris: And I was in good standing, too, until I started speaking out. But they just expected me to just kind of disappear for a little while. Mile. So we both got out around the same time. June 2013 is when she broke from the church, which was the same Time I was going down the internet rabbit hole and having all my problems. She started speaking out. I started speaking Out. So then she decides that she's going to do this TV show. And I know Mike Rinder, the person she's doing the show with, and other people that she's interviewed and talked to, I have also talked to and been in touch with. So when it came time for them to their Reddit Q&A episode, well, I do a Q&H show every week where I answer questions questions about Scientology. And their production team was familiar with my work, I came to find out.

0:30:32 Thomas: Right.

0:31:21 Chris: And because I am, you know, fairly prominent on YouTube, if you Google Scientology, my name does come up. So they were using my information as a source for their show. And so my name came up on the list of people to have on the show to answer questions. And that's how they reached out out to me. And that's how I got connected up with the show. And they had me on, what was that, a week and a half ago, the day after.

0:31:29 Thomas: Yeah, wow.

0:31:51 Thomas: And then you were saying earlier, as soon as that happened, this page popped up, huh? Wow.

0:31:59 Chris: And It's pretty obvious that they had prepped this page before. They had all the information all set up and everything. I mean, I've been a critic of the church for three years, and they haven't been ignoring me this whole time. But it takes me, know, me getting my face in front of millions of people on TV before they decide that they need to put something public up about me, you know.

0:31:59 Thomas: How?

0:32:22 Thomas: Creepy. Is that, though, that they had all that ready? Isn't, is that a weird feeling for you? It's got to be, they just had this, this, this whole thing like kind of prepped, ready to go. That's crazy.

0:32:22 Chris: Oh. My God, it Was, it was. And the creepiest thing about it, of course, is that my ex-wife, who, you know, I was married to for 17 years when I was in the C-Org, you know, her trash talking me and stuff was pretty disturbing, you know, it wasn't fun to see it but but I knew it was coming because, you know, of course it's going to come. I'm, I've been an outspoken critic for a long time. And actually, I mean, in a way it's kind of a badge of honor really, you now, and, and that's how I've kind of been treating it because I, I decided to kind of get in front of it. Right. I tweeted out that this had happened and I, and I, you know, put this up on Facebook and said, and said hey, guess what? Guess what Scientology gave me for Christmas.

0:32:44 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:33:13 Chris: So I got nothing but support. I mean, just tons of people responding to this. And in fact, on the show, it was funny. You know, I was sitting there waiting to go in to talk to Leah and Mike on camera. And that was when it actually hit me. I actually realized, oh, this is going to put me on TV. The church is definitely going to put something up on me now. You know, like there was a little bit of a, oh, this is really going to happen. And when I went and sat down and we talked, and it was funny to me that this made it into the show, Leah and Mike said, you know, you're going to get a page now.

0:33:42 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, really?

0:33:57 Chris: Yeah, we talk about it on the show. And I thought, you know... And they were like, yeah, this was our gift to you for being on the shows.

0:33:57 Thomas: Oh, that's great. Wow.

0:34:05 Chris: So, there you go.

0:34:05 Thomas: Well, I suppose one benefit If there, you know, if there is such a thing of the fact that they cut you off so much from anyone in Scientology, is that it's almost like, who does this matter to? The You people who might be susceptible to this kind of hit piece or this information on this page, for the most part, they're already going to be Scientologists anyway, right? So they've already, I'm sure they already, you know, have cut you off and have their opinions of you. So I hope, I guess, what I'm saying is I kind of hope that anyone who matters in your life now, post Scientology, hopefully, you know, that this won't matter to them at all, I'm assuming. So I

0:34:44 Chris: Well, it certainly won't. No, these webpages and sites and the things that Scientology issues universally are for Scientologists. Well

0:34:46 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, This is just for like someone who, they're just hoping for the next time someone like you goes and maybe gets on the internet when they're not supposed to, maybe they, they check this first and they're like, okay, never mind, it's fine.

0:35:09 Chris: That's what they do. Scientology actually gives out links to their members to these pages. So if somebody comes in and says, hey, you know, Leah Remini's got this show, what gives, right? And this is what Scientologists are expected to do is they're expected to go into their church and say, hey I saw this thing on the internet or on media or whatever and I didn't know about this, this doesn't sound good. And they're all prepped. The church is all preipped with all these documents and information and a file. It's called a dead agent pack. And they put these things together on all their enemies, on all the people who speak out against Scientology. And it's only enemies as far as they're concerned. I don't think the Church of Scientology is my enemy.

0:35:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:35:55 Chris: I don't think about it that way. But they do. And they put these dead agent packs together of all these horrible, bad things that, you know, about their critics. And, they give them to, and they give it to Scientologists if they ask about these people. And I say, well, look at what a bad person this is. This is why you shouldn't be listening to them. Right? And that's, that's the strategy. It's

0:36:14 Thomas: Is Is there anything from this that really bugged you, that you really felt you needed to correct the record on, or, or is, in your view, is it just fabrications? What, what did you think about that?

0:36:28 Chris: There's Enough exaggerations, half truths and outright blatant lies on that page that I'm, I've decided I'm not even going to go there, because it's, it's just, it's giving that too much importance. And, I just don't feel it's necessary because they, it's kind of like this. It's kind of like, would a celebrity take on the National Enquirer? You know, pretty rarely that happens, right? But more often than not, you just ignore it.

0:36:39 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:58 Thomas: But to be fair, let me push back a little bit. How often does the National Inquirer have your ex-wife or someone's ex-wife saying things, you know, a personal testimonial that's not quite, you know, like, uh, what, what is it, lizard man, or that gives birth to lizard baby or something, whatever it's, it, I mean, it's, it's a little little different when this is the person you were married to for so long is making these accusations, right?

0:37:00 Chris: Sure. It is not because she's a Sea Org member. And what you don't see necessarily in that video are off-camera the symbolic machine guns that are pointed at her to say those things. If she did not cooperate with doing that, she would be in, let's just say, under a great deal of pressure. The point where she would being threatened with disconnection. By disconnection, I mean losing all of her friends. Her mother is a Scientologist at the highest levels of the church. In other words, she's OT8, right? She's got a lot of—her whole life she's been in Scientology. So she's under pressure to cooperate and do what the church asks her to do.

0:37:30 Thomas: Is is that your feeling about it? I was going to ask, like, do you think, it's, it's got to be tough to speculate, but at the same time, this has got to be someone, you know, very well. I mean, that's a lot of years.

0:38:23 Chris: Quite well.

0:38:24 Thomas: I mean, do you, do you think she knows she's telling lies or do you think it's, you're presenting it as sort of like a hostage situation in some ways, but I was wondering what your opinion on that is. Like, do you think she's kind of started to believe those things? What would be your guess

0:38:41 Chris: The things that she said were exaggerations and half-truths. The blatant lies were written by the church on the page. Okay. She, you know, had, could justify in her own mind why it is okay to say the things that she said. For example, she says, I'm horrible with money. Okay. Well, that's an accusation, I guess. And during the first half of our marriage, yeah, sure. I was not great with money, you know.

0:38:49 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That one was a little puzzling. It's like, okay. Yeah, he's not good with money, sure, yeah.

0:39:13 Chris: Well, I mean, we fought about money. I mean that's what married couples do, right? And so that was an issue with us. Now, we were both making at most $45 a week, That's not in there. That – that's why I say there's a half-truth there. They don't tell you that, you know, they make this accusation that I'm not, you know, paying child support to a son that I have in Australia. Well, they're not telling you that they were paying me $45 a week. And that was at best, So how am I supposed to be paying child support when that's what my income is? You know, and there were many, many, many weeks of quarter pay, half pay, no pay. I mean, if I was going to average it out, I'd say I was making $20 a week, right?

0:39:16 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:39:46 Thomas: How Are you even

0:40:03 Chris: This is how much money they're giving me.

0:40:03 Thomas: Surviving at that point? Yeah.

0:40:04 Chris: Well, they feed you and they clothe you and they birth you, right. So this is what you use to got by socks and underwear and laundry detergent. And that's how you survive. It's a very Spartan existence. It is not a normal existence. Being in the Sea Org is not a nine-to-five job. It is a 24-7 job. I was routinely woken up at, you know, three in the morning to go deal with some emergency or problem that somebody had. I would routinely be up until three or four in the morning all the time. I mean, it was a crazy, crazy, crazy situation. It's not comparable to pretty much anything, thing, so, so that's the existence that I had, but they don't, that, you know, when they present this hate page on you, you know, they make it seem like you're living this normal life and doing all these horrible things, but it's a hat, it's, it's an exaggeration and a half-truth, you see. It's not that way at all.

0:40:14 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:03 Thomas: It's interesting so their Storyline, Kind of like you referenced at, um, the beginning of the episode when you talked about anyone who leaves the C-Org can't hack it, for, you know, moral reasons or something like that, there's something wrong with their morality. That seems to be the, the storyline they're going with on this too. It's, it's that, uh, it's just a smear on, you know, you couldn't live up, up to the, the, yeah,

0:41:04 Chris: Right? Yeah. They they, yeah. They say, I was, they say I'm dismissed, I was dismissed for moral transgressions. That's not at all what happened. I said one day, I'm done with this. I'm going to leave now. And it took me nine months of going through their process to leave and still be in good standing. When I left the Church of Scientology, I was when I left Sea Org, rather, I was a Scientologist in good stand. Nobody had, you know, some big, big thing with me about all my moral transcussions that I now I was being dismissed from staff. That's not what happened. But they say that about every single person who speaks out. They were dismissed with cause. That's not what happened, you see.

0:42:04 Chris: So they paint this picture that is not at all a true reflection of reality, which is why it's very difficult to address all of the points they make because I have to explain all this backstory, right? It's a little bit like trying to disprove woo. It's so easy to say something like Deepak Chopra says something absolutely ridiculous. And, you know, what's ridiculous, but it takes you three hours of explaining to debunk some two line, you know, thing that he says, because you have to understand certain things in order to actually get why it's not true. You know. It's that kind of thing. At least that's how I see it.

0:41:35 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, It's, it's certainly that, that would, I would have a hard time dealing with this, and I'm sorry I had to go through that, because that, I mean, I, I hope you were, you were able to kind of brush it off, as much as possible, but yeah, that, that, that would be a shocking thing to go through, I'm sure, to see your ex-wife saying these things and and a post on you but

0:43:01 Chris: It sucks. It sucks. But it's again, it's not unexpected. You know, I've Been prepared for this for three years. I mean, you don't go into being a person who's going to publicly speak out against the church without knowing that there are going to be consequences to It. And my life has been totally prepped for it. I mean, all my friends, my girlfriend now, they're all they just laugh at it. They think it's ridiculous because they knew it was coming because I Told them It Was going to come, you know, and my and my family, my parents have been out of Scientology since before I got out, so they're not bothered by it You Know

0:43:01 Thomas: Uh Yeah Yeah. Yeah Well That's Good Yeah Yeah Okay Good, that's what I was thinking earlier because It's like the fact that only people in Scientology are really going to buy into this, I would think, or someone who Doesn't really know anything about the situation So

0:43:37 Chris: Exactly That's Right, as The other thing is, not only that, but not only do I have strangers tweeting me saying, hey, don't worry about it, this is just, you know, nonsense, but you know, I've got followers on YouTube and on Facebook and that sort of thing. And just every single one, you know, recognizes because they know me through my work. And they know that's not, that what the Church of Scientology is saying about me is not an accurate reflection of reality.

0:44:09 Thomas: Right, well That's Good, I'm glad you have that kind of that support to help you through it, but uh, but Yeah, so what's on the horizon for you, Chris? What is What's your next Project What's your next thing, tell

0:44:10 Chris: So yeah, big time. Okay, well, yeah, I've got big plans, actually. I've Got a video I'm working on right now, which I will finally complete early this next year, which is going to basically debunk the e-meter. And I'm going to really lay it all out in some detail.

0:44:37 Thomas: Me what the e-meter is I don't know what that is and

0:44:38 Chris: Oh, Sorry, the e- meter is Scientology's, that device they use where they have people hold these cans and they hook them up to this electronic device. The e-ometer is short for electropsychometer, and it's supposed to be used as a diagnostic tool to tell where a person's stress and trauma is located mentally by reading the resistance that's encountered to, you know, the electrical current running through a person's body when they're holding these cans. Basically, it works the same way as a lie, lie detector does, right You it's

0:45:15 Thomas: You're telling Me it's this, this isn't legitimate, is it? What you're trying to tell Me, I

0:45:19 Chris: Completely It's completely not legitimate, it's Uh, yeah It's, it's yeah, like big surprise, right? Yet here's the thing, for Scientologists, absolutely Believe In This Thing And They believe there, and and in fact a lot of people who come out of Scientology still believe in it because They don't have the background or knowledge base to understand what it really is Doing That

0:45:21 Thomas: Hope wow Shocking Yeah Of Course Yeah Yeah Hmm Well You Know I, you know, I just remembered, I, I think you said one of the last times you were on, I think you said that there was, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a time where you were thinking, okay, all the science of Scientology and all the, you know, the, the actual content of it is still true. It's just, I don't believe in David Miscavige or something like that.

0:46:02 Thomas: Like, wasn't, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's interesting. So, so maybe they're for those people who are still kind of in that position where they, They realize maybe the organization is corrupt, but I could still, it's sort of like if you leave the church, but you think, oh, but Jesus is still, still like that equivalent, you know, this might be something for them to kind of, yeah, interesting.

0:46:02 Chris: Was How I felt when I left The city, yes, and I've come to learn it's all bunk, yeah It's Also The science You Got It you Got That's right, and and there's a lot of mystique and and, you know, this kind of thing built up around this device, and unfortunately the e-meter and devices like it, including lie detectors, um, you know, a lot of people put a lot of faith in these things, and they shouldn't. I mean, they're not doing anything remotely what the people who are pushing the pseudoscience of them, they're not doing what these people say or claim that it's doing. And that's what I'm going to break down in this video and talk about. So this has been a pretty big project.

I've consulted with two electrical engineers, you know, a research scientist who really knows his stuff as A doctor as far as bodies and stuff go, so that I could really explain this from the position of science, you know? So yeah, and one of the electrical engineers, this is something I'm doing that nobody else has really particularly tackled with this, is one of those electrical engineers is an ex-Scientologist. So he's somebody who actually was trained on an e-meter, just like I was, knew how to use it, used it for hundreds and thousands of hours while they were in Scientology, and And is now able to talk about it from a position of, yeah, that's what they say it does, but here's what's really going on, right?

0:47:04 Thomas: Oh, cool.

0:47:39 Thomas: Neat. That's really cool.

0:47:41 Chris: Yeah, so that'll be pretty cool. And then the other thing is I'm going to be doing another book. I really wanted to get it done this year, but just got totally swamped with stuff. So this next year I'm bound and determined to do it. And it's going to be all about my experiences and the history and background of Scientology's Rehabilitation Project Force, the RPF, because

0:48:03 Thomas: So it's going to be, you're going to get more into your personal story in this one rather than just the kind of the details of Scientology.

0:48:05 Chris: I'll be doing both.

0:48:11 Thomas: Both.

0:48:11 Chris: I've been alternating Between my own personal story, which was three years on the RPF. I did that whole program and I finished it. So I'll be talking about my own experiences in it, but I'll also be talking about how it started back in the 70s, why L. Ron Hubbard created it, what it was like, how it evolved, and, you know, that sort of thing. So it'll be a complete picture of this thing because it's one of the most, not most misunderstood, but it is a very misunderstood part of what goes on in Scientology and in the CU Oregon. And people have confusions about it. And I want to I want to put something there that will just definitively lay it all out so that anybody who reads that is going to go, OK, now I totally get what this thing is.

0:48:12 Thomas: Okay, cool. Yeah.

0:48:57 Chris: And it's horrible. It's a it's a you know, it's A North Korean reconditioning camp is what it is. And and it needs to be laid out in detail as to how that you know what people go through on it. So, sir.

0:48:58 Thomas: Oh, cool. Well, that, that sounds really exciting. You'll have to definitely keep me apprised of when the book comes out. But yeah, Chris Shelton, thanks so much for coming on yet again. Where do you want to point people to if they want to find more of your work?

0:49:17 Chris: Sure. Well, my YouTube channel is where most of it is, or my blog. My blog has all my videos on it. It is mncriticalthinking.com.

0:49:32 Thomas: Yeah, congratulations on the hit page. Really cool accomplishment.

0:49:35 Chris: Thank you. Thank you.

0:49:36 Thomas: I hope to someday get there. We'll see.

0:49:38 Chris: That's actually a correct response to it. That really is. It's like, oh, wow, the Church church of Scientology is publicly lying about me now yes

0:49:40 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I would have made you a cake if I'd have known ahead of time. I would have sent you something, you know? Yeah. Awesome. All right. Thanks so much, Chris.

0:49:48 Chris: Exactly all right thank you

0:50:21 Thomas: Alright, thanks so much to Chris for coming on. Always fun to talk to. And that's one episode of Serious Inquiries in the Bank. Serious Inquiries only. One episode. Next episode. Yeah, thanks for bearing with me through this time of change. I've tried to make it so that you'll have to do as little as possible, maybe nothing. Maybe you will not have to do a single thing, unless it makes me change the RSS feed for Patreon. That's the only thing I don't know about. Try that and I'll let you patrons know. But thank you so much for listening. I'm very excited for where we're going, where we're headed, the direction we're headed. Haley and I have been doing a ton of research for the next couple episodes on Trump's cabinet picks and other appointments. It's going to be really fun. We've also been putting our heads together on some other new things we can do with the show now that we're going to have more time.

0:51:13 Thomas: So thank you guys for listening. I'm very excited and I'll see you next time for Serious Inquiries Only.