AS301: Angry Black Rant and Jake Farr-Wharton!

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 301 or is it 300 point B? I don't know. 300 B. I don't know. I chickened out. I'm gonna call it 301. I can't ruin my numbering system now, but this is technically still part two of the episode 300 celebration that I was so, so fortunate to be joined by such great guests for. Speaking of great guests, my first guest for today is Ishmael of the Angry Black Rant podcast. Now, I always have an incredibly good time when when I record with Ishmael, because, we have, varied opinions, and I always learn something, but it's also, always really fun, and funny, it's really cool, so, this was no exception, we wanted to talk about, a few of the issues, facing America, post-election, Ishmael has some thoughts on the, sort of, white-lash theory of Trump's victory, that sort of thing, but it, as always, it's wide-ranging, we discussed Colin Kaepernick quite a bit, really fun stuff, here is, Ishmael Brown. Joining me is Mr. Angry Black Rant himself, Ishmael Brown, how you doing?,

0:01:54 Ishmael: Doing good, Thomas. How are you, sir?

0:01:56 Thomas: I'm doing okay, I'm excited to have you on, my 300th episode, spectacular, I've, I, thanks for joining me, and kind of celebrating, and, uh, being a part of this, it's gonna be a huge, it's going to be huge, a huge episode, with lots of my favorite people, and you're certainly one of the, no, I was kidding, you're in the top, uh... of my favourite people, no.

0:02:18 Ishmael: There's Eli, and then there's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. You're somewhere after Tom from Cognitive This.

0:02:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. No, thanks for coming on, I really appreciate it.

0:02:26 Ishmael: And I gotta say thanks for having me on, and congratulations on 300, man. That's a huge number. I can't see myself getting that far, but I hope so.

0:02:34 Thomas: You're like, I'll be dead by then, I'll quit, I.

0:02:37 Ishmael: Some cop will shoot me.

0:02:38 Thomas: If it makes you feel any better, I can't see myself getting that far either, like I'm, I'm gonna go back and run the numbers again, make sure, maybe I. Skipped like. I.

0:02:46 Ishmael: Wait, I skipped a whole hundred episodes.

0:02:48 Thomas: Know, I went from like 99 to 200 or something like that, I might have, I don't. Yeah, thanks for saying that. I appreciate it. But hey, let's talk about something. I like that I'm doing what I'm doing is having a bunch of different of my favorite guests ever and my favorite podcasters. And we're having like mini episodes for each one. And I think it's really.

0:03:09 Ishmael: Cool.

0:03:09 Thomas: Cool. And today you and I wanted to talk about sort of the issue of did did Trump get elected because we're too, we're not nice enough to to these angry right wing kind of Trump voters? Are we, are we not nice to them? What's your obvious answer? I feel like I know with angry black rant, I feel like I don't know what your answer is going to be.

0:03:28 Ishmael: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to say, and it kind of pisses me off because it's not like the alt-right is saying it or the people were not. We're getting it from atheists. We'RE getting it from the left.

0:03:41 Thomas: Yeah, that's a great point. That's a good

0:03:44 Ishmael: They're saying, oh, you guys are too nice. I mean, are not nice enough. And that's the reason why they rebellion and went to Trump. And I'm thinking, no matter how how mean I was. There's no way I made a guy who was not going to vote for Trump, vote for Trump.

0:03:44 Thomas: Point.

0:03:59 Ishmael: So No, I mean, and it pisses me off because I had someone come on Facebook and say that, like, um, I think they put it in there. No, it wasn't in their posts. Um, someone commented and was like, yeah, I thank, uh, the left should just learn to, you know, be more open-minded and don't be so quick to condemn someone. And I put, uh, under it, I put translation, be nice to homophobes, transphobes, uh, racist, and I was like, no thanks, like, that's not, I'm not gonna be nice to anybody who's offending some group or who's just being an asshole on any level. Like, and, and if that's your style, if you come with them with a soft voice and you're nice, okay, do you. But don't tell me to be nice to somebody that, like, is hurting a certain group, trying to take rights away from certain people, like, fuck, like, I haven't, I couldn't do it. You know what I mean, I just couldn't do it. And I

0:03:58 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I think so too.

0:04:21 Thomas: Yeah yeah, Yeah,

0:04:47 Ishmael: Don't think that would push them to Trump.

0:04:47 Thomas: It exactly. And what gets so frustrating to me is you made a great point that I didn't even, you know, didn't occur to me that you're right. It's people on the kind of middle. You know who it is is people who are kind of on the left on most things, but still kind of want to be on the right on some other issues. They're the ones who are like, well, you know, you really should be nicer to these people. You.

It's like they're, it's, it sort of almost, it feels like it's almost a closeted thing, but that's just my speculation. I don't want to, don't intend to, to say I know what they're thinking, but that, that's what it feels Like. It feels like, okay, you, you want this side to be right about a few things. So you're saying we should be nicer to them, but it's not the people on the right. You know what? They're saying, they're saying Hillary murdered a guy and lock him, lock her up. And like, they're, that's what they're saying.

They're not saying you were nice nice enough to me. You know, they're saying like they're just wrong about stuff. Like they were just totally wrong about all their beliefs about Hillary, about even their beliefs about Trump. They're ignoring things about Trump." I mean, that's what they're saying. How do I be nice to someone? I mean you saw there's an interview that went viral. I actually didn't even watch it, but there was one where the quote from it was like, yeah, I believe this about Hillary because Facebook told me. Did you see that one? I think it made the

0:05:27 Ishmael: Exactly, oh,

0:06:03 Thomas: Rounds.

0:06:03 Ishmael: Yeah, I don't know if I saw that one. I saw one where it says, like, CNN, uh, reporter like, just can't help because a woman says three million, um, undocumented voters uh yeah, uh, voted in California and the woman's like, three million, and she's like, yeah, and she's like, who said that? She was like, oh, everyone, CNN, and she was like, no man, we didn't say. And then, and then the woman, like, googled it, and it was some fake right-wing site, and she's like, ma'am, this isn't even a real set, like, look, it's been debunked. And the woman's still like, well, I, I, I believe it. So, uh, yeah, so three

0:06:04 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, voted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's

0:06:38 Ishmael: Million.

0:06:38 Thomas: What they're saying. I mean, that's not, how do you be, I mean you can be nice, I guess, but like what, even if you're nice to that person, what do you, she's not going to not believe that. That is what's going on. And the other thing that bugs me about it is this idea that it's always on on us? Like, why don't, why don't any of these things go the other way? Because, because here's a complaint to you here. I've talked about this, and apologies to my audience because I've talking about this before, but it really bugs me. This whole masochism of like, well, it's the far left is what led to Trump. The far, well okay, what about the far right? What about them? Like do they count or no? Just because just because there might be people on the left, which there are, there are people who go too far with crap. There are people whose, yeah of course, just because they exist therefore Trump? Like, how does that work? Why can't the right take responsibility? They have responsibility for Trump. Believing fake news is a huge factor, you know?

0:07:14 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I actually, like, you brought up the far right, because it is like the far, far right saying, or someone who's not quite on the far right saying, see, because you guys said, lock her up, now the guys who are in the middle who used to vote for Hillary are going to vote for Bernie. Like, we're not voting for Bernie because the right is so extreme. We're voting for Britney because we're unhappy with Hillary. You know what I mean? Like, so it's, yeah, and the thing that pisses me off, it's and I think you're right. It's the people who are kind of center left who are saying it. And I honestly think it's because they've been treated mean.

0:07:49 Thomas: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.

0:08:12 Ishmael: They've been treated mean because the guy who said it, in a couple, that one of the guys you had on, on your last show, I don't even want to say his name. He said it, too. It's the same type of people who tell Black Lives Matter what what they should be doing. It's same people who say, well, if you stop traffic, see, you could have had me on your side. Now I don't care anymore. Oh, you don't care if cops killed unarmed black people because you were late to work? No, something tells me you never cared.

0:08:25 Thomas: Yeah, tone policing.

0:08:37 Thomas: Yeah and there's actually some great, you the meme battle on this is pretty good that I've seen where it's like, you always have people complaining about tone. It's they, they always do it. I mean, it's not to say that obviously if, if someone in Black Lives Matter, in my opinion, if someone goes too far, then they went too far. That can certainly happen. But like the idea that that's the main issue, like the main issue is their tone. But if they were different, then you'd be cool with it. Well, you know what's in it, Colin Kaepernick, as much as I think that guy's an idiot personally, I kind of think he doesn't really understand what's going on.

However, his, if he's protesting, uh, you know, a certain thing, if he is protesting police violence, cool, that's great, he's doing it in a way where all he did was kneel down during the national anthem and that's too far as well, like, what, what isn't too far? If literally just kneeling is too far, then I don't know, like that's, I can, I could see why people in Black Lives Matter and other groups would be a little tired of that tone policing when, when it's constant, no matter kind of what's happening. It's like, it's always there.

0:08:37 Ishmael: Yes. Yeah. Oh.

0:09:42 Ishmael: Yeah, um, first of all, I love Colin Kaepernick. I don't think he's as clueless as you think. And I, it's only because at first I was like, okay, that's great, he's kneeling, but then I heard some interviews with him and the things he's trying to start, like camps and stuff with young black kids. So I'm like okay he's

0:09:48 Thomas: Okay. Okay.

0:09:57 Thomas: I think that's great. No, no, I, sorry. Let, let me clarify. I don't think, I think he's doing a lot of good things, but I've heard some, he's got some opinions on Islam that are a little weird. He's, he said some things in my mind. They're like, okay, you don't really know what's going on there, but he's, I think, I think is doing some great stuff. Like I think He is trying to help people. And I didn't mean, sorry, I didn't mean to like dismiss his whole cause or anything. I just, I mean, he's a professional athlete. I mean, they're not like thought leaders usually, but whatever.

0:10:08 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, and he's actually, his fiance is Muslim, so I'm not, I haven't heard what he said, but I wouldn't be surprised if he said some of the dumbest crap in the world. And it's funny because, no,

0:10:32 Thomas: Well, oh wait, what about the thing he said? Okay, the thing that pissed me off was the thing where, oh, I saw it on Bill Maher. He had a quote. He wasn't on Bill maher, but Bill mahr talked about it.

0:10:42 Ishmael: Bill Maher was shitting on him, I'm sure.

0:10:42 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember when, because Kaepernick said that in terms of race, you know, like racism and stuff, Hillary and Trump are the same. Like he said they are basically the same as regards racism. And I want to get your thoughts on that because that was what I heard that I was like, all right, this guy, come on. Like that's just, okay.

0:11:01 Ishmael: Is that what he said? Or did I remember the clip on Bill Maher, and he said something about both candidates have problems or something. I don't know if he said they're the same, or did he say both candidates have problems, I feel like, cuz Bill Maier got, or at least that clip, that one clip I remember Bill Maher got pissed the hell off because he's like, oh no, both candidates aren't the same, no, obviously they're not the same, but they both have problems, and I think they do, Hillary has problems regarding race, um, but no, he but he he

0:11:30 Thomas: Here's what he said. I got the, I got the quote and we'll, and we can react to it. To me, it was embarrassing to watch that these two are candidates, uh, both are proven liars. And it almost seems like they're trying to debate who's less racist. And at this point talking with one of my friends, it was, you have to pick the lesser of two evils, but the end is still evil, he said, after saying that he watched a little bit of the debate, the, I didn't even know what he was talking about, when that's what they were debating, who was less racist, nobody, like, he, and the fact that he said he only watched a bit of debate, like, I feel like he, that

0:11:31 Ishmael: Oh, go ahead go ahead yeah no,

0:12:02 Thomas: Was not a considered opinion, but like, Like, right, right.

0:12:04 Ishmael: He's he's not in the politics at all, he didn't even vote, he's not in politics, he he was concerned about out social justice issues, and yeah, and Bill Maher got pissed because he's trying to make a uh false equivalence between the two, no, they're not, but black people aren't gung-ho about Hillary, like, we're not, we will vote for her the majority of us for the most part, but no, I, I would never be like, oh, Hillary's great, I totally trust her, but I would know, like, see, I probably wouldn't be, I'd probably be more aware than he is to say, well, listen, it's a close, um, uh, it's a close race basically. So I'm going to just shit on Trump and really try to avoid

0:12:09 Thomas: Interesting.

0:12:43 Thomas: No,

0:12:43 Ishmael: The problems with Hillary. Cause that won't serve.

0:12:44 Thomas: It's okay to critique Hillary. That's okay. But this sentence that both are proven liars, and it seems like this point where Hillary is, you look at PolitiFact, You look a bit at Hillary, look at Politifact. She was the most honest politician besides, like, Bernie. Like, she was second only to Bernie. And Trump was the most dishonest of all time, pretty much, that they have measurement for like the idea that you're putting them anywhere But but that's the thing, these state, these are, I'm honestly, these statements and things like this, not obviously not just this one thing, but this attitude during this election, I believe is really what cost us the election. Like this attitude of like, ah, this cynicism,

0:12:50 Ishmael: Oh, I know they both are. Listen, I get Trump is a different breed of liar.

0:13:10 Ishmael: Yes, he, listen. I would never say a statement like he Did. Yeah.

0:13:28 Thomas: Oh, everybody sucks, ah, politicians, they're all the same. No, we had a very clear choice between someone who was within the totally acceptable range of politician and wanted to do good things and has a good platform, and a fucking insane person like right

0:13:42 Ishmael: I I agree. I don't think he watches, I think the most he gets from what's going on is the news. And the news, and my, my problem, uh, problem, and I agree, is how the news normalize what Trump does. And when Trump says something terrible, like, I, I watch all the political shows, Morning Joe, like everything on MSNBC, and then I'll even go to Fox News and CNN, and um, and they all try to, whenever Trump says some terrible, they look for something in Hillary's past and say, is that any, any different? Of course, it's always different, but they try to do that. Like I said, false equivalence.

0:14:13 Ishmael: I don't think this guy knows anything about politics. What I was saying was I'd be more aware to not draw conclusions. Are they both liars? Yes. But you shouldn't say that because Trump is a different breed of liar. He will lie in the same speech. He'll say something and then say, no, I didn't just say that. You know what I mean? So I know not to give that. When it comes the politics, I don't think he knows anything. And I think he's doing, yeah, sorry, Kaepernick.

0:13:56 Thomas: Oh wow yeah yeah are you talking Kaepernick or Trump Kaeper sure yeah

0:14:41 Ishmael: And I Think he's just doing kind of what the news said. Oh, they're both proven liars. Yes, that's true. But it's irresponsible to say that because people are going to think you're saying they're Both equally the same. And you know, you can go from there. Because Hillary is a liar. Hillary has lied about things. That's why even one of her reps was like, on the whole TPP.

0:14:53 Thomas: Yeah

0:15:03 Ishmael: And she's going to switch. Cause that's how, I mean, politicians lie. You know what I mean? Like, so, but

0:15:07 Thomas: Yeah she did that because yeah, both Bernie and Trump were on that, yeah, it's interesting. She definitely, look, she gives into popular opinion at times, certainly, she she did, she does change her positions based on what's going to get her elected, um, but like, let's look at how bad that is, like how bad is it to make, to change your mind based on, okay, it looks like this is what people are supporting, I'm going to change my mind on. Now, if she doesn't follow through, sure, hold her accountable to that. But like, Obama didn't follow throughout a bunch of stuff. I mean, a ton of, of stuff. Yeah.

0:15:09 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Yeah.

0:15:35 Ishmael: You, you are preaching to the choir. I'm just telling you where he was coming from. But at the same time, even if he said they are both equally the same, he's wrong on that. But I just like it like don't ask.

0:15:43 Thomas: I mean, right well tell me that tell me

0:15:52 Ishmael: Well, I know

0:15:52 Thomas: What to tell me, the things you like about Kaepernick, because I, I did, I did slam him a little bit and I'm, I'm happy to be, uh, to be corrected on that. What are some of the things? Yeah.

0:15:59 Ishmael: Basically what he's doing, when he started a camp and, and I love how he's repping the Black Panthers, because it's a Black Panther, it's kind of in, in the theme of the Black Panic, so Black Panthers are, especially with um BLM, and everyone's trying to compare everything to the KKK. BLM's now the KKK, Black Panters were the KKK, and it's like, they are either forgetting what the hell the KKK did, or they're just trying to, or they don't know their history. I know a lot of people think the Black Panthers were out, like, bombing buildings and just murdering white people.

0:16:29 Thomas: You know what, it actually, that'd be good to talk about, because I, you know, just in my naive conception of it, when you say Black Panthers, I think, I'm remembering from, like, my, you know, public school education, kind of what people were saying, like, oh yeah, they were, they were pretty bad group, they're pretty, right, tell me, correct me on that, what were they like, hmm?

0:16:47 Ishmael: The Black Panther Party was a party, it's called the Black Panther Party of Self-Defense. So they were like, now, black people were being murdered by cops in the 60s during the civil rights. And the black people said, hey, we have the right to bear arms too.

So, they would start policing their own neighborhoods and pull guns out on cops and say, no, we haven't not done anything lawful, what are you doing here, leave now, or, or find a reason to arrest us, they were just basically self-defense, and, and they have, I mean the FBI has, uh, what's it, COINTELPRO, they've assassinated some of them.

I mean, they, they also have done really good program, you know, the morning breakfast programs, uh, in public schools, especially like elementary school, when you go to morning breakfast, that was started by the black by the Black Panthers yeah it was really to protect the, the black community who were being murdered by the police during the civil rights movement. A lot of them were like ex-Vietnam vets and stuff like that. And they just wanted to protect their community. And yeah, they got into some gunfights with cops and if they got pulled over. So bad things did happen, but they weren't like some terrorist party that were going out trying to assassinate anyone.

They were just trying to protect their community because cops would literally, there were civil rights leaders, there's who would go, who will get arrested in Alabama. And then it'll be like, oh, he hung himself in jail. He committed suicide. You know what I mean? They were just trying to wipe us out. And we all know how the FBI was taping us, taping Dr. Martin Luther King. And I mean, we were just under siege by our own country.

0:17:30 Thomas: Really huh yep

0:18:19 Ishmael: And they said, we have the right to bear arms. And you know who pushed legislation to rid citizens the right of their arms? The NRA. Because black people were arming themselves and people said, hell no. White people were like, like, hell no, we need to take guns from these people. So I love it. Now, I always say if we want gun control in this country, black people should start legally arming themselves because white people see you, you know, walking around with an AK strapped to your chest. They're going to say, I don't want that. And they'll be running to their congressman saying, we got to get some laws.

0:18:48 Ishmael: What do you mean? You know, so, so they weren't this like terrorist party that was, that you just have to take it in context of the civil rights movement and all the video you see of of people being hosed down and bit by dogs. And, you know, so they just were like, they were basically, they are like some of these ultra, not even ultra right, these gun nuts now who are like, I have the right to bear arms and protect myself from government. No one's coming after them. They were coming after us. So the Black Panthers were like, I have to write to bear arms and protect myself from the government. And they actually had a reason to think that.

0:18:39 Thomas: Yeah yeah right right yeah, yeah, the people, the white people arming themselves against the government really have no reason to, like, no one, no one really wants to take, do anything with that, it's really funny yeah

0:19:33 Ishmael: Yeah, I would love a funny skit where the guy's like, he's in his house. He's like you know the cops, you you know, I got to protect myself from government. He's strapping up all these guns. He walks outside and the cop just walks by and waves at him. Hey, how's it going, sir? It just keeps going.

0:19:44 Thomas: I see you got some guns there, cool. Cool.

0:19:47 Ishmael: Those are nice guns.

0:19:49 Thomas: Enjoy.

0:19:50 Ishmael: Guys like that was a close one.

0:19:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, That's not bad. Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't get it. I mean, I have a friend who's really into guns. A white guy, and I don't get it. I mean, he was, he's panic buying guns because of California's new law, which, all right, you can, you know, whatever, I'll listen to the argument about how, you know, California is, is pretty liberal and they do go pretty, uh, they, they go, they go pretty far left with, with a gun control. I mean, it's hard. It's, it'S one of those issues where I don't care. Cause I don'T care about guns, but I, I do see like, okay, I'll try to imagine I were someone who cared about guns. Like, yeah. Okay. I get some of this stuff is a little too hard, far. It just, it's stopping people who just want to own a gun, basically the people who do bad things with guns.

Like, I don't, I'm not one of those guys who's like, "Oh, criminals will break the law anyway, so there's no point in having any laws about it," but at the same time, there is some level of that, like, there's some consideration to be given for like, okay, we just made it 25% harder for someone who already was going to do it legally, it's like, yeah, maybe that's not worth it, but, but he's buying guns in order to, because this new law is going to take effect, I'm just like, what are you doing with these, these guns, like, what is even the point, I, I will never get it, but it's just, it's just not my thing, I guess,

0:20:17 Ishmael: Extreme. Yeah.

0:21:06 Thomas: I don't know, yeah, well, in case one goes rotten, I don't know, yes, sure, yeah.

0:21:06 Ishmael: And I'm always curious how many guns are too many? Like what could you do with all those guns? Like, wouldn't it be easier to just, yeah. Oh, and just before we move, speaking with the Black Panthers, I just want want to say and comparing them to the KKK, the KKK went out and lynched black people. They burned down churches. They burn crosses in front of black people's homes. They attacked and killed interracial couples. I mean, they were a terrorist organization.

0:21:31 Thomas: That is certainly a false equivalence, if there ever was one, there's no, yeah totally, thanks for taking us through that, so yeah, I get that, so Kaepernick repping the Black Panthers a little bit, and, and yeah, he's, he He's, there are elements of his message are certainly like, I just really had a problem with those comments. Cause I mean, I, you know, me, man, I this election was important to me. It was hugely important to and I think like this this, I think blew it. You know, I Think there was a lot of, it wasn't just him. I don't know. Obviously I don't just blame Colin Kaepernick.

0:21:34 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it was him, but yeah, I,

0:22:00 Thomas: Well, he, I I think This, this sentiment of, of this false equivalence between them. I really do think that that led to a sort of what's the word just like a malaise, like Like a sort of like, ah, you know, whatever. They're both the same.

0:22:02 Ishmael: I know. Go ahead.

0:22:13 Thomas: I think that killed us.

0:22:11 Ishmael: Yeah yeah. Well, but I don't think he swayed anyone.

0:22:15 Thomas: Well, I don't know, man. I mean, he didn't help. He's got a following. He's gotta be, whatever, yeah, yeah.

0:22:19 Ishmael: I don''t think I agree, but I, I totally agree. But I think there were so many people who just actively went out and like voted for, especially within the atheist camp, man, I blame Robert Price more than him any day. Oh my gosh. Oh, Hitlerian. Jesus.

0:22:33 Thomas: Oh man, Hitler-y, Yeah.

0:22:39 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah. So what were we talking about? Everything, yeah.

0:22:45 Thomas: Well, yeah this idea that we need to be nicer to the other side, to get back to that main topic. Um, I mean, I, I get it. People's different tactics. I understand there's certain, certain times I'm going to try to be, I'm gonna try to engage in a more polite way, but I mean whatever. I, don't, what do you think? Do you think there's a, as regards like, you know, one of the big complaints for the right has been like, well, you just, we got to stop calling everybody racist and everybody sexist. And what do you think about that? I mean is there too much of that going on? Is there none of that going on? What's your thoughts on that sentiment? Yeah.

0:22:48 Ishmael: Yeah. No.

0:23:18 Ishmael: Well, I think they like to blow it up to make it seem like we're calling everybody racist and everybody's sexist. Yeah, it's, it's, uh, when you're online and it's that anonymity that you were talking about last week, yeah, someone, there'll be people who get in their little groups and just say, you know, this is racist, that's right, or they'll overreact.

And I'm always a person like you, I'll say, I mean I'm angry and I'm aggressive, but I'm quick to be like, that's not, come on, man, that's not that serious. I don't really have a problem with it. Yeah, I can see why you kind of do, but whatever. Oh, like there was just a school that took down their flag. I think it was in Maine or something. They took down the American flag for a week, and people kind of went crazy over it. And I thought, like, why would you do that? And I had in my head, sometimes I do this probably because I'm crazy. I had a conversation, like, I went to that school, and I had a conversation with them kind of in my head, I didn't go to that skill, but I just be like, why are you going to do, what's that doing for anybody? Yeah, I get

0:24:01 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:17 Thomas: Well.

0:24:18 Ishmael: It, you know, I'm embarrassed to this country too, but you're just going to upset them, and not that I care if you upset them, I'm okay with upsetting them, but what did that do for us, or like it just seems silly to me, but what am I going to tell them, not all I can do is give them my opinion, but I wouldn't be, I wouldn't, you know, I don't give a fuck about the American flag. You You can pay me to burn it. I haven't burnt the flag because I had no reason so far. I haven't been in the... If I was at a protest and they said, right?

0:24:41 Thomas: You haven't needed any heat it hasn't been too cold, so, but maybe. Yeah, yeah.

0:24:46 Ishmael: If I was at a protest and they said, does she got a lighter? I wouldn't be like, no. I'd say, okay, whatever. But, and that still wouldn't... I have no... I don't... Like, that's not my thing, I guess. You know? I like yelling at people and, you know, talking to people. But, I totally get them wanting to do that. And, I would never tell them not to. So, I'm kind of like... I don't know, you can be, there's different ways to reach people, you know, I'm really aggressive at times, but sometimes I see someone who I can reach, and then I'll want to talk to him and be like, yeah, but don't you see, like, you know, this is why we feel this way and you know stuff like that.

But there are also times, like, with a few people online, that once I see them rude to someone, once I just want to freaking beat them down and call them all types of names, and I feel like I'm being accurate in my assessment of them, and I'm gonna just go hard at them. People gonna say, oh, that's going too far, whatever, he already crossed the line, he, he's trying to like shit on people, so I'm just gonna go at him. But there's also times where I'd be like, hey, come on the show and let's talk about our, about our disagreements. So, you know, it

0:24:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:25:47 Ishmael: Depends on the situation. Yes.

0:25:48 Thomas: Well, I noticed that when I tried to record with trolls, they became a lot less, uh, trollish when you actually talk to them.

0:25:54 Ishmael: Sir. Yeah. Exactly.

0:25:55 Thomas: Interesting how that happens, um. And what's that, yeah.

0:25:58 Ishmael: Yeah. Most trolls will most trolls will change if you talk to him, either in person or over, uh, Skype.

0:26:06 Thomas: We'll see, and that's, that's what's so annoying to me to, sorry to go off on a different topic, but it's like, I don't, I don't change. Like I'm, I mean, I, you know, I'll pretty much be the same either way. Like if, if you talk to me or if you're talking to me on a, on a post, I mean, it's pretty much the same barring, of course, text will appear different, you know, like that's true for everybody. But, but like, why, why are there these people that feel like they need to be super aggressive when it's online in like a text format? And then when you talk them, they're like, Oh, you you know, isn't that a sign that maybe you're acting the wrong way in one of those spheres, you know?

0:26:16 Ishmael: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

0:26:42 Thomas: Like, that's all I'm saying. Like, yeah.

0:26:43 Ishmael: Yes. If you have to hide yourself in it, or not hide yourself, if you have to change when it comes to the medium, like, oh, you're all aggressive and everyone's stupid and this and that, and you love to just find what they love on their page and shit on it, but if you talk to them, you're this reasonable, even kill guy, it's like then that guy, on, you, that guy that you're online is fake, and it's phony, and maybe there's something you're unhappy about that you take it out on people online, you know, um.

0:26:47 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I agree. So, in terms of, you being too mean to the right. I don't want to get into a thing of like, oh, the other side did it, therefore it's okay, because it's not really what I'm trying to say, but I'm trying to see a sort of a version of that, which is the other site is doing that, therefore it can't be what lost us the election. I think that's what I mean to say. You know what I mean? So the other sides, think about how the right treats the left. It's not like like they're nicer or something. It's not like the right is a bunch of polite

0:27:35 Ishmael: Yeah. They are literally trying to take rights away from us, they literally want, they don't want you to go to the bathroom, go to certain bathrooms, but we should be nice to them, to them.

0:27:46 Thomas: People. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. Even if you want to argue, we should be nice to them. That's fine. You can argue that. You can do that yourself, whoever's out there. If you want it, try to be nice. That is cool. And like we have already talked about, there are different times, different tactics, whatever. But what I mean to say is it can't be the case that that is what, what lost us the election, when the other side is even more awful to us, or at least, at least as awful to us, like when, sure, we're, we're calling maybe certain people on the left or calling people on the right racist or whatever it is. But look at what the right to the Oh, you baby with your trigger warning, safe spit, blah, blah. Like that. They do that all day. I mean, why didn't that lose them the election. I don't get it. Like, you know, it's, yeah.

0:27:51 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:34 Ishmael: Yeah. And even that's a false equivalence because sure, we're calling them racist. And on the other side, they're being racist. You know what I mean? Like, even if we say it too much, I don't know. I see more racism on online than I see racist getting beat up and called racist. Like how many memes, like if there's a meme about, oh, this guy's racist, yeah, keep scrolling. But if there is a racist meme that stings, you know what I mean? That has an impact and you guys are upset. Like if you're not racist, I had, like, uh, we were talking about it. I'm being told I hate all white people and that I'm racist. Okay, I're not. That's why I laugh. I go, yeah, I'm racist, like, I don't care, but you can say whatever the fuck you want. Like I'm not racist. But if you think I am, if the way I'm acting is being great, I would need more than you and more than just trolls to call me a racist. If people on my side said it, should be in kind of racist. I'd stop and look at my behavior.

0:28:40 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, you, like, punched an old white lady just for no reason, like just because she was white. Like if that happened.

0:29:33 Ishmael: I punched her because she's old, not because she is white.

0:29:36 Thomas: So you're being ageist. Okay, that's fine. That's acceptable. Yeah so just to clear up the record, you don't hate all white people.

0:29:40 Ishmael: Yeah. No one cares about that. Let me see. Talk to my public. Yeah. No.

0:29:46 Thomas: Okay. Present, present company excluded.

0:29:48 Ishmael: I do not hate all white people.

0:29:48 Thomas: Yeah. There's a couple of good ones.

0:29:52 Ishmael: Yeah, you and like Eli and I don't know, there's a couple others, I don' know.

0:29:54 Thomas: Yeah, a couple good ones. Okay, well, fair enough.

0:29:57 Ishmael: My best friend is white, actually. My roommate

0:29:58 Thomas: Oh, I see a lot of your good friends are white people, huh?

0:30:01 Ishmael: So I'm in the clear, I can punch, like, 5 white people and be like, look, you should say, I'm friends with a guy named Ishmael. Do you know Ishma? Oh, you do. So, okay, so let me tell you what's wrong with Black Lives Matter.

0:30:04 Thomas: Hey, well I'm friends with Ishmael, so I feel like that covers me, right? Right? Does that mean I'm...

0:30:15 Thomas: Yeah. We've established that I have one black friend. Okay, good. Now let me critique the whole movement. Tell you how much I hate Colin Kaepernick. No, I'm just kidding. Hey, he's out there on the field killing it, by the way. He's playing really well again. He wasn't for a while, but yeah, he is a good player. I don't mind it. And I don't mind the protest, man.

0:30:30 Ishmael: Yeah. I know. Exactly. Oh, it.

0:30:35 Thomas: I really don't. I think it's a bullshit thing to get all caught up in a protest that's really doing nothing. Look, the NFL has certain rules or whatever, like for everybody, you can't like, they stopped those players from, uh, I think from putting John three 16 in there. I'm bullshit the other year. Like if, as long as they're consistent, which the NFL isn't, they're pretty bad in a lot of ways, but as long As he's not breaking his agreement, his employment agreement, which, uh you know, that exists, you can only do certain things as an NFL player.

0:30:36 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Really.

0:30:54 Ishmael: I know. I know, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

0:31:04 Thomas: As long as he's Not doing that, who cares? He's doing whatever like the, this whole backlash where the, the TV station wasn't even going to show it. Like they were going to like not air the anthem because it was so horrible that he was kneeling. It was just the weirdest thing. I will never get it.

0:31:05 Ishmael: Mm-hm. Jesus. My god.

0:31:20 Thomas: Can't you just, even, God, even if I was totally on the right, I feel like I would say, oh, I disagree with that. Like that's the end, you know?

0:31:20 Ishmael: Mm-huh.

0:31:30 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:31:30 Thomas: Like it's, it's funny how often that side needs a safe space. You know, they need, they can't be triggered. Triggered trigger warning. A guy is kneeling during the anthem trigger warning, it's the same thing.

0:31:30 Ishmael: Yes. Right. It is, it really freaking is, it is. It Is same.

0:31:46 Thomas: So great. So we're just about at the time I was shooting for, that was perfect. Thank you so much for the discussion, Ish. It's good as always, really interesting stuff. So I just want to say that I've been kind of saying to everybody, and I really mean it. It means a lot to me that we've been friends and supporting each other on our shows. And thanks so much for joining me for episode 300.

0:32:06 Ishmael: Here, Thomas, thanks for having me on, and once again, congratulations. Definitely.

0:32:09 Thomas: Thank you too kind, and I hope to talk to you again soon.

0:32:26 Thomas: For my second guest of the day, to make this a very action-packed part two, of my Episode 300 Spectacular, I've got Jake Farr-Wharton. Has invite me on his show, the Imaginary Friends show or iFrends, uh, many times, someone who, if he didn't live 400 worlds away, would, I'm sure, be a very close personal friend who I would drink with a lot, but since he's on the other side of the world, we must settle for a, quite a podcast bromance that I am happy to be a part of, and Jake has been on the show many times before, this time, we wanted to talk about an interesting topic, Jake Jake brought to my attention an Australian law that actually limits free speech because, being the ugly American I am, I often forget that other countries don't have First Amendment.

So, they are able to pass laws that limit speech, and one way in which Australia has done that, back in 1975, was they limited certain types of hate speech, so we talk about that, it's interesting, because that would not fly in America, that would pass the Supreme Court, that wouldn't make it. It. But, of course, it wouldn't be a recording with me and Jake, without a little bit of friendly jostling in the beginning, and catching up, and that sort of thing, so, there's that, there is a free speech, hate speech law discussion, and more, very interesting stuff, here you go, Jake Farrwarden.

0:34:01 Thomas: Dear listening ninjas, joining Jake Fart Warning, Mr. Jake Farr-Wharton of the, oh my god, I'm gonna say the old name, old show name, the

0:34:10 Jake: Well, Said. No no, no. I like the old show name. The old show was a good one.

0:34:14 Thomas: Imaginary Friends Show, it's, it, it still IFS, right?

0:34:22 Jake: Yeah exactly, well said. It's still iFriends.

0:34:25 Thomas: iFriends, okay, we'll go with iFri- Jake Farn Warning, Jake Farl Whartin of the iFriendz show. How are you doing today?

0:34:35 Jake: Oh, It's good. Yeah. No. I'm well, thank you, sir. You know, actually just on playing on names or wordplay, yeah, that's what it's called, um, yeah, so, uh, I, I've just taken over a new large team at my work and, um, and we're going through this thing, you know, different people have to elect to be fire wardens and, um, yeah, you're probably already there but it's just that there's the sound, the fact that my name sounds ever so slightly like the fire warden, um, made somebody assumed that I was the fire warden. It must have been the way that they'd said mine. Oh, Jake Firewarden or something like that. That's his name. So I was immediately elected the flipping fire wardEN. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, guys. Thanks.

0:35:17 Thomas: I just thought you, they called you that all the time. Oh, that's funny. Oh, Jake, thanks so much for coming on for my episode 300 spectacular here. You've been a good, good friend of mine and of the show for a long time. And I've always appreciated your support and coming on the show, man, it's been a long, long time since I've

0:35:24 Jake: Yeah.

0:35:38 Jake: It's been far too long. Oh, a long time that we've been doing it? Yeah. Yeah, it's been not long enough. Yeah, no, but it's also been...

0:35:44 Thomas: Been I was gonna say, I thought this was where you're breaking up with me. You're like, it's been too long. I can't do this anymore.

0:35:45 Jake: Yeah, yeah, get your hand off my leg. No uh yeah I I miss you no it's been far too long since we've spoken so

0:35:54 Thomas: It has. Yes. We're both very busy, So what's going on in your life, Jake? You you have a story for us.

0:35:59 Jake: Oh man. Yeah. Well, it's not really a story as much as an adage, but

0:36:04 Thomas: Hmm. Okay, let's talk about the difference between a story and an adage. No,

0:36:08 Jake: Yeah, No. So I'm moving house. I'm doing so in Australia, we have this term, which is called a sea change where you move from one distinct area to another distinct area. I don't know whether this is a, you know, a whole world I'm saying, but anyway, I'm going to claim it as an Australian one

0:36:24 Thomas: I guess not. I mean, I know Sea change, I know that term, but I don't, yeah, I didn't, I guess I didn't know you were meant it in the specific, like if you just tell somebody in Australia while you're battling snakes and just crap that's trying to kill you, you're like, hey I, I could use a sea change, they'll know what you're talking about weird

0:36:34 Jake: Yeah they they're like, bro, I know exactly what you're talking about and they always start the um the sentence with the uh the term bro, even if you're a woman, yeah, it's, I know right, it's the worst, uh, but Uh, no, so I'm doing a sort of an anti-c chain, so I'm going from what was ostensibly the beach to what is ostensably the bush. And so I've moved inland from a little country town called Ormo that was, you know, it's gotten too built up. I was being overrun by Muslims. I tried to build a wall, Mexican Muslims, to keep the Mexican Muslims out. Yeah, I've become racist in the last little while.

0:36:44 Thomas: Okay oh Really? Really? Ugh. Yeah.

0:37:16 Thomas: You just snuck that in there. Oh, okay. Good. Update on Jake Farr-Wharton. He's now racist, everybody.

0:37:26 Jake: Yeah, of the things that we knew about, Jake, yeah, this is the best. No, yeah. So obviously only kidding. There was only one Muslim. Of course, one is too many, but no,

0:37:26 Thomas: Okay, cool. Yeah, I was going to say one is enough for Australians. You all freaked out.

0:37:38 Jake: I'm just kidding. Yeah, well, you know, look, it's with wearing the niqab. There's always that potential that you'd be just walking by and one of those Australian snakes will just slither up there. So they could be hiding many things of which snakes, yeah, it's

0:37:55 Thomas: Yeah it could be a kangaroo. It could be any of the animals. There's a lot of things trying to kill you in Australia. Someday they'll figure out to wear a burka or something and and that'll that'll be the end of everybody

0:38:01 Jake: True. It's true, yeah So I I'm doing a bit of a sea change or an anti-sea change, moving from the sea to the change, uh, which is uh, moving to a place, a lovely place called Tambourine Mountain, um, but we sold our, our beautiful big house, our beautiful dream house, uh, bought a property, um, and uh, that's the, both of them settle next week. And we've moved into a rental property for the next six months while we build a new dream house on a nice big block of land. And so the most amazing thing, because of course, listeners may not know, but I certainly know how angry you got with me so many times for having such shit internet.

0:38:07 Thomas: Oh

0:38:48 Jake: But I've moved from like a semi-metropolitan area to the country and we got this thing called the National Broadband Network and we've got, we've got fiber optic cable, buddy, it's amazing and

0:38:59 Thomas: So you wait a minute, I was gonna say you, I thought it was gonna get worse, so you moved to the sticks and got better in it, wow stick internet, like that's you needed sticks somehow yeah yeah but they've gotten really good at putting sticks together for internet over there apparently well

0:39:06 Jake: Got better internet yes yeah it's literally two sticks cobbled together yeah yeah well it's Australian sticks, yeah, they're filled with gold or something thing, um, yeah oh

0:39:19 Thomas: That's cool if nothing else than just for that. What was, so what, what was the, uh, you know, why, why did you, you sold your dream house? I'm kind of, that phrasing made me a little sad. What's going on? What's the deal?

0:39:34 Jake: No, it really was a, an, a, you know, a lot of things moved into the suburb that we were uh living at, so uh, crime was one of them, uh, noise was another one, um, so no, we just got, we'd got a little bit sick of the Um, the, I don't know, just the number of people that we were surrounded by, uh, but also we've always wanted, uh, always wanted some, uh, some space. We've always wanted some space.

0:39:48 Thomas: All right.

0:39:59 Jake: You know to gross yeah, plus of course, I, I had, I had chickens and I loved my chickens and the next door neighbor's dogs broke through the fence and murdered two of my chickens

0:39:59 Thomas: Oh, well, that's cool. Hmm. Uh, that was the last straw. Yeah, no, that is really cool. Well, I grew up in the country and, uh. It is, someday I do think about like, yeah, maybe, maybe it would be cool to have property like I did when I was a kid, you now. But, uh yeah, Yeah. No, that's cool. I like it.

0:40:09 Jake: Yeah yeah yeah yep yeah yeah no, I was the same I grew up on, I grew up on an enormous farm, a banana plantation, um it was great

0:40:24 Thomas: All right. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. I don't think I've ever registered.

0:40:29 Jake: Oh well you know, you never, uh, never asked the question, never get, get the answer, you know

0:40:33 Thomas: Yeah. Sorry. All Right. Well, I should have asked, did you grow up on any banana plantations? I just should have said, I always ask that with people, but I forgot to with you. Sorry . Well, that is cool. So that is good news then.

0:40:36 Jake: Yeah yeah no it was a, it was amazing it

0:40:47 Thomas: This is a good positive change. All All right. I like it.

0:40:48 Jake: Is oh yeah man, we're building, we're an enormous house, I'm so excited it is, it's huge, man, I've got, I got my choice of literally three podcast rooms to podcast in, yeah we're

0:40:53 Thomas: Neat. So what what are we going to talk about today. You mentioned it.

0:41:03 Jake: We're going to Talk about, yeah, I want to talk about Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination or Villification Act of Australia. And I'm doing this for a couple of reasons. Number one, I know how much of a proponent of free speech you are. And I like to create a bit of controversy on the Atheistically Speaking podcast.

0:41:18 Thomas: Yes.

0:41:26 Jake: And I think we've tried to discuss this a couple times, and I'm not sure that it fully occurred, especially on our patron-only thingos that we were doing. I'm not so much a proponent of free speech. I like the idea of free speech, but I don't like the idea that everybody gets to, well, rather not everybody gets to start from the level playing field perspective. And, you know, as a consequence of that, Australia has this, well not as a a consequence of that. So Australia has this law which prevents racial vilification you know, basically for any purpose. And support it wholly, fully, completely. And I think it's one of those things where Australia and potentially America differ.

0:42:17 Jake: You know, Australia has no right to free speech. We don't have a Bill of Rights. We, we don't have sort of an enshrined to free speech. You can, of course, sort of we have an implied right to free speech, but there are these certain areas where you are prevented from, you know, just going out into the street and yelling the N-word, which is Nigella Lawson. She's one of the greatest cooks in the world. Uh, she's she's also gorgeous, um, she just, the the foods that she creates is is no, but so we, we, uh, are unable to, I suppose, um, racially vilify somebody, um, you know, legally you can be, uh, you can be sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars, found guilty by this, uh, this court of arbitration that is associated with this act.

0:43:08 Jake: But it's truly a way, I think, that America and Australia differ. But in Australia, they're trying to the very conservative side of Australian politics, the Australian Liberal Party, Ms. Noma, unfortunately, they are trying to dilute what's called Section 18C of this law.

0:43:28 Thomas: Right. So I've got it pulled up. This is something I misunderstood you. This isn't something that's trying to get past. This is something you've had since 1975. Okay.

0:43:31 Jake: Yeah five that's correct, yeah and they're trying

0:43:38 Thomas: So and they're trying. Okay, that, that is because of, like you said, my bias of being in the US and thinking of things how I've thought of things. I just assumed that this was something that was trying to become law, and because there's a similar thing going on in Canada that people have complained to me about, even though it's not really the same. But this is interesting because this is really just a free speech thing, which is, it is a, this is not a straightforward issue to me. I don't know if you know about the one in Canada, but just, just to briefly go through that, somebody, uh,

0:43:38 Jake: To dilute it yeah no

0:44:14 Thomas: Has been tweeting me all about it. Like, oh, this is killing free speech. It's killing free speaking. It turns out all it does is just protect people for, or like the New York one. Have you heard of that one? Uh, all it Does is add, and it's already been there since 2002 or something like that. All it does Is add gender identity to a list of protected, uh classes. Classes, and they're, like, this was tweeted about by certain people who are anti-social justice as though this meant if you call someone the wrong pronoun, like if, you know, if there's a trans woman and I accidentally, but they appear more like a man, and I say, oh, hey, sir, like I could be arrested.

That was how, that was the straw man that was presented, when in reality all it is is if you are an employer, or if you're leasing something for them, you're like a landlord to them or provide some public accommodation, and they tell you they want to be known as a certain pronoun, and you refuse to do so repeatedly, then you could be punished for it. And that's all it was. Not a big deal. When you look into it, it turned out to be, okay, that's reasonable to me. But this is interesting because it's not some straw man presentation of it. This actually is, and it's a pretty short law. I could almost just read

0:44:24 Jake: Yeah oh it is, yeah, yeah, yeah, you, you can actually but but it's, it's important that, so if you're going to read it and, uh, I suggest that you do, because of course it's always important for Americans to uh, you know, uh, to, well, I was going to say yes, absolutely, to read, but also, uh, for Australia to dictate, uh, other countries, I mean America.

0:45:29 Thomas: It. Sure, let's do that. Okay, okay, sure, to read.

0:45:48 Jake: America to dictate other countries' laws. Yeah.

0:45:46 Thomas: Oh, sure. Yeah. Well, you're, oh, that's a better joke. If you want, I can, I can let you cut that in better and then I can laugh again.

0:45:52 Jake: Oh, definitely. But an actual laugh, not a pity laugh.

0:45:59 Thomas: Okay. No, I will. It was funny. It was a good joke. No. So yeah. Racial Discrimination Act of 1975. Offensive behavior behavior because of race, color, national, or ethnic origin. It is unlawful for a person to do an act otherwise than in private if the act is reasonably likely in all circumstances to offend, insult, humiliate, or intimidate another person or group of people, and the act is done because of the race, colour, or national or ethnic origin of the other person or some or all of the people in the group. And then there's some, there's another section to it, it looks like.

0:46:28 Jake: Correct. Yeah, So that's Section C. Section D provides a number of exemptions, but it's basically to ensure that free speech is possible. Possible, um, it basically protects things like artistic words, scientific debate, a fair comment, etc, on matters of public interest, uh, to to ensure that, while, uh, 18C has been stated, and it basically says, you know, you can't, um, in sort of in my example, go out and yell the n-word at somebody who might fit the description of somebody who might be called an n-world, um, or you can't publish a cartoon that racially vilifies a particular stereotype or segment of the public.

0:47:15 Thomas: Well, but you mentioned art. What about, like, satire? I mean, like Charlie Aliebdo or something like that. I mean, okay.

0:47:21 Jake: So satire is completely protected, completely protected. It's just in occasions where it's skirting the lines between libelous and clearly offensive. So I think on average, it's something like 200 odd cases are brought before the courts each year to arbitrate these types of cases that are lodged to the Human Rights Commission on these grounds. And I think it's something like one or two per year actually settle. So get to the stage where one party is is admitting some level of guilt and settles. I know that's clearly, and Andrew's probably sitting there saying, that's not why they settle. That's not Why They Settle, Jake. But I'm just sort of trying to establish the premise that, yeah,

0:48:11 Thomas: It might be, it might be in that case. I mean, people settle, corporations will settle just for no reason, but I mean I can imagine like an individual who, you know, who knows why they settle, but it's most likely because because there's a good case.

0:48:27 Jake: Some level or admission of guilt. I'm not sure. I'm probably just erring on the latter. But anyway, there's very few occasions where this actually comes to a court decision. But when it does, it's quite often held up. So the complainant is quite often and has some form of compensation. Usually that compensation really only covers the cost of the lawyers in the case. So it's truly a fair and balanced court, in my opinion anyway, that finds generally in the favour of the complainant where that complaint is valid.

Valid, um, and so the the premise of this discussion that I wanted to have with you is, is that, uh, in Australia, our conservative government is, is attempting to, uh, remove or water down these laws to prevent, um, cases where there is legitimate, uh, complaints to be had, uh, and they're doing it on the basis that, I think it was about 2000 and, or maybe 10, uh, a Australian broadcaster, highly conservative, real crackpot loon of a guy, I know that's libelous but I'm saying it for the purposes of satire, just to be clear, um, the guy, so the guy, uh, by the name of Andrew Bolt, uh, he's known in Australia. It's hilarious when you create, you know, it's like Fox News, fair and balanced. I

0:49:46 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:49:58 Jake: Love it when people create their own tagline. Well, his is Andrew Bolt, Australia's most red columnist. Yeah.

0:50:03 Thomas: Not a crackpot.

0:50:14 Jake: Yeah, I don't think so, buddy.

0:50:12 Thomas: Just, yeah, just even though he's not, yeah.

0:50:17 Jake: Sorry, Andrew.

0:50:17 Thomas: Oh, man.

0:50:19 Jake: I don't think it's Indigenous Australians who have white skin. So they claim that their descent is of Indigenous Australian nationality. And as a consequence of that, they are awarded certain things. So, because I'm not sure whether you're aware of Australian history, but the British came over, they took the Aboriginals' jobs.

0:50:40 Thomas: Nah. Yeah.

0:50:44 Jake: And no, that was gross oversimplification. They threw them off cliffs, killed them.

0:50:48 Thomas: Well, it's NAFTA, right?

0:50:50 Jake: Yeah, NAFTA, you got it, you've got it. Yep. And yeah, so basically, it was pretty awful. And as a consequence, Australian or Indigenous Australians do receive some form of benefits that are greater than, say, your average white-bred citizen who doesn't have a job. So there's things like, you know, they maintain communities, they provide grants for artistic expression for, or creative industries, Etc.

0:50:50 Thomas: Oh, okay, Yeah. It's Like The The American Government.

0:51:19 Thomas: But maybe even, uh, going a little further, it's reparations, basically, in a sense, like, It's it's a way Of Try To try To make up for past awful behavior. So, okay.

0:51:23 Jake: It Is In A Sense Yeah, yeah. Well, Australia Has, Australian, has never really admitted guilt, uh, so It's kind of loose reparations, I think, that's, that's a good way to put it, actually, Thomas. Well said.

0:51:29 Thomas: Okay. Wait, Why Not Like, why haven't they, that's weird. I mean, Even, even we Admit that, you know, there was slavery and it was bad. Well,

0:51:38 Jake: Uh, It's Yeah, I know it's, but it's actually, so in 2007, uh, then Prime Minister, was, uh, Kevin Rudd was elected on a platform of, I'm gonna say sorry to the, uh, Indigenous Australians. So he did, he did that, he said, he said publicly, we are sorry. It was a, it was a beautiful speech, I think a lot of people were moved to tears, but then nothing happened after that, and so Indigenous Australians Well,

0:52:07 Thomas: What, what What would Have happened? I mean, what's, what's the goal? I mean, Saying sorry Sorry, it wasn't the, yeah, go ahead, so

0:52:10 Jake: The Next the Next Sort Of The Next Sort step is, I mean, it's just words, this that's sort of the the premise of white didn't go far enough. So number one, the next step should be constitutional recognition that Indigenous Australians were the the first people. And I suppose the next step after that is ensuring that Indigenous Australians have a lifespan that's comparable, and educational opportunities, basic human rights that are equal to that of your everyday Australian citizen.

0:52:39 Thomas: There's a, it sounds like there's a gap in outcome between,

0:52:42 Jake: It's literally called the gap. So if you look up Indigenous Australians, the gap or Aboriginal, the cap or anything like that, it doesn't display clothes it's uh it's it's an issue yeah they they there is an enormous gap yeah

0:52:42 Thomas: Oh, okay, the first, the first gap was an aboriginal gap, that was, that wherever, yeah.

0:52:59 Jake: It was it was they also have baby Baby the gap, that was an awful joke, sorry. So uh, that so basically, the it's not going far enough at the moment um to protect these guys and and so basically, there is this huge campaign to water down these laws to protect people like Andrew Bolt, who will quite often racially vilify people, as he has and as he hasn't been found guilty of doing. And people like Andy Bolt, these great big free speech proponents, want to be able to say whatever they want to say without

0:53:00 Thomas: Wow, that, okay.

0:53:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:53:35 Jake: Any form of consequence. And to that degree, I think I cannot agree with free speech to that, you know, to that degree. So it's quite interesting. And I suppose that's, no,

0:53:41 Thomas: Hmm. That is really interesting. Now, let's talk about it, because my first reaction with the way you've set this up is this has been in, know, enacted since 1975 and uh the world hasn't ended over there or has it, I don't know, maybe it has but it sounds like the world

0:53:59 Jake: No. So it is absolutely not the straw man version of the, you know, it's completely watering down free speech. It's there to stop legitimate commentary, etc. It is properly being tested. And the commission itself really does strike an excellent balance, I think, between free speech and

0:54:00 Thomas: Yeah and if it's only 200 cases a year, I mean, that that's what surprises me and but it totally also fits, like, it surprises and doesn't surprise me that the uh conservative liberal party, the the conservatives who are called the Liberal Party over there, right? Am I getting it right? Okay. God, it is the other side of the world. It's upside down. Anyway.

0:54:22 Jake: Yeah yeah yeah it's hilarious capital L liberal, yeah

0:54:43 Thomas: Yeah. Doesn't surprise me that this would be kind of a distraction that they would try to put. They're picking an issue. It is sort of like the Burka or Nakab issue in Canada that I have spoken, I think, with Ina about where this is like a nothing But it's being used by conservative politicians to drum up this kind of, you know, nativist sort of, you being scared of other people being basically drumming up the more racist. I'm not, I'm Not going to say outwardly racist, but racist people in their base. And, and, and it, but, but it makes sense.

It's like, it's totally something that would happen here too. It's totally something like the immigration issue or like, I don't know, any other Trump's platform where it's a nothing issue. It's something that really our net immigration has been negative. And, you know, if you look at a lot of these issues, there's really nothing behind it. But it's being trumpeted as this great stand that they need to make when really, you know, this Racial Discrimination Act that you're talking about, 200 cases a year, I mean, that's nothing. Thing. And especially if only a few are even found guilty or settle or whatever, like that's, that's

0:55:15 Jake: Racist oh God, I love it, yeah

0:55:55 Thomas: Such a minor, the idea, is this like a national issue for you guys? Like this is literally taking up something

0:56:01 Jake: It truly is it. Truly, the the current government was almost partially elected on the premise of uh getting getting rid of 18C of the Constitution. And it's funny, though. There were all of these...

0:56:12 Thomas: That is a handful of cases a year. That is, see, that's the, the, the attention is being misdirected. It sounds like to

0:56:16 Jake: I know. But it's like there were a huge number of white nationalists that were out, you know, chanting, what do we want? More rights.

0:56:27 Thomas: Say the N word.

0:56:28 Jake: Who will we take them from? That group over there. It's really Unfortunate. Like, the white nationalist were truly out there wanting to reduce the impact of section 18C and D of the of the Constitution entirely with the premise that they want, you know, these white guys want more rights, these these white boys want to remove the protections that are enshrined in law to prevent people from, I mean, literally this law is there to prevent people from being dickheads. Let's acknowledge that, but it's also a law that sort of, to some extent, levels the playing field between, you know, lots of sets of dickheads.

0:56:28 Thomas: Oh yeah. Yeah.

0:57:12 Thomas: Yeah. I, you know, I, maybe I'll try to talk to Andrew about this because I'd be curious in practice how much different, different this would be than any sort of, I don't know. Cause I know in the U S we've got, you can't harass people. Like there might be some consequences for that. So maybe there's some blending of the lines, but I'd curious to find the cases that would be a crime in Australia. That wouldn't be a here. And what's the punishment is just some sort of, you said it was just enough money to cover legal fees, but that seems kind of weird because that would just get you to zero. Is there like a fine or a, some sort of no jail time?

0:57:45 Jake: There's no, so there's no fine, well, to some extent. There is no jail time remember that this is words. These aren't, you know, acts of violence. They're covered, obviously, by the criminal code, but these are words that are being said read in a particular way towards a particular people. And so generally it is a fine, but it is a fine based on the severity of the complaint. And in the cases that I read, you know, I could obviously be wrong here, I'm not infallible, but in the case that I've read over the weekend to sort of um look at this argument most of the cases uh the fines uh were uh in the order of about two hundred thousand dollars and considering this is a federal court so that probably would only cover the cost of the legal fees and say the court yeah and that's two hundred thousand dollars Australian so that's like five dollars American

0:57:53 Thomas: Yeah.

0:58:42 Thomas: $200,000. Wait, is this Australian dollars? I was going to say, what is it? Two to one? What is the exchange rate? I can't remember.

0:58:49 Jake: Uh, We're at 73 cents, I think, something like that.

0:58:54 Thomas: I mean, that's still a lot of money. That's, that's a ton of money

0:58:56 Jake: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know So, so, so is uh so are lawyers so So I dare say, look, in in most cases, I think, you know, I was reading not so long ago uh about the case of Andrew Bolt that I uh sort of mentioned earlier, uh, I think the uh the payout was something, something around 250 odd thousand dollars, and in that case, you know, he himself had uh a Queen's Council lawyer, so that's uh you know one of the highest levels of lawyers, um, he had a barrister or a couple of barristers on his side, and the complainants, which was a, it was a class action uh case, uh, I think they had a coupleof uh barrissters in a Queen's Council as well, so it would have been ridiculously expensive.

0:58:58 Thomas: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

0:59:40 Jake: Uh so that two hundred and fifty thousand dollars wouldn't go along

0:59:42 Thomas: But what about just typical guy on the street I mean that that sounds more appropriate for a broadcaster, you know, uh, Australia's most red columnist or whatever, but, but if it's just some, some, some asshole on the street yells something at a group of people of a different ethnicity, I mean, is he really going to get fined two hundred thousand dollars? And it seems, do they take into account, like, how, you know, okay

0:59:44 Jake: Yeah no Yeah. Yeah. So the the cool thing here is, and and and what I absolutely haven't said but probably should have is before they ever go to court, there is an arbitration process, uh, so what do they call it, you know, when you get two people uh into a room a mediation mediation, that's that's the word I was looking for, so it there is a complete mediation process where, uh, you know, the premise generally is what I want to do is to help you understand that what you did was inappropriate, so that you don't do it again, um, and so it only ever goes to court when it has failed that mediation process, yeah.

1:00:05 Thomas: Okay yeah that's that's arbitration okay sure that too yeah Hmm.

1:00:35 Thomas: Oh. That Makes a huge difference. Maybe that information could have been a little more useful earlier. No, I'm just teasing you, that, that's, you know, I have to say with it, and with how this is all set up, I mean, I really don't see that this is that big of of an infringement on free speech. I mean, technically, I guess it kind of is, you know, but again, technically we have some infringements on free speech here. You're not allowed to say just anything you want, obviously. I means, there's lines of fraud, there is false advertising, there is all kinds of things that you can't actually say. I don't know, this really seems, especially when you look at the numbers, seems like not a big deal, seems like something that I can't believe is a big issue, a national issue you for you guys right now. That seems like an incredible distraction on, uh, on, I don't know what your main, I

1:00:48 Jake: Oh, dude, Al,

1:01:30 Thomas: Don't know what they should be focusing on because I'm not Australian, but not that.

1:01:30 Jake: It's it's Oh, man, it's actually, it's so, it is so very the the political campaign that uh that uh occurred, I think it was probably, probably less than a year ago now, between the Labor Party, poorly spelt, L-A-B-O-R, God, it frustrates me, and the Liberal Party, was between white nationalist arguments. So, know, Muslims are bad. We need to prevent Muslim immigration. We need to water down Section 18C of the Constitution and completely disregard regard that there's a Section 18D, uh, we need to uh do some other stuff that's probably pretty racist as well, uh, we'll reduce the uh amount of of uh public funding, you know, social security that goes to homeless people and, you know, poor people and people living below the poverty line, etc. So, we'll, that's one side of politics is we'll do that, the other side is we want to make housing more affordable.

1:02:30 Jake: We want to make housing more affordable for the next generation of people who are probably unlikely to ever be able to afford housing. So it was truly a Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump experience before that ever played out. It was pretty amazing.

1:02:46 Thomas: Hmm. That's interesting. So, but thanks for taking us through that. Cause that, that is an interesting issue. For U.S.

1:02:50 Jake: You.

1:02:52 Thomas: Free speech fundamentalists, I'm sure it's definitely something, and I don't even say that disparagingly, like, I get it. In this country, we are very dedicated to free speech, obviously, certain people, you know, more than others, and I get it, but it's interesting to look at from a utilitarian standpoint, you know, is, is this really doing any harm that's not being made up for by the good that it's doing? I don't know. Something to think about. So thanks for presenting that. And you know, Jake Fart Warning, you've been my friend for years. I appreciate you coming.

1:03:17 Jake: Yeah. My absolute personal. It's fire warden. It's

1:03:24 Thomas: Oh, Jake, you've graduated. If you put the two together, actually, it could be interesting, but Jake Fire Warden, thank you so much for coming on to the 300th show spectacular. And thanks Thanks for being a friend of the show and hopefully, you know, continuing to do good stuff together. I love you, buddy.

1:03:24 Jake: Fire Warden. Yeah. Fart fire. Yeah.

1:03:43 Jake: I love you too. If it's all right, though, I would like to promote my new podcast. Is that all right? Yeah. So I've started a new podcast, it's about the intersections of atheism and reality. Suppose. It's called Speaking Atheistically. Also, I've started thinking about doing just a basic law show where I get on a lawyer and he talks about very basic reality-based... I'm calling it lawgasm, but I don't have a lawyer, if you happen to know any, if could...

1:03:48 Thomas: Absolutely. Yeah.

1:04:19 Thomas: Oh, well, you'd have to find an Australian one, I'm guessing, right? Hey, you Know What? What's your what's your proposing? Sounds like a great plan to me. Sounds like I would do it. Yeah, that's good. Do it.

1:04:21 Jake: No, they suck.

1:04:31 Thomas: Do the Australian version of that.

1:04:30 Jake: Oh, man, I I I love your shit so much buddy, uh, I, I'm, I'm so, uh, happy to to to uh hear you and, uh, I mean you are one of the uh two podcasts that I listen to religiously, uh, and I absolutely love everything that you do, um, you're pretty infallible in many ways buddy, I, I think, I think you're awesome, uh, so keep doing what you're doing now,

1:04:52 Thomas: Oh, Jake, this is far too much praise. I love it. Thank you for saying it. And thanks for joining me for 300. It means a lot to me. All There you have it for the 300 spectacular part two. Just wanna remind you that we've still got an amazing part three ready for you with Cognitive Dissonance and Andrew Torrez. Now, Andrew is He's going to answer some of the questions that Jake and I had in this episode, so we asked him for sort of the differences between the U.S. and the Australian law, very interesting stuff, that will be available to patrons ASAP, and, of course, other listeners will hear it when it's out on that Thursday that it comes out. Thank you so much for listening and for your very kind support. If you want that early content, patreon.com slash atheist. See I'll see you guys then.

1:05:00 Jake: My pleasure buddy.