AS296: Life in the Light of Death, with James Lindsay

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

[0:00:04] You're listening to Atheistically Speaking.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 296, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. All right, joining me today is a guest who's been on a few times before, James Lindsay. You may have recently on this show heard him debating social justice with Eli Bosnick. That was a big, big episode. But I want to let you know this recording is fantastic. It's on a different subject, so I know that was a heated debate. Lots of people very, you know, vigorously on either side. I just want to let you know that regardless of that, I would encourage you to very much listen to this episode through to the end, because we talk about some stuff that applies to all of us as humans, as atheists.

It's a really good discussion. So I hope you'll listen and don't be turned off in case you were, I don't know, on either side of that debate and are thinking it's more of that. It's not for today. We do talk a little about Trump because when we recorded this, it had just happened, and it was just really impossible for us not to talk about it. So we did that for a little bit, and then we talk about the main subject for this recording. So with that little summary done, let's get right over to my interview with James Lindsay.

0:01:53 Thomas: Joining me right now is James Lindsay, back for, oh man, third, fourth time, something like that. So, how are you doing, James? I'm

[0:01:59] good, and I don't know if it's third or fourth either, because that last one counted for like 100, so I'm glad to be back. Was the last one you did the social justice debate, or did I have you since then? I can't remember. It was the debate with Eli at the end of April. That was very, I'm still very proud of that recording.

0:02:18 Thomas: I don't know about you, but I'm glad that you battled it out and people listened and they liked it. It was long,

[0:02:24] but it was a good day. Yeah, boy. So, back before the world ended, we made plans to talk about your forthcoming book. And actually, it's kind of interesting that this is something you told me about quite a while ago, back when it was just an idea, just in the sort of planning phases. Is, I think off mic, you had given me, you know, a picture of what you were thinking as regards this. And you thought, you know, and I think you even said, I think I might write a book about this. And you did. And now it's called Life in the Light of Death. And we're going to talk about it. We plan to talk about it. But I think it would be pretty difficult to do so without at least talking a little bit about the election, because that's on both of our minds. And I know, well, I know we both have a lot to say, but this is my show, and I always say stuff. So how about

[0:03:14] you start? Well, I will start by countering something that you've said already. I don't want to argue,

0:03:21 James: But you said that before the world ended. I know it's a tongue-in-cheek kind of reference, but that's the thing I'm not ready for. I'm not ready for defeatism. I believe that it is now time, for real, to make America great again because there's something going on. And the way to do it is, catch this, stronger together. My opinion is that it is time for us to look to see what we can do to help build our communities. It is time to not necessarily just take up activism, but more importantly, to take up action, to get involved in local level politics, to get involved with volunteering and donating and helping direct.

If you write, write. If you record, record, and to try to make it clear that whatever's going on right now, we still have a clear vision of the directions that we want this country to go in. We do want America to be great, and if "again" has to be appended to that, it is what it is. And so it's, it's time to move forward and, instead of, it's, you know, being the end of the world, although there are some ways that might come to pass at this point that are a little too plausible for comfort, we need to make the best of what we've got and we

[0:04:30] need to stop acting like the sky is falling and put up a roof sure and and Yeah, and you're right that it

0:04:36 Thomas: Was totally tongue in cheek. But I, you know, I think we should clarify some things, because I've said this about Sam Harris, and I want to say it about you as well. And maybe you might even take some sort of offense to this.

[0:04:49] I'm just kidding. I'm hard to offend, but I'm fired up. Goes against everything you debate about. But anyway, I think it's important to point out, I really do, and I would like you to even talk about it for a minute if you can, how much you were against Trump being elected, because, you know, I don't intend this as any sort of like insult or anything, but I do think a lot of people who support what you say are Trump supporters.

I think a lot of people who are on the anti-social justice side, and Sam Harris saw this too, and we, you know, you and I both, I think, respect Sam Harris a ton. I love Sam Harris, but when he came out against Trump, a lot of his followers were pissed at him, and they still are, and they didn't get it. And it's because there's a weird intersection between being a little bit anti-social justice, which he is a little bit. I think you might even be more actually. I don't maybe just because the amount of tension that you pay to it, but, but it being sort of on the anti-regressive left side of things, if you want to put it that way, a lot of people on that side were for Trump. And, and frankly, people might be surprised to hear just how against Trump you you were.

[0:05:58] Do you think that's accurate? Do you think that's fair? Okay, so a number of things to say right off.

0:06:04 James: First of all, I don't want to give off any impression that I'm anti-social justice. I believe in social justice. I do not, however, believe in the current manifestation of social justice activism. There is a distinct difference between believing in the ethos of a movement and believing in its pathos. And I don't support a lot of the ways that the movement is playing out. I don't support a lot of its ideological basis, but social justice, absolutely. Do I think that everybody should have equal rights and be elevated and protected from abuses in society? Of course. Do I think that certain groups of people that are identifiable in certain ways may have systemic disadvantages put against them that need remedy? Absolutely. Am I for that? Completely. It's, it's more a difference of means than a difference of goals, and so I don't want to give off that impression, but as far as like Sam Harris and and his view about

[0:07:00] being against Trump, he said that he would prefer to roll the dice and take a random American over Trump if the choice was Trump or roll the dice on a

[0:07:13] random American getting thrust into office, he would. And And that's an extremely profound statement. That's a really big indictment on Trump. It is. And I not only agreed with that statement, I went, I don't know if it's further, slightly tangentially to it, and I said, for my own part, that I would, if it was given a competent cabinet, would vote for a magic eight ball for president instead of Trump. I could not possibly have been more against the election of Donald Trump to the presidency of the United States. And so, like Sam Harris, I have, because I've spoken about social justice activism in a way that is critical, do have a rather surprising number of people in my audience now who were Trump supporters.

And I am also, I live in the Southeast, and I am an easygoing person, and I'm very interested in what people think, and I like authenticity, and I don't tend to think people are liars or evil, so many, many of my friends are outright Trump supporters, and they have not been shy in articulating in very polite ways to me exactly why, and so I'm not against Trump supporters either, so I don't want to give off that impression. I did not want Trump to be elected. This will alienate essentially everybody because it's a point of difference that I apparently have also with Sam Harris. But I actually – hold your breath.

0:08:48 James: Get ready for a bombshell. I actually liked Hillary Clinton on her own. It didn't have to be she's not Trump for me. I've always kind of liked her. I thought she did a good job in the things that she had. A lot of people disagree with that point, and that's fine. I mean, that's what open communication is about, is being able to disagree and debate points. But my personal feeling is that it's always been, and I mean going back to the 90s when she was first lady, I've always had positive feelings about Clinton and her role in politics. But that's my opinion, and people are welcome to debate it or get mad about it or scream Benghazi at me or whatever they want to do. And I don't suspect that they're going to make me dislike it. It's not to say that I'm naive and think that she's just like the perfect politician. I don't think there are such things, but politicians are the relevant experts for politics, so it's hard to hold that against a politician. And I'm certainly not on board with this anti-establishment movement that seems to

[0:09:51] have swept across the political spectrum so much as I harbor reservations for neoliberal economics and neoconservative politics and think that their influence on both the Republican and Democratic parties in the US needs to diminish. It's not the establishment. It's some of the crap that they signed on to starting in the late 70s. I don't have a problem. I like the establishment because the establishment is established and makes things work, and things, I know a lot of people have been left out of the way the economy goes and opportunities and this and that, and I have been myself in many ways too, but ultimately America, contrary to what the the sky is falling people before the election have said, has not fallen off a cliff, and neither has the Western world, but now we're kind

[0:10:39] of looking at the the precipice and wondering what comes next. And I think that it was those, our commitment to some aspects of neoconservative and neoliberal thinking that have led us to that. And that's what I think needs rethinking more than whether or not we need an establishment.

0:10:57 Thomas: So then would you mind just articulating as brief as you want, or I guess as long as you want, like what can you tell me like what why did you why were you so against trump you know because

[0:11:09] Other people weren't. Other people kind of, again, you said your supporters, a lot of your following, we're not friends, and I understand why. They, well, there's different, I think there's going to be different groups of people, of course, but but why are you so against him, why were you so against. So there are two main things that I'll mention, I mean, among a litany.

0:11:28 James: I mean, the the end, we could could spend the rest of the podcast talking about reasons why I would be deeply

[0:11:34] uncomfortable, or would have been before the election, because now I just have to accept it and work with what I just am deeply uncomfortable. Yeah, exactly about the prospect of a Trump presidency. The first and most important one is that he is not only almost as unpredictable as a magic eight ball, he's vindictive and has demonstrated it for years. The second one is, and this is my favorite, or least favorite, whatever the right wording for awful but extremely poignant. I think there's a word for that in German or something.

Something, and uh, my favorite example of the irony here is that, I heard, if I heard it once I heard it eight million times, is that Hillary, I heard it like yesterday from a guy who voted for Trump, Hillary Clinton is the most corrupt politician to ever run for office in America. I don't know if that's true or not, there are reasons to believe that she had some big money ties and some other things, most corrupt is a high bar and historians would have to settle that matter, I think, but the trick on that is the word politician, because already in under a week Donald Trump has proven that he is more corrupt, yeah, as a human being than Hillary Clinton was as a politician, and so to say Hillary Clinton

[0:12:52] was the most corrupt politician to run misses the whole point of what corruption means, and now here we are watching him appoint one after another after another kind of crony to these different positions, and we have every reason to expect, that and hope actually in many regards, that his primary ambition as president will be to enrich himself, uh, it's corruption almost to the textbook definition of it. And so, because of his his unpredictability and a vindictive streak against his enemies, and then the fact that we are about to probably see the most corrupt administration, at least in a century, I was adamantly

[0:13:35] against.

0:13:36 Thomas: Yeah, apologies. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great answer. But I do want to cut in because you've just outlined what has been my frustration with the past, I don't know, I guess, well, by the time people are hearing this, it'll be a couple weeks. But for me, a week of people trying to explain what caused Trump. The number one thing about Trump voters is that they were were mistaken in

[0:14:01] what they thought Trump was. So how are we, I mean, all these people who are looking for who to blame, is it the left? Is it Hillary? Is it DNC? Is it social justice? Whoever it is, the bottom line is the people voting for Trump are wrong about what they were even trying to do. Like, even if you accepted all their complaints, like even if you just, if you talk to a voter, forget about the candidates for a sec, talk to a voter who voted for Trump, which you you said you have.

If you talk, why are they doing it? Working class, maybe the jobs are going overseas, whatever it might be, their concerns, the establishment, whatever it is, all that is not solved by Trump, like, at all. So, like, how is anyone to blame but either that voter or who, I guess, maybe whoever's responsible for misinforming that voter, which might be Trump, which might be the right-wing media, when the things they were voting to even try to accomplish there's no way Trump was going to do those things. Like you said, his cabinet is already a joke. It's already establishment, corrupt.

[0:15:04] It's everything that supposedly they were voting against with Hillary. Yeah. I mean, that's an

0:15:10 James: Extremely valid point. And the thing is that in a case like this, I think if we had a spinner, like, you know, the spinner people used to play Twister, and it goes to the different colors, but instead of different colors, in left hand, hand right hand, or whatever what it had was different groups that could be blamed for this, so, like, the conservative movement, the GOP elites, the DNC, you know, you just start naming people, Hillary Clinton herself, Hillary Clinton's campaign, Bernie Sanders's campaign, primary campaign, you know, you just put them all around, like, 200 of them around the list, and you spin the wheel, wherever the arrow points, some blame falls, and some self -reflection is needed, um, on.

On the other hand, I have a number of friends who voted for Trump, as I've said. Some of these are more sophisticated than others. The less sophisticated ones have said things to me that are utterly horrifying in that they seem to lack any grasp of American civics. I was told nearly immediately after the election, in fact, by a conservative who I presume supported Trump – he hasn't said so – that he didn't care who won the presidency because presidents can't do anything until they've been in for at least two terms. I don't know what to do with information like that. On the other hand, I have some very savvy, very smart,

0:16:31 James: Very well

[0:16:33] -meaning conservative friends who, in no uncertain terms, have told me they were voting for the Joker. They were doing it on purpose as a big middle finger to a liberal elite that has gone bonkers and to tell them enough is enough. And they said it, the way that I like to word it is, we know we might be shooting ourselves in the leg, but we took the risk anyway. Anyway, so I don't know how many people who voted for Trump voted for him on those grounds, but their vote was in many ways to quote the movies, Desperate Times Call for Desperate Measures, and impugn their assessment of the times or the measures all you want. That's at least what was going through their mind and it really doesn't do a whole lot to get too worked up about it. At this point, all that there is at this point is ways, is searching for ways to build bridges between people, have better conversations, do the listening that allegedly Hillary Clinton was campaigning on

[0:17:35] being so good at. And I honestly believe to move forward means to build a coalition that will probably necessarily have to be somewhat near the middle to move

[0:17:49] America forward in the coming two, four, and eight years particularly well.

0:17:55 Thomas: I, I don't know, I mean, I, I just, I just don't know if I agree with that, like the, the part that is so frustrating

[0:18:02] for me, and I don't know how long you want to spend on it, we can, we can abandon this if you want, but I mean, we're We're all going to die sooner or later, so. Oh, wait, we'll get to that.

[0:18:10] The, yeah, your book on death will be a welcome transition from this. It will be relatively cheerful, I think, yes. Okay, so that's right. The part about the listening thing is, look, If there were another side, if the Trump supporters, again, if they were even partially correct in what they were trying to do, there would be value to listening to them. Every measure of the country is that it's doing better. The lower income, a lot of people make it out to be a poor people's revolution for Trump. You know, lower income people voted for Hillary. There's no, the idea that there's even, you can't listen to a side

[0:18:47] that's conspiracy theorists. I mean, a high percentage of them are. I completely agree with that. And it's

0:18:54 James: Ramped up. I completely agree with that. So let me ask you a question so that we don't end up like kind of just going back and forth about this. Sure. The the campaign that Trump ran was Make America Great Again, that's four words. The critical question, I know what make means, I know what America is, and I know what greatness is. The question is what does again mean. And a friend of mine posted something very thoughtful the night after the election about again and trying to reconcile with it, uh, he's largely a progressive. And so his take on it was that he's confused because he looks back, as you were just saying, at all the ways in which we were worse off in the past and which America are they wanting to resurrect again. But there's another side to it. And until we understand why there was so much resonance in the slogan, Make America Great Again, then we're not going to be able to build golden bridges and we're not going to be able to come together as a community that can solve problems that we're going to need to solve. And I

[0:20:01] think the critical point about again is that many, many, many conservatives right now feel very detached or left behind or even scorned by a society that does not agree with them morally, even though they – I will say there are – to steal the word, there are legitimately deplorables white nationalists. I don't really have a problem calling white nationalists deplorable in their views,

[0:20:33] but there are a lot of people who are very well -meaning, very decent people who want to do their best. They don't want to offend gay people. They don't want to offend black people. They don't want to offend any minority group. They also don't want to be offended, suspended. Um, and for them, they feel like the rule book is changing faster than they can adapt to. You know, last year you couldn't call them Mexicans, you had to call them Hispanics, now you have to call them Latin or, and it just, that it doesn't matter what the rules are, it's just that they're changing and they change very fast, and that creates, you know, my previous book was about, about moral psychology in many ways, that creates a tremendous amount of psychological and and emotional dissonance that makes them feel cut off from their society.

If you take that and heap scorn upon that as well, it's going to cause disaffection. It's going to cause them to want to give it the finger. Oh, you don't care about me? Well, I don't care about you either. You don't want to work for me? You don't think I'm valued? I don't even know who I am anymore in this place. I want to be a good person. I don't even know how.

You tell me to do this. I try my best and that's not good enough either. And so there's that. There was a time that these people remember when they had a good sense on how to be decent people, and they no longer know how, even though they're trying, that is part of the again. If

0:22:00 James: You look globally, you see this huge conservative push against globalization, it's the same thing. They knew where their jobs were coming from, they knew what American manufacturing was about, they knew that Walmart sold only American products, they knew that they were going to have jobs, they felt good and productive and contributing to society and everything else positive that comes with being that as a result of that aspect of the nation they lived in and contributing to it. And that because of the death of the rust belt, which has followed largely from globalization, macroeconomics tells us that it does raise standards for everybody, it does make things better, it does drop prices, but it also causes turbulence in the employment market.

So now you have these people who took pride in being part, part of the manufacturing or industrial or commercial sector, who are struggling in a dying economy in their specialty that's being replaced with a service economy. So they used to, say, go to work and make shoes, something just completely quotidian. They went to work, they made shoes for a living, and they could make shoes and feel proud that they contributed to building something in America that would be sold in America to two Americans, so on and so forth. And that gave them a sense of identity and purpose. If you read about

0:23:20 James: Moral psychology, you'll see that this is really how people learn to identify with their communities. If you recall in my previous book, I talked about how a sense of identity with community is one of the key reasons people turn to religion, in fact. Well, take all that away and tell them, okay, you know, those jobs are gone now, but, you know, somebody's going to have to flip some burgers at Burger King. Somebody's going to have to pour some coffee. Hey, why don't you just bag groceries? You know, it takes those are all necessary functions in society. But if people watch their towns die

[0:23:53] and the jobs increasingly become the guy at Walmart, where there's very little sense of pride, and we can talk about all the forces that go into that. Did the conservative, you know, corporate agenda, big business agenda contribute to that tremendously? It's like, yeah, of course, but so did globalization, and these people feel very, very scared, very upset, and I'm not necessarily – I don't – I think we should have compassion toward everybody. I'm not telling you, though, like there's all this arguing. Should we feel compassion toward Trump voters or not? I'm not going to tell you to feel compassion for somebody. If you can do it, do it. If you can't, you can't. But let's understand what the hell they meant by Make America Great Again. Yeah, okay, back to a time, and they are scared about what the future pretends, and they want it to

[0:24:38] be like it was before, again. Yeah, this is, I'm gonna try to, because we're already past the time limit that I said, we're gonna try to, uh, I'm gonna try to answer in a way, I really am, to that, that won't, like, make you need to respond. Um, but, but I just, but I did let you go for a while. Okay.

0:24:57 Thomas: Okay, okay. But I will say, like, the overall theme of what I would say if I wanted to spend another

[0:25:03] hour talking about this, which, frankly, I would, but I don't know. Who knows? Just set it up. We'll do it in a few weeks, whatever.

0:25:09 Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. We'll see. Maybe we can gauge people's response to this and see if they want us to have a further conversation on it, because I would love to. I think it's really interesting. I would say, I think you completely nailed the description. It's just the interpretation of what we need to do that is where I would disagree. You know, it's where It's where we put our focus because of your description, which I think is absolutely accurate. I think it's totally true. But there's a difference in saying, okay, how do we change what these people are incorrectly thinking about the world versus, oh, they're rational in their view of the world and we need to somehow address those concerns in a way that's in line with that.

0:25:49 Thomas: And I'd add, thirdly, how do we deal with the fact that Trump doesn't even solve any

[0:25:53] of those problems? But that's how I would respond. So those are all legitimate points and questions. And I don't think we're actually

0:25:59 James: Going to be largely in disagreement about the details of that. So we don't need to dwell on it.

[0:26:05] All right. Well, very interesting. But I do really think answers in the comments. Yeah, sure. And I do

0:26:11 Thomas: Think you nailed the description. I really do. I think that's that's what's going on with a lot of, I do think behind it, you know, you've got a lot of misinformation about Hillary. I think that's a huge component of it. But I also think the bitterness you're describing would give people the ability to lend credence to crackpot theories about the

[0:26:30] other side more than— Well, yeah, those are proliferating big time, so. Okay, well, let's talk about death. Let's get—let's move on from this to something far more pleasant. You're going to die. Yeah, thank God.

0:26:46 James: So the goal of me saying that—I should say it again and again—you are going to die, is to actually invoke a feeling of mortality salience, which will actually make me more believable. So that's an interesting psychological point, mortality salience will cause you to be more open to any story or ideology that

[0:27:05] allows you to put it away for a while. So, you are going to die, buy my book. No, I'm just kidding, I can do a little in post, I can do a little, uh, you know, subliminal messaging, that kind of behind that, just over and over, like, but

0:27:19 Thomas: Yes, okay, so apparently we're going to die, and that's what, that's what your book is, that

[0:27:25] that's what your book is, accomplished, just let us know that we're going to die. Right now there's that. Yeah, actually, that's the goal. The

0:27:32 James: First half of the book is about that only, it also strips away the layers by

[0:27:38] which we try to hide from it or deny it or pretend it might be. What are some of those layers? So a lot of us just avoid thinking about it completely. We don't engage with the idea that we are going to die or the people that we are, that we love, are going to die. We just don't engage it. We in a sense tacitly pretend that the whole show goes on forever, and or more importantly, that we will always have more time. And it turns out to be this very odd thing because it's, it's something that immediately when you think about, you realize it's not true.

And yet you live your entire life exactly as if it is, most of the time. And so it really struck me, of course, to give you a little backstory, I thought about death on my own before I started reading about it. I didn't go into the reading of the literature or interesting things or stories about death and dying or hospice or any of that until well after I had gone through a very transformational period in myself just thinking about it. And I came across, when I started reading about it, a tradition. I don't know how widespread it is. I don't know – I'm not that deep into the ethnography of Bhutan. But the people of Bhutan have a saying that if you want to be happy, you should think about death for five minutes a day, and they apparently exhibit very low mortality salience. If you bring up death or dying, they don't get uncomfortable. They don't try to wriggle and worm out of that feeling. They don't try to deny it, and they tend to

0:29:04 James: Succeed in that by engaging in a realistic contemplation of their own mortality very regularly. They say five minutes a day, you know, whatever proverbs like that work out to be in reality is what it is. I've heard Buddhists say it's an hour a day you should contemplate your own death, an hour a day, if you want to be happy. And it's something we don't

0:29:25 Thomas: Parallels to like the stoicism movement as well with that, I mean, I kind of, I visualizing things like this in

[0:29:31] order to, I think there has to be. Yeah, that was something, I think that was, it was certainly prevalent in in Epicurean thought. So, So, it would be something, I think, that made it into the Stoicism movement as well. Yeah,

0:29:43 James: And of course, that is sort of, if you catch it between the lines, part of the way of how I advocate dealing with death is to think about it until it no longer bothers you. And so, yeah, it's connected. We also go deeper, though. So, if I say, you know, you're going to die, and you start thinking about it, and immediately you recognize, you know, I haven't been thinking about it, but yeah, that's true. The next feeling, and I, this often still catches me even though I've really gone down this rabbit hole, and so it's something that it may be a lifelong correction, is that you immediately start trying to think of ways that you might get out of it.

And a philosopher named Stephen Cave has a book and that I eventually got around to reading that talks about, how he also has a TED talk which is shorter than a book, and he talks about the way that we tell ourselves what are called immortality stories. That was based off of a somewhat crazy book written in the 70s, they got the Pulitzer, called The Denial of Death, which was by Ernest Becker. And Becker's take is that he was very Freudian in a way, and his take was that we all pretty much just obsess on various levels about avoiding mortality salience as much as we can because we refuse to face the reality of our our own termination. And so everything we do is probably motivated

0:31:04 James: By a fear of being rendered meaningless by death. And so Cave went on to classify into four categories the different types of stories we tell ourselves to avoid it. So we have these different kinds of stories, we say, you know, like, well, medicine might invent a way to live forever, so maybe we won't die. And you, maybe already thought that when I was, so you're gonna die, maybe that thought crossed your mind. Another one that's more common in religion, or another couple that are more common in religion, are to have the idea that we'll

[0:31:35] be resurrected. There will come a judgment day, and God's going to bring everybody back to life or that we'll be reborn in some new way, in some new life somewhere, or reincarnated. Another way is that we talk about transcendence. Death doesn't matter because we all go to heaven, and what we really are is some kind of a soul, soul. And a little bit more sober way to look at it is that, well, you know, we're going to die, but at least we can leave a mark on the world. That is, we can work for a legacy. And those kind of four themes are ways that we then engage on a deeper level with trying, trying to avoid just grappling with the reality that the life that we're living right now is the life that we get. And so what we do with our time matters.

0:32:22 Thomas: Yeah, that's interesting. So you just, but you just said that. So I, this is, man, I don't know how I can talk about this without getting too into my personal philosophy and everything. But that's what I struggle with, because I don't know how much I do what you just said, like looking for a way to stop it. I think there's a certain amount of the, like, oh, maybe leave a legacy in my mind. But for me, I just get depressed about it.

Like, I don't, I just think about it and then I go, yeah, that sucks. And then I'm depressed about it. Like, I don't, I don't think I do a lot of like denying, denial about it happening. And then I think my, what spurs my reaction to it is the idea that if I am going to die, which I am, and there's no afterlife, and there's no, you know, all this other stuff, stuff you talked about, that soul's not going to continue. There's none of that. Like, what is the point in doing anything? And I think it's interesting that you just had the opposite thought, which was because you have this limited time, therefore you need to, you know, what you do matters. For me, I've always struggled with that.

I've really always struggled with, like, no, I could just, let's say I'm going to die in 40 years. I could keep working my ass off and doing all this podcasting stuff and doing everything that I do and maintaining my job and do this hectic life that I have, and then die in 40 years, and it didn't matter. Or I could just do nothing

0:33:42 Thomas: For 40 years. And after I'm dead, it's the same. It's the same exact picture, like nothing, it doesn't matter. And that's what I struggle

[0:33:48] with on it, to be honest with you. I understand. And so, what I would tell you then is that you, like I had been accused

0:33:55 James: Of for a little while with this exploration, have rediscovered existentialism.

0:34:02 James: Where I differ, differ from existentialism, is that I have taken a, what we might call, profoundly humanistic term at the end, where existentialism eventually concludes the bitter truth is that nothing matters, which is kind of nihilistic. I don't think that's right. I think what it means, I think what the truth is, and I'm assuming you've read, I sent you, you know, the manuscript, I'm assuming you read

[0:34:27] it, but I, holy crap, life for like the last month or whatever, so maybe not. I was gonna say the, the election, uh, thwarted those plans a little bit. Yeah, it would, you say the election killed those plans? Oh, man, the jokes are endless. I would say those plans died. Yes, they did. Okay, so, uh, anyway, then I'll pop that bubble for you, without you reading it, how I wrote it. And by the way, I don't want, I, I don't ever normally do this kind of thing, but I have to say that the writing in this book, I feel like is the best writing I've ever done. I feel like I did a good job with the tone. I'm very, actually, proud of

[0:35:04] the writing in this book in a way that I've never been before. So I'm excited about that. But what I realized was, is that the question has to hinge not on whether or not things matter. It has to hinge on what we mean by mattering. And so instead, I have an entire chapter in the book that's called local

[0:35:23] purpose. Yeah, and the idea is that our, our, our error in thinking, the way that we end up leading ourselves to this kind of existential nihilism is is that we we think in a way that misses what's close by. If you have so somebody said this to me on Twitter talking, or somebody else said it to somebody else on Twitter actually, and I was tagged in it last night, talking about my book, and they said, if you have a nice meal, does the fact that that meal ended take away from it having been nice? And the answer is no, of course not.

And so what I concluded through my very long exploration, without – this is still before I started reading anything – was that if anything matters, and it sure seems like it does, it must matter nearby. So what matters? Well, that I have a pleasant life and my family has a pleasant life and the people I love can be supported in doing that. That matters. Does it matter like in some cosmic scheme? Is it going to matter in 10,000 years? No, it matters right now. It matters today. It matters tomorrow. It matters for a little while. But if you read through the part of my book where I try to really close off all escapes from existential horror, what you'll find is that the idea of things mattering at all is going to die also, the very concept

0:36:50 James: Of experience, the very concept of memory, is all also going to terminate at some point unless we are profoundly wrong about the nature of the universe. And so to end up walking the existential line, to feeling like nothing matters, and accepting that as some kind of supposed bitter truth of reality, is to completely care about the wrong things. It's to care about some great thing and forget the close thing. And so, I think, in fact, that is the fundamental horror of death, is that we spend our time caring about the wrong things, that we live our life the wrong way.

So, an example I give in the book of that is that if you think about death for a little while, all the rationale that you have for say not taking your kids to see the ocean for the first time, when you can afford it if you want to, you just don't really want to put up with the hassle of traveling with children or something like that, all the rationale behind that immediately falls apart when you realize how finite it is and what, what meaning that could bring to their life and to yours and that closeness, those local connections that build your life and give

[0:38:08] it, what that sense of what makes life worth living, all of those things are close by, and they're so easy to forget. And so that's really how it takes this existential line and then turns it at the end, almost with a j-hook, to straight up humanism, to caring about each other, to connecting with one one another, to finding and embracing love, to supporting our loved ones, to not necessarily indulging ourselves, but in honoring our own experience in life and in reflecting on what really matters and what we should care about, to choose better paths on the one walk through life that we get, not caring that in the end, because the end doesn't matter, not caring that in the the end it was all just an experience. I

[0:38:58] don't know that anybody's ever passed up a pleasant experience just because it's an experience. Yeah.

0:39:05 Thomas: Yeah, I you know, I should tell you, and I don't think I have, and so I should just that conversation

[0:39:12] we had, and that would have been boy, when would that have been, a year ago, or yeah, I would say it would probably have been last fall, maybe January or something like that. I feel like it could have been longer, but yeah, just that conversation where Where you outlined a lot of this, I think you said a few more things that maybe we'll get to later. That really did stick with me, actually.

[0:39:33] And what's that?

0:39:35 James: I've heard, so I've thrown this book out to about 30 or 40 people before its release for their feedback and consideration. And I keep hearing that. It's really connecting with people. I have people telling me that they are going to take their kids to the beach next year. I have people sending me very heartfelt stories about family members who

[0:39:59] have died and how I've connected with their with their journey in a way that's really helped there's another thing

0:40:05 Thomas: You said that I I imagine made it into the book but I didn't get through all of it, so I don't know. But you talked about, to

[0:40:11] me, again, I don't think it was on mic. I can't remember. See, that's the problem. I actually thought about that conversation about 30 times while I was writing the book and had wished that I could remember what I said. Well, a part that really got me was when you talked about how elderly people feel like it's kind of their time. And like, why is that? Why is it that they, you know, they're dying, they're looking death in the face, they're almost there, and a lot of times they're just like, yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready to go. I'm done. And it's not really, your explanation, which made a lot of sense to me, was that the things we care about are these like social connections and these experiences we have and that we share.

And when you get to a certain age and a lot of your friends and your family have died, a lot of people where you formulated, and maybe I've sort of added to this conversation in my head in the past year, I don't know, but a lot of people you formulate, when you were forming your version of meaning, maybe, you did it around a certain social network of people. And like the things and the accomplishments you have, and what you do, and all that, it mattered to a certain group of people. And you reach a time in your life when when those people are no longer around, things matter. Like, that's when it's like, you're not, you're kind of

[0:41:33] ready to go, you know? I mean, that's exactly right. And that's why our purposes must be local. Right, right, right.

0:41:39 Thomas: And what I think, to finish what I started saying earlier, I think what particularly affected me personally, and I'll just mention in case there's anyone else kind of like me around listening, is that I'm like a, I'm a really introverted person, believe it or not. People sometimes don't believe that, but they have some picture of me based

[0:41:58] on this podcast.

0:42:00 Thomas: And I really did take what you said, and it affected me. And I thought, shit, you know, like that's going to be an issue long term. Like, it's going to be an issue that I never, that I don't make as many of these local connections, you know, like that will, in a very meaningful sense, that will make my life less meaningful. Like, it will make my experience less meaningful. My life will not be worth as much to me, really, and to anyone, without as many of these connections. And it's

[0:42:31] hard because it's it's a hard realization you know because it's a very hard realization yeah for me it's it's it's realizing that the way I am is not really a good way to be in some ways. You and me

[0:42:43] both. You and me both. Yeah.

0:42:46 Thomas: But I think it also, I am going to make an effort to try to not have that be true, you know? And it reminds me, it's something that helps me remember to make that effort. Because I find it very profound. I think your theory and your philosophy behind this is, I'm very convinced by it, you know? I'm very so I don't know, I just wanted to tell you that, that it really did stick with me for this past

[0:43:11] year or whatever. Well, thanks. There's a couple of things, you know, um, you can't make old friends, that's that's true, and that

0:43:17 James: Speaks deeply because when you start to think about what an old friend means to you, it's how much context they they provide to you and who you are. And, yeah, what means things to you in in life. So there's that. But I also, of course, like I said, I started reading, after I came kind of out of my, I don't know if meditation's the right word, it was kind of more like freaking out, for a year and a a half. But when I came out of that long phase of contemplation, where I made up for all of the five minute a day times that I did not think about my own death, in the span of like a year or a year and a half, I started

[0:43:54] to read, and one of the things I read, or started, one of the kind of genres I started to read, I guess, was was hospice reports, things that people who worked in hospice said. And so, there's this one woman who's become a little bit noted for it, named Bronnie Ware, who worked in hospice, and she's got a book and a website about death and dying, and particularly the five regrets of the dying is something she talks about. And one of the things she mentions there is that she worked in hospice for many, many years, and every single patient she worked with eventually came to accept death in the end. Every single one of them. They stopped running from it sooner or later. And what it made me realize is

[0:44:39] that kind of what I had been banging on was, where supposing we don't get stolen in an accident, we all have this opportunity to where we can learn to accept our death and then live accordingly. And we can do that now. We can wait a little while, or we can do that right at the end when we have a few sick days or hours left. And if we're all going to do it eventually anyway, as long as we don't die in a surprise accident, why not do it now and let it inform our lives? And so that's sort of the message that I really wanted to convey with this book, is that we can realize that our time is limited, that our health is – there's another thing Bronnie Ware points out, is that our health is – we talk about social justice and all this and privileges. Your health is a privilege that you never, ever appreciate until it's gone. And she's quite lucid on that point, and how many people regret having not lived while they were healthy enough to do it. If you're thinking about taking your children to

[0:45:47] the beach. There I don't want I don't want to get all caught up, you know, how I feel about the word privilege, but you have having that ability is not guaranteed forever. It is not guaranteed tomorrow. And we can talk about statistics and draw graphs and say, oh, well, the probability you'll be able to take your kids to the beach tomorrow is, you know, really, really good. And but the probability you'll be able to take your kids to the beach when you're 64 years old is a lot less. And when the probability that you'll be able to a year later, if you're 84 years old, it's really bad.

And these are just fundamental facts of human biology and, I guess, if you want to be generous, the current state of medical technology. So our health is something we tend to take for granted because we're we we start young and supposing we survive childhood, we start aren't healthy for most of us. And if you talk to people who live in chronic pain or have lived with chronic disease or chronic disability or something like that, they all tell the same story. And it's not to take your health for granted, to take advantage of it while you can. And so it's just this big reciprocating message of, if you aren't willing

[0:46:56] to look and see what you have until it's too late to do anything with it, then you you've had a tragedy. You have committed the thing you are the most afraid of, which is living the

[0:47:09] wrong way, caring about the wrong things. I'm gonna try to I I I'm sorry to do it, but I'm going to be go a little nihilist back at you here, because let's let's say Trump got elected. Yeah, go

0:47:22 Thomas: For it ultimately what's still like I having just said, what I said a minute ago, which is I do take that to heart and I do, I am going to try to live a bit differently because of this book and, you know, the conversation we had a year ago. Ultimately, though, what are we talking about? Like, we're talking about, let's just do a hypothetical person or whatever, or two people. One, they're both, let's say they're a bit like me, maybe, and they have all this, like you said, I think it's an accurate description, privilege. You know, I'm very privileged. I got health. I'm privileged with my health and my well-being and I'm not super poor.

I've got all kinds of opportunities, all kinds of things. When I let's say I'm 60 or something thing and my health deteriorates and I've lost virtually all the privilege that we just talked about. Ultimately, what we're talking about is your mindset at that point. Like you're talking about, make sure you utilize this privilege, utilize this opportunity. Why? Because when I'm 60, the version of me that did utilize it will be happier? Is that ultimately, you know, like what you think? Or will it really not make a difference, because I'll still feel shitty when I'm 60 and don't have my health and all that, you know. And and and then, uh, furthermore, 10 years later or whatever it might be, when I'm dead,

0:48:43 Thomas: It will have made no difference. I asked I posed this question still still saying, like, still committing to the fact that I do want to take advantage of all these things and I do believe in your message, but I think that's the negative nihilist

[0:48:55] part of my brain that still says those things. What do you have any response to that? Yeah, you care about the wrong things. You care about if

0:49:02 James: That's that's kind of your motivation, you are taking the Thomas that is now and you're projecting to the Thomas that will be 60 or 70, and then that will be not Thomas any longer. And you are saying that, okay, so you want to avoid regret, and so you're going to live a certain way so that that Thomas doesn't feel bad. But I don't know exactly how old you you are actually, but there are 30

[0:49:27] you're 30. Actually, it's amazing. I was going to guess 30. Wow. Okay. So I'm picking I'm picking you do, you sound very 30. I'm going to pick lottery numbers later. If anybody needs them, give me a call, or just send checks really, actually, don't call me, just send it. Anyway, there there is a Thomas that's going to live tomorrow, and one the next day, and one the next day, and so on and so forth. And this is going to persist until you are, say, that dilapidated 60 year old if that's the way we want to paint

[0:49:57] that picture.

0:49:59 James: Although, if the Thomas that lives between now and then pays a little more attention and chooses a little better, that

[0:50:05] might not be the case quite so bad. But just to throw that in there, just to cut in, I am that is a part. I play hockey three nights a week, play ice

0:50:18 Thomas: Hockey and I got a guy on my team that I just asked the other day, I was like, "How old are you?" And he said, he was, he's like, I think he said 62. And I was like, "God, you are still pretty damn good." Really good hockey player at 62. And I was just like, you know what? Thanks for telling me that. I feel really good about life right now. Because maybe if I'm, if things are lucky, injury-wise, health-wise, whatever-wise, maybe I'll still be out there playing half as good as this guy when I'm that age. So, yes, that's, but anyway,

[0:50:49] I just wanted to you made me think of that. Go ahead. So it's easy to get lost caring about only

0:50:55 James: What the person at the end or the no longer a person after death ends that what it all amounts to for that but there that's the central error. I mean, Sam Harris had that talk, death in the present moment, and he's like, it's always now. Okay, yeah, it's always now, we're kind of reasonably guaranteed a little bit in the future. I'm not really one to like pee in Sam Harris's Cheerios, but, you know, statistics tell us that while we might die at any moment, we probably do have a pretty good bet that tomorrow is coming for most of us. Now, I don't think he's lost on that point. I'm not saying that. But the thing is, is the person that you are now, the person that you will be tomorrow, the person you'll be the day after that, for the next, say, 30 years, every one of those people become the sum aggregate that defines your life. And that life can be better or it can be worse. It can be more fulfilling or it can be less fulfilling, depending on how you take advantage of your opportunities. And so when you realize that

[0:51:54] you're going to die, you realize that life is filled with opportunities that each person that you will be along the way may prefer to take now Now, that's an invitation to a danger, which is actually kind of rising. They're saying that the next group of people who are going to be super annoying that replace the hipsters are kind of the feelies. And I don't really want to contribute to that. They're ones who like everything has to have, you know, the emotional salience turned up to like 11 all the time. Oh, my God. It's like the most meaningful thing. Look at the color of that sunset. It is so me like, oh, my God, stop. It's a sunset, dude. It's OK.

And so, I don't want to encourage those people because downtime, reflection, being lazy sometimes, indulging, putting on the YouTube video, you know, click, click, click. Oh, another one. Wow, it's 3 a.m. Why am I watching how, you know, iron decomposes in a pure oxygen environment? I don't care. You know, that whole thing. Sometimes that's very psychologically satisfying, but there are still better and worse ways to use our time. And life is the dance that is composed of how we choose to do that. There's also the fact that you can talk about living for yourself purely, but you're also living for everybody that's in those connections that you have. If you live a more happy and satisfying life, that will ripple out into those connections, and so you will elevate their lives as well. If you are supportive, they will live better lives, and that will ripple

0:53:21 James: Out into their social connection back into you included. And so by choosing to connect with people and to honor those connections and to build golden bridges across which people can come back and become friends despite differences, or close differences, or whatever the case may be, by doing that you can increase the net positivity in the quality of conscious experiences as they unfold for yourself and the people that you care. And by extension, the people they care about and so on, with some kind of attenuation.

[0:53:56] So it's not this magical exponential explosion of the math person, and he's coming out. You get what I mean? Yeah. There is this kind of ripple effect to being more happy and satisfied and cheerful in life, to having taken opportunities and, you know, learned the lessons where they need to be learned, or to have enjoyed them where that just happens to be what came out of it. And that has, if you want to to talk about, you know, a higher power or a greater thing, I know you don't, but a lot of people do, um, that's sort of what it is, you know.

The the sum total of what we have while we have it, and we all only have it even humanity itself has only for a little while is the only thing that means anything. So if we look where meaning is which is in the experiences of people while they can have them, or the net experience of humanity while it lasts, then it's it's very difficult to think, wow, nothing means anything, because everything that you can connect with, or that can elevate your life, or that can help elevate somebody else's, suddenly

[0:55:00] takes on a lot of meaning. Yeah. Oh, we're coming up on time. That's fine. Yeah. That was

0:55:06 Thomas: Really well said and I appreciate that answer. And I think for me personally, just to put a quick button on that, I do think it's a psychology thing. I've said this before related to something similar, but not quite exactly your book and your philosophy. But I do think that the two people can take the same concepts about life and death and about meaning and all that, and know what all the words mean, know what all the arguments are, know what all the statements are, but not feel it. You know, like one person might feel it and the other doesn't. And I do feel like I have that problem. And that's something I deal with. But I would recommend this book to people, I really would, because there's a lot just in that that conversation that you and I had that I've carried with me, as I said before, and I can imagine there's going to be a lot more in the book. So, James Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on. The book is Life in the Light

[0:55:56] of Death. I will have, is there an Amazon link I'll be able to put in the show notes yet, or is it? Oh, yes. The answer is yes. Yes. So, I will get that link there. People can buy it there. Really highly recommend people people check out

[0:56:09] your book. Thank you so much for coming on, James. Thanks again for having me. And if we talk again soon, that'll be fun. And I'm sure. Yeah, absolutely. Me too.

0:56:21 Thomas: We'll see if, yeah, listeners, let us know if you'd like us to have a conversation. Well, I'll have to try to gauge the how, you know, how just totally overwhelmed with Trump coverage people will be at this point. I don't know. But drop us a comment if you'd like a longer conversation, uh, from the stuff we talked about earlier, but I, I for one would love it. So, uh, thanks again for coming on James and, uh, until next time. Sure thing.

[0:56:46] Thanks.

0:57:11 Thomas: All right, that's it for today's show. That's it for this week. Thank you so much for listening. I really, really appreciate your listenership. I got to thank two brand new patrons. Thank you, Jamie Berg and LPDHappy. Thank you so much for your pledge. Before I thank my all-time greats, I want to let you guys know that over on patreon.com slash atheist, there will be some interesting content for you soon. Some of you may know from Facebook interaction. Again, you can add me if you want on Facebook, Thomas Smith, you can find me. There was, I did a recording with Eli and two other gentlemen. It didn't go well. It was very, it was bad. It was ugly.

0:57:51 Thomas: It was, I haven't decided what I'm doing with it yet. I need to release some part of it in some form. It was way too long, two and a half hours. I may just edit down to what might be one serviceable episode worth of interesting interactions. But no matter what I do, I'll make the full unedited cut available for patrons. So just wanted to let you know. That'll be sometime soon over on patreon.com slash atheist. A little reward for everybody pledging. Thank you so much. Now I got to thank my top patrons, and they are Hunter Ash, Sammy, And actually, Blackhawks are playing the Sharks tonight. So we'll see which way that arrow sign should go. We'll find out. Out. I say tonight as of recording this, you will already know because you are all Big Sharks and or Blackhawks fans. You'll already know tomorrow. All right, thanks again for listening. Have a great Thanksgiving to my American friends, and

[0:59:08] I'll see you next week.