AS289: Abortion Clinic Escort, Michelle

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 289, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Today, I'm joined by someone who does a job that shouldn't exist, which is escort people to abortion services, seems like, should be completely unnecessary, seems, like, in a country, in this country, anyway, where abortion is legal, you should just be able to go get your abortion services but, no, that's not how it works, and she's here to sort of explain how it does work, and it's kind of scary, it's really shocking, actually, to to hear just what it's like to try to get an abortion in certain areas of this country. Michelle was a little nervous to come on the show, I think you can hear that a little bit, I, I understand, sometimes it's a little scary to be recording, uh, if you're not used to it, but I wanna thank Michelle for coming on and really telling us everything about what she's doing, uh... I think it's fascinating, so let's get right over to that interview.

0:01:37 Thomas: Joining me right now is Michelle. How are you doing?

0:01:40 Michelle: Hi, I'm doing great, Thomas.

0:01:42 Thomas: Alright, now I'm gonna note, I'm going to ruin it and say that's not your real name, but I want to talk about that because there's a reason that you don't want to use your real name. Why don't you go into that a little bit? And the reason we're talking today.

0:01:51 Michelle: Correct. The reason we're talking today. So I am a clinic escort at an abortion clinic, and I help run our group here in North Carolina. And the reason I don't want to use our name is because we have a dedicated group of regular anti-choice pro-life protesters at our clinic, um, you know, a small group of them are there six days a week, almost every day, and they get to know you and they want to find out things about you to use against you. Um, so I just want to protect myself from them getting any information about me. Well,

0:02:34 Thomas: Absolutely. What are some of the kinds of things they've done in that capacity, like trying to mess with you or people you know? No.

0:02:42 Michelle: Mother's Day weekend, I was away on a girl's trip with some friends and I got a text message that one of the regular protesters, he was actually the like head honcho guy, had posted a picture of my car license plate on to Facebook. Facebook, he posted it onto my son's preschool's Facebook page. Yes. So the way they did it, it seemed like they thought I was a teacher who was protesting at a abortion clinic in my spare time

0:03:03 Thomas: Wow. Whoa. Oh, like they thought it was, yeah. Okay. Like they thought they were getting you in trouble or something.

0:03:23 Michelle: Right Like they were trying to get me fired or something, but I don't know any teachers who have free time. So that, but that was their tactic. That's what they did. All the comments that they had were, of course, from their people, not even in North Carolina, where we are, but they were from like Texas and Oklahoma, like all over the country, just these people that follow these, this pro-choice or pro-life group. Luckily, I had the phone number for our preschool, um, director, and got them on the phone. Um, they were really cool about it. They really didn't give two shits about what I do. And, um, the school itself was diverse anyway, like they, they during the month of December, they spend a week talking about Diwali and they spend a week talking about Hanukkah, like, because that's the right thing to do. And B, because that represents their attendees.

0:03:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, right.

0:04:27 Thomas: Right. Well, that's good. At least I'm glad that nothing, nothing came of that, but, um, just goes to show some of the tactics these people are using. Let's talk about, so you had originally emailed seeking maybe a little bit of legal help from Andrew Torrez over on Opening Arguments. So I saw it and I thought, oh, this is something that I've always wanted to talk about on Atheistically Speaking, because I don't think I've ever talked about it. Like, what goes on? Because, you know, here in California, I don't think it's as big an issue. I'm sure it is maybe a little bit, but not anywhere near what it must be where you are. And so I wanted to talk about it, what it's like for you and what you're doing. And why don't you tell me about your story a little bit? How did you get into this? What's involved in it? All those things.

0:05:00 Michelle: Okay.

0:05:11 Michelle: I actually never thought of myself as like a or someone who's a real advocate for pro-choice or for women's rights. I mean, obviously, I'm a woman and I want to be able to be treated equally, but I've never gone about it in an activist type way. I'm part of a Facebook group, though, and one of the organizers for our clinic escort group had posted, hey, we're doing a training. We'd really like to have some more support and help out here. We help women make it to their, um, appointments at the abortion clinic, and we, um, just are there to support them.

So it's like, oh, like that's like a really easy thing to do and, you know, who else is going to be there to support these women and they've made a really hard choice, I think now that I've been doing it for about six months, and the newer people that we get in, like their first reaction is, I had no idea this was going on here. They think it's going on in bigger cities or, you know, that is just not happening in your town, and it is, and it's really, really big.

0:06:03 Thomas: Yeah.

0:06:26 Thomas: Give me me the details of what is happening. I mean, what, what are the kinds of things that you're helping with?

0:06:31 Michelle: So, I mean, as clinic escorts, what our job is, is to provide a calm voice, reassurance, physical security for these women who are seeking abortions at the clinic that we volunteer at. Real big emotional support. I mean, just seeing a friendly face. The patients, as they're driving into our clinic, driving down the street, there are two large RVs that are mobile ultrasound units. The first one is this big purple bus, and the women that work it and drive it wear purple scrubs. Um, needless to say, one of the hospitals and, like, doctor, um, office groups around here, their color is purple, so it looks like, like they're with that group, run out into the road when any car drives by, surround the car, and try and get you to stop.

0:07:24 Michelle: And once they get you stopped, then they start saying, hey, the doctor's not here yet. We would be glad to go ahead and pre-check you into your appointment. And you can come on the van here and we'll get your ultrasound started. We'll get get your workup started. And then when the doctor gets here, then you can go onto the clinic for your appointment. Needless to say in the state of North Carolina, it is not illegal to impersonate a doctor or a nurse.

0:07:50 Thomas: Really?

0:07:51 Michelle: The only thing I could find it was illegal to impersonate is a police officer or law enforcement official.

0:07:57 Thomas: That is really scummy. I can't believe what they're doing there. And, and I can imagine that, I mean I could imagine very easily falling for something like that if you're in a, especially if you're in a state where you're, you know, you're about to make a really rough decision that I'm sure is kind of affecting your, your mind a little bit and you're feeling kind of vulnerable.

0:08:01 Michelle: Yeah, right.

0:08:17 Michelle: Yeah, these women are are already in a vulnerable state of mind, they're very emotional, they're not prepared for this gauntlet of protesters, um, clinic, when they were scheduling appointments, at one point they just kind of side noted to patients like, "Hey, like just be aware there might be protesters when you get here." And they saw their appointment, um, their appointments just dropped, people wouldn't show up for their appointments because it scared them so

0:08:43 Thomas: You give me an indication of how many options do women have in that state for places they can go to get this done?

0:08:51 Michelle: Right now in North Carolina I believe there are six abortion clinics and three of them are in this city, uh, one of them is about to close down at the end of the month, so like within the week they will no longer be taking appointments. They are open only two or three days a week. Their costs are higher than some of the other two clinics. And I think the woman who owns it is just ready to retire.

0:08:59 Thomas: Wow. Now, why is that?

0:09:20 Thomas: It can't be that easy of a job, I'm guessing. Can't be.

0:09:24 Michelle: No, no, it's not very easy to be an owner or an operator of an abortion clinic. Not many people want to work with you or help provide services for you, like cleaning services or provide water in your, like, you water coolers, stuff like that, like easy simple stuff that you would think is not a problem is a problem.

0:09:25 Thomas: Wow, oh yeah, yeah, I wouldn't have even thought of that. Yeah, that makes sense. Sense. So there's not many options for women in North Carolina.

0:09:50 Michelle: Yeah, not many options. We have women come as far from, as far as Georgia. Georgia you can only have an abortion up to like 16 weeks, I believe, or 14 weeks is the cutoff. So once they are outside of that range in North Carolina, you can obtain an abortion up to 20 weeks. So we do get a lot of women who have traveled an hour or longer. I mean, is probably about a four or five hour drive, say, to Atlanta.

0:10:24 Thomas: So, and, and what's interesting is they're making that long journey for not even that great of an option in terms, it's not like they're going to a place where it's going to be really easy and painless and in terms of the, you know, the, the backlash that they're, yeah, it'S like, they're still going to do a place where there's protesters and where there'S, you know all this stuff happening. It'S really, that must mean there are not a lot of options at all anywhere near those areas.

0:10:37 Michelle: You emotion side Right, there's not a lot of options. Well, and you have to think too, like if you're of a certain class, some obstetricians and gynecologists will perform abortion services in their office and be discreet about it, but if you are on the lower income of things you may not have a regular doctor. You may not have a doctor who's has the time to provide a service like that and be discreet about it.

0:11:02 Thomas: Hmm. Oh, okay. Yeah. And again, I really, really do know nothing about this. So I appreciate you said that because I wouldn't have thought of that either. That's interesting. So if you're a little better off, it's kind of easier to get it done maybe wherever you are discreetly. But if you're not, you're going to these clinics because it's a cheaper option.

0:11:18 Michelle: OK.

0:11:33 Michelle: Right. Because it's a cheaper option. I so if you are well to do and have a Doctor who will prescribe you the abortion pill in his office, then, you know, then you're going to do that instead of going to one of six clinics in the state. But that's not an option for everyone. Like, that's the thing that really kills me is like, the women who are there, who are 10 weeks and under can get the abortion pill, and most of them do. But that's the thing that kills me most about it is like they they have to go to the doctor to get the pill. And then they're like they still have they to go through this gauntlet of protesters to get medicine. I mean, they're not even there for a procedure, really. The doctor, you know, they verify with a sonogram how far along they are. You have to take the first pill at the abortion clinic and then you go home to take the second pill.

0:11:48 Thomas: Right. Yeah, Okay.

0:12:31 Michelle: Just there to get medicine, like, you could be able to go to the pharmacy and get that, as long as you had a sonogram. I

0:12:32 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, no kidding. So, back to how you got into this. It sounds a little bit like you just sort of stumbled into it. But it's

0:12:45 Michelle: Really did. I really just kind of stumbled into it. And then at time that it happened, things were kind of chaotic within the group and the organization. So we've recently kind of reorganized and had to ask one of the former ladies to not be involved with us, so I am now like in the organization team. And yeah.

0:13:08 Thomas: Something that as you started helping people, were you just like, wow, I just need to do this because who else is going to?

0:13:16 Michelle: Right, yeah, as I started doing it and seeing the patient faces as they were coming in and just even hearing what the protesters were saying and all the vile things that they yell. It just, I don't work. My son's in school. I have nothing else to do. So if I'm not there, who else is going to be there?

0:13:37 Thomas: Wow. Well, I am really glad you are doing it because it really sounds like... I mean, without the services that you guys are sort of providing, how tough do you think that makes it for women to exercise what really has been established as a right legally? How difficult is it?

0:13:55 Michelle: I think it's really difficult. I mean, especially on the weekends, there's more protesters out there, they have more time, you know, um, to be there, and you're already in such a state where you're not sure where you're going, because the clinic doesn't have a big sign that says, this is our clinic name and this is where we're at, um, it's an unmarked building. All it has is white numbers on the building to Give you The address.

0:14:19 Thomas: Right. Are they trying to keep a low profile, you know, because of the same reasons?

0:14:20 Michelle: Yes, yes, yes. Just I for their protection, I feel, I mean just the history of violence towards abortion clinics, you know, below profile. But yeah, I mean, there's these big RVs, there are signs, there're people on the road trying to stop your your car. I mean, honestly, if I was going there for services, I would, I mean even the first time I went there and there weren't protesters, I went on a Sunday. It was still like, okay, where am I going? Where's the building? I had no clue where I was Going. These women aren't from this town mostly. They just drive off and be like, well, you know, figure something else out,

0:14:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:15:04 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it's almost effectively not illegal, but impractical in a lot of ways. They're rendering it very, very difficult, if not impossible, to get these services.

0:15:14 Michelle: Right, right. Um, so, and that's part of what we do. So, um, on a typical day, we, as escorts, we stand at the, at the entrance to the driveway and flag down cars and wave them into the parking lot. I mean, you can kind of tell who's looking for the clinic and who knows where they're at. Um. Cause there are other businesses around, unfortunately. And they, they fly right by, they go fast and drive through all the protesters. But the people who you see them drive around a few times, they're driving slow, they'RE looking around, they'RE confused. I mean, we get out there and wave them in.

0:15:37 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:15:58 Thomas: And I assume you're differentiating yourselves from... I mean, do protesters try to ever look like they're you guys and kind of trick people that way?

0:16:01 Michelle: Yeah, yeah. Right. Sometimes they do. So we wear bright neon fluorescent vests, like traffic signaling vests that say, pro-choice volunteer or pro-choice clinic escort, something that kind of differentiates ourself. It doesn't always make a difference because women are already in a frenzy. They're not going to be reading your shirt. They could care less what your shirt says.

0:16:14 Thomas: Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah?

0:16:32 Michelle: But if I can get your attention and kind of point to my vest, it says pro-choice, you know, or just even a friendly smile mile and a hand waving them in the driveway, they're going to feel more comfortable. Essentially our job is to help women in from their car to the door of the clinic, but there is so much other stuff that goes along with it.

0:16:43 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:16:51 Michelle: Um, we sign pledges not to engage with the anti-choice protesters. Um, so like we try not to make eye contact with them, but

0:17:00 Thomas: So you're not having shouting matches or anything like that.

0:17:04 Michelle: I'm not there to debate the legality or the morality of abortion. I'm there to help the patients. So, I mean, there are times that I want to yell. And, um, before we signed that pledge, I did yell out to them, But I didn't feel any better. That's the thing. It just makes you more riled up and more more angry. And it just, I just, I left there that day more pissed off.

0:17:10 Thomas: Yeah, it yeah, there's no, I, one of the things that's so interesting about this issue to me is, in some ways, I get it, because like, if you, if it really was your view that murder is happening, like I, I kind of get it. Like I don't, and that's why it's so difficult. I've said in past episodes, I really wish everybody more openly argued about it. You know, like, I don't know what, what the solution is, because if, if, just factually speaking, and this is a problem with lots of arguments, not just, just this one, but if, I'm say coming from a part, a point where I think literally murder is happening and, you know, and you or somebody is coming from a mindset where you think, no, this is totally fine. And it's like, there's no way to reconcile that, you know?

0:18:18 Thomas: And it makes sense to me that I don't know what to do. Cause it's, it's almost weird to try to, and I'm sure this is what you've found, if you yelled or tried to argue with them, how, what would you say? I mean, it seems like the two groups just, they just say their thing, like, no stop murdering. And then it's It's like, no, you, it's not murder. And then that's the, it isn't nobody's, you know, no it's, it'S so, so I understand, I guess, why there's these diehard people. I just, it's scary too, because I can't imagine what someone might do if they come from that mindset, you know, and clearly it's happened before that there's been violence. There's been, you know, and it's, it, it scares me.

0:18:50 Michelle: Right. Right, yeah. It is scary. It's honestly something I try not to think about because if I let myself think about the possibilities or be scared of them, then I feel like I'm letting them win. I mean, these women are coming to the clinic regardless, know, if it's mean not safe as in like the procedure is safe or like clean or anything like that but like if it's like the location of their bodies like if that's safe for them if someone's gonna attack them or tackle them or shoot them with a gun like I just can't think about stuff like that.

0:19:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:31 Thomas: Yeah. It's, I, it certainly is a very brave thing you're doing. And I'm wondering. No, I really think it is like it's it's scary. It's something that you don't have to do. No one's making you do this. It'S really I think it's really commendable. And I hope that, you know, I hope hope that the organization continues to be strong. What can we do to help? I mean, what can someone over in California, you know, I'll be honest, I'm not going to go over there and physically help. It's a little too far. It is a bit of a drive. But what can we do? Is there anything we can do as listeners here?

0:19:33 Michelle: Right.

0:20:10 Michelle: I Of like what you said earlier, just talk about it. And even on like the, if it's murder question, but more on the legality of it. Like this is a legal medical procedure for women to obtain and like outside a clinic protesting isn't doing anyone any good. Like I would have less of a problem if they were out helping homeless or helping orphans or helping adoption agencies, like anything other than yelling at women and harassing them for getting getting legal visits. I mean there's really not much can be done from afar. I mean if you, we, we do have pro-choice protesters that go out there kind of on the other side, so like helping with supplies. I mean, like, there's really not a whole lot that you can do if you're not there. Honestly, yeah.

0:21:03 Thomas: Okay. Well, that's too bad. But so there's no place to donate or anything like that?

0:21:09 Michelle: So We are actually, um, like right now we are, our, our organization team, we're evaluating the pros and cons of becoming a 501c3. So Kind of starting a non-profit and raising money. Um, there are groups that do things like pledge a protester or just like, like t-shirt fundraisers. And then we would use that money to help patients with any unexpected costs that they need for their procedures. Like if they need sedation and they weren't aware of it, or if they needs certain medicine. Some women need this thing called Rogam, I think.

0:21:20 Thomas: Oh, okay.

0:21:48 Thomas: Rogaine.

0:21:48 Michelle: And it has to do with like blood type. So like if the mother is a negative blood type and the baby's a positive blood type, like you have to have this medicine. There's no way you can know that unless you have a blood test done. So kind of unexpected cost. And then we'd like to be able to help the patients with travel expenses. I mean, staying in a hotel for one or two nights because your procedure is two or three days long, I mean that can add up fast if you have a family who's traveling with you. Gets Um, really expensive, really fast and gas money, you know, you kind of the obvious thing, but, yeah,

0:21:50 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah.

0:22:27 Thomas: To keep us apprised if you end up going that route with the organization. Maybe the listeners can help. Let's What, what's happening, uh, with the, with the protesting? I, in your email, you outlined a little bit of that. Why don't you go into that?

0:22:35 Michelle: Definitely. Right now, I means, like I said, we have these, the same group, this group is called Cities for Life and they're kind of all over the country. So Cities for life in our area, It's kind of an offshoot of this other group called Operation Save America or Operation Rescue America.

0:23:01 Michelle: And so these people have been out at our clinic protesting for about 15 years and the police are aware of them. The police know the leaders and who these people are and they don't ticket them. Them. So one of the main things that we try to do is apply for a sound permit for the address of the clinic. So the protesters, if they get the sound permit, they can set up their speaker and get on there and turn it up and yell at these women through their speaker.

0:23:35 Thomas: Hmm.

0:23:35 Michelle: If they turn it up loud enough, you can hear them inside the clinic, so whenever we get the permit, which which hasn't been happening lately, we get the permit and we don't use it. We just block them from access to it. We recently asked the police department for an audit of how they award that sound permit. And then all of a sudden we started getting it, that has been nice. In fact, we had the sound permit this past Wednesday, um, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. And it was so amazing. It was so quiet. So I got there Wednesday morning and they had the speaker up and they were talking on the speaker. And so I pulled out my phone and started taping it, you know, number one rule these days, get a video of it. So I got a video of them on the speaker. And then I pulled out, uh, downloaded a decibel meter on my phone and like screenshotted some pictures with the decibel reading on it.

0:23:48 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:35 Thomas: Without the permit, there's a limit to the, to the decimal, decibels that they can do, okay?

0:24:37 Michelle: And Right. So, um, if you have the permit, you can only go up to 70 decibels. They're routinely at 85 and 90.

0:24:46 Thomas: But Are you talking even

0:24:50 Michelle: When

0:24:50 Thomas: When they don't have the permit at all, or when they have it? Okay.

0:24:53 Michelle: They have it, they're above it. Um, and so this day, Wednesday, they didn't have the permit, we had it. Um, so you did, my due diligence went down to the administration, administrative office, and got, um, the copy of the permit in our name and called the cops. Um, I will say that was kind of a beautiful sight, because the, um, the man who set it up admitted that he set it up and that that is their routine, that, of course I set it up.

0:25:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:20 Michelle: That's what we do every day, and to the cop he said that. And so he got, a I think he, I think it ended up being a warning, but, he, it's a start, um, normally they wouldn't have even, the police wouldn't even written a ticket, so that's like a small win, that's a small victory, it feels kind of good having that. Um, I have to say, too, like one of the, one of the organizers for the, for their side, for the, the anti-choice protesters, he's been at this 15 years. He knows the law. He knows knows the rules. He makes his living suing municipalities for violating his First Amendment rights.

0:25:23 Thomas: Yep. Oh.

0:26:01 Michelle: That's what this guy in this organization do. They've made their living doing it and they've been successful at it.

0:26:08 Thomas: So, Is that you Suspect that's why the police are kind of easy on them, because they don't want to be sued again, yeah.

0:26:08 Michelle: Right. And, and because, yeah, this group has lawyers and they'll go after you. Um, we don't have lawyers, so not yet. Um, so, uh, but this guy started verbally attacking the officer, and I have it on video, and I haven't recorded, and just standing there and seeing the, like, laser eyes come out of this officer was beautiful to me. Um, we've tried to work with the police in the past. We have, like, let them know, you know, hey, they're going over the sound limit, they are blocking the driveway, and blocking cars from entering the driveway or stopping them in the middle of the driveway. And that's another tactic, they'll stop people and then, you know, starts a chain reaction. So there ends up being a line of two or three cars stopped in the road, blocking people from entering during

0:26:22 Thomas: So

0:27:08 Michelle: The clinic parking lot. And that is a federal offense. And I mean, also a North Carolina offense.

0:27:15 Thomas: And have you had success when calling the police on this, or mixed success, or how's it been?

0:27:20 Michelle: We haven't had any success with that. But like, so we've tried working with the police, one of my fellow organizers has scheduled to to meet with the local precinct captain, and he says it's a waste of resources to write tickets, that then they would have to assign more officers to that area. And he's also admitted that he knows that some of his officers who patrol that area and come when called to the clinic socialize on their off hours with these pro-lifers. So, I mean, I don't know what can be done about an admitted conflict of interest, but it's not really surprising being that we live in a southern state.

0:28:00 Thomas: Yeah. It's so, so they're almost admitting to you that they're just not going to bother enforcing the law that's on the books.

0:28:09 Michelle: Yeah, it's no worth their time to write a ticket every time they go over the decibel limit, it, but you know, like the first offense is a hundred dollar fine, any subsequent offenses are a thousand dollar fine.

0:28:23 Thomas: Yeah, no kidding. I was going to say, normally, police are pretty good with writing tickets, especially in California.

0:28:23 Michelle: Right. I mean, to me, I think, okay, if it was a house party in the suburbs, they would be writing tickets right and left, but they won't do it for us. There's also laws on the books in North Carolina that you can't obstruct the entrances to a clinic, you cannot make threats toward the staff or towards the patients. And you cannot possess a weapon during a demonstration outside of a clinic, that was broken yesterday. A gentleman who was there to protest got out of his car and disarmed and left his weapon in his truck. I don't care if he has it on him or not. And it's a, we live in an open carry state. But just the fact that he had a, a weapon in his car at a abortion clinic demonstration is against the law.

0:28:36 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:29:16 Thomas: That's scary. Yeah, that's scary, so what's the status of that? Did you guys report it? How did it go?

0:29:22 Michelle: So the clinic administrator called the police. She has also been working with a local federal official. So she made him aware. But the police just came out. I had taken pictures of all the license plate tags parked on the street. That's another scare tactic they use. They will write down all the license plate numbers that come into the parking lot as identifiers. So it was busy yesterday. I decided to do the same thing. Took a picture of this guy's truck. We sent it to the officers and they just drove around the block where our clinic is located, parked in a neighboring business parking lot, and I, I don't know that anything was done, but I also haven't received any update if anything was down.

0:30:12 Thomas: Okay. Okay. But in general, so your question is, is I think if, if I can summarize, focus around what can you do when the police are just not really doing their job? You know, there's a law, uh, you report it and they're kind of like, eh, well, we don't want to do it for, for the most part.

0:30:19 Michelle: Right. Right. And a big deal, but it's also not a big, big deal. I mean, I realize there are other greater things going on in the world, greater injustices going on in the world, and in our city and state, um, it's, it's an ongoing thing, I mean, this has been going on for 15 years. Yeah.

0:30:47 Thomas: Yeah. Well, it's functionally, again, like I said earlier, I mean, it is making, it's taking away a legally established right. It seems to me, uh, through, through intimidation or or it's threatening it at least.

0:30:55 Michelle: Um, there's a federal law than it's a, the FACE Act. It's the Freedom of, Freedom um, of Access to Clinic Entrances. And it was signed into law in 1994 by Bill Clinton. And so that's the thing that, like, you can't damage the property of a facility. You can't block the entrances, you can't, um, the intimidation tactics that they're using, this law prohibits a majority of them. Yeah.

0:31:22 Michelle: I don't know, like, if we would do better appealing to the police to enforce federal laws or appealing to them to enforce the state laws. I don't know what's in their jurisdiction and what's not.

0:31:20 Thomas: Okay. So Hmm, well, after this goes live, I'll see if one Andrew Torrez can answer that for us. Hey, if, you don''t mind, Why don't, you talk about, some of the other issues, facing women's health, that, that you mentioned in the email?, Thank

0:31:48 Michelle: Are things called trap laws, and those are targeted regulations against abortion providers. And several states have these laws on book on their books and they're enforced. Forced. Um, if you think back to Wendy Davis in Texas, her 13 hour filibuster and her shoes that raised a bunch of money, I mean, that was a filibustering against, uh, a bill in Texas that, um, made them have access to, um, surgical ambulatory centers to have an abortion.

0:32:27 Michelle: And and it would also require that doctors have admitting privileges to their local hospitals. Neither are needed to have an abortion procedure done.

0:32:38 Thomas: Right. These are laws that they're trying to pass to just make it harder to, to even have abortion.

0:32:42 Michelle: Right. To make it harder. Yeah. So, um, last June, 2015, North Carolina passed a law, um, that increased the waiting period, period, when you, from the time you schedule an abortion and have counseling, from 24 hours to 72 hours. So it went from a one day waiting period to a three day waiting perio. So depending on how far along you are in your pregnancy, you could be going from a $500 procedure to a thousand dollar procedure during that waiting period, yeah.

0:32:43 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Oh, okay. Yeah, it makes a difference money-wise. That's a lot of money.

0:33:18 Michelle: Makes a difference money-wise and just having to schedule time off from work and just, just general access to... I mean, if I had a cold and called my primary care physician and he said I had to come in three days, like, just absurd.

0:33:24 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:34 Thomas: Right, I think I've talked with Andrew a little bit in the past on this. There is a, the, like, there is the waiting period for, uh... Second Amendment stuff, stuff like gun rights. And, and that, I wonder if it'll be connected at all, the same logic, which is as long as you're not unreasonably, you know, like conflicting with the right, then it's okay. Cause there is a waiting period for buying a gun. And it's funny how, you conservatives are against that, but they're, you know, of course for a waiting period for this. So it is clearly, it's just, you know, it'S a tactic and, and to be fair, I'm sure anti-gun people would say, yeah, yeah, it's just a tactic to try to have fewer people have guns. So it's kind of interesting. Yeah. So these laws are still being passed. They're still, are they, is there anything pending that you're, you're looking at or?

0:33:56 Michelle: Heard. So, last seems like with any conservative legislation, it's like one state gets it and then they send it on to the, the next state and just change a few words and then try and pass it in the next state. And that seems to be what's happening with these trap laws, especially in the South. And there's a law in Mississippi that a doctor has to tell you all these risks that are involved with having abortion. And it sounds so scary, but it's the same risks that are associated with continuing a pregnancy, you...

0:34:29 Thomas: Hmm. Right.

0:34:50 Michelle: And there's a movie, there's an awesome documentary that was just released called Trapped, and it's available to watch on Netflix. Yeah.

0:34:57 Thomas: Oh, excellent. Yeah.

0:34:58 Michelle: Highly recommend watching that. It goes through all the different laws in different states, and they really profile, um, the last three abortion clinics that are open in Alabama. And then there is only one abortion clinic open in Mississippi, and it's called the Pink House in all of Mississippi, and it's in Jackson. Yeah.

0:35:17 Thomas: One in all of Mississippi. Definitely

0:35:22 Michelle: And I'm from Mississippi. I'm, I grew up there and it's just so sad to see. I'm so glad I don't live there anymore, but it'S so sad. To see that the only option is either to go to Tuscaloosa, you know, somewhere in Alabama or Louisiana or drive to Jackson. And I

0:35:23 Thomas: Makes it tough. Oh. Okay.

0:35:41 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. That it's incredible. Well, Well, I, I really commend what you're doing. Thank Um, you so much for coming on and giving us a picture of what's going on there. All

0:35:50 Michelle: Thank you so much for having me on.

0:35:51 Thomas: Oh, thank. Thank you, Michelle. Not your real name. Thank you. And, and it's seriously, stay safe out there. It's scary, but what you're doing is amazing. And seriously, I can't, on behalf of America in general, thank you for the thing you're going to do to ensure that women have access to these services.

0:36:08 Michelle: Yes. Great. Well, thank you so much. And yeah, it's a it's rewarding for sure.

0:36:19 Thomas: Well michelle thanks so much for coming on really appreciate it

0:36:22 Michelle: Welcome. Thank you so much, Thomas.

0:36:45 Thomas: All right, once again, big thanks to Michelle for coming on, and doing that, and facing danger, like, every day, for, for no reason, just to be nice, it's really cool, that's amazing, not too many announcements, I would say, if you could please go to, survey.libson.com, slash, atheist, fill out that little survey, it takes two seconds, seriously, it really takes, like 12 seconds, and I would appreciate it a lot, please fill that out, thank you to everyone who has, much appreciated, I think that's it for today. Don't need to bother you with a bunch of boring announcements. Let's just call it a show. Thank you for listening and I'll see you on Thursday.