AS277: Tommentary on the Harris-Buress Trainwreck, Kaepernick and More

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 277 and I'm your host Thomas Smith. All right, got a commentary show for you today. Lots of stuff that I plan to talk about. We'll see how much we get to. It's always a battle, but... chat first off, I did have a number of people saying that they did want me to do more More commentary and analysis on the Smalley episode. I also had a few that were like, nah, move on, so I'm going to split the difference. I'm just going to say a couple small things about it, which are in no way meant to prolong or expand the controversy or whatever. I just want to address a few common comments that I got because, literally, it just hurt to have the most comments on anything I've ever gotten and not be able to talk about it on the show.

0:01:15 Thomas: So that is absolutely the only reason I care about doing it more, because I just want a chance to respond to just the overwhelming number of comments. So I hope you'll indulge me on that, but it's not going to be the whole show, just a brief thing. But first I just want to give a quick little summary of my overall goals and vision with this show because I got a huge influx of new listeners and I really appreciate that and I just thought I'd take this small chance to just explain a little bit about what I try to do here. Areas of disagreement. That's what I'm most interested in. I kind of, I usually try to leave the obvious things to other shows, um, and just try to pick that as my niche that I'm just, I like to pick the things that are, that we're not going to agree on that.

0:02:04 Thomas: We're, you know, you and I are going to probably have a few different ideas about maybe half of us will totally agree. Maybe the other half won't. That sort of thing. Not to say I don't always do a freebie now and then, because sometimes something is just so ridiculous or so prevalent or something I feel like I need to address. Then we'll have an example of that today, because there's something that's really killing me that I just have to talk about. But I suspect it'll be an area that most of us agree on, but we'll see. We'll see how it goes. But that's what I find interesting. I do really, I don't shy away from those controversies, you know, just the thing, like abortion, for example. I had an abortion debate. There's a lot of secular, atheist, Anti-abortion people.

0:02:50 Thomas: And I would say that I'm somewhat sympathetic to some of those arguments. Ultimately, I think if you listen to those episodes, you know where I stand. I'm totally in favor of abortion being fully legal, but I think there's some interesting gray areas to discuss and it's a tricky issue. Some people don't appreciate looking at the nuances of certain issues. They kind of want you to be all in. And that's something that I think is a huge problem and something I want to talk about briefly. So actually, maybe I should hit that Tom and Terry music real quick.

0:03:28 Thomas: On a recent episode of the Sam Harris podcast, which I highly recommend, I really, really enjoy it, he talked about a conversation and a run-in he had with Hannibal Buress, and I thought, that's an odd pairing, I don't know why they would really be in contact or how they would have interacted, but it turns out they both went on another guy's show that I think also might be a really good show, I've never heard it before, but based on the way he talked and the thing he was trying to do, I think it could be a good one, so I'll plug that too.

Too. It's called We The People Live by Josh Zeps. I Is his name. I hadn't heard of it, but he seems like an interesting guy, seems like a good show, so check it out if you'd like. I want to talk about what happened. I'm not going to go too deep into it, this isn't a full game film breakdown or anything, but essentially what happened was Sam Harris wanted to talk about some statistics involving police shootings, brutality, Racism, what was going on, you know, that sort of thing, and very quickly, Hannibal Buress had a problem with Sam. Am. And I don't even really want to go into judging that or saying who was right or wrong. I'm most interested in this particular dynamic that's happening. It seems to be that Hannibal's biggest complaint was that Sam was just citing statistics and wasn't maybe being as sensitive to the real people involved.

Now, Sam assures us that he is sensitive to it, that he didn't, you know, he's making all these announcements sometimes, but he doesn't think they should be necessary because we should be able to say, for example, 3,000 people died in 9-11 as a statistic, he says, says, and not worry about like not recognizing the humanity of each person affected.

0:05:11 Thomas: He But I really think, however, whatever happened, and Hannibal was also really drunk, so that there, that could be part of it, but for whatever reason, Hannibal was put in a position where he saw Sam Harris as on the other side, essentially, and I'm interested in that. I'm interesting, and again, I'm not even, I don't want to make any judgments about it, whether he's right or he's wrong, or Sam Harris is right or Sam is wrong. I just, there's an interesting thing I've been thinking about, which is when the stakes seem to be so high for these things. And with a topic like racism, it totally makes sense. I get that the stakes are high. So I think what's happening is. The stakes of the conversation are set so high, i.e. if Sam Harris turns out to be a racist, let's say, let say you don't know Sam Harris, you're just talking to a guy, when you don t know what side he's on, he hasn't declared allegiance to a side yet, he just starts talking about the issues.

0:06:09 Thomas: Issues. Now, I think if we were all robots, and it was just a robot utopia where two robots talk to each other and discuss things, I don't think this would be an issue. I think Sam would start talking about stats or issues or make a claim, and until he said something that Hannibal directly disagreed with, then it would be fine. And I'm talking about Hannibal Bot. Hannibal Robot. And Sam Harris Robot. They would just discuss the factoids, and then as soon as something was different, they'd say, you know, does not compute, let's figure out what's different here, but humans are nothing like that, unfortunately, or maybe it's good, I don't know, humans are something like that, they, when, when you don't, when you're Hannibal Burris, if, if you're in that situation and you don t know Sam Harris, and you don't know what he's about or what side he's on, the there's wide range of what Sam Harris's could be, he could could be sort of a racist apologist, for all you know.

0:07:04 Thomas: And so Hannibal, I think, is on the lookout, is kind of wary, is like, what is this guy's deal? And when he catches the slightest hint that Sam is not on his side, I think what's happening in a lot of conversations these days is that that sets off such an alarm bell that you need like a declaration of... uh, loyalty or something or like allegiance to the side, like first, before we discuss anything critically, we need to know whose side, we declare our allegiances. So, you know, and I think Sam is coming from a position where he doesn't want to do that. He doesn't think we need do that. He said also he tried it when he had Glenn, African-American, who he talked about this kind of stuff in a very direct way, but he gave all the allegiance declarations ahead of time, Sam did.

0:07:56 Thomas: So, Sam's argument now is, even though he did that, even though gave all these declarations of, you know, Black Lives Do Matter, whatever, that kind of, the joke version would be, I have a lot of black friends, but it's not that. That. It's Black Lives Matter. There's systematic racism is a huge problem. Giving the normal, okay, here's what, here, I'm establishing that I'm one of the good guys for, you know, that's what we're forced to do all the time in this conversation. And again, with good reason, I think. But Sam said he did all that and he still got nothing but grief over that episode and over his discussion of statistics on that episode, and what his view is, and all that kind of thing. So I think he's decided that he's not really going to bother with that, although he still had to do it several times in the conversation with Hannibal.

0:08:46 Thomas: But that's what's so interesting. I think this one of the most justifiable places for that, so since the stakes literally are so high, since a given stranger could be a racist, someone who either justifies racism against black people or actively discriminates or could even be someone who perpetuates violence against people based on the color of their skin, those are high stakes, so I get it, it's a very, can't risk it, you need that declaration of allegiance beforehand. But I think that a lot of conversations that are had in this day and age go with that same thing. I mean, whether it's, I don't know, Republican, Democrat, whatever it is, we're doing a lot like you need this 100% fealty to the cause first. You need to declare all that and prove it.

0:09:33 Thomas: And then you can start maybe criticizing stuff and having a conversation. And I just think that is kind of bad. But I also think it's incredibly understandable. So I think it is a barrier, but I'm, I don't, I'm not offering a judgment on it one way or the other, because I'm in Hannibal Buress's shoes. I don't know what he's had to deal with. I get that it's, I get where that's coming from, but ultimately I do think it is a barrier to discussion. I think that is a hindrance and And if anyone else listened to that podcast and was wondering what went wrong between Sam and Hannibal, that is kind of my take. I think maybe alcohol was a factor and the way Sam speaks is a factor. And I think sometimes, maybe for better or worse, we do need to declare allegiances, but that's what I think went wrong.

0:10:19 Thomas: And it happens a lot. It's not just that conversation. It happens in any, the minute someone says something we don't quite like, there's the immediate process of, wait a minute, where are your loyalties? What do you actually think on all this stuff? Are you not one of those people? Are you're not one of those people who thinks this? Are you you're not one of those people who things that? That. We kind of go through this process of making like accusing and making sure someone doesn't think these things that we think are incredibly dangerous. And it's really kind of a shit show when we do that. It doesn't really go well. So that's my opinion on what went wrong there. And maybe as it applies to the broader conversations we have.

0:11:10 Thomas: Well, on to another conversation that maybe didn't go so well. Let's talk about the Smalley episode for a minute. Boy, first off, 159 comments on the post at current count. Just incredible. So many more on Facebook, so many tweets, so many emails. Thank you guys. I'm overwhelmed by the response and I appreciate the criticism, the chance to learn from anything I might have done wrong. So I really appreciate that exchange with you guys. I want to clear up just a couple quick things that that went through a lot of comments, so just, to I think it'll be good to mention these things here, and then I think, my first ever blog post, I might maybe go into more in depth on some of these things, or we'll see, maybe I'll find another topic. But anyway, one thing a lot people said was, oh, it was unfair to have you and Andrew on with David. That was at David's request. I just, I want want to right away put that out there.

0:12:05 Thomas: David said, I can record. When can you record? Bring Andrew. And I said, well, I'm not sure. In fact, one time I did say, well, I can do this time, I'm not sure if Andrew can. And he said, well, Andrew needs to be there. So David insisted. And we were happy to oblige, so that's why that turned out that way.

The next thing I want to talk about that a lot of people said, I think of the ones that were critical in any way of me, a common thread was, one of them would have been, I got in the way when Andrew and David were trying to make peace at the end, and others said suggested a similar thing, which is that I didn't, I could have done things to make it go better in general, and there were certain phrases that I want to talk about, like certain people saying, I really hope there's a reconciliation, or that kind of thing, and the overall, what I think is interesting about this is, you heard the way David came on the show, he came on and announced that neither me nor Andrew meant anything to him in any way, shape, or form, not that we should have, but that we meant nothing to him until it started costing him a couple ducats, and then he was, then he wanted to come straight in the sound, so. So.

I would like to offer that as a reason why I wasn't particularly interested in a resolution for the sake of a resolution. Now, I wasn´t trying to keep a fight going. I wasn ´t trying do anything. I went in there with zero, Zero, basically. In terms of expectations, of course, I already had all my views, I had the things I said, I get all that.

But in terms of what do we need to have happen here, I think there were people who were maybe fans of both David and I, and Andrew, who were thinking like, oh, I really need them to make up, I I really need them to agree or to agree to disagree or do something like that.

0:13:49 Thomas: And so I think there's an interesting difference in perception coming from two different areas. I went in with none of that. Now, I also, I didn't go in thinking I want an enemy of some kind. I didn's go in. I didn go in and thinking I need to have a more of a fight. David, you know, reached out and I merely wanted to give him his time to say what he wanted to say, whatever he wanted to say on the show. That could have been, oh, I messed up, I'm sorry, but Thomas, it really hurt me when you laughed at me for the things I said. And I would have said, oh you know what? I'm sorry, sorry that it hurt you that I laughed at you. I apologize. That would have been a way it could have gone. Or he could have said any number of things. But I didn't go in there thinking thinking, whatever David says, I need to make it right.

0:14:35 Thomas: And I think that's why. Certain commenters, and again, this was actually a very tiny minority, I should make up, far and away, the consensus was, let me just lay this out, the consensus was David was completely out of line, Thomas was probably a little too hot under the collar, and maybe he didn't react the best, and Andrew was perfect. Those were basically, that was the consensus. And I totally appreciate that. I, I did get a little too mad. Wish I hadn't gotten that mad. Uh, it was infuriating. Incredibly I will say what triggered me particularly was someone saying, you accused me of being drunk and you misrepresented me. And then I say, well, I didn't, show me, you know, play where I accused you being drunk. I said, maybe he was drunk.

0:15:20 Thomas: That's not an accusation. That is merely speculating and saying, ah, maybe, he was, that's clearly clearly meant to be an offhanded comment or a joke or whatever. But the fact that he kept saying it over and over when I said, I didn't accuse you of that, stuff like that did get very frustrating to me. And I did end up showing more anger than I would have liked. So I apologize for that. And by apologize, I mean to you guys. I'm not apologizing to David for that. It was highly frustrating and I reacted in a frustrated manner. But there were a few people who thought, oh, you know, I should have been able to reconcile. And I think that would be the ultimate difference in expectation between me and those particular listeners. And you're free to judge me for that and hold that against me. Like, you're- you're to think, oh I should've reconciled.

0:16:07 Thomas: Some people have a sense of like, oh, for the sake of atheism or something, for the sake of like this community, you need to reconcile so you can work together or whatever. And I would just like to point out that again, we did not matter in any way shape or form to David until until we cost him a couple dollars, and so it's not like there was any great relationship we needed to preserve or keep in shape or, and I don't even look at it, a lot of people are, well, not a lot, but some people looked at it as, oh, you have, you should be working together to fight against a common enemy of some kind, and I, I don't find that appealing at all. I mean, I'm, I am here on this show to give you my, my opinions and to bring you interesting guests and and to question them and to go interesting places intellectually. That's, that's what I'm here to do.

0:16:53 Thomas: I mean, there are some times where I'll want to make a statement in support of something, or maybe I'll have somebody on who's a member of a cause of some kind, but I'm not, my number one loyalty is to getting things correct in my mind, to reasoning rationally, and I'm, I'm, I'm not saying I'm perfect at it. I'm saying that's what I'm trying to do. That's, that is my only goal. I'm going to sacrifice rationality for the sake of preserving a relationship that didn't exist anyway. So I wasn't, that's why I jumped in when I thought Andrew was being way too unfair to himself and partly to me and way too generous to David, and David was eating it up and kind of taking advantage of it. That's why I jumped in and prevented that, even though it might have been a nice storybook happy ending where we could have said, ah, we all made mistakes.

0:17:42 Thomas: Let's be friends. I was not interested in that. I am far more interested in what I believe the truth to be. You guys are absolutely, absolutely free to question me, challenge me on that anytime. And you do. Plenty of people do at all times. There's no such thing as doing a topic where I don't get disagreement from you guys, I don't learn from you, we don't learn from each other, that's what the show is, and that's where my loyalty is, it's not...

I don't need to make common cause with anybody to fight an enemy if I think what they're saying or whatever it is violates what I believe the truth to be. I'm not gonna put that aside. So I think that maybe should explain that. Thank you for watching. One more objection to my behavior that I want to talk about and sort of apologize for is that I got a comment, maybe one or two, that said I really needed to reach out to David initially before doing my first episode I did on him, and I do agree with that. I totally agree. Boy, I can't remember if I did apologize to David for that on the show. I think I did, but if I didn't, I am very sorry that I didn t reach out. Now, I would like to explain my reasoning to explain that, but I am ultimately, I did the wrong thing.

I should have sent an email, if for nothing else, for the sake of having sent an e-mail and being able to say, I tried, now I'm going to talk about you on the show. So it is true that I did take it from the perspective that I didn't think David would ever hear it. I didn'T think he'd care. But the reason I didn't ask him on was because of how Alicia and David reacted at the end of the post.

0:19:22 Thomas: And that's something I don't think is on the PDF. What ended up happening in the original exchange is Eli came on, got into the mix and tried to say, Hey, no, Andrew's a great guy. He tried to make peace. He said, he's a great guy, have him on the show, have them on the show, talk about it. And Alicia sort of acting in a capacity of a dogma debate, at least I perceived her as doing that and she did work for David Smalley at the time. She doesn't anymore and she's actually apologized for what she said in that post publicly to Andrew. She did it on Facebook. I don't even think that was necessary. I certainly bore her absolutely no ill will. I just took it as it was. But she did express an extreme sort of dislike of that idea that he would come on the show. Maybe I shouldn't say extreme. She was very sarcastically like, this is not going to happen.

0:20:10 Thomas: And that doesn't sound like a good idea to have him on the show, et cetera. And because of that, I just took it for granted that no recording with David and Andrew was going to happen. And I still think I was wrong. I still Think I should have said, I need to send this email. I need To give it a try. So I do apologize for that. But that was my reasoning. And there's plenty more I could say, but I think I've already spent way too much time on this at all, because it really should be a nothing. That's the overall thing. This should have been a nothing issue. It really should have been. And it's my view that the best way for it to have become a nothing issue is A for David to have engaged better, of course. You guys already know I've been critical on how he engaged Andrew to begin with, especially after the first post where maybe the the first one you give David, which I even said, I understand the first post, but after Andrew explains he's a lawyer, that sort of thing.

0:21:05 Thomas: But the second best way for this to have been a nothing issue was for David to just merely apologize for his actions. I mean, and recognize that If he recognizes that there was something wrong with the way he was engaging Andrew, which he seems to have claimed to have kind of done a little bit, if he recognized that, I think he should also have been able to recognize that country, I can, on my show, can talk about how he messed up, and I can give my opinion on it. It doesn't feel great, but, I mean, I feel like those things exist in a compatible way in the universe, and they're fine. Fine. Someone can make a mistake. Someone else can say, hey, I think this guy made a mistake, maybe poke a few jokes. I know, I get it. I get that laughing at someone never feels good.

0:21:51 Thomas: I totally get that. But if you say, "I made a mistakes, that makes the whole thing go away. I would have said, and I said it several times, if at any time David had just said, "I'm sorry, I was, well, not drunk, but I was tired, I was whatever, I reacted badly," end of the issue, there would be none of these podcasts would have happened, and that's the way to make this a nothing issue. But what makes it an issue is that I don't think, based on the, the non-pologies we got from David, that he thinks he did anything wrong, and I think he thinks the way he engaged was totally fine, and that's, that's where it makes it into a bigger thing and not just this little tiny interaction that shouldn't matter, that makes it into a bigger disagreement, and and that's why it persists.

0:22:36 Thomas: But hopefully it is absolutely 100% done, because I'm moving on, sorry if that was boring, but I just, really, 160 comments or whatever, I just had to say something, but hopefully that should be the end of everything that we ever have to say on this.

0:23:15 Thomas: All right, now here's where I talk about a freebie. Here's where I totally go against everything I laid out at the beginning of the show and talk about an issue, I don't know, maybe it's not a freeby, maybe it's something that we all 100% agree on, I'll be interested to hear, but it is something that frankly is so outrageous, and it's something that's such a broad theme with what's wrong with some, the worldview of a lot of people on the right. Not, not everybody on the right, but a lot of them, and enough of them to where this is very vocal, and it's something I want to talk about because it's such a, I think it's a fundamental worldview issue that could really be cleared up pretty easily, like conceptually, I can clear it up for them right away, not that that's going to do anything, but, but it's all about this Colin Kaepernick thing.

0:24:02 Thomas: I really don't think I need to explain it, 22 second version, he's not a very good football player anymore, he is a quarterback who used to be quite good actually, but I don't know what happened to him, he second string if that, might even be third over, no I guess he's second for the 49ers, and he's been sitting or kneeling during the national anthem instead of standing. Ending. Now, in my mind, that's the end of the story. Maybe you want to add, oh, that is interesting, why is he doing that? Oh, he's doing it because, I don't know, Black Lives Matter, all the statements he's trying to make. Oh, okay, cool, end of story. I cannot believe how much that is not the end of the the story, and that is what is so incredible to me in this day and age in our country.

0:24:48 Thomas: Anyway, let's look at some of the things that have happened. I mean, just to speak generally, obviously, you likely have seen the outcry. It's a conservative selling point. It's how dare you disrespect the flag. That's the general feeling that we've all experienced. Let's look at what one person in particular, future president of the United States, in all of our nightmares, Donald Trump had to say about it. Let's see.

0:25:10 Clip: Following 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick refusing to stand for the anthem, he talked about both you and Hillary in his comments yesterday, had bad things to say about both, you and, Hillary, you following that story at all?, Well, I have followed it, and I think it's, I think, it's personally not a good thing, I, think, I , think, It's a terrible thing, and, you know, he'll, maybe, you should find a country that works better for him, let him try, it won't happen

0:25:42 Thomas: That little clip comes from the Dory Monson Show. I've never heard of it, but I might as well cite my sources there. Yeah, that's a completely inane response. What I love about Trump so much, and again, Sam Harris skewered him so badly. Listen to Sam Harris' latest episode. He went even further to just lambast Trump for how much of an idiot he is and how dangerous he is, and for the fact that Hitch, as much as he hated the Clintons, would vote Clinton over Trump. Don't let anyone be confused about that. I mean, don't take it from me, but it's my opinion based on hearing Sam Harris talk about it that that's absolutely true, and it's consistent because he talked about voting for Hillary in '08 versus whoever the Republican would have been at that time when they were in the primary process.

0:26:28 Thomas: So, I mean it's a, he clearly would have made, Hitch clearly in my mind, clearly would've made the sensible pick and not gone with a complete just narcissistic madman who has no grasp of anything. Thing. But what I love about this answer is it's so clearly he hasn't thought about it. No one is, he is not, the thing that I heard about him being terrible at studying, he's unwilling to put in the work Trump is. He's not going to put him in the work on any of this stuff. He is just going to give these off-the-cuff answers. He will think of something and wherever his thought process takes him, that's where he is going to be. This is the least planned answer I How thoughtful is it? Oh, well, I think it's a bad thing. I think it's terrible thing. And, you know, it's not a good thing. Like, incredible. Great. Really, really, really good take there.

0:27:14 Thomas: That was, that was, uh, that was a good take. Uh, that was a, that was a great take. Really good take there, Trump. There. That's, that's my opinion on that. That is my Trump-esque opinion on that. But how completely obvious is it? How completely obvious, is the rebuttal to this? It's so obvious, you can't even, why? We shouldn't even have to say it. If Trump's view is, you don't like this country, you leave, and yet his entire campaign is built on not liking this country and wanting to build a wall, wanting to change this and that, get rid of all the, the completely obvious response is, if you don' like it, why don't you leave? Why Why don't you leave, Trump? Find yourself a better, go try to find a better country. It's this dumbass view that if you think things could be improved in this country, therefore you hate it and should move.

0:28:07 Thomas: Like, if you there's anything wrong with a country, you have to move because you don't think it's perfect. You can only live here if you this country is absolutely perfect. And then Trump runs on a campaign entirely consisting of, this country's terrible. Terrible. It's literally make America great again. This couldn't be more obvious. Look, I hate doing layups. I hatedoing obvious stuff for you guys on the show. But this is the major party. This is one of the only two parties we have an actual choice on. I know I'll get shit for saying that. But it's one of those. There's only two partysthat have any realistic shot of of getting elected. And this is one of them. It's not impossible that Trump could be president.

0:28:53 Thomas: I don't think it'll happen. I think I think the voters are going to really see what he's made of during these debates. They're going to see him measured up against a very calm, rational Hillary Clinton. I think he loses in a landslide. I think there's no chance, but it's just not that hard to conceive of it. All that has to happen is a couple demographics switch, maybe people aren't quite as excited about voting Hillary, maybe they take it for granted, maybe think they think he has no chance, I'm just gonna not go to the polls today, it's not that hard, you only have to switch a couple, you know, a handful of states by a few percentage points, it is not that hard, and that is downright terrifying, I know there's likely limits to how bad it can be, but I don't know when he talks about stuff, like he's going to just fire at Iranians who make bad faces at him or that our troops or whatever, our ships, he's gonna just be just act of war, casual act of War policy.

0:29:51 Thomas: Yeah. We're just going to fire at him. That'll show him. I mean, I mean look, it, it could go pretty bad. I, this, it there, a lot of people like to tell the Congress won't let him do anything. President doesn't have that much power. Well, he could start wars. Like He could start a lot of wars, you know? But it's possible, he could be president, and that's why I feel it's so important to talk about this, and to not let, I don't want to let Trump's horribleness become routine, and it has, it has absolutely has become normalized, every day it's normalized, you know, the great meme I retweeted that maybe you saw that I ret tweeted, where it said Hillary has a bad week, and she did, she did. She had a bad bad week for a normal politician. She had, this is like Tiger Woods in his prime, let's say.

0:30:40 Thomas: Tiger Woods shoots, he shoots one under par on a course where he should shoot six under par. He's not leading the tournament. That is, Tiger Woods had a bad day. Trump's version of having a bad day is setting the golf course on fire, killing a guy with his golf club, running over someone with a golf cart, and shooting 90, you know, like, that's his version of a bad day, and that, both those two things go down in the media as, oh, a couple golfers didn't play so well, you know, this golfer didn't pay that well, this other golfer did play that well. Ooh, it should be neck neck and neck. It gets normalized every day and it shouldn't be. Tiger's one under and Trump or whoever, I didn't pick a person, uh, Lee Trevino.

0:31:28 Thomas: I don't know. Somebody there, there, they're, they're 90 there. That's what, is that double book? No, that's bogey golf. That's bogeygolf. That's not too good for the pros. That was not even close. So, in an effort to continue putting the screws to Trump's behavior, this opinion is, is dogshit. This is a terrible opinion. This, this is, one, only, I mean, a lot of people feel this way. I, there's, think half the country thinks this. The major networks said they didn't want to show the National Anthem because they didn't want to show someone sitting for it, and that's going to cause a huge ruckus. Conservative America can't handle the fact that someone would like to utilize the freedom guaranteed to them by the idiot flag, that they think is so great, that it's so, you can't offend the flag, you don't don't talk bad about the flag, don't say anything that might piss off the flag, you can't do anything.

0:32:20 Thomas: He's utilizing the freedom that that guarantees in order to make a statement, which is, that should be the end of it. The The end of it should be, even for these people who disagree with him, should be, oh, you know, I don't agree with his message, I think the cops are great, everything's fine and racial issues in America, but he made a message I disagreed with, end of story. This, this idea where you're going to demand that he not only not have his opinions, which is un-American, it's un-American to demand that each other not have their opinions, but to also demand that he change his behavior just to not show that he has a different opinion. Like he can't even express his opinion. That's the part that's, that is so inconsistent with their own worldview, and that's what drives me crazy. Their own worldview is that America is the greatest place on the earth, and it's all great, except that simultaneously their worldview is that it's terrible and Trump's going to make it great again.

0:33:12 Thomas: But their own world view, at least if I were trying to give it a charitable interpretation, is that the way the country was founded, that's great. The founders were great. They did everything right. The flag is incredible. It represents the troops. They fought for our rights. But also they fought for the right for people to express their opinions. Do they really want to live in a world where people can't disrespect an artifact like a flag? Is that, furthermore, here's what I want to know, is that behavior we would like in other countries? I'm just thinking, like, if countries were people, you know, and you're like, you're trying to foster behavior that you think is good and show it, be it be a good example, would you want to interact with another country, country, that valued their flag or some weird, it may be some equivalent show of respect that we don't even know about because it's not our culture really, but maybe we don't understand it and we accidentally don't pay it the certain type of respect.

0:34:07 Thomas: Do we want them to value that so highly over and above anything that their country has done wrong? Would we want a country to be minimizing things they've done wrong? No, we would want, I would want, personally, I want Saudi Arabia to think, hmm, to be a little introspective. Be like, maybe I'm not too terribly into Saudi Arabia. Maybe Saudi Arabia has ways it can improve. That's what I want. And Colin Kaepernick is, in his mind, taking what he thinks is a way we can improve. He's saying he's not going to stand for, to salute a flag in a country where black people are discriminated against.

That's his statement. He wants to improve the country. That's fine. You can disagree. But the idea that we would want that in any other country, would, would we want there to be people in Saudi Arabia who are afraid, and there probably are, who are absolutely afraid to question their role in, hey, hey, maybe we don't have so many public beheadings? Oh, well, no, no, no, see that, but it's, but the founders, the founding fathers publicly beheaded people all the time, so we need to keep that up. We can't disrespect where we come from. We can't respect our own country. No, we wouldn't want that.

We would want some intrepid fellow over in Saudi Arabia to think, you know, I bet there's ways we could improve this place. I'm going to make a statement. How about I'm not going to salute whatever their custom is. I'm gonna stand for our anthem until we stop, you now, maybe publicly executing people in the town square.

0:35:40 Thomas: Like, wouldn't we want someone to do that? Wouldn't we not want them to be silenced by some inane argument that, well, no, you can't see, I understand your message. That's one thing, but you just can't disrespect it. You know, it's tone policing that they just want you to never say anything. That is what they want. They want you not to have any problems. When black people protest, it is too violent. When they do such and such, that is the wrong way. And finally, when one guy just kneels, literally the least disruptive, least violent form of protest there could possibly be. Simply kneeling. You know, it's outrageous. It's outrageous to them. This is a a war that the meme army has won.

0:36:26 Thomas: They've, we've really, sometimes memes are crap, sometimes memes get, misrepresent arguments, or maybe they, they, they straw man, maybe they, but the meme war was really won by liberals in this fight, like, it was not even close, it was a meme massacre. There were so many. There were military people saying, uh, yeah, no, I want him to be able to express himself however he wants. That's what I went and fought for. That what I, you know, that's what my, that what our forefathers fought and died for. Whatever. There's, there's those memes. There is... pictures of, uh, there's memes of people watching football who are all just sitting, drinking beer, eating pizza. Do you stand up? Look, you better stand up. If you're complaining about this, if you're complaining about Kaepernick, you'd better stand for every damn salute to the flag that ever happens on TV.

0:37:16 Thomas: You'd better be standing, because you can't be sitting there with Cheeto dust on your fingers, with an open beer, your gut spilling out, watching TV, thinking, thinking, why doesn't that guy stand? He should stand kneeling. Like, it's just, come on. It's pathetic. This meme war was decisive. It was decisively won in favor of the liberal point of view on this. And liberal, I would say liberal with a capital L too, like classic liberal. There are plenty of conservatives, I think, recognize this. You could be a Republican and think, wow, this is absurd. Of course he can kneel. This is not even flag burning, which should also be legal. This This is kneeling. That is so low on the scale of one to disruptive, one to violent, you know, kind of insulting pro- I mean, it is such, such nothing.

0:38:07 Thomas: But really, it persists, and here's where it hit home for me, ice hockey, there's the World Cup of Hockey, pretty cool, USA already lost a horrible, horrible defeat, so that sucks, but here's a headline from some site called NicerDays.org, I don't know what that is, but Team USA Hockey Coach John Tortorella made headlines this week when he told ESPN's Linda Cohn, if any of my players sit on the bench for the national anthem, they will sit there the rest of the game. Really? And here's what it says. Tortorella's son is an army ranger who is currently deployed, making this matter even more personal for Team USA's stern coach. He's particularly critical of his players' conduct, particularly, well, whoever wrote this is not a great writer, particularly during the World Cup where they will represent not just a single team or league, but the entire country as a whole.

0:39:02 Thomas: If his players choose to exercise their constitutional rights by sitting for the anthem, he has no problem exercising his rights as a coach to bench them throughout the game. So there you go, there you have it, real, true American, yeah, oh, I get it, he's got a son who's in the army, well, forgive me for not seeing that as a legitimate excuse to become a fascist. Your son is in the Army or whatever because he's anti-fascist, I assume, I mean, in general, I would want our military to fight against fascism, but instead, you are deciding that people have to do a certain thing exactly how you want them to, or you are going to utilize your idiotic power as a coach to make your team worse and cost your team in skill by sitting a player when he shouldn't be sitting.

0:39:51 Thomas: Demanding that someone do a ritual like this, like standing or whatever, it's fine to expect it. It's fine to encourage it. It's find to say, hey, I think you should stand for the flag. I know people are trying to make statements, but we're representing USA to the world and, you know, this isn't the best place to do that. I think we ought to show a little more unity. If you want to make that argument, nothing wrong with that. But when you demand loyalty, when you demand deference, and you demand someone perform some sort of ritual exactly the way you want them to, or else, that's not American. I don't know why I have to say this. It's unbelievable. Again, I apologize. I apologize for how obvious this is.

0:40:37 Thomas: Like I really, I feel bad for how obvious THIS is, but I am blown away. The day, you know, I I feel like the day I live in a country where half of us think gravity is real and half of us don't, you know, I'm going to talk about gravity being real and like drop an object and say, look at what's happening. This is falling. Gravity is really, you know, even though it's obvious it's I'm, I am blown away by the difference in opinion on this. I, Hey, if anyone disagrees with me, I will, I will happily engage with you on the show. If you're military or something and you feel a deep connection to the flag, you think I'm totally wrong, I will have you on. I will be happy to talk to you about this. I think you're completely wrong.

0:41:23 Thomas: I'm not going to hide that, but I will give you a chance. I wonder how much of an obvious issue this is. I think it's pretty obvious to me.

0:41:51 Thomas: All right, that's it for the commentary for the day. Now I wanna talk about a little about the, the show, where it's headed, what's going on, all of this. I mean, I think updates are in order. First, I need to give an enormous thanks to everyone who has supported the show at patreon.com slash atheist. I am blown away. The rush of support was overwhelming and unexpected, and I am so grateful, and all I'm thinking about is I don't want to let you guys down. I want to keep doing an excellent show. I keep challenging you, keep challenging myself, keep allowing you guys to Goals. If you're a patron, you will have gotten emails that I reached goals. I've already talked about the blog. That was a stretch goal of mine. And then I had an even further stretch goal thinking this will never happen, but maybe someday I had a stretch go of do a YouTube video per week. And we hit that goal. I'm amazed. I had no idea this would happen so quickly.

So, because it has happened so quickly, I want to plead with you guys to please allow me a couple weeks to get calibrated. I'm still recovering from launching Opening Arguments that really took a lot out of me in terms of all the work we had to put in and do that. I feel like I've been doing nothing but playing catch-up, and I still have a full-time job. But I think it is very safe to say I'm currently making plans to leave my job.

0:43:21 Thomas: I'm making plans to devote my entire life to putting out good podcasts, which is incredible. I can't even believe it myself, but thank you so much to everyone who has supported me and made this possible. As a result of still having my job, I still need to pay off a lot of student loans. I got out of college with a lot of debt. I need to pay those down. That's what I'm doing with any extra money that I have. And once those are gone, and a couple other debts from the house we bought and all that, But once those are gone, I think I could do this full time. And it's incredible. I have you to thank. Absolutely. It'll be a huge adjustment, it's not going to be easy, it'll be tight, but that's okay because I will have more time to dedicate to ideas and interesting interviews, opinions, I love it.

0:44:09 Thomas: I love what I do, and I'm so happy that it's looking like I can go full-time, I'm making preparations. Now, part of that is, I hired someone to help me out because since I still have a full- time job, a demanding full-time job at that, and podcasts. I thought it would be a good idea to get a little help. Now I'm not in the position that, you know, cognitive dissonance is. With their hire, they can afford a lot. I could only afford a little bit.

So I found someone who is unbelievable. Unbelievable. She is so helpful. She's getting scheduling orders, she's booking guests, she is doing all this cool stuff. I love it. It's going really well. Her name is Haley and... and she has licked Eli Bosnick, so that, I mean, right away, that was what qualified her for the position. I said, anyone who would lick Eli Bosnick since he licked Ray Comfort, that already, interview over, that's already, Nothing else really mattered at that point, so thank you so much, Haley, for all the help you've already been in your short time, I think it was this week she started, already been a big help, that's helping me manage all these things and still putting out the good content and all that. I think it's only going to get better. She has a lot of good ideas and ways to improve the show.

And speaking of lots to look forward to, I have a great interview coming up, I'm so excited, and I'm most excited because I guarantee you don't know who I'm interviewing, but it's some scientists who did a study, that in a philosopher, that that is really cool and we're gonna talk about it because it's important, important. All right, so big thanks to Haley, big thanks to all my patrons.

I hope you enjoyed the bonus content with Tim, and there will be plenty more bonus where that comes from, plus early episodes when there's a two-parter, and sometimes even when there's not a two parter I can try to get to you early, but definitely when there is a two parter, I usually do it all up, do all the work ahead of time so I can release it early for my lovely patrons.

0:45:59 Thomas: Thank you guys so much, and that's it for me today. I hope you enjoyed it, and be sure to tell me what you disagreed with, what you agreed with, or whatever, and I'll do my best to reply, especially now that I've— Ooh, my favorite thing about having someone on board with the show is that I can use the royal we and I don't sound like a jerk anymore. Because sometimes I—I would say we in, like, social media just because I'm thinking, like—I don't know, me and you guys, like as a show—as a show, I'm kind of doing some weird royal we thing. I don't like to say I a lot because it just sounds kind of douchey that it's like, oh, well, I think this about whatever. But now I can say we, and I'm referring to me and Haley. So whenever I say we about anything, it's no longer the royal we. So that's my favorite part about having someone helping me out. All right. Thanks so much, guys. I hope you enjoyed it, and I will see you on Thursday.