AS270: Rondale and Jabari, Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 270, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, we're going to get right over to part two with Rondale and Jabari. Great stuff. I'm really excited to see what you guys think of this discussion. As always, leave me comments. You can email. I'd say the best place is the website, atheisticallyspeaking.com. You can leave comments there and interact with other listeners. The Facebook is good as well. Well, let's get the discussion going on this, and it definitely won't be the last word on this particular topic, so really excited to see what you guys think when it's all said and done, and here you go, part two with Jabari and Rondale.

0:01:19 Thomas: Right. Well I think I think we're all agreed on body cameras, but I guess the debate, it seems like the disagreement you guys are having now is Jabari seems to come from the side of when there's a killing, we're going to protest, we'RE going to demonstrate and that kind of thing, even though it may end up that the facts come to light and it's not necessarily like a racist shooting because, and let me know if I have this right, Jabari, because you would rather err on the side of, you don't want to have done nothing if it was a racist killing, right?

0:01:43 Unattributed: Right. Correct.

0:01:52 Thomas: And then it sounds like Rondale is coming from the other side of it, which is, no, we need to wait until the facts are known. So I'm wondering if that's an irreconcilable difference or if you want to try to engage one another on it more, what do you think?

0:01:53 Unattributed: Right.

0:02:08 Unattributed: Yeah. I mean, I'll talk about it. So one of the reasons why I say wait is because one of things that happened during these riots is that the black community is destroyed. Right. There are a lot of black businesses that are destroyed in the process of these riots before anything has been found. I would rather personally hold off on destroying my own community before finding out all the facts.

You know, because what's starting to happen is once you find out, like, some of these killings weren't due to racism, then you can't just go back and say, oh, yeah, you know, I'm sorry, you know, lady who owns a corner store, hey, we sorry we burned down your place and we found out that it wasn't due to racism. You can't say sorry after you, after you burnt down somebody's place. Right.

And so therefore, so therefore, I feel like you kind of, if you've already done the riot before the facts have come out, you have to continue to push the narrative. Like, no, I don't want to really push the narrative. Right. Like, I want to show that, hey, America is a better place than what it was yesterday. And so if

0:03:08 Unattributed: Anything, you know, let's, let me find the facts, let you know what, right, if, if something really did occur because of racism, but if something didn't occur because of racism, or at least we saved our city. Right. And that's the way I see it. My take is that you are, are never going to know all the facts. I mean, you're never going to have a video from every single angle. You're never gonna know the entire story.

It's, it's a, these are split second things that happened really, really quickly. And even the perception may be off of what happened from, you know, the, the the officer. That, and it's also, these investigations take a really long time and they take weeks. Sometimes when you add in the trials, I mean, they take months. And in that time, I mean, how many more shootings are going to happen? I mean, we need to be putting this pressure on to our government and our criminal justice system to investigate with the full speed that they can and with the resources they can, and also to adopt these policies of learning to de-escalate and not walk through the streets in riot gear and land demilitarized and not throw tear gas onto crowds. I mean, these happen in synergy.

Marched with Black Lives Matter, Matter a lot, they, um, I'm never been a part of a riot, but the only time I've seen the crowd start, um, running is when, um, like a, like it's like a glass bottle got thrown into the, into the middle of the, of the crowd and like, you know, there was nowhere to know where that came from. Somebody told me that, you know, the cops have plans. I mean, I, I don't know.

0:04:44 Unattributed: Maybe it was – I don't know who did it, right? But, I mean, there are that need to be used to, like, de-escalate situations.

0:04:53 Unattributed: And one of those methods is to address these – some of these, like – you know, these disparities and also just address some of the things that are being demanded by Campaign Zero. I mean for the record, Campaign Zero has been around for a while, like over a year and a half. And, like it baffles me that nobody knows anything about it. But it frustrates me that, like, I see police departments have not moved one inch.

0:05:15 Thomas: You know what one of the worst things is? It was Dallas Dallas, where the police were killed.

0:05:19 Unattributed: Dallas.

0:05:19 Thomas: Dallas.

0:05:20 Unattributed: Yeah, Dallas.

0:05:20 Thomas: Yeah. One of the one of the most frustrating things, I think, from what I've read and heard people talk about was that Dallas PD was actually doing a really great job at that. Like they were at that demonstration.

0:05:21 Unattributed: Yep. Yeah, that's what I've heard, too.

0:05:32 Thomas: It sucks that that the the shooter decided to sort of take vengeance on that particular police department. I mean, not that it makes any difference. Anyone he chose is wrong. But it was particularly troubling that Dallas PD was actually a good example. And they were they were controlling demonstrations or if not controlling, but like, you know, policing the demonstration in a way that led to, you know, peace and in general stability and people's right to protest because, you know, people do have a right to contest. You can't just shut it down.

0:05:43 Unattributed: Right. Right.

0:06:07 Thomas: And so that's particularly sad that it sounds like they were doing a good job and then and tragedy struck.

0:06:07 Unattributed: Correct. Yeah, that was very unfortunate, very tragic.

0:06:15 Thomas: I'm wondering, Jabari, you say you've marched with Black Lives Matter a lot? What's what's the a typical experience.

0:06:21 Unattributed: I've marched to New York, which has been extremely peaceful. New York is not Ferguson. New York is not Baltimore. New York is not Dallas. But um, in, in New York it's been, it's been um, the ones I have participated have been incredibly peaceful even when we shut down highways, it's uh, you know, it's a sitting and uh, they pulled this one trick, but they um, they, that was with this, there's not, this one march I was so mad, they was um, but we were there for a while, we wouldn't budge. And all of a sudden we heard like a fire, um, an ambulance coming in the distance. And you know, we all parted for it to pass through, and like, I, part of me like knew that was a setup. And then lo and behold, when I like turn on the 10 o'clock news that night, there's like a 10 second spot about the Black Lives Matter march, is like, Black Lives Matter shut down the street, even blocking ambulances. And I was like, come on.

0:06:23 Thomas: Okay. Right. Oh no.

0:07:01 Thomas: Wow. Who do you see as having the most control over whether or not a protest turns violent? Do you see it as a question of how the police handle it? And if they, if they go in there with riot riot gear and looking threatening, things are going to escalate versus if they just sit there in a laid back kind of way, things generally just turn out peaceful. You demonstrate, it ends, whatever.

0:07:25 Unattributed: Can't speak to that, I'm not sure what makes a a protest turn violent, I've never been in a in a riot, so to speak, yeah.

0:07:31 Thomas: Okay. Okay, yeah, maybe it's where places are more heated, it could be different.

0:07:37 Unattributed: Yeah, I mean, I have had issues where I have felt like, there was one where we were just doing a sit down protest, we were about to shut down a target, and we went to to, you know, the police officers cut us off. We were blocked. So we were just sitting in front of it. And, um, one of them just took out their knife stick for no reason. I mean, I was sitting right in front and we weren't, we weren't even moving. He just has knife stick was out. And I took a picture of him, like, why, why is your knife stick out, man? We're just like, there's, we're so far from a riot. Right. I, I will say this and I'll give Jabari the phone. Um, I'll say that in any movement, there's always going to be a few bad actors.

0:07:58 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:08:06 Unattributed: Right? And so, and so I don't think it's a question as to, oh, is it the police starting it? Is it the Black Lives Matter movement that's starting it? I think you're going to have people on both sides, police officers, like you're talking about, Jabari, with the police officer with his nightsticks, you know, in his hand, and you know you're talking about somebody throwing a body. You're going with a few bad actors. So I don't think any side is really to blame. I don't think that, you know. You are going to people that are, you know, like in politics, you are going have people that are radical on both side, and they are going do things to antagonize the other side. Right? And so. I agree with that. And so, yeah, I don't really think there's anyone to blame, I just think that that's what happens in lieu of everything that's going on.

0:08:46 Thomas: You know, I got a question for you, Jabari. Do you see it as necessary or a good idea or maybe not at all. Should Black Lives Matter make an effort to demonstrate when a white person is killed by police? Or do you think that's unnecessary and diverts from the movement?

0:08:46 Unattributed: Yeah. Sure. I.

0:09:05 Unattributed: I think All Lives Matter should do that because they don't do anything right now, yeah, I.

0:09:08 Thomas: Fair enough. Fair enough, because I because I do see that as a criticism that people will, you know, will launch at Black Lives matter, because actually it was I brought it up in a in a previous episode, around the same time as Philando Castile and the other shooting that happened all, you know, it seemed like in the same day, I guess it was the same week, a white kid was shot near, actually somewhat near me in California, just under a truck, like it made no sense. The shooting made no sense.

0:09:32 Unattributed: Heard about. That, yeah. Wow.

0:09:37 Thomas: It was, and he was killed too. And I just wonder, like, is that, I really don't know the answer. I think, I take your point. I, I think Black Lives Matter. I don't see it. Some people, it seems like some white people or maybe not just white people see the title Black Lives Matter as some threat. And we've seen all the memes, you know, this bone matters this, but yeah, there's meme after meme about making fun of, of this fact, but I really don't get it.

0:09:59 Unattributed: Yeah. Right. I.

0:10:02 Thomas: Like it seems pretty straightforward that saying Black Lives Matter just means they also matter that it doesn't mean they matter more than anyone else. And, and so I guess I see your point. I mean, it might be an interesting olive branch to like like stage of Black Lives Matter protests when a white person is shot by police, just to emphasize like, hey, we don't like anyone being shot by policemen. I take your point that All Lives Matter really isn't doing much right now, so they could handle it.

0:10:03 Unattributed: Don't. Get it, right. Yeah.

0:10:26 Unattributed: I. mean, Black Lives Matter is a specific focus, I. mean, I mean, asking Black. Lives Matter about, you know, why they're not doing enough for, or why they haven't done anything for white lives, is the same as asking why Black Lives Matter doesn't doesn't protest gang violence, has a very specific focus. And there are other groups that are doing that. Right.

0:10:28 Thomas: Yeah, right.

0:10:40 Thomas: But the only thing I would say to push back a tiny bit, maybe, is if a lot of the measures that you're trying to get across and and a lot of the things like Campaign Zero and all that are about police in general, are about, you know, we need oversight, we need investigation, we need training. All these things that, that seems to me that to not really have a racial component in some ways, it seems like that's just more regulated and better policing, in which case it does kind of seem like any police killing applies. But just, just to be devil's advocate, do you see anything to that argument, or no? Know.

0:11:18 Unattributed: Yeah, no, I totally hear that. I mean. Yeah. I mean, that's that's what's kind of actually so sad about Black Lives Matter that there are so many people that are against it when all the policies we're addressing would be beneficial for. Everyone. One disproportionately better for black and brown lives, which, because they're disproportionately targeted, but yeah, they would be better. It's actually ironic that, um, you know, many of the policies that Black Lives Matter, um, pushes are good, good for all lives.

0:11:26 Thomas: Right. Right, okay, not necessary but to, you have Black Lives Matter protests that demonstrate when a white person is killed, in your view.

0:11:39 Unattributed: And. Uh. No, there's a racial component that's inseparable from the name, I mean, it'd be, it's, it's, it's weird to, um, protest a white life by shouting Black Lives Mater, um, that. It's. Uh, the, the thing is, it's not just against police brutality. It's against systemic racism. And we're not protesting police. We're also protesting the justice system and the jail system.

0:11:53 Thomas: Yeah, okay.

0:12:03 Thomas: Okay, Rondale, I think you wanted to get in there at some point.

0:12:06 Unattributed: Yeah, so I agree with Jabari. It's not Black Lives Matter's job to protest white, killings of white people by police officers, right? I think what needs to happen is the media needs to do a better job of portraying what the situation really is like. So if you look at it, I believe there's a stat put out there. I think it might have been in the Washington Post or some or some other or said that, like, I think in 2015, there were a thousand police killings, black, you know, killings of black people were only four percent of them and whatnot. Well, why don't you know why doesn't the media report more instances of white people being killed? Right. Like, I Think that would do a much better job of looking at the issue and seeing like, look, you Know, maybe there's a problem with policing. Maybe it's not necessarily a racial thing. Maybe there's a problem with, you know, giving somebody a gun and making them feel like they're, you know, they have power over civilians.

0:12:57 Thomas: That is interesting, like, because Jabari, did you know about the Fresno killing, the white kid that was killed by police?

0:13:05 Unattributed: No.

0:13:05 Thomas: Yeah, I mean, it isn't. Do you, you think there's something to that, that the, we don't, the news maybe doesn't cover it because it doesn't blow up into a big racial issue, so it doesn't land on anyone's map, yeah.

0:13:06 Unattributed: Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't cover a lot of things that are important, I mean, yeah.

0:13:18 Thomas: Got.

0:13:18 Unattributed: That will, uh, sell or get more clicks if they, if they have a dead, uh, minority than a dead white person. Right, right. And and I think because things like racism or sexism or any kind of kind of ism is much bigger news, I think, if you're looking at, you know, things from a rating perspective, um, it's much more sexy to cover a black kid being shot, right, uh, and so, and and so I think that's a part of the issue. So, yeah, I don't necessarily think that Black Lives Matter has any responsibility to, know, cover those things or riot when a white person is being killed. Now, when it comes to all lives matter, I've always looked at that a little bit differently. I never thought that, like, maybe there are some people who think that, well, like really all lives mater. I always thought that the people that were speaking about those things were just like, well duh, like we never stopped caring about black lives.

0:14:09 Unattributed: And that's probably because I see things differently. I don't think racism is a big issue in America nowadays. I think we make it a bigger issue than what it used to be. And I said, because I think there'll always be a small percentage of racists. And I think in 2016, a small percent of the population are racists because I think we all have the understanding that it's socially unacceptable to be racist. So maybe I'm just influenced by having a different outlook on what society is like.

0:14:32 Thomas: Well.

0:14:32 Unattributed: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm just want to just reiterate that I really think racism is structural. It's not like it's not white people saying, oh, man, I hate niggers. It's a it's a no, No, No, no. Right. Right, right. I think that's a very simplistic way of looking at it. I think that, you know, this will lead to a much deeper discussion. We'll talk about this like another hour. So I don't want to go too deep into it. But I don't really think that there are a lot of structural things put in place that are still causing you to be hated against for any reason.

Laws in America are constantly changing to repel Black lives or Hispanic lives or anything like that. Talking about the specific issue, for example, and I think Thomas, you mentioned something about there not being a lot of good statistical data on police shootings. You know, I remember, um, FBI director Comey, Comey, I believe is his name, was just saying that, hey, look, he wants to do more investigative research to find out why, you know, there's this feeling that Black people are killed more often by police officers. He wants to make that, you know, that information public, right? You know, we look at colleges, we look at things like affirmative action, there's more things to try to help people who are minorities. To me, that is not a system of structural racism. That is a system of trying to fix, I believe we currently have a system that is trying to fix the system so that we have the equal opportunities, opportunity to advance in our society.

That's what I care about at the end of the day. And to me, if I didn't have any way to move up a class, economic class, if I had no way to go to college, then I would say, okay, there's some structures put in place.

0:16:18 Unattributed: I'll admit it may be a little bit harder for me as a Black person, given what I was born into and whatnot, and given the history of racism, right? I still think we have the shadows of Jim Crow that are covering up our society, and it makes it a little harder for Blacks and Hispanics to kind of move up in society. But you still have agency. There are still things out there you can do to move up. So I don't really, I think, I think, you're going to see a lot of racism like this, but this idea that structural racism is this great theory that defines our society, I think it kind of leads to a dead end. And I really do, because I think at some point in time, you can say, well, but there's this. Well, but there's that. And so that's why I don't really like to buy into that. Sure. So, I mean, my take on that, you can't excuse the system because of the good things, the counter-racist efforts that are happening, like affirmative action and whatnot.

0:17:12 Unattributed: I mean, you still get things like black and brown kids getting detention or suspended from school at higher rates than whites for the same crimes. You still get thing like black names on a resume being less likely to get the call than white names on the resume. You get domino effects like, yeah, there's a larger proportion of black and Latino men in prison.

And then if you're trying to apply for a job, then that's going to affect prisoners that are coming out, predominantly black and brown, that's gonna affect their job prospects moving forward and ultimately impact the community. Tons of things that need to be fixed, I mean, I think affirmative action measures are great, I think there are tons of fantastic counter race, um, counter racism, um, measures in place, um, until we have a system that you know, perpetuates and maintains, uh, equality among the racists, it's going to be a racist system, um, and then you'll never have equality though, like, like that's something you will never have, so, so I think one of the things that we constantly mix up is that, but this idea that inequality means racism, it doesn't necessarily mean that. Like, all you need is equal opportunity. That's what matters. And what you do with that opportunity is what matters now.

I don't want to turn to other things because, again, I think that we can talk for another hour or two just about, you know, the tension and all the different things. And I can talk about study after study that I've looked at, you know, when it comes to those things. But I just don't necessarily think that just because, you know, the Senate isn't 50% black and 50% white or 50% male, 50% female or whatever else.

0:18:46 Unattributed: I don't necessarily think that inequalities mean that there's not equal opportunity. And that's what I really care about in, you know, in the system that we have. Do I have the opportunity to go to college like a white person? Yes. Do we have the option to own a home like a White person? Yes. I do have the opportunities presented to me. And I see, you know, immigrants take advantage of those opportunities. Many of them come in to our country, much poorer than most black folks in our country. And they take full advantage of the opportunities and they propel themselves, you know, into our middle class or upper class. So at the end of the day, like, that's what I really care about. And that's why I kind of say social racism, do I think it may exist to a certain extent? Yes, I can probably agree with you on criminal laws and, you know, some people being, you know, getting longer prison sentences for, I don't know, crack cocaine versus powder cocaine.

0:19:40 Unattributed: OK, I can see your argument there. But in the same token, that's, you Know, I fully.

0:19:47 Thomas: Then. Is it, is it a question of focus for you? Go, go ahead, Jabari, so.

0:19:51 Unattributed: Honestly, I was going to fully disagree about the opportunity argument. I got to. I mean, like a black person gets shot in the leg and a white person gets kicked in the leg. They both have the opportunity to heal and move on. But you can't ignore the fact that one is getting oppressed or hurt in a much greater fashion. I mean, there is. And that I mean that needs to be addressed. I mean it's not enough to just give people opportunity. You have to like not set them back before before they at disproportionate measures before they get their opportunities. I don't think that we're being oppressed though. Right. I just like I mentioned before, you know, like I was saying, I think we have to shadow Jim Crow and slavery that is that is still laying waste over, you our country. If you kind of look at the way this country's history has gone, we started, you know, five seconds behind most other races in this country. Right. Like the only other race that can probably claim to have gotten a slow start.

0:20:39 Unattributed: And they're not even close to the Irish. Right. Because a lot of them came over here as indentured servants. Right. But they can't even make the same case that we've made. So if you look at, I believe the Civil Rights Act happened in 1964. So if we use that as a measurement to say, okay, Civil Rights Act of 1964 happened, and since then, we've been on this upward climb, it's going to take a while to see a large number of Black people really progress in our society, right? Right. So, so I think I agree with you that it's a lot harder for us to to to move up a class. Right. I agree. It's a little harder for me to move to a class than I agree is a lot harder for to go to college. And that is because of things like Jim Crow and slavery. Right. We started, we started a little bit behind, and our society is slowly progressing and getting to the point where we're all at the same level and we all have the same starting point.

0:21:32 Unattributed: But it's going to take a while to get there. The Civil Rights Act just happened in 1964. We're only, what, what, 50, 60 years away from that point. And so I think, you know, what you will see is 20, 30 years from now, the country will be much better. You'll have more Black presidents probably, more Black politicians, more Black lawyers, more black doctors.

And I believe if you look at statistics, you know, the Black middle class is one of the, you know, it's one of it's increasing at an enormous rate. So no, no class has stagnated so much since the, great since the Great Recession, and in fact, white, um, as wealth has increased and black has pretty much stagnated, if not gone down. Yeah, I mean, yeah, so I'm, I'm, when I was looking at the studies that I've looked at, the black middle class has increased tremendously since the 1960s is what I mean, I agree, yeah, I, I agree, since you know, 2008 or whatever, and I believe if you even if you look at studies from like the 1980s, like the black middle class has grown significantly is what I'm saying, I.

0:22:34 Unattributed: Would.

0:22:34 Thomas: Let's try to distill this down, so it sounds like to me, and let me know if I misrepresent either of you, Rondale, you're saying not so much as there's still a structural problem, it's that black people started behind because of all the things you mentioned, slavery. And so when you look at inequality, it might not mean they're actively being oppressed. It might mean, oh, they're still catching up versus Jabari's view is more that, no, they'RE still actively being oppressed. I don't know how we can reconcile the two. Jabari, what do you think? Take a stab at it either way.

0:22:47 Unattributed: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Right.

0:23:07 Unattributed: I. Mean, yes, we're still actively being oppressed, like again, you can look at, you can look at statistics and see that black people are getting longer sentences than, um, white people for the same crimes, you can see that black people are getting arrested for pot more often than white people even though they use it at the same rate, you can look in schools and see that black students and are getting detention or getting suspended from school for acting up in the same way that whites are getting more likely to be put in special education, I mean, you can look at housing applications and see that black people are less likely to, um, get a, get a lease or get a loan, and so on, in so many instances.

0:23:37 Thomas: Is it a question of looking at the group versus like what an individual's experience might be. Do you think that's playing a part? Like, cause you could take an individual white guy and an individual black guy, for example, and you could, you could find the right sample so that, you know, actually the white guy is having a harder time or whatever. But when you look at the group as a whole, these things are happening that you just mentioned Jabari and as a whole like, you Know, statistically as a group that oppresses black people, even though you might be able to take an Individual example and say, well, look, this guy has, you Now, Rondale's got all the opportunity in the world or that sort of thing. Is that a factor?

0:23:39 Unattributed: Sure.

0:24:14 Unattributed: That is a factor, but like if you look at individuals, what, what could possibly causing individuals that are black to be, um, more likely to, um, not deserve, or sorry, not, not get a, uh, a house loan, or get kicked out of class, or be, be arrested, and um, individuals that are white, I mean, if it's I. Mean. It's not. Like.

0:24:29 Thomas: Right. Well, I was just saying

0:24:33 Unattributed: Genetically.

0:24:33 Thomas: Like you might be able to handpick an individual to where that didn't happen, but statistically it happens to more black individuals than white. That's all I meant. Like you could handpic a sample and cherry pick and it might look like one thing, but as a group, it looks like a different thing. That is all I mean.

0:24:34 Unattributed: Right. Yes.

0:24:51 Unattributed: That is, yeah, I agree with that.

0:24:52 Thomas: Okay. What do you think, Rondale? Could that be happening a little bit? Is it a product of you're looking at your life and you're seeing what's happened to you, but maybe these systematic things that Jabari is talking about are affecting the group as a whole or statistically black people as a whole?

0:25:10 Unattributed: I mean, that is possibly true. Um, I mean, I've looked at, I've look at statistics, um, because I'm very concerned about this issue and, you know, talking about it with other people, um, I've had to issue numerous times and, you, you know, I found that, you know, for example, with the, you know, even with black people getting longer distances offenses more often, blacks have more offenses. Right now you can say that's due to policing problems, of course they, they are caught up in things more often, so therefore they have more offenses and blah, blah, blah. But, um, you know, of course there could be this outlook that I have that, hey, oh, I made it out of the hood and I came from a Singaporean household, I went to a, a poor high school, and why can't anybody else, that totally could be true. Right, but I, I mean, I I truly believe that anecdotal evidence isn't necessarily evidence that something is the way it seems to be.

0:26:03 Unattributed: Right. I feel like we need to look at things as a whole to really understand the way things really are. And I've tried to do that. And when I've done that, I haven't really found that, you know, I'm at a disadvantage simply because I'm black. I feel like I'm disadvantaged. I feel I was at a disadvantage simply because of the historical pretenses, um, in our society, it just seems so laissez-faire. I mean, to say that, okay, let's, uh, I mean, I don't think we'll see, um, any progress in, um, in the black community unless we keep on looking, I mean, looking at addressing methods of racism.

I don't buy into this effect that, like, um, the structural impediments have been removed and now all the problems are just echoes, um, of of the past. I think there are still things that are actively happening and we need to keep on fighting balls to the wall to address them, or else things do not budge.

And I don't see, I think any of the things you said, the Dallas department doing well, and I think there is slow, slow but good movement among many police departments around the country, around the county, to demilitarize and get body cameras and do and get more involved with, um, more in

0:26:18 Thomas: Right.

0:27:06 Unattributed: Touch with their communities and I think that's the direct result of Black Lives Matter going out and shouting and marching, marching, and going balls to the wall to fight for this. So.

0:27:13 Thomas: And what's interest though is that, Rondale, I don't think you disagreed with any of the policy measures that Jabari outlined, did you? So any of The Policy Goals. So it's interesting that there's even a disagreement because it's like, Rundale, you're saying, oh, there's not, you know what I mean? It's like you're say, oh there's, we're not still being oppressed, it's just we're behind. But then Jabari says, well, let's fix this and this and you're like, yeah. So I don't know, I'm not sure what the disagreement is, maybe.

0:27:13 Unattributed: Oh. Yeah, yeah, I don't disagree, and Yeah, yeah, because. Yeah. So, so once again, and I think I said this earlier, but I think it's kind of looked over, I don't, I'm not saying that there's no structural racism, right? Like, like, for example, if you look at the way our public, um, educational system is funded, I believe it's primarily through property tax, I could be wrong, things could have changed since then, but I believe primarily through property tax, and if that is the case, and you know, you have more apartments in inner cities and houses, of course public schools and inner cities are always going to be underfunded more than schools in suburban communities, right?

And so I look, I look at that, something, it's probably something due to the way our, you know, the industrial revolution happened, we created more apartments and we had redlining and blah, blah, blah, right? You had all those things happen, so therefore, like, I do agree, I do disagree that there's a certain amount of structural, uh, you, racism that is going on. All I'm saying is that if you are given a step back, you got to pick yourself up by a bootstrap.

0:27:53 Thomas: Sure.

0:28:40 Unattributed: And I know conservatives like to use that bullshit line or whatever, but I do think it's partly true. You do have some agency and you can become successful no matter what is thrown in front of you, even though we have all these impediments in place due to history.

0:28:56 Thomas: Hmm. Well, we've gone on a long time. I definitely don't want to, Jabari, if you had more to say, I don't want to cut you off for sure because, you know, I feel like you're so friendly, you don't, you just let everybody talk when they want to. So let me let you have the last word on that.

0:29:09 Unattributed: Three. I really hope I don't sound too mean, I really, well, I

0:29:13 Thomas: No, no, no. It's not a question of me and it's just Jabari's, it's seriously the most delightful, like, discussion.

0:29:20 Unattributed: Mean, I mean, speaking and, like, even when I go out and protest, I'm a huge fan, I'm, I'm big on listening, and that's I mean, that's I'm like using the grassroots and a big as, like, listening and coordinating and really understanding lots of different viewpoints. So, um, yeah, I mean, I totally agree, I'm all about pulling up your bootstraps, I'm about, you know, seeking all the opportunities you can, and honestly, it's, uh, we, we need to remove any structural pediments that can stop us from being the amazing race we are.

0:29:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. So I've got to ask you guys, just because I have you here and I did my last episode, Rondale will know, I talked about the Ellen thing. Now, let me pose it to both of you. When Ellen, you know about the situation, right, Jabari? Or do I need to set it up again? So when she posts a picture like that, do you see it as, I want to ask each of you, do you See the backlash as A, a good thing, B, a bad thing, or C, doesn't matter? Is that something that will help? Is that something that should go away? What do you think about that? I really am curious for your opinions.

0:29:58 Unattributed: Yeah.

0:30:17 Unattributed: The backlash in particular, or what Ellen did?

0:30:19 Thomas: Free to do both. I am curious if you think the backlash is like overall helpful or justified or what. But yeah, feel Free to give your opinion on her picture too.

0:30:29 Unattributed: Sure, I mean, I was fine. I thought it was funny. I would ride Usain Bolt, too, if I could.

0:30:34 Unattributed: That's dude. The backlash is going to happen. I mean America is so sensitive around racial injustice, justice. And again, like I said, some of these issues are not getting addressed, despite how often we're asking for them to be addressed. It's going to be very tender. So it's in poor taste to do something like that because you're going to get a response. I mean, in the same way you get a different response making a joke with somebody when they're angry versus when they've, you know, when they're in a good mood. It's in poor taste to make jokes that can be misconstrued racially um when America is very very tender around race right now um the backlash itself um I uh I don't if there's a counter backlash from the right towards it then um yeah I guess it can be misconstrued as unproductive but I mean it's I I see it's something that's kind of inevitable in um the current the current political climate.

0:31:23 Thomas: Interesting. What were your thoughts on that, Rondale?

0:31:23 Unattributed: Yeah. So uh just like Jabari, I thought it was funny. I would probably, you know, ride your same boat, although he's probably not faster than in the car that I own. Um, but um, anyways, my um, you know, I think the backlash is helpful right, because I think it once again reminds us that America, you know, we we we want to put racism in check, you know, although I don't think um um Ellen was racist.

But I I do think that anytime racism is spewed out, I think most Americans are like, look, we we don't want that in our country, we don't want to see that online. Um, I think the problem with that situation is most people don't get how comedy is formed. I know Thomas, you you um host another podcast called Comedy Shoeshine, you probably have some sense as to what comedians do, but dark humor is very common, and I think there's a little bit of dark humor uh put in there, and I I think most people just don't understand comedy, right? Especially uh I think that we kind of live in a PC era where we're looking to, um, know, wash away all

0:32:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:26 Unattributed: Of the ugliness of our past, right? And so I think it's a reminder of that.

0:32:26 Thomas: Yeah. Well, let me white-splain this for a second. No, I'm just kidding. I do want to say, and again, this is just something I'm identifying as a difficulty. I think a lot of white people see it, and they see Ellen. They see the situation, and I think the three of us would probably agree. Let's see if we're on the same page. Do we all agree she was not intending a racist joke and the joke wasn't a product of racism, right? Do we at least agree that most likely?

0:32:57 Unattributed: Agree. Yes, I agree.

0:32:58 Thomas: Yeah. So I think what happens is white people see a backlash and then they put themselves in Ellen's place and they say, well, you know, if I just had no intent of racism and I make a joke, I would have made the same joke with Michael Phelps. And then I make it a joke that involves Usain Bolt.

0:32:58 Unattributed: I agree, and I've actually heard that.

0:33:14 Thomas: And and then people go crazy on me and call me racist. Can you see how that Because I do think maybe the backlash is a bit counterproductive. I think it's, I mean, I also, and I understand it totally, but I do think that if we are in the end trying to get a bunch of white people to think differently about race, that it might be wise to, I don't know, when there's no, when clearly the intent wasn't racist and it's just, you could easily take it as a joke of the same equivalent of the Michael Phelps meme that we've all seen. Maybe let it go. I don't know. What do you think about that? Is that unreasonable?

0:33:52 Unattributed: No, I don't really think that's... That's reasonable. Yeah, let it go. That's pretty reasonable.

0:33:55 Thomas: Okay. Well, well, there you go. All right. Black people. You know, I sometimes wonder too, if maybe the backlash is more liberal white people than it is even the black community.

0:33:55 Unattributed: Yeah, yeah. You have our permission. Yeah, it probably is. Yeah, it probably... From what I've witnessed, necessarily yeah, the very white liberals that are very, like, so, so fast to catch things like that and throw it out there just because I think they don't want to seem racist, right? Like, they're so, they're fighting so strongly against the, against that, you know.

0:34:23 Thomas: I'm Well, did you have any more thoughts? I'm curious that that's such a, I don't know, it was such an easy discussion between the three of us. I thought there would be more like, like, I thought Jabari was going to be like, no, dude, this is racist. You got to shut up and allow. So interesting.

0:34:28 Unattributed: Don't Memes.

0:34:39 Thomas: It's interesting.

0:34:39 Unattributed: I'm fine with, I'm more interested in, like, structural things and, like, you know, actual people getting, like, put in jail and uh, kicked out of school and stuff like that.

0:34:39 Thomas: Yeah, right, right. And then another thing you'll hear said is, you know, I guess more the conservative side will say, oh, you're the racist if you think that's a racist joke because she would make the same joke with a white person. So when you say she ought to treat black people differently and not make a joke involving a black person, then you're being racist. That's another thing I've heard. The more conservative side of my...

0:35:08 Unattributed: I don't really get that. It's just a fundamental lack of understanding of what racism means. Yeah, I don't really get that statement either, to say someone's a racist for finding that racist. I think maybe you're just a super lefty, right? You're part of the quote-unquote regressive left if that's what you want to use. Or something like that. I don't really see that as a valid argument.

0:35:18 Thomas: Right, right.

0:35:31 Thomas: Yeah, interesting. I did want to ask if we have another few minutes here, if you don't mind. I do always hear, and I think we're just alluding to it now the idea that you can't really be racist against white people because racism, the way we're defining it now and I see lots of online arguments about this racism, it's a structural thing I saw even a past guest of the show Ania Bula, who's white, tweeted something like I could literally, or someone could literally tell me they hate me because I'm white and it wouldn't be racist. And I want to get your thoughts on that.

0:36:12 Unattributed: I would agree with that. I would say that's prejudiced. Critiquing or attacking or doing something harmful to another person because they're racist, prejudice, but like racism is uh structural in that it keeps one race down or in a position below and like, you know, I could go out, if I robbed a white person that would be prejudice, right, if I rob them because they were white and that'd be prejudice, but that does not, you know, help and enforce a system that keeps white people poor and that's the main difference I

0:36:36 Thomas: I wonder if that's, is that a productive, because at some point I think this term was redefined without the knowledge of a lot of white people. Seriously. Oh, go ahead, Rondo.

0:36:41 Unattributed: Yeah yeah yeah so uh yeah so yeah that's exactly what I was going to say. I think if you take a more nuanced definition of racism and you define it as something else, then yeah, I guess you could say that, you know, hating a white person isn't racism. But if you are stating that racism simply means the devaluation of another race or the oppression of another raise due to basically their skin color, just due to that, you are being racist. To me, yes, you can be black and be racist. You can be white, you can be racist, and you can Asian or Hispanic and you can be racists. If you hate another race, you are racist. To me it's as simple as that. Now you can add on and you can say, well, you know, white people can do something about their racism, right? Like they can make laws that work me, but but that's totally something else, right?

0:37:38 Unattributed: Like, that's lawmaking, right, then you can use terms like structural racism, you can add on that structural word to it, right.

0:37:44 Thomas: I was going to say that same thing. I think that structural racism then becomes redundant if we're defining racism as a structural keeping down of what

0:37:46 Unattributed: Yeah, right exactly, exactly my point, exactly my point. Right. But racism itself is just a hatred or or actively oppressing or the devaluation of another race. So I think, you know, try to redefine the word, is just, it's just this gobbledygook. It's nonsense. Nonsense. I don't think that we need to do that because, because, because I personally believe we also need to call out those who are black or Hispanic and are racist. If we want to live in a peaceful society, we needto call out all types of hatred, not this, you know, uh, white on black. You're, you're a human being, you can spew nonsense the way any other human being can, whether you're white, black, Hispanical, or purple. I mean sure whatever, I mean semantic arguments, I, I, in just because, like, I mean, I have a, you know, with words it's like, it's as long as we both agree what the word means. I mean, we either agree or we don't. If we don't, we can't have a productive conversation.

So my thing is like, you know, call call it whatever you want, but we need to be have a very clear term that distinguishes between um hating somebody because of the color of their skin and um doing something that hurts somebody um because of their color of the skin.

And they are, they are different because a lot of white people conflate the two, saying, oh, no, I could never, you know, that can't be, that can be racist, I didn't mean to be racist, and intent is not, um, is

0:38:31 Thomas: Do you think Jabari okay

0:39:03 Unattributed: Not uh necessary to uh to damage

0:39:06 Thomas: Well I could buy into that. I could buy that intent is not necessary, but that's still, I still don't know that that makes racism have to be structural in order to be racism.

You know, like, I still, I could, you know what I mean, like, so I don't know, I'm curious, I tend to agree with Rondale on this and I sort of think that, I, OK, part of me worries that a lot of these disagreements that, you know, that conservatives or that white people will pick, where, you know, "why aren't you protesting when white people get killed?

Why?" You know, the essentially the "why not white people" argument, like, I get that, that, I get that that is a distraction and I don't like those arguments. And I also fear that, even if, you know, even if Black Lives Matter or black people in general corrected all these things and, like, "OK, we'll make it fair, we'll do that," that it wouldn't really stop the complaining. So I do take all that on board. I worry about it. But at the same time, sometimes there are things that I think, I wonder if it is more of a hindrance to define racism in this way, because it's unnecessarily producing disagreement where disagreement wouldn't be. You know, like there's

0:39:07 Unattributed: Yeah yeah right right it wouldn't right

0:40:11 Thomas: A whole bunch of disagreement about, wait, I can't be, you can't be racist just because you're black. Like, that doesn't seem fair. You know? Like there's whole bunch that, that I wonder if it would be better if it was avoided by, by kind of not redefining that term, or at least I don't know when it was redefined, but I, I, it seems like in the last 10 or 15 years.

0:40:11 Unattributed: Exactly yeah yeah I mean, you're not, you're not gonna, um, I mean, honestly, it's gonna be like whack-a-mole. I mean, okay, we can, you can agree on the term, but I'm sure conservatives will find something else to be angry about with black lives matter

0:40:35 Thomas: Right. And I totally agree with that. I totally disagree with that, I just, but I would say that you can still do a bit of a calculation and say, okay, maybe they'll still be mad, but this would take away a big source of just disagreement, even if not like conservative anger. Okay. Well, that's my stance on it, but it's cool. I get it. It sounds like Jabari is not terribly concerned about the semantic aspect and that's okay. That's fair.

0:40:38 Unattributed: Yeah yeah yeah Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Sure.

0:41:03 Unattributed: Define the word however you want. I mean, as long as we get concrete policy changes, I'm happy. I never get too caught up in whether or not it's pronounced racism versus prejudice.

0:41:10 Thomas: Yeah, that'S fair. But then you also don't strike me as someone who would would be, you know, active on the social media arguments of like, no, that's not racism. No, that is not, you now, and maybe that is the kind of person I need to try to talk to and see if I, yeah, hey, fair enough, fair enough. Okay.

0:41:22 Unattributed: Right. Maybe you do, Yeah, I'm more of a statistics guy, and if the math says something, thing I'll Just go with that and like, I mean Yeah. Yeah. Um.

0:41:34 Thomas: Well, I have taken a ton of your time. I really appreciate this discussion. I cannot tell you how much I valued hearing both of your opinions on this and really, this is, I am very proud of this episode because I think it allowed a lot lot of viewpoints to get out there on both sides. It's really cool. So is there anything you guys want to leave us with? Rondale, I'll start with you. Any last words?

0:41:58 Unattributed: I just wish that, uh, whenever we have an issue like a police shooting or things like that, race wouldn't be the first thing that we run to, to say, well, this is the reason why that happened. Um, just gives society a chance, and I, and I think that if you give society a change, you'll see that most people are good people and that, uh, we're trying to improve. That's all I really have to say. Uh.

0:42:15 Thomas: How about you, Jabari?

0:42:16 Unattributed: Black lives matter, and I'm going to complain and march and be loud until I see policy changes just because I haven't seen shit over the past two years, the

0:42:22 Thomas: Fair enough, fair enough. Well, I really appreciate it. Hey, Jaburi, is there anywhere you want to point people to online, Twitter, anything like that? Or are you just a private citizen minding his own business?

0:42:33 Unattributed: Ladder, man.

0:42:34 Thomas: Okay, hey, fair Enough. Fair enough. I wasn't sure we had never met. So I I wasn't sure if you had a blog or anything like that that you wanted to plug, but that's okay. Thank you both for being excellent guests and not being afraid to debate these things and have the arguments. I really, I appreciate it so much.

0:42:34 Unattributed: The ladder. Yeah. No. All Right, thank you Thomas, thanks Thomas, appreciate It, and nice meeting you, Rondo. Yeah, nice meeting you too, man.

0:42:53 Thomas: All right.

0:43:16 Thomas: All right, there you have it for the discussion between Jabari and Rondale. I don't think I want to do any commentating now. I said what I thought mostly at the time, and I think I wanna wait for your feedback, see what you think, get to read your comments a bit, and then maybe respond later if I need to. Maybe everyone will be like, yeah, that was great, or maybe I will have a hundred million people going nuts on the forums. I never know.

It's hard to tell. Thank you. But with how divisive these issues are, I would not be surprised if there are some people who have some things to say on either side, so that'll be fun to see. I want to talk about something real briefly here, I had someone email me named Karen Garst, you may have heard her on several other shows, and she was asking me about coming on and talking about her book, the book is called Women Beyond Belief, Discovering Life Without Religion, It's coming out October 1st, I want to give it a plug because I ended up telling her that while I'm totally in support of the, the project. I support what she's doing. It just wasn't really the right fit for my show because I don't anticipate there being much to debate there. It's kind of like, yeah, I agree with what you're doing. I agree with what you writing. And, and I just, I don't know, I wanted to mention it. She asked if I could plug the book.

I'm happy to do so, especially because I wasn't able to have her on the show. So once again, beyond belief, Women Beyond Belief, Discovering Life Without Religion. And you've probably heard her on a number of other podcasts by now, and I also just kind of wanted to point out that, like, I, that is something I'm doing, uh, maybe

0:44:57 Thomas: That you might not always realize or notice, or I don't know if it's worth pointing out, but it is hard when, when someone would be a good guest in general and you have nothing against them, but it's, it's like, it's not my show. I, the, the way I want my show to be now, I want to be discussing contentious stuff. I want to be having the, you know, the more challenging, uh, conversations and discussions. And that's kind of where I'm going with it. Every once in a while, something might not fit that model. Um, but I'm doing my best to filter and make sure I'm bringing you guys interesting content because in the last, I'd say half a year, I've had a lot more attention and a lot, lot more listeners. And I just wanted to let you guys know that I'm really taking that seriously, and I'm doing my best to make sure I'm living up to the high expectations that you guys have and that I have for the show.

0:45:52 Thomas: So I hope I'm doing that. Feel free to let me know whenever you want, especially if you're like on Patreon or something. Any criticism, show topic ideas, anything at all, any feedback, you can always let me know. You can't please everybody. So if it's possible that one person likes something, another person doesn't, there's nothing I can do to please both those people. That's definitely true. But within reason, if people have criticism, feedback, pointers, things they like, feel free to let me know and maybe I can take it on board. Just wanted to talk about that briefly because it's kind of interesting. So that said, I think I've got a lot of new patrons to thank. You guys have been really, really awesome. So, thank you so much to new patrons, John Reynolds, Brian Huckey, Tiglath-Pileser III, I might have thanked these people, I can't remember where I left off, Sammie, Ondrej, Chad Eckard, Boomer, David Dial, Ed orth, and Andrew.

0:46:44 Thomas: Thank you, new patrons. You guys rock my world. I hope you enjoy the early content, all that stuff. Up. Got to thank my top patrons, Hunter Ash, Jesse, Inciting Incident Podcast, alongblackcock, Kaylee Reiser, Zimu Zinu Jr., Jonathan Moyet, Jay Alden, Walt, Sammie, Adrian Borschoff, Blackhawks > Sharks, Franco Villarreal, Steve Sigmund, Peter Skelton, Brian Gareford, Dale, Matt Garrett, Ian Rosano, Samantha. Thank you guys so much. And that's it for me this week. Really good stuff. I I enjoyed this conversation, excited to see what it yields. So thank you guys for listening and I'll see you next week.