AS268: Tommentary: Is BLM Trash? Is Ellen Racist?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 268, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Okay, it's been a while since I've gotten to do some tomentating, so I'm gonna do that. It's also been forever since I got to hear from you guys, read some of your comments, and talk about them. So I would like to do that as well. Tell you what, let me give you a little sneak teaser peek of what I plan to talk about, things is Black Lives Matter the worst, or a joke, as Ms. Blair White said in a video, and then recently on Reuben Report, um... How about Ellen DeGeneres and her picture of Usain Bolt? Was that racist? And then if I've got time, I'd like to talk a little bit about Sam Harris's recent podcast on what jihadists really want, so, and more actually, so lots to look forward to, but first, let Let me give a quick update.

0:01:23 Thomas: So, as you guys know, we launched Opening Arguments on Monday, and thank you, thank you. Thank you. I am overwhelmed at the response, it exceeded my expectations, and our second milestone, our first was to be funded for a 30-minute episode every other week, our second was to be funded at a 30-minute episode every week, and we are, we are like, oh, $12 away, as, as of my recording this, we are so close, $11 away actually. patreon.com/law, make it happen. It's going to be the best, seriously guys, I'm not even, I don't even need to sell this anymore because I truly believe that all of you are pretty much on board with it as an awesome podcast idea, but Andrew and I were brainstorming even more topics and it's, there's so much cool stuff. For example, how many times have you heard some crazy person say, you know, there's no law that you have to pay your taxes.

0:02:21 Thomas: You know, they just strong arm you. I've known people who have said that and given me this conspiracy theory. And I just realized, I thought, oh, Andrew could probably explain all of that, how it works, the background of it, where that myth comes from. I mean, just all this stuff. It's, it's, and we have like 20 of those and not even trying, um, just brilliant topics that I think are going to be so fascinating. Uh, so I'm seriously, I'm so excited about, uh, opening arguments.

It's going to be great. If you'd like to head over to the Facebook, that's facebook.com/open args, so let's get the likes going there so that you can get news on it, I won't, uh, I'm not gonna continue talking about it on every episode of this show, you know, I-I'm gonna eventually move on, it's gonna be its own show, that sort of thing, I'll-I'll mention it here and there, but, uh just-just in-before it launches, I wanna try to get everybody on board, pledge if you can, patreon.com/law, and eventually we'll get to a-an hour episode every week, because you know how those part ones and twos and fours and sevens can happen, especially if we're limited to 30 minutes. So just more good stuff to come with a Patreon there. And bottom line is, thank you guys so much. I'm really blown away by how many of you are as excited about this idea as I am. And I think it's just because it's a great idea. It's a great podcast. And now let's get to the commentating, shall we?

0:03:49 Thomas: I want to start with the Rubin Report. You guys know I've been keeping an eye on that now because so many of my listeners are keeping an eye on it and believe in that particular, I guess, message or movement. And Rubin himself, I think, based on what I've heard, he believes he's starting a revolution or part of a revolution where people are just into free speech and exchanging ideas, etc, etc. And so I've, I've been paying attention to that, and I also, it's probably the biggest divide among atheism. It really is. I've been wanting to have, I've had the social justice debate, I had one, I would love to have more. I'm going to have something like that coming up, not quite, but maybe a bit of a discussion around Black Lives Matter.

0:04:35 Thomas: We'll see what that exactly turns into, but I do want to have these discussions on either side. And that's the key, because what, when you're just having one side and then pretending you're solving all the problems, you're not really doing that. You're an ideologue. That's fine. You have your ideology, but be honest about it. Be honest that your ideology is anything that's against political correctness, anything that is against the regressive left, that sort of thing. When you're having a climate change denier on your show, and when you're having someone named Miss. Blair White, who I went and checked out after she was on Ruben's show, someone who has no qualifications of any kind other than she is trans and likes to bash all the usual suspects that Ruben likes to bash, which is PC people, social justice people, Black Lives Matter, matter, that sort of thing.

0:05:27 Thomas: Like, how much longer are Ruben and his apologist fans who like to tweet me going to hide behind the, well, he just hasn't had social justice people on because they won't come on? No, they'll come on. They would definitely come on, it would not be difficult to get people who have a different view, other than screw political correctness because it's ruining our lives and that sort of view and the progressive left, etc, etc. I think the most frustrating thing is he keeps hiding behind this mantra of, oh, we just need to challenge bad ideas with good ideas. That's what we need to do. Battle of ideas, battle of ideas. And then he has a climate change denier on his show, which, okay, I mean, theoretically, there's nothing wrong with that. You have a climate-change denier in your show.

0:06:12 Thomas: I get it. You want to maybe express both sides, although, again, he just has the one side. But anyway, he has him on the show. And this climate change denier, you can look it up. It was early in the episode. His name is Alex Epstein, if you want to look it up. He says, uh, Ruben asked him, he says, well, you know, I'm not a scientist, so I trust scientific consensus, which very reasonable thing to say, and Alex Epstein says, oh, that's a bizarre point of view because in the 1920s, we had scientific consensus telling us that, you know, we needed to do eugenics because the gene pool was getting diluted, and would you, would you have done that? And Ruben says, Oh, I take your point, and it's just disappointing that you can't just try a little harder. Is it that hard to try a Little Harder Than That?

0:06:58 Thomas: That is a terrible argument. We cannot trust scientific consensus because it would have led to eugenics in the 1920s? Really? First off, that's a category error. Science can't lead us to eugenics. Science can say, science could give us data of like, well, here's what we think the gene is going to look like in some year's time, you know, and here's what you theoretically could do. But it's the is-ought problem. Science doesn't have that sort of consensus.

There's no such thing as a scientific consensus saying you have to eugenics. There is scientific data, there is scientific consensus about what experiments they've done or what data they've collected that presents the conclusion that the gene pool will look like a certain thing in a a certain time, I dispute the idea that that was widespread, that that was the overwhelming, as in the case of climate change, the 90 some odd nine, eight, 7% of scientists. Confirming that we, yes, yes do eugenics, we definitely need eugenic, that is the official scientific consensus, like that's even possible, you could have a philosophy by the way that says, well, I don't care if the scientific data says that the gene pool or whatever that means is getting worse or dumbed down or something, my philosophy is, and the philosophy behind the founding of this country, the philosophy, philosophy behind whatever your religion might be, whatever your personal philosophy is, which I'm sure pretty much everyone can agree eugenics goes against that. And we could do some work there. We can do some debate if you want, but science doesn't tell you that.

0:08:41 Thomas: Science doesn't tells you that at all. You would need a philosophy which told you we need to make the race or the gene pool a certain way. We need to keep genetics clean. Like that would be an ideology that you would have. That is not a scientific consensus. This is idiotic to say that the science was that we needed to do eugenics. I mean, it is the idea that he couldn't push back a tiny bit on such a horrific straw man. And the idea, like, therefore, that one case invalidates any time when you would agree with scientific consensus on anything. What I about that the Earth orbits the Sun? Is that cool? Can we believe that? Or does the fact that scientific consensus would have led to eugenics in the 1920s, that's out too.

0:09:28 Thomas: Look, that's out. We need to, and furthermore, how do you get the correct information? How do you say, no, don't trust science here. Here's what? More science? That's the only option. The only option is more science. You could argue that there's a minority scientific position, but you'd still have to deal with the science and look at all the studies. Just look at all the studies. Look at all the results. We can all look for it ourselves. We could have all done that with these hypothetical eugenics conclusions that we were at. We could have looked at what the papers said and said, oh, well, that's a stupid idea. We don't need eugenic because you would have to have an ideology that you wanted humans to be a certain way or to be a certain race or to have a certain IQ. You would have to have some ideology to fuel that.

0:10:15 Thomas: Not only that, look at the difference between the two things. One thing he's bringing up is literally like killing people or preventing them, or like without their permission, preventing them from procreating, which is a horrible, disgusting idea. That's about as bad as it gets. Contrast that with, hey, the globe is getting warmer and people are going to be very negatively affected by this, so therefore we should try to do something about it. Like the idea that those things are even comparable, obviously we would need to do a whole lot of investigating before you could sell me on a claim that we need to, man, stop people from procreating against their will, by the way, that would, that's a tough... uh, tough putt, as they say sometimes. Tough putt.

That would be a stretch, whereas it's a lot less of a stretch to look at all the data and look at the consensus and conclude, hey, let's reduce carbon emissions. Like, it's just not that big of a deal. Anyway. I didn't even wanna talk about that, I wanted to talk about Ms. Blair White, because that was the latest one, and this is important, because this is, I get, you know, this is half my audience, probably, it might be more, it might be, I mean, I've talked a fair amount about social justice, I'm, I am somewhere in the middle on this stuff, I think I, I lean, if, if let's say, uh, just arbitrarily, if social justice warrior or something is on one side, and then the other side is, whatever, anti-that, still don't have the right names, by the way, there's no, no names I know that makes sense. Rubinites.

0:11:47 Thomas: I don't know. People are just like Miss Blair White-ites. If that's the other side, you know, if that's maybe 10% towards social justice, 15%. But I'm all for the debate, actually having the debate. Not pretending you're having a debate. There's a very different thing. I actually have items on my list here that I suspect will go down both sides of the social justice debate, I think multiple of them, so first one is I'm going to talk about this Ms. Blair White because I think this is a very important thing. One of her videos, one of her most recent videos is Black Lives Matter is Trash, and she had several reasons for why this is. Thank you she played a clip that says, mizzou race activist hijacks Orlando vigil, so this is a vigil for the victims of Orlando, and somebody who appears to be related to Black Lives Matter gets up up and starts talking.

0:12:46 Thomas: Now, the interesting thing is, the, um, the crowd is pretty much with her actually, uh, except for like two gentlemen in the crowd. It actually happens to be a white gay couple and they, they're, they'RE pretty upset about it and dividing by race. But let me just play. All right. I'll play the beginning of this.

0:13:00 Clip: I was really nervous to get up here because there's a lot of white people in the crowd and that wasn't a joke. I wish this many people came out to our racial demonstrations and our Black Lives Matter movement. It. How are you? I don't want to stand up here and be angry because this isn't for me and this isn't you. It's for the people that we lost and the people we may lose tomorrow and the people we lost yesterday. But I thought I'd take the moment to just list out some facts that many of you probably don't know because you're white.

0:13:50 Thomas: Alright, so here's the thing about this. I want to first say that it's cut a lot. There's actually some cuts, so I don't know that the message is intact, that it might have been softened, she might have said more about the victims, it's hard to tell, and it wouldn't surprise me that this was posted with a specific agenda in mind to make this person look bad. That said, this is still bad, like, I think this is crap, personally. Um, I think getting up there and saying, I'm afraid there's a lot of white people, talking in that bored, weird, condescending tone, and then here's some stuff you don't know because you're white, I, I'm not, that's no good in my book, that doesn't, that's not gonna work, basically, is the thing. I mean, maybe, maybe it's true, I don't know, maybe the, uh, you know, us idiot white people don't know a bunch of facts that you're gonna tell, and that's fine, but, but I, that's just not ever going to work.

0:14:39 Thomas: I, I do want to resist tone policing in general, but this is a time where, I mean, there is a line, there can't be a rule of never, no, nothing can be tone policed. At a certain point, I think things can, there's at least a line of tone policing. If your tone is violent, or your tone completely unable to get your point across, or has no chance of success with anyone who disagrees, I'm going to go ahead and suggest, like, maybe that's not the right tone to take. But that's just me. So, yeah, this is crap. I think this is an example of someone in Black Lives Matter, or, again, it's the key here, is Black Lives Matter is not a top-down organization.

0:15:26 Thomas: They're not, they don't have a CEO and a PR firm and a, you know, people keeping them on message. They are a sort of an organic organization, and it's not hard for anyone to be a part of it or say they represent it or whatever. So, as I watched this video from Ms. Blair White and I thought, okay, well, she has a point here, I guess. But then the conclusion is, obviously, the clickbait title of Black Lives Matter is trash.

What are we really doing here is what I want to know. And I'm going to tell you what we're doing here. Here's what we are doing. She is picking the worst example of Black Lives Matter, or the worst she could find, something that may have been edited, by the way, or was edited, but may have selectively edited, I'm not sure, can't tell now, and she's picking that and saying this represents it, this is why the entire thing sucks, and I just, I would like you to imagine, what do you do, because there are people, I know there are listeners, I have plenty of listeners who agree with Ms. Blair White on this, what do you imagine you would do if you're in the same situation, what do you do when people say, oh, atheism, atheism sucks, it's a bunch of misogynist people, for one thing you got that guy that killed three Muslims, so they're Muslim haters, uh, you got, you sexists, who everybody worships, everybody worship's Richard Dawkins, you get, you know, when people do that, when they cherry pick, they say atheism, atheism as a movement sucks, it's the worst, it is trash because here are these examples, what do you do? Well, I am going to say, have you heard Thomas Smith's podcast, Atheismus is Crap?

0:17:04 Thomas: And you say, no, he does not represent me. I promise. No, I mean, that is what you do. You say, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You cannot just pick Craig whatever who killed three people who seem like kind of a nut. You can't pick, you know, the worst Richard Dawkins' worst day on Twitter and some of Sure, there's bad examples. There's people who troll. There are people who do all kinds of bad crap. There're atheists who down religious people, behave in ways I wouldn't endorse. That's what I do. That is what I would do when someone says, atheists suck, new atheists suck. The movement's terrible. I say, yeah, well, you know, it's got some problems. It's got some problems, but what is our core? Our core is there's no God. That's our core. That is our founding document. You know, that's our holy text is there is no God and probably, you know, God should be out of government.

0:17:54 Thomas: Religion shouldn't be in government. And in general, we'd like fewer people to believe in God. I think not all of us. Some people don't care actually. But for the most part, I'd say we'd like to get people off of this myth and we'd like religion to not influence our politics, our schools, that sort of thing. That's the core. Now, how people are going about it, I don't know. Some people are pretty bad at it. Turns out lots of people are just assholes in general. Lots of people online are assholes. Lots of people in real life are assoles and some of them are atheists and they will represent the movement poorly. Same thing goes here. So I just want to ask, I just, I'm really asking the people who are anti-Black Lives Matter or are pro-Miss Blair White's incredibly facile description and five-minute video on why it's trash.

0:18:43 Thomas: I mean, it's just, it's clearly clickbait. It's clearly a selling point. She's a trans person who gets to have a point of view that's not typical for trans people, which it's, it's totally her right to do, of course, but it's not valid just because she's trans. She still has to have valid arguments, and she just doesn't. I mean, she's pointing to one example. She has another, and it's got to be the fifth or sixth time I've seen this video of people chanting, what do we want, dead cops? When do we want it now? What do we want, dead, get some protest that someone linked to me as, oh, here's Black Lives Matter, they want dead cops. It took 10 seconds. I searched it and the original video, I think, predates Black Lives Matter. It's from like 2012 or 13 and it has nothing to do with Black Lives Matter.

0:19:30 Thomas: It's a different movement. That took me 10 seconds, but when you're motivated to see the worst in Black Lives Matter, you don't do that research. You just say, nope, they're a bunch of cop haters. They want to all kill cops. There's pluses and minuses on both sides. I don't like this, this girl who is talking about Black Lives Matter in this condescending way and being condescended toward people who have come out to support gay victims of a mass murder. Like, I hate that. So I guess that puts me in the, maybe in the anti-social justice column. I don't know. But at the same time, this video by Ms. Blair White and her appearance on Rubin is crap. It's, it's, um, it is not substantive. It doesn't, there might be a few points here and there. I agree, but it's her, her main, her Clickbait points, which I'll just take the Black Lives Matter one.

0:20:19 Thomas: Look at what's happening here. Look at what she's doing. She's making videos that white people and bigoted people who just look at the comments on these things can use to justify their hatred. They can justify their dismissal of Black Lives Matter. They can dismissal of any sort of racism or racist police policies. They can use these little things to justify that. That's what's happening there. I mean, that's all this is. And that's honestly, I worry that that's what Rubin's show has become. It's become a place where conservatives who don't normally get to spout their bullshit like climate change is fake and Black Lives Matter is a terrorist organization. They get a voice now and they get a voice under the guise of, oh, free speech, you know, we'll let everyone have a turn here at Rubin Report.

0:21:09 Thomas: What's that? They're all the same conservative talking points? Oh, yeah, that's true. I guess that is true. It's just a way to capitalize on racists and be able to get views and followers and likes and listens and all that, but still have some amount of plausible deniability, because whenever anyone calls you on it, you just say, well, you know, we have all kinds on our show, we got all, battle of ideas, battle ideas, but you're just having the same racists on or the same, you know, people with questionable views to get a platform to say whatever they want to whitewash their message to make it seem fine. And then you get their viewers because they're like, oh, this is a show where I get to see people who are going to say Black Lives Matter is trash and minimize feminism and minimize all this other stuff.

0:21:54 Thomas: Oh, I get it. That's cool. I'm going to watch this show. And then all the time, all along, Rubin has plausible deniability. And that's really the model here. That is the model until he proves it. I would really love him to prove otherwise, but that's the model.

0:22:15 Thomas: Anyone back who is a strong Rubinite and hater of everything PC, on the other side of aisle here, we got Ellen posting a picture because after Usain Bolt won his race handily and it was a really funny picture where he was essentially turning and like smiling at the camera somehow and everybody else was three feet behind him or five feet behind them just like looking like they're dying trying to catch him. Really funny photo. Really cool catch. What are the odds that that, you know, that that frame would be snapped? Pretty cool. But anyway, she posted on her Twitter or it might not be her, honestly. It might be some staffer that works at a show, but either way, her Twitter is that picture with Ellen in like a sort of exercise clothing, attire, riding on Bolt's back saying, "This is how I'm running errands from now on."

0:23:09 Thomas: Now, people have lost their shit over this. People have absolutely lost their ship. Look at this racism. Look at the racism. Racism. And then we got the other side. We got people who I'm just going to call them the Rubinites. It's too easy. It is the only shorthand way I know to call people who hate social justice people. The Rubinite, on the other hand, people in that group saying, look at Ellen. She doesn't have a racist bone in her body. Clearly, there's no intent here. What are we doing? To weigh in on this, and this is always dangerous territory, and that's tough, but here's what I think. I think we need a new word, we really do, and we don't need to get rid of racism. I'm not saying we stop calling anything racist, or think nothing's racist, that sort of thing.

0:23:55 Thomas: Racism exists for sure, and people post things that are racist, people say things that that are racist all the time. So I'm not saying we get rid of racism as a word, but I do think we need a new word for this because this This isn't racist, I don't think. I really don't. It's something, but it's not racist.

Now, you may remember, even currently, there's like a meme that goes around where Michael Phelps is in the pool and it said, like, if I were trapped on a desert island, all I would need is, Michael Phelps, a gold medal on a stick, and and there's sometimes a picture of someone writing on Michael Phelp's back photoshopped, and look, I know that I don't like the, well, what if this was white people argument, I don't like that because I do think things are different, I mean, white people don't have the same history, obviously, we have the opposite history in this country, so I'm not making that as a, this isn't racist because, look at where we did it to white people.

I'm pointing out that it is the joke, that there are these super athletes, where I'm like, the joke there is that he's going to just swim me to safety and Bolt is so fast he's just going to run me my errands at light speed. There's that. I truly believe, and feel free to disagree if you do, I I don't believe the intent or even the motivation behind the tweet was racist or had some maybe unconscious racism. I don't believe that. So the only debate in my mind, to put that aside because I just I'm personally unconvinced, I think it's just a joke, it's a joke.

0:25:33 Thomas: But the only in my debate in mind, and it's legitimate question is, well, does intent matter? Now, I've had that debate on this show with, I think, when it comes to ableist language, language, stuff like that. Does intent matter? Well, in some ways, I don't think it does, but in other ways I do. So, let me illuminate that a little bit. In what way is this photo of Ellen Ahn Usain Bolt racist? Does this suggest black people are inferior somehow? I don't really... Because that's what racist means or support... You know, all I want to say is I think there needs to be a different term. I think it should be reminiscent of racism or suggestive or obviously we'd need to come come up with a better one, but something that reminds people of racist times, because that's really all it is.

What's happening is people see this picture and they think, oh man, there was a time when when black people were slaves, when white people were in control of them, when, you know, they did their bidding, uh, that sort of thing, and this is, this, this is reminiscent or kind of suggestive of that, whereas writing Michael Phelps in, a, in the pool or on a desert island or whatever, to freedom, isn't reminiscent of that. But it's the same thing, it's the same joke.

No one, no one intended anything other than the joke with these two things. Unless you really think Ellen is some closet racist, which I just don't. I don't think the intent is there.

0:27:06 Thomas: Now, I'll freely admit this is all a pipe dream and it's never going to happen, but I do wish there was a word that was like, hey, this is an insert word here. Let's pretend the word means this This is reminiscent of slavery. And then that way it could be, imagine that. Ellen could say, oh, shit, you know what? That That picture is reminiscent of a racist time in our country. That's not good. You know what I don't, then that takes away the accusation that takes takes away the, well, wait a minute, it's not racist. It's just a joke. It has no, it's definitely not racist, he's just, she's just saying he's really fast, and she wants, you know, it takes away all that debate, and, and it, and brings it down to, whoa, wait a minute. I posted something. Now, I didn't intend to.

0:27:51 Thomas: I didn't intend to make this something, but this This is Reminiscent. Of racism, of racist times. I get it. You know what? You're right. Sorry. I missed that. I'll take it down. Now, this is never going to happen, but don't you think that would be better? Now, there are times when people just say racist shit, and it's fine to call them racist. I'm not one of those people who thinks, oh, the word's meaningless, it's never right. I think in cases like this specifically, where the intent you can pretty much tell, you know the person, she has a history that you know of, you can tell she's not a racist. Racist. She's not, this isn't even meant to be racist. This is unfortunate is what it is. And I just wish that instead of the, the accusation of this is racist, we could have a, Hey, this is reminiscent of something.

0:28:41 Thomas: This reminds people that when black people see this picture, they might think, Oh my God, that is, that looks very demeaning. That looks like back back when we were slaves and white people could, you know, essentially have us do whatever they wanted, that sort of thing. And then it would be so much easier to maintain dignity and say, you know what? That's an accident. I'm sorry. Whereas when you have the accusation of racism, you're racist, that's racist, look at this, it's racism, that you always give these, the people who want to deny that racism is even a problem, you always give them the out of, well, no, look, it is just a harmless joke, it's just a joke, look at this Michael Phelps meme, it's the same thing, it's just a joke. You guys are completely unreasonable, you know, it just gives you that little bit of goodwill, I think, and it gives you that room.

0:29:32 Thomas: So this is a pipe dream will never happen, but I did want to emphasize, I think it would make things better. I really do.

0:29:45 Thomas: The next thing I wanted to talk about was Sam Harris's recent episode. It was called "What Do Jihadists Really Want?", and actually, his second most recent episode was a really interesting discussion with this guy named Glenn C. Lowery. I didn't know him before, but Glenn is a black man who takes, I think, probably, views that other black men in America wouldn't necessarily agree with, but it's not as though he's, you totally selling out the black movement or anything like that.

He just seemed to be somewhere in the middle. I'm not even sure how to characterize it. I bring it up because I really want to, I'm having a few black atheists on to comment on it because I honestly don't even know what to think about it. And I think that I'm in a position where things that were said in that episode I may not understand the consequences of, or I may don't understand the implications of. Of. And so I'm looking forward to that. I hope that happens. It's scheduled. Really, really hoping it happens. I'll be fascinating to learn from that. But anyway, so his second most recent episode was that most recent one. What do jihadists really want? You might have caught it already.

This was absolutely hilarious to me because it's It's not a funny topic, it's actually a very depressing and violent one, and it's not fun, but this is almost as if Sam is reading from, like, if Sam had wrote a document in the name of ISIS in order to dispel all of the myths he's fighting against, that's what this would be. It's darn near is that. Like, it seriously is like, no, despite what everyone's saying, this isn't a result of foreign policy, we actually hate you, we really want to kill you no matter what, everything the regressive left has been saying is wrong, like, it's like a stone's throw away from that, and I just thought it's worth listening to just for how mind-blowing that is, that ISIS would put out a document, would put put out, well, they have their, it's, what is it, DeBeek, a magazine that they do put out. They put out a magazine.

How interesting is that? And something Sam Harris points out right away is that it's actually well-written, well-done, well edited, which is kind of disturbing when you think about it. But I recommend you check that out, I don't know, I still think it doesn't necessarily mean that That.

0:32:11 Thomas: No other factors are relevant. I do think foreign policy is relevant. I think that, though... here's what I would say to Sam, and I'm sure he would either have a good argument or agree or one of the other, but I would say while the people who are writing that magazine and ISIS have a specific viewpoint that does, that is consistent with what Sam is saying, that that is not based on foreign policy. That's actually, they just purely hate us. They want to get to paradise, all that stuff. I would say that foreign policy blunders and all that kind of thing do definitely have an effect on the number of people who are propelled toward that ideology and who find that ideology attractive.

0:32:56 Thomas: I'm not saying it's a hundred percent, I'll be more on Sam Harris's side than I am on Noam Chomsky's side, for example. I think that, I just think that it is a factor. I think it is, when you live in a world where, you know, drones are killing people from the sky and you've never known anything but this horrible war zone, you know, in some of these places, it's, I mean, that's going to have an effect. It really is. Uh, not, not a hundred percent, you know, lots of factors, but, uh, but yeah, I still recommend that podcast. Podcast. Of course, I mean, I don't need to recommend Sam Harris to you. I'm sure you already know about him. You either love him or you hate him, I'm sure, but I find his podcast so interesting because he is trying to explore new ideas, and I always get something out of it.

0:33:43 Thomas: I really enjoy it. Somewhat related to this, I just listened to an episode of The Unbelievable Podcast. I've mentioned it before. Not, I've sort of fallen off of it a little bit, but I still, I'll still skim the episode a little, bit to see what's going on. And in his most recent one, There was a Christian talking about trying to convert Muslims, and that was the topic of the show, trying to convert, you know, Muslims to Christ, and it was so interesting. There's a point about 25 minutes in, I think it was, where this Christian talks about how, he says, I want to destroy Islam, and the host asks him, well, that's not, you, know, that doesn't sound very Christ-like, like, how do you justify that, the fact that it's sort of this violence? He doesn't mean with violence, he means, He does mean with ideas, at least.

0:34:30 Thomas: He's not saying violently. But still, using that language, using that rhetoric is somewhat alarming. And he says, well, but look at the example of Jesus. Look at what Jesus did at such and such, citing chapter and verse. Look at the Bible. Look at it. Look at how the apostles did here. Look what they did there. He also said, Jesus told us we should expect to be imprisoned, to be flogged, to be killed for our beliefs. And this guy says, and I'm ready to do that.

And he even said, and so So the host, I think, asked him, you know, well, what what if are you willing to die for this? Like, are you are you ever where is your wife worried like you might die trying to convert these Muslims and potentially hostile places? And he said, yeah, yeah. No, I'm willing to Die.

It just brings me closer to God faster, you know, and I just thought that's so interesting because that's exactly the kind of thing we're so scared of with Islam sometimes, that people cannot be talked out of something because they would rather die. They believe they're going to paradise. So there's nothing you can argue with them here on earth. Those arguments don't work because someone is convinced that they're going to a better place. And it's funny that that's the exact same thing. But in this Christian, because of the particulars of this book, book. That willingness to die is directed toward things that we honestly are not a big deal. Isn't that odd? I really think to sort of bolster some of Sam Harris's points, which is why I bring it up, the specifics do matter. The idea that this guy is willing to die, well, oh, that sounds scary.

0:36:10 Thomas: What's he willing to do die for? Oh, for just talking about Christ and trying to convert people. People. It's like, okay, well, that's annoying. I admit it's a minor annoyance that this guy wants to just talk about Christ all the time, but there are worse things to be willing to die for. If someone says, I'm willing to Die, and you ask, uh-oh, what are you dying for? And he's like... well, to either kill you or to burn down your house or to destroy your country or to take... you know, there could be worse things than just, oh, well if I am talking about Christ and I'm I'm killed in a Muslim country, I'm not going to, you know, I am fine with that. It's so interesting. It all comes down to specific text in that case. Really interesting. All right, now I want to talk comments and I basically could devote any length of time.

0:36:56 Thomas: I got a comment and I got to thank this person, Devin Carey, it's been a while, like I said, I've been doing so many good interviews that I just haven't had time to get to comments, but this is a, this is an important one because it's someone who vehemently disagrees with me, so I'm going to read it. "You keep going after Tommy Robinson with lines about him being a bigot and a racist, but you've never sufficiently backed it up. It kind of feels like you're expecting us to be right there with you, and honestly I'm not. I've seen several interviews with him and a bunch of hit pieces on him and I'm not seeing where he is a terrible racist bigot. You brought up a Twitter spat with Namazi, who I defended when she was messed with at Goldsmiths, but that didn't prove that Tommy Robinson is a misogynist. Can't believe you even used that word."

0:37:41 Thomas: I nearly face-desked. "That Twitter row proved one one thing, Tommy Robinson doesn't like Miriam Namazi. He has every right not to like her. She came into that exchange looking to shame him and ruin his character. She calls him a bigot and a fascist, kind of like you do, at damn near every turn. And if you're going to do that and have nude pics of yourself at a protest, you had better expect to be mocked for it. You can say it's wrong, sure, and that we should all be like Spock and remain emotionless, but that isn't how people work and Namazi can be petty AF and it's not sexist to be petty back. I don't believe for a second that Tommy Robinson is a misogynist and it's because I don't believe for a second that he hates women. I think Mariam Namazi pushed his buttons and he pushed back and there was some low-hanging fruit and he took it."

0:38:32 Thomas: Oh well, you aren't automatically granted deference just because you thought you were changing the world by stripping naked and shouting in a public square. All right, there's still more to this comment, but I think it's good to pause here. So, regarding Tommy Robinson being a bigot, I suppose I haven't fully established it on this show. I guess that's true. Here's the difficulty with this. Tommy Robinson started something called the English Defense League, which is not an exaggeration to say this is akin to a white pride type of organization here. It was that. Do me a favor. Go to YouTube and look up any EDL video and just watch it. Just watch what this organization is. Is. It's a bunch of white people, most of whom are skinhead-looking types, shouting that they want Muslims out of the country. The best of them, you could argue, might not be racist, maybe. Maybe the best of the most want less immigration or something. Thing. But I mean, it's it But that's a very very charitable interpretation. Watch these protests, Tommy Tommy Robinson started this group. He's one of these, but you can see him in these protests.

He has done, it's a drunken, hooligan, white supremacy type group that shouts things at Muslims and about Muslims. You could make the equivalent would be someone in some sort of white pride group who is very careful to never say in America, never say like, well, and you'll even see in interviews, these white pride groups, they'll say, well it's not about racism, Look, it's just we want to maintain our culture, we want to maintain, that's exactly what the people in the EDL are saying. It's the same thing. If you want to get incredibly skeptical on it, like super hyper skeptical, well, he never used the words, "I don't like brown people" or something. But what's more important is your actions in a group that you founded.

Listen, wouldn't you expect someone who knows that he's going to be potentially dismissed as a racist to go out of his way in interviews to appear as though he's not and he's just concerned with ex, you know, oh, there's gonna be sharia law, I'm just concerned there shouldn't be shariah law, but meanwhile these rowdy groups are are being semi-violent and shouting things at Muslims and doing all this kind of stuff. Like it's, I at least agree with you, Devin.

0:41:13 Thomas: I don't like mind reading. I'm not saying everything, and I brought up the example of Ellen. I wouldn't call her racist. I even explicitly said I shouldn't and we shouldn't, I don't think, but this is a little different.

This isn't mind reading, there's a lot to go on here, and there's also good reason to expect that Tommy would try his best to not appear racist in these interviews to try to put a good face on it when you can look up these videos and what he's doing. Now. Now, I'm not a huge Miriam Namazi fan after the Sam Harris interview. I thought that was just a total crap interview and I thought it was her fault.

I thought was 92% her fault, you guys can go, I did a whole breakdown of it, if you haven't heard it, you could check back in the backlogs for it. But when she is dealing with someone who has started a racist group, it's the English Defense League, it'd be like something if there's called something something called the American Defense League and they were yelling really loudly and having violent protests about Muslims or about black people, I mean you would do the math. You could expect her to use words like bigot and fascist. I mean, it's, it, that's not, that, I mean it is what he is. It's what he's been in this group. So the unfortunate thing is I wasn't able to find the Twitter exchange.

I thought it would still be available, but I searched my timeline. I don't know how to get to it. It's been a few months. I have a good memory of what was said, and you can choose how much you want to trust my memory. It is okay if you don't, I understand. Understand I may not remember exact words but I remember the the what I

0:42:52 Thomas: Criticized and what I fought back on, and here's the thing, so you, so Devin, your, your excuse is your, your excuse for Tommy is he's mad, he's allowed to say whatever he wants when he's mad at someone like Miriam, it's just a question of getting petty and and that's, I believe that's what you're saying. This to me, and I'm really not even being hyperbolic here, I really am not, you would need to see the details of what he said, which I wish I had, this to me is like if a guy gets really mad at a black person and just says, you n-word, I can't believe these n-words, you know, that, you don't just say, well, he's just mad, you you know? No, that, that's not in my vocabulary.

0:43:39 Thomas: I could get as mad as I want at Ishmael, my, my friend Ishmaela. I couldn't, he could murder my cat. And I, it's just not in my vocabulary to call him that word. It's just nuts. It sucks. I mean, maybe it's a product of my age and how I was, how, you know, public education did a number on, you you know, anti-racism. It was basically every year of my public education was studying Martin Luther King, etc., etc. I don't have that in my vocabulary. I promise you I don't. I don't have it in my vocabulary to when I'm arguing. And by the way, the Twitter, the Miriam Namazi thing, it started as an argument. It actually, she was trying to make a point. She didn't just attack him with a name call.

0:44:25 Thomas: She started off trying to making a point about immigration, I think, something he said about immigration, and he, he just said derogatory and sexist things about her naked body, and he had to go find it and post it at her, it's, that's not in my vocabulary. Now, I, I'm, I'm sorry to be holier than thou, I really am, and I get it, people are different, I mean I guess people get angry differently, but I, I can honestly say it's just not my vocabulary to get really mad and make fun of someone's body. Now, furthermore, here's something you won't know because I might not have mentioned it, Devin. I think I mentioned it briefly in the episode on which you commented. He also started saying creepy things about other girls in the photo, not just, who were not involved in this argument.

0:45:11 Thomas: He was like, he made fun of her appearance and he said, I don't, yeah, you look terrible. I can't believe, et cetera, etetera. And then he started saying, but the girl on the right though, now she's okay. And all this stuff that was just, mind-blowing to me. He really did come across to me in my honest assessment from this conversation and from the comments. I think he even tweeted at me one of these because I was just blown away by what he was saying. He didn't understand, and it wasn't just anger at Namazi. It was other people like me were in the conversation. He did not understand that what he said was upsetting to to anyone. He, he literally tweeted back to me, like, I don't get it. Like the, look at, look at her. Like, you know, he, it's like he, he in his mind, this is totally acceptable.

0:46:01 Thomas: You can make fun of a woman's appearance. You can make fun of her body and you can say, oh, but that one on the right over there, she's, she's, you know, I wouldn't mind having to go at her at all this stuff. And that's just fine for him. He does. He literally did not understand why people were mad. So you can think of what you want of that, Devin, you can you can think what you wanted of what I've said, but I guarantee you this wasn't a question of his rage getting the better of him, because it was directed at standard, you know, standards by, is that a word? Bystanders, I guess. It was directed at them too, who were like, dude, I can't believe what you're saying, like are you really talking about these women in this photo this way? And he's like, what do you mean? He literally was confused, he said, I don't, what do do you mean?

0:46:49 Thomas: He was, it was like laughing. Like, I don't understand what, what your guys' problem is. So that's why I don't really put much stock in that argument. So I'm going to carry on because again, and I want to thank you, Devin, I thank you for listening. And thank you. For pushing back. I appreciate it. This is what I want. I'm I'm going to read this, because you really disagree with me, and I appreciate it. I think you think, this is him, this a comment.

I think, you think saying Tommy Robinson is a racist bigot over and over again, and using lines like target of Tommy's hatred, you're being convincing. You're not, all you're doing is justifying Hader when she says, Sarah Hader that is, when she says that the left is responsible for the rise of Trump.

Personally, I believe she means the far left because I'm a leftist too, and I'm getting sick of the PCBS coming from our camp, but I guess us new atheist Gamergate, yes, Gamer gate was right from the start, anti-third wave feminist types do bear some responsibility for letting this Bolshevik, Nonsense run amok. When the left screams that Trump is a bigot, racist, fascist, Islamophobe, misogynist, blah blah, even people like me who would never vote for him in a million years scoff and say, coming from you, who isn't? This wasn't meant to be dickish, I just felt it might be of worth to get a glimpse into the mindset of some of your new atheist cultural libertarian listeners when names like Milo or Trump or Robinson, who I don't think belongs with the other two, come up.

You get noticeably exasperated when you talk about Reuben, Trump, Robinson, and you sigh audibly. I do the same thing, but for different reasons. This is interesting. So, as I've already said in this show, with the Ellen thing, and honestly, I didn't even plan that. That was already something I was going to say, and then I just found this comment and wanted to read it.

0:48:34 Thomas: I swear to you, I did not even plan it, but I want to emphasize, I don't call everyone racist, all that fascist, you know, I think there are people who deserve that. I think Trump is somebody who deserves that, I believe... I won't say Trump is a racist as much. I do think he is a misogynist. I do think he does not have any regard for women. I believe that based on his actions and the things he says. Oh, my God. You can go back into the archives of Trump on. Howard Stern's radio show, and there's, it's not crazy to call him a misogynist. I think he is probably a little bit Islamophobic, a little. I don't, I think that's mostly a ploy.

0:49:20 Thomas: I think he knows he's appealing to racists, yes, racists. Actual racists in the party. Not everyone. Not Not everyone is. But I just think it's so funny. Yeah, there are plenty... Devin, I'll come partway toward you. There are plenty of cases of people calling people who aren't racist, racist, and Islamophobe, misogynist, etc. I don't think that's this. It's certainly not Trump's. Trump is guilty of at least a couple of those things, as I've just illustrated. Milo is certainly transphobic. That's not hard. Is that... do I need to... do I need to reiterate the things? I think I read his official position on his website. Just Google it. He's transphobic. He's disdainful and minimizing of trans people. I mean, I guess if you're trying to make the point that the left does this too much, that's fine.

0:50:12 Thomas: But I guess I'm defending my personal claims that I've made. So that's what, that's why I'm trying to do. And I think calling it, Tommy Robinson is bigoted. I think he's certainly misogynist. And I think Trump is mainly misoginist, mainly a narcissist, and and and doing a ploy to get political power. I'm not, I don't know how racist he is, I wouldn't surprise me, it would not surprise me if you were racist, but I guess I just wonder, Devon, like, why, why is the emphasis for you, why, why the hyper skeptic mode when it comes to these things? Like just because Tommy Robinson didn't specifically utter the words, I hate, you know, X people or something, you know, like he's, he, he tiptoes around it and he started a horrible organization that is a bunch of hooligans that violently do just, just look it up.

0:51:05 Thomas: I really, I don't get it. So that's my answer to your comment. I think it's important because there is a gap here between you and I. There's definitely a gap. I hope you don't quit listening because that's a gap I want to try to work to close within the entire atheist community, not just you and I. It's interesting. And it may involve part of us going partway and the other of us going part way. Who knows? But that's what I'm trying to do. So, Devin, overall, I want to say I really appreciate your listenership, assuming you're still listening, which you may not be. And the comment, I do. I really do. And I appreciate people who disagree with with me. I never want an echo chamber. The last thing in the world that I want my show to be is an echo chamber. Now, there may be a few no-brainers, like being anti-slavery or being, you know, there maybe a tiny number of no-brener things that, sure, it will always be an echo-chamber on a few issues.

0:52:00 Thomas: On global warming, probably, unless there's some compelling anti-global warming argument that comes up or something. But for the most part, I never want that to happen. I never do. And comments like that that, help with that. So your voice is heard. I appreciate it. And I hope we can, you know, come to some closer understanding. If not, maybe understand each other a little better. So with that said, thank you so much for listening. I've got some really great shows coming up next week, and of course don't forget to check out opening arguments when I started, we were like $1.89, as I'm finishing recording we're at $1,99, we're $1 away from being funded for weekly 30-minute shows, so check that out, that is patreon.com/law, now for my patrons, thank you guys so much, patreon.

0:52:48 Thomas: .com slash atheist if you'd like to support this show, get access to bonus content, early content, that sort of thing. Okay. I also want to mention, I'm $31 away from one of my goals, which is to start a blog, so I could have an Atheistically Speaking blog post, you could have that in your life once a week, that might be a cool thing, there's lots of stuff I could write about, I could maybe explore more deeply issues I talk about on the show or ones I don't get to talk about once a a week. So that's, we're close to that. Close to that goal. I got a lot of new patrons to thank and I definitely want to do so. Um, thank you guys so much. Heathen Street Preacher, Paul, Christopher Delvo, Jaxon Shumaker, Nicholas Vroom, Dennis something or other, Ryan Jackson, Jason Wickham, Eric Denton, Chad Eckard, Brandon Willis, Haeley, Hobo Batman, Lindsay Osterman.

0:53:41 Thomas: Oh, guess Lindsay Ostermann. Jess ODonnell, Doreen, David, Jared D Teets, Jonathan Flaucher, Cat Normand, John Reynolds, Donald's, Tronald Dump, and Tiglath-Pileser III. Ooh, that's a rich-sounding name. I feel like you need to pledge more than the dollar. No, I'm just teasing.

0:54:02 Thomas: It's like Bill Maher calls the Trump kid Thurston Von Shitbag III or something. And And of course I need to thank my top patrons as Hunter Ash, Sammie, Jesse, Inciting Incident Podcast, alongblackcock, Kaylee Reiser, Zimu Zinu Jr., Jonathan Moyet, J Alden Walt, Adrian Borschoff, Blackhawks > Sharks, Franco Villarreal, Steve Sigmund, Peter Skelton, Brian Gareford, Dale, Matt Garrett, Ian Rosano, Samantha, thank you guys so much and I will see you next week. Week.