AS261: Interview with a Chicago Police Officer

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:30 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 261, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, got a great interview today for you, but I also have a lot of things to talk about, announcement-wise, so just some things to go through. Very first, you may have noticed, and you will notice this week, that the episodes, uh, have been a bit longer lately. Now, I don't like to do commentary episodes that are longer than 45 minutes or so because I just am very conscious about how long people might be interested in me, but when I have a great guest, I was trying to limit the time, but now I'm allowing them to go longer, and I'm not doing two-parters unless it's really long, and this is because I am just so overwhelmed at the outpouring of support I've gotten on patreon.com/atheist, and and I just wanted to make sure I'm giving back to you guys and that I'm providing plenty of content.

0:01:22 Thomas: One thing people would always tell me when I do like a four-hour interview, they'd say, oh, just release this one episode, and it's like, okay, so do four times the amount of work and editing and all that, and then still need another episode for that same week. So that's the reason why I do two-parters from time to time, is it does take that much longer to work on it, and it's a little unfair to just demand that it be one episode. And me being a two-episode-a-week show, which not many are, there's a lot of pressure to get that out. However, because of just how much support I've gotten, again, patreon.com/atheist, thank you guys so much, all my patrons. I just want to make sure I'm giving you your money's worth. And so we got a nice long interview today. And then I got another very long interview Thursday, both of which could have been two So it's almost like a four-for-two deal.

0:02:11 Thomas: And again, that's just my way of saying thank you so much. I really value every listener I have, and I value, certainly value every patron I have. So thank you so much, I'm doing my best to to really earn that support that you guys have been so kind to give me. So I hope this goes a short way toward doing that. Ah, along the same lines, bonus content.

Bonus content is, I can't do it every week, but I've been, again, wanting to make sure I do something nice for you guys. So this week, patrons will have already noticed I put out a bonus episode yesterday, that's Sunday.

Where I talked with a listener, a very smart listener that I'm glad I got to speak to, she emailed me about, you know, the election and the President Trump episode, and I had gotten enough feedback on that and tweets and whatnot that I wanted to follow up on it, but again, I didn't want to take up a normal episode slot with a follow-up, again, so many good things I want to bring you now, I've met so many cool people that I am interviewing, it's really cool, it is an embarrassment of riches in terms of podcast content. So what I did was I did a bonus episode. It's pretty much full length, 45 minutes or so discussion on, it's really cool, the philosophy and morality and whatnot of voting third party and whether or not we can be justified doing that, or whether we ought to vote Hillary, even if she's not our favorite candidate, that sort of thing. And it was really cool. So patrons, check that out.

I hope you like it. And when my guest comes along on Thursday, who, by the way, was awesome, he and I recorded a bonus as well. So that'll be for next week's bonus content or rather this coming weekend. So all kinds of content for you guys. I hope you enjoy it. Really, it's a pleasure talking to these people.

0:03:59 Thomas: What I'm trying to do these days is produce content that I would myself listen to, you know, and enjoy. And I think I can say I've done that and I hope you enjoyed as well. Another announcement, now this has to be a little bit of vague booking, which I wonder if that'll be a term that takes off beyond just Facebook, but I have some really cool news coming up. That I just want to tease you about. It involves another project and I'm super excited about it. It's something that lots of people have demanded and asked for and it might be happening so keep your ears peeled for that. I'm so excited that I just wanted to vague book it to you guys but that should be really cool. Okay, now to talk about the interview coming up.

0:04:45 Thomas: Now, apologies, Elizabeth's connection, her Skype, she's not, you know, she is not a pro, this was somebody who reached out and just wanted to talk, her quality, her audio quality is not great, I did what I could to, you now, do some studio magic to fix it, it's not great. Apologies for that, can't control that all the time. But this was a really interesting interview. Elizabeth is a police officer in Chicago.

And she has a unique perspective on Black Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter, all that kind of thing. Now, I just want to let you guys know this, this is an episode is in no way meant to be like the end all for that issue. Like, I'm not having her on and we're going to solve all the everything behind Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter and the clash and all that. This interview is excellent data of a certain perspective on the police side of things, and it's, there's some parts of it that are scary to think about, that are scary to think about the implications of, and I would be happy, by the way, if anyone has any guest recommendations to talk about Black Lives Matter from any any perspective, feel feel free to forward those to me. So this is not meant to be, again, like the end all discussion, but it was very interesting and I learned a lot and I think you will too.

So the biggest thing, the thing to look out for in this interview that I'm still thinking about after having done it a few days ago is the tribalism and sort of the bullying and the tribal culture that she depicts among police. It's scary to think about. So really interesting stuff. I hope you enjoy it and here you go.

0:06:32 Thomas: Joining me right now is Elizabeth. How are you doing, Elizabeth?

0:06:36 Elizabeth: I'm good, Thomas. How are you tonight?

0:06:37 Thomas: Doing great. I am so thrilled that I saw your message in some weird Facebook folder. It seems like there's always some new message folder they're inventing for messages to get lost in, but despite that, I was actually looking for a guest for this very thing. Like I wanted to talk about sort of Black Lives Matter and, you know, Blue Lives Matter, all this kind of stuff. And I just popped open Facebook because I was going to look for a guest suggestion that I think someone had given me. And I saw your message and I thought, oh, my gosh, it's divine intervention. What do you know?

0:07:12 Elizabeth: It is in faith. Well, that's great. Thank you very much for having me on.

0:07:16 Thomas: Oh, thank you so much for coming on. So just out of curiosity, how long have you been a listener?

0:07:21 Elizabeth: A little over a year, I found you because I was trying to find a podcast to teach my two sons about the Bible. And so I found Thomas and the Bible, and then I kind of stumbled upon you from there. So you you unknowingly are teaching a class on the Christian religion to a nine and a ten year old.

0:07:24 Thomas: Oh, awesome.

0:07:41 Thomas: Oh, geez. Geez, that, I, I, man, that's too much responsibility for me. I quit. Oh,

0:07:53 Elizabeth: They like it a lot. So you're doing really well so far. So,

0:07:55 Thomas: Wow. Okay, well, Elizabeth messaged me because she is a police officer in Chicago, and that already is amazing. I was with how awful crime is, what, in that city. I mean, what led you to pursue this career?

0:07:56 Elizabeth: Um, Well, originally my original intention was to do animal crimes, and so that's what I went on the police force looking to do. Um, and I think before you get on, there's kind of this naive notion that you're just going to be able to focus on the things that you want, or like it's like a buffet, you could just, you know, pick the stuff you want to do and then not do other things. And to a degree that's a little bit true, there are some specialized units and things like that, but um, I guess I hadn't really considered what you, you have to go through to get to that point. So my intention was to stop some, like the dog fighting, instead of the animals.

0:09:00 Thomas: Right.

0:09:01 Elizabeth: Have always kind of had a special place for me, and I just think like victims without a voice is just the worst. If people, like, anything, any sentient being that can't represent itself, needs to have someone represent them. So that was my intention. It

0:09:17 Thomas: Well, that's a a very noble goal. Was it something in particular that sparked this? Was it, let me guess, was it Ace Ventura Pet Detective or was it Michael Vick, which was...

0:09:27 Elizabeth: Was, well, I got on before the whole Michael Vick thing, but I had like a small pitbull rescue before I got in the police department, so I worked with a couple of police officers during the course of that rescue, and I saw a lot of the work they did. And there were no resources for them at the time, like the local pound, of putting kits down, so they couldn't bring them there, all the other shelters were turning away because they were full. So I kind of did like a very pitbull specific rescue year. I owned a dog kennel at the time. So I was able to, I had space to do it. And that's, that's kind of how it all started.

0:09:34 Thomas: Okay.

0:10:08 Thomas: Wow. Wow, that's really cool. So when you got into the midst of it, it sounds like you found that you You weren't able to just decide what route you wanted to go, though. You had to, were you forced to do kind of something that wasn't your area of interest?

0:10:25 Elizabeth: Everyone, when they start out, you have to start out in a district, no matter who you are, who you know, for your first two years, they're going to put you in a really shitty district in Chicago. And yeah, I wasn't prepared for that. But the other thing that I found I wasn't prepared for is I, I guess I kind of lived a little bit in a bubble. I, I knew to a degree that a lot of cops that I had exposure with were kind of like, and I don't mean to paint with with a broad brush, but some might be like right wing gun nuts, but I thought there would be also a large element of people with different views and it was kind of really shocked and kind of dismayed, at least in my experience, that I didn't find any kind of different viewpoints, that it was if you were not a right-wing Christian gun nut, there wasn't a whole lot of room for you.

So in 2008 I was lucky enough to be in the district that Barack Obama lived in, and so that was really exciting for me. I mean, I was super excited and geeked, and then to find all my co-workers having these kind of visceral reactions to his election, like, oh, there goes the country, it's all turning to shit now. And I, was it, it was, that surprised me, and it wasn't just that

0:11:07 Thomas: Hmm.

0:11:52 Elizabeth: They existed, it was the fact that my existence bothered them tremendously. So, um, after I

0:11:59 Thomas: Were you sort of closeted in this view? Were you, it's always, I know what you mean to a far lesser extent, just in general, you know, being an atheist, but it seems like the stakes are pretty high, you know, much higher in that kind of culture. Were you closeted? Mm-hmm.

0:12:14 Elizabeth: I had, well, I, I wasn't at first because I thought, you know, these people can have different views and they can disagree, and they can just be a conversation. But this is actually kind of funny, after I worked, like, I hadn't worked with before, and we got on the discussion of politics. And I think at the time, like right before Barack Obama got elected, I don't know if you remember this, gas prices were outrageous, they were like five dollars something, and so that kind of started the conversation. We're talking about gas prices, I was like, well, hopefully there'll be a change. And And that'll be nice. And he's like, are you a fucking lunatic? He's like, you think there's any positive change with this president? I was like, yeah, I kind of do. And then when I got off that night, I came back to the parking garage, which is only for police personnel. And my entire car was covered in Barack Obama bumper stickers. The whole thing.

The windshield, the sides. I have a pretty big SUV. I don't know how they found this many bumper stickers, and I couldn't even get in the law, like I couldn't even really get in because like the door handle had a thousand on them and

0:12:39 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Wow.

0:13:23 Elizabeth: So yeah, so I, after that, I kind of like learned, like, you know, it's hard to discern like what could be good natured, like just I don't know, like, like, you know, ribbing someone that has different ideas, or you know, even, you know, when someone's new to a job, I guess, kind of going through like a hazy, I don't, but it was just, I wasn't, I wasn't prepared for that. It was, it was pretty crazy.

0:13:33 Thomas: Yeah. Sure, a little bit of hazing ritual, yeah.

0:13:53 Thomas: Wow, where did it go from there? Was there anything else, or were you, from then on, you just kind of kept quiet?

0:13:59 Elizabeth: You know, I think that I, I isolated myself pretty quickly after that experience. I learned not to say a lot when I worked with someone I didn't know. And if I was in a group and my political topics came up or religious topics came, I just didn't say anything. I mean yeah and it

0:14:18 Thomas: Man, I can relate so much. I worked in construction for a summer, and you're giving me flashbacks. Like, I'm having, like, actual, it's such a horrible experience when you're sort of, I mean, man, I don't even know what to call it. But yeah, it's like there's a culture that is a certain way, and it was very much that way. It's probably the same people, really, you know, construction workers who are conservative rednecks kind of people, some of the same people.

0:14:44 Elizabeth: Really it leads it leads into the conversation that we're having though of um, you know, feeling, you know, us versus them relationship, like really on a very personal level, or you know, just not being able to talk to someone with their views and then just shutting them out entirely and then my response being like, okay, I guess we're just never going to talk again, you know, so I can kind of see how things could evolve. I mean, just that one example could be used as a platform for this discussion, I think, you know, I mean

0:14:52 Thomas: What's that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and it strikes me that in cases of police violence and police corruption and or even just allegations or that kind of thing, the way that it totally fits with the picture that, you know, there's a real chance that cops are just going to stick together no matter what, you know, and that and imagine if you felt so, I get in some ways intimidated that you can't even talk like politics. Imagine how it might be if you you were trying to come clean about something another officer did or trying to criticize behavior or culture, you You know, it must be, I can imagine that, that atmosphere being incredibly, uh, uh not very conducive toward, uh transparency or anything like that.

0:16:05 Elizabeth: I can tell you right now that I will stop short of saying that it's an impossibility, but it would take a really like special person to do that, because I cannot imagine ever, I saw things that I can't unsee, but the fear of reporting it literally kept me from ever saying anything. And it's hard for people who aren't in it to understand.

0:16:32 Thomas: Yeah.

0:16:33 Elizabeth: What the ramifications would be because most cops, at least that I know, live in very small parts of the city. So the opportunities that you have for housing are kind of limited if you want your kids to go to a specific school or whatever. You have to live in a certain part of the city, and those parts of the city happen to be inundated with other cops. So if you make an allegation at work or you make a claim or you kind of make waves at work, it doesn't end when your shift ends. It follows you home. So my kids went to school with a lot of other officers' kids, and they were completely socially isolated.

0:16:33 Thomas: Yeah.

0:17:20 Elizabeth: And I never made an allegation or report or, you know, reported misconduct. It just, some simple not fitting in things, even after I was quiet, you know, and didn't say anything, the the effect was felt by them. And that's something that I think, you know, is hard for anyone to imagine, that there would be other parents are like, no, don't talk to that kid because their parent is, you know, not liked or whatever, but it's pulling to a degree that I don't think most people can imagine.

0:17:55 Thomas: Yeah, man, that's, what experience I have with it, what little experience I do have with that kind of thing, just makes me really feel for you, because it's awful, you know, and, wow, so, from your perspective, then, it's, it a shot, are the people you work with, are they the kind of people, are Are they going full Blue Lives Matter? Do you find that to be completely pervasive? Because I think maybe I was being a little too optimistic in my thinking that the sort of Blue Lives Matter as opposed to Black Lives Matter was just a subset of police officers. But from what you're saying, it sounds like that would be pretty much the majority, at least where you are.

0:18:35 Elizabeth: In my experience it is majority, and I can even give you, I, when I was in the police academy, I'm obviously there, you make friends because you're with the same people all day going through the same things, and so people kind of, I think, naturally gravitate to people, at least that they have some things in common with, you know, in that situation.

And so some people I have met when I was in the police academy, I'm still friends with on social media, and I have had more than one person from that time in my life post things like, if you don't think Black Lives Matter is a terrorist organization, unfriend me, and I just think, like, and these were people that I would, would have thought were kind of the more sensible or grounded or liberal people saying this, and you know, it did, it, I think that it is, it's, it's, you, you, you can't say, but wait a minute, black lives do matter, without just being attacked, or like, okay, now you're the out person. I really do think you can hold two different, I, I managed to hold two of different opinions. I think black lives matter. And so do blue lives. And I, I think the only thing that's making this entire situation worse is kind of having a dichotomy going

0:18:50 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

0:20:02 Elizabeth: On, where you think that one person has to be for us or against us. I

0:20:02 Thomas: Yeah. So what is the view of these people, if you could kind of put it in a nutshell, or at least, I guess you'd have to generalize a little bit, but I'd say the pervasive view on the force is it that Black Lives Matter, I mean, man, they literally think it's a terrorist organization, like they're trying to encourage attacks on police officers. Influencers?

0:20:30 Elizabeth: Am going to forward you messages, Thomas, on my Facebook feed. And yeah, they 100% think it is. And, you know, I'm going to kind of be a little bit of devil's advocate here and say that some people, some people from Black Lives Matter are making things incredibly difficult. And so it's Not that I can't understand that response, because I can, but I just think that it is so simplistic and so elementary that I would be embarrassed to say something like that, because it's just, it's, it's just surface level. And I don't, yeah, I don't know. I, I don't know, I don't know what else to say about it besides that, except that I am kind of shocked at how really on both sides this has been deduced to for us or against us.

And I mean, it wouldn't take a detective, no pun intended, to look on the internet and see people from Black Lives Matter posting really horrible things about police officers, like, Go out and kill them if you got a gun. Pick a pig off. I mean, really terrible things that that lead to this divisiveness. And I guess like the one thing I wish I could get other officers to understand, because that's where I think maybe I would hopefully have some sort of impact, would be by doing that, by saying, like, oh, Black Life Matter is a terrorist organization, they're not furthering. Officers are not furthering their own end, which they report to be, or purport to be, having officers go home safely and alive every night. If you are saying things like, well, Black Lives Matter is a terrorist organization, that is getting black lives, you matter,

0:20:52 Thomas: Sure. Right.

0:22:22 Elizabeth: More angry and more apt to act aggressively. I'm just, I'm Juste saying That it's not furthering police officers' ends of staying safe, that if you maybe just stopped and listened and said, you know, okay, I may not agree with everything, and there's some people in within this group that are really saying some things that are making me afraid, that I, you know, making me worried for my life, however I can understand where the anger is coming from, I just think that that kind of openness, that that little extension of an aisle print, would actually serve police much better. I'm, I just

0:22:28 Thomas: Yeah. But who's going to do that? I mean, like you said, I mean you can't even talk about supporting Obama. How in the world, you know, how's somebody going to do that.

0:23:13 Elizabeth: I Think it has to stop or start, I'm sorry, from the top down. So it starts With The bosses. I mean, they, there, there are little verbal things that are done in roll call meetings and memos and in police meetings that create this dichotomy. You know, people will, I've had bosses say things like, oh, we're gonna have to, you know, you're assigned to the Black Lives Matter rally, you have to go protect those wonderful citizens, and it's said in such a way as, you know, you have to go protecting these horrible people, like, but they say, like, they'll say, oh, these wonderful citizens, but it's sarcastic.

And so you are telling police that they're going into a bad situation, and you're making it, you're already creating an us versus them, rather than, you know what, I know these are trying times, and I Know that it's easy to feel afraid, but when you go out today, try to have a sense of understanding. Yes, have all your senses about you, yes, protect yourself, but have a sens of understanding of what these people are mad about. And like, just some empathy would go a long way. And these little verbal kind of little tiny things that, if anyone called a boss out and said, hey, you know, saying that is, you know, you're creating a bad environment for everyone one to be like, oh, well, I called them wonderful people, like, I, it's that passive aggressiveness that's just, it's hard to pin down, and it's dishonest, and it makes things hard, but

0:23:18 Thomas: Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah

0:24:44 Elizabeth: I see A lot, um,

0:24:44 Thomas: Well, can we talk about the issues of that spurred the whole Black Lives Matter thing in the first place from your point of view? Do you, what do you think Think about issues of possible racism and how police deal with suspects, Disproportionate number of black people killed by police. What are your views on all that? And furthermore, have you had any interactions or experiences with other officers that sort of would tell us what their views might be on this kind of thing?

0:25:17 Elizabeth: Yeah, sure. So when Alton Sterling was shot, I hadn't seen the video, I wasn't at work, I had no idea that it happened. So I was at home, and I saw the Philando Castile video, and I, I didn't see it like, but I saw very shortly after it was posted on Facebook, I would say probably within half an hour or something, I saw it. And at that point there hadn't really been a lot of news coverage, but I was watching, I'm like, this is so horrible, like, I'm watching a human being die on my screen, and this is terrible. That was my response, like, my heart broke for, for this person's family. And then, and within an hour or so, there were a lot of comments on social media from police officers saying, oh, you know, he was a shitbag, he deserved to die, that probably wasn't even your boyfriend, that was a dope boy.

0:26:12 Elizabeth: All of these comments kind of coming from other officers, like slurring this victim that they knew nothing about, like literally nothing. They knew nothing. And They're making these comments. And that's what bothered me. It bothered me to see someone die, obviously, however, I can tell you with all honesty that I was willing to say, I don't know what that officer's position was, because I could easily be in a position where I feel like someone's going to shoot me, and I can turn around and shoot them, and then have made a wrong call. And I could also tell you that it would not be because I was trying to go out and shoot someone that day, or Trying to be judgmental or anything.

And so, I mean, on the opposite side of that, I, I saw social media, um, posts saying, oh, wait, the racist white cop shot him, and like, They Didn't He Wasn't white exactly, and, and how do they know that he was racist? Did he say, like, nothing in that video showed him as being racist, and nothing in the video showed really doing anything that would indicate that he shot this person because he was black. Likewise, there was absolutely nothing known to show that this person who was shot was not a good person, was not an upstanding citizen. So, like, this rush to judgment, I saw kind of from a very unique perspective on both points, just like people saying, oh, the cop murdered an innocent person. Well, he didn't go out, he didn't plan that day to go out and murder an innocent person, I can say with all honesty.

0:26:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:27:06 Thomas: Well, he wasn't white, but yeah.

0:27:54 Elizabeth: And I can also say that anyone in that situation can't know how they're going to react. And at the same time, that's not what bothered me. What bothered me was that police officers who should have been the first ones to say, we feel so terrible for this victim. Let's wait and see what happens. Let's see what's Going to come from this. Instead of any kind of, you know, period of asking questions or trying to give support or saying, like, you know, it's terrible someone lost their life, they were so quick to jump on the victim and just say, oh, he, he probably had it coming.

And in a couple of my feeds, one cop that I know said something to that effect, like, let's just withhold judgment until we find out, you know, let's, let's find out out what happened, and then you guys can all judge. And he just got pounced on, like, he just got trounced on social media.

He eventually had to just be like, okay, I'm turning this off, and I'm never coming back to this, work again, because he was attacked by fellow officers saying, you know, oh, you're probably a piece of shit yourself,

0:28:16 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:02 Elizabeth: Like all of these other things that, and the only thing he said was, let's find out, and It was like a feeding frenzy on this, on this person, and I was, you know, I was really kind of ashamed at that minute, you know, like, how can people act like this? But like, in a moment of full disclosure, I guess it should have been incumbent on me at that point to say something like, you know, that's terrible that you guys are ripping apart this other person who's just saying, hang on a second. But I can tell you that the fear is so real, of just being having it come to you, that I said nothing, like, literally, I said said nothing. So, you know, I don't know if that answers your question, but that's how I did

0:29:08 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:29:42 Thomas: No, I can certainly understand it. And I so the one you've mainly been talking about is the one in the car, right? Where we don't actually see the shooting. But I'm wondering, what about the other video? Did you have any thoughts on that? Because I actually said, I don't know if you heard the episode, but I said the same thing that, you know, we literally did not see the shooting in the video. So we have someone's word about what happened, but I mean, you can't really, it's hard to be a hundred percent certain one way or the other, just based on someone's word. Whereas in the other video, outside the convenience store, I mean we did pretty much get to see all of it. Did you have another opinion on that?

0:30:22 Elizabeth: Eventually see that video. And, you know, again, I'm just going to give you, I don't, I know it's hard to put myself in that position. And I think if you, there were two of them, which is the only thing that changes things for me a little bit. Like if it were just me and I was kind of kneeling on someone's chest and, and they have, let's just say, let's assume that what the cops are saying, that the guy had, that Alton Sterling had a gun, right? And it was in his hand, but the guy was, was kneeling on one person, there then I could see shooting him, and I know that that sounds terrible, like saying the words hurt me, but two people makes me think so.

0:30:33 Thomas: There has to have been a way, it seems like. I mean I can't, with that one I really had a hard time. I'm not, you know, I'm not an officer. I don't, I don't know what the training is. I know all that, but I had a hard time believing that with two people on top of somebody pinning his arms, like I just had a really hard time believing that couldn't have been avoided. But

0:31:18 Elizabeth: If that person on the ground in the Alton Sterling case, um, had a gun, which for the, you know, purposes of this conversation we'll say that he did. And now he's in a position where two officers are on top of him and he, let's say he is reaching for that gun, his intent is pretty clear at that point that he's going to shoot you, you know, if you have a gun on you and police are now in your presence and they have, you know, tried to take you into custody, they allegedly, they tased him, they were on top of him, and that person is still going for their gun. And that, if, if all of those things are true, let's just say that they are, I don't know, and I'm not trying to say that.

0:32:00 Thomas: Sure.

0:32:00 Elizabeth: I do know it, it is still very possible that he is going to kill me and shoot me. And I know that that sounds so crazy, like, how he, if he is, if he's still going for his arm, is going for that gun, it is not that much of a stretch for him to shoot me in the back. It just isn't. And, and that's really hard for the public to hear because, because it seems so unlikely. But, you know what I think, um, in this entire situation for, for everything, some empathy, some training for offered to everyone about use of force and about these situations where they can be in the role of the police officer.

Some police academies do this, where they invite the public or protesters or community leaders to come into the department, department, go through a use of force training seminar, and they put them in these situations where they're trying to, where the, the, the public will have to take the role of the officer, and they will be told, okay, it's, this is a life or death situation for you, you, you know, if you don't go home tonight, you don't go home, if you get shot that's game over for you. That changes the, that changes the perspective, I, I can't imagine a person that, that wouldn't change the

0:32:18 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah,

0:33:14 Elizabeth: Perspective of when, when it comes down to your life. And it's, it, or your partner's, could very well go, that this person has intent of killing you if they need you to get away, and that they will. I don't, I, I'm just saying, I don't know in that instance what I would do. I can't say I would, I would really take someone's life. It's really hard for me to put myself in the shoes of that officer. But at the same time, if it's my kid's mother dying or someone that is trying to kill me dying, I think probably that someone's trying to kill me is going to die. I know that that sounds terrible.

0:33:15 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I can totally understand that. One thing that's really confusing for me, though, and I don't know if you know the details or whatever, but like, how on earth did it get to that situation? Is it maybe the case that it's the lead up that's the key more so than the actual struggle? You know, because once you're I've heard, you know, Sam Harris, I've heard people talk about once you are struggling with an officer, like you all bets are off. I mean, that person, even if they don't have a gun, they can get your gun like your life is threatened in that moment. So I get that for sure. But how did it get to that point where two people can't arrest the guy? Like, like, what is it? Do you would you guess that he just was refusing to go quietly? Was he how did they even get to that point?

0:34:39 Elizabeth: It would just be pure speculation if I were to say it. I really don't know. I can say this, that in my experience, however limited that is, officers do generally have the power to use their verbal skills to defuse a situation. And you make a choice if you're going to make something worse by being angry, and you know, responding in anger and getting someone, you know, really aggravated, or you're gonna say, hey, listen, right now we're gonna work this out. But if someone has a gun, that changes that entire thing.

0:34:42 Thomas: Okay. Mm-hmm. Sure.

0:35:14 Elizabeth: Everyone then is put into fight or flight, you know. And so it's just, I know, I know it's really difficult for anyone to say, but I can tell you, my experience, there usually, usually are ways to talk to people, you know, how you approach the situation is going to determine how it, how the outcome is. That's not always true, but generally, if someone is mad and you're going in there and saying, okay, listen, I want to help you, I have to understand what's going on, tell me what's going on, and you approach it like that, like, tell me how I can help you with this situation, situation, that kind of settles people down, you know, for the most, for the most part, not always true, you know, some people see that, it's entirely disingenuous and it makes them more angry, but I mean, it's really hard to imagine a situation where you're going into someone and saying, listen, let's figure out how we can solve this, and they're like, no, it's not, some of it, let's shoot you instead, but I suppose it happens, you know, absolutely.

0:35:15 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Yeah, I, I know there's definitely a way that, that, uh, just thinking about experience with, I don't know, a bar fight or something. I mean, there's a way you can engage another dude that's a, that's uh, like uh, you mean to get in a fight with them, you know, like maybe you're not saying it, but the way you're saying things is not trying to actually diffuse the situation. You know, I certainly, I've heard people talk about that, actually. I had Bobby Carey on the show a couple of years ago now to talk about this very thing. And there is a way you can talk that promotes escalation, and there's a way that really seeks to de-escalate, I think, I mean, in my amateur opinion.

0:37:02 Elizabeth: And I think that that's true for both parties, right? Like if you have a gun, let's just say that Alton Sterling did, and you have officers coming at you in an angry way, you also choose how you're going to respond to them. It's also very difficult for me as an officer to go into a situation and have someone being like, yes, let me cooperate here, here's what I have, you know, and picture myself being like, no, you're terrible, and I'm, like like, riling them up.

I, I, I know people that do, so I'm not going to say that that doesn't exist, but it's hard for me to imagine doing that, like if someone's treating me nicely and saying, yeah, you know what, you're right, let's, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do, whatever, they're going to say like it's harder than imagine someone trying then to make a situation worse on both sides.

So I think, I think that the ultimate thing that I, I think is going to help this, and I think that's why you're having this conversation, because people want to find maybe solutions, is accountability on both sides.

0:37:05 Thomas: Sure. Right.

0:38:08 Elizabeth: So if you're an officer and you're going into a situation where you know it's like a really charged situation, the energy you bring to that is going to be your best defense of getting out of their lives. So if there's a really heated situation and you are going in there with a calmness or like a presence of mind to have a conversation, then that's what you bring. And that's kind of like a protection, you know what I mean, you're, you're increasing your own chances of survival.

That also being said, if you're a minority and you're stopped by the police, when you, when you engage in a really calm way, in a non-threatening way, it's increasing your own chances of revival. Now I know that people are angry, and so that's really hard for everyone to keep focus on, but that is everyone's end, right? And like the Black Lives Matter movement wants black lives to be preserved, well the way to do that is not by saying like, fuck the police, the way to doing that is instructing members of the community, like, listen, you bring, you bring a presence to whatever situation you're in, and you can bring calmness and, you know, dialogue, or you, you can bring anger and hostility, and that's going to, I'm not going to say cause you to lose your life, but it's going to increase your chances of getting the end you want, which is presumably for everyone to go home alive. I'm assuming. I mean, does that make any sense to you

0:39:39 Elizabeth: At all, what I'm saying?

0:39:39 Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I, I think that Black Lives Matter would, I, think they're, they would look at that as sort of an injustice in some ways that it's not, I mean victim blaming a little bit. Um, but I think on an individual level it certainly makes sense. If I were black, if I was trying to advise a friend who is black who I cared about, I would say, for the love of God, just for your own survival, please.

0:40:13 Elizabeth: Right. Isn't that what Black Lives Matter wants? They want like I

0:40:14 Thomas: Right, right. But I think they would also say they want to get to a point in our society where where black people are able to act the same way white people would around cops, and they don't have different consequences as a result of that. And I don't know, I'm not sure what your view on how much that happens or how much there that does change the interaction, just merely the color of the person's skin. I feel free if you want to give an opinion on that, but I think that's that might be what they would say.

0:40:49 Elizabeth: 100, agree with you, and in theory that it is, you know, that you should be able to act the same, being the, I can only put in context my kids, because they're who I care about most, being the parent of boys, I, I want them to survive, I, it's totally secondary, is them being able to to act like everyone else acts to me personally, like when I care about someone, the only thing I really at the heart of what I care About is them being okay. And I think, in a way, Black Lives Matter would, would get the end that they want more effectively, if they kind of approached it, just from that framework, like, like what we want is independent of what white people do. I mean, I'm just saying, like, I, you know, if you want something for yourself, you, you want it. And like what other people do kind of, I don't know what time it is. You know, I just feel like it should be independent. And then you take up the other issues later. And I'm not saying that it's not an unlevel playing field.

0:41:02 Thomas: Mm hmm. Sure.

0:42:04 Elizabeth: It absolutely is. And yes, all things should be equal. But when you, you kind of are in the midst of a crisis. And what you're saying is that you want people to be safe, then figure out ways that they can be safe and then approach the problem. So I think that you can have both. Again, I don't think that there has to be a dichotomy of we don't need to foster what we bring to the table as being positive. And at the same time, let's change what's going, because we're all aware that there's a problem. I don't think that those two things have to be mutually exclusive. I think you can, I really do think that the only way to do this is to be able to entertain both of those independent ideas.

0:42:28 Thomas: Yeah. Right.

0:42:52 Elizabeth: Yes, there is inequality, but what we want is for people to go home at the end of the day. How do we accomplish that? Okay, great. Let's do that. I don't think that those two ideas of we want everyone to be safe, everyone, and we want to address inequality. And I think that until you can get to that, you know, kind of nuanced conversation, that it's not going to get better. Like there has to be change on both parts.

0:42:53 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:43:24 Elizabeth: Like I'm going to bring positive energy to this. I'm not going to allow anger and divisiveness to cost another life. But at the end of the day, what I want is this, is for everyone to be safe and to have equality. OK, so let's keep those two things separate and let's go. I mean, obviously, that's kind of pie in the sky answer. But I think that the way it's handled now and on both sides, again, I want you to fully understand that. That I don't think that this is Black Lives Matter people in singing this. I hope I kind of made myself clear that I do not think that at all.

And that I totally understand their anger. I mean, watching those videos upset me viscerally that a person was killed. And I really can't even imagine how it would feel. You know, I would be so angry that that people like myself or people I know and love are, I am angry that people I knew him up could be just victimized for no, no reason. I mean, apart from the color of skin, that's, that's horrifying to me. But like you said, if you had a friend or someone you really cared about, all of that would be kind of a moot point when you just want them to, you, you know, to be able to talk to

0:43:44 Thomas: Right. Yeah, yeah,

0:44:45 Elizabeth: You again?

0:44:47 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I think that I mean, I think that should be pretty uncontroversial among rational people. But yeah, I do think the biggest issue is the doubling down on both sides. I mean you talked a lot about that on the police side on, on the, the minute these videos surface, officers are, are, you know, talking about the victim in disparaging ways without even knowing anything about it and that sort of thing.

I mean, in the same way, I would say in fairness, Black Lives Matter and the online community does a lot of sort of making the victim into a saint preemptively. You know, it's kind of interesting that there's those two, because making the perfect victim, it kind of ends up disappointing you when you do find out in some cases that, oh, wait, maybe there was cause, maybe they did have a gun, maybe they were behaving irrationally, whatever it is. So those knee-jerk reactions aren't helpful on either side, but I really don't know how to do it. How do we fix this? I really think that we're if trying to fix this problem, how do you fix the police side of it? What do you do? Like you said before, people from higher up encouraging a better But what about training? I was going to ask you that. How do you feel about the training you received and how it would prepare you for a situation like this? Do you think it was adequate? Do you think was biased in any particular direction that wasn't good? Or what do you think?

0:45:44 Elizabeth: No.

0:46:17 Elizabeth: You know, I really don't think it was biased, but I can tell you this, like before I owned dog kennels and got a police department, I've had a thousand jobs. I studied psychology. I was very interested in brain and behavior, but I also did some studies into social psychology. So I think empathy training would be money Well spent. You know, I think that there are a lot of social psychology studies that indicate when you randomly divide people that are in one group and rent, divide them into two and give one group access to resources and the other group, no access to sources or limited access to resources. And then you ask the same things of them. The side with resources starts to to automatically demonize the side without resources.

Like, "Oh, you know, we're ready to exercise." "Yeah, you're ready exercise because you have water, you got to rest and, you know, you were able to sit down, whereas we were standing in the hot sun" or whatever, let's just say. And so you look at performance. And so the group with resources will always outperform the group without resource, but the group with resources tends to see the other group as somehow less than them, independent of their access to resources.

0:46:38 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm.

0:47:36 Elizabeth: Does that make any sense? Like there's been a number of studies to indicate this. So I think that that happens a lot in society. When you're looking at this as a problem, I think officers really need to understand what poor communities go through just to get through a day. Like literally, it's not the same thing as officers go through to get to the day. You know, their kids get access to a decent school, whereas someone in a poorer community, you know, their, their kid might not have a teacher or whatever, whatever the case is, or, you know, everyone around them is dealing drugs and they somehow have to drag that person up and make them a decent person.

Well, I can tell you honestly, that if I was put into that situation with no resources, I, I don't think I would behave any differently than then how people behave without resources right now. I mean, I would only have to assume that I would be average, right? And I think that there is something to be said for empathy training in the police department of what it feels like to be raised in an urban poor environment and what that could possibly feel like in me and how it would feel to you if you had to do it. And I I think there is a way to do that. I really, I believe that there has to be,

0:47:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

0:48:54 Elizabeth: Whether it's, you know, just a week of exposure to how that feels, maybe spending time within schools or neighborhoods prior to getting on the job to see what that's like. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know.

0:49:11 Thomas: Yeah. But in terms of like actual use of force, you feel like the training you received was adequate in order to be able to make a fair choice and to do your best to, you know, not take anyone's life unless you had to, that sort of thing.

0:49:26 Elizabeth: I mean I, I do, but I do think that I came from, from a, like a unique place. I don't know that even before, like when I was in the academy or at any point on the job, it's hard for me to say that I would, how does this make sense, I don't know that I would have ever followed the use of force, it's so, it's hard for me to imagine taking someone's life, like I literally don't know.

0:49:52 Thomas: Even when you get stuck in the worst district of Chicago, huh?

0:49:54 Elizabeth: Yeah I work, I work at Inglewood, I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but It's it's the capital of the world, so, and it's still like I cannot imagine, like, taking someone's life, that would be like soul-crushing to me, I don't know how I would get up the next day, I really don't, and that being said I mean

0:50:01 Thomas: I've heard of it. Yeah.

0:50:19 Thomas: Were you just lucky to not be in a situation? I mean, is that all it is a question of? You were never in the situation? Or do you think that that attitude somehow, I don't know, it's like some sort of weird self-fulfilling prophecy where if you go around with the attitude you have you're not going to experience as much. I, yeah.

0:50:36 Elizabeth: I think, I think it can be both, honestly, again I don't think it has to be, it can't be a combination for sure I can tell you this that said that I can't imagine how I would live knowing I took someone's life I cannot imagine what I would do if someone shot my partner to death and I didn't protect them or if I didn't prevent someone from killing a child, like how I knew I could, I don't know how I'd live that either, so that, that, you know, it's a very interesting moral question to me, and I think it's probably the answer has just kind of become evident through, through this conversation, is that I probably did just get lucky because either way, no matter what, I mean, it would be extremely hard to live with either way.

0:50:40 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Can You think of It. Can, it was there ever a situation that you think you might have de-escalated that had it been, maybe for, for a different approach of yours, might have resulted in violence with, like, a suspect or with, with a member of the community? Is there anything you can think of? Hmm.

0:51:40 Elizabeth: I can think of both. I can think of times that I escalated situations that I brought, you know, I can think of a lot of times where it could have gone really different if I just maybe had a clear mind, maybe went in less aggravated for whatever reason. I think things, things could have gone both ways. I think I could have escalated a lot of times and I didn't. And I de-escalated things a lot of times. And I could think of a couple instances. I remember two really clearly that when I'm playing them back in my mind, I was like, you know, it didn't have to go that bad. It could have been better if I just stopped, thought, said, okay, let's talk about this. And, you know, and I did, you Now, I can think about it, both. That's not a good answer, though, I mean, that's

0:51:44 Thomas: Well

0:52:28 Elizabeth: Like a, that's a political answer again, and I don't mean I

0:52:30 Thomas: It Is A good answer in that you still, you never shot anyone, or, well, you never took anyone's life, you said, I don't know if you shot at anyone.

0:52:37 Elizabeth: Never. I, I, I never, even, I've never drawn my gun on anyone, like I can tell you that like they

0:52:41 Thomas: But Right So When you say things escalated, they only escalated to a certain point, they didn't, they didn't escalate in the way we're talking about with some of these shootings that, would you know, we've been talking about, right?

0:52:53 Elizabeth: Escalated to like an arrest where maybe it could have gone with, okay, what we're going to do, we're just going to file a report on this, but it didn't go that way, and I think, if I'm going to be completely honest and completely fair, it could have gone better for everyone, both for myself and other people, but I never put anyone in the hospital. I never, you know, like to the best of my knowledge, never hurt anyone, you know, certainly not with any kind of lifelong injuries or anything like that. But that being said, it's, it's super tricky.

I do want to tell this one kind of story. This is, I have two, two interesting stories from the police department. So this, this one, this one time, I don't know if listeners, or you're aware, but if somebody gets arrested a lot, let's just say they're kind of used to getting arrested. What, what happens sometimes is these people then claim that they're sick because then the police have to bring them to the hospital to get checked out before they get arrested. So it kind of postpones their arrest for as long as, as, you know, it takes to get them cleared from the hospital. So even if they haven't been touched by an officer, there's one incident I'm thinking of where these officers arrested this woman for solicitation, which is prostitution. So she was arrested, and she was, she'd been arrested, I don't know, hundreds of times for this same offense.

And she was at the hospital for longer, longer than that, than those officers' shift lasted. So then I came on duty, myself and my partner had to go at the hospital and wait for her to get cleared so that we could bring her down to processing and check her in. And so we were there waiting. And while we were waiting, a doctor in the hospital brought her, went out to the, like a restaurant, and brought her some fish, which was fine.

0:53:00 Thomas: Oh She's

0:54:47 Elizabeth: So we're waiting, I didn't really care. And they brought her food into her. And I I told her, I'm like, you know what? You might want to eat that now because when they say you're clear, we really have to go. By this time, it was already toward the end of our trip. So we had been at the hospital for a very long time.

0:55:01 Thomas: Really filibustering a long time is what you Say

0:55:03 Elizabeth: She was filibustering a very long time. And she's like, no, I want to take a nap, I'll eat it when I'm ready. And I was like, fine, but if they come back in and say you're clear, you are not going to get to eat it because you can't eat it in the car, and I'm bringing you down to lock up, and then that's going to be it. And he didn't care. Like, she was like, no, going to eat when I am ready. I think she thought, like, well, then when they, they cleared her, we would then wait for her to eat her fish. And then we would bring her to lock up. Right. And so she got cleared, and it was about an hour to go on our shift. And I took her tray of food and I moved it. And I said, okay, you need to put on your clothes now, and we're going to go. She said, no, I'm going to eat my fish. I said, no, you're going to put on your clothes. She grabbed, she wasn't, she wasn't restrained.

She only had one restraint on, one, one of her hands, with her other hand she grabbed the fish and she shoved it into her mouth, and then she chewed it up and she spit it all over my face, and um, it was like in my eyes and it was in my nose, it was all over the place, it was dripping.

0:55:24 Thomas: Weaponized Yeah

0:56:05 Elizabeth: Yeah, it was just like dripping down my face, and all I could think about in that time was like the same way that you would feel if somebody spit, spit fish in your face. You'd be like, I am going to punch you in your face right now. That's what's going to happen. You spit fish all over my face, and now I'm going to punch you on your face, because that's a natural human reaction. I didn't provoke her. I didn's do anything. I told her she needed to eat, and so that when she was clear, she could go, and she didn't care.

But all I could think of at the time is there will be someone with a camera filming me, and then it will go on YouTube as police officer punches innocent innocent, handicapped woman in hospital who was restrained, which is a false narrative. That is not what happened. I didn't punch her. I did not do anything. I wiped the fish off my face. Then she got dressed. We went to lock up. I made a report. That was as far as that went. I guess people's response would be like, well, then you need to file an additional charge on her. And you, that's a very reasonable response, obviously.

The problem is, with someone like this person I was dealing with, they don't care. She could not have cared less if she got an additional charge. That that didn't make any difference to her, didn't making a difference to anyone, that there was an additional charge, and I know that that was the rule and it was, was followed, but in that minute of having to

0:56:16 Thomas: Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Hmm

0:57:32 Elizabeth: Go through that, you, that stuff does matter, do you know what I'm saying? It's like the fact that this has absolutely no impact on her whatsoever, but it has a huge impact on me is, is unfair, and the only thing that I could think of was I will be completely falsely accused and tried and hung out to dry the second that this goes viral, which it, it will. And so I just wiped the fish off my face and carried on. And that's, that's that sucks, too. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not right, either.

0:57:55 Thomas: Yeah Yeah Is that a lot of what prompts this feeling of, I, uh, guess, blue lives matter, is just instances where they have to deal with abuse from criminals, or, you know, that kind of thing? Do you think that's what feeds into that, is it, is their, their sense of being victims in that way? Yeah.

0:58:21 Elizabeth: Yeah. And I, yeah, and I know that that's real. So I don't mean to like minimize that, I, I think that's really, I think that the police being shot these past couple weeks, these officers losing their lives, these last couple weeks, has kind of proven, has proven that true, that they have a real reason to stick together. That being said, I don't think that the answer is to then say Black Lives Matter as a terrorist organization. I think the answer is to bring empathy to the table, and that's really hard to do when you're scared for, for both people, you know.

0:58:22 Thomas: Mm-hmm Yeah.

0:58:57 Thomas: Let

0:58:58 Elizabeth: For both parties. Super hard to be empathetic when you're, when you're feeling hatred and you're feeling scared. Super hard. The Other, other thing I was going to say is on both, like I have very few people, like, in social media on both sides. I obviously have a lot of civilian friends. I still have some friends who are police officers. The police officers that I see don't ever seem to put out anything. And I touched on this a little bit, like, you know, they'll have their Facebook feed or whatever. It's never like they're sharing the story of, um, you know, the Black Lives Matter, or or just victims, they're never going to share that story. And likewise the people who, you know, tend to be more supportive of the Black Lives Matter movement don't seem to have any outward or public sympathy for the officers who lose their lives.

And I think that that's, that's hard too, when you get people that, that, you know, their views are just so clearly one or the other. And and all that people see is, oh yeah, these people are just posting, they don't care about the cops who lost their lives, they only care about the the citizens who lost our lives. And likewise, police officers aren't very quick to say, you know what, there are kids that don't have a father anymore because Philando Castile lost his life. And that sucks. I don't see either of that on either side. And that's really unfortunate, because I think, I can tell you from my own personal perspective, I have family members and friends who post endless stories about victims of police brutality.

0:59:05 Thomas: Yeah

1:00:42 Elizabeth: And then when officers die and they have a family member who's a police officer, as a matter of fact, they have many, like, not a peep, like, nothing, it's like, that that sucks, like, don't do that

1:00:50 Thomas: Well, that goes into like just building these echo chambers that we build online, it's really unfortunate how that works. I mean, people, people just want to see the things they want to see. And then pretty soon Facebook is catered to that and all that, you know, it doesn't, it just doesn't help. But, you know, one more general police question that I've, I've read a column about, I think there was a New York Times column. What do you think about how much police officers get paid? I mean, one thing that it brought up was that we expect police officers to be perfect and on 30K a year, you know? And it's just like, is there a sense that the expectations are a lot higher than the pay is? What are your views on

1:00:54 Elizabeth: No No.

1:01:35 Elizabeth: No. Not at all. I don't know a single police officer who makes thirty thousand dollars a year. I know. I

1:01:41 Thomas: That? I think they referenced the starting salary in Baton Rouge or something was that. I mean, maybe it has to do with the union where you are. I don't know. I'm not sure.

1:01:50 Elizabeth: Maybe. I mean, we have a terrible union, so I mean, I can tell you that there are other departments that pay a lot more than Chicago, but I feel that we are fairly compensated. And I'm not, I'm not a soundboard for, you know, the police union. I'm not saying that because I think the city of Chicago is a good place. I know it's terribly corrupt. I mean, city hall is awful. But I can only speak to my experience. I think Chicago starts at like, I want to say like 56,000, which, you know, isn't, you're not going to be living in the Gold Coast or anything like that. But you, you can, that's a decent living. And then in two years, I think you get like a $20,000 a year raise. So, I mean, it goes up relatively substantially. So I, I don't think that that's it. And I think that there is something to be said of, if you know that you're going to be making $30,000 a year, I, mean, I dunno, that's tough. That's really tough. I wasn't aware that, that anyone made

1:02:08 Thomas: It seems

1:02:54 Elizabeth: That little. I think

1:02:56 Thomas: Shockingly low. I wouldn't be surprised if it was like a cherry-picked number of of some specific, I don't know, position within the police. I don't know, because you're right. I mean, it struck me as shocking, but I don't know if it's just because of specifically that community, you know, that the city has no money or something. I'm not sure.

1:03:15 Elizabeth: It's gotta be cherry picking or maybe for a very, very small town in like the rural South where you're literally able to live much better with much less money. But I don't know a single major metropolitan police department that starts anywhere below 50,000. So just to kind of put it in context. And I mean, I think personal accountability is independent of pay. I really do.

1:03:34 Thomas: Yeah.

1:03:43 Thomas: Well, absolutely, but how are we, I mean what kinds of people are we attracting to the police force? I mean, you sound like the most unique. I don't know what percentage of officers get into it, you know, out of really, Altruistic reasons. Reasons.

1:04:01 Elizabeth: Yeah, no, I think a lot of them do. But, but I think that they are misguided, a lot of them. So like my experience has been they don't go into it with like necessarily bad intentions, but they have bad mental constructs. So, and I don't know how to put this in a way that everyone can understand, but a lot of people who think that Alex Jones is correct are on the police department. Like, that is just true, and that is shocking that there is that little kind of brain power going into this whole thing that there are, it really is, it's 100%, incredible. But that has been my experience that it is, it is not shocking at all for me to meet other officers, be like, oh, hey, did you listen to the Alex Jones show? And be like, what, like, are you serious right now? Because I, I really thought maybe there was only like a few people who did that in this country.

1:04:25 Thomas: Wow.

1:04:37 Thomas: That's incredible.

1:04:58 Thomas: Yeah.

1:04:58 Elizabeth: But I have been pleasantly unsurprised, or unpleasantly surprised, excuse me, to learn that that's kind of, that they, they think he's right. Interestingly enough, on, on the last, um, episode of Cognitive Dissonance, I don't know if you've listened to Alex Jones version, um, but they played something from Alex Jones where he's like, oh, the military gets it, they're, they're clued in, the cops, they get it, they're clued in. And I think it was, um, Cecil, who said something like, oh, you know, I don't know what he's talking about, like, something along the lines of, they can't really, they, I don't know what he's saying that he thinks are clued on, but they can't support him, he's wrong, he is 100% wrong. They do, like, literally large number, like what Alex Jones was saying about the police officers, quote-unquote, getting it, according to Alex Jones standards, Alex Jones is right about that. He has a lot of support within that community, and that should scare everyone, like literally man.

1:05:13 Thomas: Yeah, that, well, yeah, that's really scary. Why on earth is that though? Like, I mean, I was taking one stab at it that we don't offer enough money, so we're not attracting the, or is it just the kind of work attracts certain people? Like Like, what what do you think it is?

1:06:17 Elizabeth: That's really hard to say. I don't know. I have, like, some, based on my history with psychology, I have a few ideas. I mean, I don't think that the, the idea that they are people who have been bullied or whatever, and then they, they get some power, and so they're going to use it, I don't think that that's necessarily far off.

1:06:34 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

1:06:35 Elizabeth: I really don't, I mean, honestly, I think that there are, I, I've personally seen it, like, 100, I've worked with someone that I can tell got on this job because he was bullied his entire life, and he finally got into a position where he could bully back, and he does. And, you know, obviously that's one example, I can't say that about everyone 100, the same way I wouldn't want anyone to paint me with some of the things that I'm saying.

1:07:03 Elizabeth: So I want to be really clear about that. But I don't think that's necessarily far off, honestly. I know that that's terrible, but it's true.

1:06:36 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I, and, and obviously no one answer is going to be the ticket, but it's just, it's, I don't know, I don't know what we do. I really don't. I mean, what does your average citizen do? I guess we would have to try to encourage policies that would make it so that the higher-ups, like you were saying a long time ago, go, you know, like, that change can come from on high when it comes to the police side of it. And then, in terms of the other side of that, I have no idea. I don't know. What can your average person do? I guess just not escalate a situation.

1:07:49 Elizabeth: Your average person can bring respect to a situation, can be nice, can try to empathize of what it would be like to think that you're not going to go home that day, and how you would act in, in that situation, and try to do anything you could to not make that person feel threatened. And I know that that sounds like victim living, I'm 100 on, like, get it, I, I really do. But if I'm telling you as my friend, what can you do to make this better? You can be, um, cognizant of what you post on social media. You, if you put an article on Facebook or Twitter, whatever, supporting Black Black Lives Matter, you can counter that with an article maybe about the police officers that lost their lives. You can just kind of have an attitude of rationality and fairness in your assessment, and try to just empathize and be nice.

1:07:54 Thomas: Sure.

1:08:49 Elizabeth: I really think that that's the only answer for both people, and to achieve both parties' ends, is to say, look, can I empathize with what it would, would be like to feel disenfranchised and not have resources and still be expected to meet these goals that society sets out? How would that feel to be placed behind that eight ball? So that's what officers can do. They can say, what would I do? Can I understand how that would be really hard, and how I'd be really mad that that had to happen? Yeah, I can totally see that. And can I understand of what it would be like to be scared that you're going to be shot, or someone you know is going to be killed that day, and say yeah, and I never want anyone to feel like that, so I'm 100% going to try to be nice and, and say kind things, or, you know, be supportive, and, you know, comply with directions and things like that. And I think the other thing is, um, people, I, I really like, um, Real real Time with Bill Maher. I know you've talked about it on your show.

1:09:21 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah,

1:09:53 Elizabeth: It's one of the only reasons I subscribe to HBO. He was, he was on, I don't know if it was Colbert or Jimmy Fallon, something this week. And he was kind of talking about like, uh, you know, cops knew what they signed up for when they signed off. So if they get killed, it's kind of on that, you Know, he said something, and I'm not trying to misquote him or misrepresent him, but he said some something along those lines. Like, well, they signed Up for it and victims of police brutality didn't. And I don't think that that's true or accurate. And I don't Think that that helping anyone to say things like that. I think that's being more divisive. I Think you can, you can both say that, yes, there is a problem with police brutality that we need to address from a top down level with empathy and understanding.

1:09:53 Thomas: Well,

1:10:38 Elizabeth: And yes, everyone should be supportive of police officers and not say, well, they knew what they signed up for. I mean, I hope no one feels that way about me. Like, you knew what you signed up for, so guess what, if your kids don't have a mom anymore, it's what you get. Like, I just think that that's a really terrible thing to promote, and someone with such a large platform to kind of say that, like, uh, you knew what you were getting when you signed up is really well

1:11:05 Thomas: Yeah. And the other implication of that is then, OK, well then no one will do it. Like, why would anyone sign sign up for that. You know, I mean, people have to do it.

1:11:12 Elizabeth: Exactly not only that, but hopefully you want to attract people. I would hope that want to do it for good reasons and so saying like, well, then don't do it. Well, well, then, what if I say fine, you know, then, then what are you left with? Who are you going to get after that? You're going to give people you really don't want.

1:11:21 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:11:31 Thomas: I know.

1:11:32 Elizabeth: I

1:11:32 Thomas: Yeah. That's been my biggest fear in all this is like, who the hell would want to be a police officer in this current climate? You know? Like, who would go into it right now? Unless you're a saint, you know, who really wants to kind of change the culture or do your best to have good interactions.

1:11:53 Thomas: You You know, given the idea that you're going to be filmed doing something and scrutinized at any time and and the idea that people are, you know, rightfully so, are mad at the police in some cases, you know, like who would want to go into that mess and try to do that job? I can't imagine.

1:12:10 Elizabeth: Can't either. And I mean, it's all changed so quick and I'm sure, you Know, I mean I told you I got on the job in 2007 and yes, a lot of people had phones in 2007 cameras, but I don't think it was as pervasive. I don't.

1:12:14 Thomas: Mm hmm.

1:12:24 Thomas: Oh, no, no. I mean, that's the year of the iPhone. So like and I don't even think that iPhone at first had all those capabilities. So, yeah, it was much different.

1:12:27 Elizabeth: Right. Yeah. So it was much different. I, I, it is hard hard for me to imagine people doing it. I don't know who would willfully say, yeah, that's what I'm going to do. Except if they have like a family background and like that's kind of legacy, but that, that creates further problems. Cause that's not a good motivation because you want to do the same work as your dad did. That's a really wrong thing.

1:12:40 Thomas: Yeah, right. Right. Well, and those people will probably be the first to always side with cops no matter what, you know, like close rank and do that kind of thing. If you're that invested.

1:13:03 Elizabeth: 100%. 100%. So you have to think about what your message is attracting. Like, is your message attracting the people well, that you're claiming you want to do the job. And if your message is one of I'm not supporting it, you're not going to get the people you want. If you say, yeah, you know what, you do matter. I do appreciate what you're doing. I do think you should get some perks with that shitty, dangerous job. I think we should try to defend you when we can look objectively and say you did right. I think that that would be great and you're going to get a better result. I really do think that support on both sides is the only way to make this better. Whereas kind of demonizing one person or one group and saying, well, you knew what you were doing or whatever. Yes, we want to make sure we catch your worst day so we can put it on Facebook.

1:13:04 Thomas: Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah,

1:13:58 Elizabeth: We want to catch that. We just can't wait for that to happen. That's a terrible way to think of things. And I do think that, sadly, I'm certainly not saying that police don't bring a lot of this on themselves, but I do think there is a counterculture of what can I do to provoke you to catch you on film? I do think there are people who do that, honestly. I mean, I've seen personally some clips from Chicago protests of people getting into cops' face and yelling at them deliberately. And the cops are just standing there, like, literally saying nothing with their camera phones on them, trying to get them to react.

1:13:58 Thomas: Yeah.

1:14:36 Elizabeth: Well, it really doesn't. And so I think that that has to stop, too.

1:14:37 Thomas: That doesn't help anybody. Yeah yeah.

1:14:43 Elizabeth: And this kind of trial by the press on both, like – again, both parties, trial in the press probably needs to stop too.

1:14:51 Thomas: Well good luck with that. I don't see that stopping anytime soon, but I encourage and I encouraged in my episode a few times ago, you You know, I just don't, as a skeptic, it's a really tough time to be in because everyone demands 100% from you. You know? They all, one side demands 100%, the cop was right. And the other side demands a hundred percent, the cop is wrong. And it's, it just hard, you know, and I just wish more people will, were able to just like you started off with just wait and see, you know, go with the evidence or, and that kind of thing and wait and see what the trial brings and that. That. I don't know. It's very difficult. But is there anything else that you wanted to say that you weren't able to get to as we try to wrap this up?

1:14:51 Elizabeth: Um, My proudest moment on the job, and you're going to be like, oh, talk about instigating or provoking people, was giving parking tickets to Westboro Baptist Church. I'm not kidding about that. That was literally the highlight

1:15:47 Thomas: You started, see, because I hate parking tickets. So I was really like, my reaction was like, oh, great. And then you said Westboro Baptist Church. So it's like, okay, it evens out.

1:15:48 Elizabeth: Yeah, it was like I hate parking tickets more than anyone else on earth, but they were, um, protesting this high school, and this high school, just the only thing this high school did was they had an LGBT student group. That was it. And, um, the, the Westboro Baptist Church drove from whatever hole in the ground they live in all the way to Chicago to protest this high school's basketball game. So the LGBT group didn't even have anything to do with it, and they were protesting this basketball game. So I was sent to protect, like, Westboro Baptist Church, and I'm like, oh, this sucks. And they, they were parked like within a crosswalk, like within 10 feet of a cross walk or something, and some other, I don't know, really minor PMP infraction, but it was Westboro Baptist Church. So that was it. That was my high.

1:16:44 Thomas: Abusive power, abusive power.

1:16:45 Elizabeth: It was, it was 100% abuse of power. I'm probably going to like get in big trouble in this air. It was a long time. I'm just making that up. Yeah, no, I didn't really.

1:16:50 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they can't, we can't prove anything, don't worry, yeah, wow, oh, thanks for coming on,

1:16:56 Elizabeth: No, they really can't. So yeah, that's, that's about it though. So but thank you so much for having this conversation, because I think it's going to change. Like, honestly, is to to talk about it and just be open minded to both sides and just try to bring, you know, whatever you put out in the world, just have it be balanced and fair.

1:17:17 Thomas: Yeah, that's what I'm trying to do here, I don't know, you know, it's, it feels like an insurmountable task, but we can, all we can do is try, so thanks for coming on, I really appreciate it, it's really interesting to get your perspective from, you know, on, being on that side of things, did I tell you? Very interesting to hear about that. I still, seriously, I'm having flashbacks to when I had to work in construction and just the difficulty in being in a crowd of people who, and it's not just like you spend a little time with them, it's like you have to work, you know, eight, ten hours, whatever it is, a day with these people and you have have to get along and you have to be able to, you know, like be pleasant and all that.

And it really makes you want to hide your true beliefs if your true believes go against the entire, you know, pretty much majority of the group. And, it's tough. It's really tough. So that's very, it makes me wonder how change might happen in an institution like that. And it really takes like a Serpa code.

1:17:33 Elizabeth: Cool. Well, thanks again.

1:18:33 Thomas: We need Al Pacino to come in and, you know, tell everyone to shape up or whatever. It's just, it makes sense that it would be so difficult to go against that culture, so I understand it. Okay, well, on to brighter topics, possibly. Thursday, excellent, excellent interview with a historian who's going to tell us about a bunch of historical stories that may not be as accurate as you thought they were, and it's particularly misconceptions that atheists have perpetuated. So, that's the kind of thing I love on this show because I think every group of people ought to be able to keep itself in check, especially atheists who are supposed to be skeptical and reasonable and all that. So I think it's very, it's highly important that we keep each other in check as regards any sort of misconceptions or illogic or motivated reasoning or anything like that.

1:19:28 Thomas: I think it's most important for us to do that. So I'm really excited. It was great. I learned a ton. So with that being said, I can't tell you how happy I am to have you as a listener. If you want a little extra content, you can always go to patreon.com/atheist to get early content, bonus content, all that stuff. Thank you to everyone who has, and I will see you on Thursday.