AS228: Should We Label GMOs?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:30 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 228 and I am your host Thomas Smith, in for a bit of a unique treat here on Atheistically Speaking. We've got what may be called a friendly sibling debate on GMOs and labeling. Melonnie, why don't you introduce yourself and our other guest?

0:00:51 Melonnie Or Derek: My name is Melonnie Hicks, I'm a, a director of a, non-profit museum, and, this is my brother, Derek Hicks, and, he is a, he's a scientist, and I'm an, a, liberal arts major, so. Yeah.

0:01:08 Thomas: So, somewhat stereotypical in in what you might think. The scientist being perhaps anti-GMO labeling and the liberal arts major being pro-GMO. But yeah, so this was interesting because to to set it up a little bit, I had done a recent episode where I talked about the anti-science. Typically, we think of Republicans as being more anti-science, or at least a lot of Democrats and liberals will slam Republicans for being anti-science because of being, you know, denying climate change and stuff like that. But I was reading an article, and I presented it a little bit on the show, talking about liberals and the ways that they can be anti-Science. And one big one that I think struck a chord of disagreement, because I wouldn't say it's 50-50, but But there's a significant percentage of listeners like you, Melonnie, who are wary of GMO technology. And they certainly, you and others, made it known on the comments and all that.

0:01:23 Melonnie Or Derek: Sure.

0:02:11 Thomas: And I thought it was fascinating. I thought was a perfect maybe discussion to have for the show. My favorite thing to talk about is areas where, you know, we disagree as atheists or as skeptics. So I thought that was really fascinating. I'm looking at it. It looks like there's right now there's three states that have GMO labeling laws, and there's certainly more. It's Connecticut, Maine, I think Vermont just passed one. And one thing that disappointed me, I'll come clean and say I'm a Bernie supporter, but one thing that disappointed me was how anti-GMO he is and pro-labeling he is. So I'll make my, I won't try to hide my opinions. I think I'm anti-GMO labeling, but I also, you know, I I think of myself as someone who could be convinced either way if I get good evidence. And then I also wanted to just play this little clip just to set it up. A two-minute clip here I found on the Center for Food Safety. It seems to be an initiative for GMO labeling.

0:02:24 Melonnie Or Derek: Mm-hmm.

0:03:11 Clip: Unsuspecting consumers by the tens of millions are being allowed to purchase and consume unlabeled, genetically engineered, or GMO, foods, despite the fact that the Food and Drug Administration undertakes no testing of its own, instead relying on confidential industry data to assure safety. Internal FDA documents discovered in litigation actually indicate the foods could pose serious risks but those views have been overruled. Genetically engineered foods are required to be labeled in the 15 European Union nations, Russia, Japan, China, and many other countries around the world. An ABC News poll found that 93% of Americans want mandatory labeling of genetically engineered foods.

0:04:03 Clip: Yet the United States is one of the only countries in the world that doesn't require labeling of GE food. In September 2011, the Center for Food Safety filed a legal petition with the FDA demanding that the agency require labeling of genetically engineered food. Now the Center is spearheading a drive with more than 400 other organizations and businesses with the goal of getting 1 million public comments to the FDA in support of its petition. In the United States, we pride ourselves on having choices and making informed decisions. Under current FDA regulations, we don't have that choice when it comes to GMO ingredients and the foods we purchase and feed our families.

0:04:49 Clip: Please support the Center for Food Safety and its efforts to pressure the FDA to require labeling of all GMO foods. Dudes.

0:04:58 Thomas: So there you go. I'm sad there wasn't any dramatic music in the background or anything, thing. But I think it's a pretty decent summary. So, Melonnie, would I be right to assume that something like what you think? Why don't you go ahead and get into your position a little bit?

0:05:02 Melonnie Or Derek: Sure.

0:05:14 Melonnie Or Derek: Well, my position is, I just think, that people should have the awareness and the right to know what's in their food to make that choice. I don't think it's necessarily anti-science because there could be other reasons that you don't want to purchase GMO food, for example, and I, I wish I could remember the exact year, it was just a couple of years ago, two or three years ago, where Monsanto was suing small farmers because their corn had somehow cross-pollinated with the small farmer's corn. Do you know what I'm talking about, Derek? Yeah, a little bit. And so if I choose, if I see this food is GMO and I don't want to support Monsanto for whatever kind of moral or ethical conflict that I may be having with supporting a company that's attacking like a small farmer, then I should have the right to know, hey, this is from that person and not buy it.

0:06:10 Melonnie Or Derek: Whether it's science-based or not, I just think that people should have the right to know. And from my point of view, and again, I'm not a scientist, but the science that's been done on GMOs, so they've looked at cows for over 20 years. To me, that's not the same as definitely seeing what the results are going to be in humans. I mean, there's a Tylenol study that was released in the '70s that the FDA still hasn't done anything with. And people think, oh, Tylenols safe, give it to your kids, that's the number one thing that you can, or acetaminophen, I shouldn't say Tylenol, acetaminophen. And it's one of the most dangerous things out there. It takes like one too many Tylenols for you to have liver failure, where you can have like 22 mini ibuprofen or, you know, 22 mini aspirin. And so I just, I just I'm just not trusting it at this point. I

0:07:05 Thomas: All right. What do you think, Derek?

0:07:06 Melonnie Or Derek: I'm with you, you know, but common theme here seems to be informed and the right to know, you know, and things like that. And, you Know, things like Tylenol, acetaminophen, I don't think any doctors will tell you that overconsumption of that is good for you. And I think all of them will come with a product labeling that says, you know, this can cause stomach bleeding. There's lots of other side effects if you take Tylenol every day. Any NSAID shouldn't be taken every day, but no, let me get to my point. When with you on labeling, we should have a right to know. But when the labeling no GMO is the only education consumers have, that's like whistleblowing something that is bad about this product. You know, the gluten-free trend, the no GMO trend, I get it. And you can get the same good product from organic farming.

0:07:54 Melonnie Or Derek: You can. It takes a lot more time and a lot of resources, but you can get a good product. What GMO was designed for in the first place was to mass produce to feed people in mass numbers, you know, and and I'm with you, it should be labeled, that we should all have the right to know. But if our only education is a whistle blow, you know, because I think a lot of people are misinformed about what g mo is in the first place, because there's been absolutely not one study that says it's bad for you, and that anything, any chemicals, anything that comes from a GMO product is bad for you. And I think, haven't all the studies just been observation of cattle? Yeah, well, yeah, lots of times cattle and other animals in over 20 years, and this is the way we test tons and tons of medicines, you know, that that we put on the market, and, uh, and you know, food is no different.

0:08:45 Melonnie Or Derek: FDA has to pass it, you know, USDA has the passage, I mean, it goes through regulations and things to to ensure that we're buying a safe product. Now saying something is no GMO, you know, and requiring putting a federal regulation on all companies to label their product GMOs, it's just calling attention to the wrong thing. People should be informed, they should be informed about the differences, but they shouldn't, that shouldn't be the only education they have. You see what well

0:09:12 Thomas: So, let me just clarify. So then, are you not anti-GMO labeling? I can't really tell from what you're saying.

0:09:18 Melonnie Or Derek: I am. The way I, I agree that people shouldn't, should know where their food comes from. If you know, it would be the equivalent of us putting on some meat product, no vegan, or, you know, this is not vegan, it's not a vegan product, like we're saying there's something wrong with being a vegan

0:09:35 Thomas: I would hope vegans would be able to to figure that out.

0:09:37 Melonnie Or Derek: No, yeah, you know, but I'm just saying that's the equivalentof it, we're sayinyou know, this is not vegan, you know, like, like saying no GMO, like this is a bad thing, it's not a bad thing

0:09:45 Thomas: Well, but okay, in one of my problems that I have with this is that I don't, it doesn't really make sense to say anything's not genetically modified. All, everything we eat is genetically modified, I mean, if we went back, what, 20,000 years or whatever, or more, none of the food, we wouldn't even recognize the food. Probably a little more than that, but you know, there's the constant examples. Bananas, you wouldn't recognize. They were inedible. I mean, everything, everything we have modified and somehow I think where I think where people accuse people being anti-science is by saying, look, just because we're now we're modifying it in a more exact way and we're picking apart the genome or whatever, we're splicing genes. Now that we're doing it in more precise way, all of a sudden people are freaking out about it when in reality there's nothing weirder than the way we create bananas. I'm pretty sure that it's all bananas, you know, yellow normal bananas that you see every day are like clones,

0:09:49 Melonnie Or Derek: Exactly no more yeah yeah yes

0:10:47 Thomas: Like they're made from trimmings, right?

0:10:49 Melonnie Or Derek: Okay So this is where I disagree, and this is kind of where I thought that you were wrong, Thomas, about it is because I'm full-on with genetic splicing, I'm full-on with cross pollination, like that's cool with me, except, okay, with one drawback from that is I am worried about about how it will interact with wild species near wherever this crop is being raised. But my problem lies in the introduction of viruses. And that's where I had the problem. And that is the GMO maybe that I am talking about. Okay, so I think what both of y'all were getting into a little bit is gene therapy. And that may be the problem with these, think the thing they're looking at is, uh, they're thinking of some laboratory experiment, you know, where they're making this mutated plant that has all these weird things wrong with it. No, you're correct, we've been doing gene selection for thousands of years, I would even say probably, probably close to 100,000 years we've been doing gene selection.

0:10:58 Thomas: Okay,

0:11:51 Melonnie Or Derek: And the difference is now we can take genes from another organism and put them into the plant gene and they can express that gene. Y'all are talking about gene therapy, but I think what Mel's talking about is gene therapy through viruses, where we inject a plant or, you know, whatever desired organism we want, we inject the virus into it that holds a new gene for the plant to express. Well, in the laboratory we strip all of the other genes from the virus that make it replicate, that make it do anything it's normally done. We take those genes out, we put in our desired genes, whether it's to be resistant to pests, whether it is to make it have a longer shelf life, there's tons and tons of things we do with these viruses, it's not just to grow a pest resistant plant, that's not the only thing we go after, but sure

0:12:42 Thomas: Yeah, let me know if I have this right, but I'm Pretty sure it recently, based on what I've read and some people I know who do this kind of work, viruses have become like this really cool delivery system for everything. Like, I think, yeah, I think it's even in, what was it, in the brain, I know I had talked to a guest, I don't know if I think on this show or maybe it was another show, I can't remember, but they were using viruses to try to deliver certain chemicals to the brain in a different way. There's all kinds of stuff. So I think maybe the word virus sounds a little more scary than it should be.

0:12:53 Melonnie Or Derek: Sure sure that's the way we make insulin, you know yeah sure sure yeah exactly exactly I think it's a stigma that's attached to it, people think genetically modified and they're thinking of Frankenstein, you know, uh, I just, I think it's misconception, and and that, and that's where I'm against labeling, is I don't want the only education consumers to have is to be these trends of, you know, whistleblowing or whatever hype it is, you know.

I think a lot of people don't realize that gluten is really not that bad for you, unless you have celiac disease, or, you know, you're particularly sensitive to gluten, it's not bad for you. Now it's loaded with carbs, if you're, well, the excuse me, the plants that also contain gluten or tend to be loaded with carbohydrates, if you try to lose weight, yeah, you probably should stay away from products that have gluten in them, but gluten's gotten this bad name, this stigma attached to it, and and it's totally false, and it, it's, it's been going on with GMO, it just didn't move as fast as the gluten trend, and I just don't want the only education to be some label that says no GMO, you know Texas

0:14:15 Thomas: Well, okay, well, let me just ask it bluntly then. A measure like those in Connecticut and Maine come across to California, which I think actually either is or probably will happen soon. But anyway, for whatever state you live in, say the motion comes across, the bill comes across. Where are you going to vote, Derek? If the bill is, we must label all GMO foods with this product contains GMO technology, whatever it is.

0:14:31 Melonnie Or Derek: Okay Okay, if I was forced to vote, you know, and, and, okay.

0:14:48 Thomas: You wouldn't vote otherwise, but I

0:14:49 Melonnie Or Derek: Okay. No, I would like to, but based on this one issue, you know, because like you said, you weren't going to hide the fact that you're a Bernie supporter and I'm with that, but he's pro-labeling and, you know, it's

0:15:00 Thomas: Just mean on the bill, like the, the measure comes across.

0:15:05 Melonnie Or Derek: Okay. Oh, okay. Okay. On the bill, I Would definitely go against it just The way it is right now. So, My question is back to the viruses. Is so, how do we know that any of any viruses mutate? And I understand, like, viruses are good for delivery in the way that they can get into into cells, you know, in a way that other things can't. But um, how do you know when we're taking, like, you know, what was that virus not too long ago, I'm sure you might know more about it, Derek, uh, they were taking some, some virus from the toad and putting it in a plant, and it was, I can't remember what it was for. It was for some sort of, to build up some sort of resistance, but how do we know that that virus won't mutate in some way once it's consumed over periods, over generations, like evolutionarily, you know, human-wise?

0:15:08 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. Okay,

0:15:59 Melonnie Or Derek: Sure, and that's where a lot of the problem is. You know, people are uneducated about the process of gene therapy. So how do they do it? Okay, in the laboratory, not to get too technical, but they will strip, no, well, I can't get just extremely technical about these processes, But I know that the virus is stripped of its own DNA, okay, the virus goes into this plant. Like, for example, for corn, so what do they do for corn? Okay, bt corn, okay, so what happens is you use this vector, right, whatever organism we're using, the bacteria virus, whatever, what we do is we strip it of its replica, its ability to replicate, we strip all of its DNA, all it goes in there with is, it's okay, in the virus's case, a virus has a unique outer protein layer, okay, and it has a unique shape, it can only bind to a certain kind of cell because of its unique shape, okay, the container of the virus itself attaches itself to our desired cell, injects its DNA and

0:16:14 Thomas: Feel free. Sure.

0:17:11 Melonnie Or Derek: Then the virus falls off, the virus, the protein falls off, the protein is no longer a protein, it's dissolved, the cell now has the DNA that the virus shot into it. Well, in the laboratory, before that, we take out all the viral DNA, all we put in there's the DNA that we desire, okay, the DNA we want the plant to exhibit. How did they know that, they get all, I mean, like, if it's one, and this is going to be silly a little bit. But you know.

0:17:36 Thomas: No, it's okay. I like this because it's, it really is like us lay people trying to understand the science, which I think will be useful for people. So go ahead.

0:17:41 Melonnie Or Derek: Trying to understand um So you know how they say that there's a way, uh, it was just like in the last year or so where they were using HIV to kill cancer, right, and they ended the HIV virus to kill cancer, and, um, I'm sure they're stripping it of all of the things, okay, they're stripping of all the things that make it, but I mean, what if they leave one AIDS in there, I mean, there's a little more, there's...

There's more certain measures than that in the laboratory, uh, what you're talking about is impossible in the laboratory setting, um, yeah, that, that's not possible, and I get where you're going with that, you know, some little mistake was made that, you know, everything could snowball, no, I get it, but what you're talking about, you know, that's impossible, the physiological part of that is impossible, that will not happen, this virus will only be injected into this plant with our desired DNA, and in the outer coat of the virus is what does all the work for us, that's why we have to use a particular virus, we have to go to a toad to find the right protein coat that will work in this plant, we have to, you know, these have to be viruses that work in both species, you

0:18:55 Melonnie Or Derek: Get me, okay, and and the the reason they were, uh, doing that with cancer, or with HIV treating cancer with HV, is because, you know, the HIV virus attaches itself to our leukocytes, you know, and, uh, it was a good virus to use to get as a vector to get the DNA we wanted into those leukocites, those white blood cells, where, where they were wanting to fight leukemia with with new DNA, okay, now all of these things are are being tested still, you know, uh, have to test all of these things to see if they work first, you know, and uh, no.

0:19:29 Thomas: Yeah. Well, Derek, let me ask you about that. Do you know much about that process, because one of the claims of that video we listened to was, oh, the FDA doesn't even test any of this. It's just, you know, they're relying on smoke-filled Monsanto rooms to, which I think is something that bothers me. Look, I'm not like a, you know, Monsento fan or anything, but I do think that's something that gets overblown in this kind of, I don't know what to say, this kind of community, the community of anti-GMO people. People. If you just want to look up, by the way, people who are at home, go ahead and Google Monsanto and Snopes, and you'll see that most of the crap people talk about Monsanto's is not true. Not that it's a great corporation.

0:19:44 Melonnie Or Derek: Not true.

0:20:10 Melonnie Or Derek: At all and uh and I'd like to throw another good reference out there, uh, Kevin Folta, he's a, he's uh, spokesman, I was gonna say lobbyist would be the wrong word, he's a, he was a spokesman for Monsanto and uh, lots of good knowledge, he was the scientist first, and, uh, you know, when you go to any scientist, they they go by science, okay, and and scientists have no problem with being wrong, they they want to figure out where they're wrong, and Kevin Folta is a a scientist and he he can give you the real real technical details of all these processes and and he can shed a lot more light on this than I could, but, uh,

0:20:14 Thomas: Oh, sure.

0:20:46 Thomas: Well, to play devil's advocate, I mean, I want to get back to my question, but I mean it's not like it's impossible for scientists to be corrupt. I mean certainly people would point to the tobacco industry in what, the '50s or '60s or something when they're, or throughout, you know, that time period when they are convincing scientists to testify that, you know, no harm will come of smoking and all that kind of stuff. So, I can see the skepticism that people might have, but what about that testing process? I mean, let's say somebody, you, know, comes up with a new technique or a new gene they want to put in a crop. What happens then? I mean, do they, what process do they go through?

0:21:15 Melonnie Or Derek: Yeah.

0:21:30 Melonnie Or Derek: Sure, well, well, talking about putting any gene you want to into a crop, it's a little harder than that, I mean, we could probably put any gene we wanted into a human.

0:21:40 Thomas: Well, let's just say it's a, it's some new, I don't know. It's some, it'S some new development that they have. Some, somehow, I mean obviously it goes through testing in the lab first, right?

0:21:47 Melonnie Or Derek: Oh, yeah, they're going to, yes, they are going to test that several times. And, I mean, the type of testing to pass this sort of gene therapy and stuff has already been done. We know that gene therapy is safe. We know this is safe, you know.

And now if they have a new problem in these fields, say our corn crops, they have a new problem, a new pest that's causing major problems, well, they'll go study that new animal and they'll figure out, you know, what it is about that plant that makes, makes that pest want it, uh, what deters that pest, you know, lots of people think we're putting in genes that secrete some sort of pesticide that kills a bug, and that's, that's bad, sign, that's bad education for liberal people that are sitting there thinking, well, am I eating a pesticide, that's not it, they studied this animal over and over and over and found a chemical that might deter it, you know, that isn't secreted into this plant's fruit, into this plant's seed, into whatever part, whatever fiber we're eating.

So you're saying that, like, whatever the deterrent is is in the plant itself, not the fruit? Exactly, it's in the plant itself, sure, and these these scientists don't want to put out a product that has pesticides and that has anything harmful to you in it. And these things are all tested. You can test GM crops right next to organic crops, and the chemicals are going to be the same. I mean, they're going to do the same, the chemical makeup. I mean, as far as,

0:23:24 Melonnie Or Derek: Whatever chemicals make it, whatever undesired chemicals are in that plant, the only difference between them will be, one's expressing genes, the other isn't, okay, and it's expressing genes, it's not, and it does not contain chemicals that are a deterrent to the to the pest, it's expressing jeans that that in turn make a deter to the past, you see what I'm getting at, we're not filling these plants with bad things.

Well, and on the one hand, like, I can see for a a mass population, uh, like to feed a lot of people and we've got too many people because people just have too many kids, but we got too few people, and so I know to feed all these people, like, I would rather see something that's a pest deterrent that's natural, like that, like, you know, genetically natural than to see overuse of pesticides, which to me, I mean, would contribute to climate change and global, and just, you know, toxic, a toxic environment, so I would rather see it that way, but I still think people should have the right to know.

Sure, sure, they should have the right-to-know, but, uh, I think if all they know is GMO's bad, that's a bad education, because GMO is not bad, but sure, everybody should know where their food comes from, but the way they want labeling right now, I don't, I don't think that's good idea, because, you know, to, if the trend just starts snowballing and people, if 90% of Americans are against GMO products, we're going to set ourselves back 40 or 50

0:24:56 Melonnie Or Derek: Years in agriculture if we don't do GMO. You know, I mean, we don't want that.

0:25:02 Thomas: So You're worried about it creating, like, uh, messing with the market a bunch. So if, let's say we label GMO, because that's, that's an interesting argument, because it, it would go against the will of the people, and it would be something where it's almost like scientists or the government is kind of protecting us from ourselves in kind of a weird way. I mean, I don't know what the stats are, but if something like, I keep seeing different ones, so I'm not sure what's actually accurate. But let's say 60% of people want GMO labeling and would avoid GMO products. Are you worried, Derek, that... So your worry is that that's going to drive down demand for those products once we label them, and then that will mess with the market and set us back in agriculture?

0:25:49 Melonnie Or Derek: Yes, yes. Well, what I worry is food will be more expensive. I mean, simply because the time and resources put into producing that food will go up. Yeah, it will. And we have enough people starving, you know, to to make this argument against GMO when it is this thing we need so bad, you know, that helps us sustain our country. I mean, people are starving around the world, you know, and we're trying to set ourselves back 40 or 50 years to, you know, I mean, I think these products need to be endorsed by us because we are the leading example in the world. And if we're full of whistleblowers down talking a product that isn't harmful at all just because they're uneducated, we don't want the rest of the world to follow us.

I mean, if the choice is, to me, if the choices, people starve or the stuff doesn't get labeled, I'm going to choose the stuff that doesn't get labeled and let's speak people. I mean, realistically. And one thing I do have a problem with, most people I know, let me just say not even just people that are anti-GMO, is that most people eat sugar, at least, I mean, I eat sugar too, at least I know it's so terrible. And when it first came out, scientists said, "Hey, this is a toxin, you probably shouldn't be taking it into your body." People didn't care, and they still do. And a lot of people that were like, "We need GMO labeling," like, they still eat, eat sugar, sure, sure.

0:26:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:27:22 Thomas: I don't know if sugar is a toxin, per se, but yeah.

0:27:24 Melonnie Or Derek: It's not a toxin but, uh, you're right, we're not supposed to eat refined sugar like we do, but uh, I mean, there's... there's lots of things we shouldn't over consume, and I think that's why gluten got such a bad name, is because, you know, over consumption of anything's going to be bad for you, and, uh, gluten just happens to be in all the products that make us fat, you, you know, and, and I don't, yeah,

0:27:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my favorite is when they take advantage. You see it all the time now in the supermarket. Things that obviously don't have gluten in them jumping on that bandwagon. Like, oh yeah, look at me. It's like water, bottled water. Gluten free, baby. All right.

0:28:01 Melonnie Or Derek: Yes, exactly, exactly. Exactly, and that's what you don't want, is that labeling to be, you know. To have a stigma attached to it, you know, I, I don't think, and I think, you know, people like Kevin Folta and Monsanto, they get bad names because people are misunderstood, you know, you're talking about uh cross-pollination and that sort of thing, and then I hear a lot of people talk about Monsanto wanting to dominate the market and how they're so evil because they want to make sure that everybody has to buy seeds from them, and they just don't understand how gene therapy works and how, how this selective breeding works, the seed that that these plants make is not a viable seed, it's in the process we're, well, what, what we're not guaranteed is that that seed's going to make the same plant or father was.

0:28:54 Melonnie Or Derek: Do you understand? So would you say that those claims like a couple of years ago with the small farmers were like, you know, they were getting sued and weren't being able to grow their crops or whatever, would you says that's a Snopes thing? Yes, exactly, because, because...

0:29:08 Thomas: Yeah, I looked it up and they have, if you look up their lawsuit, the Snopes says they sued in like 20 years, 100 to 150 farmers, which is like actually a really small amount for a giant corporation. And they said that the 11 that went to trial all were won by Monsanto, meaning, you know, they had legitimate claims. I think the misunderstanding has been it's actually stuff like breach of contract, and the farmers are actually not maybe doing innocent things, like, like, like.

0:29:20 Melonnie Or Derek: Right. Exactly.

0:29:40 Thomas: I think it was presented as this big evil corporation. And people, feel free to research it yourselves. This is what I found based on Snopes, which is a source that I tend to trust, that, you know, it's been made out to be something it wasn't.

0:29:43 Melonnie Or Derek: You know...

0:29:54 Melonnie Or Derek: Exactly, exactly, and uh, you know, they, they kind of got a bad name because they were trying to protect their product, uh, you know... and everybody wants to protect their, exactly.

0:30:00 Thomas: Yeah, And people hate corporations I mean, we're we live in a time when people hate corporations, but it's funny that people don't talk about, it's fine the ones people focus on, I understand food is very important, obviously it's very important thing to us, but you know, people don't really get that pissed off at Apple when, you know, everything Apple does is like, it's everything is their product and it all has to be just their thing, and they can't, you know, no one else can, you know, I don't know, it's kind of the same thing, but people just don't really focus on as much, and they make probably just as much or more money.

0:30:02 Melonnie Or Derek: Yeah, Exactly. Oh, Yeah, well, when it kind of, it, when I was thinking about this, I thought, I don't know, and I don't know, Derek's right, I think education is the um solution, I just don't know how to properly educate everyone, and myself included, on GMOs, and like you were saying, Apple, the coltan that is used in all of our smartphones, and the way that we get the col tan, and people can feel free to look it up, but it's by pygmies that are actually being kept slaves, so yeah, it's a real thing, pygcies are mining the col tan that runs everyone's smartphones, or little things like KFC and Taco Bell, they, they wouldn't give, and I boycotted them, which I don't really eat there anyway, but I boycott it on because they wouldn't give their farmer or their pickers, their tomato pickers, a penny a tomato raise, and just to give these people a living wage.

0:31:20 Melonnie Or Derek: And so, but, I feel like people that, that are really anti, because I'm not necessarily anti-GMO, I just really don't understand the science completely behind, like, the virus integration, the, the virus introduction, and I need to feel more comfortable with that before I say no completely, but I feel like people haven't even done that amount of research, but are still buying these other products that are like so you know well

0:31:46 Thomas: Yeah, we need more people to speak out, more people who are maybe knowledgeable like Derek and others to speak about it maybe, or maybe they are and we just aren't hearing them. But yeah,

0:31:55 Melonnie Or Derek: Sure and I think everybody wants to be educated, they all desire the education, you know, and I just don't want them to be miseducated, the only, only education for them to get is that labeling that, you know, implies it's something bad, you know, we can't be lazy if we really want to know what we're eating, you know.

0:32:15 Thomas: This is something that I found interesting in doing a little research on it. More scientists, the scientific consensus, and this is according to to a Huffington Post article, who I don't, I wouldn't think would be like pro-GMO necessarily, but they said that in the scientific community, there's more consensus that GMOs are safe than that climate change is caused by humans, which I thought was interesting. Both is an extremely high consensus, but it's actually more certain that GMO stuff is safe. And that, that's what is interesting. I think that's What brought up the issue originally.

Look, if, if Melonnie and others, others, if you're of the opinion that we should label, I understand, I respect your right to have that opinion for sure, but I want people to recognize that you are going against scientific consensus. That's all. As long as people who are pro-GMO labeling and are kind of anti-GNO in general, as long as they realize they're doing the same thing that Republicans are doing when they're anti-climate change, they're going against the overwhelming scientific consensus. And if if you're okay with that, and you're okay with, you know, maybe realizing it's slightly hypocritical if you bash Republicans for what they're doing, then that's okay. That's

0:32:39 Melonnie Or Derek: Exactly. Yeah. Sure.

0:33:31 Thomas: All I wanted to say.

0:33:31 Melonnie Or Derek: And And I'm not here to judge them for being hypocrites. They, they can, uh, you know, make their own choices, as long as nobody's hurting anybody, that's fine, but I think anti-label, or I mean, labeling products anti-GMO, uh, is harmful Yeah.

0:33:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:45 Thomas: Well, you think it will hurt people. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

0:33:47 Melonnie Or Derek: I think it's harmful, so, not a neglect, if you say it that way, and that it's hard, because, because, I, I disagree, uh, with Thomas, a little, that it's, it's the same thing as climate change, and I think that was maybe even our initial um discussion was because to me, Republican party or the politicians making policy that increases climate change like, like, catastrophically, I mean, like, you know, the fracking and polluting, I felt that affects every single person, and that type of being anti-science is detrimental and harmful, whereas labeling so people are aware and can make their own choices, I initially said was not, but hearing Derek say that that can really, like, hinder our ability to feed people globally, or really will set us back, then I have to concede y'all might be right, that was really hard, it's like, fun, I'm sorry.

0:34:00 Thomas: Yeah.

0:34:41 Thomas: Well,

0:34:47 Melonnie Or Derek: Well, and and you're not wrong for being skeptical, I mean, it does, it does sound like a crazy science experiment, but you know, it's really a controlled thing, and uh, I just think more people need to embrace it rather than, you know, whistle blow it, I just think it would set us back too far, you know, and we don't want this to happen, we don'y want to set ourselves back, and much less the rest of the world back, because we do feed a lot of the world.

0:35:15 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, and sorry, Melonnie, I didn't mean to kind of go two-on-one against you here and invite, I appreciate I appreciate you being a good sport and walking into a bit of an ambush, but I also really respect where you're coming from and your ability to at least consider the other side. And it sounds like you're considering it pretty strongly. So that's really commendable. And who knows? And I'll say, I found some of this a little convincing. When I listen to a video and it tells me no one's testing this stuff, that's convincing. I mean, I think I ought to do more research into it, but still, I can see why people would be skeptical, especially with past failings of scientists and the government and all that. That. But one

0:35:23 Melonnie Or Derek: I can hold my own, I'm alright.

0:35:38 Melonnie Or Derek: Absolutely.

0:36:03 Thomas: Other thing.

0:36:03 Melonnie Or Derek: I think that's the thing, is it's up to people to individually research it too, you can't just watch a two minute video on Facebook, and don't, you know, uh, I don't know if we're absolutely 100% right about this, I just, I know that GMO is helping us, uh, produce more food, and and it's safe, you know, I think there's other agricultural issues that need to be looked at, um, you know, there's tons of other things out there.

0:36:09 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:36:29 Melonnie Or Derek: There's no till farming, uh, you know, just saving space in general, you know, free range cattle, that's, that's all good and fine, but I worked on a ranch for a long time, and I know how much land it takes to support one cow, you know, and and that's a ton of land, I came from a ranch that was 27 sections, and for every section we could have four cows for a lot of time, yeah, and and that's when times were good. You need to tell them probably what a section is.

0:36:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:03 Melonnie Or Derek: A square mile, a square mile.

0:37:03 Thomas: Square mile. Really?

0:37:05 Melonnie Or Derek: Yes, sure, 640 acres, I believe. That's why when I was in middle school, I thought we should switch to iguanas. You don't have to cut anything down. The meat is, they produce more meat per square mile and aren't as bad on the environment.

0:37:06 Thomas: Wow.

0:37:21 Thomas: Yeah, it does seem true that cows are really bad for the environment and really inefficient.

0:37:27 Melonnie Or Derek: It doesn't.

0:37:27 Thomas: Yeah well,

0:37:28 Melonnie Or Derek: A lot Of people don't think it's that bad, but a lot of these farmers and cattle ranchers, they need the government help. They do, just to make a living, and that's what the government allows them to have. The land may be able to support a little bit more, but these are all things that have been tested over and over. Our federal government is trying to look out for us the best they can by putting these regulations on how many cows we can have per acre and things like that. But don't always know best. Sure,

0:38:06 Thomas: What do you think about, this is a separate topic, But I'm just curious if you have an opinion on it. Sometimes I hear about all these subsidies and I wonder like, what, maybe if we just stop some of these and then, you know, like for the cows, for example, subsidizing any of that and then prices would go way up and then you can make your decision from that, you know. But the price would be based on reality, though. I mean, if we, if the price of a hamburger hat, which I love, you knows, I love hamburgers, I can't help it. If it skyrocketed because it reflected kind of the horrible cost of the environment and the inefficiencies and all that, and it was 30 bucks a hamburger, maybe I'd have one a year or something, but I'd certainly cut down and then it would be more realistic, you know?

0:38:19 Melonnie Or Derek: Sure. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And, you commend, you know, Mel and people that, have their point of view where they're skeptical and, you know, just because they're a little uneducated and not their fault, you know, but, you know, I commend that. They need to be skeptical. Everyone does. But, you know, you're right. These subsidies that are given to farmers, to cattle ranchers, to, I mean, I killed trees for a long time. We did brush control and there's tons of money put out there to kill these trees. I mean, tons of Money just to save our grass, you know, and that's, that's a huge cost to our government. Um, and no, and it's all for the cows. It's all to have grass for these cows. So we can have these free range animals and, and I commend them for being worried about the cows, you know they want them to have a normal life. You know, even the slaughterhouses now are being and revamped, uh, you know, I commend the gentle spirit, they're concerned, but you know we are animals and we have to take care of ourselves first.

And I'm not saying let's uh eat all the cows and do away with cows, but to to mass produce something isn't isn't a bad thing, you know, a lot of people are down talk chicken farms because the way they're raised, and and I I get it. It is kind of bad conditions, but I mean, these cows live pretty hard on these ranches anyways. They do. And while Derek's saying that about chickens, he actually has his own chickens and his own eggs. So

0:39:36 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:40:25 Melonnie Or Derek: Yes, I don't know,

0:40:26 Thomas: And are you genetically modifying them maybe in your basement? Just doing a little, Yeah. So,

0:40:31 Melonnie Or Derek: But, You and you know I've had to kill the chicken before, I've had to kill animals, I got hunts every now and then, I got whitetail hunts, you know, and a lot of these things these liberals are saying about these slaughterhouses and these farms, or that that these animals are so stressed out that these chemicals have to be bombarding their body and in turn we eat those chemicals because they're in the meat when we kill it.

Okay, well I've hunted animals for a living and you're not going to tell me that that cow's any under any more stress than a deer is with an arrow sticking out of his side and running for half a mile before he drops. That animal's stressed and we eat that meat and we don't think anything about it. A lot of liberals are into the wild game movement right now and only eating game meat, the primal diet, and and I I like all of that, but it's really no different than the mass production of food, it really isn't different.

But in the concern about the antibiotics that are used in the animals when they're in these mass produce, yeah, and uh, you would have to really convince me that these organic farms and these free free range cattle are raised with no bacteria, I mean with no antibacterial shots and no immunizations, and you know all the shots we had to give our cows as soon as we got them to our ranch, everybody does that, and their cows lived on a nice ranch, what is it like six thousand acres or seven?

Sure, the plot we were on was 10 sections but we ran about uh 27 to 34 at a time, so I mean big land, big big country, and uh these

0:42:12 Melonnie Or Derek: Were free range cattle and they they all take medicine, they have to, and time.

0:42:17 Thomas: Yeah, I mean, that is something that I've been sympathetic to. First off, just to jump in here, you know, I definitely don't like the factory farming aspects of our food system and all that. And I don't, a lot of it's horrifying to me, but I guess it hasn't been horrifying enough for me to become a vegetarian yet. It, but, but yeah, but so are you saying, so you don't think any of the antibiotics that we're giving our cattle really have an effect on us?

0:42:17 Melonnie Or Derek: Okay. Okay. It is. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And Uh, Uh, no, I don't, I don't. And I would, and, you know, possibly, but I would have to see a lot of hard facts about, you know, any of those having side effects that are detrimental to our health. So,

0:43:00 Thomas: How can you account for that? I mean, it seems intuitive to, you know, idiots like me that we pump, we pump these cows full of stuff and then we eat it. But how do you just, just explain, can you explain the science of that at all? Right.

0:43:13 Melonnie Or Derek: You know, lots of these things are filtered biologically. We're, we're, we're acting like, uh, you know. We shoot these antibiotics into our bodies and they remain in the meat that we consume, you know, and that's just not how it works, you You know, these things happen on the cellular level, the physiological processes. These things are controlled in the liver, you know, or by the liver. They happen in the blood. You're not putting deposits of antibiotics into these cows' meat. That's not the way it works. And factory farming, I'm with you. It is. It's bad when you look at it.

But, you know, anyone that wants to talk about factory farming and the harsh conditions, I would like to take them hunting one time and just see how tough it is. It's tough to kill an animal your first time. It really is. To take an animal's life, it's hard. You feel gloomy. You do. But when you eat the meat, there's a different feeling. There's a feeling of resolution, a feeling of fulfillment. You know, you earn that food. And I think that's the same kind of human nature that makes it okay for you to see that factory farm and then go eat that piece of chicken on your plate, you know, vegetarians

0:43:17 Thomas: Yeah, right. Yeah. Makes sense. Hmm.

0:44:31 Thomas: Well, I think that's a good argument against people who are pro, who are meat eaters, but I guess it wouldn't be a good agreement against vegetarians and vegans, but so They got You still, but other than That all

0:44:38 Melonnie Or Derek: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. They got me. Still but, and and that's a good choice, you know, there's a very, very few animals on this planet that only one thing, for the most part, almost every animal on this planet's an omnivore. You know, there have been times where people had to live off of just vegetables because there just wasn't meat around, you know, and there's been times where people had to live off just meat because things were so cold, you know what I mean? And, you know, we evolved to be able to eat all kinds of different meat, and you should be free to make your own choice about what kind of nutrition you, you know, put into your body, but to say GMO products or, you know, factory farmed animals are a bad thing, I think that's more of an ethical issue than a biological issue. No,

0:45:31 Thomas: Right, well, Melonnie, any final thoughts on this whole thing? What's

0:45:34 Melonnie Or Derek: I think, I think, well, I think he's, there, I had a lot of thoughts while he was talking. That I, I thought one of the things about free range cattle, just for instance, is that that cattle contribute to climate change so badly, I just think everyone should go to either chickens or iguanas and get rid of cattle, but I'm in Texas, so I'm stuck.

0:45:54 Thomas: This iguana nonsense, is that, I thought you were joking, it's been a while since I I had an iguana steak or an iguana burger.

0:45:57 Melonnie Or Derek: Per square mile, no, per square mile, it's more meat I've Not, I've

0:46:04 Thomas: I don't, yeah. Well, okay, you need to at least eat an iguana before you start advocating it.

0:46:05 Melonnie Or Derek: Never had iguana, Derek and I were in Honduras. Iguanas. I've

0:46:13 Thomas: I, oh, oh man, good luck with that one. I would probably become a vegan before I would eat, you know, tons of iguana meat.

0:46:13 Melonnie Or Derek: Had a rattlesnake, I figured it's the same thing. It's same thing. Well, I'm my point is that they're, they're not as bad for the environment as cattle. Per square mile, they actually produce more meat, uh, to be consumed, and if the problem is feeding people, uh, efficiently and, um, and less cruelly, then we should maybe look at that, that kind of an option versus

0:46:26 Thomas: Sure, yeah, you don't have to. You know, that's a good argument. It's a great argument. It's good, it's a cerebral argument and yet seems like the least appetizing thing I've ever heard. But that's a good, hey, you know, that's calling out, this whole episode has been about sticking to the facts and the science, and so I guess you're right about that.

0:46:51 Melonnie Or Derek: Sure. Yeah. I really enjoyed this conversation. I really learned a lot, I think, from Derek, and I hope that your listeners did too. I'm not, I still am, on I still really think we should get to know what's in our products and in the foods that we're buying, but, but I would be more willing now to maybe vote down a bill that says everything has to be labeled.

0:47:28 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah, well, thanks so much for coming on, guys. I really appreciate it. And I don't think this is, you Know, I definitely want to revisit this. Maybe we'll, maybe people will send me some more reading material or something, and we can see if, you Now, what we want to do. But I, yeah, it's a fascinating thing. It's something that I think is really contentious. I think there's a lot of people like you, Melonnie, who reacted to this and thought, hey, wait a minute, you know, this isn't anti-science. This is skeptical to distrust scientists and all that. So it's certainly something that speaks to a lot of people, and I'll be curious to see what the reaction is. But I really appreciate you guys talking it out, and I hope everyone learned as much as I did.

0:47:59 Melonnie Or Derek: Nate, thanks for having me. And I appreciate skepticism. That's how we get to the bottom of things. So good job, Mel. Good, thanks. And hopefully now Derek will start listening since he's been on the show. Sure, sure, I will.

0:48:22 Thomas: Hey, that's up to him, yeah.

0:48:24 Melonnie Or Derek: I will thank you, Thomas. And, yeah, sure. I'll be a listener from now on. Thanks.

0:48:24 Thomas: Yeah. Thanks, Derek. Thanks Melonnie.

0:48:30 Melonnie Or Derek: All right, thank you. All right. We'll see you.

0:48:47 Thomas: Alright, well, there you have it. Interesting discussion. Thanks a lot to Derek and Melonnie for that, and for reaching out to me. Uh, I look forward to hearing from you guys on this one. Let me know if you think anyone misspoke or misrepresented the science or anything. I'm glad to hear different arguments and read any links you have for me. I also think the factory farming stuff was Is more of a philosophy question a moral philosophy question than a scientific one because it's more about the morals of you know is is it right for us to prepare food in this way and how much animal suffering is tolerable versus you the suffering we save by feeding more people, all that kind of stuff. That's more philosophy, except the question of antibiotics and stuff like that.

0:49:32 Thomas: I'm glad Derek answered that because that is something I hear all the time. Well, they're pumping them full of antibiotics, and then we just eat them. And it's like, yeah, well, we forgot about the whole liver. So that's part. There's that. Unless we're eating the liver, maybe that's a part of it. But yeah, I look forward to hearing from you guys on this one. Let me know your comments. Elements. atheisticallyspeaking.com and track down the episode and comment there. You can go to facebook.com/atheisticallyspeaking, any number of places, and get a discussion going. Thanks for listening to another great week of shows, and I will see you guys next week.