AS220: Eiynah Returns

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 220, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Today, I've got a special guest, Eiynah, for you. And I just want to remind everybody, or let everybody know, that this interview took place before the Harris-Demasi interview, so there's a reason that we don't talk about that, and that we, I think I mention it in the future tense, so that's the explanation behind that. And also thank you for your iTunes reviews. Keep them coming. They keep growing slowly but surely and I'm talking about the iTunes reviews that are in the US charts. That's the ones I can keep an eye on. A reminder, when I get to 500, I'll give you a bonus episode. So keep doing those. Go to iTunes.

0:01:17 Thomas: Give me a review. Thank you so much to everyone who already has. All right, let's get to to the show.

0:01:32 Thomas: Joining me right now is Eiynah, back for, I think, just a second time, right? Or has it been three? Either way, nice to talk to you again, Eiynah.

0:01:40 Eiynah: Nice to be here, thanks for having me.

0:01:43 Thomas: Um, let's see, just pre- I actually, I've grown a bit since last you were here, maybe just briefly, in case anyone's not familiar with you. A very, very, VERY brief Reader's Digest version of your story, before we get going. What do you think? Did

0:01:57 Eiynah: Sure, yeah, I'm an ex-Muslim blogger and illustrator. I am Pakistani, and people like to send me nice, lovely, kind emails from all sides. Lots of, supportive tweets and stuff. No. I

0:02:15 Thomas: You live in Saudi Arabia, or am I okay,

0:02:18 Eiynah: Did, yes, I did live in Saudi, I grew up there, but I'm not Saudi.

0:02:19 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Right, right, okay, that's what I thought. Right. Yeah, but that's still, uh, tells people, you know, a bit about your your upbringing and experience, I'm sure. Yeah. So.

0:02:24 Eiynah: Oh, absolutely. I think it's been a great influencer in the way that I think about religion.

0:02:36 Thomas: There you have it. I mean, you've written a book. Are you anything in the works? Another book, anything like that?

0:02:42 Eiynah: Working on some stuff, but people

0:02:44 Thomas: All right, just Wanted to make sure I didn't short shortchange you on mentioning whatever your latest project is, which

0:02:50 Eiynah: Can definitely Check out my previous book called My Cha-Cha is Gay. Just Google it. It's about a boy and his uncle in Pakistan. It is an anti-homophobia book. That, oh,

0:03:02 Thomas: I'm sure was received perfectly and no one complained.

0:03:05 Eiynah: Yes, No one complained at all. I

0:03:08 Thomas: So that's a bit about Eiynah. And you're back today. We had a great long conversation people can check out some months back. I'm not, I don't remember exactly when, but people can Check that out in the feed if they want. But today, I wanted to talk to you about anti-Muslim bigotry and kind of the line between being an Islamophobe, which I personally, I've said before, well, it sucks because it gets misused, but I do actually think it exists. I mean, it is, yeah, I mean it's a problem in atheism a little bit. I think that, well that is, I mean that is what that's supposed to mean, right?

0:03:32 Eiynah: Hate That word. Islamophobia. Like what? I think The Problem is anti-Muslim bigotry. Yeah. But it doesn't imply that at all. It, it, in fact, makes the situation worse by conflating the idea that the beliefs and the people are interchangeable.

0:04:03 Thomas: Okay, fair enough, fair Fair enough. So, you think that word is not appropriate? Like, we shouldn't be using that word. We should be using...

0:04:07 Eiynah: No, It's Unhelpful.

0:04:10 Thomas: Okay. I don't know. I may... You don't think there's any... Or at least there was value to it before... I think what happened is people just started using it all the time whenever anyone would criticize Islam. But...

0:04:23 Eiynah: Then you can though, because it implies a phobia of Islam, and I mean, why wouldn't you? It's a terrible, vile, misogynistic, homophobic, violent ideology. Fair enough to be phobic of it, I think.

0:04:35 Thomas: Well, there you go. So we'll use the phrase anti-Muslim bigotry then. And it's something that there's, the nature of being an ex-Muslim, I've learned from you, Eiynah, is that it's all sides are against you. Like, you're not, there's not like an easy, I mean, maybe there's an ex-Muslim side to a certain extent, but that's kind of a small voice.

0:04:50 Eiynah: Very Small, constantly.

0:04:58 Thomas: Yeah. And you get, you know, you get abuse from Muslims, you Get abuse from atheists, you give, it's everybody. And so similarly, like most of the conversations we could have, it's not like, oh, here's our side versus Tommy Robinson, or here's our side versus Sam Harris. It's not that. It seems to me, and you can explain if I have this wrong, but it seems like you'll say, I'm worried about this and this sentiment in something you have said. For example, Sam Harris or whoever, whatever guest he might have had on, I am worried about such and such. Then right away, you get it from all sides again because you get people thinking like, oh, you're being regressive left, and then you get people saying, or you get people who are way on the other side of that saying Sam Harris is a complete, you know, anti-Muslim.

0:05:05 Eiynah: Oh, Yeah, They Call him a white supremacist. And it's It's Ridiculous.

0:05:50 Thomas: Yeah, and it's so, it's, I just want to let everybody know, like, that's what we're dealing with. We're dealing with kind of shades of, you Know, sides here that you're with or sides here that You're with, or little bits on one side you're against or another. So it's not always always clear. There's not a clear, like, team going on here. I just wanted to try to explain that. I don't know if I helped at all.

0:06:13 Eiynah: Yeah, and I think that's – those teams and those tribal feelings are the problem is that everyone wants to be on some team, and then you go into this blind group think where you do what's expected of your team, and you can't be really a free thinker. You know, you see that a lot with theists, obviously. So they're not going to critically question a verse of the Quran that's right in front of them that is saying wife beating is okay. They're going to shift goalposts and go into mistranslation excuses and misinterpretation excuses, context, blah, blah, blah. And then you see that with plenty of atheists, and I'm an atheist myself, before people think I'm an atheist hater.

0:06:58 Thomas: But you're a closet Islamist, right? No, I'm just kidding.

0:07:01 Eiynah: Obviously, of course I am. How can anybody trust me? I've got the Muslim DNA in me, right?

0:07:07 Thomas: Yeah, there you go.

0:07:10 Eiynah: But where an atheist like a clear problematic sentiment or line where they say something like, like, well, why would you want more Muslims in your country if Islamic terrorism is increasing? And I'm like, well – I'm a Muslim – I mean, I'm an immigrant of Muslim background. So you're shutting out people like me if you want to just isolate and close off your borders to specifically Muslims. But then they'll go into, oh, that doesn't mean that. Look at it in the context. I'm looking – no, the entire article is in the context of being anti-immigration. So you see the same thing like the goal post shifting, the oh it's misinterpreted, blah blah blah, and it's just frustrating to me on both sides because I don't feel a tribal connection either way. I'm kind of like, I'm not part of a team, I'm just, what I think is right and call out what I think is wrong.

0:07:49 Thomas: Yeah. That's the crux of, yeah yeah.

0:08:12 Thomas: Yeah, and it really, you're in a unique position because, you know, like we've alluded to a few few times. It's such a precarious place to be an ex-Muslim because you get so much more just automatic. It is amazing to me how much hate mail you get, and then I will have you on my show and I don't get any hate mail. It all at you, you know? It is unfair. Sorry for that. Feel free, send me some hate mail, guys. If you are going to send Eiynah something, just change the nouns and and just, you know, just sent it toward me, and just for fun, just as a change-up. But, so I want to talk about, you now, Tommy Robinson. There was a thing that happened recently where, he was on Rubin. Was that what started this? Yeah, okay.

0:08:12 Eiynah: Yeah he was on Ruben

0:09:02 Thomas: And then I saw, I guess, he had done some documentary thingy with, with what's his name? I'm blanking. Yes. Mo Ansar. Yes, yeah. I was blanking on his name. Uh and that, I watched that whole thing and that was pretty fascinating. I mean, it was, it pretty well done. Uh it was a nice story because it, it tried to take an arc of like here's Tommy Robinson starting off as part kind of of a racist group, and then, is

0:09:02 Eiynah: Oh with Mo Ansar yeah that was a different time too, that was a time when he had left the EDL and he was saying that he wanted to make a change, he wanted it to be different, he was working with Quilliam, and I truly felt no I don't think he is in fact, he's He's thrown them under the bus a few times.

0:09:43 Thomas: He not anymore? Do you know? Okay. Okay. But it was, it was fascinating. It was a fascinating arc. So people can watch that if they want a little background on him.

0:09:55 Eiynah: And I totally had hope for him. I reached out to him like in a friendly way. And I just hope that maybe speaking to someone who agrees with him that Islam is, you know, has a lot of issues, but then doesn't agree with him in the way that he generalizes all the adherence, because they don't necessarily all believe the same thing, just like Christians or whoever, that's where the problem lies. I was hoping that maybe he would just see that if someone is friendly and doesn't corner him, because what I saw in his previous interviews was that anytime he'd go on and he'd say anything about Islam, people would be like, no, no, you racist, you bigot. And I completely get that he has some very valid points to make. There was a lot of of relativism in England and to like really frustrating degrees of denial. His generalizations, you know, are are not helping, so that's what I'd hope to yeah

0:10:50 Thomas: Right. And an example, maybe just to, just to try to be fair about it, where it seemed like he, you knows, he was on the right side of things or on on the, on the correct side of, of things is he was challenging Mo Ansar. Gosh, If things were how Mo wanted it, what would be the punishment for such and such? Like, would you, would it be stoning? Would it, you know, whatever. And Mo, he, yeah, he can't even even answer that. Like, he can't even say, like, Moe pretends to be this really magnanimous kind of, you know, yeah.

0:11:09 Eiynah: And Mo can't give a clear answer yeah liberal must know

0:11:18 Thomas: And then you ask him like, well, should we stone someone to death? Which seems like a pretty straightforward question to me. Doesn't seem too hard. There's not a lot of curve in that one, you knows. Should we ever stone someone? I don't know. I don't know. To death? Hmm. Think briefly and then say, no, we shouldn't. But he can' do that. And so, So that that was that was a time when it's like, well, Tommy was challenging him appropriately on his views and stuff. But what are the what do you think are the more problematic stances that Tommy

0:11:19 Eiynah: And he can't say no, yeah well No, so he's changed since then, though. That's the problem.

0:11:54 Thomas: So what did he say on on Ruben that you had a problem with? Or was it was

0:11:55 Eiynah: It's what he did not say. I mean, so what has changed about Tommy since the migration crisis is that he's made his views on immigration, migration really evident, which he wasn't necessarily speaking about around the time that he left EDL. And even in my chat with Godless Spellchecker and him, I told him that as an immigrant, I can't blanketly condemn all immigrants. Like that's a really ridiculous stance to take, I think. And he didn't say anything, so we never had that discussion. Now he's just been tweeting anti-migrant, anti-immigrant hate, like end all immigration from Muslim countries. I'll personally send back every male Muslim migrant that's come to Europe in the last 12 months.

0:12:51 Eiynah: Like, these are not okay things to think. And then his attacks on Maryam Namazi are just not – Do.

0:12:59 Thomas: OK, yeah, that that was what really because I don't have the background that you have, those attacks was what what really set me off is to like, well, this guy's what,

0:13:08 Eiynah: You have to have the background that I have as an immigrant to see that blanketly condemning all immigrants from Muslim countries is a bad idea?

0:13:15 Thomas: What I mean to say is I wasn't even familiar with those tweets that he had. Like I hadn't, I hadn'T followed him. So I only came into the conversation and saw what he was tweeting at Miriam and was like, wow, this is not okay. Like the things that are kind of going on in his head. And then I saw your tweets later of what he had already tweeted. Let me ask, I'll get into that later, but just if we were to try to take on immigration. I mean, the situation in Europe is obviously way different than anything going on here.

0:13:18 Eiynah: Yeah. Yeah.

0:13:44 Eiynah: And here's my thing. If we're to talk about immigration, if we go in black and white, like closed borders, or I don't even agree with completely open borders, like that, you know, is not my position at all that people should just be free to move around however they want without the proper checks and vets. And so how are we going to have conversations about vetting and checking and who we don't let in and why we don't let them in and stuff like that when you're already just saying that no one can come? So there's an important conversation to be had, but it's not going to get had because everyone's going to be too busy telling you that that's wrong, like blanket condemnation.

0:14:28 Thomas: I just want to try to outline it to help anyone listening who either hasn't formed an opinion or maybe has been sympathetic to, you know, Douglas Murray or or Tommy's stance, and maybe see if we can bridge that gap. You at least maybe understand the fear, just to try to find some commonality, that you had that mass sexual assault in Germany? I'm sure that's something that people like Tommy ran with. I don't know for sure, but I'm sure that fueled some far-right bigotry and stuff.

0:14:56 Eiynah: Course. Right. But you know that there were people that were Syrian immigrants, I believe, that also protected women in that mass sexual assault, that cordoned off a section and saved them. These are things that aren't talked about. In Charlie Hebdo, the cop that died protecting them, he was also Muslim. I mean, diverse people. You can't just blanketly say we're not going to let any Muslims in. Because absolutely.

0:15:14 Thomas: Yeah, I hadn't heard that for sure. Oh, yeah.

0:15:27 Thomas: But what do you do then? I mean, is there, you alluded to it, but is it just a question of, okay, make sure we try to check better or like what, what is, or is, is this the status quo is what's happening now, which is taking on a large number of refugees. I mean Germany is taking On just an incredible number of Refugees and I understand, I understand the worry that like, hey, these, you know, hundreds of thousands of people were taking on are, forget Islam, just look at their, maybe their views toward women, you know? Is it,

0:16:05 Eiynah: I mean, and that's what I'm talking about. I understand all those concerns. And that's why are those conversations come in? Like, is it feasible to take in this large a number? How will they integrate? How Will we help them integrate? Are there even jobs for them? Once we let them in? Like, these are things that need to be discussed and properly, I don't know, have ideas formulated around them. Like, how can you overtax certain, pushing in as many, cramming in as Many people as you can. It's not fair to any of the people in this situation, because even if you let them in and they can't find a way to sustain themselves, I don't know, you know?

0:16:42 Thomas: Okay, so the issue becomes blended in with maybe that valid concern and criticism, you start to get people who are expressing very bigoted anti-Muslim views. Is that the, so for you, it's once you you start saying we got to stop letting Muslims in of any kind, that's when it's over the line versus saying we need to look carefully at what we can feasibly do and how.

0:16:55 Eiynah: Yes.

0:17:12 Eiynah: Absolutely. I mean, that's just common sense, right? We do need to take in feasibility into account, and we do need to see that attitudes towards women will manifest in certain ways. There needs to be programs, and there needs to definitely be no denial, no covering up of sex crimes just because people are migrants. That is the other end of terrible behavior. It doesn't help anyone.

0:17:13 Thomas: Okay. Oh, yeah. So, there's the oversensitivity too. Like, there is the opposite, kind of what I was talking about earlier. I mean, there s the other side of that is police wanting to try to keep it quiet because, Because, you know, they're worried about, yeah, yeah.

0:17:51 Eiynah: One, Yep. That's that's a huge problem. It's

0:17:55 Thomas: Okay, so I think I see the distinction there. I understand it. I think that, I don't know, it's a very fine line. So, well,

0:18:04 Eiynah: Not, though. It's, I mean, I don't understand why it's confusing to blanketly condemn all Muslims versus ask sensible questions. It's not a fine line at all, so,

0:18:16 Thomas: I don't know that what you're saying, like how, what is the practical application of that? Like it's very general and, And Well, what I'm trying to say is I can, I can see that when people look at the situation and they see what's happening and they express, and they have the same concerns that you just expressed, I understand like a very practical thing to say. Is let's put a stop to this, like whatever, you know, whatever's happening, we got to put a stop to it that that no,

0:18:23 Eiynah: Is it is the application. All or nothing.

0:18:47 Eiynah: That's Not how you put a stop to it, though. Do you think sex crimes will be stopped if you stop letting Muslims in? No.

0:18:55 Thomas: No.

0:18:56 Eiynah: Do you, you think jihad will be stopped? I mean, some of the worst jihadis are European. Of

0:19:00 Thomas: Yeah, but I mean, I mean that that's a little unfair. So if by that logic, then there's no problem at all. I mean, yeah.

0:19:06 Eiynah: Course there's a problem, but there's it's It'll

0:19:08 Thomas: So I'm saying it'll stop the problem that you already acknowledged. Like I'm not saying it's going to stop all sex crimes or all, I'm just saying, okay, so now we're back to, it sounds like you're saying there's no problem. Like whatever additional problem that we've agreed on, like whatever additional additional problems, we've agreed that this mass refugee, taking on of refugees, it sounded like you agreed there were concerns with that and there were issues with it.

0:19:15 Eiynah: It'll stop the problem of, what of migrant sex crimes. I'm saying that though but I'm, of

0:19:40 Thomas: So, I'm saying whatever that is, it would be stopped by stopping all refugees. I'm just, that should be non-controversial, right? I mean, or am I missing something? I'm not saying that's the right, no, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that is the solution. I understand when people do that math of like, here's these problems, this will stop that. Let's do this, you know?

0:19:39 Eiynah: Course of God, No, because I don't I don't understand it, though, because imagine what hell will break loose if that actually gets passed, what the borderline crazies that are thinking about going into jihad will do for alienation. But

0:20:18 Thomas: Or, oh, sure. I'm, again, I'm not saying that's the right answer. I was just trying to outline, like, here's why I think people are latching on to that answer is they're, they're doing this math of here's these issues. Here's what's causing it. It's these refugees we're taking in. Let'S stop. Let's, of course.

0:20:34 Eiynah: Isn't that simplistic. Isn't it short-sighted? That's

0:20:36 Thomas: Yeah. I didn't, I didn'T say it it wasn't. I'm merely trying to get into the mindset and say, here's what I think is happening. Here's what I think is the...

0:20:37 Eiynah: All I'm saying, oh, yeah, I can see that math being done, absolutely, but it's almost like childlike in its simplicity, right?

0:20:48 Thomas: Yeah, right. And this is to say nothing of how awful the situation is in Syria and something needs to be done. I mean, it's not... I don't think it's a good solution to completely cut everybody. I think the U.S. should be taking in more refugees for sure. Sure.

0:21:08 Eiynah: Yeah, yeah. I think North America can do better. And I mean, here's an example, like the leader of Pegida, one of them, Pegida the organization, the anti-Islamization organization that Tommy is starting or has started a UK branch. He's

0:21:12 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, so he has a new, he's on to a new one now. All right.

0:21:32 Eiynah: Is not violent or thug-like or accepting of neo-Nazis joining as EDL or the other one. But just because they say they don't accept Nazis or they turn them away, that's a really low bar to say that they're a great bunch of people. I think everyone half-decent would just say they don't accept Nazis, you know? But anyway, so his co-leader, one of them is a guy called Paul Weston who believes in the white genocide theory.

0:21:51 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Hmm.

0:22:11 Eiynah: And that's, well, that white people are being outbred, and that's genocide.

0:22:11 Thomas: I'm, I'm sure this is great. Okay. What, what's the white genocide thing?

0:22:19 Thomas: Oh, well, if I had to pick a genocide, I'd probably pick that. I prefer that to real genocide. Here I thought there was going to be like someone was actually committing genocide on us, but if it's just other people are breeding more, like, that's not really, is that?

0:22:34 Eiynah: Right, but that's like, is that not like the most racist thing you've ever heard?

0:22:41 Thomas: It's definitely hyperbole, to say the least.

0:22:44 Eiynah: It's ridiculous.

0:22:46 Thomas: I've never heard of committing

0:22:46 Eiynah: I can't take someone seriously. You've never heard of this?

0:22:49 Thomas: Genocide just by having kids. Like, that is an interesting concept there.

0:22:54 Eiynah: Yeah, yeah. And they use this tagline, like, diversity is a code word for white genocide.

0:23:01 Thomas: Wow. No, I've heard the term white genocide, and honestly, when something sounds that stupid, like, I don't usually look into it.

0:23:10 Eiynah: Oh, okay. Well, sometimes it's worth it because it's amusing, but it's dangerous thinking, right? And so Paul Weston has a real problem with Muslims breeding.

0:23:12 Thomas: Yeah, no, no. Sure, sure. Hmm.

0:23:20 Eiynah: And he had this whole white genocide video up on YouTube, which he's recently, someone, Someone, I don't know if it's him or someone else, has made private. So you can't access it anymore. I don't know if it's out there in another place. But anyways, so he's the other co-leader of Pegida. And he also believes that Muslims should be banned from public office.

0:23:31 Thomas: Okay.

0:23:42 Thomas: Oh, well, yeah. Really? So, Tommy is associating with someone who thinks Muslims shouldn't be allowed to hold public office. Yeah. See, that's pretty problematic.

0:23:50 Eiynah: Yes. And also white genocide guy. Second, the third person is Anne-Marie Waters. Anne-Marie Waters, um, she thinks Mariam Namazi and I are prepared to let rape happen. Like, are us being not anti-immigrant means that we're fine with European women being raped?

0:24:12 Thomas: Let me just ask you, are you fine with European... Let me ask the tough questions here, are you okay with European women being

0:24:18 Eiynah: I'm a fucking woman. Like, why would I be okay, anyone be, I mean, it's, these are the accusations that they're so ludicrous, I don't even know what to say to them, like, to accuse someone of, I mean, that's like saying, which she never answered, I said, I mean, giving birth to more people means rape will continue to happen, are you okay with that?

0:24:19 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Right.

0:24:42 Eiynah: You know what I mean, like right

0:24:43 Thomas: It's two separate things. I mean, it's, it's, too, it's something that we're always going to be trying to stop sexual assault and rape from happening, that should be something that's constant, and then separate from that, we need to help refugees. You know, it's not really, like, you said, I mean, isn't it, lots of things permit rape, like, having a gathering of people could possibly permit rape. It's not like it's, that's your goal.

0:25:06 Eiynah: It's not like you're okay with

0:25:07 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:25:07 Eiynah: Rape happening, yeah.

0:25:10 Thomas: So, yeah, so Tommy went on the show called The Rubin Report that I have to admit I don't really watch. I watched one of them, and yeah, I mean, here's my problem with, it's so frustrating, because, and again, I bet you can identify, Not that this is nearly as much a problem as you have, because, you know, you have the whole ex-Muslim being possibly punishable by death, so I don't have that. But what I do have is when I call out the quote-unquote regressive left, or when I call out The Other Side, like the Rubin side, then I get called regressive-left when

0:25:11 Eiynah: Oh, no, you're missing so much, yeah. Oh, yeah,

0:25:47 Thomas: Just the other day I was talking about something that is legitimately regressive–left and calling it out. Like, the regressive left phrase is really just, I'm done with it. Like, it's so useless.

0:25:59 Eiynah: It got annoying so quick, just like Islamophobia did, but progressive

0:26:01 Thomas: Really quickly. Really quickly, like, I can't believe how, I've said this already, so I won't repeat it for my listeners, but there is a legitimate use for it, I think. Like, there was a definition that made sense, you know, if someone was so accepting or so so progressive that they shield. Yeah. If they shield, like, right.

0:26:22 Eiynah: Yeah, it's still theologies and Islamists and stuff, absolutely,

0:26:27 Thomas: That made sense. Flash forward a whole five minutes and it's now everybody's regret. Like now me saying, yeah, me, me saying like, I don't really care for the Rubin report. Regressive left. There you go.

0:26:35 Eiynah: But it's not a right-winger, it's a regressive left, yeah. Yeah.

0:26:43 Thomas: Typical regressive left uh, yeah. Cause I, I, so I watched Rubin once or twice and like, Like, it just seemed like he has someone on and agrees with everything they say. And so I was like, well, I can just watch the person. Like, I don't need to watch your show. Like, you can just find what else they've done. Nah, I shouldn't talk trash.

0:26:52 Eiynah: It does kind of seem that doesn't it, yeah, and it's

0:27:01 Thomas: I mean, yeah, it's that same side. I had a real problem.

0:27:01 Eiynah: And it always, though, it's always, um, like, people who are, you know, hating on the regressive life or hating on Islam, it could be anyone, sure, it's It's not always like a lefty or, you know, it's not always right-wing people. Sure, he has diversity from the left and right, all people who want to bash regressive left and Islam. That's pretty much, yeah.

0:27:12 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it definitely is. And that's what frustrated me so much about it. It's like, I understand that. That's fine. But then I had, I think I had a commenter the other day say like, because I said what's not happening, and I haven't done this either. I'm trying and it's hard. I really want to try to get two people on of opposing views and hash it out. It's a hard thing to do.

0:27:44 Thomas: I want to get, I want To get someone who throws around the term regressive left all the time and then someone who, you know, is on the other side of that and see if we can have a debate. I don't know what the hell the terms are. Like, there aren't real, can you help me out there? Are there any good, I don't have any good terms for this. Like, the, you know, there's no, like, there are no legitimate terms. There's like insult terms, like oh, you're SJW and you're, but I don, I still can't find what the actual appropriate terms are. It's actually getting confusing because I keep trying to say things like this and it gets garbled. But anyway, the people on the opposite sides of these issues, and I said that and someone Someone commented like, oh, look, but Ruben is doing that. Look, he had this guy. It's like, no, that's not it. He's saying like, oh, we need to have discussions about this. And then he just has the same side on and that's their discussion. That's talking about it from one point of view. I

0:27:44 Eiynah: It's a very hard thing to do.

0:28:07 Eiynah: Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah?

0:28:41 Eiynah: Yeah.

0:28:41 Thomas: Really, and I'm not saying I've done this any better. I mean, I do try to get people from more varying points of view, but my real goal is I would love to try to Get A Debate going and to actually get people to engage gauge. Because one thing I see happening, Eiynah, and I'm sure you've seen this a lot being in your position, is there's a lot, the two sides do a lot of reacting to the most extreme position on the other side and never interacting with each other. Like, or if they do interact with each other, it'll be a huge letdown. They'll be like, oh, well, yeah, I think that, you know, refugees maybe pose some risks and we should go, okay. And it turns out they actually don't disagree that that much, you know? But one side wants to say, like, well, your side thinks that we should, you know, execute all Muslims, and your side, it's a lot of, like. Just reacting to the most extreme voice on the other side, and it's not helpful.

0:29:07 Eiynah: Yes. Yes. But those voices are the loudest. I think the middle ground voices are not loud enough and they need to be.

0:29:37 Thomas: Yeah. And the middle ground voices are, they are motivated to pick a side, and so they do, and

0:29:48 Eiynah: Yeah. Yeah, and there's that tribalism again. Then they defend it blindly. Go for

0:29:50 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. So, I think I want to talk about what, I mean, at least the problem I saw with Tommy Robinson, because it made me so mad. I just want to talk about it because I got to get it off my chest. So what happened was, and now maybe you could help me out. I don't think I saw the very, very genesis of this. All I saw was Tommy, from following you and keeping up with your tweets, I saw you were having this battle with some people about Tommy.

0:30:27 Eiynah: It. It's another Tuesday.

0:30:29 Thomas: What started the interaction between him and Miriam? Do you know that? Or were you in on that? Yeah, go ahead.

0:30:37 Eiynah: I don't know. I mean, I think they just – she was just – he took a tweet of hers where she was talking about his debate skills, and he put a picture of her nude protest and was Like, great skills, Mariam. And then a whole bunch of assholes jumped in and were like being sexist. So was Tommy, but there was people way worse than him, like, "Oh, look at her, gross," or "You know, she doesn't have a good body so she used a flag to cover her," like, just disgusting people.

0:30:50 Thomas: Okay. Yeah.

0:31:11 Thomas: Yeah, that's where I came in on it too. So I wasn't sure if you knew what started all that. But yeah. And this is the thing that it really frustrated me. And especially because when I chimed in on this and said like, you know, I was just literally pointing out what Tommy was doing and saying, is this really what you are saying? Like just to make sure.

0:31:29 Eiynah: Yeah. It's like, really, can you really just be saying this?

0:31:34 Thomas: Yeah. And I got called a hundred times, regressive love, regressive, like, so here's what, just to lay it out, like just in case anyone's confused on this, Like, it's pretty simple. Tommy. Yeah. At one point, Miriam had tweeted or something and said, like, it was probably a sarcastic remark saying like, well, I can't, you know, your debate skills are too much. I can'T. You know, my intellect is not.

0:31:55 Eiynah: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Debate.

0:31:57 Thomas: Some sarcastic remarks. She was probably flabbergasted at what he has to say. Fair enough. Like, he has a right to reply to that. But his reply was idiotic. Like, it was, he, yeah, he

0:32:07 Eiynah: Her ideas, debate, whatever. You oppose go for it all the way but make

0:32:13 Thomas: Posted a picture of one of her nude protests and said, yeah.

0:32:16 Eiynah: Don't shame her, like her

0:32:19 Thomas: And it, the thing that's fascinating about this, and people can maybe try to find it on Twitter, I don't know, is that you have to be sexist to even understand the logic behind what he's doing. Like, for me, well,

0:32:20 Eiynah: Nudity. Oh, yeah, and then some women were like, "I don't normally appreciate sexism, but it's

0:32:39 Thomas: I didn't even understand, like, I had to read the thing 50 times over of like, what is he saying? Because I think it, in his mind, posting a picture of a nude protest was some sort of comeback. Like, and I still have a hard time knowing what that is, but I think in his mind that's the opposite of intellect.

0:32:57 Eiynah: More like it's not, yeah, it's non-intellectual, you're just using, yeah, however look at the context of what she's, what she is doing with that protest, protest, it's, it's unbelievably brave, and it is until well,

0:33:00 Thomas: Right. Which is sexist. Right? Now, what, what was the context of that protest? Would you mind laying it out?

0:33:16 Eiynah: She had the Iranian flag and she had cut out the word Allah, and, uh, you know, there was a hole right above her crotch. Like, it's a protest, I mean, for so many things, I don't know the exact contents, but just to, uh, show that, you know, women are not allowed to even show their fucking hair under, uh, Islamic theocracies, and here she is standing naked, how

0:33:39 Thomas: Which, which is something you would think Tommy would agree with. I mean, she's protesting how women are treated in Islam, right? That was something, another layer of confusion there.

0:33:43 Eiynah: Exactly yeah It is, but he doesn't like the, uh, anti-, uh, the anti-religion people that are in Mariam's camp, because they're not anti-immigration, they don't generalize. I mean, she's very anti-right wing from what I gather, and I think I'm

0:34:07 Thomas: Right, she even has called Sam Harris out for that, and I think they're going to record soon. They were supposed to already have had a, yeah, yeah, right.

0:34:12 Eiynah: Going to talk about it, but anyways, um, she opposes Islam because, and Islamism, because it's a right-wing movement, and I, I feel the same way, like the reason I left religion and started questioning these things is because of my personal liberal values, uh, it's very right-wang thing, like, when the Western liberals, like, um, side with just, you know, Muslims, or niqabs, or whatever, they're siding with our right wing. With the Muslim right wing. It's like, so bizarre, because there's like this left and Islamic right alliance, because the Western right is often dubious in its intent for opposing Islam, you know, and has some bigoted tendencies.

0:35:03 Thomas: Yeah, it is really weird that our left never anti-woman when it comes to to Americans or Canadians. Like, they're usually very pro-feminism until it comes to shielding Islamism. Yeah, yeah.

0:35:04 Eiynah: Yeah, religion is, yeah. Yeah, Islam, yeah.

0:35:20 Thomas: And they don't let Christians get away with it, at least in America.

0:35:20 Eiynah: Oh, they don't, and that's the most frustrating part. It's such a double standard. It's so hypocritical. So there are people like us that will oppose things because of our liberal values and because of the dehumanization that this right-wing ideology, like Islamism also, and people who are conservative often tend to, conservative within the Muslim community, often tend to generalize Westerners or, you know, non-believers, whatever, you know, even the Quran generalizes them, like, you know, they're all one homogenous block of immoral, sexually loose people, right? That's how so many talk about Westerners, and generalization, that dehumanization of people is what I was opposed to in the first place when I I left religion when I started questioning it.

0:35:26 Thomas: Yeah,

0:36:19 Eiynah: Like, homosexuals, generalized, like, all should be killed. There's no humanity in that. Adulterers, all should be killed. There's not a lot of humanity in it. There's just no thought put into it, you know? Apostates, enemies, all die. So then when you come to the West and then you see similar sentiment, not obviously as 7th century or as extreme and murderous, but bigoted in similar generalizations, you know, Muslims, ban them all, Muslim, they shouldn't hold public office, Muslim, like this, Muslim, all believe that adulterers should be stoned, no they don't, they don t for

0:36:57 Thomas: It is incredibly weird how the divisions line up and how... And again, like, that could be people who defend that. That's a legitimate use of the term regressive left. But it's it's lost all value. And then you get the people latching onto their side. I just have to finish, apologies to you, but I have to finished talking about this, the sexism of Tommy Robinson. Cause I didn't even get done. Like I wasn't even, I was like a third of the way in because, and it's important because this is, it further illustrates how idiotic it is that people are calling me regressive left for this.

I, you know, I think anyway, because well, for just saying, for even suggesting like, hey, what you just did, like you're posting a picture of her doing a nude protest to say she's not intellectual. Like there's no connection there. You actually have to be sexist to even think that makes sense as a response. And then I finally, I found the tweet just to remember. This was horrible. You said, and actually you said it's sexist. I don't think he ever replied to any of my tweets, because, yeah, he's got a ton of followers, there's a lot of people chirping at him, but but he thought

0:37:37 Eiynah: Not being A sexist. Yeah, none, Yeah, Yeah,

0:38:13 Thomas: He, he responded to you, you said it's sexist, and he said, no it's not, don't be ridiculous, she looks awful, like, and he doesn't get it, like he's not joking, he did

0:38:21 Eiynah: Yeah, so reply with more sexism and Then He tweets again with the same picture and he's like, this is funny, haha, like, have a sense of humor, right?

0:38:27 Thomas: Yeah, He thinks because he doesn't like how Mariam looks naked that he's got a good response, like that's a good

0:38:40 Eiynah: And then he keeps going on about the girl in the, on the right, oh, she's hot or whatever, like, That's What

0:38:40 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, Like, it would be okay for her to do it, like it's fine, I

0:38:48 Eiynah: The fuck is the point, man, like, It's so juvenile.

0:38:49 Thomas: Know, like, and Then I literally, I just said, I'm sure you got this too, but I mean you got so many mentions of people harassing you, maybe you didn't notice, but I, I said, like, now I even said again, like, are you, is this really what you mean, like, you mean she's not intellectual because she, she doesn't look how you want her to. And people were like, oh, my God, this guy's just trying to find sexism where there is none. It's just a funny joke. It's like, no, that's not, there's no joke there. Like, yeah,

0:39:19 Eiynah: Yeah, Apologists for Tommy will just be blind no matter what. I mean, there was one tweet where he, where there was a horrible Palestinian media outlet that did promote some anti-semitism or whatever through their publication, and, uh, or Holocaust denial, I can't remember exactly, but he tweeted about them saying, I hope they're bombed. And I'm like, that's worrying, that's a worrying way to think, this is not how you solve things, by, uh, bombing other people, like, and They were like, oh, that's just an apologist for Tommy, like, that that's juste a silly tweet, I mean, come Come on, seriously.

0:39:47 Thomas: And it was disappointing. Well, and again, it's important to say these aren't just like neo-Nazi apologists for Tommy. These were atheists.

0:39:55 Eiynah: No, no.

0:40:02 Thomas: These were like people who I wouldn't necessarily you wouldn't know by looking at them.

0:40:03 Eiynah: Yes. Yes, yes. And that's why it's so worrying to me when that kind of narrative creeps into mainstream atheist criticism. And though I believe that, you know, Rubin must be a very nice guy with his heart in the right place. Absolutely. I don't think he's a bigot or supremacist of any kind, but he's biased. He plays to the crowd, you you know, what his crowd is lapping up these days is the anti-aggressive left, the anti, the Islam bashing, and it doesn't matter who's doing it. And it was irresponsible. Like he was just not either knowledgeable. I mean, come on.

0:40:07 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:21 Thomas: So,

0:40:45 Eiynah: He started

0:40:45 Thomas: He was not challenging it enough. He was not calling him out on his...

0:40:49 Eiynah: Off the interview by saying, Tommy, are you a bigot? And Tommy said, no. So done.

0:40:50 Thomas: Oh, done. Issue solved.

0:40:56 Eiynah: Yeah. I means, but come on, I just told you who who the three leaders of Pegida are, right? What did Dave Rubin say about Pegida? Oh, yeah, Pegida doesn't sound like a hate group at all. You know, the founder of Pegina quit, the founding father of Pegita, the founder in Germany, because pictures of him dressed as Hitler were leaked.

0:40:56 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, that's usually not a good sign.

0:41:17 Eiynah: Usually not, no. These things that Rubin would have known had he looked Tommy up, and might have said

0:41:22 Thomas: Here's the thing. Here's the thing. If he wants to say... If his response was, you know what? I didn't know that. I didn't... you know, sorry. Yep. That wasn't the response.

0:41:34 Eiynah: That. Don't just shield yourself. No, he-

0:41:38 Thomas: Spoiler alert. And that wasn't a response of people defending him. It was, oh, well, it was a good interview. I liked, you know.

0:41:38 Eiynah: Oh, yes. So people gushed about the interview, it was nauseating, just because they love that echo chamber of, "Oh, all the famous atheists are perfect and always right." Like, it's, it's sad, this kind of hero worship. I mean, anyone does it, but Ruben instead mocked the people who were challenging him, fellow secularists, in good faith. And, and I've actually tweeted at Ruben before because he tried to invite this guy called Pat Condell onto his show.

0:41:57 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've heard of him.

0:42:20 Eiynah: Really vile, vile person. He –

0:42:24 Thomas: I think the last time I saw a video of his, it Was years and years ago, and I'm not sure if he had fully, you Know, like sometimes people haven't fully shown their colors, but I wouldn't, it doesn't surprise me to hear that. What do you have any examples of his

0:42:30 Eiynah: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's also – yeah. I'll tell you. One of his things – one of his videos were like, well, third – well, rape will go wherever third world Muslim men will go. And, uh, do any of you, you know, how many of you enjoy a bit of casual rape? And if you're Muslim, I know you do some shit like that.

0:42:58 Eiynah: Like, I'm sorry. I know a fuckload of Muslims and none of them are rapists. So to assume that wherever third world Muslim men will go, rape will go. It's a huge generalization because I can say that wherever men will go, rate will go as well. So,

0:42:39 Thomas: Sure yeah this is true so

0:43:15 Eiynah: And I know, I'm not denying the problematic-ness of attitudes around women and sexuality and all of that. My entire blog is dedicated to the problems within the Muslim community and their attitudes to women and their attitude to sex. But the difference is, I don't lay that charge on every single Muslim male.

0:43:38 Thomas: To bring it back though, do you think that we need like a, uh, some way to screen for attitudes about women if we're trying to, or, or do you think we maybe programs or yeah I don't know how you do it. You know? Yeah.

0:43:40 Eiynah: I don't know how you can effectively –

0:44:03 Thomas: Yeah.

0:44:17 Eiynah: And things like tribunals that they have, these things are unacceptable. It took so long for people to call out FGM, too. These things we need to start shifting public attitudes on. We need to stop shifting public attitude on hijabs and niqabs because they are not this great empowering cloth that you think. And as I've told you in our chat before, that I don't have a problem with hijabs because they don't cover the face, they're just the headscarf, And I've known many lovely hijabis, but let's not lie to ourselves about what the origin of that is. It is not some empowering cloth. It is a tool of subjugation of women. And that's what I'm – there are some things we just can't compromise on. Charlie Hebdo is another example.

0:45:03 Eiynah: So many cowardly publications and TV channels didn't show even after they lost their lives. I mean, blasphemy, that's something that we should protect, without question of not wanting to offend people. You know.

0:45:09 Thomas: Yeah that's a pretty crazy one because it, it, that, and that's scary because now I don't know what the laws are. Actually, maybe I do know a bit more about it. In Canada, I don't... See, I think in America, free speech is more protected than anywhere. I'm pretty sure. I mean, based on talking to people, I wouldn't have thought that because I just figure, you know, things must be wherever I am. That's how things must be. But when I've talked to people from Europe...

0:45:34 Eiynah: Yeah. Yeah.

0:45:44 Eiynah: That doesn't sound like an American at all, right?

0:45:49 Thomas: When I talk to people in Europe, they're... Well, especially when it comes to something like a right like that, where I figure, you're, you know, because I don't go around just assuming that other people don't have the rights I have. I don'T know. I just assume, you KNOW, most, I DON'T know what, maybe first world isn't the right term, but I would figure most democracies probably have a lot of the same protections I do. You know, I have no reason to believe otherwise. Until I started talking to people and they said, like, now you don'T understand, like, we don't allow hate speech. Like, that's not allowed. That's not protected.

0:46:19 Eiynah: And there's, uh, some Canadian politicians that are gunning for that too, like any

0:46:24 Thomas: Right, right. Which is scary. Like, I don't like that.

0:46:27 Eiynah: Offense caused to people of religion is hate speech, like that is just ridiculous. Ridiculous. That's my entire existence. Deserves to belong in jail then. I mean, I'm an offense. A gay person is an offense their existence is offensive to religious people.

0:46:34 Thomas: It's terrifying because, yeah,

0:46:44 Eiynah: How the fuck is that?

0:46:44 Thomas: That's genuinely scary to me because I could see that happening. Like that's not that, it's not that incredible. Maybe not in the U.S., but somewhere where it's not as constitutionally laid out or something. You know, it is pretty core to our beliefs beliefs that free speech is okay here. I mean, people are going to chirp at me for that because a lot of people think the regressive left is taking that away. I still don't think that's really happening. I think that is a question of, you know, universities allowing whatever speakers they want. Separate discussion. Anyway, that is something I could see happening though in Europe, in Canada, where it

0:46:47 Eiynah: Yeah, I hope

0:47:25 Thomas: Is not as explicitly protected because there already already are like hate speech laws in some of these places. How do you interpret that? Who gets to decide? It doesn't work. Content-based restriction on speech is very problematic and should only be done with the least amount of...

0:47:25 Eiynah: Not. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah if inciting violence or something. Yeah oh yeah I mean I will always defend Tommy's freedom of speech. A lot of people just threw false accusations at me, they were like, "Oh, you're just a regressive leftist who wants to de-platform him." No, look me up, I've interviewed him a couple of years before Dave Rubin, Rubin did, with Godless Bell Checker, and we were polite, friendly, we all got along, we were nice to each other, yet he was not left unchallenged. So other people then also were like, "You didn't, oh, you know, how can you accuse Dave of not challenging him when" and you weren't rude enough or you weren't challenging enough. Like, that's just not me. I'm not going to yell and scream because I don't think that that's effective. I'll be polite to Tommy. I'll be polite to someone who, you know, I find, you know, Tommy too. And like CJ, both opposite ends, but both wildly unacceptable views to me.

0:47:51 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah... I

0:48:47 Eiynah: And I'm polite to both of them because I feel that that is more productive and and we can actually get some talking done rather than shouting at each other.

0:48:57 Thomas: Think you you will convert Tommy to Islam before you will have a productive conversation with CJ Worleman. That's just my experience speaking.

0:49:09 Eiynah: Sure, but at least what's productive is getting it on record. Because

0:49:12 Thomas: Yeah, no, the attempt is certainly sincere and something to be applauded for sure. But yeah, oh man, there was a time, people, listeners might might know. There was a time, CJ's been on this show, I think twice, uh, back, you know, a couple of years ago now, but there was a Time when I would have tried, like I had even been planning on having CJ on, uh.

0:49:37 Eiynah: I was nice to him, he agreed to talk to me. And so then because of that, I was able to say, look, you're so anti-racist, quote unquote, yet you use terms like paid brownface for Ayaan, you know, house Arab. How is that not racist, right? Right. Like, so in that politeness, you can say a lot more, possibly listen.

0:49:50 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, oh, sure. I mean, I, I don't, I haven't yelled at him or anything. I've just, I've tried politely to say that stuff and nothing changes. So I, what I mean to say is for me, and I'm not saying like, feel free to do it, you Know, try all you can. I just want to, For my listeners, I was

0:50:05 Eiynah: Oh, I know. I'm done trying. It was a one time thing.

0:50:19 Thomas: Trying to do that with CJ, but he is a brick wall. There comes a point, I'm fully pro, I'll have anyone on disagree with him talk, but once I've tried that, someone has demonstrated they just cannot change their mind. I do not know what will change CJ's mind, and his views are not, it's not like, oh, here's my opinion on this, and then we can talk about the reasons. Reasons, it's just spewing catchphrases and and it's it's yeah when

0:50:41 Eiynah: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like all new atheists promote violence. Oh, please give me a break, CJ.

0:50:51 Thomas: When you get to a level of discourse, yeah, exactly, where you're not even, you're not like, there's so much wrong in the premises of what you're saying that I wouldn't even know where to start, like, so I honestly had to stop following him, my my Uh, my days got a lot better, like, my feet, like, I just felt better once. Once I stopped seeing things where it's like, I can't even think of how to respond to this because it's, like, he believes in flat earth or something. It's like you'd have to go down to the core of all his assumptions and be like, where is this coming from, you know? So, good luck with that. But just for people who don't know, I mean, you engaged, what was it, like three letters back and forth or, yeah, mm-hmm,

0:51:05 Eiynah: Oh yeah. Yeah. What do you even say? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, my main achievement is that it's on record for

0:51:37 Thomas: Yeah.

0:51:37 Eiynah: His followers, many of whom approached me and like, oh, new atheists aren't as, you know, awful and unreasonable as I thought they were. I mean I don't self-identify as a new atheist. I don't know what the hell that term is. But

0:51:51 Thomas: I don't Know That Anyone Does. Like, I don't even know what that term means anymore.

0:51:52 Eiynah: Yeah, I don''t know either. But I just wanted to put it out there. People who are vocal about religion have valid reasons to be so, especially if it's

0:52:03 Thomas: Oh, yeah. No, that that's certainly honorable. I hope it made a difference. Maybe so. It's not going to change his mind, but maybe some of his followers, like you said, maybe they'll.

0:52:11 Eiynah: Possible, exactly. So it's worth it to put it on record, I feel. Anyways, the charge against me was that if I can, you know, be so nice to CJ, then why am I complaining that Ruben wasn't challenging enough? The point, the difference here, the key difference that people are not seeing is that I brought out all his problem areas and mentioned them all in the letter as many as I could in our short interaction.

0:52:12 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no one would read your letter and think you were on CJ's side, whereas people will see Ruben and think he's he's fully on Tommy Robinson's side. I think.

0:52:39 Eiynah: No, whereas, and also, he let Tommy, uh, off without presenting any of his really troubling views, like deportation, banning Muslim immigration, um, and questioning him on that. I didn't say he had to be rude to him, some, you know. So I don't understand this comparison. And then the people that are are gushing over this interview, oh, and then, you know, you even tell them in good faith that, you know, just in case you don't know, because, uh, you don't know who Tommy Robinson is, this is who he is, blah blah blah. Is it really, uh, you know, that great of an interview? And they'll double down, they'll sink their teeth in, and, uh, oh yeah, hey,

0:53:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:53:31 Thomas: Yep. Yeah, and just for the record, if this ever happens to me, I understand as an interviewer, you're not going to be infallible. You might miss stuff. If someone ever comes to me and says, here's who you just let on, they email me about you, Eiynah, and they see you have some old tweets saying, kill all white people. Then what I'm going to do is say, you know what?

0:53:56 Eiynah: But even then, though, if, if they were old, I don't have any, feel free to look at my Twitter, but if I hypothetically did many years ago and then I changed, I think that's

0:54:06 Thomas: Oh, sure. But but I would say, you know what? Let me ask her about that. Let me let me make sure that's a that's a scary point. I think I should make sure very clear that I don't endorse things she's tweeting necessarily. I would say, OK, I miss something. I wouldn't double down on like, oh, no, it's fine that I let her come on and say whatever.

0:54:06 Eiynah: Yeah, yeah, yes, no, you're regressives for challenging me, or whatever, that's the problem, you know. Just sometimes owning your mistake is isn't the honorable thing to do. There's, there was really not much great about that interview, it wasn't really eye-opening, or he, he introduced Tommy to a whole new audience. Yeah, he introduced them as a reasonable-sounding person, which was really irresponsible in this time of heightened anti-Muslim, anti-refugee bigotry. And he also endorsed Pegida by saying, it doesn't sound like a hate group at all.

0:54:27 Thomas: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah,

0:55:02 Eiynah: So that is a problem.

0:55:02 Thomas: Yeah. And and I think we I think we kicked that in the butt. So that's that issue. The sexism is another whole thing that just lets you in on a little window into his brain. What's that?

0:55:11 Eiynah: Right. And then someone who I was telling at that point, you know, this is who Tommy is, not such a great guy, was tagged in by Tommy into these sexist tweets, saw them, ignored them completely, and continued the stance of gushing about what a wonderful interview, and even promoted Tommy by writing about him. So I don't see how you can see those tweets, ignore them. If it was an Islamist making those tweets towards Mariam, hundreds of people would have stepped in. There's that tribalism again, right?

0:55:57 Thomas: Yeah.

0:55:58 Eiynah: Mariam's one of our own when she's an atheist and she's standing against Islamists. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of atheists will come forward and defend her. When Tommy is abusing her, harassing her, and his followers are harassing she, No one's stepping in, maybe like three people, to say that's not cool. Meanwhile, people are gushing that Dave Rubin did such a fantastic job interviewing Tommy. It's just a very unwelcoming situation for us from all sides.

0:56:26 Thomas: Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to, like I said, Sam Harris and and Miriam. I'm hoping that'll be a chance to maybe bridge this gap a little. Maybe that'll help. Who knows how it'll go? Is he going to talk to you? It seems like Harris has expressed some interest in talking to you, or maybe is he thinking when he talks to Miriam, he'll address your issues too or something.

0:56:47 Eiynah: So I have no idea. I mean, he said he'd respond to my letter. He mentioned, yeah. Yeah, he mentioned it in his podcast, though he did misrepresent my position a little bit, simplifying it. And I sent him a follow-up a couple of points after that. He acknowledged that, too. So, I mean, that really is something I admire about Sam Harris and always have is his integrity and ability to face criticism. You know, how he actually responds.

0:56:49 Thomas: Okay. Right. Well, that's something.

0:57:17 Thomas: Yeah, me too. That's why I like him because I think he does do his best. And I think he was trying to quickly get through your issue if I were to defend him. Yeah.

0:57:27 Eiynah: It's possible. Absolutely. Yeah.

0:57:29 Thomas: But maybe he got it wrong and he looked at your clarification. I can only hope that he'll...

0:57:33 Eiynah: Yeah. I'm only hoping that the discussion will represent my views better.

0:57:35 Thomas: Right, right, right. So that'll be interesting to see. I was hoping that you would say he had reached out to talk or something, but maybe in the future. Who knows?

0:57:40 Eiynah: Yeah. He's a busy guy, anything can happen, maybe he wants to, maybe he will write, I don't know, maybe he'll just address it in his conversation with Mariam, but the fact that he's open to talking about this rather than saying anyone who criticizes me is a regressive use

0:57:47 Thomas: Yeah.

0:58:04 Thomas: Yeah, he certainly doesn't say that. And he even he even said in his last podcast, he talked about, you know, well, he probably, yeah, I'm sure he got it from me. You know, I've been sitting, no, I'm just kidding.

0:58:11 Eiynah: Of regressive of Yeah. Oh, Yeah, I'm sure this is your podcast. Can

0:58:16 Thomas: Something I've Been Saying for About a Month. I hate that term. It's overused. And he said the same thing. So I felt, I felt good. I was like, oh, good. Great minds, you now. No, I don't know. I'm kidding.

0:58:28 Thomas: But we'll see how that goes. I mean, it's possible he'll be completely missed the point on that. Who knows? I mean, I'm hopeful that he won't, though. Yeah. Well, Thanks for coming on. And the Skype connection was a little rough. Sorry, I was talking over each other.

0:58:34 Eiynah: Only Wait and see it was, yeah, it faded in and out, yeah, yeah.

0:58:44 Thomas: Yeah, what can you do? I will never understand why it seems to work fine sometimes. Other times it doesn't. Who know? But I still think your message came Came through loud and clear. And thanks so much for coming on.

0:58:45 Eiynah: No,

0:58:58 Thomas: You can be found at nicemangos.blogspot.ca.

0:58:57 Eiynah: Problem, thanks for having me on. Nice Uh,

0:59:03 Thomas: Is that right?

0:59:04 Eiynah: Yeah, that's right, and my Twitter handle at nice mangoes, no e in mangoes, take care.

0:59:10 Thomas: Gotcha. So that's where you can find Eiynah. Very good stuff. Thanks for coming.

0:59:23 Thomas: Well, there you have it, I was truly looking forward to the Sam Harris, Mariam Namazie discussion. For scheduling reasons, I had already planned to post this late, and then that happened, so that made it kind of weird, but anyway, I, yeah, and my, my expectations were quite dashed as I referenced last podcast, but there you go. I also want to say, day.

One thing I think Eiynah, Eiynah pointed out to me on Twitter, we were messaging each other a little bit, because there was even more people body-shaming Mariam Namazie, and it's, look, it's as simple as this, I mean, no matter how much you disagree with someone, and I disagree with a lot of what Namazie said, or at least, I disagree mostly with her approach to the discussion, and, Eiynah pointed out, there, there was a, a comic someone drew that greatly exaggerated, uh, Mariam's body and made her look awful and all that and essentially body shamed her Really badly, and that was the entire crux of the cartoon, and Eiynah pointed out, people who do this have very little high ground over people who force women to veil, and I thought that was interesting, I think she's probably tweeted it as well, but but she, she direct messaged me that, and I agree, I mean, I think it takes sexism to even make the connection that you're going to shame someone's naked body for their views, you know?

And, and people, the, the argument people are trying to bring in is, oh, well, she opened herself up to criticism. So this is just a, I even saw someone tweeted this. This is just responding. This is just criticizing her. It's like, no, that's not, not an appropriate, you don't, that's not a go-to when you disagree with someone.

1:01:12 Thomas: You don't say, well, yeah, well, here's how you look naked. Like that doesn't, there's no connection to their views. It just doesn't. So So anyway, also, you'll notice this episode was a bit long, it's because I didn't want to do a two-parter, I figured we'd just get this one all out in one go, sometimes I do that, sometimes, I try to make it a two parter, just depends on how I feel, you know, the flow of the episode went, so, but please, review the show on iTunes, pretty please, and also, support the show at, patreon.com/atheist, thank you so much to everyone who has, I really appreciate it, got some great new patrons lately, and I definitely want to make sure to thank them, as I always do on the Thursday episode, or at least I try to, Mick H, thank you, Dan Richards, thank you, lilbuckaru.

1:01:59 Thomas: Thank you so much. Chris, thank you. Seth, thank you, uh, that's, yeah, lots of new patrons last week. Thank you guys so much, it's very much appreciated. Go to patreon.com/atheist if you'd like to support the show. You'll get episodes early, you'll get bonus content from time to time, that sort of thing. So, thanks for that, and I will see you next week.