AS209: Twitter Trolls and Online Harassment, with Eli Bosnick

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:32 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 209. I am your host, Thomas Smith, and I have sort of an unexpected guest on today's show, and that's Eli Bosnick. You, I'm sure, remember Eli from various episodes that I've...

0:00:49 Eli: It's me!

0:00:50 Thomas: Yeah, okay, we're not talking about social... I'm gonna get this right off my chest, get this... make sure everyone understands what's going on. We're not having you back to talk about the previous episodes with Cogdiss and all that. That's still set at a later date. Here's what happened. Let me give everyone some backstory. Eli, buckle in, take a nap or something, because I'm going to have to give sort of the backstory on this. I've been having some interactions. I've noticed people lately, actually, I need to go further back. Some months ago, I saw somebody misrepresent Hitchens' view on the Iraq War. War. And this was actually, I have it in my notes from like three months ago, do something on Hitchens and the Iraq War. Like that's my note. And so I began a very long research process to read everything he said and like watch a bunch of his debates.

0:01:41 Thomas: And I actually even found a book that he wrote that turned out to be actually a collection of essays. So it might've been available a different way, but I don't know, who cares? I still bought the book. I'm reading it and all that. And then this stuff lately that has come up that some people may be familiar with is PZ Myers has been going off on Hitchens and his view on Iraq, and in my opinion, misrepresenting it pretty severely. And the godless spell checker, Stephen, I don't know his last name, but I think his first name is Stephen, or his last names eluding me. He's been doing some good work on on dispelling some of the views that PZ is assigning to Hitch. And so that's been happening. And because it's in the Twittersphere, it's kind of on people's minds, I had thought, oh, should I rush to try to get this episode I want to do, or maybe even several episodes, on Hitchens and his view on the Iraq War?

0:02:36 Thomas: Do I wantto try to rush that out? And my decision was, yes, I'd better just do it now to try point out some ofthe flaws in what PZis saying. Saying, but then I was talking to Eli because he guest hosted over on Comedy Shoeshine, which was a rare occurrence, another story, but if you want to check that out, that'll be out as we speak, actually, as you're hearing us. He guested over on comedy shoeshine, great show, lots of fun. We started talking about something that I was going to talk about anyway. And so because Eli is so great, he agreed to stay on and record a little bit about this topic. We'll see how long it goes. Doesn't really matter. Or it's just something that's a really good topic that I think will be fun to talk about and interesting too. And it'll be, that way I'm kind of off the hook because I really want to make sure I finish my research on Hitch before, I don't want to do like a half research show because I'm trying to rush it.

0:03:29 Thomas: So I'm going to hold off on that and I'll allude to it, but feel free. Eli has expressed his interest in not just speaking off the cuff about something that he hasn't researched.

0:03:41 Eli: Guys, I've got these thermite charts that I want, they're going to be in the show links to the episode. Listen, four students at Yale are actually Christopher Hitchens. Hear me out. He got in a cloning machine in 1977.

0:03:46 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. Oh, man. So, okay. Now that I've gotten the broader backstory, let me do the very quick thing and then we can launch into our topic. Here's what happened to me vis-a-vis or as regards PZ Myers. Now, I just actually was talking about him. You may have heard, Eli, because I think you said maybe you listened to the show. I'm cueing you to go. You can't see me, but I'm giving you an elbow.

0:04:14 Eli: So have You said anything recently about my show? Like how you like it? No, I listen to the show, I mentioned this over on Comedy Shoeshine, I listened to the show pretty regularly. I don't listen to a lot of podcasts, but I listen to this one because it's super duper smart and it challenges me and it makes me think and it's not a headline show. There are a couple of shows I listen too, the ones who genuinely make me laugh, which is incredibly hard, and the people who I think are so much smarter than me that I'm never going to have heard of the ideas they're talking about or heard of the ideas that their guests are talking about. And since being on your show I have come to be a regular listener and for those who don't I mentioned this very briefly but I basically live tweet as I listen to all the shows to Thomas, I'll be like, well, how come this How come that? And then he wakes up to just 85 messages from me on his Facebook being like, dude, why, why'd you say that?

0:05:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:10 Eli: What? Does that mean

0:05:10 Thomas: I like It, I love it, it's funny, I'm somehow never on whenever you're doing this because I Always come to like four or five messages of stuff that's awesome, um, thank you so much. For saying that I really appreciate that and I've said it on this show I'll say it again just just because uh I I don't want to be a uh a one-way uh praise receiver or whatever um I listen to of gam every week. And I think it is the funniest show that I listened to. It is so funny. I could do basically, if this were a different show, Eli, I would ask you to just do like 20 minutes of, I'm Not hurting anybody, We're not, what's wrong.

0:05:15 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. I'm Not hurting anybody, brother, look. I'm just gonna poop here in this saddle, I mean, I need to ride that horse. I'm not hurting anybody, you're hurting, it's not how the world, I'm Not hurting anybody, what would Jesus do, I don't know, yell at an olive tree, yeah, not Hurting Anybody, yeah.

0:05:49 Thomas: That was, oh man. He's not hurting anybody. So I, if anyone doesn't get that reference, check out latest episode of God God awful movies. I was laughing so hard at that joke because it's like such a perfect example of Christian movies, these ones that you do. And many of them, some of them are obscure, but many ofهم are like mainstream. Like that movie had real people in it.

0:06:21 Thomas: That had real actors in it, I think, right?

0:06:21 Eli: These Movies Make millions and

0:06:24 Thomas: Millions of dollars.

0:06:24 Eli: Millions Of dollars.

0:06:26 Thomas: And they, it's so funny because those little things you bring up, they offer such a nice lens into the just distorted reality that these people sometimes have. It's not just, oh, they have Christian beliefs and that's different than us. It pervades everything. They make a movie and in that movie, they think that this is how homeless people work.

0:06:26 Eli: Yeah.

0:06:51 Eli: Well, that's, that's something that comes up all the time is that I would say it's incredibly rare for us to talk about the actual, like, religious beliefs of the characters In Our Movies, most, we were just like, this person looks like a chicken nugget was Brought to life by a witch, why does this character think it's okay to go hit your wife in the face and then at the end you're the protagonist of the movie, what Is happening, why is everyone dressed like Batman, like, it's never an ontological debate, bait, yeah.

0:06:59 Thomas: That's a good point. Yeah, exactly. But it's so interesting because Because it would make sense, it makes sense to me anyway, that having a sort of distorted reality or slightly bad model of reality in your own mind, it doesn't just affect religion. I mean, a lot of people think it can be that simple, like, oh, no, it's just religious beliefs and then everyone, everything else, they're totally normal, they are fine. Well, I don't know, maybe, but also if you have a distorted model of reality, something slightly off in your model of reality, it might pervade to other things like homelessness, where you depict it in in the stupidest way that this last movie, I just, it's really funny. So I love that.

0:07:47 Eli: Can I have A job, give me your job, he

0:07:54 Thomas: The guy just goes and asks people for a job.

0:07:57 Eli: Waits Outside a newspaper, like their office, and he's just like, hey, I can work with my hands, and she's like, do you have newspaper experience? He's like, nope, but I'm wearing a Camo jacket And She was like Give

0:08:05 Thomas: And, and he's probably the good guy, right? Like, like Christians are probably watching that thinking, yeah, give that guy a job, man.

0:08:12 Eli: That Guy a job, giving him a chance. Can you Read or write? Nope, but I've got a shine in my eye and an apple on my heart.

0:08:16 Thomas: Well, yes. I apologize for laughing uncontrollably but that's pretty much what I do during your show. It's great. I really love it. I don't miss it now. It is great. To try to get back to serious topics, I think. Here is what happened briefly. I saw PZ tweet some of the stuff about Iraq. I was holding off. I wanted to do a show about it, etc., etc., but I saw one thing that I had to just do a quick tweet about. He has been been saying that Hitchens, and again, Eli, feel free, we're going to eventually branch off of the Iraq stuff. So don't worry about these factual things. I'm just going to describe it real quick.

0:09:00 Eli: That's what I mean, hey Eli, don't you worry about any of the stuff that's true, I'll just, I'll cue you right the fuck up when it's time for dick jokes again, don't you worry. As Well I Deserve you

0:09:09 Thomas: No, I meant don't be pulled into a... I don't want to actually have a conversation about Iraq, is what I'm going to say.

0:09:14 Eli: Won't Don't I don't know anything about this subject, I Promise you

0:09:18 Thomas: Okay. Okay, so Iraq invaded the U.S. I don't know if you know this. No.

0:09:19 Eli: Oh No.

0:09:25 Thomas: No. So here's what happened. He was saying Hitchens' view, he kept saying Hitchins' view was was that he wanted to essentially genocide a lot of Muslims. He really, and I'm not strawmanning. He's strawmannings. He actually said these things. Like Hitchens just wants to, and I think he even spelled it Moslems. I think to try to like, even though Hitchens didn't do that, I think it's another little tactic by PZ to try to make him into an ignorant racist or something. And so he expressed the view that Hitchens wants to just kill as many. His view on the Iraq war was, yeah, just kill him. As many people as you can kill, that's great. And that's just not it. That's not what Hitchin's view was. And people responded to Peasy and said, no, when you cited these words, Hitchins says, and yes, sometimes they were a bit hawkish.

0:10:14 Thomas: I don't agree with all of them. Sometimes he would talk a bit positively about, a bit too flowery about how we're going to kill these people. He was talking about Al-Qaeda and jihadists who, you know, who want to like blow themselves up on our territory. Like that was what he was talking about. He wasn't talking about Iraqi citizens. That's just not true. Someone pointed this out to him. And then PZ came back with a link to how many civilians had died in Iraq since from the war to now. And he said, oh, really? This is Hitchens just wanted to kill jihadists? Look at this, which is a total non sequitur, of course, in my mind. I mean, if Hitchens supported regime change in Iraq, it doesn't mean he supports everything that Bush did or everything.

0:11:02 Thomas: By the way, not all those civilian casualties are from us. Like maybe 37% of them I was looking up are from us. The rest is, which is bad. I'm not saying it's good, but the rest was from the, well, a lot of it's ISIS now. And then the anti-ISIS forces are actually not very good at stopping casualties. I means, civilian casualties, they're not as as precise as we were, actually, and all that. So that's a separate debate. But anyway, I just pointed out simply in one tweet to PZ, maybe my first tweet ever to Pz, I don't even know, I haven't interacted with him, really. I tweeted a response and said, so because he supported regime change, therefore he's responsible for every civilian death in Iraq since? That doesn't, I said, that's nonsense. That's all I said. And that could open up discussion, that could whatever.

0:11:48 Thomas: I know he's probably not going to tweet back at me, whatever. But people can see it, people can tweet, maybe we can start a discussion about it, whatever. And I find out like maybe a couple hours later, I was looking up his tweets and he blocked me. He blocked me for that tweet. For one tweet, it wasn't harassment, I didn't spam him, I did not do anything like that. I did NOT call him names, nothing. I literally said that I disagree with this, that is nonsense, done. End of Twitter, he blocked Me. Me. And that's when I was having a discussion with Eli on the other show. We realized, oh, I want to talk about blocking people on Twitter and how you deal with that and how you deal mit trolls, because I think that's a very fascinating topic. And so that's what we're here to do. Sorry for the long backstory.

0:12:34 Thomas: But so my policy, let me just lay it out real quick. And then for

0:12:34 Eli: No, every Time I own this show, you just talk over me and Talk over, I feel like I don't ever get a chance to speak, honestly, I feel Like I don't get to talk at all!

0:12:44 Thomas: Those of you who don't know, that was the voice of Eli Bosnick. I it on this show. Oh, that's awesome. No, that was a good joke. So my policy personally, and I understand I'm totally open to people having different policies, and that's why I want to talk about it. My policy on Twitter is unless someone is repeatedly spamming to the point where they're, you know, restricting my ability to actually use Twitter, because once people are just tweeting at you nonstop, it's hard to filter out like, oh, what's a tweet I actually want to to look at, you know, what's a reply I care about. If they're doing that, sure, block them. I understand that. If They're saying, um, kind of violent rhetoric or hateful things to understand, block them, I will never block someone who just disagrees with me. I will Never do it. You I it doesn't matter what it is. And that's one thing. I don't think people are hard enough on people who do that.

0:12:50 Eli: Oh yeah.

0:13:38 Thomas: And I get that it's their right. Yeah, it's PZ Myers right to do whatever the fuck he wants on Twitter. I get that. I'm not trying to say it's not. So I'm going to nip that in the bud because that's always, oh, it's free speech. You can block what, yeah, I get it. We're talking about, we're talking about ethics. We'RE talking about like, what should be a good way of going about things, not what's legal. So, I just want to stop that right there. What are your thoughts on that, Eli? You can talk for an hour now.

0:14:03 Eli: Okay, great, excellent, wonderful, uh, Tom, you want to go get a sandwich Or something Go for It, pro

0:14:05 Thomas: Yep. I'M going to be in the back. I'll be, yeah. Yeah.

0:14:06 Eli: Yeah Exactly Go get your Subway, uh, her name is Stephanie, uh, that's A Comedy Shoeshine Reference Like Four guys Are like, ah, um So I, here's the thing, I, I'm the same way, I have a no blocking policy as well under any circumstances except for a direct physical threat. If you make a threat to me, I block you on Twitter and I also take other actions as well because I take that seriously, because I'm not worried about people as a general rule, and this is something that I think is a problem, and I get, I get a ton of hate, I got a ton of hate after being on CogDiss, I got a ton of hate after being on your show, um, but I also got people who just genuinely wanted to have a conversation and maybe they wanted to have it passionately, you know, there are a couple of people who, you know, they don't say it nicely, but they want to talk to me, you know, and I, I think that's really important to A, allow that conversation and B, understand it.

0:14:11 Thomas: Can I use Shushan reference? Yeah. Accurate.

0:15:07 Eli: Now, I will say that I think there are certain situations where people need to understand that disagreement does not equal harassment, but disagreement does not necessarily forgive whatever it is that you tweet at people, you know? And so I think, so

0:15:24 Thomas: Can he explain that? What do you mean exactly?

0:15:26 Eli: This, so this is the example that I give is like a lot of the time when I talk to people, they'll talk about like the behavior that people have towards, and I'm trying to think of someone who's not going to get me 90 million abusive tweets about how fat I am, but I'm going to use Anita Sarkeesian, Right? So like when you disagree with Anita Sarkesian and you say, there are ways to approach that conversation. Okay. And there are waves to approach your criticisms of her ideas, you know, and tweeting, you know, everything that, you know, tweeting a hashtag feminine hashtag feminism is cancer is not a useful way to engage in conversation with someone.

Now, here's the thing, people tweet horrible shit at me all the time, and the people who don't want to have a girl, now I want to say based on this show and Cognitive, people were lovely to me. I got a bunch of people who were like thank you so much for saying that, but I also got people who are like wrong, and I was like, yeah, I know I was wrong, and they were also like, but I want to have this conversation with you, and they don't necessarily have to be polite about it, and I'm so grateful for that, I'm så grateful for that dialogue. That's different than if every time she tweets you go, you're a liar and a thief, everything

0:15:44 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

0:16:43 Eli: That comes out of her fat mouth is, you know, if you spew you hatred at someone, hatred in the guise of disagreement is not equivalent so when

0:16:54 Thomas: Yeah. Fair point. So you would support Anita blocking those people. Is that what you're saying?

0:16:55 Eli: Right exactly or disabling. So, you know, a lot of people talk about like, oh, she disables comments on her videos because she doesn't want a conversation, and I'm like, well, yes, that might be part of it, but it also might be the incredibly horrible mean-spirited evil shit that people send Senator, you know, and that might be the reason she disables comments. And we can't say, you know, the reason that she disabled. Now I think PZ is wrong, right? I would never, if someone said not, I mean a million people tweeted me nonsense. And each time I was like, you know I, I always say the same thing to people. I, if they're anonymous, I say I have a problem with an anonymity. Please email me so we can have a conversation because behind anonymity people tend to say things they don't mean. People tend to stay meaner things than they mean, and they don't really want to have a conversation. They're just sort of like showing off for Twitter, right?

0:17:00 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Right.

0:17:51 Eli: A lot of the time. And what's happened, right.

0:17:51 Thomas: Right. I could imagine if you have someone email, it's a much different story once they start email.

0:17:55 Eli: And what's happens nine out of 10 times when someone has emailed me is that we've had a fantastic conversation. Like it's, it's instantly shifted the tone. Like someone who tweeted at me, like you SJW bullshit, like liar. This is the, this is the way the regressive left works. They work in lies and hatred and evil. And, and then they email me and they're like, Hey hey man, I want you to know I'm really hurt that you feel like you restrict free speech. And I'm like, no, I don't. I want to talk about that. And it's been great. And they've been like, I love your show. It's gotten so good. But there's a mask there. And we've also, and I want To Distinguish Something Slightly. And I know I am jabbering, jawing on a little bit.

0:18:34 Eli: Yeah, I Want To Distinquish Slightly, there is a different, this is why I think I have something interesting to say about this subject. Because one of the things that I got that was interesting is like, why are you talking about this? You're not a professor, you don't have any education on this subject. I mean, I have some, but I have a BFA in trauma. I'm not a feminist major or anything. I don't know my degree in feminist studies or anything like that. The reason why I think I have something interesting to say on this object is that I'm a humorist. And more importantly, I'm an actor. I am a comedian who hits all of those subjects in his comedy. And if you've listened to my show, if you're listening listen to gam, it's homophobic and misogynistic and fat shaming and all that stuff. It's all in my comedy, but

0:18:33 Thomas: No, no, that's okay. I like it.

0:18:46 Thomas: Hmm.

0:19:17 Eli: My, yes, exactly.

0:19:17 Thomas: That's for sure. I can attest to that. And it's something actually, I'm glad you brought that up because it's to the, there was one episode that happened sort of after we had our first discussions on here where I was like, wait, what just happened? I thought you were all about trigger warnings and all that. And then you had an episode that was so offensive. Now I don't care because nothing offends me, but I, what is, how do you reconcile that?

0:19:26 Eli: Yeah.

0:19:39 Thomas: I wonder.

0:19:39 Eli: So, So this is, this is my thing. I have a show. There is a space in which I release this humor. And you know, the, the way I describe this show to people who are either about to come on it or people who have never heard it when I'm talking talking to like media or people about it is I say it's a Comedy Central roast of Christian movies, right?

0:19:58 Thomas: Uh, okay.

0:19:59 Eli: You know, the rules when you walk in, you know, right.

0:20:01 Thomas: Except funny by the way, but yeah.

0:20:03 Eli: Yeah, exactly. Except funny and not desperately, desperately sad about B-level celebrities. Um, but you know the rules, you know that I limit myself to that specific sphere. It is not a comedy show to go on R r slash progress pics and tell people to kill themselves. You are not a comedian. That's not funny. That is not a joke. That s not a way that people enjoy themselves and better experience the world. Here s the thing, and I m going to talk out of my ass here. I can only speak to my personal experience. I get emails from people all the time that say, hey, man, I want you to know I was was really hurt by X, Y, and Z joke. I really didn't like this thing you said.

I want you to know that this thing that you said really bothered me or hurt me. And I didn't want to hear you say it in this time to stop. AndI always say to them, Hey, I'm really sorry. You feel that way. I know thatthis can be a sensitive subject.

I hope you know that I come from a place of humor that we think of our show as a roast, that we use this wild without, you know, without restriction sense of humor to sort of blow up everything, including ourselves and other people and the things we believe in the things we don't and the jokes we make.

0:20:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:21:19 Eli: Um, but I want you to know that if you felt like this was an attack, it wasn't aimed at you. And, and here's why I think that's important is when you go on Twitter, right? And you tweet a quote unquote joke about how I'm a a piece of shit and I'm fat and I should kill myself or how I'm a disgusting human being who should you know be arrested and you hope I get doxxed and someone comes and rapes my girlfriend or some of the horrible shit that I got you know tweeted and messaged and stuff like that in in various forms you're not playing in the same zone that I'm playing in and that I

0:21:48 Thomas: Jeez. By the way. If any of my listeners did that, just stop listening to my show. Seriously. I don't, I don'T want those kinds of people.

0:22:02 Eli: I I cannot cannot fathom it was anyone. I don't think anyone listens to your like incredibly well thought out show and then it's like I should tell that guy his girlfriend should get raped. I think Thomas did a real good job on that abortion debate It was real subtle.

0:22:11 Thomas: Let's debate the merits of this, yeah. Yeah. Oh.

0:22:16 Eli: I think we got all sides of that story. Anyways, she should get fucked when you aren't home and then you'd know what it was like. Sent good stuff. No, actually, I can tell that it's so It's så funny I can't tell a listener, listener, based on the thing, based, on their, based on what they, like, the level of debate they want to have with me, like, because everybody, I think, and maybe I'm wrong, all the Cogdiss emails I got, I got a couple of ones, I Got a couple ones that were just like, you, sir, are a liar and a whore, and I was like, I get it, sure, um, you're right about the first part, not on purpose, but you were right, um, and that, that's very Cogddissy, but then there were people that were was just so clearly like fuck you and I was just like

0:22:25 Thomas: Man, that's so funny. Their Grammar. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man.

0:22:54 Thomas: Yeah. Yep.

0:22:59 Eli: All right, okay, you don't get what glory hole is doing, you just you just like dick jokes, so here's my, there is a difference, and this is what I know, it's not related to the PZ Myers thing, but I do want to talk about Twitter because it's a it's something I've experienced, and it's something that I think people are confused about, which is that I am in a specific zone and my commentary is limited within that specific zone and how seriously people have to take me, how much credit people have to give the things I say and do, certainly on GAM, you know, I try and be a little bit more careful on Scathing and stuff like that, because no one, he sort of bring out their smart and skeptocrat, you know, I sort of am the comedic foil a lot of the time, you know, those guys will talk about, you know.

Well, this is what Trump said and this is why it doesn't work, and I'm like, yeah, he looks like someone had an abortion and a cotton candy machine and they're like, great, thanks Eli, it was good, good. You know, we get what he's going, but the key is there's this, there's this notion about internet trolling, that it's also comedy, that it's just people trying to get your goat.

0:23:05 Thomas: Yeah. Oh. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:06 Eli: And I got that a million times when I talked about trolls is people saying, it's just people trying to get your goat, it's not important, you know, everybody does it, and it's not true. It is not people trying to get someone's goat. It's people who know the destruction they're doing, they know the damage they're doing, and they don't care, and they're doing it, and I have my own reasons why I think, and here's the thing, trolls, people who send me stuff that are like, I hope your girlfriend gets raped and yada yada, all the horrible stuff that I got sent, and yeah, that was an email from like a fuck you at gmail.com it was really funny, it was like, it was you suck eli at 273 at gmail.com someone just like made a Gmail to say that to me

0:24:45 Thomas: The first 272 had already been used, by the way, to send you the same email. Yeah.

0:24:49 Eli: Right yeah right exactly, here's the thing, and those people don't bother me a because I'm funnier than you, and that's the truth, I'm just funnier than you, so when you do that to me, I can come back and just be like, whoa, and you're just like, I don't know what to do, he's so fast, I get it, I get it, it's hard to be a troll when someone's funnier then you, but when you take someone who's vulnerable and you aim to strike out at them in the name of quote unquote comedy or in the the name of quote unquote disagreement, you lose the opportunity to have a conversation with someone like PZ. So if I were to guess, I would say that we could just sit PZ down and say, hey man, why'd you block Thomas? Like, Thomas is a good guy, listen to all this stuff he's written. And he'd be like, oh yeah, no, he's a smart guy, I like his stuff or whatever. I don't know if that's my PZ having never heard his voice. That's my PC impersonation.

0:25:38 Thomas: Yeah. It's pretty close.

0:25:42 Eli: He'd be like smart stuff. This this is a good thing. But the fact that he just gets hundreds and hundreds of hateful bombarding, just like mean spirited garbage has shut down our ability to teach him and help him. And I'm so, so grateful that for the people who reached out to me and said, Hey man, do you know that thing you said is untrue on the show? I'm still grateful. But if I had nine years years of hate mail before that, I might be in the same position PZ is in.

0:26:13 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah, that's a good point. I think that's an important aspect to it because I would never, I mean, okay, it's kind of weird because last week I talked about how I, I mean, in my view, women get harassed more online. It seems pretty uncontroversial to me and to the experiences that I know about. And I did get a little bit of kickback on that. Like someone said, oh, no, it's the same for men and women online. I mean I don't know what study you're referencing, but

0:26:43 Eli: Yeah. I have no idea how to disprove that. I've, I've had people say it as well. They say it's equal. And I'm like, I just, I don't know what you're talking about.

0:26:43 Thomas: Yeah, I doubt it. Yeah, because think about, I mean walking down the street, men get near zero harassment and women get constant harassment. Okay, dudes, right now, talk to your significant other if you have one, if you don't, find some random girl and accost her. If you have a wife, before

0:27:06 Eli: Hey, Hey, hey, beautiful. I just want to know how often you get harassed right now, this moment, or

0:27:09 Thomas: You tell her to smile, Ask her this. No, because I talked to my wife about it. Every girl has the story of, yeah, no, when I walk down the street, I'm by myself, I have to go into like bitch face mode or I have to go like, they legitimately, like, they have to do all these tactics just because they're so tired of men talking to them in ways that they don't want and advancing at them in ways they don't want.

0:27:35 Eli: Just Like, look at our, look at our equivalents. Right. And I know they're not, they don't have the same shows and et cetera, et cetera. But like, look at Zandy Morgan Moore, right, Nick's wife, who's that Zandy girl on Twitter, she writes stuff that is 90 times more mild than anything that's ever come out of my putrid fat face and she just gets the worst hatred in the, you can't imagine it, or Callie over at the Gathias Manifesto, who I'm obsessed with because I listen to her show and she has such an interesting, like, perspective, but like you look at the stuff that gets sent to her on Twitter and it's just, and look, I got some hate stuff right after Cog Diss and and your show, but like, it also was always accompanied by like, think you're really funny, man.

It was always like, fuck you, you lying sack of shit, I loved episode three when you do that. And I'm just like, okay, I don't get anything close to, you know, people, you know, Xandy went on, and so, so bravely did hashtag one and three where she talked about her abortion and her experience of getting an abortion and the responses she got from people are just monstrous.

0:27:35 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.

0:28:25 Thomas: Wait.

0:28:41 Thomas: What, what show did she go on where people were responding in that way?

0:28:44 Eli: No. She went on Twitter, she went to Twitter.

0:28:45 Thomas: Oh. Twitter. Oh.

0:28:46 Eli: And she talked about hashtag one and three, she talked about her experience and

0:28:46 Thomas: Okay. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Well, it's really bad. If you talk about abortion, it is terrible.

0:28:53 Eli: She got it, she got a person who took a picture of her, uh, that she had taken of herself in her orange vest when she's an abortion clinic escort, and they put it on an anti-abortion, like, Facebook group. And one of the comments was like, that red, that orange vest looks like a target to me. And it's like, that's fucking crazy. And look, look, I'm, listen, I don't know. The truth of the matter is I really don't know. It could be the same for men and women. It really could. I just, I don't have a study, right? I can't present data that's. And so anyone who tweets at me and goes, you're wrong, it's equal men and woman, you're just in my Google Google bubble, maybe, but I'm telling you, as someone who, yeah, I don't believe it. I it's

0:29:32 Thomas: I do not believe it. Yeah, it just... I have too many prior experiences to tell me that it would be otherwise. I mean, the idea that it is going to somehow... Yeah, harassment is way worse for women everywhere else, but on the internet, it does not equal. I just do not buy it. I do not. And I will have to look at... If anyone has the links, you can send them to me. I will look look at it, I guess, but I'm not buying it. And so how did I get launched into this? Yeah, I understand that. I think what you're saying about PZ Myers, I do get that he gets so many tweets that, I don't know, maybe he's just in this auto block function. But I mean, it's not like his mentions, now that he's blocked me, his mentions are going to be fine. He's like cleared.

0:29:48 Eli: Right. And sure.

0:30:16 Thomas: You know, it is Always going to nonstop. So if he's even looking at it, he has to at least be looking at it, because we're both going to agree that he's not blocking people who say, "Yeah, you're right, PZ." Like, that's not happening.

0:30:15 Eli: Yeah, absolutely. And again, right.

0:30:27 Thomas: So he's at least looking at the content. And if he sees that the content is not someone harassing him, he doesn't even have to respond. He doesn't even have say, oh, well, I disagree, whatever. Just don't block me. Like I might want to follow his tweets. How about for him? I might wanna read his latest article that he tweets.

0:30:27 Eli: No, right,

0:30:46 Thomas: Like, Like, how about that? Like, I don't get it.

0:30:41 Eli: Right well, and we've lost, and this is the pro and this a really, really left problem. I think it's not fair to say that this is a left. This is a social justice warrior problem, you know, or social justice activists, whatever you want to call yourself. I like SJW, but right.

0:31:00 Thomas: Oh, it happens even worse. Hold on. Yeah, here's an aspect I was going to bring up because I think it's particularly bad in this case because I'm someone who wants to meet PZ halfway whenever I can, especially when he talks about harassment of women online. Like, I'm with him in a lot of that stuff. I'm not going to claim that I'm with them on every particular detail of what he tweets or whatever, but I'm I'm a person who's a person of color, myself. I don't know exactly how to say it, but I would say at least semi-pro social justice. Like, I wouldn't say, it gets ugly because you say, you know, I'm pro social justice or whatever, and then you get tarred with a bunch of, you know, crap that people are going to put on you, but I'm, yeah.

0:31:40 Eli: So you think it's okay for people to go into someone's house and murder them in their sleep just because they tweeted at Anita Sarkeesian? Yeah, man. I can't believe you saw that. That's so smart. You saw through the lines.

0:31:45 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah I would, let me just, I'll, okay. I'll summarize it by I saying I am receptive to a lot of PZ's points, a lot of them, more than I would say a lot of atheists are. There are a lot of atheics who just hate him and won't listen to anything he says, unless he's talking about biology or atheism. I'm very receptive to a lot of the stuff he'd say, and he even blocked me for slightly disagreeing with him. And I will also say that I talked a lot of crap that I think is justified about Gad Saad, or however you pronounce his name, because he blocked to me for like one tweet. And he's someone who's all the way on the other side. This isn't just the SJW problem because Gad did the same thing. He wants an echo chamber where he can make stupid anti-SJW jokes that aren't even funny and completely miss the point.

0:32:41 Thomas: He can make those jokes all he wants. And if anyone says, hey, that doesn't make sense, not even like, oh, F you, someone who is just saying, hey this joke you're making, that does not make sense because of this this, and this, he has to block that person. It's a problem everywhere, I think. So what I'm saying is there are a lot of people who want to just blame it. Oh, regressive left, reggressive left. I don't know. It is a problem anywhere. Gad is one of the biggest proponents of the regressive left thing, and he's blocking me too. So it's frustrating.

0:33:14 Eli: And I would say, I would add to it this, the biggest loss that we suffer from this sort of policy is that we lose the ability to change your minds you know we lose the ability and I'm lucky in two ways. I'm super stupid and I'm surrounded by super smart people so and who disagree with me on a ton of shit, a ton. I have super right right wing bros and I have suber duper left wing brose and either way I'm fighting with them and I'm learning and the moment you shut that conversation down in any way you've lost the ability to learn. And that's too bad because PZ, you know, presumably, I don't know. I don't know. PZ is wrong, right?

0:33:23 Thomas: Yeah. I think

0:33:56 Eli: He's wrong about this thing. He's factually inaccurate about this thing. And he could now know more true things about the universe. He could look at what you said and he could learn and be smarter and he couldn't prove and be a better leader in whatever community he's a leader in. And, he can't do that. And I will say, I think the cause of it comes from people, people who confuse disagreement and harassment on every side of that issue. So, you know, my issue is, is my stance has always been, I don't block anybody. I try to interact with everyone who writes to me, especially if you email me or message me and you're going to get them

0:33:57 Thomas: He is. Yeah, right,

0:34:32 Eli: Because Twitter's just limited. So I'm just going to be like, I Don't think that, okay. That that's a good right.

0:34:33 Thomas: Right. Right. Right. Sometimes. I do say, hey, I just, this is too long for Twitter, can't do it. But I'm not gonna block the person.

0:34:42 Eli: Right. I don't block. I'll just be like too much for Twitter, email Eli Bosnick. Um, So that's definitely an issue. I would say that what we can do is we can start by changing the way we address people online. Start acting in a way that means you want to open up a conversation and stop confusing that Twitter trolls are me. Me, because that's one of the biggest things. And look, we'll, I'm sure at some point we'll get with the Cogdiss boys and chat about this. But like, one of the biggest things I got is like, those are just people trying to get their goat, free speech, yada, yadda. And it's like, no man, when you make a kid kill themselves because of what you commented on their Reddit post, or if you know, someone is afraid for their life and goes and stays in a hotel room because of the joke Twitter page you created with a death threat on it just to quote unquote get their joke, you are not me. People have to download the garbage I say, you gotta go on iTunes.

0:34:43 Thomas: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Subscribe.

0:35:44 Eli: GAM download, you gotta wait for the internet and then you gotta get to it I don't Yeah, exactly. The people I disagree with the most in the world, and please go through my Twitter and call me out on every moment that I'm wrong on this, I have been been wrong a couple of times, I've behaved badly and I've apologized for that, but the people I disagree with the most, the only thing you will ever see me send them is let's have a conversation.

0:35:46 Thomas: Yeah. You gotta dial up Yeah.

0:36:10 Eli: And that's what we need to start doing because then

0:36:10 Thomas: And I do that all the time too, and it's amazing, what frustrates me with it is I bet you get a lot of times where they just don't. I mean, a lot of times they do.

0:36:12 Eli: Oh Never. Right.

0:36:19 Thomas: But but a lot of times on for me, I'm like, hey, let's I have a podcast like come just talk about it. Like I'm not even and this will be this is not PZ. I don't ask people who are like have a giant following. Oh, just come on my little podcast, you know, because that that kind of looks like I'm just trying to get a big guest on my podcast, but I'll ask people who don't have any following. They're just random people on Twitter. I'll say, hey just come on. We'll talk about this. We'll just do a quick chat. They almost never do it. People are not interested in actually engaging arguments. They just want to say a bunch of stupid things or like, yeah, yeah.

0:36:44 Eli: Right. And and Yeah. If you're not engaging arguments, you're part of the problem, you should know you're a part of the problem and you're keeping the conversation from happening and you are keeping otherwise otherwise smart people in a poisonous bubble where they can't learn. So if you disagree with everything I say, I'm telling you right now the best way to educate me is not to tell me you hope my girlfriend gets raped because that person has they could they could know that they could know the secret to physics and they're never getting that through to me.

0:37:14 Thomas: Wait, that's not going to work? Yeah.

0:37:21 Eli: Never ever and my response to that was like hey, I live in Manhattan, we should get in a fist fight sometime, like that's that's all I had to say To that. I was like, let's meet so I can punch you to sleep. That was, that's all. I have to say that's which there's the line in my heart and you've crossed it.

0:37:28 Thomas: What else can you say? Yeah, you're like, I wish my dad were still alive. Oh, Wait, that's a reference to shoeshine, sorry, okay, go listen to Shoeshire for that reference, because Eli's dad was a, was a fighter, um, Yeah, I, I totally agree, and and I just think I, I do see your side of it, that you were saying, where if more people were engaging instead of just doing these simple attacks, then the, the situation we'd be in wouldn't demand as much blocking. And I do get that, like I I understand, especially for people like Sarkeesian, I'm not going to, I haven't done any opinion on that on this show. I don't

0:37:39 Eli: Yeah, exactly. Oh, I do. I do and you'll get it. Yeah, right.

0:38:11 Thomas: Really, I've gotten into it. But I will say that no matter what, she obviously gets just an absolute ton of harassment, even if she were totally wrong. That's the thing I always say. Even if these feminists that people hate on so much, even if they were 100% exactly wrong on everything they've ever said, what, is that the response? Is the response to threaten to rape them and do all these, is that what is a good idea? Like, there's nobody that I do that to. There's nobody, 9-11 deniers, like there's no, no truthers. I don't threaten to rape them. Like I don't threat, and it happens a lot and people brush it off. And I think that's where the divide comes in.

0:38:18 Eli: Yeah, right.

0:38:51 Thomas: There are people like me, and I think you, Eli, who, who say, hey, that's unacceptable behavior. I take that somewhat seriously. I understand sometimes threats are going to be hyperbolic. I understand people don't always mean like, oh, I'm definitely going to commit violence. I get that. But it's not nothing.

0:39:07 Eli: Oh, I think 99% of the time they don't mean it.

0:39:10 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, but it's still not acceptable. It's not good. It's not the response to someone who's wrong. It's just idiotic. It's animalistic. It's not something that causes any good. I don't care how mad you are. That doesn't do any good yet. Yes, you might have the freedom to do that. I'm not saying you don't have the technical freedom to do some of these things, but it's not good. I have the freedom to do a lot of stuff that I shouldn't do. I don't understand it. The camps are almost like people who sympathize with people who are receiving constant threats and people who don't.

0:39:28 Eli: Right, right. And the thing is, it's so hard to get your mind changed when the other side is doing something next level horrific. You know, I have had to have Gamergate explained to me by my gentlest, sweetest, right-leaning friends because I have such a hard time dealing with threats towards women. It's my own bias, my own personal experience. I don't like it. I shut right down. My whole brain shuts off. Click. I can't hear what that person said because it was surrounded with threats. Towards a lady. That's my only bias. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's wrong. I mean, it's just who I am as a person.

0:39:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:40:24 Thomas: And I'll even say that would be it for anyone. I understand it might be be more sensitive toward women. But I'm even saying I don't support that for anyone. No matter how much you disagree with them, it just doesn't make any sense to do. Yeah. Sorry.

0:40:36 Eli: Right. It's Not useful. And it's, it's just, it's, I, and all I can say is, look, I don't think there's any Twitter, like I said, I don't think any Twitter trolls listen to your show. You know, the interactions I had with Atheistically Speaking listeners were like, good sir, let's find some tea and chat, and I was like, yeah, man, let's do this, let's make this happen, you know, nothing but politeness and some disagreement, and also a ton of gratitude from people who are like, thank you for saying this, no one's talking about this, but You should know that if you are voicing disagreement at someone, they're currently, we currently live in a culture where they're just bombarded with hatred.

They're bombarded with hatred and if you're part of that problem, if you just write, you know, and again, if you disagree with something I say on here and you're just like, you're full of shit, liar, you don't believe you, whatever, you just shutting me down. You're not teaching me anything and you should know that the people who got on Twitter and got on Facebook and gently pointed out the things I said that were wrong and helped me understand concepts better and help me have a better, and we'll chat about all that, I'm sure,

0:41:02 Thomas: Yeah,

0:41:38 Eli: At some point. Right, exactly. Those people, those people are part of the solution. You are part of the problem, and you have to remember, generationally, you will turn out to be wrong.

0:41:38 Thomas: Later date. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

0:41:51 Eli: Generationally, the progress, the progressive, quote-unquote, side will always be proven to be wrong, just because it's young people. People with your opinion will die, so you haveと change their opinion.

0:41:58 Thomas: Proven to be right you mean? You said wrong I think you mean. You said wrong, I think you mean they'll always be proven to be right, right?

0:42:05 Eli: Right, yeah, no, Oh, sorry. I meant they'll always be proven right.

0:42:06 Thomas: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's, yeah, maybe there'll be things here and there, but yeah, totally. Well, I Think we've covered it pretty much. I just want to say that it just is mostly unfortunate because I really want to be, I want to Be in the camp of sensitive to harassment of women, sensitive to feminists. I do. And I consider myself in that camp, but PZ has such a bad attitude about it that it really turns me off and it makes it impossible to engage. I just bring it up because you said, oh, I imagine he would say such and such and such. He would never say any such thing. The man has never admitted to being wrong. He's never said, Oh, that's an interesting thing. All he has is angry, angry, angry rhetoric for anyone he disagrees with. Sometimes I disagree with that person too, but it doesn't mean that rhetoric is the best way to do it.

0:42:08 Eli: Yeah,

0:42:58 Thomas: It's It's just some weird entertainment thing. And if that's what he wants to be, fine. But it's not going to change many people's minds. It's just irritating, but okay. All right. Well, thanks so much for coming on, Eli. I appreciate having another talk. And this time, I'm hoping you won't get all the emails you got from last time.

0:43:15 Eli: Exactly. Hey, if I get another thread, I'm going to know that it's from your listeners now. So it's on you.

0:43:18 Thomas: Oh, you're right. Yeah, you should go on another show really quickly. Go on a really like bad show. Find some show that's terrible and go on it.

0:43:27 Eli: I'm gonna be on Joel Osteen's podcast saying these exact same words the same day this episode comes out. So don't worry about it.

0:43:33 Thomas: Oh man. Yeah. Thanks so much. And of course you can find him on GAM, that's, uh, that's Law'd Awful Movies. You can find them scathing atheists from time to time. And, but I don't need to tell you folks these things. You all already listened to that.

0:43:45 Eli: All right. Awesome. Thanks for having me on. The email was trollish. Bye.

0:43:46 Thomas: Yeah, all right. See ya.

0:44:09 Thomas: And there you have it, another fun discussion with Eli, and I think we won't have to correct any factual errors, I don't think. Just a shot at Eli. So when next we speak, my guests will be Matt Dillahunty and Blake Genta. Fantastic conversation that we had, I'm so excited. And I want to remind you that that will be Thursday's episode and a part two on Monday. But if you'd like that part two right away, don't forget to go to patreon.com/atheist and check it out early. That's one of the good benefits of being a patron. It's a way I like to try to give back to the very supportive audience that I have. Thank you guys so much for that. And I hope you enjoy that early content several days ahead of when everyone else gets it. So just a reminder, I'm really excited. At Thursday's show, Matt Dillahunty. It's so cool. It may someone I've want to have for a very long time and Blake is great Christian interlocutor for him to discuss stuff with. So couldn't be better. I'm so excited about it. I will see you then. Then.