AS207: Abortion Debate Criticisms, Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 207, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. And all that said, we're just going to get to part two of my discussion with Jayme and Lee. Here we go.

0:00:54 Guests: If somebody else, if the state, fate is making a determination on what's okay for a woman to determine with her body, then she no longer has sovereignty over her body. And to me, sovereignty is the thing that trumps personhood. Yeah.

0:01:10 Thomas: Well, if that's the case, then, it really doesn't matter if there's a danger, right? I mean, if the position is the mother has sovereignty, so at any time in the abortion, sorry, in the pregnancy, the mother can have an abortion for any reason whatsoever. Is that right?

0:01:28 Guests: I don't have a problem with that, but I also, you know, don't, I, I don't advocate for that because to me, I'm all about what's practical and, and you know, compassionate and kind, um, and to me, really setting ourselves up so that people can have early abortion so that those conflicts, you know, critical situations don't arise to nearly the same number. You know, it just is much less frequent to have those sorts of problems. So I'm all about what's practical.

0:02:01 Thomas: Yeah, I think you're right. And I do want to say that I should emphasize that more in the future. In future debate, I should emphasize, look, something like, what is it, 80? I'm forgetting now, but something like 80 to 90% of all abortions are super, super early. And to the point where it's, I mean, Tyler would still say it's a person, but I think it is important to make sure we're all in reality. And we're not thinking that every woman is having abortion of a, you know, eight month pregnancy all the time. So I think it is important to state those kinds of facts to put it into perspective, um, to be pragmatic, kind of like you're saying.

0:02:36 Guests: And many, many later abortions are because women are unable to access early abortion. I

0:02:45 Thomas: Right. And I, but I think it, it is crucial, uh, and it's enough for Tyler, for the purpose of debate to say there are some abortions later and there, and there are Some that are merely because the, for whatever reason, There's no danger to the mother. It's just their decision. And so in those cases, he would still say that that's murder. And I guess I wonder, how do you respond to that? If you're not talking, so if personhood doesn't matter, are you just saying the woman has the right to abort the pregnancy at any time? Doesn't really matter when, because she has the Right to Make That Decision. What do you think, Jayme? Let's go back to Jayme for a while.

0:03:27 Guests: Think something that always, when I hear, you know, abortion is murder, abortion is murder. Abortion is murder in these kind of discussions. I always think about the fact that when we talk about choice and being pro-choice and being on the side of choice, it seems like, oh, I'll pick vanilla or chocolate. I'll choose to have a baby or not have a baby, but it's really often an agonizing choice. And there are lots and lots of women who have to have very wanted children aborted at three months or four months. And I have a, I'm

0:04:09 Thomas: Is that not covered by, I are you saying for health reasons or what, right?

0:04:13 Guests: Saying for any number of reasons, maybe it's, I have a very, very close family member. And this is the reason that this issue is a big deal for me, who had to have an abortion at seven months because there were several internal organs that never formed and she wanted that baby. It was her third child. She's a mom that had to have an abortion. And we don't think about moms that have to have abortions.

0:04:42 Thomas: Yeah.

0:04:43 Guests: We think about, like, you know, slutty prom queens. And there's a judgment when we say that killing any fetuses is murder, and I, when I hear Tyler say any, any, any killing a child is murder, I can see the friend, the face of my friend, just tears running down her face when she had to make the decision because she couldn't, you know, there, they waited so long because they had hope and they waited so long, they thought there might be a chance that that maybe it would start to develop, or that maybe they could get a donor organ.

And to talk about abortion as murder, and, you know, as a simple black and white philosophical issue in front of people who desperately wanted their child, and now you're telling them, or Tyler, in this case, is telling them you murdered that baby that you wanted when they did everything in their power to bring that child into life, especially if it's a choice where the mother's health is at risk, if the baby could live but the mother is going to die, and that mom has to choose, and maybe she does have two other kids at home, and you're telling her that she has to either murder her baby, which might be how she thinks of it, or leave her other two kids without a mother. Well, what's the moral choice there?

0:06:17 Guests: Couching it in terms of murder in that way just makes it so much more cruel and so much more hard for everyone involved. And that's what I would honestly say to Tyler. If he, you know, wants to have that discussion, maybe he's right. But, you now, how does it help so many women that have to make this choice? It's not an easy choice. I mean, for some women, it might be. I can't speak for everyone. But I think when you're talking about this, it's better to err on the side of kindness and compassion and not calling people murderers. I don't know. Yeah.

0:07:07 Thomas: I, I don't know, the problem with that approach, and, and, uh, I certainly have, believe me, I have all the sympathy in the world for it. I just want to say that first off, again, Tyler would say if it's the mother's life is in danger, he's actually okay with it, so just to clarify his position on that, um, and then the, as for your, your, uh, did you say, say it was a friend or family member, I forget. Family member? Family member situation. Man, very sorry to hear that. That's awful. I wonder, I would be curious to hear what his position on that is. Now, I think that almost falls into a similar category of maybe like end of life care, where maybe someone is clinically dead, or, you know, that sort of situation.

0:07:56 Thomas: I I wonder if it falls more into that where, yes, they maybe could have gone through with some sort of pregnancy, but the child wasn't, you know, was already, I don't know the medical situation they were in, but I would be curious, like, if the child is actually just can't survive, I do not know that Tyler would say, you know, it is murder to abort at that point because there is, yeah,

0:08:17 Guests: But When he, you're absolutely right, you're very right, and I, I, but I don't know, when, when you, when you set it up so that it's, you know, murder, then miscarriage is manslaughter, and it's It just feels very, like, like a, an easy way to take the best of intentions and make them the worst nightmare for everyone involved. It seems like a very slippery slope towards damnation. That's

0:08:54 Thomas: Maybe I will go back to Lee, but am not sure what the solution, I mean, if that is his position and he really looks at those people, he's thinking of, you know, mothers who willingly abort for no health concern, if, if in his mind and other pro-lifers like him, it's not just him, if in their mind they are thinking this is a person killing another person intentionally, I mean, I don't know how to translate your argument to them, you know what I mean, like, what, because for them it just is murder. I mean, it's like saying, don't call just a regular murder a murder because it's offensive to somebody. I'm not totally sure how to translate that to him. Do you know what I mean?

0:08:54 Guests: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

0:09:38 Guests: I have some, I have Clarity.

0:09:41 Thomas: Sure, go ahead.

0:09:42 Guests: I have, I think some clarity on that, and that is that you can accept, I can accept that they have that position, that this is murder. My big concern is not, it's not what in their mind their conclusion is of someone's action. My big point is, are they working to take the right of abortion away? Because if they are, that's the thing that's very concerning to me. Because are they saying that they think that there should be a fetal rights court, a pregnancy tracking department of the U.S.

0:10:28 Guests: That should, all women have to register their pregnancies and they are tracked and evaluated of what's going on? And women have to supplicate to make any decision that might create a termination? Are they saying that, you know, women should be jailed, such as they are being right now? You know, that's one of the other things, is that there are examples right now from this loss of women's rights. In 2010, Christine Taylor of Iowa was charged with attempted fetal homicide after she fell down the stairs. She went to the hospital and she was reported for trying to end her pregnancy. She was investigated and charged even though the fetus side laws only apply in the third trimester and she was in her second. So the fact is that that's happening now. Is he in agreement with that?

0:11:23 Guests: You You know, well, so that's my point is that's what's really important is not whether you think it's murder or not, not whether you think It's right or wrong is what action are you taking? And if you're not taking any action, I really don't care.

0:11:23 Thomas: No, he wouldn't be in agreement with that.

0:11:41 Thomas: Well, yeah, okay. I mean, I understand that might be okay for you in a conversation. For me, I'm interested in discussing the philosophy of it. And if people don't want to hear that, that's, I mean that's totally their prerogative. They don't have to listen.

0:11:54 Guests: Well, no, I mean, it's not it's Not that it's important to me. I think that the discussion is important. But I think that instead of saying, is it a person isn't a person saying, what would you like? Do you think that a fetal rights court is correct. Is it right to have women register their pregnancies? Is it a situation where you think that a woman should be jailed if she uses drugs and the baby comes out damaged? Or how about this woman who just very recently, Anna Yoka, 2015 in Tennessee, was charged with attempted murder for an attempted coat hanger self-induced abortion. When she went to the hospital for uncontrolled bleeding. She was investigated and charged. So should women who go to the hospital after trying to self-induce, should they be, I mean, what do you do with a person like that? What would he do?

0:12:08 Thomas: Right. Right.

0:12:46 Thomas: So what if we have this discussion with Tyler?

0:12:51 Guests: No, no, no. I'm done. Sorry. Yeah.

0:12:55 Thomas: I agree. I actually think you're right. It's very useful to ask him these things. I think that is a component in any pro-life debate I have in the future. I want to just keep in mind that there are time limits to things like this, and we did talk for a couple hours, but I think it's important enough that I should probably emphasize that. Like, look, here's what the real life consequences are. I could even tell someone like Tyler, let's assume your argument's right. Let's assume it is murder or whatever. What do you see as the actual application, as the actually practical application of that philosophy? Is it, like you're saying, is it so abortion is illegal? To what extent do we need to invade a woman's privacy to see about that?

0:13:44 Thomas: I mean, do we need to have a panel review doctors' decisions to save women's lives with life-saving abortions? Like, I think that is very valuable. And I think that's something I'm taking from this. So I appreciate that criticism. I think I think that could be very helpful. But sure, sure.

0:14:00 Guests: That was the only thing I found missing from your previous discussion was just to, you know, take it one step further.

0:14:06 Thomas: And let me also say, I'm even I'm even somewhat convinced that maybe I ought to say a few things that I think are obvious from time to time. Because that really, honestly, honest to God, that doesn't exist. That is what it is. Some things I find so obvious, I just don't say. I actually, I don't even listen to shows that I agree with because I just do not care about hearing things I agree with. So, that is kind of, it is a weird personality thing of mine. But I think it is, we are in such a state of affairs in this country as regards, you know, the abortion debate, that it might be worth it. It might be a time where I need to sit and say, you know what, let me say some things just to make sure we're all clear. I've said on record on another show long before all this, that I will never support any Republican because of their abysmal view, their idiotic view on Planned Parenthood.

0:15:01 Thomas: It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And I really, I should, maybe I just need need to say that. Like, I probably should. But yeah.

0:15:08 Guests: Well, I think that was something that like, that might've been in my second or third email to you too, is that, yeah, Yeah, I think you do need to occasionally say stuff that's obvious, even if it's obvious. But especially on a show like your show, where I don't agree with everything that you say, and I usually don't disagree with everything your guests say, or the reading that you're reading from, that when you get people that don't agree with you, it is more important to say those obvious things, because it was, you know, an atheist debater saying the obvious thing for the 500th time that was the penny dropping for me. And you have such a big listenership that, you know. Sometimes when you say the obvious things, it might be a new obvious thing. It might not be obvious for everybody.

0:15:48 Thomas: Yeah, fair enough. I accept that. I think that's a good idea. I'll try to do that. Now, let's say, sure, go ahead.

0:16:13 Guests: Can I also, I'm sorry. Yes.

0:16:16 Thomas: No, go head.

0:16:16 Guests: So the other thing that I think is very important is to to say, you know, here's an area where I see that your outcome, your actions are inconsistent with that position of personhood. And so, you know, just really very quickly, they're not protesting in vitro fertilization. They're not shaming the parents of those in vitro children. And if they were logically consistent, they would be doing the same action that they would do outside of an abortion clinic.

0:16:49 Guests: They're not saying, I don't, yeah, I just, I'm sorry.

0:16:49 Thomas: Can I I jump in on that real quick? Uh, just for Tyler specifically, sorry, what? I just wanted to jump in before I lose track of it for that issue specifically. Good example. And I think it is something that you're right in. I don't hear that. Uh, I will say I asked Tyler specifically on that. I can't remember if it was the show or later on, I think It was the Show. And he said that anytime you have, uh, any number of, cause I think what you're referring to is in vitro. They, They, they usually fertilize several eggs and then only keep like one or, or, you know, however many, is that right?

0:17:05 Guests: No.

0:17:23 Guests: Right. But I have like three or four and I just like to run through those because some of these, yes, I've heard the in vitro argument from others before, but some of These, I really never hear anybody talk about. So there, there, I will warn you, there are a lot of people that protest at in vitro fertilization clinics and at in vitro storage facilities. And it's, it's a huge issue. Okay. So maybe, maybe that's when, you know, that's a little bit more obvious, but the ones that also, you know, they don't do is, you know, also the fetal research, they take advantage of the fetal research that has saved millions of lives. I mean, if you just look at polio vaccine has saved maybe even billions of lives. And they don't say, well, I'm not going to take advantage of anything that came from fetal research. Any advantages, I won't take advantage of it. I will choose to forego those health benefits for myself.

0:17:27 Thomas: Okay, sure. Go ahead.

0:18:25 Guests: And then, like I was saying before, is that they have no positive action. So here's a comparison that I really like to use. I don't know if you know anything about MRAs, men's rights, they like to rail against feminists, but they have no positive actions of their own, no positive engagement. They're not, you know, working to try and right wrongs that they are complaining about. And the same thing with these pro-life people. They have no foundations for raising funds to research and reduce miscarriage. Miscarriage is a huge issue for pregnancy loss. Something over 50% of all fertilizations are miscarried.

0:19:12 Guests: So where are their big foundations? If they're so concerned about personhood, where are the big foundations that are hugely funded to reduce natural miscarriage? I've never heard that from anybody. And also, how about, you know, let's use some imagination and go forward and say, hey, maybe there's an opportunity for people who want to be pregnant, women who want to have children, but are unable to conceive, that maybe we could do fetal transplants. Where's the research on that? Nothing. There is no imagination going into how to promote their ideas. It's all about how do they take away from somebody else. Results

0:19:59 Thomas: Interesting. Okay. So Jayme, did you have any thoughts on any of the other ones of those issues that she brought up?

0:20:03 Guests: I, uh, I'll just let that go. I probably wouldn't go that far. Uh, no, I'll just go. No, of

0:20:12 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Well, interesting. Yeah. I think those are some, I think what you're hitting on, Lee, is there's a lot of the pro-life movement and it could be very significant. I think it's up for, you know, people's personal opinions how significant. That is very misogynistic and is very unduly focused on the wrong things simply because they want to control women. It's interesting with someone like Tyler who did say, I'm fully in support of birth control, I'm for, he said a number of things that normally pro-lifers don't say, which focused the conversation I had a little bit more in the sane direction of, okay, I'll take you at your word that you're not just anti-woman.

0:20:58 Thomas: And that's, you know, that's up for debate. That's a decision I made. But I, so I see what you're saying. I think it applies. Would you agree that maybe that applies to the wider debate, but not as much to Tyler? Or do you think that all those apply to Tyler?

0:21:15 Guests: Of course it applies to Tyler, because he's, he's so strong in that position, but he's not, he's now saying, hey, you know, let's, let's take a an action to to save these lives over here. He's only focused on saving lives in one area, and he's completely dismissing the lives that are lost elsewhere. And, and, you know, why is it, I mean, I guess the question is, you could ask them, all right, you're pro birth control. Are you calling your legislatures and saying, hey, did you hear about that Colorado initiative, a five-year initiative from 2009 to 2015, where they gave free long-term birth control to all citizens of Colorado?

0:22:08 Guests: It was funded by Warren Buffett's wife's foundation. And, you know, so it was privately funded, and it saved, it reduced abortion by 42%. They were, when they saw the numbers, when the researchers saw the numbers, they were astonished how much it reduced abortions. Yet the legislature there did not continue funding after that grant was done, and they're scrambling now for funds, and there are no pro-life people advocating for funds or donating funds to continue that in the face of the Republican agenda to turn it off. So saying that, all right, I'm pro birth control, unless you're taking action to advocate for it, that statement is meaningless to me if you're advocating against, you know, abortion rights.

0:23:06 Guests: So you have to, where are you advocating? You can say you're okay with birth control, but if you're advocating against abortion, then you either have to be advocating for birth control or you're not really as much for it as you're saying.

0:23:25 Thomas: Well, outside, yeah, interesting. I, I think there's a lot of separate things going on there. So for Tyler, I mean, I actually have a lot of respect for him saying he even said he's pro free birth control access for women, free women's health care. Like he went well farther further than I think most pro-lifers go. Now, let's assume we're not talking about Tyler and we're talking about another pro-life. It is interesting that they're most of them are anti birth control. Let's let's say let's just for the sake of argument, talk about someone who is anti birth control, and anti-abortion. Now, if they're anti-birth control for different reasons, I mean, their reasons behind being anti-birth control, admittedly, are terrible. I'm not saying they have any good reason for it.

0:24:10 Thomas: They're stupid. But they're religious reasons that they hold. Now, assuming they hold those beliefs for separate reasons, I'm not sure is it a valid criticism to say birth control reduces abortion, therefore you must be pro-birth-control?

0:24:26 Guests: Why not? It's proven. Proven. Yeah.

0:24:28 Thomas: Well, but they're against birth control for other reasons.

0:24:31 Guests: Arrogance.

0:24:31 Thomas: So it's like if I said, right,

0:24:34 Guests: Birth control, because it's going to cause young ladies to sin and iniquity. It provides the opportunity for sexual intercourse, or Whatever.

0:24:42 Thomas: Right. But all I'm saying, and apologies if this is more philosophizing, but I do think it is valid that you can't really say they have to be in favor of it, because if you took something else I'm against, like if, I don't know, just personal theft or something, and you said, well, theft of property decreases something else, like homicide rates. It's not like you can say, therefore, you have to be for theft of property. You know, like you cannot take something I am against, say it reduces something else I am against, and say I have to be for the first thing. Does that make sense?

0:24:42 Guests: Yeah.

0:25:18 Guests: But I don't completely agree, because I'll just, you know, I have a little, um, you know, a scenario to to kind of, I don't know, run, run the test on. And that is, okay, suppose that you're back in Hitler's Germany, or you know, Poland or whatever, and, um, you're, you know, in another country where you're seeing the trains go, and you know what's happening with those trains, and you say, you know, that is so wrong, that's so awful, I'm able to divert one car, one, one train car off of that train load without anybody knowing, without having, you know, negative consequence, I'm able to divert, divert one boxcar off of that train. Are you going to do it? I hope you would, even if all the rest of them go.

0:25:25 Thomas: All right.

0:26:07 Thomas: Sure. But I think it also, it's not, in that case, though, the analogy doesn't quite work because you're not committing any, you're not doing anything wrong by diverting the car. You're just saying you're trying to save as many as possible. I agree with that. But if it was like, okay, you have to murder a few train station attendants in order to divert one car, then it's a different debate. And it may be a debate that's interesting. I would have to find someone not Tyler. I'd have to find someone who's against birth control and against abortion to debate, okay. To what extent would it be like, what if birth control eliminated every possible abortion. I would be curious, would Catholics then be able to say, look, we need to be pro-birth control because of the greater good? That is an interesting problem, but I think it might be a separate one. Yeah,

0:27:02 Guests: Well, that's looking for life to be too simplistic. And life is complex. Everyone's life is complicated. And one of the things that I have a problem with, with all of these anti-abortion activists is that they just, they present life, and, you know, they act as if life is very simplistic, it's an either/or a choice, and no, nobody's life is that simplistic, and no pregnancy is that simplistic, every pregnancy has some complications, and they just act as if there isn't any complication at all there.

0:27:39 Thomas: I think that's something I could hit on a bit harder in the future, is the fact that virtually any pregnancy is a danger to the mother. So that's a point I could try to make better in the future. What do you think, Jayme?

0:27:51 Guests: Even if it's not a danger, there's a cost to it, there's, you know, a lot of your body changes in ways that will never unchange after after you have a child, and it matters.

0:28:04 Thomas: Well, sure. But I mean, there's also a cost of parenting. So it's I mean. Yeah. And so it's, we have to look at those distinctions. I mean, there's going to be a cost to just having a child, even apart from the pregnancy. And, and so I don't know, is it a justification, if, if you're someone like Tyler who views the fetus as a person, like, is, is that enough of a justification to be able to kill that person or not? Yeah, I don't know. And what's interesting about Tyler is it may be another conversation worth having, but he sees the person who, or sorry, the bodily autonomy thing. I mean, he pointed out, I think, I'm pretty sure it was him that, look, bodily autonomy, that's a right, that's not a right that is in the Constitution.

0:28:06 Guests: Oh, God, yes.

0:28:53 Thomas: That's not a right that really is recognized legally, and he doesn't see it, all these analogies of like donating a kidney or whatever, he doesn't see that as any specific right that we have to bodily autonomy that goes over and above someone else's right to life. So that might be a debate, another way we could argue, you know, like, but I would be curious, personally, I'd be curious to find better arguments for my position on that or for the pro-choice position because I'm not, I'm, not totally sure on those arguments. So maybe that's something I need to research myself.

0:29:31 Guests: Think what I would say to that is just that I don't, it might not be in the Constitution, probably because all of the people who wrote the Constitution were middle-aged men, but even if it were in the Constitution, it would probably be something they would err on the side of not legislating, because it's, it is such a slippery slope, and they, we tend to, in the 14th Amendment, we, we, we decided that legislatures don't get to make medical decisions, people and their doctors do, and I, I think that, yeah, whatever your moral choice is, having come to a moral conclusion and then taking a further step to legislate that moral conclusion, that doesn't always work.

0:30:06 Thomas: Hmm, right. That's interesting. Okay, that's, something I should, I should look into more Because that would be a good response to it, I think. Um, okay, well, let's see, maybe we're coming to a close here, are there any other issues that you didn't get to talk about, either of you, that that you might want to bring up to the table now?

0:30:44 Guests: No, I don't think so. I mean, I really only had that one issue with what was omitted. And I thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify that.

0:30:54 Thomas: No problem, thanks for commenting and thanks for agreeing to come on, I really appreciate it, I think that's, I really want to just do whatever we can to have a discussion about these things, I'm glad you guys didn't shut out the possibility of talking about it, at least, so that's good. Thanks. Thanks for that.

0:31:10 Guests: No, that's what I love about the show is talking about stuff that I don't always agree with.

0:31:16 Thomas: Gotcha. Yeah. How about you, Lee? Anything else you want to talk about?

0:31:16 Guests: Yeah, I just like to say, this was enjoyable. I was a little bit apprehensive, but you made it easy and fun. And the only closing thing that I would like to keep, you know, focusing on is that being pro-abortion, or pro-choice, actually is practical, compassionate, and kind. Mind, and that's what we as humanists want to be, and to me, it's anti-humanist to be anti someone else's abortion rights, but

0:31:57 Thomas: Yeah, I'd be curious what pro-life humanists think about that, because it's definitely a group. So I wonder where their disagreement would be. I guess they'd just say that it's not kind to the fetus, I think would be what they would say.

0:32:13 Guests: You know what makes their decision about my body? Why are they the ones that get to have that opportunity to make the decision? Why can't I make that decision for my own body? Who

0:32:23 Thomas: Right. And I think that goes down to the philosophy of who's rights trump who's in that case. So interesting. Interesting. Well, yeah,

0:32:31 Guests: Gets to make the decision about somebody else's rights? That's the big problem. It's, it's the sovereignty issue, the bodily rights issue. So anyways, but thank you very much. This has been great. I

0:32:42 Thomas: Thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. I will say that I think overall, just to kind of put a conclusion on some stuff of what I've learned, I think I've said, but I mean, I do see the value in bringing up the things, the obvious statements that I I think, are obvious anyway. Especially, like you said, from this show where people are often disagreeing on things, bringing up the stuff that I think is obvious may be useful. Challenging pro-lifers on the actual consequences of illegal abortion, that sort of thing I think could be valuable. But I will say that in the end, I don't think there's anything wrong in principle with with having the discussion on a pro-lifer's terms, as long as I mention some of these things and make sure they're clear so that it doesn't end up sounding too, I guess, just ignorant of women's rights. Does that seem right? Does that sound fair? Or does that go too far? Okay.

0:33:44 Guests: Think it seems fair to me, but I do think there is a small caveat that in the context of the last thousand years of history, we've kind of had every single conversation on the terms of the religious people and on the turns of pro-lifers. And I think there should be a caveat when we talk about a lot of issues, like, okay, we're having it on these terms. Whose terms have we had it on historically?

0:34:14 Thomas: Sure.

0:34:14 Guests: Maybe we should give a little space to the point of view that has had less thousands of years of...

0:34:25 Thomas: Yeah, fair enough. All right.

0:34:26 Guests: You know what? Can I just add to that? It's such a great point that we've had this discussion for thousands of years with always men in the primacy discussing women's bodies and children's bodies as an ownership item and to be able to treat it as an equal situation where women have the same rights. You're right. We need to focus more on the discussion that is being had by people who have not had that power for thousands of years.

0:34:29 Thomas: Sure, thanks for those words. I still, in the back of my mind. I always hear Tyler saying, have the discussion relative to the fetus who never gets to talk. I guarantee you that's probably what he's thinking if he's listening to this right now. But that's why we got to talk about the philosophy of it and try to get, I don't know, I think that's Why We Have to Try to Get Those People on the Same Page, but it may be an impossible task. So I accept different approaches could be better. All right. Thank you guys so so much for coming on. I appreciate you both. And in the future, feel free, don't hesitate to comment or email and, you know, let me know what you think.

0:35:40 Guests: Thanks for listening. Thanks very much.

0:35:42 Thomas: All right. Talk Alright, well, there you have it. I think was a pretty positive experience. I that I think definitely Lee backed away a little bit from how kind of angry her comments were initially, but that's the nature of actually talking to someone, I think. And I also think the same thing may happen if either of my guests were ever to debate someone like Tyler. I think there's a difference between making these arguments on paper and then actually speaking to someone, because when you speak to someone it's a little weird to just try to stick to your own arguments, regardless of what they're saying.

But I think, as I said to them, I may do that to a certain small extent, just to make clear where I stand on things, because I think that is important, I think that's a good lesson out of all this, but I also stand by my decision to try to engage Tyler on how he was arguing and the way he was arguing, so. But I could see, I also could see trying to get a bit more offensive with some of my arguments, that's, it's not really my my style, I don't think.

I tend to want to just listen and then try to poke holes in what someone's saying, or at least try to answer their questions in a way that makes sense that they maybe haven't thought of. So that's what I generally tend to do, but it's who knows. Everyone's the armchair quarterback, but I want to thank my guests again for coming on and clearing that up and kind of making alternate views known.

0:37:39 Thomas: Things that I didn't necessarily say to Tyler. I think that is important and I'm glad they came on and I'd love to talk to them again anytime. And Alright, that said, I think I'm going to wrap it up for this episode, so I will see you on Thursday.