AS201: Tommentary; Critical Comments

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:30 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 201, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Well, yeah, I didn't make much of a big deal of it, but yeah, this is two years now of the show. Almost two years, obviously. It's a little shy of two years.

But I always remember, because the first episodes we did, I think some of them involved atheism and the holidays, and how to spend Christmas, you know, with family, and how to deal with different holidays as atheists and stuff, and I always think about it around this time of year, and I can't believe it. It's gone by so quickly, two years of this show just about.

All right, so, today, I've got some interesting stuff planned, it's been, this is the first time in a while that I've been able to do the Tommentary that I intended to do every week, which, I mean, I'm roughly still staying to the same schedule, it just a little different when things happen, but I'm still doing the same ratio of Tommentaries to interviews, which I like, because I really want to get the chance to comment on stuff, but this is first one where there hasn't either been a huge show I'm trying to react to, or a shooting.

0:01:41 Thomas: And I laugh, but it's kind of true. I mean, it's been the first time that there hasn't been a big major news event that I had to talk about. And that's a good thing. So I've got a few things to say, a few and apologies. One is a pretty dated story, but I really wanted to talk about it and just never got a chance. But it's something not everyone saw and it's not really time sensitive, so I think it'll be good. And some miscellaneous and sundry items, of course. So with that, I think I'll play my Tom and Terry music.

0:02:18 Thomas: So this is a story I saw a while ago. It looks like it was from the beginning of November. So yeah, it's been almost a couple months, but it really stuck with me. I wrote it down then immediately and thought I need to talk about this, and then I just never got the chance. But it's called Heaven Over Hospital. You may have seen this. Some parents, it says parents honor dying child's request. This is so, oh man, there is so much going on here. I mean, I mean, it... So talk about the, you know, talk about, the importance and the consequences of beliefs, because that's something that I like to talk about. It's something related to the abortion debate that I just had. I really think that there are profound consequences of these beliefs.

0:03:04 Thomas: I don't, there are so many people in this day and age, and I don't know if this is always a problem, but it seems like it, it tends to be a more modern problem of, eh, you know, everyone has their opinion, it's whatever, no big deal. Um, and there's good aspects to it, it's always good to have an attitude that you don't know everything, you're not right about everything. I can appreciate that, I want to try to have that attitude, I'm sure that's a failing I have. I'm, you know, and oftentimes I'm, I'm in my personal life, when I'm interacting with people that I just don't think know what they're talking about, I probably reject their ideas pretty, pretty, uh, frequently. But I think that it would be a good thing to go about life thinking. You don't have everything figured out.

0:03:50 Thomas: There are different ways. There's not one right answer to life. Now, that's fine. However, people take this too far. And I'm sure you've run into the same thing, but I feel like I run into this all the time. And people have an attitude of, well, everyone, you know, it's like Sam Harris's classic example with the moral relativist he was talking about. It's on my mind because he just mentioned it in one of of his recent podcasts, but he mentioned it during his book tour on the moral landscape. There was an ethicist, a medical kind of ethicist who said there's no, you can't ever say people are doing something wrong if they're doing it in the name of religion, essentially. I won't bore you with it because I'm sure you've heard it. That sort of thing. This is where I really think we need to fight that, and I'll tell you why.

0:04:39 Thomas: So there's a girl who is apparently five years old, and she has some sort of illness, and Charcot Marie Tooth disease, kind of, it sounds made up, but, uh, no, it sounds terrible. I guess her, it's a neurodegenerative disease where she, her coughing and breathing muscles are so weak that if she gets any sort of cold or infection, then it can basically be deadly. She can't, just can't breathe well enough. She can, can't, you know, like those muscles are just so stricken by this illness that she could die. And this is, I mean, this is profoundly sad, of course. I mean, this is a five-year-old girl, this, I think she's had it for a while, so it could be since she was three or four. And of course, I don't want to minimize what these parents are going through.

0:05:28 Thomas: I could only imagine if my child had that, I would be devastated, absolutely devastated. But the thing is, the thing that's so rough about this story is the entire crux of it and the thing that caught the headlines because, I mean, this happens every day. We live in a world that's not governed by God and not governed by any divine intervention. It's governed by physics and we are a bunch of flawed flesh bags, wet robots who succumb to illness and have not figured out how to cure every disease. And this sort of stuff happens every Day. This is not abnormal. This this happens every day. What makes this story interesting, and the reason why it was all over the news and you may have seen it, is that the parents are going with, they're going with her decision.

0:06:21 Thomas: Her decision is, if I, actually, let me just read it. Let me read this little tidbit. It's sort of a conversation in the article, I guess. So the girl's name is Juliana. The mother's name is Michelle. So, the mother says, Juliana, if you get sick again, do you want to go to the the hospital again or stay home? And Juliana says, not the hospital. Michelle says, even if that means you will go to heaven if you stay home. And the child says, yes, I hate NT, which is the procedure she has to get done, nasotracheal suction, where a tube is placed down her nose. I hate the hospital, she says. Michelle say, right, so if you get sick again, you want to stay home, but you know that probably means you'll go to Heaven, right?

0:07:07 Thomas: Juliana nods, and then the mom says, and it probably means that you will go to heaven by yourself and mommy will join you later. But I won't be alone, she says. That's right, you will not be alone. Do some people go to heaven soon? Mother says, yes, we just don't know when we go to Heaven. Sometimes babies go to Heaven. The child says, will Alex, her six-year-old brother, go to Heaven with me? Probably not. Sometimes people go to Heaven together at the same time, but most of the time they go alone. Does that that scare you? And the child says, no, heaven is good, but I don't like dying. Mother says, I know, that's the hard part. We don't have to be afraid of dying because we believe we go to heaven, but it is sad because I will miss you so much. And the kid says, don't worry, I won't be alone.

0:07:53 Thomas: Mother say, I know, I love you, etc. And that's basically the end. So, the entire point of this article is to say, is for the parents to say, we're letting our child, you know what, but we could probably save her if she gets another infection. I think it's speculative. She doesn't have an infection currently. But basically, the medical science says the next time she gets a cold or a cough or some sort of anything, really, she's dead meat.

I mean, she just, unfortunately, they might be able to save her, but it's going to be very rough. They have to have her breathing tubes, etc. And the child dislikes this so much, maybe the parents picked up on it, maybe it's hard to say, you know how it started, but the one way or the other, they started asking the child, you know, do you, what do you want to do, it's like, you know, end of life kind of treatment, it's, we would have a do not resuscitate thing except this is a five or four year old child, um. So already right there, it's an interesting debate. It's certainly up for debate. If the question is simply, hey, should we get input of the four-year-old or the five-year old, however, however I keep seeing both, but she is five. I think maybe she was four when it started. Sorry, I keep saying that. I see one part in the article that says four- year-old, the next one says five. Anyway, should, should we let a five-year-old, should we take input from a five year old on her care, on her end of life?

I mean, should, should we factor that into the decision? Now that's an interesting question. I don't know. I mean, on one hand, basically you can't really do that, because then if that were the case, kids would never get shots. Kids would never get a ton of treatments that are incredibly necessary and they are short-term pain or, or short-term discomfort for long-term quality of life and health and all that.

0:09:49 Thomas: And it's, those are the kinds of decisions that obviously parents are better at making and kids shouldn't be trusted with. Kids can't decide what they eat every day. Otherwise they'll be eating brownies for every meal. You know, it's just, it'S simple, very simple on one hand. However, it is an interesting question. Should we take the input? I mean, if, if let's say this, this repeats and she gets a number of more infections and she's just in agony and she hates it. And she's saying, please, she's begging. This is hypothetical. She's begging, please. I don't want to go to the hospital anymore. I can't, I hate this. I Can't do it. She was crying, whatever. And if you're in the kind of case, which she is where it is pretty much inevitable anyway, like it's, it's highly doubtful. She is going to live very long. Wrong, it's possible that you would want to take that into consideration.

0:10:35 Thomas: And it's certainly, I mean, I don't think anyone should prevent you either way as a parent. I mean, that's kind of, it is a really personal thing. It's a really tough thing with a child that young. All this is to say, this is debatable, I think. Slightly debatable. For the most part, I thing the parents should decide, but debatable, maybe you want to get the child's input, that's fine. Now, what isn't debatable to me is, do we want to tell our child a complete fable? Do we want it to be a fable about a child? Do we have to paint our child? Do we wanna give our child completely unsubstantiated fantasy version of what death is, and then ask her, hey, which would you rather have, this horrible throat tube, or this magical land that you're gonna go to where everyone's going to be happy, and then I'll meet you there.

0:11:28 Thomas: Hmm. I wonder which the child is going to pick. I really do. No, I mean, it's, it seems pretty obvious to me where that's going to go. So this is just, it'S hard to even read this because on one hand, I, I I mean ultimately it sounds like it's not the worst decision if she doesn't want to get the care anymore. It sounds like Like, it's not as though if she got this care, she would be fine and she's going to live a long life.

And if she doesn't, she's just going to die. I mean, she probably is going to Die either way very, very soon. And that's unfortunate. It's really sad. And ultimately, so I don't, you know, it'S not like it'S that bad of a decision. However, does it, doesn't it pain you guys to, to sit and hear me read that exchange where we're asking a girl, well, what do you want to do? Sinful, bad, evil hospital thing? Or do you want to go to a magical land of, you know, of milk and honey where everything's great? We're all happy. And by the way, we go to heaven. We don't know. Your brother will be in heaven eventually. We're not clear on those details, like when he's going to be in hell, but he'll definitely be there. By the way. Couldn't the brother be a sinner? Couldn't anyone in this picture turn out to be a sinner?

Like, well, we might see you there. We might not. I don't even know. Maybe we won't be good enough to get into heaven. I'm not sure. Maybe you won't. I don't know how good of a kid you've been. No, none of that enters in, obviously, because we're talking about fairy tales. People are in a really horrible situation, which is someone is dying or potentially dying, which is awful. And Understandably, they're using fairy tales to cope with it.

0:13:06 Thomas: I get it. I still think it's a horrible idea. It's certainly something, never anything I would do. I mean, would you just make up a story? I mean I know that parents believe it. I don't mean to say they don't believe it, but, gosh, isn't it insane? This is why I started off in the beginning. This is why it's so important. These beliefs are so important, they have real effects on your life. I mean, they could have bigger effects than this. They could be the difference. If you're Jehovah's Witness, you could get a totally easy, life-saving blood transfusion, or you could die. You know, that's even worse than this, because you could live a great, healthy life if you get a blood transfusion, in some cases, depending on what it is, or you Could reject it because of an idiotic belief you have, and then you're dead, or your child is dead because you can reject it for your child.

0:14:01 Thomas: It is painful to read this, and it is unreal to me. And here's the thing. I don't think there's any solution to this.

0:14:15 Thomas: Can you blame anyone? I want to know if you guys are interested in the story at all, if it's something... I mean, it really fascinates me.

0:14:25 Thomas: If you're interested in commenting or emailing, I would like to know from you guys, guys, is there a clear bad guy? Because I don't think there's a clear bad guy. I'm not mad at these parents. I think they really believe it. If they were telling some story that wasn't so culturally ingrained, and I like how she knows all the rules to heaven and there's time involved. Is she still going to be a kid in heaven, or is she going to become an adult?

0:14:55 Thomas: Is the mom going to to be younger? How does that all work? I think James Lindsay might have pointed out, was that who it was? Somebody recently on the show pointed out a bunch of the absurdities of heaven and all that. I think it was James Lindsay. And it's so true. I mean, stuff we've all thought of probably, but just like, what age are we in heaven? And who's married to whom? And, you know, like, it's just, it's absolutely absurd. And if you look at Jesus, he doesn't say any of this. None of this, the heaven that's really in the Bible is not this at all. I mean, it's nothing like this. But whatever, this is, I understand it's part of the culture. So to me, I'm not really mad at the parents. See, it'S a free country. We're, you know, we're allowed to believe in our weird versions of reality.

0:15:42 Thomas: Apparently, there's nobody, it would be very Orwellian to have the government tell you, no, you have a bad philosophy here, we need to correct that. I don't believe in that, of course. And given that, you know, we're, it's a free country, we can believe whatever weird things we can, of course we can teach our children whatever weird thing we want to teach them, and, and it's, there's not much you can do about it. I, so really, to me, there's no bad guy, I don't think the parents are doing a bad thing. I mean, any more than if I tell my kid what I believe, if I say, are you, do you want to go to the hospital, or do you, are you going to, I mean, this is the only chance you get. When you die, you're done. There's nothing. So do you want to go back to the hospital, or you want to be done? Let me know.

0:16:27 Thomas: Which, by the way, is what you should do, because that's reality. However, it's still reality as I see it. And I mean, these people see it this way. And that's why. And honestly, same goes for some of this abortion stuff. And obviously, I don't want anyone to commit acts of violence. I really don't. But that's why I just think we need to debate this, this stuff as much as possible and do anything we can to change people's minds, because people can be absolutely convinced of a total falsehood, and it's sort of culturally acceptable. No, actually, it's the opposite of that. It's way more culturally acceptable to be convinced of this falsehood than it is to be like you and I, you know?

0:17:12 Thomas: And how weird is that, that this is the the decision that these parents are, you know, I can't blame them. Can you? But do you want to, listen, do you wanna go to the hospital? The horrible hospital is just nothing but pain? Or do you wannna go to a magical place? Well, yeah, of course. Of course she wants to go to the magical place. I mean, really. At the very least, if there's one thing you could say about these parents, maybe they should treat it with a little bit more of uncertainty. Maybe tell the the child, well, we don't know. You could be gone forever, or maybe you go to heaven. But I mean, kids just don't, you know, they can't understand any of this. So it's hard. There's no clear bad guy to me, but it is just horrifying, just horrifying to me to read this exchange and to really say, okay, we're leaving it to the daughter, but she's in just a virtual reality machine.

0:18:12 Thomas: I to work with, so how can she make a decision? She can't. I mean, she's going to make the obvious decision that I think, I really think anyone would make if you gave them this set of choices. So this was something, this was a story I, again, I just found fascinating, and that's what kills me about it. I don't know that I'm mad at anyone. I just think we need to have more discussions about this, and this is why atheism is somewhat important, or at least, I think this is is why atheism is important. This is a real life consequence to atheism. Because as I've always said, I mean, how different is your life philosophy if you think we're all going to a magical land at the end of life? I mean it just it makes things, it makes decisions you're going to make fundamentally different.

0:18:59 Thomas: They just are, and I really think... We'll be right back. This transcends any sort of, you know, to each his own, think whatever you want. I mean, it kind of transcends that because decisions could affect other people. If you're in charge of the, you know the nuclear codes, do you think this is the only chance we get at life? Or do you think if, you, know, if something goes wrong and we all get nuked that it's okay, we'll meet up, We'll meet up later. I mean, people sometimes think I'm crazy for actually taking these beliefs seriously. And I know that not everyone does. And most, even most religious people, in fairness, I mean even most of them act one One way and then sort of their beliefs are a different thing.

0:19:47 Thomas: I mean, there's cognitive dissonance going on. There's Tom and Cecil going on with them. They got Tom on one shoulder. That's a good metaphor, actually. So in the future in the show, I'm always going to talk about if someone has cognitive disonance, it means they have a Tom and a Cecil on each shoulder, you know, one on each other, and then they're trying to convince them to go either way. Heaven is real. Heaven's not real. Anyway, yeah, this is important. I think atheism, this There are a lot of atheists. You probably know them. You might be one of them who think, well, they let people have religion for what they comforts them. And yeah, I mean, again, it's a free country. I don't believe in enforcing any beliefs on anyone. But I sure do think that, culturally, we ought to do our best to get everyone on the same page, reality-wise.

0:20:33 Thomas: I don't think there should be some government-mandated, you-must-recognize global warming or something, because it gets Orwellian. I mean, it could go the other way, because you never want the Republicans to get in control, and then they're allowed to say, no, we must, government mandates that you all deny climate change. I I mean, that's what's important. What's important is the rule. The rule is, I mean we can't enforce these things. However, culturally, I think we need to fight for it. We need to fighting for people to have an adequate understanding of reality. It's very important I think.

0:21:21 Thomas: Alright, now I need to read a comment that I got. I never have enough time to get into everybody's comments, but this one's very, very important.

0:21:30 Thomas: Crucially important. It's very hard to read because it's quite accusatory, and that hurts, but it's also very important, and I understand where this person's coming from. So, someone commented on the last abortion episodes. I'm gonna read the full thing. I don't want to misrepresent anything here. Unfortunately, you accepted a premise within the first minute that was not warranted. The the premise that you zeroed in on was, is the zygote a person? That is secondary. The primary question is, when is it okay, in caps by the way, when it is okay for one person or the state to force another person to use their body against their will? This bit about allowing killing of one day old baby is moot because the baby is separate from the mother's body and can live without using her anymore.

0:22:22 Thomas: Kind of, but... The abortion is not primarily about the fertilized egg, zygote, fetus, etc. It is about the pregnant person's right to control their own body. That's why it is rightly called pro-choice. It is the pro-pregnant person's choice, no one else's. By the way, I don't have to consider or give a fuck about the person that was using my body against my will. I should be able to just choose to walk away. Way. If society wants to debate what happens next, that's a completely separate subject and has nothing to do with my right to my own body, to own my own buddy. I listened to all three of these podcasts and I must say that despite your profession of being pro-choice, you and Tyler Vela both sound remarkably callous with the absolute life-shattering devastation that abortion denial, has visited on huge numbers of women.

0:23:18 Thomas: Limited choices, limited futures, fear, shame, financial ruination because of mostly men limiting women's rights to control their own bodies. Today, in 2015, a woman is in jail for attempted murder for performing a coat hanger abortion on herself. This encroachment on bodily right is escalating at the same time that abortion access constricts. Doctors, patients, and clinic volunteers endure harassment and risk their lives to get or facilitate legal abortions. Tom, you speak as if this is just an interesting philosophical discussion for you, and proposed outlawing of abortion is mostly about the fetus. For me and every other woman, it is the threat of forced pregnancy, state prosecution, life ruination. This is serious shit, not a fucking word problem for you boys to play with.

0:24:11 Thomas: It's our fucking lives. Treat us with respect. Address women's bodily rights first and last in every conversation on the subject. Finally, yes, our rights can be taken from us every day. Oh, this is more in reaction to my question about human rights, kind of a separate thing, but just a quick sentence. Finally, yes, Our rights can Be taken from Us Every Day. In fact, rights are a concept like democracy or freedom. We have to fight for them. Please fight instead of allowing serious consideration that forced pregnancy is okay, that it is not equal to slavery.

0:24:46 Thomas: Yeah, so that's a pretty hard-hitting comment, and I really appreciate it.

0:24:52 Thomas: I absolutely appreciate it, I am glad for that comment. I have to say, I'm a little unsure how to proceed, but I just, first off, I might as well say I am I am 100% pro-choice. I think abortion should be available to anyone who wants it. I'm totally in favor of that. I think it's...

A little scary that you're doing a little mind reading and saying that you don't know for sure that I'm pro-choice because I'm not talking about it in the way you want me to, I'm sorry about that, that's a little interesting. I tried to make this as clear as I could and maybe I'm wrong to do this, that is certainly an opinion that anyone is free to hold and you might be right, I could be wrong. Wrong, but when I gave that big diatribe in the beginning, that sort of a warning, that I was going to approach this topic in this way, I apologize for the offense it causes.

Because I honestly believe, first off, like I said, I believe abortion should be allowed, but I honestly belief that the comment and the way you expressed it there, I just don't think that will get through to someone like Tyler. I really think that has zero chance of getting through to somebody like Tyler, and I mean, this is a matter of opinion, and you're, maybe I'm wrong on this, I hope I am, but I really the only way, because I agree with you, I don't know the person's name, it's S-E-Z-I-T on the website, says it. I don't know. It's a handle, I guess.

0:26:37 Thomas: I agree with you. I agree with you that the effects of denying abortion are profound. They're horrible. If anyone is in jail for attempted murder for performing a coat hanger abortion, that's obviously horrible. I am completely in opposition to that. That's just just insane. I'm fully with you on this. I really am. I, I have a hard time saying obvious things. I apologize for that. That's, that is something that maybe I need to do better in order to make sure people, like, you very clearly have gotten the wrong impression that I don't fully share everything you're saying there, right? Because I do. And it's my, it's MyFault if I've given you that impression. I don'T mean to say it's your fault or anything.

0:27:23 Thomas: But I, I, I have a hard time stating things that I simply, that are easy and obvious. Like, yeah, obviously someone shouldn't be in jail for attempting an abortion. I mean, that's insane. That's obvious. That's totally, maybe I need to say those. You might be right though. Like I'm, I'm being fully serious. Like maybe I do need to save the, I almost should do, should kind of preface episodes like this with, yeah. Here's some obvious stuff that's totally wrong. Uh, and, and the consequences are horrible. However, I stand by the fact that I don't think your comment will convince Tyler of anything. I really think, and I'm sorry if this causes offense, I really think the only way to get through to people like Tyler, and ultimately this is what you're talking about, I think.

0:28:10 Thomas: I mean, you're talking about men restricting women's rights. You're talking about men restricting abortion. I'm talking about how to get through to those people. I really think the only way you're going to get through to them is to engage them on the beliefs that they hold. They hold a belief that if you have an abortion, you're killing someone. I can yell and scream about like, well, but you know, women's bodies and all that. And they will say, no, it's not the woman's body. It's a person and you can't kill people. I mean, that's, I, I am on your side in that. I agree. We should, should be allowed to do that because I don't think it's a person. And because you can't be forced to give your body to the child.

0:28:56 Thomas: I do agree with that. However, I think that coming from that angle is not going to work on Tyler. Maybe I'm wrong on that. I apologize if I am. That's an assessment I have made. And if I'm right, I apologize. It is not an attack on you. I promise. This is not my assessment of what's going to convince somebody in a debate is not an attack on anyone. And I don't mean it that way. I hope it's not taken that way, and I'm really sorry to have caused offense to you in this way. There's some interesting stuff going on here, and here I'm going to go discuss it philosophically in just the way that says I shouldn't do, but that's how I discuss everything. Everything I discuss, I discuss philosophically.

0:29:43 Thomas: That's this show, I'm sorry. I'm also a man, I'm never a woman during the show, unfortunately, or anyone else, or a person of color, or theist, or anything. I'm me. I can only talk how I can talk. I would love to have guests on to talk to give me different perspectives. I really would. And unfortunately, most pro-life guests are going to be like Tyler. They're going to be another white guy. So it does end up being two white guys talking about abortion. Apologies for that. It would be nice to have the other side on. Again, I don't think it would get anywhere. And that's an assessment. I've already covered this, though. Though. That's an assessment I'm making. Sorry if that's wrong. It's not meant to be an attack on anybody. But anyway, it's almost an attack on Tyler, by the way. If it's an attack on anybody, it is an attack that I don't think will get through to Tyler.

0:30:33 Thomas: I think he is convinced of a falsehood and the results are very tragic for women in the world. I mean, people restricting abortion is, as you've said, absolutely tragic toward women. I think, getting back to what I started to say, there's some interesting stuff going on here because I don't know that... I'm tossing this around because I'm worried that I'm wrong. I don'T want to be wrong. I don't want to cause offense. I don't want to hurt people in any way. But I DON'T know that I can do what you're asking, which is to always talk about something like this, to meet your demands of how I'm going to talk about this.

0:31:15 Thomas: I'm at a loss. Am I crazy? Am I wrong? I'm going to try to acknowledge what I can. I'll try to get the right guess that I can get, but I don't know that I'm required to talk issues in that way. When I talk about atheists in Bangladesh getting murdered. I talk about it with this tone. I mean, I am biased. I'm a person who will definitely have bias towards certain issues. And being that I'm not a woman, I definitely will, I acknowledge it is a failing of mine and of every man likely that we don't, we can't get as heated up about some of these things. But I also don't get heated up about anything, really.

0:32:03 Thomas: I mean, the most heated I probably ever got, I don't even know. I get heated very occasionally, and people can remind me. I can't think of the last time, but I'm sure it's happened. And it was probably something that was more related to me. So I don'T begrudge anyone getting heated about their issue, but II don't know that I'm going to be able to do that for everyone. I CAN'T do that FOR everyone's issue. I donT KNOW that I can be that, or that I SHOULD be that? I mean, should I try? I'm being fully, fully honest in asking this question. People, feel free to let me know in comments or whatever. I mean do I need to try to get more heated about any issue that affects other people?

0:32:51 Thomas: Because this is not the only issue. I know this is probably very important to you. It definitely is. That is totally cool. I understand. There are a lot of of other issues that are important to other people that are just as important to other people as this is to you. And I'm speaking again to the commenter. Do I need to get just as similarly heated and presuppose the solution, by the way? That involves presupposing the solution to the question. Not only do I need to get fired up, I need to get fire up because I have to exactly agree with what you're saying. I mean, I apologize. I don't see things that way. I approach approach problems from a different angle. I'm going to look at the arguments. I mean, I do what I can. I am sorry. I really am sorry about this.

0:33:37 Thomas: You are catching me, listeners, in a genuine moment of thinking this through and self-reflection. I don't... I'm not 100% on the answer to this. I' m so worried that I might be hurting people by saying this. I hope I'm really don't intend to hurt anyone's feelings, but I really don't know that that' that's what I can do. I mean, I don't know that I can just presuppose the answer to the question in front of Tyler and say, Tyler, I'm sorry, there's no debate to be had. You're already wrong. I'm just going to say, how dare you restrict women's rights over and over? I'm just going say, I just don't think that's going to do anything. I think that'll turn him off. He'll say, oh, this is just some guy who doesn't listen to anything I say.

0:34:27 Thomas: I'm Anyway, this is a very challenging comment.

0:34:32 Thomas: Commenter, if you're listening, I hope I haven't offended you too much. I hope you understand where I'm coming from, and I'll reiterate again, I agree with you on virtually everything except our approach, I think, and the fact that I approach everything in this philosophical way. Anyway. So everything but that, I assure you, I am pro-choice. I don't know if I need to say that, but apparently I do, so sorry. But feel free to email me if you want, by the way, atheistically speaking at Gmail, if you wanna talk about this. Or if you Wanna Come On The Show, I'll give you a chance to voice your opinion on the show if you wants to. I would be happy to. To. I think that would be good for people to hear.

0:35:18 Thomas: I really do. So if you want to, actually, please, I'm asking you now, please, if you're listening, please come on the show because that would be interesting to hear, it would be for people to get exposed to, especially I've exposed people to Tyler's beliefs, I'd be happy to expose people to more sides to this, particularly your side. But at the same time, I don't know that I can accept. There's a part of me that's a little frustrated by your ultimatum of how I have to talk about this issue. You can talk about the issue however you want. I'm not going to tell anyone how they ought to talk, or how they have to. I am not going make a demand on someone that they must talk about an issue in this manner. And I'll appreciate it if you don't make any demands on me about that, about how I HAVE to talk on an issue.

0:36:09 Thomas: Sorry if that offends you, I really am, but I mean, I'm not really going to, I mean people can make lots of demands about how I ought to talk to Tyler or somebody who thinks that babies are being murdered and that fetuses are babies and all that. They could make just as an emotional appeal saying that you cannot even talk about this issue unless you talk about how murders are happening to fetuses everywhere. I mean, really, you can make the same claim, same. You can make the same emotional appeal. And the only thing that I think filters through all of it is logical arguments. And you may be right if you make an argument that, look, personhood does not even matter. You may be wrong. I might be wrong on that. I'm sorry if I am wrong on that. But I think personhood is important because we would approach the problem totally differently if we thought the fetus was a person.

0:36:58 Thomas: We would do things very different. I think it would have have profound consequences. So I think both personhood and the argument for bodily autonomy are both important. And I think, but the only way we can arrive at that is by discussing it. And the only reason we can thrive at it, or the only we can derive at it in a way where people are maybe going to be able to see each other's viewpoints, is to do so logically and to try to make arguments about it. So, I'm sorry. That's how I feel. But I'd be happy to have you on. The I really would. You can yell at me all you want on the show. I'll play it for people. That'll help. I'm joking a little bit, but not really. I mean, if you think I'm that wrong about it, I'm happy to hear someone who thinks I'm not wrong about anything, and maybe you're right.

0:37:45 Thomas: I'll leave us with that. Actually, I'll let you guys know a little secret. I had recorded a whole second half of this episode and was about to publish and then saw this comment and then then realized I had to talk about this. So I actually deleted half an episode. Now it wasn't very good. It wasn't very good, it was some random observations that I had that I thought were interesting, but after I read this comment, I realized they were not interesting in comparison to a genuine disagreement and, you know, genuine hurt I may have caused, you know, that's more important. Dealing with this is more important, so I actually just trashed half an episode. So, I just thought I'd tell you guys that. It was, it wasn't, it wasn't.

0:38:32 Thomas: In comparison now, looking back, it was a good decision. So thanks for listening. We got Richard Carrier on the show Thursday and probably Monday because it was long one. It is an interesting interview. It's not about Jesus. So there you go. It about, I don't know if I should tease it. Well, I won't give it away. It it's about a recent article he wrote that is very, very, very, very long and involved. And I found it fascinating and I got him on the show. So I'm really excited to have him. That'll be Thursday. Thank you so much to all my patrons. And similarly, I'll probably do an early episode thing for you guys for part two of that. So that's been working pretty well. So thanks for listening. Feel free to, you know, any feedback, atheistically speaking at Gmail, et cetera. Feel Free to, to leave it to me and I'll try to see it and make comments on it. And oftentimes delete a whole episode and redo it because I saw a good comment. So to talk to you guys Thursday, thank you for listening.