AS190: Scientology with Chris Shelton

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 190, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, as promised, I've got a really great interview for today, an old guest who you may remember. And if you don't, definitely check out his episodes, maybe even before you listen to this one. Go back, although it was quite long, so maybe not. It's up to you guys. At any rate, let's get to that interview.

0:01:05 Thomas: Joining me now, again for the second time, or technically maybe the fourth, is Chris Shelton. How are you doing?

0:01:13 Chris: I'm doing good.

0:01:14 Thomas: And Chris, for those of you who remember, it was, I think, my first ever three-part episode. Incredibly interesting conversation about Chris's life in Scientology. And you also go by, remind me your handle, MNCriticalThinker, maybe? Or you're on Twitter, right?

0:01:30 Chris: Yeah, I sort of call myself the critical thinker at large, and that's the title on my YouTube channel and on my blog, and the blog is at mncriticalthinking.com.

0:01:44 Thomas: Oh, Critical Thinking. Okay, great. Yeah, definitely check that out. And I was thinking, thanks for coming on the show again, I was thinking, I saw this recent news Leah Remini, you know, whatever's going on there, and then I thought of you, and I thought let's do a little catch up episode, so if you wouldn't mind, maybe give us the very quick version just a, I don't know, 5-10 minute version at most of the story we talked about earlier, because I have a lot of people who may not have heard those episodes Just enough to kind of prime those people. Go back and check out the Scientology episodes with Chris Shelton from some months back. But just the Reader's Digest version, if you would.

0:01:47 Chris: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

0:02:02 Chris: Of course. I was in Scientology for 27 years, officially. I was actually raised with it. My parents were Scientologists. They're not anymore. And when I was 15 years old, I got involved with it, and when I was 17 years old is when I actually started working for the organization. And I was a professional Scientologist, meaning I worked for that group for 25 years. I've spent the first eight years working at one of their local churches in Santa Barbara, California, which is obviously where I lived. I was born and raised in California. And then I moved up, as they say, to the SEA organization, and that's S-E-A organization as in the ocean.

0:03:14 Chris: It's a naval paramilitary group that forms the core of Scientology. It's about 4,000 or 5,000 people worldwide. And being part of that group basically means that your entire life is devoted it to Scientology. You don't do anything else but 24-7, 365 days a year, flat out working for that group. And the schedule is intense. It is get up in the morning, you know, anywhere from 7:30, 8, you now, and 10, working until midnight, 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock in the morning, all day, every day. You know, half hour for lunch, half half hour for dinner, no break times, um.

0:03:57 Thomas: But at least the pay is great, right? I mean, you were just making a fortune. Fortune.

0:04:00 Chris: Yeah, it was working for the sea organization is what they what they call a monastic existence because they give you 50 bucks a week, and that's that's best case scenario. Often there was no pay, quarter pay, you know, half pay, um, um, the money in Scientology is a, is a, well, let's just say that all the money goes up the line and very little of it comes back down. So, um, well,

0:04:30 Thomas: Yeah, I remember it was pretty shocking when we talked about just how just the slave labor going on, really. I mean, yeah.

0:04:40 Chris: That in a nutshell, that really is the way to describe it. And it is, it is you know, there are human rights violations there.

0:04:47 Thomas: Yeah. It's taking advantage of people to an extreme degree, you know.

0:04:52 Chris: Well, it really does because it takes people who have an honest effort to want to improve the world And they are recruited into the Sea Organization on that basis. They're not joining because they want to go be slave labor and they're not going thinking that that's what's going to happen particularly. They do understand that they're sacrificing a great deal of their personal freedom and their schedule and their life. They also are sacrificing having children because in the Sea Organization you don't get to have children. And they know that going in and they willingly make that sacrifice because like people who join the military, they know they're putting their life on the line for a higher purpose, for a greater cause.

0:05:38 Chris: And that's what they go in thinking. Unfortunately, with Scientology, that's all a lie. It's a deceit. And what it really exists for is to enrich one person. At first, that person was L. Ron Hubbard. And after he died in 1986, that that person was David Miscavige, and he is still the current leader of Scientology. He is, you know, a bit of a despot, and he runs this organization with an iron hand, and he's not a good guy. And the whole purpose of that organization is to enrich him. And there's a lot of PR and a lot of fluff and whatnot communicated to the Scientologists just to give them a completely different impression of what's going on.

0:06:29 Chris: But when you get out of it and you find out about the true character of Hubbard and the true director of Hubbard, the true actor of David Miscavige, and you get some behind-the-scenes look at what actually goes on, you come to realize that those people are being taken advantage of. And that was the group that I worked for for 17 years in the Sea Organization. I was there for 17 years until December 2012. is when I left the Sea Organization. I still believed in Scientology as a subject. I still believe that L. Ron Hubbard knew what he was talking about at that time. That's what I thought. And I still wanted to do Scientology, as a practice, as religious practice. I just didn't want to work for it anymore.

0:07:15 Chris: I had seen behind the curtain enough to know that something wasn't right, but I didn't yet know enough to question the whole subject. After I got out in December 2012 and started living life in the real world again, shortly after that is when I got on the internet and I started looking up things about Scientology. You're not supposed to do that when you're in Scientology, you're supposed to avoid looking at anything negative about it. That's That's true for any destructive cult. They all have rules like that.

0:07:51 Chris: And I sort of forewent those rules. I ignored them and I went ahead and did it anyway because I knew that there were some things that were rotten. After I left the Sea Org, I was being mistreated by Scientology and I was sort of being treated as a second class citizen because I had left. And so that drove me to the Internet. And I then spent months, you know, quite a few months doing what I call going down the rabbit hole of, you know, through the looking glass, you knows, like falling down this hole of truth, you know, well,

0:08:26 Thomas: Right. And how long did you stay in denial? I mean was it hard at first when you saw these facts? Because I can kind of relate on things that, you know, I've once believed that I of changed my mind on it. It takes a few cracks at it, I think. Don't you think?

0:08:40 Chris: Very much so. And in fact, my the process of me leaving Scientology, leaving the C organization was was not a months long process. It had taken years for me to start having the shell crack, you know, and that process actually started for real in 2004 when I was still very deeply involved in the SEAL organization. And I saw I had some experiences that sort of gave me the impression that maybe we weren't doing what I thought we were doing. But it's easy when you're in a group like that, especially in a very, very intense group like the C organization, where there's not a lot of time for personal reflection and thinking. The pressure is kept intense. It's sort of like, I would say, it's similar to working in a call center, like those kind of boiler room type situations. It's like that for the C. organization members all the time.

0:08:51 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:43 Chris: And, um, you know, when you're in the C organization, it's not a nine to five, right? You're all day every day, and you get a day, the best possible case for you having time off is one day every two weeks, and otherwise you're just working. So, I in the last five years I worked in the organization, I had literally a total of five days off.

0:10:11 Chris: So, you know, Christmas is a half day off. Thanksgiving is a, oh, okay, we're going to have an hour long dinner now. You know, these people are dedicated to a fanatical degree. And I was very steeped in that world. So the first crack started appearing in 2004. It took me until 2012 to get up enough gumption to say, okay. Okay, I'm done with this as far as working for this now. I've seen enough. And to be detailed, when we spoke before, I went into all the details of what I had seen and heard, and it definitely gave me the impression that Scientology was not really doing what it said it was doing, but I still had enough faith in it that I thought I could still improve by practicing it.

0:11:01 Chris: And I was, I was, it was that that I was finally disabused of when I found out that Ron Hubbard personally was a pathological liar in his own life. And, you know, he had had three wives. He never fessed up on one of those. He, I think the words of bigamist, you knows, he married, he was married to one woman and he went and married another one while he was still married. He was not a good guy. And finding out about all the lies that he told in his life and how he had formulated Dianetics and Scientology gave me the mental wherewithal to break free from it. It. And that was the process of getting out in 2013. And it was finding all of that out that set me on the course I'm on now. Because as you can imagine, after finding out you've been taken advantage of for most of your life, you want to do something about it.

0:11:31 Thomas: Yeah, absolutely.

0:12:11 Thomas: I am still amazed at how you've gotten through it. I mean, I can imagine having a really hard time with that. And it seems like you've put a lot of positive energy. You've changed it kind of into a positive thing and channeled it to try to do some good. But I could could imagine, you know, myself, like, who knows how I would react, you know, being, having that level of just absolute betrayal for so long. And I think it's really remarkable that you've been able to turn that around.

0:12:44 Chris: Thank you. It has been a lot lot of work. People, I started speaking out almost immediately. At first I was speaking out anonymously and then because the church comes after its critics and I was, you know, I didn't want to have them coming after me. And of course, as I detailed in our earlier, you know, blogs, I had had a relationship with a Scientologist and I very much wanted to keep that, you know, and that didn't end up working out because I was, I was speaking out, and they found out that I was doing that, and, um, and then they ended up basically excommunicating me, you know, so to speak, they call it, uh, labeling you with a with a label of a suppressive person, you're you're an ultimate bad guy. And when you when they do that to you, no Scientologist is allowed to have any communication or contact with you of any kind, even family members or friends or business associates, even, you know. And I lost everything, everything in terms of friends I'd had and my fiance, everything was gone.

0:12:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:13:49 Chris: And so that's when I started speaking out openly. And of course, I've started my YouTube channel and my blog and whatnot, and I've been doing that. But it's always been in an effort to be positive and rebuilding my life and recovering from all those years of what I have come to learn was pretty draconian mind mind control. And I don't even say that some kind of weird conspiratorial way. I just don't have another word to use for what they do to you, you know?

0:14:12 Thomas: Yeah. It seems pretty appropriate from, from, yeah, from what I've heard from you, it seems pretty inappropriate. Let me ask you, hypothetically, it just occurred to me, I don't know if I I asked you this last time, but do you think if they, if they had treated you better, do you think you may not even be out right now? Like, do you Think if, I don't know, because that, that seems like the ultimate insult of it to me. It's like you put in years, you know, 25 years or more of, of just of hard work, you know, like dedication to their organization and they can't even have the decency to treat you better, you know, on the way out? Like, do you think that the way they treated you could have changed how you reacted and how you, and maybe even maybe you'd still be somewhat a believer had they not been so horrible to you?

0:14:28 Chris: Yeah.

0:15:09 Chris: Well, I have to say that, yes, that is the case. The true character of Scientology is a very vindictive, it has a very vindictive nature to it. And that's a reflection of L. Ron Hubbard himself and his character, because he wrote that into the policies of the church. So they really don't have a lot of choice in the matter of how the culture of the Church is developed around that. So that's reflected in how they treat people. Were that not the case, Scientology would be actually a radically different organization, and it would act very differently.

0:15:17 Thomas: Yeah.

0:15:46 Chris: You know, the Sea Organization itself would be very different. But had that not happened to me to be very direct in answering your question, I'd have to say no. I'd probably still be involved with it. It was noteworthy to me in going through that year from 2012 to 2013 when I finally got that label and got kicked out how much they had to work to make me an enemy of them because I, I tried so hard to not have that happen. And I talk about going down the rabbit hole and speaking out. But at the same time, I was trying to cooperate. I was try to keep this relationship going. I was to follow their rules. And it was only when that became so impossible to my own personal integrity and freedom that I just couldn't do it. You know, I couldn't keep my mouth shut. I couldn't not be who I am. And that was what they were demanding,

0:15:46 Thomas: Well, sure. Yeah.

0:16:14 Thomas: Yeah, yeah,

0:16:47 Chris: You know. So very

0:16:48 Thomas: Yeah. And it's interesting to think about from a, almost like an adaptive point of view when it comes to the, I don't know, the meme of Scientology. It's interesting that it's like an adaptation because I wonder if they just adjusted things to treat you and others a little better, maybe would they have more success? But on the other hand, maybe the intimidation and all that and that kind of attitude, maybe that keeps a number of people going that wouldn't have otherwise. I wonder how the balance sheet works out there.

0:17:22 Chris: Much so. The totalitarian sort of attitude that they have toward their members is not only a reflection of Hubbard, but it's also a control operation, right? The disconnection policy, the point that Scientologists have to no longer be in connection with you if you are declared suppressive, this is a very, very important policy for them because it's how they keep people in line. If your wife or your mother or your son is a Scientologist and you want to keep that relationship, you are forced to, let's just say you're very motivated to listen to what they're telling you as a Scientologists and following their directions, because you know that if you don't, that, you know, hammer is waiting to fall and, and they don't hesitate to use it.

And what's been happening more recently with the tremendous amount of bad media that Scientology is getting now is they are really circling the wagons. I am out, and I am a critic of the church, but I still hear from people who are inside. They email me. They call me because I am very easy to reach. I'm wide open on Facebook. I'm white open on my blog. And um, I'm so, I make myself available for for people like that and they tell me what's going on and it's not a pretty picture inside the church right now. They're they're really coming down with an iron fist on anybody who is, they're even suspecting is is looking at negative material on the internet,

0:17:32 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:13 Thomas: It is.

0:19:01 Chris: Or is in, you know, it's it's a, it's danger for them to reach out to me because, because if Scientology finds out they've been in touch with me or people like me, critics of the church, they get in a lot of trouble. So, yeah, well, they're bleeding members. It's quite, you know, it's on its way out. I've often said that Scientology is dead and they just don't realize it yet.

0:19:13 Thomas: Hard to imagine that this could carry on all that much longer, I mean, it really is, but at the same time, who knows, I mean, you never know. Yeah. Yeah.

0:19:32 Chris: You know, the corpse is on the table, you knows, on the slab in the mortuary, but they just haven't quite twigged on that yet. They're down to a small number. It's a very small group, much, much smaller than they hype themselves to be. There have never been, ever, millions of members. At most, I think we say 250,000 or something at one time, and that's being very, very generous.

0:19:33 Thomas: Would.

0:20:04 Thomas: That have been under uh Elrond Hubbard or under uh, or later.

0:20:07 Chris: Yeah, that would have been back in the 70s during their heyday. And since then, it's just been nonstop downtrend in terms of if you were to put it on a graph, you would be seeing a line that would be going down, down, down, since the 80s. And now, we think best case, 30,000 people worldwide, most of them clustered in Los Angeles and Clearwater, Florida. Very much so we call them whales yeah we call them whales and it's a Las Vegas term actually you know when a high roller walks into a Vegas casino they call them Wales and in Scientology when people like you know a billionaire like Bob Duggan he made big money through pharmaceuticals he gives millions and millions and billions of dollars to them Tom Cruise is I'm sure handed over millions of dollars. Leah Romini, who is now out, who we'll talk about, she

0:20:08 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:20:35 Thomas: They did a good job of picking, uh, you know, cash cows though, At least they're good at squeezing a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Yeah.

0:21:14 Chris: Gave $3 million during the time she was in. That's

0:21:14 Thomas: I was just going to say, yeah, I was Just maybe it'd be a good time to transition. I'm just looking at the headline right now saying she gave millions to Scientology.

0:21:24 Chris: Right, $3 million apparently. She came out actually around the same time I did and at first was very low-key about it. She made some statements and she had managed to get her entire family out at the same time, which was major kudos to her for doing that. She came out, her mother was a very high level Scientologist, her husband was involved, and they all came out together. She didn't say a whole lot about it. But now, just last week, her book called Troublemaker, which is a really good, good title for her, was just released. It's a great book. And she has been on a book tour, and she's been on a media tour and talking about that and um and she's been very outspoken now about what what her experience was with it

0:22:02 Thomas: Yeah?

0:22:16 Thomas: What do you think? Do you think I wonder if going clear kind of paved the way for that? What Do you Think?

0:22:20 Chris: Very much so, I think going clear, I think we spoke actually when we did our original interview it was right before that, right? It was in March, and um, that was just before going clear came out, I think, or around that time, and going clear was, a when that came out, it was a a meteor impact, you know, it was huge, um, I think it was the second highest viewed uh documentary ever aired on HBO, like nine million views or something, and um, so that, that was, that was very, very big, and Scientology has a sort of a tone deaf thing going on in terms of their PR, where they issued the most insanely bad press releases in

0:22:26 Thomas: Yeah. I think it was just coming out or something. Yeah. Yeah, well, I remember,

0:23:14 Chris: Response to their critics, yeah.

0:23:14 Thomas: I remember seeing targeted Twitter ads that somehow, I don't know how, were targeted toward me trying to like defame the, you know, producers or the director, whoever it was, whoever wrote it or something. And I thought, what is that? And of course, not, it wouldn't give you any indication that it was affiliated with Scientology. It was some, you knows, made to look like it was some totally neutral, unrelated thing, but it was like, this is a weird target.

0:23:30 Chris: Yeah, I think, I think that, I think the Twitter account was Freedom and ethics and media or something like that, yeah.

0:23:45 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. I think that was what it was. Yeah. That was their response, huh?

0:23:50 Chris: Yeah, they, they went on a, they just went crazy, that, and and and in doing so, here's the best part, I don't know if irony is the right word to use, but it was certainly wonderful to watch them put out a full-page ad on how bad this documentary was in the New York Times right before it aired at Telluride, at the film festival, right? For its premiere.

0:24:17 Thomas: Yeah, it's sort of like the burning the albums thing, you know, like all the artists, the musicians who, as soon as someone decides to burn their album, you're like, ah, God doesn't and want you to listen to this, then that drives the, uh, the album sales. That was the classic thing.

0:24:30 Chris: Completely. Completely. Alex Gibney, who was the one who wrote and directed the documentary with Lawrence Wright, because it was based on a book called Going Clear, Scientology and the Prison of Belief, a very good book. But the documentary was based on that and he said he, he and HBO were practically doing cartwheels because they couldn't have asked for better publicity, you know, if Scientology had just shut the hell up and not said anything about it and just taken the high road, it would not actually have gotten anywhere near the reception that it did as it was.

0:24:31 Thomas: Yeah. Yep.

0:25:04 Thomas: It, isn't that always

0:25:10 Chris: They had standing room only showings at the film festival. Oh, yes.

0:25:10 Thomas: The case? Isn't that always the place? I mean, it really is. People, you know, dictators, fascists, it's always the case that they think they're going to tell everybody what's best for them. Like, you guys should not consume this media. It's not good for you. And no one ever listens to that. It just just never works.

0:25:26 Chris: Well, and that's the tone deafness, right, because you have a, you have a cult leader, and I've learned a lot, I have been very proactive in my recovery process from this destructive cult and I have learned a little bit about this, and I think it's really important, about destructive cults and one, for one, cult leaders act in very predictable ways.

0:25:33 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

0:25:51 Chris: And they're, They're very used to having their way with their followers and having their words taken as law. But in the real world, outside of the cult bubble world, they're a bit of a laughingstock. And the amazing thing is that they don't know that. They don't see that. And so you get David Miscavige issuing these press releases. He doesn't issue them under his own name. There's an internal church officer, Karen Powell, who's sort of their PR person, because they don't have an international spokesman anymore. Nobody will take that job. But they have this Karen Powell issuing these press statements, but really, they're just David Miscavige writing them. And they are the most blathering, insane, you know, insulting pieces of work. In fact, even profane, they issued a press statement that shocked me. I mean, I thought I had seen everything, but they issued A press statement a couple months ago about, oh, gosh, I think it was related to something with going clear.

0:26:11 Thomas: Yeah! Yeah.

0:27:00 Chris: And they said it was provable bullshit, and that was a press statement that was a release to the media, and I'm like, a church is saying that to the media about a critical statement about them, I'm not like, wow, you know, that really tells you a lot about what must go on behind closed doors in that place. Yeah.

0:27:29 Thomas: I'm really curious about, and this may just be speculative stuff, and feel free, we can just say this is just, you know, yours or my opinion, but I'm curious what you think about Miscavige. Is he, in some ways, because that's what I marvel at with these people is the dichotomy, because he's got to be a smart guy in a lot of ways, right? I mean, he's gotta have some qualities that lead him to become, that cause him to become the leader. I mean he's probably got a bazillion dollars. I remember from our last talks that he's treated like a king. He's got, you know, and but at the same time, how are these people so unaware, you You know, how are they so oblivious as to the right way to keep, you know, to keep their religion going, really? I mean, it's self-destructive. What do you think? Just your opinion. I mean. What do You think of the guy?

0:27:36 Chris: Yeah. Right.

0:28:27 Chris: No, for sure. There are a number of factors that go into it in terms of the real answer to the question. But the short answer is he is charismatic. He can be charming. He is definitely an intelligent individual. He's well read. And he is, well, he's crafty. You know, he is a crafty guy. All destructive cult leaders have to be very wily people. They have to also have a basic understanding of maybe even at a gut level of how to manipulate people and how to assert, you know, how to be authoritarian, authoritative towards people. So it was to get people to do what they say to do, right?

0:29:13 Chris: Miscavige learned a lot of that from L. Ron Hubbard. He came up under L. Ronald Hubbard, he was a direct junior to Hubbard for many, many years. And so he kind of picked up on a lot Hubbard's mannerisms and a lot the ways that Hubbard had figured out how to manipulate people, people.

0:29:36 Chris: Miscavige has a bit of a, well, let's just say that there have definitely been a lot of stories about him beating on people. And that's undeniable.

0:29:47 Thomas: Well, and one thing I really

0:29:49 Chris: I'm not slandering the guy by saying that those stories exist. And I was assaulted in the Sea Organization. I was not assaulted by David Miscavige. I was, I was, I was, uh, hit by somebody who was junior to him, who was, um, anyway. And, and that happened, you know, a few times, so I know that there is a culture of violence in the C organization, yeah.

0:29:49 Thomas: Wanted. Yeah.

0:30:12 Thomas: Was this in an official, was that in official capacity or was that, I mean was it unrelated to, wow.

0:30:21 Chris: No, no, that was very, very much in an official capacity. I was not, was not some personal disagreement between me and one other person, and we kind of got into it one, one day. This was a person who was very, very senior to me. The C organization is a paramilitary organization. So they have ranks and ratings and salutes and yes, sir, and no, sir. And that's how they run that outfit. And I had a person that was very senior to me call me in and rake me over the coals and, and hit me for not having complied with, uh, what they thought were the orders they, they gave. And of course, in their semi psychotic rage, they weren't even speaking sensibly. But that didn't stop them from beating on me. And there were other instances like that, right, where I was, I was there, I mean, there was a period of time where I didn't sleep for like five straight days, because we were working on some project, right. And this was not, you know, an unusual situation in the C organization.

0:30:22 Thomas: Wow. Oh, my gosh.

0:31:20 Chris: The only reason I was getting, you knows, staying up at all was because I was drinking espresso, you know.

0:31:20 Thomas: But that's that's borderline torture. I mean, that's staying

0:31:26 Chris: So, well, yeah, I have never felt physically worse in my life. So yeah.

0:31:26 Thomas: Up for that long is incredibly bad for you. That's not even I mean is borderline abuse. And let me ask you related to Miscavige. And this is something I think Leah Romini touched on a bit. What do you think? What do what do you believe? Where is his wife? What Do you think on that? Like what? What?

0:31:47 Chris: Oh, yeah. Now we know where she is. She's, or we're pretty sure. Tony Ortega runs a daily, he's a journalist. He's never been a Scientologist. He is an amazing journalist who runs a Daily blog called The Underground Bunker. And he has been been exposing Scientology since the mid-2000s. He's been on these guys. And he has it on good authority that she is holed up at a place called Twin Peaks, which is a little-known facility that the Church of Scientology owns in the mountains of California, up by Lake Arrowhead.

0:32:26 Chris: Scientology is composed of many, many organizations, many, mini little subgroups and corporations. It's a So it's a labyrinth of corporations all done that way for tax purposes and so you can't follow the money. One of the groups and one of the more hidden groups is called the Church of Spiritual Technology. And what they do or one of things that they ostensibly do is they have these compounds of – they have these areas up in these remote regions. There's one out in the deserts of New Mexico, one I think in Wyoming, one in Northern California, and then this one in Southern California, the mountains there. And they have these all gated off and you can't get to them and they won't let you in. But they are doing this project, this long years, decades long project called Preserving Hubbard's Work or Preserving the Tech.

0:33:20 Chris: They call Hubbard'S Work the technology or the tech. And they've been inscribing Hubbard's words, all of his lectures and all of his books, onto titanium plates and gold records and putting these things away in these titanium cases, vacuum sealed. I mean, we're talking about like state-of-the-art preservation technology being used to ensure that L. Ron Hubbard words, I know this sounds totally insane, but I'm telling you, this is real. They're ensuring that L. Ron Hubbard's every word is preserved for eternity in the case of nuclear war. And that's why these facilities are located out in remote regions.

0:34:09 Chris: So Shelley Miscavige has been relegated, exiled, so to speak, to the Twin Peaks facility in Southern California, up in the mountains by Lake Arrowhead. And that's where she's at. And she's exiled up there. And she has not been seen in public since 2007. She is basically banished up there because she did a few things that really pissed off David Miscavige. He had all of the international management personnel tied up in ribbons for years, trying to comply with orders that he had issued to them that he has had no intention of them ever actually doing. He just had had them doing all this busy work.

0:34:54 Chris: And he was never going to approve of any of that work actually being done. And because that's what despots do is they, you know, they have these people and they just enjoy abusing them. And so he had that whole operation going in Hemet, California. That's where the international base or facility is. So his wife, in his absence, got a bunch of those orders complied to, she actually thought he meant what he said, and she went around. This was I guess in 2006.

0:35:25 Thomas: Well, yeah. Foolish her.

0:35:28 Chris: And Um. And She got a bunch of stuff done, he shows up and he's like, I, you know, furious, and he banishes her and she hasn't been seen since, well,

0:35:39 Thomas: But I mean, what, what is the legality of that situation? I mean can't,

0:35:46 Chris: Here's the thing, the police were called by Leah Ramini, and this was a ballsy move on her part, and everybody was just applauding the hell out of it when it happened. When she got out of Scientology, she didn't say a lot, but one thing that she did do was she filed a missing persons report with the LA Police Department over Shelly Miscavige.

0:36:00 Thomas: She filed a missing persons, didn't she? Yeah.

0:36:08 Chris: Within a day, the LAPD had contacted the church, and the report that came back from the LEPD is that they did speak with her in person. She did assure them that she She was safe and secure and doing what she wanted to do. She did not want to issue any public statement. And that was the end of the missing persons report because she wasn't missing. And that's it. They won't say anything else about it.

0:36:36 Thomas: Well, that is just incredible. That's incredible. I, wow.

0:36:41 Chris: Yeah. And Leah was good friends with Shelley Miscavige back before her exile and banishment. And she was very upset. In fact, that was the basis of Leah waking up from Scientology. Was she went to Tom Cruise's wedding in Italy, a star-studded affair. Lots of people went out there. David Miscavige, the leader of Scientology, was Tom Cruise's best man at his wedding to Katie Holmes. So they're all out there. There's various church officials and representatives. And Leah looks around, and she's like, "Hey, where's Shelley? Where's David Miscavige's wife?" Why isn't she here.

And church officials reacted very, very poorly to her questioning this. In fact, I think the exact quote was, "You don't have the fucking rank to ask where Shelly is," which pissed off Leah because she's not somebody to be bossed around. And that's actually the thing that set the wheel in motion for her to start questioning what was actually going on with Scientology as a whole, because she just thought that was just bizarre. And she could not, get the entire time, all the way up until she left Scientology, she could not get anyone to answer the question, where shall it Which

0:38:02 Thomas: Jeez.

0:38:03 Chris: Is why she finally filed the missing persons report after she left, because she was truly concerned for her friend.

0:38:07 Thomas: Well. Well I'm glad to hear that. I mean cause I think there there are people out there who think, you know, Shelly Miscavige is dead or whatever. I'm glad at least she's not.

0:38:10 Chris: Yeah.

0:38:20 Chris: There's you have conspiracy theories all about it all day. But I don't think she's been killed off, especially since the LAPD went and investigated it. The officers of the L.A. Police Department have been compromised by the Church of Scientology, I will say. You know, they've spoken at Scientology events. They've been paid to do off-duty security. You know that's what I mean by that.

0:38:28 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm.

0:38:47 Chris: So kind of like the police in Clearwater. You know, the Fort Harrison and the Scientology base in Clearwater is literally right next to the police department, and they hire off duty cops, and they have donations, and they do all kinds of things to get in the good graces of the city officials and the government and the police. That's what Scientology does. And so that investigation of where Shelley is, you know, was done by those people. I don't think that they, that any of them would go so far as to why about not having seen her because, you know, if she turned up dead, that would mean their career, right?

0:39:30 Chris: So I think they did go talk to her. And I think what happened was that there's, you you know, I've used the term mind control, there's a degree of mind control that occurs in Scientology that's very real, and very strong, it works. And I think that that's why Shelly, you know that she's under the influence of that. And I don't mean that in some kind of like zombie state or something. It's not what I'm saying. I'm sure she's perfectly coherent, and is, you know what seemed person perfectly fine but um undue influence and mind control are are real things there are really techniques to do it and people in Scientology experience those techniques and I think she has and that's why she told them that she was fine with being where she was oh

0:39:25 Thomas: Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah yeah yeah.

0:40:21 Thomas: Well, we're getting long time, so I want to make absolutely sure we talk about your book.

0:40:26 Chris: My god yeah I am having the best time ever I am finishing up a book I'm writing about Scientology and I expect to have it done I've been promising this for a couple months now um and I'm just horrible I I started this project a couple of months ago it's um a collection of what's that

0:40:38 Thomas: So yeah, well, talk about what led you. Sorry, I think our connection's a little bad, but talk about what led you to do that and everything.

0:40:48 Chris: Yeah I there have been books published about Scientology by x members and there have been some really good biographies put together by independent journalists and x members about L. Ron Hubbard. And so I decided that I wasn't going to repeat that territory, at least not exactly. So I have, through my channel, I have done a number of critical essays and videos about the subject of Scientology. I don't consider in talking about Scientology that I am the important part of the story. I'm just one person who was in Scientology and it was an unfortunate fortunate experience. But my story about Scientology is not what's interesting or important.

0:41:42 Chris: It is what Scientology itself is all about and how it does what it does and why it does what is important. And so what I've done is a critical analysis of all the different aspects of Scientology, its belief system, its tax exemption, its control methods, how it goes about doing what it does, and also how to recover from it. And that's from my own personal experience, of course. And I'm told that I've recovered pretty quickly, all things considered. I think my writing and my videos are a big part of that because I've been able to flush a lot of stuff out of my system over the last two years in talking about all this stuff.

0:42:29 Chris: So my book is sort of a collection of all of that. And it's not just a rehash of things I've already said. There is some of that in there, but there's a lot of new material that's never seen the light of day, including a full breakdown of all of their upper confidential levels and why they believe that those things are true. You know, not just the Zinu story that everybody knows about from South Park, But all of it, because there's a lot more going on at the upper levels of Scientology than just Xenu. And, you know, for the casual observer of Scientiology, they don't know anything about that. So this book will fill in all those gaps and holes and give people a very well-rounded look at why this is a destructive cult in all its different, you you know, aspects.

0:43:21 Thomas: Absolutely.

0:43:21 Chris: So my story, my own personal story is just chapter one. The rest of the book, including a, you know a glossary of all the different terms and, and you know I have some appendices talking about some things with Hubbard and his own life and stuff and I break down how it is a destructive cult and how it's a con job. You know I explain all of that and make a a case for that stuff in the book. So I'm really excited about it. And I hope that it is well received.

0:43:53 Chris: My working title is Scientology A to Xenu. So we'll see if that title holds up.

0:43:53 Thomas: Yeah, me too. That's a good one. I like it. It almost sounds like a kid's book, like guide to Scientology.

0:44:07 Chris: That's right. Well, it's an insider's guide to the world of Scientology is what I'm calling it. So yeah.

0:44:12 Thomas: Right. No, that's excellent. And if your personal story, because I feel like I could talk to you about your personal story, and I have for hours. And I feel like we could, yeah, that's a long time.

0:44:22 Chris: Well 27 years, man. There's a lot of water under the bridge.

0:44:26 Thomas: And for that to be just chapter one signifies that this is going to be quite a book. So I'm really excited about that. Maybe when it comes out, maybe we could have a discussion more focused on that. I'll be sure to grab a copy.

0:44:34 Chris: Yeah, me too. I will definitely send you a link on it. And it'll be published as an ebook. So it'll be on Amazon and iTunes and everywhere you can get ebooks. And then if it, you know, if I can get capital from that, then I will publish it as a as a hard copy book. So

0:44:54 Thomas: Yeah, that seems to be the model nowadays, and it's really really cool. So, that's awesome. I'm really excited about that. Thank you so much for coming on and talking about Scientology. Once again, I really could talk to you forever. It's hard to even... So, I look forward to having you again sometime.

0:44:55 Chris: Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. I it's a fascinating subject.

0:45:14 Thomas: Yeah, well, and you're an expert, for sure. I mean, there couldn't be more of an expert.

0:45:18 Chris: It's the one thing I get to say I'm an expert on. But yeah,

0:45:21 Thomas: Really, I mean... Not too many people will have your same story of years toiling away at the sweatshop of the Sea Organization. It's really interesting stuff.

0:45:31 Chris: No, it's bad stuff.

0:45:35 Thomas: All right, well, Chris Shelton, thank you so much. Feel free, so mncriticalthinking.com, right?

0:45:42 Chris: Yeah, mncriticalthinking.com.

0:45:44 Thomas: And then the YouTube channel.

0:45:44 Chris: And of course, if you just Google my name, it will come up and you'll find my YouTube channel as well, which is simply called Chris Shelton.

0:45:52 Thomas: Way nowadays. We should just say Google Chris Shelton Scientology. You'll find everything thing you need to find. I don't know why we bother with URLs anymore.

0:45:57 Chris: I know, I know. It's fun.

0:46:04 Thomas: Yeah, thanks again so much for coming on. I'll talk to you again soon.

0:46:07 Chris: All right, bye-bye.

0:46:24 Thomas: Right, thank you guys so much for another great week. That was a fun episode, good interview. I love Chris Shelton, he's so fascinating, I really could go on at length every time with him. And, as always, if you'd like to support the show, go to patreon.com/atheist and become one of my very, very fine, smart, brilliant, attractive supporters over on Patreon. Let me thank my all-time greats, who are, of course, Zimu Zinu, Adrian Borschoff, Michael, Jonathan Moyet, Jay Aldenwalt, Bangs Naughty Bits, Peter Skelton, Brian Gerfort, Dale, Matt Garrett, and Samantha. Thank you guys, I can't tell you, it just means so much.

0:47:09 Thomas: It really does. So patreon.com/atheist if you'd like to keep supporting the show that you just listened to. Bring interviews like that. And another great interview next week that I'm very excited about. It's a longer one, so I'll squeeze in, see if I can squeeze in a short commentary Tuesday, which takes place on a Monday, which gets released Sunday. But even just saying that will probably take too much time. All right. Thank you guys for listening. And I've been your host at Atheistically Speaking, and I will see you next week for With all new shows, no repeats. Hmm, that would be good. If I could do repeats, that would be a lot easier for me. But nope, all new shows.