AS188: More Transgender Discussion with Fiona

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:30 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 188, and I am your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, we'll continue the interview with Fiona, and then maybe I'll say a few words afterwards if we have time. So, let's just get right to it.

0:00:59 Thomas: So I suppose I want to try to take a second, and I don't, I think it would be a little, I don't know what the word is, maybe, I timid of me to back down on the thing I was trying to talk about originally when I posted this thing. Not in this conversation, I'm just bringing it up for the first time. But when I first posted this, what I was curious about out as a, as a matter of policy, because I think it is maybe a little difficult. Maybe you disagree, I thought, I think it's interesting to look at this problem it comes to kids, because I think that's when it's maybe not necessarily straightforward because here, here's what I want to say. I really don't give a shit, and this is maybe important to say because it sounds like there are people in certain states who are not at all on the same page with me on this, but I really do not give a s**t when it comes to adults and what bathrooms they are using.

0:01:53 Thomas: Fiona, use whatever bathroom you want. It is just not an issue at all. I think the only issue that, and it is hard because sometimes I try to look at these little corner cases. And I'm not saying I'm always right or anything, but I'm just trying to look at these corner cases, and then I think sometimes when you do, you can be painted onto the wrong side of things. Like someone might think just because I'm saying this might be a difficult situation that somehow I'm against trans rights, or I want, you know, trans people to use different bathrooms in all cases. Not the case. But I do think it could be problematic if you had a rule, or if the law is that as soon as a male identifies, or vice versa, identifies as female, that therefore then they're entirely entitled to shower openly when it comes to high school kids with them.

0:02:51 Thomas: That's something that could be difficult. And furthermore, I could see that being not just difficult, you know, like for me or something, but for the public. I mean, I don't know, because the public is largely not terribly understanding with these kinds of things. And I think that's something that's interesting to talk about. What do you think about that? I mean because, and let me say one more thing, when it comes to this Matt Walsh guy, I'm not at all on the same page as this guy. And I think a lot of people, a lot of Christians, I've heard the same rhetoric where they do actually think that it's all a gimmick for men to get in the girls' locker rooms. Like, they, it really sounds like that's what they believe. I don't believe that, but I do think, yeah.

0:03:32 Fiona: Even Um, just recently, uh, who was it, um, uh, Mike Huckabee had a big spiel about it, and there was a bit of a fluff, I don't know if you recalled it, but uh, he had said, um, I guess he was talking to, you know, some of his supporters, and he said something along the lines of, you know, he wished he'd have thought of this when he was a kid, because then he would, would have, yeah He said he would, he wish he'd thought of it when he was a kid, because then he would have got to go shower with the girls, and Um, it really is like, um, uh

0:03:40 Thomas: Oh, yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Oh, Oh, yeah, I remember, I remember which is a creepy ass thing to say, but however if I could have had an opportunity to shower with the girls in high school, I would have taken it. I don't know that I would have pretended to be transgender to do so.

0:04:14 Fiona: I right I I think there's, um, I think there's, uh, probably more creative ways and probably less socially damaging ways to try to get that done um, because I'm going to tell you, you're not going to make a lot of of friends by, uh, all of a sudden becoming transgender, um, it's not, uh, it's not the most, uh, easy social route you can take in life, I'll tell you that. Personally, however, um, back to, uh, Mr. Huckabee there, uh, it's crazy that somebody would say something like that. I mean, it's, it's really just crazy. Um, first off, like you said, it's just flat out creepy.

Second, it kind of goes along lines with, um, I think, uh, Pendulet has a line where he says, you know, when people ask him, you know, what keeps you from murdering people, from being atheist, you know, he says, you know, well, it's easy, I've, you know, killed everybody I've ever wanted to kill, which is not nobody, and um, you know, it's, it's, you know, is like, is that really, what is that really the only thing that keeps you form, you know, showering with women, you know, trying to, like, sneak in there, is the fact that it's socially, to, you know, be a transgender person, like, you know, you just didn't think of it, like, you just didn't think to be a creep. I mean, that's really what it boils down to with him, um,

0:04:29 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. True. Oh, yeah, yeah... Yeah, right.

0:05:37 Fiona: But, you know, if we take, if you won't mind taking a step back into reality here, it's one of the toughest, um, discussions to have with people is, and we kind of touched on this before, but it's, being transgender isn't about sexuality.

0:05:56 Fiona: Like I said, you know, there, there's connections, but they're not, they're not intrinsically related. Can honestly tell you that transgender has not influenced my sexuality, it doesn't, I've never made decisions based on that, um, in the way he's described in the way, you know, people, I can describe it for me, and I'm willing to guess for a lot of people like me, it's not about sexuality, it's about our identity, about wanting to be viewed socially as the person that we are, as the gender we are.

So in your situation, where there's a high school student who is coming out as being transgender, um, it doesn't matter which direction, um, being a male or being a female, talk, talk about it, is, you know, like, oh, it might be awkward for the students, know, to all of a sudden have somebody who, you know, was born the opposite gender in the locker room with them. I think it's a, I think it's a really complicated issue on a lot of standpoints, because you're going into, well, all of a sudden why are we making them shower together, like, in a public way, like, is that something that we need to do? Should we raise them in a way that that's that much of an issue, even? Should nudity like that be such a big thing for them? Should, should we raise

0:07:27 Fiona: Them to be uncomfortable around, you know, with nudity, even, you know, together or separately, you know, uh, divided by gender?

0:07:26 Thomas: Yeah, well, but I think that's a separate issue. I mean, you do... I think we very much... if, if you and I were trying to establish policy, we very much have to deal with the facts as they are. I don't think, I think that's one place. Let me just say quickly a few places where I think this got confused because this became a pretty massive thread on, on my Facebook, um, which is great actually. I love when a lot of people discuss things, but I just want to, yeah, I want to clear up a couple of things though, because one, I thinks, unfortunately, I Think some people aren't, you know, agree or disagree with my stance. That's totally cool. As long as we're keeping all the, you Know, as long as, as Long as we are conceptually clear. One person was, was like, yeah, you're, it's totally fine because everyone is in a stall and no one changes around each other anyway. And it's like, well, no, that's not, that is not really what we're talking about.

0:07:54 Fiona: It was good discussion. It was. No, that's, that'S not always the

0:08:25 Thomas: Yeah.

0:08:25 Fiona: Case.

0:08:26 Thomas: It wasn't the case in my high school. We, you, know, showered together and changed openly and that's how it is. And it's just something, I mean, it sounds a little crude and, and maybe weird to point out, but it's, I think it's important to get the facts straight and get the concepts clear. If, if the rule is going to be, uh, because a lot of high schools I'm assuming are still like how mine still is today. Um, I don't, you know, obviously not all of them, but the sports teams, the, uh or after PE, you go and you just shower openly and that's how it it is. And furthermore, we are very protective of minors when it comes to sexuality like this. I think that a lot of people on the thread, maybe you included, I don't know, perhaps making a little bit light of the amount of protection we do put on minors.

0:08:26 Fiona: No,

0:09:16 Thomas: When it comes to anything sexual, you know, sending a nude picture of yourself as a minor is like child porn in this country. You can actually be, in some ways, charged with possession of child porn.

0:09:29 Fiona: Not in some ways, in, in every way you can, you know, it, it has happened. You're right.

0:09:31 Thomas: Yeah, right, right. Yeah, just it's up to them whether they want to, you know, charge you with that is what I meant to say. They can, they certainly can. And I think that, honestly, I don't care about these kinds of things. I really don't. I mean, if someone is identifying as one sex or gender or the other, I really don't care. But I do think that it's not necessarily a bunch of me that's out there. You know, this is a, we're a country with a bunch of people, half of which are very conservative, or arguably pretty conservative, who, and parents will go, you know, want to have a say in what their kid is doing. So I think we just need to be careful to look at the reality of the situation. And sure,

0:10:18 Fiona: Well, let me, let me counter that with, uh. This point then, um, you're talking about how we are protective and how, you know, things are the way they are, you know, as far as, you know, we do have like, you know, separated facilities and then, you know, it's not always like, you know everybody has their own stall. Sometimes it's public and everything. Um, let me ask you this. Why is it so important that we segregate by gender and why is it so important that we, it's together? Why, why is it so important that not only do we segreg by gender, but we teach that that is the way it should be to children?

0:10:51 Thomas: When it comes to like high school or whatever, honestly don't care about it that much. And that was what I was trying to say. Like, I'm not sure that I could answer that. However, there's, I dunno, 200 million people in this country who do have a very strong answer to that question. And I think that's where it gets a little tough because I don't know that my rules apply to everybody. And furthermore, and I don't know, maybe there comes a point where you just have to sort of enforce, maybe on a court level, certain things on people. It's kind of what happened with gay marriage and that's definitely been a positive, I think, but I don't' t really have a good reason for that other than we' ve decided at a high school, I' ll just talk about my experience.

0:10:54 Fiona: Yeah.

0:11:40 Thomas: At a public high school, a government kind of funded place, we're not going to endorse minors being naked with each other. They just aren't. I mean, that's our society. Minors of different sexes are not to be just naked with Each Other endorsed by the government. And you've got me in terms of why that's terribly important. I think that it does become important when you look at some of the age differences. I mean, you could be turning just about 19 at high school and in my high school, if you were, you know, intermingling showers, you Could be showering with a 13 year old girl. Like it gets, it gets a little creepy to think about. And I don't know. I mean I don't have a, I guess I don't have a great answer for you.

0:12:26 Thomas: But do you at least see that the way our society is currently structured, that that's just something we do, you know?

0:12:35 Fiona: I absolutely agree that it's, you know, it's basically a tradition, you know, that's just the way we operate. But the way I see it also is kind of just sets up a bunch of artificial taboos. You know, we shame people for nudity. It a shameful thing, we teach people, especially girls, and I think this is – I think you're kind of treading into feminism's territory when you start talking about this. But we start teaching them that you should cover yourself in public, and when you really dig down to it, it's like, well, why are we teaching this? And then you kind of get into, well, because we do. And the answer is simply, well that's the way we do it.

0:13:22 Fiona: You dig further and then you get into, well, maybe it's so that we want to protect them from sexual predators or something like that. Because you were talking about 19 year olds and 13 year olds showering together. And okay, well, why don't we just teach children not to be sexual predators? You know, instead of of trying

0:13:43 Thomas: Do you think that's a teachable thing? Like, do you think it's a matter of teaching? I don't really see it that way.

0:13:46 Fiona: Uh, you know, in a way, um, I think so. Cause I think, A large part of misogyny and bigotry is learned. You know, you learn it from your parents, you learned it from society around you.

0:14:00 Thomas: See, I don't know. Don't you think you... I think you unlearn it. I mean, I think that if there's anything that... It's like I said before. I mean, if there's anything that's innately human, it's racism and tribalism. I think think it's up to, to parents and society to help us unlearn that, uh, to a certain extent, but I could be wrong. I don't know. Maybe that's something but, but when it comes to like deviancy in a, in a criminal sense, like real severe sexual criminals, I don't know that you can just teach them not to be that, but I don't know. But I, but I also think we're getting distracted from the issue.

0:14:24 Fiona: Oh, you, you have a point there. Um. You. Know. I'd be remiss not to uh give that to you but but um you know going I think I I you're not going to eliminate it through um through education but I think you'll minimize it through education, let me put it that way.

0:14:51 Thomas: Well, I don't know. And I think we might be getting a little distracted here. I think that, yeah, yeah.

0:14:54 Fiona: We could um you know, more more to the point, um, when I was talking about, uh, taboos, you know, and learn taboos, um, in your, in your situation with, you maybe somebody who's just come out and so, uh, let's say it's, um, somebody who was born a boy and now they identify as a girl and, um, they want to go shower and use the, you know, female facilities. Well, in that circumstance, maybe it's awkward. Maybe it's strange. But in the Facebook thread, we kind of got into it, advanced that a few years.

Um, let's say it's somebody who, um, and this is happening more and more with, you know, younger children, you know, as we're able to diagnose this condition, you know, in, you know, you could have a high schooler who has, you know, all the physical features of a girl but has the bits of a boy, and you know, it's like, well, what do you do with that person? You know, you you throw them into the boy's locker room because, hey, you know, you've got a penis, you know, everything else says girl, you know, what do you doing with that? And you, you, in in the Facebook thread, you kind of, you kind of hand waved it off and you said, you know, I gave an example, it was

0:16:27 Fiona: An older person.

0:16:26 Thomas: Well, it was because it was a specific person. You're right. I didn't spend enough time on that. And I think you're right to call me out on that because it could be. But I do think what I did say about that is, can this be the sort of thing that is a case by case basis? Is that possible? I mean, because I really think that there's a big difference.

0:16:30 Fiona: Right.

0:16:45 Thomas: But yeah,

0:16:43 Fiona: I mean, ultimately, it has to be case by case basis. But then you start having to ask really tough questions like, well, where do you draw that line? Right.

0:16:53 Thomas: Well, I think things aren't easy. I just think in life, especially being an atheist, I don't think anyone's making things easy on us as humans, especially when we're trying to deal with laws and stuff that are supposed to apply to everybody. I think it's really difficult. And that's, yeah, no,

0:17:09 Fiona: And going back to my Point about being less about sexuality for us and being more about identity, take that situation where you have even that person who hasn't gone far in their transition yet, and are you the person who's going to tell them that I understand you identify as that but you're still, you don't, are you the one who dictates to that person who they are?

0:17:41 Thomas: But I think there's more than that involved, to be honest. Like, and this is the difficulty of the conversation. What if you, okay, if you're in the situation, not you, but if we're talking about a hypothetical where someone has just decided they, not, sorry, not just decided to come out that they are the wrong gender and they identify as the other gender. Commander, do you craft a policy that, A, weeds out troublemakers? Because that is honestly something you have to consider. When you're talking about a law for the entire country, is there some level of scrutiny you have to put it to? These are things I really don't know. Or is it the minute someone appears to earnestly say, you know, oh, really?

0:18:01 Fiona: And You know, I hate to go back to them, but, um, South Park did an episode about that. There was an episode, yeah, where, um, uh, one of the characters, uh, Eric Hartman, he was exactly that, he, he was doing it, um, it wasn't, you know, to see girls in the locker room, he was doing it just to have his own bathroom or to use, to use the nicer bathroom.

0:18:34 Thomas: Feel free.

0:18:50 Thomas: Yeah.

0:18:50 Fiona: Was what it was. Um, and, uh, you know, it's, it, that's gonna be there, but you're gonna get that, you're going to get those troublemakers no matter what you do, so you kind of have to, you kind of have to always factor in that you're to have, you know, X percentage of people who take advantage of the system, them.

0:18:51 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:19:08 Thomas: Well, to provide the count argument, I mean, you wouldn't, what kind of, what do you mean when, if the policy is anyone with a penis showers together and anyone with the vagina showers together, how do you get the, the troublemakers there?

0:19:21 Fiona: Well, I mean, and that's, you know, we were, we kind of rabbit trailed off into, you know, um, you know, bathrooms and, you know, who uses what bathroom, as far as that goes, but, uh, that's where I get into my personal feelings is like, well, why are we inserting this artificial taboo of your genitals decide which bathroom he is, and it really is artificial because if you if you you if you raise people in a situation where that's a given, that you know you just everybody uses like a, a bathroom area, you know, a shower area or whatever, then that taboo goes away because it's just not taboo, you know, like it's, it's an everyday occurrence, um, take uh to

0:19:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:44 Thomas: Well, I don't know. People have it, but is that, do you really, is that how You really feel that in order, I means, is that crucial to your, your argument that we would have to also adopt a view that anyone in a high school of any gender can shower together and it's okay? Is that critical to your view?

0:20:08 Fiona: Uh Don't necessarily know if it's – well, to a certain extent, I think it is a little bit because – all right, so let's – the subject of taboos, as an example, public nudity is something that we – it is taboo in our culture. Um, but say, like, in ancient Greece, public nudity was much less taboo, it being that, you know, it wasn't like, you know, hey, you know, there were terrible things in ancient Greece, you know, all over the place because of this, because that's the way their culture was, it was, it was less of, it was les of an issue. And I think, you know, in, in this case, we kind of We're kind of creating our own boogeyman. We're afraid of something that we've told ourselves we

0:20:26 Thomas: Because that's what I'm talking about. Well, argument

0:21:10 Fiona: Should be afraid of.

0:21:12 Thomas: To that, though. Do you not think that there's any entitlement to privacy when it comes to maybe women wanting to keep certain things private from men or vice versa when it comes to changing and showering? And you think it's all just the artificial taboo?

0:21:27 Fiona: Well, what about in, let's say, your situation when you were in high school? You said that you just had open shower rooms and everybody showered and you kind of dropped the towel and did what you had to do and that was it. It, your situation, how did you, how would somebody in your situation have dealt with it, just in an all-male situation, you know, how, how would someone have dealt with the, you know, that desire for privacy, you know, um, is that same desire for privacy is it is, it less important because they were all males? Well,

0:21:49 Thomas: Well, there's no girls. Well, yeah. I will grant you that this is a very hetero oriented tradition that we have. I'll totally grant you that very hetero and very cis gender tradition that we have, because the majority of people are that in this country and throughout society. So, it is very much that. But the typical idea is, well, we're all men. We're all interested in women. There's no women in here. So we can kind of do whatever we want. No one's going to judge us. And we're not worried about anyone seeing our private parts or anything. And that's kind of the attitude. I'm surprised. Is that not normal? Do I go to a weird weird high school or something. Like, it seems like from what, from what I've been talking about this, it's like, yeah, that's how it was for us.

But, but anyway, I think that you told everybody today that, you know, they have to start liking a different kind of food that tastes terrible to them, you can say the same things like, well, other people like this food and the world doesn't end, and that's all fine. And when it comes to these, I guess, I don't know, preferences with societal kind of norms and traditions, I'm not saying that there's some great reason why this exists, but I am saying when you live in a country, in a democracy, in society, who gets to to decide those. I don't think that you and I can just sit here and dictate that it's okay if a 16-year-old male showers with a 16-year-old female in high school openly.

0:23:34 Thomas: I mean, we can feel like that's fine, but that's not the majority view. It will not fly with the majority of our society.

0:23:42 Fiona: I think you have to, I think you have, keep in mind, and you're talking about majority views, um, you know, in a democracy, democracy doesn't ensure that you get the correct answer, it ensures you get that ensures that you get the majority opinion, that's

0:23:53 Thomas: No, not at all. Not at all! I totally understand that. I think you're absolutely right. And I think that it's a good thing we don't always run things that way. Like I said, with the gay marriage decision, it wasn't a majority decision. It was the Supreme Court, you know, ruled on it. And that's the law of the land now. There are some people who think that that's not a good way of doing things, even if they agreed with the decision. That's maybe a debate for people who are, I don't know, smarter than us. But I just think it's, I Don't know. Maybe I'm having a hard time communicating it. I don't know that, Personally, if it were me, I think it would be case by case. I think if someone is, you know, like you, you genuinely, it's sort of like a sincerely held religious belief. You know, that's something that's written into our laws oftentimes, and I find it hard to imagine evaluating that for someone else. But same goes with this. This.

0:24:25 Fiona: Probably correct, yeah.

0:24:53 Fiona: I think you know, earlier you talked about, you know, uh, you kind of, uh, compared it to, you know, trying to change the type of food people eat, um, and I I think that's a good I think that's actually a good example, um, you can't necessarily expect things to change over there. I, I think it would be a mistake to just, like, have, you know, the Supreme Court all of a sudden pass a decision where all restrooms will be, you know, all genders, all of the sudden. I think that would be mistake. Don't get me wrong. But I think, I think it's important that we start having these discussions. And I think it's important that we try to get people to be a little more open-minded about not just their opinions, but why they hold those opinions. Because I think what it is, is when you get somebody down to the point where their only defense of a decision that's made is, that's the way it's been,

0:25:03 Thomas: Well, that, that was just when it, yeah, sure.

0:25:54 Fiona: Is that's when you need to go, hey, maybe we should rethink this.

0:26:00 Thomas: Yeah, but I, I agree. Okay. I want to say that philosophically, I absolutely agree with you. And I don't, I really don't have strong preferences about these things, but I'm, I'm trying to, and I think this is maybe a difficulty we're having in this conversation. I'm trying to think in terms of public policy. I really am Like what, like tangibly, what should we do here? And yeah,

0:26:22 Fiona: Maybe being a little bit more practical. No, well,

0:26:25 Thomas: I, honestly, I don't mean, you know, I don't means any offense, but I think that, that, you're talking a little bit about an ideal situation and I don't think we're there. And when, here's what, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. It talked about a case and I can't remember how high it went in the courts, But there was someone who was, you know, anatomically male who wanted to, who identified as female and wanted to use the locker room and everything. And the school had set aside a private area for them to change in and they actually appealed and that, even that was looked at as not adequate. So, and discriminatory.

0:27:08 Fiona: I mean, to be perfectly honest with you, maybe, um, if, if I were forced to try to be the most practical about this that I could, um, my best suggestion would be something along the lines of, something along, along the line of, maybe we need to start introducing the concept of gender neutral bathrooms, you know, restroom facilities and changing rooms where it's, it's an optional thing. You know, it's, it's, you know, okay, so we'll have male and female, but then we'll also have, you know, a neutral bathroom where if you go in there, it's going to be what it is and I think um I mean, it would give people a place to, you know, all right, so you know, Johnny is just came out and explained to people that he's really Jane, and that, um, he's gonna start, or she's gonna start transitioning. So, you can see even I trip over pronouns

0:27:31 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't mind that. Yeah.

0:28:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:07 Fiona: From time to time, but, uh, but help, you know, give them a place to where they can go and they can take care of things the way they need to do it.

0:28:17 Thomas: Yeah, I think that's a good answer, but I will still say when we're talking about this specific case, this was, or rather I'm talking about the specific case where this was the ruling. Now, I don't, I have a little bit of trouble with that ruling that all of a sudden for all those people and all those parents at that high school, they now have to deal with that. Like it's, it's now this person's right. And I don't know legally if there's any threshold for, now I understand, I want to say, emphasize too, I'm sorry, I am getting a little convoluted here.

I take pretty much 99.999% of, of people at their word when it comes to this thing. I understand that people don't go making up the fact that they are transgender. I get that. But I do think when you're dealing with a law that has to apply to the entire country, country, there could be people who do just do it because they want to, and do you have any way of, as a, as a, from a legal standpoint, do we have any way of weeding that out? You know, like, is there any way of weeding that out, which is why I wish it was more on a case-by-case thing where it's

0:29:01 Fiona: Maybe

0:29:24 Thomas: Like

0:29:24 Fiona: Well, in that, I mean, I guess there, though. So the ultimate question is, do you want to be free, or do you want to give, you want a, you want to err on the side of protecting the freedom of people to be able to express their gender the way they want to? Or do you wanna err on a side of, well, there are gonna people, there are going to be people that exploit this and will cause trouble. And I mean, ultimately, I guess that's, I don't have the right answer to that. Um, you know, I guess it's, it's which do you, which are you more afraid of happening?

0:30:00 Fiona: Are you afraid of stepping on people's rights? Are You afraid of, people being wronged?

0:29:59 Thomas: Well, yeah, I respect that I think the difficulty too, and I think that's a great point, and I'm, I'm certainly fully willing to side with people being free to express their gender. But I think maybe the difficulty, like I referenced earlier, is how this goes along with other laws and traditions that we have. Right now, if at that high school, same high school, a straight cisgender male student just barged into the women's locker room, like they would be legitimately charged with a, a crime. And, and they may, they may have to register as a sex offender. And I think that's the difficulty that people are having. And that I think specifically conservatives in this country would have is like, how do you square those two things? Like, well, on one hand, something's a sex crime.

On the other hand, this is a totally endorsed way that not only is it okay, it's going to be something your daughter has to allow, like has to be okay with, you know, like, I think think that's the difficulty people are having. And I don't know, I just think it's a difficult problem. Personally, I think it, I might have been, I may have disagreed with the idea that providing a private changing room for that person or a private stall, I mean,

0:30:39 Fiona: Mm-hmm. I

0:31:24 Thomas: Is that unreasonable to say that that's okay? Like that, to me, I understand it's not optimal, but I just don't know that there is an optimal solution for everybody involved.

0:31:34 Fiona: Mean, there's, there, there's, there's not gonna be an optimal solution for everybody. Because, you know, like you said, you know, everybody's different, and you're gonna have, you're going to have more socially conservative people, you're going to, to have more socially liberal people, um, that's just the way it is. You're gonna have people, they're gonna be totally okay with it, and they're just gonna say, hey, you know, that's the way it is, times are changing, um, it's, I hate to make this comparison, but, like, you get to situations where it's like, well, maybe you're treading awfully close to separate but equal, um, you You know, and, you know, in this specific situation, you know, the way you put it, it's, you're right.

There is no, there is no right answer. It's, it's kind of, it's kind of a scorpion's nest, no matter which way you turn, you're going to get stung. But I guess the question at this point is, do you want to avoid problems, or do, do you want to maybe, maybe you can't avoid problems. So maybe the better solution is to try to build a situation in the future where there's less problems.

0:31:52 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's valid. Yeah yeah.

0:32:46 Fiona: And then you get into territory where I was talking about, which is like, well, maybe we need to start changing minds, you know, instead of, instead of trying to double down for the present, maybe we should simply, let's work for the future.

0:32:46 Thomas: I can see that.

0:33:00 Thomas: Well, I certainly respect that. I think it's a difficult. Here's what I definitely respect. I at least respect you acknowledging that it's a difficult problem, because I think there are, there were people responding who thought I was insane, for even suggesting it's a difficult problem. And that, that's, I don't know. I, I, at least, you know, I think you, hopefully you understand where I'm coming from. Like, I really am not trying to make anyone feel bad for being transgender. Like, I really am not. I just think it's, it's hard when you're dealing with different groups of people and and everybody's, you know, kind of their rights, to be honest. And yeah,

0:33:41 Fiona: It's not an easy situation, and um, the reason that I, the reason that it's easy for me to acknowledge that is because I do realize that to people who don't go through this, it's a completely alien concept, um, that's where I do understand that. Yeah, a lot of people just aren't going to get it. And not to say that you don't get it necessarily, but there's going to be people who maybe aren't as open-minded as you, who, not getting it, not necessarily because they're trying to think about it, but because it doesn't come up in their life. You know, everybody has a point where they've never heard of a transgender person before.

0:33:57 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

0:34:28 Fiona: There's always a first for everybody. So I understand how it could be, you know, a little shocking as a concept, because our genders are such a given the vast majority of people.

0:34:35 Thomas: Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I freely admit it's difficult to relate to. And I apologize to everyone for that. For anybody I can't relate to of any kind, it's hard to see past your own, you know, your own situation. But I do my best and I hope others do their best. And maybe, you know, things will get continue to get better because at least they're getting better, right? I mean, in general, things are getting better in our society for people who are different, I think. And I hope I hope

0:35:08 Fiona: Yeah. Um. You know, there's always a qualifier, we've got a long way to go, but um, it absolutely is better, you know, and I think that's just an objective point of view. Like I said, you know, five, ten years ago, I can't, I couldn't have imagined being in the situation I'm in now. Yes.

0:35:10 Thomas: That's true. Yeah.

0:35:24 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Let's go out on that high note. Thank you so much for coming on, Fiona. Thank you for being, you know, fielding my questions, being open, being, you know. Understanding. And I really appreciate it.

0:35:39 Fiona: For having me on.

0:36:01 Thomas: Well, there you have it. I want to thank Fiona again. Very interesting stuff. I think that that last problem we discussed is a bit of a challenge for me. I mean, I sort of think that a, I still sort of, think that having a neutral kind of separate changing area would be an acceptable compromise. And I also was thinking when, after the fact, I was thinking, when Fiona brought up, you know, separate but equal, Um, I don't know. It's weird because you could already say that the men and women locker rooms, uh, that's already separate, but equal. Um, so I'm not sure what the legal precedent is for that because no one that I know of has ever made that claim that, oh, well, keeping men, you know, girls and boys in high schools in different locker rooms is separate, but equal, you Know, I I've never heard anyone make that claim.

0:36:55 Thomas: So I don't know if there's some special legal precedent for that. So that'd be something else to look into. I'm curious to hear what you guys thought of this whole discussion. I imagine there's going to be a range of responses from, I can't believe you wouldn't just let anyone shower with anyone in high school, to maybe you're right. Who knows? So I'll be curious to hear people's reasoning. And I'm definitely, definitely open to arguments on either side. One other consideration I saw after this, there was a story about a six-year-old and the six-year-old's parents. I can't remember, honestly, now the genders. I cannot remember now, but it was either a girl who was being called a boy or vice versa, and the parents were insisting on it.

0:37:46 Thomas: And that brought up another wrinkle just in general. How early is this sort of thing, you know, valid? Because if it's a five or six year old, do they really know the decision they're making? Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe if they say one day, call me a boy, sure, call him a boy. I'm not saying there's anything at stake, really, at that age. There's not much at stake. Mistake, but this, in this particular story, the parents were insisting on it and insisting all the teachers call the girl, uh, someone who was born a girl, a boy, um, at at the age of six. It seems like, is that, or is that too early for the the kid to really know? Like, is there an age where you think like, oh, maybe they're just goofing around, maybe, you know, I don't know, little things like this, um. Um, but by all means, these are just the, the very finer points.

0:38:45 Thomas: And I, I hope I emphasized that enough through the discussion. These are just very minor questions I have. They're not a huge, I, the biggest deal I think, and I think Fiona would agree is that I absolutely respect, uh, transgendered people and their identity, uh. And I do my best with the pronouns just as Fiona did. I think Fiona flubbed a pronoun there in the discussion. I thought that was, that was funny because it's, it's it's not easy sometimes, but you know, as long as everyone's heart's in the right place and rights are being respected and identities are being restricted, that's, that'S the main thing. And I'm all for that. I'm All for transgender people using whatever bathrooms they want. These are just the finer points.

0:39:30 Thomas: So I want to emphasize that the very, very minor things and their, their discussions where I'm very much open to every argument. And I, the last thing I want to do is infringe on anyone's, you know, freedom of their identity or anything like that. So just, uh, just interesting problems and interesting discussion. Um, and again, I I'd love to hear your comments on this one because I think there's a, there's lot of nuance to it. As usual, you can support me if you'd like to at patreon.com/atheist, keep the show going, keep conversations like these is happening. I got a great show for you next week, a great interview with a past guest. Maybe I'll leave it a surprise, but it was one of my all-time favorite past guests. Very, very knowledgeable.

0:40:16 Thomas: So that'll be fun. That'll be Thursday's episode. And Monday, I'll get back to the regular commentary. I've got too many things to comment on. I'll have to find a couple. So yeah, patreon.com/atheist if you'd like to support the show. I'd like to thank my all-time greats, my supporters who I love so much. I can't express how much it means to me that you guys support the show. It is just so generous of you. Let's see if I had any new ones. Um, looks like no new patrons this week, but hey, maybe next week. I'm optimistic. No big deal. Uh, so I want to thank My All-Time Greats, Zimu Zinu, Adrian Borschoff, Michael, Jonathan Jonathan Moyet, Jay Aldenwalt, Bangs Naughty Bits, Peter Skelton, Brian Gerfort, Dale, Matt Garrett, and honorable mention to Samantha there for my top supporters. All right. Thank you, guys, and I will see you next week.