AS164: John Stuart Mill, Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello and welcome to the late episode 164 of Atheistically Speaking with your echoey host Thomas Smith. Alright, it's the first time I've been late in... I think it's the second time ever. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's a second time every I think when I when I spilled my water on my laptop mid mid-recording, actually the end of recording. I think that was the only time, that was the first time I missed, I think, that whole week. And then after that, I don't think I've ever missed one. I could be, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I have been on the spot, prompt. And I want to be, I want you guys to be able to count on the show. And you can count on the show, but this has been hell.

0:01:19 Thomas: So, I feel like I owe some explanation. So as as I've mentioned, I've been buying a house that it went through just an absolute nightmare with the appraisals. I can't, I can't remember how much I've MENTIONED this. I don't think I've talked too much about it, but well, anyway, I'll be brief because we got, I want to get to the actual episode, but anyway, um, it was, it went back and forth. We ended our lease because we thought everything was great. We were told it was all hunky-dory and great. And then it came back and it wasn't actually hunky dory and great. Um, so I'm told this happens a lot with houses, but whatever it was, it was a pain. So we were living in another house two hours away from work. That was horrible, uh, for the commute and stuff, but we made it work.

0:02:07 Thomas: I could still record there and then very slowly upload on the 0.5 upload, uh 0.05 megabit upload internet took quite a while actually. But now we moved into the new house, but this coincided with what is the worst time at my work all year. Now there's never a great time. I work, I work a lot of overtime. Uh, but this is like a particularly bad time because it's probably the biggest process we do when I'm in charge of it, uh, for my unit anyway. And, uh so I had to work until midnight. I literally stayed all the way from, from came in in the morning, you know, eight 30 or whatever. And I worked all the way until midnight and it was exhausting.

0:02:56 Thomas: And that was the night I was supposed to record these episodes. And then the next day I had to, um, I had several delivery people cause we didn't have a fridge. We didn't have a washer and dryer. We didn't have internet. We didn't have TV, none of that. I scheduled basically them all for the same day. I thought we'll just get all over within one day. My plan had been to record episodes and then go to like a, you know, a Starbucks or something with wifi and upload them. Um, but I didn't, I just, I worked until midnight. I didn't have time. Uh, and I was just exhausted and I had to be up early to stay home to actually work from home. Cause I still wasn't done working to work from home, but also let the delivery people in.

0:03:42 Thomas: And this leads me to the next part of my boring story. I'll try to keep this quick. I was going to say long story short, but by the time you get to that point when you're like, well, long story, short, like you've already taken too long. So it's already too long, but just to wrap that up, I had to manage several delivery people working at one.

They all showed up at the same time, even though they had a large window, you know, it's usually eight to 12, whatever. They all show up at once pretty much, except the one guy who was coming later in the afternoon. Noon, and at one point they had left the door open and I could not find my cats. I found, I have three cats now, I could find the kitten, she was around, she's too dumb to hide or found her.

Uh, couldn't find the girl or the boy. Eventually found the girl and then I looked for an hour in the house for boy. Keep in mind, this is an empty house, this is a new, there's not, there's no place to hide, like we have some stuff in here,

0:04:40 Thomas: But I looked forever in a new house for Mr. Kitty, everyone's favorite podcat, the only reason anyone listens to this show. It's my podcat Mr. kitty, who I don't get to have on the show anymore, really. He was on T and the B back in the day, but anyway, my favorite cat, Mr. Kitty, I was convinced he had gotten out the door, and he does usually try to get outdoors when the doors open, so it fit his character. I'd looked everywhere. So you already know how the story ends because, because of how I've told it. And then I started looking outside because I was like, well, I must be outside. Um, there's no chance of finding, I mean, that's the weird thing. A cat gets one foot outside and you may never find it.

0:05:27 Thomas: You probably will never find it. Like you could just go anywhere. It's impossible to find. I guess that's why they're predators. But anyway, um, they're very evasive. They're very hidden. And I looked outside for about 20 minutes. Lydia was coming home from work, she was crying, she thought we lost Mr. Kitty. I thought we lost Mr. I wasn't convinced, I was still in denial, I was like, where the heck is he? And it turned out, I went back inside, I was, I had been rattling his favorite snacks the whole time like a little bag, he always comes out, and he hadn't come out, and this was, was, again, a long time. I go back inside. I go up the stairs to look for the, I don't know, 90th time in all the rooms just to make sure. And he came up the stairs behind me.

0:06:16 Thomas: I have, I will never know where he was. I will never know where my cat is. It was, there's no place he could have hidden. It was the weirdest thing. So probably, you know, God did it, of course. It's a a miracle. No, I just there must be some place that I didn't think to look or, or whatever. But I don't think I'll ever know where that place is. So that brings me to current time. I still had to try to work from home because work still wasn't done. I this is already late, late Friday night for sorry, Thursday night for me Friday morning for me. And I just have to do this episode. I don't want to delay anymore, but my studio is not at all set up. So I'm sitting on the floor in what's going to be my studio.

0:07:05 Thomas: I'm looking forward to it. It's going be great, but there's no soundproofing. So it's very echoey. Normally I bought a bunch of soundproof proofing. I love it. Makes it sound great. Makes us sound not so echoey, but it's not up yet.

0:07:25 Thomas: It's story stuff. But this will be the last, I promise you, the last weird episode of all this moving and house buying stuff. Then we will go back to a nice flow of real episodes with real internet. Oh, my internet's here, by the way. That was the one benefit. I get to upload this show at about 50 because I signed up for really good internet so that I would always be able to give you good interviews, even though sometimes Skype doesn't cooperate on the other side. So there we are. All right. I'm going to waste no more time. So thanks for sitting through that. I just wanted to let people know what was going on because I'm never late with the show, and that's why it was, just there was no way. There was no time that I could do it. It was crazy.

0:08:13 Thomas: Okay. So John Stuart Mill. We've already began our reading last week. What we were talking about when we ended was how his father, James Mill, you'll remember. So, John Stuart Mill is the son. James Mill is the father and the Holy Spirit. And James Mill had moral reasons for not believing in God. We talked about, he thought, you know, God could not create hell. There wouldn't be so much suffering, basic stuff. So now for the next part, that was where we left off. For the next part, John Stewart Mill is talking about how his father's beliefs, chiefs, impacted his upbringing in this way. So, John was brought up with no religion, as you might have guessed, but this quote is interesting. Quote, it would have been wholly inconsistent with my father's ideas of duty to allow me to acquire impressions contrary to his convictions and feelings respecting religion.

0:09:09 Thomas: And respecting not mean actual respect, but meaning, you know, regarding religion. And this is interesting, because it sort of explains what I talked about last week, or sorry, I see I said last week because it's been so long, Monday, because it was a little weird that James Mill decided John Stuart Mill would essentially be engineered to carry on his legacy, you know? I thought that was, I don't know, it doesn't seem exactly kosher to me. But James Mill, so this answers that a little bit. I still don't probably agree with it fully, but James Mill looked at it as a duty, a moral duty to teach his son not to believe in religion or to be an atheist, or I don't know how exactly he would phrase it, but he taught him that religions are, you know, they're just commonplace.

0:10:03 Thomas: There's lots of religions. There's religions here, religions there. They're all different, and none of them are right. And he saw that as his duty. So in reading that, I was thinking about how I've talked to a lot of atheist parents, and a lot of people take the point of view that, oh, I'm just going to teach my child skeptical principles, scientific principles, teach them how to think, and then they'll make the decisions for themselves, and of course, we're all thinking, you know, they're going to choose atheism. They'd better choose atheism. If they make the decision for themselves or his or herself to be religious, then it's, you know, it's a little weird. I mean, I'm sure it will be fine, but anyway, that's the approach I hear people taking, but I wonder what this is a result of. I know that James Mill was very duty-based and very, you'll hear later, John Stuart Mill is going to describe him a bit more.

0:11:07 Thomas: He was stern. He was stoic. He was like literally a stoic, like in the Greek sense. And maybe he just thought that, especially in that time when everyone was religious pretty much, that he needed to, you know, inoculate his son against that. So who knows what his motives were, but I thought that was fascinating. So I wonder if anyone, I wonder, so are there any atheist parents out there who do think, feel that way?

Like it is your duty to teach your kid to be an atheist. I'm sure there are. And it would be, that would be an interesting topic of discussion, I'm Sure. So let's see where we are. Then he brings up the, if God made us, who made God problem, which I want to say, I want to talk briefly about. Out, he lists that as a reason, you know, why James Mill didn't believe in God. And I don't know if I find that all too terribly convincing lately. So I was thinking a bit about this and I want to share my thoughts. The who made God part, it seems like you can very easily sidestep that and religious people do by just saying, well, God has always been there. No one made him. Anything infinite, anything that's been around forever, no one has to have made, they'll say.

0:12:27 Thomas: And there are problems with this answer, of course, but I think it does actually fix the who made God part.

0:12:37 Thomas: Here's my thoughts. Just the fact that we are here, you and I are here. Well, I know I'm here. I don't know if you're here, but you and and I exist, we open our eyes in the world, we become conscious, just that fact alone means there is something that just existed. There's something. I don't know whether or not it's God, whether or not it is the multiverse, whether it is laws of physics, just the way reality is. Whatever it is, is there is something that existed for no apparent reason. It's either God, who existed for a no apparent reason, or the universe. So, the reason I'm saying this is when I hear atheists say, well, if God made us, what made God?

0:13:26 Thomas: And then, you know, they just say well, God always existed. And they say, yeah, God can't always exist. It's like, well... But at the same time, any scientific explanation involves something thing that just exists for no reason. We can't really put a reason to it. There's going to be something fundamentally that we can't say, ah, there, that existed, and that all makes sense. It's all great. It'll never make sense. I mean, I don't think I'm being too closed-minded about science. I'm pretty sure, I mean you just fundamentally, logically speaking, you can can only get down to a certain level of assumptions. You can only get down, like a law, when there's some sort of physical law, you can only gets down to the point of, well, this happens in these conditions.

0:14:15 Thomas: This, whatever it might be, this tiny principle, this grand principle or this minor principle dealing with things really small or really big, it just is, and there's no further level of explanation. So, I don't know. I was just thinking about that, and I I don't really find that that convincing, who made God. It doesn't really, I actually don't think it is a good objection to religion. So I thought I'd throw that out there, see what anyone thinks. So let's see where we are here. And James Mill made sure John got plenty of education about different religions and particularly about the Reformation, which I find interesting. So he cared a lot about that, despite being an atheist.

0:15:01 Thomas: James Mill cared a lot about that. In the next paragraph here, John remarks that he is a very rare example of someone in his country who was raised without religion. And as a result, he merely looked at current religion no different than ancient religions that none of us believe in. So there's a really good quote here. I like this. History had made the variety of opinions among mankind a fact familiar to me, and this was but a prolongation of that fact.

0:15:31 Thomas: I think that's such a, it's a sick burn. It's just such a like, a great understatement. So he's pretty much taking these beliefs that people hold to be so precious, and that people are so dedicated to them, that people have so much faith in them, and they're so dedicated to them. People are fervent about these beliefs. He says, essentially, he says like, yeah, you know, know, people have their opinions. Humans throughout history have had various opinions on things, and here's one of those things, you know. And I, it's a really great quote, I like it a lot. It just, uh, it just really, it kind of belittles it, but not, not in like an arbitrary way, or not in a, not in, uh, condes- well, now it is kind of condescending, but not in like a childish way. It's a very, it's a very intellectual and and an honest way. I think it's not trying to be too insulting. It's just like, yeah, people have different opinions, and that's, that's what I think about your religion.

0:16:31 Thomas: So I like it. One interesting thing, though, he keeps saying that his father raised him not to believe, but he also raised him, as James Mill also raised him, to keep his thoughts about religion to himself. And this is interesting, I wonder why. And maybe it's just because, again, the time was so different, you know, people were more religious. Where maybe in James's life he was a a shark cry from, I don't know, from some sort of inquisition.

I don't know how the timing works out, but, uh, he probably wouldn't have been a part of that, but it could have been more relevant to his life, and that mentality of being afraid about that kind of of thing could have been more relevant to his life. Whatever the, that's just speculation on my part. Whatever the reason, um, John Stuart Mill didn't really heed this advice. He says that the only reason he ended up not engaging people on it was because he actually didn't get to spend time with anyone, because part of his, you know, incredible education, uh, and, and this, this might border on child abuse by the way, but part of his incredibly tense, uh, intense education, was that he wasn't allowed to socialize with pretty much anyone.

But he says there were two times in particular that he remembered trying to talk to debating friends about atheism. And he says one time the friend was so, you know, just taken aback that he didn't know what to say. And then the other friend was shocked but tried to talk him into Christianity. So that's interesting. So he only got to talk about it twice, um, but yeah, and then in the next paragraph here, John

0:18:15 Thomas: Talks about, he thinks times have changed a lot since his father raised him. So this is funny to me, because, you know, to me it was all just the 1800s, like, there's, what's the difference between 1806 and 1840? I don't know, nothing, that's all just cowboys, right? Is that it's every, that's what the 1800s is, I think, that's, that's my firm grasp on history. But, uh, but he, but no, apparently things change quite a bit in one man's lifetime, because he says that people are much more willing to discuss things in this day, in his day and age, you know? And he thinks that if his father raised him now, that his father wouldn't have done that. He would have allowed him to express his atheism and stuff like that.

0:19:05 Thomas: But so here's a good quote. The world would be astonished if it knew how great a proportion of its brightest ornaments of those most distinguished, even in popular estimation for wisdom and virtue, are complete skeptics in religion. So this is a pretty common theme. Even back then, the smartest people, no, maybe not, but a lot of the best people, in his opinion, and a lot of the most wise and virtuous people are atheists, which is no shock to you and I, I'm sure, but was probably a shock to people back then. But here's the interesting thing.

He goes on to then say that he thinks most of them aren't in the closet due to fear for themselves, but actually due to a fear that their atheism, if they talk about God not existing, that once other people lose their faith, the the world will become a worse place. And this is, a this is fascinating. It's sort of like how Dennett talks about with free will, uh, he worries, he can sometimes worry, or at least he's, he entertains the question that, uh, you know, it's worth thinking about, if the idea of free will not existing had such dire consequences that people would really really behave a lot worse, it's worth considering not, you know, not making that idea known and not trying to write books about it and all that.

0:20:41 Thomas: So he's talked about that. But this is also like the atheist butt thing, you now, like, well, I'm an atheist, but people need religion. I'm an atheist. But stop talking about this, because people really need their in order to behave well, well, they need to believe in a God, and the common response that people like Richard Dawkins and others will have is that's condescending, and that how elitist is it to say, well, I'm fine, I can be an atheist, but look at all these other little people, they can't handle not believing in God. The thing is, it might kind of be true. It might be a little bit true, at least, because I mean, it's just a fact that, that we don't live in a world where everyone's on equal footing in terms of their intellectual capability.

0:21:31 Thomas: And I don't know, maybe there are, I think there are a lot of people that might have a hard time if they didn't have religion or, you know, they might behave worse. I don't know, but maybe not. Maybe that has nothing to do with it, the two things have nothing to do with each other because prisons are riddled with believers. So it might end up being that while some people need religion, of course, for the most part, it doesn't actually change your behavior. I don't know that it's the most important factor when it comes to moral behavior, because again, prisons full of religious people. So anyway, that's funny, though, that even back then, he thinks that people are mostly concerned. Now, keep in mind, John Stuart Mill didn't think this.

0:22:18 Thomas: He didn't think that was a valid concern. He thought people would be fine if they didn't believe in God anymore. But he thinks that a lot of people disagree with him. So, fascinating. Next, he talks about the fact that there are many different kinds of believers, but he likes the ones who are actually religious. Like, who actually act religious and do what that entails. Not just people who try to look religious or try to use the name of what's the quote he says, something like, oh, that who exclusively arrogate themselves to the title, um, or sorry, arrogate to themselves the title. So they're just saying, yeah, I'm religious, but not actually. So in his mind, being religious sounds like it means something a little bit positive, because he then goes on to talk about, he says that he, he, he laments that people think deists can still be religious.

0:23:17 Thomas: He actually says in a very humorous and typical old person thing like, you know, kids these days kind of thing. He has this quote like, well, nowadays people just say whatever and they're able to, you know, believe contradictory things and all this. He totally does like that. Kids, get off my lawn. Back in my day. You know, he does that kind of thing. And he says that because of that, people think that deists can be religious. But then he says, well, if deists Can be religious, then why not? You know, those are people who don't accept Christian or I guess any denomination claims. They're skeptical of claims. You know? Then he says well, then, why can't anyone who's skeptical of deists still be religious?

0:24:05 Thomas: So, he essentially says if they can be religious anyone can. And so, that's his argument against that. In this next paragraph, he talks about the fact that James Mill really modeled himself after Socrates, or maybe not necessarily modeled himself after, but John Stuart Mill thought that James Mills was in that way, was very stoic, like I said before, and was very much in the character of Greek philosophers. And he had, James Mill had very strong moral convictions. So he was an atheist again, but had very strongly moral convictions, namely justice, temperance, veracity, perseverance, and readiness to encounter pain, and especially labor in regard for the public good.

And of course, that makes sense for a utilitarian, and that person would kind of uh, subscribe to that. Uh, next paragraph is, like, one sentence, so I might as well just read it. But though direct moral teaching does much, indirect does more, and the effect my father produced on my character did not depend solely on what he said or did with that direct object, but also instill more on what manner of man he was. And I think this is always true. I mean, I mean, it seems to me that the actual parenting that happens is more in how you act than just the things you say.

0:25:39 Thomas: And that can be good, but that can bad, actually. I think it actually more often is bad, because when you think about it, it would be much better for humans if parenting came down to like telling your kids a few things, because you could be totally a crappy person, but then you're like, oh man, I want to have great great kids. So let me just tell them like, hey, kids, work hard, you know, stay in school, don't do drugs, or something. You know, don't, don't do too many drugs. And just, if you could just say all those things, then it would work out. But, but in reality, I really think you're just, you model after your parents and how they act. And, more realistically, unbeknownst to John Stuart Mill, perhaps, it's pretty genetically determined, but we won't go there.

0:26:28 Thomas: For the sake of John Stewart Mill, it's more about how his father acted. And I guess in light of that, he goes on to describe, and the final paragraph is very long, and it describes just rapid fire all this stuff about his dad. And we'll cut, well, let's see, let's see what we can go through. I'm not going to go go through all of it, but we'll find some tidbits here.

Well, one big takeaway actually is how stoic, as in, he's willing to work, like he, that's James Mill, and and actually not just willing to work, it sounds like, my, from this long long paragraph about him, it sounds like James Mill was, well, maybe not the most pleasant guy to be around. He was very dedicated to work, he didn't really believe in pleasure actually, it's not just, oh, he wants to work, it's, it's like he didn't, he says he deemed very few pleasures worth the price, which at least in the present state of society must be paid for them. So maybe that, again, as a result of the time, let me, let's see, the greatest number of miscarriages in life he considered to be attributable to the overvaluing of pleasures. And I can agree with that. That's probably, I mean, well, that's everything of life. That's all of life, look, it's, we're trying to find pleasures.

And so naturally, anything that goes wrong is probably a result of us trying to find pleasures because that's what we do in life. But that was his. And I know they had a lot of tension, as I mentioned, I think I mentioned this Monday or maybe I just read it. There's quite a bit of tension between them as regards John Stuart Mill's choice of wife.

0:28:11 Thomas: And I think it came down to this work ethic and this unwillingness to really give in to any sort of personal pleasures. So, that's an interesting character. Very stoic, very hard, very, you know, stern character. But he goes, so he says some more stuff about that, but then there's a part at the very end here, the last chunk, that I think is interesting to talk about. Because he talks about, let's see, all this is merely saying that he, in degree once common, common, but now very unusual, threw his feelings into his opinions, which truly is difficult to understand how anyone who possesses much of both can fail to do. None but those who do not care about opinions will confound it with intolerance.

0:29:01 Thomas: So, and he goes on, and essentially what he's saying there is that James Mill was a very opinionated, very passionate person. And John John Stuart Mill is saying he gets annoyed a little bit with people who don't understand that. He says people who do not have opinions and all that, and that is a battle I have. I mean, a lot of people in life are just, they might have their opinions, but they are just more interested in being social and just getting along, so they will sort of agree with whatever you say, which I hate. That is one of my least favorite qualities in someone. I would rather they just completely disagree with me if, or just say what they actually think. And I sort of sense a bit of that too in this writing.

0:29:46 Thomas: It's, so he's saying that James Mill just really cared about, and he also goes on to say, but he wasn't, he disliked, he paints a fine point. He says James Mill likely disliked people who disagreed with him and dislikes because of their disagreement, like just dislike them because of their opinions, because he valued his opinions highly. But he says that dislike didn't translate to any maltreatment or anything, just merely he's so passionate about what he believes that he disliked other people for it. And it's sort of a fine line. I don't know if I buy it. It's an interesting thought, and maybe it's true. Maybe it was true for James Mill. He sounds like he was a very interesting, special person, not exactly like your typical guy.

0:30:36 Thomas: But the way he paints it out is that he really, he disliked people for disagreeing with him because he cared about it so much, but he didn't treat them any differently. And he, and John Stuart Mill, the end of this is he goes on to say, like, that's the highest form of tolerance. That's the only, when you talk about tolerance, John Stuart Mill says this is the only valid version of that.

Tolerance where you tolerate that they have different opinions, you'll listen to their opinions, and you won't do them any harm for their opinions, but you don't have to like them and you don' have to disagree with their opinions. Or sorry, you don'' have to agree and you can argue with them. And that's the one kind of tolerance that really matters.

That's really cool because that's really applicable today because we talk a lot about tolerance, tolerating different beliefs and all that, and particularly a topic of conversation is being tolerant of religion, tolerant of Islam, tolerant to even Christianity, I'd say, in the atheist community. And I think that John Stuart Mill is right here, in that tolerance just means treating people with a certain level of respect and not doing them harm. But it doesn't mean you just ignore what they're saying. It doesn't means you're like, okay, well, you believe that, so I'll just go home, you know, whatever. That sounds like your belief there, soI don't want to touch it. You know, that's not a real form of tolerance. Tolerance is, no, I disagree, here's why, now let's go, you know, get a beer together if you want, you know, that's tolerance, like actually being willing to discuss things, but still

0:32:18 Thomas: Treating people with respect. And unfortunately, I don't find that happens very often. I think that, um, there are a lot of people, and on both sides, I would say that, I think atheists are, this is my opinion, I think atheist are more tolerant than religious people in general when it comes to interacting with each other. I think religious, religious people. And maybe, again, this is biased based on my experience. But I think that, well, actually, I think it's the nature of being a minority group. And again, I don't, I know that's a loaded term, but just being a, a statistical minority, you're going to be a lot more tolerant of the majority, because there's a lot more of them, like it, you know, you just encounter them all the time, whereas the majority, it's easier for them to be intolerant. I think this, this this is how it works out with most statistical minority groups is it's just, it's easier to be intolerant of someone who you don't have to see very often. You know, it's like one comes along and you're like, "Oh, I don't like that. I don't like you, atheist."

0:33:15 Thomas: So that makes sense to me. And I think that atheists do a decent job. But but they're also atheists who are incredibly intolerant of any Christian, or sorry, any religious views.

Views, and I think that it's okay to be intolerant of the view, but it, it's important to treat the person with respect and to be able to say honestly that you don't treat them, uh, with any ill treatment or, or, as, as let's see, if as John Stewart Mill would say, he does them no, no ill office. So that's the note that John Stuart Mill goes out on here, and I think it's a good note. So that is that reading.

Thank you for bearing, uh, the personal story and the delay in the episode, but let's think, I've had a couple new patrons, I think. Oh, no, I just want, Aaron M Gleason thank you, thank you for your pledge, I really appreciate it, you're the best. And now I want to thank my all-time people, of course. Zimu, Zinu Jr, Adrian Borschoff, Michael Jonathan Moye, J Alden Walt, thank you, you very much. Bangs, Naughty Bits, thank you so much. Sean Zipper, Peter Skelton, Brian Gareford, Dale, Matt Garrett, Samantha, and thank you. So I just want to say I'm really lucky to have your guys' support. I'm very fortunate as I look at these names and numbers and stuff. Thank you. It's really, really touching, and it's the reason I was killing myself trying to find a way to get this episode in on time. I ultimately failed, so I apologize for that.

0:34:56 Thomas: But it's out there now, and with this new setup and everything, I might end up using some Patreon funds to improve my studio, make a better product for you guys, and that's the kind of thing I want to do. I just want to bring you the best show I can, and I look forward to being able to do so under more stable circumstances going forward. So thanks for listening for this week. It was a hectic one. Thanks for sticking with me, and I'll see you next week.