AS155: Cognitive Dissonance

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:30 Thomas: Hello and welcome to episode 155 of Atheistically Speaking with your host Thomas Smith. Okay, so as you've seen from the title, I'm sure, Cognitive Dissonance are back. I need to give somewhat of a, I don't want to say warning, I need to give some level of explanation for what you're about to hear. So when we get together, it is a ruckus time. I know that I would say probably a large percentage of my fans are fans of Cognitive Dissonance, so I'm not apologizing for Tom and Cecil at all. I just want to merely point out that we start off on quite the tangents. So the first episode this week is going to be not really even the thing I intended to have them on for.

0:01:21 Thomas: I intended the first one to be Tim Hunt and things like that. And we do. But first, we had a fun time talking about some other stuff completely just out of the blue that I think will end up being pretty interesting and pretty funny, especially if you're fans of Tom and Cecil like I am. They are hilarious and I really enjoy talking to them. But even if you say for some reason aren't a fan of Cogdiss, I just want to let you know that we did end up talking about Free Speech, Tim Hunt, those events and stuff. And so Thursday's episode is a really, really, really long one. I could make that into two episodes and have that be its own thing. But I think just in case for some reason, if there's anyone who doesn't appreciate kind of the tangents and the conversation, the good-natured kind of funny conversation we had in episode one, I wanted to make sure to give you guys sort of double your value for Thursday's episodes.

0:02:20 Thomas: So Thursday's episode will be very, very long. So just a little warning on that, and without further ado, let's get to that good time conversation with Cognitive Dissonance.

0:02:42 Thomas: Welcome to Atheistically Speaking, with two special guests, well, one, one special guest, and one tag-along, I'm not, well I'm, not, I,

0:02:49 Cecil: Oh. Jesus. I

0:02:52 Tom: Cecil, can you believe he would talk about you like that?

0:02:54 Thomas: Uh,

0:02:54 Cecil: Know Why would he call me a special guest, Tom? I don't know why you do that.

0:02:58 Tom: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

0:02:59 Thomas: I'm not gonna say which is which, it's like, it's like, yeah, it's like when, you know, you, know, if you have two kids, you'll know you love one more, but you're not gonna SAY anything, you you know?

0:03:00 Cecil: We have to fight it out with like a knife to see who's, yeah it's true it's true yeah

0:03:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:04 Tom: No,

0:03:11 Cecil: Yeah

0:03:11 Tom: I'm- I fucking say something. I get t-shirts for the one I like better. Like, the better one. Fucking know your place in my house.

0:03:14 Cecil: Oh

0:03:13 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, man. Okay. Well, you've heard them.

0:03:21 Cecil: Before we start can we swear on your show, we're

0:03:22 Thomas: Oh. Well I don't normally, but I also have the explicit tag on, so might as well use it.

0:03:28 Tom: Oh, good.

0:03:30 Cecil: Gonna use the the shit out of that, I'm just saying of

0:03:32 Tom: Yeah.

0:03:31 Thomas: Hey, you know, for you guys, anything, because I love having the fellows from Cognitive Dissonance on the show. Didn't really get to announce you. They just sort of rudely started talking, even, you now, responding to my rude comment. Can you imagine? Tom and Cecil, cognitive dissonance. It's been a while, but it's not, it hasn't been too long. In any case, welcome back to the show.

0:03:42 Cecil: Course, yeah yeah

0:03:55 Thomas: Good to have you.

0:03:55 Tom: It's been a medium long time.

0:03:57 Thomas: Yeah, it's been a little while.

0:03:57 Tom: Medium long. Yeah.

0:03:58 Thomas: I think it was, you

0:03:59 Tom: It's just right. I feel like it's just right. We're baby bear.

0:04:01 Thomas: Know what? I think you're, I think your, you're exactly onto something. There's an alarm that goes off and it's like, I need to have Tom and Cecil on the show, you know, too early. It would be like, nah, people are going to start to see through them a little bit, you know?

0:04:13 Cecil: Yeah.

0:04:14 Tom: Yeah, that alarm says, I've run out of other options, I run out other options. Options I

0:04:15 Cecil: Illegally.

0:04:16 Thomas: No, not at all. So welcome to the show. Last time, I remember we were talking a lot about free speech and people who were being kind of punished for things that they said on some other medium that might have been, I don't know, obtained illegally or without their permission. And then we were we were talking about the legality of firing people for that.

0:04:36 Cecil: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Right. We weren't talking about punishing people, we're talking about firing people, as I recall. So,

0:04:45 Thomas: Sure. Which could be a punishment in some countries. But I mean, I would take it as a punishment, I suppose. But yeah. And there was some disagreement there. And I think you guys are probably ultimately right. But it still seems wrong to me. You know, it still seem wrong. But, I guess, you know, freedom of speech. I don't know. But today, we've got something somewhat related in that I, well, first off, you've been gone a long time from this show. Is there any news? Is there anything major things of importance that have happened for Cognitive Dissonance that you need to announce before we get

0:04:45 Cecil: Yeah. Possibly. No.

0:05:22 Cecil: Literally.

0:05:22 Thomas: Started? All right, let's go right into it.

0:05:23 Cecil: Nothing has happened. We just make shows. That's It Yeah.

0:05:26 Tom: Can't. Imagine What thing of importance could happen on our show?

0:05:30 Cecil: Nothing.

0:05:30 Tom: That's Yeah, I mean other than just We we haven't canceled ourselves yet, although we've gotten close. Our

0:05:31 Cecil: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:05:30 Thomas: Well, Tom, you almost died, right? Right? Yeah. Yeah. You guys are both looking at the numbers. You're like our share, you know, our share is just not very good this season.

0:05:45 Cecil: Our market share.

0:05:46 Thomas: We need to, yeah. Our Nielsen rating.

0:05:46 Cecil: Yeah, yeah.

0:05:46 Tom: Nielsen ratings are down it's tough

0:05:48 Thomas: That's what I was looking for. Yeah, the

0:05:48 Tom: Having a

0:05:49 Cecil: We lost literally one person and we noticed completely.

0:05:50 Tom: Difficult time we're

0:05:52 Thomas: Day they start having those ratings is the day a lot of podcasters, including myself, become very embarrassed. I hope they never get ratings. Wait, it turns out I've been podcasting for three people this entire time. I didn't know that. Um, okay, so but Tom, didn't you, like, almost die? Were you like deathly ill?

0:05:53 Tom: We're I wouldn't say I almost died. I got sick, I, I was a little under the weather. I had some meningitis, so just a touch of the meningitis. So it was less than ideal. I did get to spend some quality time down here in the studio because it's dark and quiet, and I slept down here for four or five days while I was recuperating. But, you know, back up to my normal 60% that I operate at, so I feel half good.

0:06:14 Thomas: Oh, Just a little bit of meningitis?

0:06:39 Thomas: That's pretty, that's how, how long did it take, like, total, that you were just feeling deathly

0:06:40 Tom: Uh, You know, I was, I was on my back for a week and then, uh, really it took me, like, well, then it took me like another week to get back to work because I had a lot of vertigo, so I couldn't get in the car and go anywhere. So, uh, it was really, I was out of work for two weeks. Um, I was halfway normal after the first week, so, like just

0:06:47 Thomas: Jeez. That's a long time. How does one get that, besides some, you know, illicit kind of prostitute activity.

0:07:07 Tom: Random chance man, like it, yeah, just random fucking chance. It It just, it could have been like any old shitty virus, like a fucking enterovirus or rhinovirus, any, any fucking shitty normal, you know, "Hey, you got a fucking, you've got the sniffles." Nope. You got meningitis. So it just could, it can just happen. It could just work its way into your spinal fluid and then you're just shit out of luck. So I just got shit out of luck so, but you know it's fine. I got to play with painkillers and you know I

0:07:08 Thomas: Oh, okay. Wow. I didn't know that. Ooh, wow.

0:07:35 Thomas: You're still doing that? Still experimenting with that?

0:07:37 Tom: Pretty much have no, I mean I've, I don't have a lot of memories from it Cause I I would just wake up and be like that sucks, take painkillers, fall back asleep, and call it a day. I mean

0:07:40 Thomas: Yeah. That is a long time though. Two weeks. Wow, that, that really sets you back. What's the, sorry, we're getting on a, on the tangent, but what's the yeah, yeah, I've got your chart here.

0:07:46 Tom: No, I don't care, I'll fucking call it give you my whole medical history if you want yeah. My resting heart rate is yeah, blood pressure, hang on a minute, I got my lab work from my last exam. I can pull that out, I don'

0:08:00 Thomas: Do you consider yourself healthy? I'm looking at your chart here. I don't know if I think you have the healthiest of... No, I'm just kidding. What's the vertigo part? How does it give you vertigo? Because I've had problems with that for other reasons.

0:08:13 Tom: T know how it gives you vertigo but it did, I mean I just, I would, I was dizzy as shit, so um, you know, so it's mostly, it's you get the the fucking meninges or whatever around your, your being get all swollen and flamed, and it hurts, so, you know, that's the headache component of the transaction, the headache and the nausea, and then the light sensitivity.

0:08:15 Thomas: Weird. Yeah. Yeah, well, this is great because

0:08:30 Tom: Great.

0:08:30 Thomas: I was looking for just such a tangent to get started on. I really was. I, I don't think I ever talked about this, but a while back, I'd say two years ago, I started having this weird dizziness and it was kind of, it would happen totally randomly. And so for the longest time, I just, you know, I tend to think nothing's a big deal because I grew up with a dad who would insist nothing was a big detail.

So I just kind of go, ah, no big deal. And most things aren't a bigdeal. So it's actually not a bad attitude to have. Most injuries are like, eh, whatever. But I started, the one time I specifically was like like bending to pick something up and just all of a sudden the room just turns, you know, like really, really different than anything I've been used to. And I was like, you now, I think I need to see somebody about this because this is bizarre.

And so, it turned out, I mean, it was something, yeah, I went and saw a fortune teller and they said that, yeah, my grandmother had been trying trying to contact me. No, I had some other symptom too. What was it? I don't know. I had some other symptoms that when I looked up the two of them, did you, I want to know, Tom, did you have a WebMD moment of when you started getting sick or did you

0:09:19 Tom: Did you go see the Cheshire cat or what, I mean, was this, no?

0:09:43 Thomas: Just, oh, okay.

0:09:43 Tom: Because it came on so quick, so I thought I had a migraine, and then I was like, that's not a migrain, I need to go to the hospital now, and get a spinal tap, so yeah.

0:09:49 Thomas: Oh, wow. Wow. That's quick.

0:09:52 Tom: No, there wasn't, like, uh, yeah, I, I had, I had migraine on Monday and then by By Tuesday night, I was in the hospital, so.

0:09:57 Thomas: Oh man. Cause I did the, it's funny. Anything you search in WebMD is just, you're going to die. And it's like, the problem is that, yeah, cancer

0:10:04 Tom: Yeah, everything is AIDS cancer. Everything is AIDS Cancer. Everything. It's like, oh, I got a runny nose. That's probably like, it's like exploding liver disease and AIDS cancer, they cancel each other out. Yeah, yeah, they balance out, yeah.

0:10:10 Thomas: Of the AIDS. AIDS cancer. But isn't AIDS cancer good? Because like the AIDS will, you know, when they battle it out. Yeah. Yeah, we probably all have. It's like yin and yang. If it gets out of balance, then you have either AIDS or cancer. If you have a cancer, but if it's in balance, they're perfectly compensating. This is all sound medical science. So anyway, anything you search in WebMD, like you said, it ranges from you're already dead, like somehow your brain is processing this even though you died. And then we'll contact a morgue immediately to just put your body straight into a kiln. Or it's like, yeah, nothing. And it really is difficult to do. So I searched the combination of symptoms and of course, dizziness. And I really can't remember what the other thing was, but it actually was kind of significant.

0:11:01 Tom: Prolapsed anus or something? That was, it just, I don't, you

0:11:03 Thomas: That's, that's just in my favorites bar. I just click the, I just click the WebMD search. And then I know, I'm like, why am I searching this again? I know all the symptoms and I know the treatment.

0:11:11 Tom: Know, Who are you kidding? You just like to google prolapsed anus so everybody

0:11:16 Cecil: I just like the pictures. That's all. I only do image searches on that.

0:11:17 Thomas: Oh God, no. So I, I, we're really going to make use of the explicit tag in this particular episode. I will let people know, so when cognitive dissonance comes on the show, I'm going to, I don't normally have the explicit tag on for a reason, like you guys say in your show, but today I do. So, oh,

0:11:37 Cecil: Why are you still talking to the audience like they're still there? Why are you doing that?

0:11:41 Tom: Has

0:11:41 Thomas: You know what? You're right.

0:11:42 Tom: Already Spiked the rock.

0:11:44 Thomas: Let's just talk, you and I. So I promise I'm getting to a somewhat interesting observation, maybe, not for you guys, but we'll pretend there's an audience out there who cares what I'm saying. So when I Googled it, it said like, you probably should see a doctor immediately because you're dying. And so I was like, oh, I know this is bullshit, but I, I'm, this dizziness is really weird. So I am going to do that. So I called a, um, ear, nose and throat guy or something. Somebody I'd already seen for an ear problem I was having. And he's like, you need to get in the office really quick. And it turned out that all that you maybe already know this, but all that has to happen is if you have some bullshit in your ear, like if you Have just randomly some sort of a particle or anything in the

0:11:45 Tom: Sure.

0:12:24 Tom: Bugs. Anything, It could get in there, right? Yeah.

0:12:24 Thomas: Right, yeah, syringes, just shit that's just stuck in there, beetles.

0:12:29 Tom: It's like a fucking Long Island beach in there. Look at that, all this shit that's washed up.

0:12:34 Thomas: Yeah, it's just litter and just, yeah. And if you have just anything in there it doesn't even matter what it is, some bullshit particle in a certain fluid of your ear just completely throws off your brain. Like you just, and so what was happening for me is when I would lean my head a certain way. He has, the guy had some weird chair that he could get to put go in any position. And he, he instantly like found, I kind of vaguely described it. And then he found the position and the room just went, and I was like, ah, that's it. Okay. That's it, that it, and if you have a certain, you know, particle in a part of your ear, it can just totally throw you off. And the reason I bring this up is I don't remember if I told the story, what it made me think of is it's so interesting to think about how fragile all our perceptions are.

0:12:34 Tom: Well,

0:13:22 Thomas: And that like, I just remember thinking, I want to talk to my, you know, super Catholic family about this at some point, even though I never did. It's funny how just even despite how God has perfectly designed us and all that and how the mind is separate from the brain, you know, like that bullshit, like the mind and the soul is separate from the brand. Yet, if I get a teeny particle in a part of my ear for no reason, like I can't even function. Like, if I turn a certain way, it's like, and good luck, even though my mind might be separate from my brain, good luck mind with that little thing. Like if you start getting dizzy for uncontrollably, like have fun mind. Good thing you're separate from the brain. But anyway, that was my tangent. What do you guys think?

0:14:04 Cecil: I think go ahead, Tom.

0:14:05 Tom: I think it's gone. Nope. Oh.

0:14:06 Cecil: Okay. So I think here's, here's what I think that there's a lot of stuff like that. There was a great, um, I want to say it was a, this american life or could have been a radio lab I don't know they they sort of blend into each other sometimes so I don't know which is which they were talking about they were talking don't get me started on cereal because you totally misrepresented our position on cereal on your show you totally misrepresented our position by the way yeah uh we're gonna have to grab to come back to that because you're like oh they think they think he's innocent I never said he was innocent I never said the dude was innocent I just said I DON'T think you should

0:14:11 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. It was cereal.

0:14:30 Thomas: What? Oh, tangent number two. Okay. Hold on. Say what you're going to say. I don't remember remember saying that

0:14:35 Tom: Snap

0:14:42 Cecil: Fucking yes you did yes you did Brett yes you did this

0:14:42 Thomas: You said that. Is this another reference from the 80s that I won't know?

0:14:47 Tom: Let's fight. Well,

0:14:49 Cecil: Is a Pulp Fiction reference so yeah maybe you would know it I don't know

0:14:51 Thomas: Oh, okay. No, I have seen Pulp Fiction, but I'm not religious about it like some people. All right, let's keep our tangents in a row.

0:14:55 Cecil: Okay in any case so so this American life they're talking about gas being let off into a house right so there's like like back when you had gas lights a leak of gas could cause carbon monoxide poisoning but they didn't know carbon monoxide poisoning was a thing back then they just they didn't know. No. So they would experience weird, trippy shit. Like they would see a little girl walk across the room or something, or they would, they thought they had ghosts in the house because of things that seemed to them to be very real. And then they, they, they kill the gas leak and the people realize, oh, none of that shit was real.

0:14:59 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

0:15:34 Cecil: So you can have spiritual experiences on, on, you know, clearly on carbon monoxide, side you can have it on poisonous mushrooms you could have it on uh other types of uh other types of psychedelics that we can create uh you can have these experiences but that doesn't make them anything other than shit that resides in your brain.

0:15:55 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's just, oh, go ahead.

0:15:57 Tom: I mean I was just gonna say, you know, kind along the same lines, like, we have this, like, we all do the same thing, and I, and I don't know what the alternative, well, I do know what the alternative is, but we, we base our sense of what's real on our senses, right, because that's how we, I mean, what are, what are their choices, but we have, we have knowledge, we have, we have knowledge that our senses are notoriously unreliable, like, we see shit that's not there, we've got a blind spot in our vision, we're totally unaware that we even have

0:16:23 Thomas: Sometimes I see listeners to my show. Can you imagine? Imagine. And we all know those aren't there. So, yeah,

0:16:26 Cecil: Yeah.

0:16:27 Tom: That's amazing that's Um it's amazing. But you know like we we have all kinds of experiences that um are just based on you know goof ups in the system like it's we're we're meat we're made of meat you know I mean it's like it's fucking electrical impulses firing we can have you know you can be fucking dehydrated or too hungry or like fucking electrolytes unbalanced or like so many things go wrong with the meat and instead of having a method to evaluate if the things that we experience when they seem like out of the norm instead of being like that seems fucking weird and out of norm I should probably check and see if everything's working properly before I decide if that's real instead most people are just like everything my senses feeds me is real and I think everything

0:16:41 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm.

0:17:10 Thomas: Yeah. And how dare you for questioning their experience?

0:17:11 Tom: Right. And it's like you you need to understand that there's a difference between the reality of your experience which I don't take away from anyone someone says like I saw a ghost I think a ghost but it wasn't a ghost I think you just saw some shit you know what. I mean like I believe that you saw some but let's stop and think and like use a method that's reliable you know to we should question our our own our own uh our own senses our own perceptions and our memories of those things.

0:17:27 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And I think to add to your point, I do think a lot of people, not even just religious people, but a lot lot of people do think, you know, brains are kind of magical and our consciousness is magical and Deepak Chopra and all that. But it struck me, I think what struck me about this particular insignificant experience I had was how mechanical it was. It was literally like, yeah, there's a, there's something in your fluid that's like a level, you Know, like when you're trying to level something out, uh, that when construction and it's causing your brain to totally flip out and it's like, wow, that's so, I'm like a little machine, you know, that's, that's how your brain kind of of levels itself out. It's got all these little fluids that it knows kind of the elevation and the, you know, the kind of level of stuff and the slope of stuff. It is really interesting how mechanical it is. But anyway, now we need to talk about cereal because I am very, I am truly mortified that I may have wronged you. I don't know what you are saying,

0:18:01 Cecil: Yeah. Well,

0:18:35 Thomas: But

0:18:35 Cecil: My here's the thing like I listened to the show I think it was with you and Noah and you guys were saying uh you guys are both saying I can't believe those cognitive dissonance guys yeah of course that guy is guilty because you were were talking about um the Adnan who got convicted or whatever and you guys were saying of course he's guilty and I don't think that that was our position my position has always been I don't think he's innocent either I have no idea I just don't think the evidence plays out a guilty guilty verdict that's all that's been my position the whole time you're

0:19:04 Thomas: Yeah. Huh. Odd. I don't remember describing you as that, but I will look it up. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm gonna find that and I'm going to post it.

0:19:11 Cecil: Gonna play it and then yeah. Maybe maybe here's the thing maybe my

0:19:13 Tom: Really

0:19:12 Thomas: No, I'll do it after these episodes. No I'll do it after these episodes and I'll issue a retraction. I didn't I don't remember.

0:19:19 Cecil: It may be it may be that I'm misremembering it or I wasn't I was sensitive to it or something but as I recall you guys were both saying those guys are crazy and. I I the thing is I don't I don't I don't think that you know like the thing isn't like I just need a lot more information in order to put somebody uh away for a long time without a reasonable doubt and I.

0:19:28 Thomas: Well, I don't think you're crazy, but you

0:19:40 Cecil: Had a lot of reasonable doubts you

0:19:40 Thomas: Know, the weird thing is that's how I remember thinking about it. I remember thinking, yeah, this guy for me personally, like if I had to make just a decision of feelings like if I knew this guy, I'd be like, yeah, this guy did it. Like I'm very convinced that he did it. But I do remember saying that I didn't think the, the trial that happened, you know, I didn'T think the charges.

0:19:54 Tom: My

0:20:00 Cecil: Know when we talked I remember you saying that I remember saying I don't think that there's enough evidence but I think he did it. Your gut feeling was you thought he did I.

0:20:04 Thomas: So did I, so are you saying then when I reported that to Noah, I did so inaccurately?

0:20:09 Cecil: Think what what happened is is that you and Noah got in a little circle jerk together that's what I think happened.

0:20:10 Thomas: Okay. No, I'm, I'M honestly, that's a circle jigger about how how dumb those cognitive dissonance fucks are.

0:20:16 Cecil: Yeah. That's a really easy circle jerk to get into there are many people you will be welcomed by many many people. So.

0:20:19 Thomas: Oh, man. Not at all. So, okay, I'm going to look that up because I feel bad. I would guess, if I were to hazard a guess, I would probably spoke hastily and did misrepresent, but I do remember your position pretty well on that. So I may have just said something wrong.

0:20:25 Cecil: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Maybe maybe I'm mistaken but I recall listening. To it and being like what.

0:20:42 Thomas: Well, this will be a good test on the fallibility of memory. Memory.

0:20:45 Cecil: Exactly. I think this is a perfect example. Of that exact thing. And there's a chance that one of there's no here's the thing one of us is misremembering right okay.

0:20:48 Thomas: And it just goes to show. Yeah, I just mainly don't remember. So I'm saying I'm not, I won't be surprised if I did, if I said it inaccurately, but I don't Remember doing that.

0:20:58 Tom: Position

0:21:06 Thomas: So we'll see.

0:21:06 Cecil: So in any case my position is not enough evidence that's all I'm saying what.

0:21:10 Thomas: Not enough evidence, but you

0:21:11 Tom: Is straight not guilty I can't I I

0:21:13 Cecil: Well

0:21:11 Thomas: Really, well then am I wrong? So then maybe if I go back and I said, I can't believe those guys think he's not guilty.

0:21:15 Tom: No that wasn't my position back then. That wasn't my position at that time yeah.

0:21:20 Thomas: Oh, okay. What, what changed? This is totally random but I kind of want to hear well

0:21:24 Tom: This is are we going to talk about Serial I mean are we because I'm willing to do that I'm just curious but well

0:21:28 Thomas: I'm I'm upset that we didn't issue a spoiler alert so spoiler alert on Cereal I'm anti-cereal okay or sorry I'm multi-spoiler I'm very pro-cereal but uh there now the spoiler alert has been issued I'm curious you've changed your position was there a Cereal sequel that I missed

0:21:43 Tom: I I I don't like I I don't lean like so you said said that like if you were to just say like hey my personal feeling is that he's guilty right you don't there's not enough evidence for you to say guilty in a court of law right but but your personal feeling is that she's guilty like I think there's not enough evidence in a court of law my personal feeling is he's not guilty I think he's I can't I cannot I can't listen to that story and think like yeah that's a guy who I think committed the crime I don't think there's... there's nothing evidential at all to me that points to him committing the crime I mean it's all about god if I have nothing evidentia why would I lean in that direction like just because he's been well

0:21:45 Thomas: Hmm this is this is we should talk about okay we're going gonna talk Cereal well I think that it's not

0:22:26 Cecil: There's I think I think there's a few things um one of the things in particular is uh there's uh there is that like his phone winds up doing all kinds of crazy shit and I know that they brought in a guy that said yeah some of that stuff is okay some of it's not but there's and also I think too like how does that Jay guy know all this stuff you know what I mean like possibly but at the same time it's like nobody's accusing Jay and there's no evidence leading to that well

0:22:27 Thomas: Nothing it's not nothing yeah yeah

0:22:49 Tom: Jay could have killed her yeah

0:22:37 Thomas: Exactly exactly well I think oh go ahead how

0:22:56 Tom: But but there's but but like to me it's that doesn't in any way implicate this other kid if anything it implicates Jay so if Cecil knows all about a murder and Cecil says yeah but it was Tom that did it and I mean how the fuck wait what to me there's no evidence there all we have is this guy said a thing right

0:23:04 Thomas: Does it not in any way okay so here's the thing here really well but if that guy's

0:23:25 Tom: Right

0:23:25 Cecil: There's also there's also people there's... there's a lot of he said she said because a lot throughout the whole trial they're talking about like oh he acted weird on the phone and I'm thinking who cares if he acted on the phone like why is that even admissible it's like oh he acted weird well that's a fucking subjective thing to decide whether or not somebody's weird yes

0:23:25 Thomas: Yeah yeah

0:23:35 Tom: Yeah again to me like right yeah that's not evidence to me and then there's the alibi that that woman that they found that remembered him that fucking had that affidavit that they ignored in court that I mean it's exculpatory that's a big deal the

0:23:44 Thomas: I agree with that well but I think yeah but then the the timing was really sketchy though like they didn't

0:24:01 Tom: Timing of the whole murder was sketchy though when they reenacted it they had like a minute but

0:24:03 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, I agree. But I guess when you take your overall picture and then you look at these individual pieces of evidence, if you're somebody who overall thinks he didn't do it, then you see that affidavit that wasn't filed. You say, oh, that frees him. I say, well, that could be explained by the fact that the whole timeline on the murder itself was very rough. So he could have had an alibi for, you know, like a time when he wasn't actually doing the murder. So I understand that.

0:24:30 Tom: But I guess I guess my curiosity is like the only thing you have there's no physical evidence at all there's... there's is no physical evidence that ties Adnan to the murder all you have is circumstantial evidence that seems super super weak.

0:24:46 Thomas: Well, That's why I've said that I don't. That's exactly why I hold my position, because if, if, if we're in a court of law, I don't think there's enough to convict him. Unfortunately, you know, I don't think there's enough to convict anyone, really, but in the court of, let's say, my feelings, like if I, let's see if I were needed to deal with this guy well here's why we, the, the information that, um, Jay had, basically, and again, it's been months since I've listened to this, but from memory, it's basically that yeah well, he knew where the car was, he knew a number of things that essentially meant, can we at least agree it meant that either he or Jay did the, either Adnan or Jay Did It?

0:24:47 Tom: Yeah.

0:25:04 Tom: I'm just curious why you're feeling sway that way like but I demand you remember everything but

0:25:26 Cecil: Sure he's

0:25:27 Thomas: Okay, well, that was my impression. It meant that either Adnon or Jay Dit It. And personally, I found Jay to be reacting exactly how someone who didn't do it would react, and Adnan to be interacting exactly how someone who did do it, would react. Based on my per, again, personal feelings.

0:25:41 Tom: What's that I'm curious what that's

0:25:42 Thomas: Here I

0:25:43 Tom: Based on, because, like unless you have knowledge of people who didn't, like, knowledge of, like, this is what I I have a baseline for what people commit murder act like, like, where would that you

0:25:48 Thomas: Have knowledge of knowing no it's not that it's, it's the baseline, it's the baseline of for what people who know they did something wrong do, because what Jay did was, when they tried to talk to him, uh, I can't remember if this was recorded or if it was what she said, um, Jay said, man, I can't believe that guy still won't admit it, he did it, you know, Adnan has the, well, I don't, I don't know, no, I'm not, I don't know what Jay did. Like, I look, I don't, I know, but because if Adnan didn't do it, then he knows Jay did it a hundred percent. If we've agreed that one of them did it and the information they had means one of them didn't, in Adnan's mind, he knows Jay didn't. Now they made the excuse of, like, well, he can't comment because of the case and all that. And it's like, I, I dunno. I mean, he knows he would have to know Jay did if he didn't, if he so to and and he but

0:26:43 Tom: Know like but Jay is like the perfect example of the most unreliable possible source. Like, his story changed constantly when he was being interrogated. His story changed on the, on the stand a number of times. Like at that point, it's, it's like, I'm throwing half the baby out with the bathwater with this guy. I mean, this is like, that's a guy that I trust. No way. That's a boy whose story demonstrably changed.

0:26:51 Thomas: He placed the car where it was oh I don't trust him so then let me ask you this, if you were, say, the feeling was reversed, or the, uh, the, the situation was reversed, would you say, uh, and, and Jay was actually the person we were talking about, would you say, okay, not enough evidence to convict him, but I do believe he did it, right?

0:27:22 Tom: I don't know, cause I didn't hear a whole case against Jay, you know? Like, I don't, I don't know, based on, based on Serial, would I say that he did it? I would say he's involved, he's involved

0:27:31 Cecil: Clearly involved, because he knew he knew things that that nobody should know without without, uh, without actually being part of it, like, where her car was where the body like didn't he mention the body too didn't he like did he say where they buried the body did he was he the one who tipped the cops off Yeah he I, I vaguely were I the

0:27:32 Tom: Right right mm-hmm I

0:27:46 Thomas: I think he led them to it right, I can't remember. Oh,

0:27:50 Tom: Thought I thought the body was found by that drunk, yeah

0:27:51 Thomas: A guy in a park.

0:27:52 Cecil: Guy in the park found the body so he didn't say but he did he led them to the car, so, like, there's some things that he just, he had to know somehow

0:27:53 Tom: The body was fond by the drunk, yeah yeah

0:27:53 Thomas: Yeah, that guy found it in the park. But he led them to the car. So here's what

0:28:01 Tom: I agree that he had some involvement, I don't know what his level of involvement is, though see

0:28:03 Thomas: I'm pointing to for my personal feelings, though. There's a show that I watch from time to time called Catch a Contractor. Have you seen that show?

0:28:13 Cecil: I've seen that show, Adam Carolla's giant chicklet teeth now

0:28:14 Thomas: Okay. Inevitably, inevitably, they have the footage. They know the guy's lying. They knows that his construction is is terrible. And the guy, without fail, the guy is saying, no, I paid, they didn't pay me. Or there will be some discrepancy, like the client, oh, sorry, I should explain. It's a show where they bust bad contractors who have ripped people off. And what will happen is they'll talk to the family first. The family will say, we gave this guy, we give him $50,000. We gave him 100% of the money. He hasn't done the project. It is not done at all, blah, blah. They will list out all all these things. Inevitably, they'll talk to the guy first without the family. And they'll, they'll say, they didn't give me any money. Like, where are the checks? Or he'll have some excuse. Like, well, they gave me the money and then they fired me. They said they didn'T want me to finish. And then what will happen is whenever they confront, they ask the guy, that whenever they say, hey, so is the family lying?

0:29:06 Thomas: Because here's what they said. They gave the money. Are they lying? Inevidably, it's the same reaction. Well, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not going to say they're lying, you know, but I, you know, they, they didn't, you know, this is what I know. I, I'm not going to say one way or the other. It's the exact same reaction of when you know you did something wrong. And that's why personally, again, this would not hold up in court. I'm not saying this should ever hold up. I'm saying we should convict anyone on this, but for my personal feelings, it was such a similar reaction to me. It was like the exact same reaction. Whereas Jay said, now, man, he did it. Why won't he admit that he did it? And Adnan is, Oh, I don't, Hey, I don't know if Jay did it like, but it's, he would know.

0:29:34 Cecil: Hold on though, yeah but hold on, hold on, though, I watched that show too, okay, and I've been watching that show for a long time, and I, one of the times, now it's only one, but every other time you're right, that's exactly what happens. But there was one time where the contractor was not lying. He came in, he said, no, they wanted this shit over here.

0:29:47 Thomas: Oh, oh wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you remember though? He said the family, he said the family was lying. He for sure said, yes, they're lying about this. He didn't say, no, no.

0:30:08 Cecil: Yeah, but everybody says that. Everybody says the family's lying.

0:30:17 Thomas: What I just said was when, when asked whether the family's lying, the contractor usually says, I, Hey, I don't know. I'm not going to call them liars, but this is what I, all

0:30:24 Cecil: They don't do that. Sometimes they say they're lying. I've been on there like, no, they're dying. No, I did this. They fired me. No way.

0:30:27 Thomas: Right, now, okay. When I'm reviewing, you're right.

0:30:31 Cecil: I never took that. No, they always protest what they're saying, I...

0:30:35 Thomas: Ah, sometimes, I'll, okay, when I'm tracking down the serial check footage, I'm going to track down every example. No, I don't have that kind of time. But no, you're right.

0:30:43 Cecil: Get, I... get what you mean, though, I understand where you're

0:30:45 Thomas: Sometimes they do stick to it.

0:30:45 Cecil: Coming from I know I know what you means when you're saying this because I recognize what you're saying. Why doesn't he just come out and say, well, fucking, I know he did it, or he clearly, he's involved, he knows all this stuff, why don't, why am I in here when this guy clearly knows everything and all he did was tell the cops some stuff and I, put me away. I understand what you're saying and it doesn't seem like, uh, like a response that I would have, and it, to me, that's not enough for me to say, well, there's something that he's either A, involved, or B, guilty.

0:30:47 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:31:18 Tom: And I guess, like, I can understand being in, in jail for 15 years with your entire life stretching out in front of you in jail,

0:31:29 Cecil: See, I can't understand that. My brain is like, I can't.

0:31:30 Tom: I can understand saying, Man, I need for my own sanity, after 15 years incarcerated and knowing that I'm going to live the entirety of my adult life incarcerated there, I can't afford that level of indignation and anger. That shit is going to eat you up. Maybe the first 10 years you feel that. But at some point, you almost have to take a philosophical backseat that, man, look, all I'm telling you is that I'm not guilty. At this point, I'm not involved in the fucking rest of the story. I'm not fucking guilty. That's the only thing I can tell you for sure. Here's some information that I know, because there almost has to be a line for your own sanity, a line drawn in the sand where you say, look, man, what I know and what I don't know, what people made assumptions about got me here.

0:32:19 Tom: I don't want to make some fucking assumptions. So the only way for me to fucking have a any shot at looking at the rest of my life and making sense of the rest of my life, assuming he's not like a working on the assumptions, not guilty. If the only way for me to look at the rest of my life and not go fucking stark raving mad is to look at the world in a black and white. I know what I know. And that's it. Shit that I don't know, I'm not making assumptions about. Assumptions landed me in this place. And I can understand taking a philosophical approach to that in order to maintain your own sanity after 15 fucking years and the entirety of your life stretching out in front of you, I think it's but

0:32:58 Thomas: Well, yeah, this is why I agree that I wouldn't convict anyone for it. But I think that you can come up with, well, okay, yeah, I mean, I agree with that as a potential explanation of the facts. I'm just saying if somehow in some weird thought experiment, it really mattered, like a gun to my head type of situation, like for some reason, if I had to make a decision, you have to decide who you think is guilty, I would very, pretty confidently say Adnan. On. But I, well, because of,

0:33:03 Tom: That's why that reaction to me doesn't doesn't play as false. Yeah. Yeah.

0:33:24 Tom: I'm I'm amazed by that.

0:33:31 Cecil: So if you had a teenage girl, Adnan and Jay,

0:33:35 Thomas: Okay,

0:33:35 Cecil: And you had to get them all three across a river, and you couldn't leave one.

0:33:40 Thomas: I've got a sack of grain, Adnan and a girl. So I would send Adnan in the sack of grain across cause he's, he's trustworthy in it with the grain. And then I would, but here's the thing I would boat back with just the grain and yet leave Adnan.

0:33:49 Cecil: He's okay with the grain. Just in case. No, I get it. I understand. Yeah, yeah. And then you'd come Back to a dead hooker, and

0:33:56 Tom: Yeah.

0:33:56 Thomas: Yeah. Okay. And Then I leave the grain on the other side. Yeah, and I was wrong. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, that's all I'm saying. And this

0:34:03 Cecil: Um, You're Not gonna Be Able to use any of this, like this is all just useful useless shit, you're gonna throw all this away. Yeah.

0:34:08 Thomas: Is, this is awesome. It's actually my favorite kind of thing to talk about because it really does play into like how people make judgments about stuff. And I want to emphasize that I would not make, yeah, yeah. We'll, we'll be, how

0:34:26 Cecil: Oh,

0:34:19 Tom: Clearly, You make snap judgments and, uh, based on fucking based On contractor shows, Like, I Hope You're never on a fucking jury ever, ever. What

0:34:30 Thomas: Many times do I have to say that's not what I would say as a jury? It has nothing to do with the legality.

0:34:31 Tom: Did Tom I'm Just fucking with You. I'm Just Saying That You're

0:34:36 Thomas: It, Has To do With Interpersonally,

0:34:36 Cecil: That's Awesome. It's Like it's How he Spends his life, he lives his whole life as, as if, how, catch a contractor Would do something.

0:34:41 Thomas: Yeah,

0:34:37 Tom: Right, It's Just the whole thing, it's like, well, I, I don't know, your honor, I I was watching Trading Spaces the other day, and I, you know, I don't think that a murderer would put a plush rug right in the center of the room. You got to, fucking, he's guilty.

0:34:42 Thomas: Yeah, Are You Familiar With Episode 14 Where Oh,

0:34:42 Cecil: Oh,

0:34:57 Thomas: Man. Oh, yeah, well, it is a

0:35:01 Tom: I don'T know if he raped her, but he raped the fucking decorations in that room. I'll tell you what, sent him to jail for his poor taste.

0:35:01 Thomas: Really good Example Of Yeah. You're right, this is unusable. No, I'm Just kidding. No, Well, I Can't Think I Cannot Think Of a better example of experiences that you get to see on tape.

0:35:11 Cecil: It's Completely Unusable. Oh, Fucking Abandon Ship, abandon Ship. Yep. Yeah.

0:35:21 Thomas: Well, maybe It's because I don't watch any other shows, I hate, like, all TV shows that aren't scripted, this is like the one unscripted

0:35:15 Tom: If there's, I

0:35:22 Cecil: Well, This Is also a little bit of a scripted Too, I mean, this Is, there's A lot of things that are happening in this that are, are happening behind the scenes. They're just showing you the juiciest nuggets of what these people are doing.

0:35:28 Thomas: Yeah, It Probably is No, I agree, I Agree, But This Is one of the best sources of, like, seeing what people actually react like when confronted with the, you know, falsehood of their lie, all that, like, that's genuine, and you can tell it's genuine because the people are terrible at it, like, they're, they're Absolutely awful.

0:35:49 Cecil: You're right. And I think that there is a level on that show where you do get a chance to see natural reaction.

0:35:55 Thomas: Probably.

0:35:56 Cecil: You do get at least a little bit of natural reaction, I think, after the initial, where they meet up, though, that very initial moment when the cameras are in their face. I think the rest of all that is all just, it's all just producers convincing them to do something on On screen because they're going to get away with something. You know what I mean? Like, you

0:36:10 Thomas: Yeah, And And this will all play into the verdict when we're, you know, going back to Adnan, we'll submit this as evidence, like, your honor, I think sometimes these reactions on Catch a Contractor are not real, so I want you to take that All right, well,

0:36:25 Tom: Call to the Stand. Adam Carolla, up fucking Do

0:36:30 Thomas: Yeah,

0:36:31 Cecil: Know, I gotta say, I gotta say really quickly, and this is totally not something you're putting in the show, but that show, the thing that drives me crazy about that show is they don't show enough construction for me. Like I'm a, I love watching the people make shit, but I hate the like private eye stuff they do on that show. I'm just like, I don't care how they found the guy. Who cares how they called them up? Like who cares how the guy Oh, they got him. I just want to see him come in and look like a douchebag and have to fix his work. That's what I want to watch. I don't want to walk around like like a bounty hunter and try to find the guy like I don't care about that I

0:36:40 Thomas: I Know, That's My favorite Part. Yeah. They They really, I totally agree.

0:37:01 Thomas: Yeah. And it was worse when it was a half hour. Now that's an hour. They, they are able to show more stuff. But when it Was a half hour, it was like, okay. And this shows them like hammering one board and then the house is just fixed.

0:37:10 Cecil: Know there's literally nothing they showed nothing about that anyway

0:37:12 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree.

0:37:15 Tom: The contractors. Not do the work, or do they just do bad work, right?

0:37:15 Thomas: Okay.

0:37:15 Cecil: Yeah it's all bad it's all it's all awful contractors so they'll come in and they'll be like they take like 90% of the money and they'll they'll prefer like wind up performing like 10% of the work and they'll just leave and then so they're stuck with like an empty house That they paid yeah

0:37:19 Thomas: It's both. Yeah.

0:37:28 Thomas: Yeah. But then also sometimes they just do it totally terribly and it's like unsafe and the P and the people are complaining.

0:37:33 Cecil: Yeah there's There'S Other Times too where they wind up paying way too little for stuff so somebody will come in and and bid a job out for yeah they'll say well I paid him seven thousand dollars and you're like yeah but he wanted a whole new kitchen and living room and they're like oh but he said he could do it for seven thousand hours, the guy was clearly just, he's just there to take him for a ride he's not there he's never going to produce so oh

0:37:38 Thomas: Right. Yeah. They'll bid like $2,000 for an entire kitchen.

0:37:53 Tom: Yeah.

0:37:52 Thomas: Yeah. And Sometimes They murder their their high school girlfriend, ex-girlfriend, and it's like, oh, we gotta confront them All.

0:38:00 Tom: Do They Do they, doing it weeks and weeks after A breakup that seemed perfectly amicable. I'm just, what, you know, I'm wondering, like, do they deal with no motive, no demonstrable Possible Motive. I'm, this fucking time is curious. Fucking totally guilty.

0:38:01 Thomas: Right. Yeah. These are all, oh, Man. Uh, I

0:38:16 Tom: All Right, let's Go on. Yeah.

0:38:12 Cecil: Yeah oh

0:38:16 Thomas: I Will Not, I will Not Be That's It. I'm Going to re-listen to all of Serial and present A cumulative case. Why? No, I'm just kidding, I'm not gonna do That. Yeah.

0:38:22 Cecil: Oh

0:38:17 Tom: No, Yeah. Yeah, you nailed That. Yeah. Fucking Somebody's Got to, because the prosecution Couldn't. Boom.

0:38:26 Thomas: Oh, Man, but Then, okay, so so in, I Was gonna, gonna move on, but now I have to ask you, Tom. Gun To your head, you've got a river, you got a boat, you've got a sack of grain, who, if gun to your head, for some reason we could come up with, some I'm Not gonna try to Think of it, but some Reason you Had to decide who did it, Jay and and uh and Adnan You

0:38:32 Cecil: Damn it's okay

0:38:34 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I Have to Pick somebody that did it. I have to pick Jay Because there's There's evidence that he, he had, he had demonstrable evidence that you knew something about the crime, right? I Don't think there's any evidence that Adnan knew anything about the a crime. It

0:38:50 Thomas: Had To Okay. Hmm. Well, The Evidence that Jay knew something about the crime comes from Jay And Adnan didn't Give Any evidence of that because he's guilty, so there you go. What?

0:39:05 Tom: Comes From Jay, right. What Yeah, okay, so so if Jay said, I did it, I'm guilty, like that's Crazy, you gotta go, it's crazy, it

0:39:15 Thomas: What? That's not, that's a misrepresentation of what I was saying, but that's okay. Don't worry about it.

0:39:21 Tom: Is A perfect Representation I Feel Like I

0:39:23 Thomas: So now, hey, hey Cecil, now we're even with the misrepsentations because of that one right there. No, it's okay, yeah, right.

0:39:23 Tom: Fucking Drew That with A still Life You're

0:39:25 Cecil: Fair enough you're literally going to have to throw all of that away like none of that is useful

0:39:32 Thomas: I'm keeping it. It's my best episode ever. Best episode

0:39:33 Cecil: Oh god no one is going to listen to it

0:39:37 Thomas: Ever.

0:39:36 Tom: Gonna get You're Going to have More mail about fucking cereal than you are about any of your topics.

0:39:37 Cecil: Oh

0:39:53 Thomas: All So there you have it. There was a part one of, I don't know, three, but we're going to condense into two with cognitive dissonance. Now I have a treat because, true to my word, I went back and checked that episode where we talked about cereal. I know you can't get enough of cereal, this is so topical, but I went back and check and I'm gonna play it for you and I'll be honest, I have no idea what Cecil was talking about. I mean, I think I understand the impression he got but I'll play it and then I'll I'll explain it. So here you go.

0:41:08 Thomas: And that was it. That was, there was no, I never mentioned anything Tom and Cecil said. I think maybe, and first off, maybe I, okay, so this was episode 115, feel free to check it out. I listened to the rest of it, and we just talked about more about Serial, but Tom and Cecil were not mentioned that I remember. And maybe there's a different episode I talked about? I don't think so, though. I'm, I think Cecil probably heard Noah say, say, thanks for getting it right. And then assumed, I guess, that I was endorsing something he was saying because Noah said, oh, everybody I've talked to said such and such, you know. And so anyway, I think it was funny because I fully admit that I could have been wrong. Like I very much could have said something that I didn't remember, but I really did not remember throwing Tom and Cecil under the bus like that.

0:42:00 Thomas: And I don't think I did. I think the record shows I I didn't. So I guess my memory is a little bit reliable, but maybe not. We'll see if anyone remembers anything differently or a different episode. I don't know. I'm going to tell Tom and Cecil to listen to this and see what they think. All right. Well, with that said, look forward to a double episode on Thursday. Again, you're essentially getting three for the price of two here, um, but just in case anyone was unhappy with how funny and just kind of tangential this episode was, you get that kind of bonus long episode on Thursday, so I, for one, really enjoyed this because I just have such a fun time talking to Tom and Cecil every time. I could talk to them for for hours, I really could, um, so I hope you enjoyed it too, and in either case, I will see you on Thursday for the conclusion, the exciting and long conclusion of cognitive dissonance. All right. See you guys then.