AS135: Being Raised A Mormon Girl, with Megan

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 135 with your host Thomas Smith. With me right now is Megan. How are you, Megan?

0:00:42 Megan: I'm good. Thanks for inviting me on.

0:00:45 Thomas: Oh, thanks for letting me know you... thanks for volunteering. I'm very excited because Megan had messaged me about the fact that she heard the Mormon... ex-Mormon podcast I did, and it was good, but we had all-male voices, and she said, are you interested in, you know, the female perspective on That? And I said, absolutely, yes, and so I'm really excited to hear about it. So If you don't mind can you give you know your background and and as regards religion and we'll start To dissect the the differences and stuff and it'll be fun. Yeah.

0:01:05 Megan: Great, great, huh, absolutely. So, I guess I could start with my Mormon cred, right. I was raised Mormon. My, on one side of my family were from pioneer stock, and went back several generations of Mormons, plenty of polygamous ancestors on one one side.

0:01:25 Thomas: Yeah.

0:01:40 Thomas: So.

0:01:40 Megan: And then on my other side, yep, on the other side I have great-grandparents that immigrated from Germany right before World War II to join the church. So I've had a pretty, pretty most, I would say, pretty much all of my family is Mormon on both sides with a few slowly sneaking their way out. But yeah, very, very strong Mormon ties. Grew up in Utah.

0:02:02 Thomas: You're saying that all nine or ten of your grandparents are Mormon, is that what you're say? No, I'm just kidding.

0:02:07 Megan: Oh yeah, yeah, probably. I'm not, I haven't quite kept track of that. My My grandparents are really into genealogy. That's a big Mormon thing. Most Mormons are all into that stuff. And my grandparents like to downplay that polygamy aspect of our past.

0:02:25 Thomas: Yeah. I was gonna say that must look interesting on that family tree. Like, what do you do with that?

0:02:28 Megan: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. It really is kind of funny. And it's kind of, I don't know, with such a strong, like, in Mormonism, you'd think, oh, that's just something you used to do. At least for, you know, the Mormon church that spread in Salt Lake City and not the other kind of break-off groups. But people especially are very, it's a very taboo topic to talk about polygamy in the Mormon past. People really are uncomfortable with that, for sure. That's not a nice thing, but, oh, that would be, yeah, I'm not sure I would say so. So both of those, I think, most Mormons would try to steer clear of and change the subject really quickly, I think. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I grew up mostly in Utah, a little bit in Idaho. And that's pretty heavily, both those areas were pretty heavily populated by Mormons. What some people might

0:02:31 Thomas: Yeah, right.

0:02:50 Thomas: Which is more taboo, that, or the thing about them not allowing black people into the church? Tough contest. Yeah. Yeah.

0:03:34 Megan: Call the Morador. That's my favorite term for like this kind of strip of the United States that is quite a A few Mormons have a – there's a big population of Mormons in that area.

0:03:45 Thomas: That's Awesome. I love it. Plus there's a big tower, right, with an eye on top of it, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Well, I guess there is that Mormon, whatever that tower is, right? Yeah, well, it's that.

0:03:46 Megan: Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, that's in Salt Lake. I'm not sure. We have our temple down in Salt lake, but – Oh,

0:03:59 Thomas: Oh, maybe it, maybe tower's the wrong word, but there's, that isn't there? Um, what is it with the the thing on top of it? What am I thinking of? Come on, Mormon.

0:04:06 Megan: Maybe, like, this is the place, maybe? Like, I think there's an old statue. Like, this Is the Place, kind of the Brigham Young statue, maybe. I'm Not sure.

0:04:09 Thomas: What's that? Okay. Yeah, maybe that's it. Yeah. Well,

0:04:15 Megan: Yeah. Yeah, we have a couple.

0:04:16 Thomas: Put an eyeball on top of that, would you? And then

0:04:17 Megan: Yeah, We'll do that. We'll Do that for sure. Yeah, maybe some googly eyes, like a little googly eye. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

0:04:18 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Keep an eye on all the sinners, sinners.

0:04:26 Megan: Yep. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. And yeah, so I grew up really strong, you know, Mormon. There's, you know, very believing. I had my, you, know, issues with the culture and with the doctrines really young, but I, you now, was a good little Mormon girl. I, you know had a great relationship with my parents, never had any issues of being rebellious teenager or anything like that. And yeah, I went to LDS Seminary in high school. I'm not sure if your listeners are familiar with that, but if you're a good Mormon kid and you're in a heavily populated Mormon town, they'll build a building right next to the high school and you'll have a release period. All the Mormons will walk over to that building and go to seminary and it'll just all be just Mormon doctrine and you'll go over, you know, you'll switch the different scriptures every year and memorize a bunch of scriptures and all that for the four years you're in high school.

0:04:27 Thomas: Oh, So, It's like, uh, is it, you said if you're a good More is it like a accelerated thing, or is it only for no? Okay, like a separate programmed Oh, it's expected.

0:05:30 Megan: Yep. No, no, it's, yeah, it'd be kind of expected. Yeah, kind

0:05:41 Thomas: Okay.

0:05:41 Megan: Of expected.

0:05:41 Thomas: That,

0:05:42 Megan: If you are in somewhere where there's less of a Mormon presence, you will usually have have it as a church calling. So in the church, they'll ask them to do an early morning seminary class, and the teenagers will probably go over there to that teacher and learn about the scriptures, usually probably about five in the morning. I got to go early morning seminary at the school I was at in Boise for a while, and also when I moved back to Utah, Utah, nice early six in the morning to learn about Jesus and the Book of Mormon and all that fun stuff for four years of high school.

0:06:23 Thomas: Sounds horrible. Yeah.

0:06:24 Megan: Yeah, it was exciting. Yeah. It was it was very interesting. I have some I don't know why, but a lot of seminary teachers are a little bit crazy.

0:06:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:06:37 Megan: They're maybe it's because they just teach teenagers about the Book Mormon all the time, but they're very eccentric characters for sure, let's put it that way, a lot of them are really like nice cool people, but you tended to get some some eccentric type that would probably be the best way to put it. I'm not sure if that was just my experience or common, but yeah.

0:06:41 Thomas: That's just part of it. Well, I do remember that, uh, um, some of the, let's see, one of, or maybe both of my past, my Mormon guests, I I remember their missions, I think they had some colorful characters there, that they didn't, didn't like, so it's got to take a weird kind of person to want to do some of that stuff, you know, not always, but Yeah, all

0:07:05 Megan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yes. Yes, yeah, uh-huh, for sure, yeah, and it's really, yeah. It's really interesting, I think a lot of it comes from, I had a friend who has since left the Mormon Church but he started the process of learning to be a CES instructor, church educational system instructor, seminary teacher, and he started that process while he was at BYU to become a seminary teacher, and I think like for a lot people it's just the sense of like doing good, right? Like with any, you know, if you go to be a teacher in just any regular subject. I think it's, oh, you're going to help these teenagers, you're gonna guide them along, you know, show them, you know, how to be a good human being and do the right thing. And I think that's, at least for a lot of people, and for my friend, definitely, that was, that was a big appeal is to just, you know, be a Good Mormon and help other people, you you know, young kids be good Mormons too.

0:08:10 Thomas: Right, well, you've got, uh, so you're going through this all through high school and doing those extra classes, which I'm sure a load of fun, and oh,

0:08:12 Megan: Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't know if your other guests, I don't believe they talked about, like, the young women's, young men's groups at all.

0:08:28 Thomas: No.

0:08:28 Megan: None of that?

0:08:28 Thomas: That sounds familiar, but I might be remembering it from something else. I don't think Bill and Gerald talked about that, so feel free to

0:08:31 Megan: Yeah. I don''t think they did, but, so, quick summary. Once you turn turn 12, whether you're a boy or girl, you'll start attending, well, maybe I should go back a little bit. Our church every Sunday is three hours long. So yeah. And usually there's a bunch of other activities associated with the Sunday as well, but three hours at least. And you'll have sacrament meeting where everyone, family, kids are all at a meeting. Members of the church will give talks, um, you'll take the sacrament, that sort of thing, uh, afterwards you go to, if you're a teenager, 12, um, through 18, you'll go to young women's, young men, uh, the boys and girls are divided up of course, and the boys at that point will get the priesthood and the girls learn a lot about housekeeping and keeping the the boys innocent and pure, because, because, of course, we are the reason that young men would have incure thoughts and naughty things like masturbating and that sort of thing.

0:08:47 Thomas: Sure. Yeah. How,

0:09:37 Megan: And so we'll have lessons about that. And we would start every of that time at church doing a little, what was it called? Oh, it's been so long now. The Young Women's Theme. Yes, that's what it was called. And it was this kind of mantra we recited about how we would strengthen home and family and and all these virtues that we try to aspire to and how we'd be great mothers and Zion, you know, eventually and that sort of thing. So yeah, I think the biggest differences between how a young Mormon male is raised and a young Mormon female is raised I think really starts at that age where the narratives of how you're expected to be really start in that class and you learn, okay, well this is what's expected of me.

0:10:26 Megan: The boys are expected, like your guest last time talked about, are expected to go on a mission, come back, get married, that sort of thing. Make sure that they can be good providers for their family and the girls are taught, okay, you're supposed to stay modest, stay covered so you don't tempt those evil young men, uh, to evil, and, um, prepare, and so that preparation to be a mother, um, so I think those are the the chief differences, um, at that age and how, you know, our roles diverge especially at that point.

0:10:58 Thomas: Did, how did you, uh, receive that message? Did that go down well with you? Hmm. Well,

0:11:01 Megan: Oh, I, no, no. I think, and I really struggled with that message that my purpose as a woman, Mormons are very, it's very clear that your role as a women, your divine role, you know, this is what God intends your purpose to be on this earth. Um, yeah, yes, oh, yeah, this is a big deal, your your role as a woman is to get married to a worthy priesthood holder, preferably an RM, of course, uh, return missionary, and to have lots of children and, um, raise them to be good Mormons, and, you, that was very much drilled into me as a kid and I really struggled with that. Um, I really struggle with, um, depression as well as that, that, uh, around that time. And I had just so little confidence and just being told that this is, this is what you must do. You must get married. You have to do this. And I just sat there thinking, I know, I don't want that.

0:11:19 Thomas: Yeah, they gotta sell it, it's yeah, your premium roll, wow, yeah.

0:11:56 Megan: I, I, well, I don't, I want to, you know, this, all this focus on getting married and, and, uh. Like, I'm not really interested in getting married or having kids anytime soon. You know, I want to, even though I don't think there's any, are, they're pretty good at encouraging young women to go to college, but it's more for the purpose, and I think this kind of goes back to what your guest was saying last time, to get an education, yes, but also to get married, and that education that you receive in college is all, it's kind of like a plan and be, you know, it's okay, something happens to your husband, you get sick, you know, at least you won't be high and dry. And because there's so much focus on men are the providers, men are the presiders in the household, women, you know, if, you know, I had a lot of, I had one person that I went to BYU. So I have some fun stories about that, too, that we could go into if you want.

0:11:57 Thomas: Yeah, right, surprise.

0:12:56 Thomas: Surprise. Yeah, Oh,

0:12:58 Megan: Surprise, isn't it? And it's so funny, because I really never thought I'd go to BYU. I think that was kind of my push against Mormon culture going back to the time when I was 12 and even women were being told, this is what you should do, this is wat you need to do, and this is what you SHOULD want, and feeling very guilty that I didn't want that. I didn't want to have a ton of kids, I didn't want to, you know, I had so many friends that were so, just planning their weddings things and just being very excited. Kind of, it's, I wonder if it connects to, uh, I know a lot of Mormons, especially, um, women Mormons that are, just love Disney and love that Disney princess thing and Just obsessed with it.

And, and that was kind of the message that you're fed, that you are daughters of gods, you know, you, you are, um, you know, you're a princess and your prince is going to, um, take you to this palace, the temple, right, to get married. And you're going to get married and you're just gonna be taken care of because you're a beautiful, wonderful princess. And I think that was a lot of the stuff that really made me uncomfortable as a kid and as a teenager and to this day was that that kind of benevolent sexism, like putting women on a pedestal, you're

0:13:28 Thomas: Yeah, yeah,

0:14:12 Megan: Perfect, you're more spiritual, you know, you need to be, you need to stay at home and just raise these kids because you are just so naturally nurturing, nurturing and wonderful. Kids, like why would we want some, you know, uh, why do you want men to stay at home when we were just, just meant to be, you know, there and didn't tell the kids and just innately better at that sort of thing. Oh.

0:14:12 Thomas: Did You have anyone to talk about this too where you're, where You?

0:14:38 Megan: No. No.

0:14:38 Thomas: Okay, so Were your parents right there along with that message, right?

0:14:40 Megan: Absolutely. Absolutely, and I mean, my parents, I had great parents, but they were very invested, um, in in those teachings. My mom, um, and this might be an interesting statistic for you and your listeners, uh, Utah has the highest rate of women dropping out of college, um. And Yeah, and um, get

0:14:58 Thomas: Yeah. Because They get their MRS or What, but

0:15:02 Megan: Married. Yeah. They get married, um, usually, uh, they have kids like that, that's what my mom did. She, uh, got pregnant with me her junior year of, uh, college, after she married my dad and, um, dropped out of school, uh, and my dad was planning on getting a master's degree somewhere else, so they just left and did his, you, uh, know, he was in charge of providing, so of course you would, um, do what, uh, whatever is needed so that my dad could be a provider, um, I have an interesting anecdote about that, uh, it's not mine but I think it kind of shows a really good example of what it's like to be a Mormon woman and going to college. My husband and was out with a few female friends.

0:15:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:15:48 Megan: He attended BYU as well. All these girls were, you know, Mormon girls from BYU. And one of the girls was talking about how she was about to graduate college. She had this great job lined up and she was super excited about it. But then she said, well, I'm just worried about getting into a relationship because then that means that we'll have to move away. You know, so he can pursue what he wants to do. Right. And in school that he wants to do, whatever that might be, especially since women are often expected to get careers that are high earning, usually like doctors, lawyers, that sort of thing. It's a very common business. They focus on that.

0:16:33 Megan: And my husband was really surprised about this. He's like, why? That's stupid. Like, why would you do what was best for you and your spouse? You You know, if it would be your job or his job, whatever, you know, you make a decision based on what we got to do with the family. And she said, well, everything I do is a plan B. All of my education and career goals are always plan B because his career and educational goals have to take precedence, right?

0:16:57 Thomas: Oh man.

0:16:58 Megan: Yeah, so it's, so I think, you have plenty of women going to college, more women who are encouraged to do that, but always with the expectation that whatever they have planned, as far as or education goes, is always plan B. So if they marry a nice guy and get, um, and he wants to go to school in another state, uh, well then they do that no matter where they are at their, you know, in their degree program or, or you know, um, what they're doing, you know, no matter how much they're invested into that. And, um, so yeah, it's a very, uh, it's very strong narrative that you're taught to, you know, being a woman and a man, of course. And I think your guests talked quite a bit about that.

0:17:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:17:41 Megan: And what was expected in that path as well.

0:17:45 Thomas: Yeah, it's really frustrating. I don't know why religion, especially Mormonism, has to be so married to these gender roles. It's like, why?

0:17:50 Megan: Yeah. Oh, yes. Well, we have a gerontocracy, right? All our church leaders are elderly men. And so that 1950s mentality of a woman stays home and has children, takes care of the house, and then goes out and provides, I think is where that mainly comes from.

0:18:15 Megan: And it's just what's being taught. And that's why Mormon culture and Mormon doctrine is always a good 40, 50 years behind the times.

0:18:25 Thomas: Yeah, well, yeah, and it might be interesting sometime to talk about, like, there are definitely positive consequences of some of these doctrines. Like, I like the fact that, you know, someone, it sucks that it's only men, but that someone is being encouraged to be a provider and go find, you know, a good career. And I think that surprisingly, well, maybe not surprisingly, but a very very significant. Um, there, there seems to be a very significant difference in, in, uh, how well Mormons do relative to everyone else. Like they do pretty well for themselves and

0:18:26 Megan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-mm.

0:19:07 Thomas: It's just a shame that, you know, they can't just apply that to either side. I mean, how about anyone just be, get a good job and be a provider and, You know, do what's, do its best for, for both of you. Rather so frustrating.

0:19:08 Megan: Mm-hm. Yeah. What? Yeah. Yeah, well, I think that that goes to how boys, how boys are raised differently than girls in the Mormon church. Is the boys are trained to be leaders, um, and, to you know, there is, I can only think of one exception where, um, a man is not over a woman in the church organization, um, in every sense, except for, you have, um, primary, right? The kind of children's, uh, where the children's will, will go for church lessons during that hour of that three-hour Sunday block. They only have women as primary presidents. And so you might have some, usually it's couples that are the teachers underneath that primary president and will teach the children. But that's the only time where have a female that might have some authority over a man. But in every other

0:19:19 Thomas: Yeah. It's Sure.

0:20:08 Megan: Situation, it's always, you have, you know, The bishop, which is kind of the, I'm trying to think of a good parallel, like a priest, right? The leader of the congregation, right, everything, whether it's the ward clerk, the two counselors the bishop has, everywhere else it's always male authority over female authority.

0:20:34 Thomas: And This, this goes without saying, but I, I want to just say it, you know, how, how depressing is it to think about how many talented and intelligent women may have missed out on, and society may have missed out on these women, you know? How depressing is that? That.

0:20:38 Megan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. It's very true. And you have a lot of groups nowadays of liberal Mormon feminists that have been really trying to change those things and bring awareness, you know, and they've met a lot of resistance, uh, yeah.

0:20:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, you don't say.

0:21:09 Megan: And um, there's some, great, it's been picked up by the news, um, you know, bigger media outlets, like, about Ordained Women, and how they're really pushing for women to be ordained to the priesthood, because of course they cannot be ordain to the priest, which

0:21:23 Thomas: Well, that would be sort of toward the bottom of my list of things that, yeah, I

0:21:24 Megan: I would, I would say so too, yeah, it's really interesting moving out of the church and being like, I don't think that would really help, I think yeah I mean, it might be better, but the whole institution, I'd rather just disappear, you know, I would much rather, that, you know, any, any good that it does, um, I think is despite the church, you know, as an organization.

0:21:34 Thomas: Mean, I guess it couldn't hurt, but right.

0:21:49 Megan: Um, and it's because the individual members that are just good, decent human beings that are trying to do their best. But, yeah, the recent news with Organe Women was their founder, leader, Kate Kelly, was excommunicated. I think this was last summer. Yes, that's right. So any kind of push, especially by a woman, doesn't go so well. Um, it, it's just not, uh, you know, I think there's a sense when all your, everyone that has authority over you is a man in church, um, and everyone on the stand, you know, that's presiding over a meeting, um, are men, uh, when you read the scriptures, right, um, there's very few women, uh, in, in all our teaching materials, there's very few quotes from women.

0:21:49 Thomas: Well

0:22:43 Megan: It's all from, obviously, we have male prophets and Joseph Smith, right, and male priesthood leaders. So it's so ingrained in that culture that I think there's not very many good examples for the women of the church to see, oh, yeah, I can be a leader. Um, I can, you know, uh, it's just, it's very much, we're just not expected to speak up or take leadership roles, you know. I just put it that way.

0:23:07 Thomas: Yeah, obviously it's very geared geared toward men. And there's, there's not currently in any incentive to change that until, you know, people start speaking up more, you know.

0:23:11 Megan: Oh, no. No. Yeah. And, and that, I think, was really distressing, um, to see the reaction of women saying, okay, this is a problem, you know, um, the fact that, for example, the L.E.S. Church has this women's organization that they like to say is the longest running women's organization in America. But what's really funny is, and it's called the Relief Society, sorry I should mention that, Relief Society.

0:23:44 Megan: And it used to have, until I think about the 60s, it used to have the women that were in charge of the Relieve Society had a lot more say in what was taught during the Relief Society portion of that three-hour block at church, what things were discussed and their budget, that sort of thing. But in the 60s, I'm pretty sure because of the Equal Rights Amendment and all the controversy around that and feminism, that power was taken away from the Relieve Society leaders and put back into the hands of the male leadership. Leadership. So nowadays, all the Relief Society materials and lessons all have to be approved by a male priesthood leader in the church.

0:24:34 Megan: And there's also interesting facts about history where women used to be allowed to give priesthood blessings in our history as well. There's lots of ways that women's power in the church has been kind of slowly less and less, I think, especially with the advent of feminism and those fears, I don't think conservative people might, yeah.

0:25:01 Thomas: Well, let's get back to your storyline, if you don't mind. So you, you did go, I think, let us see, where were we last? You were going through, you now, high school and getting that terrible message and with no one to really talk to about it. And I, I do not want to, I, do not know too much about your age or anything, but But did you have the Internet as an outlet for for any of that or.

0:25:04 Megan: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I'm 24 now, um, so uh, when I went to college, I went BYU, and I wasn't very particular how I, you know, a lot of there, I think there is kind of like a push, like, oh, BYU, you know, you want to go there, and you know, I was always told, maybe it's just a Utah thing, but, oh, it's such a great, you know, college, and because you're a member it's so cheap, and so there was kind of that, like, BYU is a great place to go, and that kind of push, and my parents were really pushing me to do that, and my senior year of high school I was just having fun, I wasn't too worried, so I wasn' too concerned about where I was going to go, so I thought, well, they want me to go there, and you know, I'm a good kid, so I'll just go there, it's not going to be a big deal, um, but

0:25:30 Thomas: OK, well, you say you're a good kid. So, I mean, you didn't I guess those concerns over the Mormon message about women was not enough to derail.

0:26:11 Megan: No. No. No. Well, I think I, as uncomfortable as that made me, and as angry as it made me, I can remember times thinking, this was when I was young, probably like 12 or 13, where I'm like, I don't want to get married, I don't want to have kids, I'm going to hell, which is kind of funny, especially since women don't really believe in hell, um, not really, anyway, it's, it's more, um, it's our version would be, our, I say, our, their version would be, uh, outer darkness, right, and so, um, the only way you get there is if you deny the Holy Ghost, right, so it's a very difficult place to get to, um, but you have the three heavens, right, you have this celestial, the telestial, and the celestial, I think I might be mixing some of those up, but the celestial is the highest, and that's the one that you go to if you're a good Mormon, you pay your tithing, you go through the temple, you get baptized, anyway, but I can, I'm digressing a little.

0:26:21 Thomas: OK. Oh, really?

0:27:18 Thomas: No,

0:27:18 Megan: Bit, um, so yeah.

0:27:19 Thomas: That's OK. I don't I don't mind. Finish

0:27:20 Megan: It's all, it's all fascinating, crazy stuff.

0:27:20 Thomas: The thought. I didn't. I didn't know about these three heavens. I don't think I remember them mentioning it.

0:27:23 Megan: Um, yeah. Yeah. So yeah. It's really interesting, and I wish I could remember, I always get the last two mixed up, but yeah, the celestial, that's where you want to go, right? It's just perfection. Yeah.

0:27:34 Thomas: Okay, so when I'm punching my ticket, I need to make sure to say, Celestial Heaven, please.

0:27:41 Megan: It's Yes, yes, although you need to make sure that you, the 10 to the church, so you can go to the temple and

0:27:45 Thomas: I'm out. Yeah. No, actually, I do everything from the church I could almost do except the football commitment on Sunday. That's just not... I mean, I'm not even that big of a football fan, but still, there's just no way. I mean...

0:27:49 Megan: Uh-huh. Yeah. That was that three-hour block, plus, um, you know, other meetings.

0:28:02 Thomas: Yeah, there is no way I want to be watching football. And then if you're a kid, it's even worse. You got to go to another thing after that for hours. Oh man. Out. I'm out.

0:28:05 Megan: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep, yeah. And you, yeah.

0:28:14 Thomas: If it's between a football-less life and then going to, you know, outer darkness, I'll take outer darkness. Maybe there's football there.

0:28:22 Megan: Yeah, I kind of realized about myself, I'm like, I'm okay with that, I'll be being good company. But so then you have the next lowest, which is either terrestrial or telestial. I can't quite remember which goes first. It's been a while since I've been attending church, but you have the middle one. And that's for people that are otherwise good human beings. They just didn't receive the truth and the, you know, the gospel of salvation, right? That comes from the Mormon church. So just good, you now, God-fearing people that did good in their life, they go in the middle one, the last one, this is the one for atheists, uh, for rapists, for murderers, right, uh, and it's the least nice heaven, it's just not quite as nice.

0:28:27 Thomas: Oh, but it's still heaven? Oh, well, that's fine. I'll just go there. That sounds, yeah.

0:29:06 Megan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep, yeah. Yeah. I'll just hang out, yeah, yep.

0:29:14 Thomas: How many

0:29:14 Megan: Just have, like, a little atheist section. You know, really pretty bad in the lowest, yeah.

0:29:16 Thomas: Channels do you get there? Do you know? Have they worked that out? Uh, Bad Reception, yeah.

0:29:24 Megan: I I bet you get a lot of static. Yes. Although not even

0:29:24 Thomas: Maybe I can bring some rabbit ears, yeah. Okay. Well, I'll, I'll wait until they issue some, you know, like official decrees about which channels I get, but I think for now I'm okay, you know, I think I'm okay with, with the third heaven, okay, all right, yeah.

0:29:27 Megan: Yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And going back, your guest mentioned also, like, the whole idea of becoming a god and having your own planet, that only is for just a very, think, even, oh, this is, this has been so long, the celestial, it's technically divided up into three other sections, and if you're the highest of the highest, you know, kingdom of heaven, the celestial kingdom, that's when you get to be a god and make your own planets and people and that sort of thing, but you have to be married, you know, and yeah, that's a big

0:29:46 Thomas: Okay.

0:30:16 Thomas: So that's, is that, but is that something as a Mormon, is every Mormon thinking, yeah, I'm gonna have my my own planet. I'm probably gonna do it? Okay, yeah.

0:30:25 Megan: Draw, like, you would have people. And it's funny because I think our, the Mormon Church's previous prophet, Gordon Hinkley, he said on, I think it was 15 minutes, Larry King, I can't quite remember, but he, he was saying, like, oh, I don't know that we teach that people can become gods. I've never heard that. And it's hilarious to someone who grew up Mormon because that is a big deal. That's something that's mentioned quite a bit just as kind of a fun little thing. You know, on my planet, you know, we're only going to have, I don't know, like mountains. I can go skiing or whatever, you know, the big, whatever the big draw is, you Know, my planet is, You know it's kind of like this fun, exciting thing

0:30:26 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. On

0:31:09 Megan: For Mormons.

0:31:09 Thomas: My planet up is down, left is right, and dogs and cats will live together in harmony. All.

0:31:14 Megan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a big, like, exciting draw, I think, for LDS people, you know, being a god on the planet and having, you know, authority over that.

0:31:27 Thomas: Right, so you, you're at BYU, you're, where are we here, stupid?

0:31:31 Megan: Yes, BYU, the, probably, um, a huge mistake for me to go to BYU, although, although, um, it helped me to, uh, get to the place where I am now, and I'm a much happier, healthy person, so maybe it all worked out for the best, uh, but BYU is a really interesting place because all the quirks and And eccentricities of Mormon culture are just such an extreme at BYU. It's like this whole pressure cooker of just everything that's just terrible about Mormon culture. And there's also, you know, also you see a lot of good aspects of it, but a lot of its worst aspects of sexism and homophobia and just this sense of, you trying to keep these college students as children and giving them very little freedom while they're there and very little academic freedom as well.

0:32:31 Megan: And, you know, despite I had great professors, I had really awesome professors. And I think that's why I kind of taught myself into staying there even when I was transitioning out of the church. And there's lots of other factors to that. But it is a really interesting place to go to as a Mormon who's believing, at least at first, but still struggling with some of the aspects of Mormonism.

0:32:56 Thomas: Question, is it just assumed, like, is it a hundred percent Mormon there? I mean, it's just every professor and every 98 percent, what would I

0:33:02 Megan: Not 100%. There's actually a small amount of Muslims that go to BYU. BYU has a very strict, what we call an honor code, where it's an honor Code of modesty, right? Right? Us girls, we have to wear shorts to the knee.

0:33:05 Thomas: Huh. Uh,

0:33:19 Megan: You know, we can't wear any tank tops. You got to wear some sleeve shirts. You're not allowed to have piercings. The boys are not allowed to have beards, although they may have a mustache, which is kind of weird.

0:33:33 Megan: And it's all, it's all very, the whole honor code, I think, came about in the 60s. And, it was, it, it was a very, like, anti-hippie movement, you know. So, the boys didn't have long hair, they need to share oh so much so much, though. And it's, it's, you, you, when you live on campus there's certain rules, but if you go to be why you have to live within a two-mile radius of the campus, and you have to live in you why if you do I approved housing, so there's third enroll rules that go along with that, some of them are just basic, like, oh, the kids, let's have a desk provided by the landlord, and they must, you know, have this big of a space to live in, but

0:33:42 Thomas: There's still some dated references in there, yeah. Oh Yeah. Let

0:34:18 Megan: There's of Course not, no, not under the same roof, not under the same room. So if there's an apartment building where the the roots next, you know, you can have them in the same area, so, yeah, so, no, no co-ed, you know, stuff going on. There's also really funny things, like, there's kind of this rule, rule against, um, members of the opposite sex using your bathroom. Uh, most people ignored that because it was so ridiculous, um, but that was kind of like, try not to let them in the bathroom, but if there's an emergency,

0:34:18 Thomas: Me guess men and women not living together, yeah.

0:34:53 Megan: I guess that's all right, um, and then of course yeah sometimes

0:34:55 Thomas: Do you have to go I I'd be curious if there's an official application process in event of emergency, like, dude, this is an emergency, I need to go, someone call the church I need you to use your restroom really badly, is

0:35:02 Megan: Felt that way, um, but uh, there was Yes. Oh goodness, yes, um, yeah, I kind of felt that way sometimes. And of course there's no, no members of the opposite sex that are allowed in your bedroom. There are certain rules about curfew. So I think it depended on the day. But it was usually before midnight you had to take, you know, the members of the opposite six out of your room.

0:35:23 Thomas: BYU entirely private, or is it okay just, just wondering, yeah.

0:35:26 Megan: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-huh. And so they get away with a lot of interesting things.

0:35:33 Thomas: Well private school, I mean, I I, you know, a private school can do what you want to a reasonable degree, I mean, that's fair. Well

0:35:39 Megan: And that's actually kind of an interesting thing. BYU has this fun policy where if you're a Mormon at BYU and you decide to leave Mormonism or switch to another religion, you are booted out of the university.

0:35:55 Megan: Whereas, you know, you could be a non-Mormon and go to BYU. You'd still have to go through the process of getting what we call an ecclesiastical endorsement from whoever your church leader was. And if you convert to Mormonism, you're great, you'RE good. But if you are a Mormon who then leaves Mormonism while at BYU, you are kicked out of BYU.

0:36:14 Thomas: That, I'm surprised they can get away with that, part because, yeah.

0:36:17 Megan: Well, what's really interesting is there is a group of former BYU students, a lot of them ex-Mormons, that are petitioning whoever regulates BYU as an academic university and is making the case that that's ridiculous. And yeah, exactly, exactly.

0:36:33 Thomas: I think that, I don't know that you're allowed to violate, you know, constitutionally protected rights in that way. Even if you're

0:36:40 Megan: Yep. And so that's basically their argument. So I'm interested to see how this, um, how that will turn out. Um, so yeah, well, here's what happened. So I had a really tough year at BYU. Um. My first year, I was so depressed. Um... I've always struggled with depression, but that was, that was rough. I didn't really fit in very well. Um. I just wasn't really interested in, let's see, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to swear, but the BS, right, um,

0:36:40 Thomas: Yeah but you said you decided to stay, how did that, how does that work, oh, yeah

0:37:11 Megan: Yeah

0:37:11 Thomas: You're fine, don't worry about it.

0:37:13 Megan: So, uh, there, it's really interesting at BYU, there's a lot of, um, I don't know what it is, maybe this aspect of, uh, the church and, you know, the the rules, um, at the university, trying to keep, uh, these 18-year-old, you know, 18-year-olds and up, a lot like children, but, um, it's kind of like, like a meat market at BYU, you, you go to all the church activities and and, um, Sunday school, right, to see and be seen, right, because you're all looking for the person you're going to get married, right? You want to find the hot RM to get married to, uh, to the point where the ward directory, right, the church directory, um, would, uh, have your picture and your number right in the ward, that was called the menu.

0:37:48 Thomas: What

0:38:04 Megan: So it was all very much like this, just to focus on, you know, getting dates and getting married and oh, he's a cute RM. You know, oh, she's really hot.

0:38:13 Thomas: Was that last thing, cute

0:38:14 Megan: The cute RM, the return missionary, right? The RM. Oh, and that reminds me, cute, cute.

0:38:16 Thomas: Oh oh, oh, yeah. Yeah, oh cute RM oh, sorry, I thought you said QRM

0:38:24 Megan: Sorry. No, sorry.

0:38:25 Thomas: And I was like what is the Q

0:38:26 Megan: But not another acronym. But that does remind me, your noncommittal make out, um, so

0:38:26 Thomas: For oh yeah I was gonna ask you about that, okay.

0:38:32 Megan: Real, so real, both me and my husband.

0:38:34 Thomas: Good I you, maybe I, you know, no offense to Bill and Gerald, perhaps they just, just weren't invited to any, not because, I, I knew that was a real thing, I was like, I've heard this from more than one person, okay, Nick, mo yeah yeah yeah, oh man that's funny well I want to hear about nick most because it sounds hilarious, so but, but, feel free to finish your your story first.

0:38:35 Megan: Yeah yeah it is yeah yeah, well, um, yeah, both me, my husband, like, no, that's such a thing, it's a NICMO is the acronym for that totally totally it's such a thing and totally at BYU yeah it's hilarious well yeah Oh, yeah, well, so BYU is very, just, just, just so much about all the church activities are all about, you know, learning awkwardly, um, and I just wasn't very interested in going to that, those activities, not just because it was just silly and and stuff I wasn't interested in anyway, but I got a lot of judgment from that, um, for not going to these extra little things. You have something called a ward prayer, where your church group group gets together, I think usually Sunday evenings, and the bishop comes in and gives a little message, and a few people say prayers, lots of things, and usually I was working on homework, or if there's some Relief Society thing going on on Wednesday that I usually wasn't interested in, it was kind of like, well, if you're not going, there's something wrong with you.

0:39:50 Megan: If you're going to some sort of fireside, like, why? Like, what are you doing? Like, why aren't you going? And there's this big push to be like really social and really involved, and I just, besides the fact I was totally depressed, is I was focused on my school work, you know, and there was plenty of times I'm like, no, I got homework to do, like, I'm, I'm not gonna go do that, but I get people asking me to come, oh oh

0:40:14 Thomas: What were you studying so I, I don't think you mentioned oh neat okay well

0:40:17 Megan: A theater theater, yeah. Which also got me a little flack, I don't know, it's well, and, and it's funny because the theater department, I think, was the only way I could survive at BYU. You get a lot of a lot more liberal people, and had some great professors.

0:40:23 Thomas: Why do they even have that major then, yeah. Yeah it is really weird because someone has a theater, uh, background, myself, like, it is, it would be weird to imagine a conservative theater like that just is bizarre to me.

0:40:39 Megan: Yeah. Oh, I Have a good illustration of exactly what you're talking about is BYU found a lot of theater majors that they were sending out did not know any theater practices, plays, you know, past 1960, we did very few things that were new because they usually called terrible swearing

0:41:05 Thomas: Yeah. So, you guys didn't have the BYU production of Hair, is that what you're telling me?

0:41:09 Megan: No No, no, yeah, and there was a lot of things we couldn't do that were really silly that we just knew, so they started this class, it was a senior capstone class where we actually could read some modern pieces, and it was my favorite class at BYU, um, we were all asked to read a play that had been written in the past five years and do a little report, so I read Vagina Monologues, no, no, it wasn't that, it was, no, it was a Vagina Monologue, it was, um, it was the Vibrator Play, the Vibrater Play.

0:41:38 Thomas: Uh, I was gonna say because also, but Vagina Monologues is a bit older than than that. I think.

0:41:49 Megan: Yeah. Sorry.

0:41:49 Thomas: Yeah. I

0:41:50 Megan: No, no, yeah, I mixed them up, they're both about vaginas. I guess, but um, oh, it is brilliant. It is so good, and it's all about the invention of the vibrator, and and it really a play about relationships

0:41:52 Thomas: Don't know if I've heard of this vibrator one, well, I'll have to check it out. So it's actually, it is a a dramatic or or something script just with that as the subject matter or the background well, that's interesting.

0:42:09 Megan: Yes, it really is Yes, and if it's a beautifully written piece and just great story and messages in it and I did report on that

0:42:18 Thomas: So how was it received when you read this one? I mean, you are in a bit of a liberal group, right? Yeah.

0:42:22 Megan: Yes, I mean, you know, I, all the students there were excited to be free, you know, from the constraints that we were given, a lot of these kids were little kids to begin with, but there's just, they're just so that's why I just, there is an issue with academic freedom at BYU, you know, there really is, um, and a lot of professors are tied by what they can teach, uh, what they can do, there's been professors fired by what they've written, um, and uh, and so that class was just my favorite class, we were, we did performance art pieces, so, you know, we had, uh, one student, um, just covered himself and just all these horrible things, like all these, uh, just like, um, it was a message about like these these words and labels that we take on ourselves, and so he's just wearing these little shorts and just have these things written on him and and just all this amazing art that that these kids put together, um, that they could now do, and it was was an incredible class because it was the one class we're able to be like, no, I want to do this, you know, I'm going to

0:42:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:40 Thomas: That

0:43:28 Megan: Um, be naked and smash a mirror and it's going to, you know, like, it was it was just so freeing, um, but that was that was, yeah.

0:43:37 Thomas: Must have been nice. The one you, you know, one little tiny corner of BYU.

0:43:40 Megan: And and yeah, and it is so funny because that was the class where we were able to explore, um, more, uh, you know, modern theater and um ideas and stuff that was going on now, um, but otherwise, I think it was very, and it depended on your department, dependent on your professor, but you're really constrained by that, and going back to the sexism and and those that that, you know, just like it bugs me, before, at the beginning of the year, and I think this, I noticed this my second year at BYU is when they changed this and added it in, but I think it's pretty normal for most colleges, you get the syllabus at the beginning of each class, and then it has like a little section about disability and all that, you know, kind of law stuff that they have to put in there, um, and I noticed I think my junior or sophomore year that BYU had added a section about basically respecting female teachers, that they are okay to be there, that they should be respected, that you don't give them crap, you know, um, because that was very common.

0:43:51 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Well,

0:44:46 Megan: I had a teacher who would get reviews, student reviews, that were insulting her lesbian haircuts because she had short hair. I heard from another, I don't think she was technically a professor, but she was teaching a class and she got reviews from female students that basically she was too cute and distracting the male students. Been like that, that's really what it was, and just a lot of other dumb things about that, just just, um, critiquing female teachers, how they dress, what their haircut, you know, looks like, not respecting them, and I think that all kind of goes back to like, you know, it's okay for what you

0:45:26 Thomas: Yeah, I mean, you've bred a culture and an attitude that's going to have many prejudices about that sort of thing. And it's, yeah. And then you put all, you gather them all together and put them in a university. It's, you know. With very few exceptions. It is, yeah exactly.

0:45:32 Megan: And and um and it's why you know absolutely absolutely Absolutely. Pressure Cooker. Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, that's why I had, because I was studying education and theater at that point, I had someone ask me, like, oh, well, when I first met you, I thought you just were looking to get married, you, because you couldn't be going into a female-dominated career that had to do with working with children if you didn't then just want to get married. And frankly, it's not a ridiculous assumption to make because a lot of classes I had, education classes, a lot that my fellow students said, you know, this is a good career for being a mother. You know, This is why I'm doing this. And here's the thing, I do want to make clear. There's nothing wrong with being a stay-at-home mom. If that's truly what you want, that's great, go out and do it.

0:46:16 Thomas: Yeah.

0:46:26 Thomas: Yeah of course. And I agree with with that, but it's it's nice when it's actually you know, someone's choice and not something that's bred out of a culture of just repression and stuff, yeah.

0:46:26 Megan: Um yeah. Yeah exactly Yeah, exactly, and I think that's why I struggled so much with the idea that like, no, you need to be a mother, this is what you wants, if you don't want it, there's something wrong with you, you know, and and that's what just made me so uncomfortable because I especially, then I wasn't sure if I wanted to be a mother. I was pretty much against it at that time. Like, I don't know if I want that, you know? And it's funny.

0:47:00 Thomas: Well, good luck with that as a Mormon, that's crazy, yeah.

0:47:02 Megan: Yeah. Yeah, and it's funny, since leaving the church, though, you know, the notion of having kids is a lot more like, oh, maybe, maybe someday, you know? Now I feel like it's my choice, you know? It's not something that's expected of me. I can actually make that choice for myself.

0:47:15 Thomas: Well, Alright, that's it for part one with Megan. Join me for part two, and it's, there's a lot. It's a large part two on Thursday. Hey, I want to say that the book club idea I had is probably the best idea I've ever had. Not saying a whole lot, but it's really cool, and I also want to thank Danielle so much. Danielle was on, in the past, about AA, and it turns out she also loves reading and put together a Goodreads, I think is the website, group for the book club, and she's managing it, and I just want to thank Danielle so much for that. It's awesome. So you can still get in on it. Just go ahead and email me.

0:48:22 Thomas: I'm not totally sure how Goodreads works. You may be able to just search Goodreads for Atheistically Speaking or something and join the group that way, either way. But I believe our first book is decided, and it's going to be Pale Blue Dot. So that'll be our first one. And then I'm going to read it, we're all going to reading it, and we're going to get some sort of discussion. And the bottom line is, even if you're not in the reading club, what I'm really excited about is I want to bring just some learning to the show. You know, whatever we learn from the books, you know, once a month or whenever we finish a book, which will probably be about once a months, maybe longer, maybe shorter, depending on the length. I want to bring some knowledge to the show. I want us all to learn something. That's something I really want to do with this show. So that's going to be really fun.

0:49:08 Thomas: I'm really excited. And also, join the book club, latecomers, because there's a cool amount of discussion going on, introduction, and a social aspect to it as well. So that is definitely something you should take advantage of. Also, you should definitely pledge some support at patreon.com/atheist. But that goes without saying. All right. Thank you so much for joining me, and I will see you next episode.