AS125: Eiynah Nice Mangos

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:32 Thomas: Welcome to Atheistically Speaking, episode 125, with your host Thomas Smith. Joining me right now is Eiynah. Eiynah Nice Mangos, I'll say. How are you doing?

0:00:44 Eiynah: Good, good. How are you?

0:00:46 Thomas: I'm quite good. So, I've been following you on Twitter for a while, on your blog, and I saw recent posts about the, oh, another thing that I, I'm gonna make sure I can pronounce correctly, the niqab, or is that, how do you, okay. And I, it's an issue that you are are definitely very passionate and writing very passionately about. And I was very curious to talk about it. So thank you so much for joining me today.

0:01:02 Eiynah: Yeah, yeah.

0:01:17 Eiynah: Well, thank you for having me.

0:01:19 Thomas: Before we get to that, though, would you mind going into a bit of your background and possibly the reasons why you probably have to be a bit vague about your background?

0:01:30 Eiynah: Right, so, basically, I'm Pakistani-Canadian, raised in Saudi Arabia for much of my life, ex-Muslim, and that is the part that, you know, the reason that I have to stay vague about my background. I go by a pseudonym, I can't have my name attached to even you know some of my best pieces of work which is upsetting and people talking about the religion of peace and you know it being so peaceful and lovely I would just like to ask them why I can't exist you know in the public realm

0:02:08 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, it's pretty basic. Yeah. Wow, that's really sad. At what age did you, if you don't mind me asking, what age did you move? You said you were raised in Saudi Arabia and you...

0:02:18 Eiynah: Move from I moved here as a teenager I'm gonna keep it vague-ish uh but yeah, I, I moved here and then went to university here, no

0:02:24 Thomas: Okay. Sure, sure, sure. Just to establish how much experience you had in Saudi Arabian. It wasn't like you moved over as an infant or anything like that.

0:02:42 Eiynah: No no, and in Saudi Arabia, though, I grew up in a what they call a compound, so because we're not like native Saudis, we're Pakistanis, uh, we're foreigners, right, and so the Saudis and foreigners are usually kept very separate so we have very separate lives, uh, we don't experience much of the Saudi lifestyle especially if you're growing up in a westernized compound. So basically within our compound walls it's like a little city, we had women wearing shorts, driving, bathing topless at our pool, you know, there was alcohol, it was like a little, you know, American suburb, but once we leave the walls of the compound, say to go grocery shopping, then we have to put on the burqa and, or the abaya as it's called in Saudi, and then we briefly experience glimpses of life in Saudi but obviously not to the same degree that people that are actually Saudi experience, we don't have that same, I guess don't have the same pressure to wear the burqa and niqab and we just wear it to go shopping, that's it, and then take it off, but there's morality police in between, so

0:02:42 Thomas: Oh, that's so interesting. I didn't know about that. Mm hmm.

0:03:56 Thomas: Right. Jeez.

0:03:57 Eiynah: They will, exactly it's a very scary phase, uh, phrase

0:03:58 Thomas: That's a pretty scary phrase, by the way. I'm glad that's nothing I've ever had to experience. Morality police. So you mentioned that you're an ex-Muslim. How did you end up losing your faith? How did did you get out of the religion?

0:04:18 Eiynah: You know, I mean, it's something that I've questioned my whole life pretty much, I can't pin, you know, an age, I've always asked my mom questions about, you know, why, how do we know God exists if we don't see him, like as little as six, you know. And then I remember my parents used to send me to this Islamic class where I brought up evolution. And I was just honestly being curious as a kid, and the teacher was really upset with me for bringing up uncomfortable questions. So, I mean, just the little hypocrisies and the things that didn't line up. Like, all my life I questioned. And I guess in teenagehood somewhere I decided I didn't believe in religion, and then that progressed to not believing in God. It was a process, I guess, and unraveling, yeah

0:05:05 Thomas: Yeah. You know, that made me think of something. It's funny how the different religion, of course, but as growing up a bit of a Christian, not too serious, my family was, but it's funny, thinking back, the simple questions that kids ask, you know, that adults treat as like, oh, come on, how are you asking that? They end up being like the actually good questions about religion.

0:05:31 Thomas: I'm wondering, maybe there's no example of this, but just, just a shot in the dark, for me it was stuff like, hey, why, you know, how did Adam and Eve populate the entire world when it was just like, did their kids have sex, or how did that work, you know, that was always the question for, is, is there a, uh, Quran equivalent, or, or can you remember any of the questions that you had, right?

0:05:30 Eiynah: Yeah yeah well yeah I mean, we have the same story about Adam and Eve as well, so I used to ask about that in terms of evolution like so then what, like, are they, were they, you know, kind of, not did they not look like modern humans, did we evolve, you know, and so that just really just threw people off because, because it doesn't make sense.

0:05:59 Thomas: Yeah yeah, yeah, okay yeah yeah and then we, we have the flood story, do you, so okay okay, I wasn't sure, I didn't know that, okay apologize for my ignorance on that, I oh

0:06:19 Eiynah: Yeah, we have that too. Yeah. And the Abraham story. That's another one that was really upsetting to me as a child. That he had to, like, sacrifice his son. I remember my mom telling me that. And I was, like. Terrified. You know. And I'm like. Mom, you would never do that to me. If you heard, you know. God asking you. And she's like. No, of course I wouldn't. And then I'm, like,. Well, then. You know,. These things. They never made sense.

0:06:30 Thomas: Yeah yeah totally yeah yeah yeah so then you're a bad Muslim, or you're yeah, like, what's, there's no, no good answer there, yeah totally and, um, it's funny because they, and it's actually, it's kind of sad and somewhat horrifying sometimes, um, because they turn it into something good, you know, like, they turn into being a virtue if you were willing to, get you know, just murder your son, it's just, that's scary, I mean, I know, I, I know I'm not saying most religious people by any stretch would do that, but they do talk

0:06:52 Eiynah: Yeah. There is, yeah

0:07:23 Thomas: About it yeah exactly I mean, they do, you talk about and kind, kind of bend it into this thing of, of being, uh, some virtuous thing to do, it's weird yeah

0:07:23 Eiynah: But that is an example they live by right, yeah I mean, in, in, in our faith we have a lot of these examples, like Muhammad smashing idols, you know, and that's a good thing that he did, but I always thought of it as like, how, how awful to, you know, smash things that people hold dear that are not your property to smash, like this is not a good think, I don't care if they, they were, you know, idol worshippers or whatever. It's not your business.

0:07:58 Thomas: Yeah, that's just, you know, destroying someone else's property, that should be he should have faced, uh, fines or penalties for that, yeah well, I think that's kind of how you have to start a religion, you gotta destroy everyone else's idols, at least enough of them, so, uh, yeah, so vaguely, you're not sure what age, but, but roughly when did you identify, identify, and, and do you identify as an atheist, I think you said you did, okay, okay hmm

0:08:02 Eiynah: Exactly. Right, rather than get to start a religion.

0:08:25 Eiynah: Yeah, definitely. But that's, I feel like I've been hesitating to take on the label for a lot of my life.

0:08:33 Eiynah: I mean, I've been identifying as an agnostic since I was a teenager. Nature, um it's

0:08:38 Thomas: Is that a way to kind of bridge the gap a bit, just because there's so much pressure on ex-Muslims, or is that some other reason

0:08:46 Eiynah: Just, I guess logically it never made sense to me when I spoke to my atheist friends and they were like, well, I think you're an atheist, and I, you know, I think to myself, yeah, I think, I think I am, but I just, I didn't want to, I don't know, it just the way we've been conditioned in society, it's not even to do with my community, it's juste society, Western society in general is not so accepting of atheism as a, as a label, I feel like we're a minority that isn't, you know, really treated as a minority, yeah

0:09:18 Thomas: I can only, uh, speak for, for myself, and you're, uh, vaguely in Canada, so it's a little different, but yeah, I totally think that I've actually known lots of religious people who somehow it's okay if you're agnostic, but then if you say atheist, it's, I don't know if they, maybe they think they can still get you if you're agnostic or maybe they think, wow.

0:09:32 Eiynah: I don't know, I mean, I had a lot of agnostic friends and we all kind of bonded on just laughing about how silly religion was, but then once I took on the, you know, I'm an atheist and I'm not gonna pretend I'm not anymore, then I actually, um, lost some friends, Western friends, that we bonded over, you know, not liking religion in the first place, but they just couldn't handle the, I don't know, the leap to atheism, yes

0:09:57 Thomas: Yeah.

0:10:07 Thomas: Yeah, it's been weird for me too, because kind of coming out of college and I mean, that's some years ago, but as I was developing a stronger atheist identity, it was surprising to me how many liberals were really hostile toward it. It's weird. It's like, Like, oh, I thought you would have been the, I mean, liberals do nothing. Maybe it's different again in Canada. I don't know. But here, liberals doing nothing but make fun of the religious right so much.

0:10:33 Thomas: Like, just constantly. But then, if you say, like, well, yeah, the religion's dumb. I'm an atheist. It's like, whoa, whoa. Not going to go that far.

0:10:22 Eiynah: Yep yes yes yeah yeah and I feel that that's really a hurdle in terms of our religion, because we're kind of sandwiched right by the fundamentalists and by the liberals that get in the way of our reform, because it's okay for them to make fun of Jesus all the time, but then they'll back things that will support the most, you know, barbaric practices in Islam, you

0:10:54 Thomas: Right. If you're trying to reform Islam.

0:11:07 Thomas: Right. Yeah, there is no mainstream in America that I can think of. There's no mainstream poking fun at Muhammad or anything Islam. There's none.

0:11:16 Eiynah: Can't do it though, right I've seen what happens to people

0:11:19 Thomas: Right. Yeah. But people do that for Jesus all the time. You're totally right.

0:11:19 Eiynah: Right but I want, want us to get there, well

0:11:25 Thomas: I do too. But, but it's probably better for you to say that than me. Cause I've just looked at, it's, you know, yeah, I have to tell you how hard it is being a white male. You know, it's just so hard. People, the first thing they'll point out is like, oh, you white male, you can't criticize. Whatever.

0:11:35 Eiynah: I know I know, and, and I hate that because, uh no

0:11:43 Thomas: I'm glad I have, I'm Glad I have your sympathy. I feel like an awful person now, right?

0:11:48 Eiynah: I mean, this, okay, look, there's a lot of privileges that white men get, there's no denying that, but it doesn't mean that they're, you know, completely brainless, invalid voices, and and you might be, who knows, but I mean, you have a right to critique an idea as much as anyone else does, you know what I mean uh

0:11:53 Thomas: Yeah right yeah, I'm that for other reasons, no, I'm just kidding yeah I thank you, I tend to agree, um, all right, so let's see, where are we in your story, oh, so I want to ask you a question, were you an eighth, were you ever an atheist when you were living in Saudi Arabia, or was it after you moved, okay oh okay, interesting But did you have to kind of keep it but

0:12:26 Eiynah: No, after I moved, but I was definitely agnostic, yeah I mean I always said religion was stupid for most of my life I've said that well

0:12:37 Thomas: That's probably fine as long as you still identify as a Muslim, right? I'm guessing based on what I've oh

0:12:42 Eiynah: No I stopped identifying as one a long time ago right

0:12:44 Thomas: Okay okay So then there's going to be problems with that. I mean, apostates are not treated well

0:12:51 Eiynah: But obviously I kept, I learned to, you know, keep my views to myself most of the time. The only people that really, uh, knew how strongly I felt about this were really close friends and, you know, my parents and siblings. That's about it. The thing that's happened now in more recent years, which people seem to claim that I'm militant, is that I just feel that I have the same right to talk about my beliefs as other people do. So when they bring up their faith or, you know, I'll pray for you or whatever, then I'm, you know, I don't hold back and saying, well, you know, I'd rather you didn't pray for me because I don't think, you know, that really means anything to me and uh, I'm just, you know, like I don't believe in God, so I'll say that and they find that militant. There's

0:12:52 Thomas: Right sure yeah yeah Yeah, I mean there's a line, I think it's reasonable to say, you know, there's no reason to be, not that I'm saying this is what you're doing, but there, there is a line between picking your battles and like, I, like if someone says they'll pray for me in a nice way, like about something, you know, about something nice where they're trying to encourage or be nice, I, I'm, I'll be like, okay, thank you, but if it, if it is a, I'll pray for you, and like, you know you're an atheist

0:14:04 Eiynah: A passive aggressive that you know yeah for someone that doesn't know me or have any idea who who I am, I'm not going to bother getting into this whole thing, but when it's a relative who knows clearly what I feel about prayer and they still say I'll pray for you, then it just starts to, you know, add up. The first time

0:14:05 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah that's that's a different story I absolutely yeah it

0:14:23 Eiynah: Yeah yeah I mean I'm not someone that's going to go out searching for homeopaths and you know that they're stupid or but if it might

0:14:30 Thomas: Might not be a bad idea though maybe we could do that after this show

0:14:35 Eiynah: Not but other people with more time I mean the studies seem to be proving themselves so I

0:14:40 Thomas: Yeah yeah It's, I, I'm happy for studies, but it should be one of those things that you don't even need to study. Water doesn't cure AIDS or anything except thirst and maybe other things. Um, okay, so, and you had mentioned, I don't know if there's any other, um, parts of your, you know, story and and your narrative here that you want to get into, but you had mention you wrote a children's book that sparked some controversy. Well,

0:14:53 Eiynah: Know right right yeah yeah so last year, uh, I wrote, a, I wrote and illustrated a book called My Chacha Is Gay, which translates to My Uncle Is Gay, and uh, the really, uh, the thing that really got under people's skin is uh, that it was set in Pakistan. So it's basically about a little boy and his uncle and how this boy just doesn't understand why his uncle is, you know, mistreated by people or treated it differently because of who he loves. His uncle has a boyfriend and it's very, you know, it's very light, there's no, you know, uh, there's no delving into the issue. I've kept it light because it's for children. The message is that love belongs to everyone, that's what it ends on, and uh, the boy just understands that the way his mommy and daddy love each other Is the same way that his uncle and his boyfriend friends love each other, and that's basically it, but it's right zero

0:16:07 Thomas: That sounds really nice I mean that sounds like a very, a very good story. Now, how many bedroom scenes did you put in this children's book? No, I'm just, just kidding. Yeah, well

0:16:13 Eiynah: I mean but you would think otherwise you had heard some of the critique coming from parents, or uh, if you had listened to the radio show that was done in Canada about it, um, I

0:16:26 Thomas: Let me just clarify some maybe stupid questions, but so you, it's said in Pakistan but it's not like you did, you didn't try to release it in Pakistan or anything, did you? I mean, it's just you tried okay

0:16:35 Eiynah: Tried I tried to uh, you know, hook up with some bookstores and talk to some schools. Obviously got terrible responses, uh, but that's a long story. Yeah, I was going to try, but why wouldn't I, right? I think it needs to be addressed. Homophobia needs to be addressed in our context, too, in the South Asian context. This is not just a Western problem.

0:16:36 Thomas: Yeah wow yeah of course yeah uh Yeah, it gets probably more, I think we're doing okay here relatively is

0:17:03 Eiynah: Right. But, you know, it's much more easily digested by South Asians if homosexuality is seen like as a western thing. So if this was about a white uncle and his nephew Brian, then it would be a lot more palatable. But because it's set in Pakistan about a chacha and a kid with a brown name, that's what, when they couldn't take it, because you're misrepresenting our culture and and you're, you know, this just doesn't...

0:17:35 Thomas: That the is that really the the like the actual belief? I do, you remember there was that, I'm gonna sound ignorant, but there was somebody uh who who said that there was no homosexuals in their country, like there was some lead, was it him, oh okay I thought it was somebody else, but yeah, he said we don't have homosexuals here, it was pretty hilarious but also really horrifying. That is that really the the like, do people actually think that there, that's the yeah

0:17:46 Eiynah: Ahmadinejad? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, and they would like to think... Like, I mean, we're so non-confrontational about sex and sexuality that... So, say, in your country, if the religious conservatives find something distasteful, they'll at least discuss it and try to discredit it. Our people will not even discuss it. So it's not like I got some awful responses from religious clerics. Nobody was even willing to talk about it. A couple of papers managed to publish and review it, and they ended up having to change their policies to avoid such stories in the future. Yeah, right

0:18:16 Thomas: It's just so crazy, I, I, it's, it's the the weird thing to me that I didn't anticipate, participate, was you saying that it would have been, maybe not okay, but it would have been dealt with better if it was, you know, white people with a gay, that's so, it's so odd that there could be such a, I don't know what to call that, a cognitive dissonance or something, but there could be such an ignorance of just the percentage of people that tend to be gay. Like, it's just, it's so weird.

0:19:10 Eiynah: It is, I mean, it's because it's easier to, I mean, it just goes under the radar, then, then it's not our problem, right, it's oh, those immoral Westerners, look at what's happening to them. Yeah, that's what I'm saying the design is worse

0:19:15 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. But it's a step worse than saying homosexuality is a problem, because like, it it'd be one thing yeah yeah It's like, it'd be one, and I, I honestly, I'm just, my mind's kind of blown because I, I've just been thinking, trying to think from their perspective, like, it's so crazy, it's one thing to say, like, homosexuality is a problem and we need to figure it out, it's even further to say, oh, you guys over there in the west with your homosexuals, I can't believe you guys, so weird, oh man now

0:19:47 Eiynah: Right and you know, and and the funny thing is that we have a strange acceptance for it at the same time, uh, like we're built on these little paradoxes and hypocrisies, so about

0:20:02 Thomas: I want to, sorry I just want to clarify because you're saying we, and you, you're speaking, I just want to make, I love hax, okay, just making sure gotcha, gotcha, go ahead, yeah exactly I just wanted I

0:20:07 Eiynah: Pakistan yeah where the book is, that right so I mean yeah, it's my story is tough because I belong to so many cultures like I speak about Saudi Arabia, I can speak about Pakistan and Canada and you know still have like personal experience on all all three.

0:20:22 Thomas: Wouldn't want someone to listen to my podcast and then get the idea that like Canada, oh man, they're so backwards they think they don't even have any, they don't even think they have any homosexuals there, that's funny, okay sorry, I interrupted, go ahead, uh-oh you said, uh, what, what were you saying? We, yeah, that's

0:20:31 Eiynah: No, no, no. No. Now I forgot what I was saying. Oh, yes, yes. Okay, so there's this strange acceptance for men walking down the street holding hands or snuggling with each other in public. Because society is so segregated by gender, you will never see see a straight couple doing that. I did that once with my husband, trying to cross the street, and the woman, this woman, almost drove through us. Like, she almost drove over us, and she screamed something like, "Oh, you slut," or whatever, because I guess we looked young, so she didn't know we were married or whatever. And it shouldn't matter, but

0:20:46 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, but

0:21:23 Eiynah: She was like livid that we dared to hold hands in public. Yeah.

0:21:29 Thomas: You're saying there's sort of an acceptance of same-sex couples doing that in public?

0:21:34 Eiynah: And they're so, the public understanding is that, oh well, they're just being friendly, they're not gay, right? But I mean, if you see some of the people, uh, it's more than just a little friendly. Oh.

0:21:50 Thomas: That's so another weird thing to try to comprehend. It's almost like they have it better than straight couples in that one instance. Well,

0:21:58 Eiynah: They do, and in a lot of instances, actually. Like, so, you know, parent, like, kids live with parents for a long time in Pakistan. And so if you're having a relationship with the opposite sex, you're gonna come across more roadblocks. Parents do not allow dating usually, and or like sleepovers. But if you have the same sex relationship, you're not gonna have those issues.

0:22:22 Thomas: I think everyone should go gay over there since it's such a choice. I mean, just do it. Oh. Man, that's really fascinating.

0:22:28 Eiynah: Yeah. We are an interesting country.

0:22:35 Thomas: So. But you had said you, you even got death threats as a result of this book, right? Wow.

0:22:35 Eiynah: Yeah. Uh, so. It was read out in assemblies all over the Toronto area. Now, now we're in Canada, in schools, and it was read out on projectors, and you know, some classrooms even handed out coloring sheets, and it was generally very well received. And I was at one of the assemblies, and I saw it, like, some of the South Asian kids in the assembly, they actually got really excited because they never have references to their own culture in mainstream stream, uh, you know, I guess, books and TV shows or whatever. So they were just like, wow, you know, he's from Pakistan just like me.

And they use the word cha-cha, and you know, it's just nice to have a reference to your culture. Um, but so the parents got really, really mad that this book was read, and it was read on a specific day called the Day of Pink, which is a day that celebrates, uh, you know, people standing up against bullies, against anti-homophobia bullies, anti-transphobia. So the day is about this, and letters were sent home to parents, but I guess parents do not, um, read everything that comes home in the school bag. So, so they were taken off guard when, then, their kids came home and said they read this book, and then

0:22:43 Thomas: Okay. Sure. Yeah, yeah.

0:24:03 Thomas: Well, Now, this is, but this, this is Canada you're talking, so is this just conservatives, or okay. All right, I'm trying to, I'm try to keep track of which group is offended, for what reasons? Oh, well.

0:24:03 Eiynah: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Conservatives, um, immigrants, Immigrants, yeah, Pakistani immigrants, Muslim families, other conservatives. Generally, a lot of people upset, threatening to sue the school board, saying that it was explicit when the most explicit thing in there was the guy holding his boyfriend's hand.

0:24:37 Thomas: Heaven forbid. Yeah.

0:24:38 Eiynah: Yeah. So, yeah. So, I mean, it had this response in Canada, too. So, worldwide, it's created some buzz. Got the conversation started, at least.

0:24:52 Thomas: It Yeah, it's just such, it's so nothing like, it's, I mean, just the the controversy, right? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's so it's, uh, it's shocking how little it is that people are, can freak out about. It's almost nothing. Think how

0:25:00 Eiynah: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's kids' books about this in a Western context, and I don't think they've been as controversial.

0:25:16 Thomas: Odd. Wow. Okay, so, um, is there anything else you'd like to talk about, uh, as regards anonymity and your background or whatever, before we get to the niqab issue? Oh.

0:25:18 Eiynah: Yeah.

0:25:29 Eiynah: Yeah, so regarding this book, again, I was called an enemy of God, and someone said then that makes me automatically worthy of death, that I am, yep, yep. Yep. So, I mean, why am I, you know, why am I getting death threats for drawing something about love and tolerance for everyone? You know, if immigrants, and this is the really hypocritical thing, I'm an immigrant myself, and I think diversity and stuff should be included in schools to include immigrant children, children of, you known, non-mainstream families, LGBT families. I think Diversity includes all of it, but these other immigrants that are upset about this book, they only want selective diversity to be taught in schools. You're either for diversity or you're not.

0:25:36 Thomas: Religion. Religion. Of peace. Religion of peace. Yeah.

0:26:27 Eiynah: You want to basically teach kids about Muslim families and how to integrate with them and coexist with them, but do not teach about any other type of family. You know what I mean? It's not an official term, selective diversity. It's just what I'm using.

0:26:27 Thomas: What's what's selective diversity, exactly? Yeah.

0:26:40 Thomas: Right. No. I know. No, I was trying to point out, yeah, that's kind of an absurd idea. I mean, that almost, that is not really diversity. That is sort of, I don't know what a better, yeah, selective diversity. It is like racism. It is right.

0:26:45 Eiynah: Yeah.

0:26:59 Eiynah: So, so, like, how can you be all four schools talking about immigration and integration, and you know, having love for people different from us, but then exclude, you know, the LGBTQ side of things? Well.

0:27:14 Thomas: Man, enemy of God. And so that is interesting that they brought that into it. Because, so I assume that means they somehow knew you were an ex-Muslim? Or did they just, from that background?

0:27:27 Eiynah: I don't think they knew I was an ex-Muslim necessarily, but it's pretty obvious that, you know, I'm from Pakistan, writing this, and so I probably would be Muslim in their minds. And And so then, how dare I?

0:27:36 Thomas: Okay. I see. I got you. Yeah. Well, what's it like being an enemy of God? Must be.

0:27:52 Eiynah: That's an interesting question. I mean, I don't know how I can be the enemy of something I don't believe in. Guess I'm the enemy of Santa Claus, too. I know. Poor Santa.

0:27:56 Thomas: Yeah. Uh, why? He's so nice. He's just trying to give presents. Um, okay. Yeah, man. So you've got, you've Got a couple of things you probably are risking death threats for. I mean, Apostasy. In general.

0:28:15 Eiynah: Oh, many things, yeah.

0:28:17 Thomas: I'd be an enemy of god for this book. Anything else on your list?

0:28:20 Eiynah: Well, there was a letter to Ben Affleck I wrote about the whole...

0:28:25 Thomas: Oh, the, the, uh, Bill Maher thing. Oh, man, I I'm interested in this. Oh,

0:28:29 Eiynah: Yeah. So that I wrote for a Pakistani publication, which, um, then caused, I guess, this thing to go viral because this voice comes from, a Pakistani application and I was kind of like appealing to Ben and saying that, you know, you, you have good intentions. I understand you want to defend my people and and anti-Muslim bigotry does exist, and I experience it, my family experiences, but we need to recognize that bigotry for what it is, and throwing that Islamophobia label around on a discussion of ideas is not fair. Burning mosques and telling people to go home when this is home, that's bigotry.

0:29:13 Eiynah: But calling out an idea for misogyny, for homophobia, that is not. You have to be open to discussion, you do not get this, yeah.

0:29:12 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, that seems so vital That's such a vital point and it, I, I, I share that frustration, it's probably worse for you, but yeah. I mean, it's, it's, there is a difference, and, and, yeah, I think it's important to say now, and I think most people get it, but just in case, I mean, there is such a thing as anti-Muslim bigotry, as you just said. I mean, that, that, that is very important, because sometimes in the atheist community there is the mantra of, you know, there's no such thing as Islamophobia because that's like an irrational fear, whereas, you cannot, yeah, there could be, I think they're actually, you know, they're, could be such a thing as Islamophobia, you could be scared of, uh, any Muslim for the wrong, you know, just no reason, I mean, there, there is such a think

0:29:30 Eiynah: Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:06 Eiynah: And and That's what I try to address always when I'm criticizing Islam, I always throw in a paragraph to say that, you know, criticize ideas, not people, and it's so important to put those two facts together always, so that people get it, because people often cross the line, um, you know, even in the atheist scene sometimes I, I see people crossing the line, making fun of accents, making fun of, you know, oh, everybody's a cab driver or lives on benefits. These are not valid critiques of Islam. You know, calling someone a donkey fucker, it's not very, you know,

0:30:31 Thomas: Yeah, no, Yeah, it Yeah, and I will say maybe another category of a legitimately problematic criticism of Islam would be only fixating on Islam, I guess. Like, you might still be criticizing ideas, but if you're simply focused and fixating on Muslims and what they might have wrong with their religion and ignoring anyone else, I guess you could also argue that might be, I mean, you might still have valid arguments, but that could also be an unhealthy kind of focus on, yeah.

0:31:09 Eiynah: Yeah, I mean, I don't get, sure, in a lot of senses, yes, but I think, no, no. I understand.

0:31:17 Thomas: I'm talking about the wider atheism community. I'm not trying to say you are that at all. Gotcha.

0:31:22 Eiynah: I'm not saying personally. I mean, for me, it's personal because this is my culture. That's why I'm concentrating on it. But when people on the outside only talk about Islam, I do wonder what their motivation is to just stick to one religion. However, I will say that the problem that we see now is mostly with Islam, so, uh, you know, Christianity, I

0:31:37 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:31:50 Thomas: Depending on, Yeah. Depending on where you are, that definitely, that's the argument I make. Well, well,

0:31:53 Eiynah: Think everywhere actually, you know, Charlie Ebdo, uh, the Sydney hostage situation, um, the Canadian, the Ottawa shooting.

0:32:04 Thomas: I means, there, you, yeah, there's definitely big problems with Islam worldwide. I think that's true. And my argument is usually that I think Islam is just a little bit worse or a little bit behind the other major, two major religions.

0:32:04 Eiynah: Yeah, just a couple hundred years, that's

0:32:20 Thomas: Yeah, like it's not, yeah, but it does not to say that other religions are perfect. Of course. I mean, it's, there's plenty of Christians murdering people right now in parts of the world. I don't think it's... I'm not, I would be interested in the numbers, but there are problems everywhere. But Islam, I think another thing that sort of, it's this weird battle that kind of draws both sides in all the time because some people, I guess I was going to say liberals, I guess it's not always liberals, but it tends to be, will be criticizing anyone who criticizes

0:32:21 Eiynah: All no, I mean all religions are terrible, Yes.

0:32:54 Thomas: Islam. And then that makes, that like drives the cycle more to where you're like, no, you can't criticize anyone who criticized Islam.

0:32:55 Eiynah: Yes. Well, yes, and that's why I wrote to Ben, because, you know, I think I would hope that he read it. I mean, it got like a million hits, so I think, yeah.

0:33:08 Thomas: That's awesome. Awesome. Do you mind going through the basics of what you said to him?

0:33:13 Eiynah: So basically it was just, you know, I'm a woman that was born and raised in the culture and I want my community to join the 21st century. I know you have good intentions in defending my people, but, um, you know, do not assist in holding us back, which is what essentially ends up happening. I know it's well-meaning and well-intentioned, but we want the same enlightenment. We want to stop burning witches at the stake, too. You know what I'm saying?

0:33:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:42 Eiynah: Christianity had that happen for us because people were open to criticism. We draw a cartoon and we're dead, you know? A blogger talks about secularism and atheism in Bangladesh and he's hacked to death. This has to stop. And we can't be defending, uh, you know, this is not just some fringe that believes this, okay, fringe people carry this, these attacks out, and it's not, you know, most Muslims interpret Islam in a peaceful way, but that's because they're ignoring a lot of the violent passages, as do Christians ignore, like, the rape endorsing passages or whatever, but we need to point out that there are too many people that feel that, you know, apostasy does deserve punishment, too many people do believe that homosexuality should be punishable, adulterers should be stoned. These are, this is not okay, and it's a wider number than people think it is in the West, you know, it's like you guys have Westboro Baptist Church that we call, you know, crazies, and everybody's happy to call them that, but we are surrounded by Westboro Baptist Church. That's what it feels like.

0:33:42 Thomas: Yeah. Sure.

0:34:56 Thomas: Really? Wow. That sounds bad. That would not be a good place to be, I don't think.

0:34:56 Eiynah: Yeah. Right, and then you see, like, all these well-meaning liberals defending that who don't know enough, you know? No.

0:35:07 Thomas: And the other thing, I do not know what this means, but as bad as Westboro is, they are not violent. They are not...

0:35:15 Eiynah: Exactly, so this is worse.

0:35:19 Thomas: It may be. I do know. It might have to do with the particulars of their theology, because their, their whole view, I believe, is that, you know, God's gonna sort this out, like he's gonna just kill everybody pretty soon and then they'll be fine. So it may just have to do with the particulars, I guess. Oh, man.

0:35:30 Eiynah: Well, I mean if we could only get there that would be a big step up, if

0:35:45 Thomas: Yeah, that's a brilliant it's a brilliant point. I, I told, yeah, and for any religion, I've always wondered, that's one thing, that's another one of those kid questions you have, is like, why, why does everyone care about anything. Like, honestly, that was always my thing. I mean, sorry to jump topics, but you just, that was a great thing you said. It made me think about stuff. It's like, why, as a kid, I always thought if there's a God in charge of everything, like, why do you care about anything? He's in charge. Like it doesn't, doesn't matter. So there's, I mean, sure, you want to stop someone from hurting you, but beyond that, it's like, why do you, why do care if someone's a different religion? Why do care someone's an atheist?

0:35:46 Eiynah: You could just leave all the sorting out to God if everyone could just leave it up, yeah. Yeah,

0:36:24 Thomas: They're just, I'm mean, God will sort it out. It's, it's a good point, let's all get to that, at least, maybe it's, that would be a nice bridge.

0:36:31 Eiynah: And So that's why I focused on drawing, uh, you know, and illustrating kids' books based, set in my culture, because I want that bridge. I want us to get to this century, whether I'm dragging us kicking and screaming, you know, I'm, I'm not that, I guess, impactful in the Muslim community. Nobody listens to me. But I do try.

0:36:41 Thomas: Hmm.

0:36:56 Thomas: I, well, you're doing good work and I hope that more people will listen to you, but uh, it's good sign that your letter was so popular. Yeah.

0:37:01 Eiynah: Yeah, I hope. Yeah, it got picked up by some Hollywood people and they tweeted about it. It actually crashed the Pakistani publication website because too many people were trying to access it. Because Bill Maher shared it, Michael Moore shared it. But on the other side of this, uh, other right-wing publications, you know, kind of just, uh, took it over and used it for their means, like, I've watched, shared it. Tea Party News Network shared it, which, you know, is so distasteful. I'm like, that is not, you know, I'm not coming from that perspective at all.

And I had a paragraph about my kids' book about homosexuality that got me death threats and how that shouldn't be in this culture and this is really what you're defending, Ben Affleck, uh, but, and, and I had to put that in there just to kind of protect it from being hijacked by these, uh, right-wing, uh, Christian anti-Muslim organizations.

But you know, they were happy to have a critique of Islam coming from an authentic voice, so to speak, that they just kind of, uh, overlooked the fact that they don't agree, agree with homosexuality either, and just reprinted the letter. Oh,

0:37:22 Thomas: That's some serious stuff right.

0:37:34 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:25 Thomas: Geez, that must be rough. I mean, it's, does, is there often, I mean, I know massive viral things like this letter probably don't come up that often, but hopefully they do because it seems like it's a good thing. But anyway, my question right now is, does it often feel like different groups are trying to claim your identity for their purposes and sort of bend? It must be really frustrating.

0:38:48 Eiynah: Yeah, it is, and, uh, yeah, that's why I always put in a paragraph or two to try to shield myself from that, that I'm like, listen, I'm Muslim, I care about Muslims, well, I'm not Muslim, but I'm from the Muslim community and my family's Muslim, and, you know, I hate when people, you know, spout anti-Muslim bigotry and tell us to go home, and that's not where I'm coming from, but I just want us to sit at the adult table as well, be able to take critique. Yeah.

0:39:16 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it must be a lot. It's so interesting because it is part of what we talked about before, where I think the easiest charge that people can levy nowadays is, oh, you're just, you know, such and such group trying to speak for another group. So it's almost like these groups have to, you know, like when you talk about the Tea Party, or even when you talked about maybe a the liberal side of it, they have to find the authentic voices and then be like, oh, see, this person agrees, and they're, they're that background, so it's, so it's such a weird thing, you know, it's, but it's kind of the reality of, because the charge is so easy, if you just say, as, or if I just say, as a, as a white male, if I just say what I think, and again, I'm not, I'm not trying to complain or, you know, elicit sympathy or anything, I'm just, it's an interesting situation. If I say something, it's the easiest thing in the world to say, oh, you're white, doesn't matter, you're like, you just, you don't count, there's Muslim, you know, that's, and that

0:39:45 Eiynah: Yeah, it really is yeah yeah yeah

0:40:16 Thomas: Is sort of what, what Ben Affleck was, was doing, don't you think, I mean, that he was saying that to Sam Harris essentially, I think he said it's gross, it's racist, yeah.

0:40:21 Eiynah: Exactly and he said it's racist, or you know, I forget the exact words he used but yeah Gross and racist, exactly, you can't throw around the word racist like that, I mean, you're really diluting its meaning, it has some significant meaning to it, you cannot throw that around, and I would say the same when feminists, I'm a feminist myself as well, but people jumping to call everyone misogynist, I do not want that diluted to

0:40:52 Thomas: Yeah, it, it, those words, especially racism, and I think misogyny is probably an up-and-comer now, but racism, for the past, I don't know, 20 years, calling someone a racist has been the easiest thing you can do and the hardest thing to, yeah, the hardest thing to brush off, you know, once, because you instantly have to start backpedaling. Not that I go through this. I don't, I don't, I don't think I say racist things. I hope not. But, but I've observed it. I mean, it's, it's, people can just launch it and it ends a conversation. It totally derails any sort of conversation that was happening.

0:41:05 Eiynah: Shut down a conversation, yeah,

0:41:31 Thomas: It's, yeah, it's, it's unfortunate.

0:41:31 Eiynah: Well, And I had hoped that my writing this would kind of stop that, but you know what happened is I got called a racist. Racist.

0:41:43 Thomas: Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but yeah, you're kind of a racist. No, I'm just kidding. That's that.

0:41:46 Eiynah: Yeah. They were like, you're a textbook racist, a race betrayer. And I'm like, this is bizarre. So, I mean, that's really how far they go. They can't, I don't know. I don't even know what to say.

0:41:54 Thomas: Is bizarre. I Yeah, I don't know. I I know exactly what you mean, and I'm constantly, you know, my my thing on my show is I really do want to try to look at every side of everything, and I do think that there are shades of gray, and there there are certain things that Yeah, God, why did, why did that book have to come out now?

0:42:23 Thomas: I can't, it just I Yeah, no, that's fine. But I'm totally cool with it. Yeah, I just, it seems so bad. I couldn't, couldn't imagine. Anyway, yeah, there's, I think in any of these arguments, there is going to be people on certain degrees where it's like, yeah. Okay, I can see what you're saying there. Like maybe, sure, maybe that might be racist, but you're kind of shutting down an entire side of it. You know, it's hard to find. I always want to try to find the middle ground or find the places where I can learn from the people I disagree with. But it's really hard because in this instance, it really feels like liberals shut down conversations so badly in this one instance. And it's it's really frustrating. And I wish it weren't that way.

0:42:19 Eiynah: 50 of them? I know, I haven't read it. I refuse to, but I just, I, I dunno, I had had to make that joke.

0:43:28 Thomas: All right, that does it for the first part of the interview with Eiynah Nice Mangos. Thanks so much to Eiynah for that first bit and for the whole thing. And next episode, which you can listen to pretty much right away if you are a patron on patreon.com/atheist, or you can wait till Thursday if you want to be a lame-o. Next episode we talk about the specific issue in Canada with the the uh niqab, and that's very interesting, and it's an interesting debate, and I'm not totally a hundred percent sure on it, um, but I think I am, I don't know, it's hard, it's it's interesting questions, so you'll have to stay tuned, uh, or rather tune in on Thursday for that, so I will see you then. Thank you guys for listening, as always, and I bid you good day.