SIO334: 'Under the Banner of Heaven' with the Glass Box Podcast, Part 2!

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:11 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 334. I'm Thomas, and I'm just giving you the intro to part two. Sitting here by myself, introing by myself. So just a little refresher, if it's been a minute since you listened to part one, we were talking about Mormonism, we're talking about Under the Banner of Heaven, and at the moment the conversation was around the relationship conflict between the two main characters and the crisis of faith, kind of getting in between them.

But then that, to give a little preview, leads into a discussion of more history, and it's tons of fun. Why don't I just stop talking and let's get to it. You know, I, what I liked about the show is, um, I don't know if anybody ever watched the show Rectify, I think it was called, but, uh, the wife was in that show, uh, she's very good, but I, I like that it was sad and it was unpleasant, but I thought it was realistic.

The idea that she was, you know, he's going through this crisis of faith and she's just like, and again, sorry for the spoilers, but, you know, we gave you this, the warnings. She's just like, "Hey man, nah, sorry. No, no, go on the crisis of faith. Like I'm not going to be like there for you on that." Like I, I'm interested in my daughters and this whole religious thing. So, like, how about you get your of shit figured out and don't involve me. And I thought it was sad, but struck me as realistic. What do you guys think?

0:01:32 Shannon: Yes.

0:01:33 Bryce: Much so well and It's that's actually that dynamic, that power dynamic, especially among spouses, is very much detailed in Under the Banner of Heaven. Because Because we see as Jeb is being, or Pyrie, you know, Andrew Garfield is being exposed to all of these underbelly, darker elements of church history and about fundamentalism. And that these people are actually more accurately following the doctrine of the gospel than the corporate LDS church that he's following does. He starts to go through this faith crisis and there's this one really powerful scene where he gets a copy of Mormonism, Shadow, or Reality. Reality uh real book uh yeah yeah real book it's put out by utah lighthouse ministries a christian radical christian anti -mormon group in utah uh that are that but are honestly responsible for a lot of no

0:01:33 Shannon: Mm -hmm.

0:01:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:02:11 Thomas: I had questions about this. Oh, really? Okay.

0:02:23 Thomas: Of course. Of course. It's not like some atheist humanists that are like, let's help these people. It'S some other religious assholes that are let's try to win some of these people to our dumb team.

0:02:28 Bryce: No no of course not yep yep yep I mean I have a copy Of the, I have a bunch of their books in my bookcase, right? The thing is, is they, it's Gerald and Sandra Tanner. They were a powerhouse couple doing a lot, lot of really good research in Mormon studies, uh, when, uh, research, uh, was largely closed off to people who are outsiders of the church and they because they were insiders who had a faith crisis when they learned These things they published it all, and then the church sued them, and they sued the church back, and it's it's they the church in the Utah Lighthouse Ministries have a very uh very strained relationship, but yeah, so Jeb has this book, uh, he acquires it from Alan, Alan Lafferty's, you know, evidence box, and he goes out and sneaks out into the garage and sits in the car and starts reading this, and we see him just collapse, right? And that's really the moment where his shelf breaks, where he has the full faith

0:02:34 Thomas: Gotcha.

0:02:47 Thomas: Right. That is interesting.

0:03:20 Bryce: Crisis.

0:03:20 Thomas: Do you mind if we, because I can't believe it took this long, but I definitely wanted to, you the Bryce breakdown on some of this history. Do you mind If we reset now to kind of get to that point? So let's, that as sort of the X -Files -esque, you know, ending that you already see, and then you piece together what happened before that of this crisis of faith in this book. Bryce, and both of you, I suppose, I associate Bryce with the history because I've gotten in so many history lectures yeah but

0:03:20 Lindsey: I'm

0:03:45 Shannon: I do too. Oh, I did too. Yeah.

0:03:47 Bryce: I'm Okay with that

0:03:50 Thomas: Uh us about this history, because, there anybody who hasn't watched this, I, I think this might surprise people, there are fucking reenactments in this show, this is like a true crime drama and then you get these reenacments with like the prophet and stuff, and it's, I still don't know how I feel about it, because it's like, it is, it's kind of weird, historical, just make everything seem stupid, like I don't know, is it just me they just always seem dumb like you

0:04:13 Bryce: They have to be done really well to not be stupid yeah I

0:04:17 Thomas: Well it has to be A very very well done full production thing, and it's weird to see it as just a occasional part of this television show, um, so tell us about what of the history there was, Bryce, and like what, what are happening, you know, and And what concepts are being kind thrown back and forth there? Because as a non -Mormon, I was lost. I'll be honest.

0:04:39 Bryce: Understand it I think it helps a lot to read the book because the book does this and being that the series is made

0:04:43 Shannon: Yeah.

0:04:46 Thomas: Well, I got you, so I don't have to read.

0:04:47 Bryce: Right If I had a nickel, uh, so the these these are important things within the context of this, the overall thesis of the book and the show, is radicalism, religious radicalism, and the the byline that is said so much in it now is Mormonism breeds dangerous men, men. Right, but we can, I think we should probably discuss that, you know, overall as the takeaway and, you know, maybe kind of wrapping up. But it, it, the book itself draws parallels between events going on in early church history and violence expressed at the hands of the Mormons at the command of the prophet Joseph Smith, or at the prophet Brigham Young, and draws the parallels to what's going on with the Laffertys. And it's very important, important, because so many fundamentalists, when they convert to fundamentalism from the corporate LDS church, it's because they feel like the corporate church has concealed the history. It has concealed the doctrine. The current church is in apostasy.

Therefore, they need to go to fundamentalists in order to get the real doctrine, to get to the real theology of the church, because the fundamentalists believe in the true gospel. And many, uh, different, different fundamentalist groups, uh, attribute, uh, different events in church history to the point that the church, you know, split off and turned to apostasy. Many of them say it was with the death of Brigham Young, uh, others say it was with, uh, the death over For Woodruff and these other big prophets.

Some say it, it was when they released the first and second manifesto outlawing polygamy. Um, there are certain events that catalyze that these different fundamentalist groups point to and say that's when the church went into apostasy. And as we see, like, Dan is very interested in the church, the history of the church and the fundamentals, he goes down with one of his brothers, Dan Lafferty, and I can't remember, it's, one it's the Colkin character, he the

0:05:13 Thomas: Right. Oh,

0:05:27 Lindsey: Sam

0:06:50 Bryce: Um

0:06:50 Thomas: Yeah. That's so funny. Because the minute I saw him, I Was like, that's not Kieran Culkin, is it? That's not. And Lydia's like, no, that'S not Kieren Culkin. And then I was like, okay, I'm crazy. And then it looked up like, it is Al Culkin though. It's Rory Culkin, one I didn't know existed.

0:06:50 Bryce: Yeah

0:06:51 Lindsey: Yeah, Yeah,

0:07:01 Bryce: It's a colkin now they all colkins look the same

0:07:01 Shannon: Yes, it's Rory.

0:07:05 Thomas: Yeah, there's another Culkin. Well, I feel like they start, it's like you're cloning the same one over and over and they start to deteriorate over time. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

0:07:12 Bryce: It's multiplicity one's just eating Pizza by the end of it. Yeah, uh, we see Dan is going in, he goes to the fundamentalist groups to learn about church history, because the corporate church had tightly, so tightly wrapped up its own history and concealed it and suppressed it and hid it away in these archives and had accosted and blacklisted historians and scholars who were trying to bring these things to light. So, people who want to learn about this history, they have to go outside of it. And that causes Dan to go on this journey of discovery of what are the true fundamentals of his church, which then pushes him towards radicalism, but that's because the church is a very radical history the church itself joseph smith was a revolutionary like his end game was to overthrow the government of the United States, he had his own constitution, he had as a government Brigham Young taking the Mormons out to, you know, what was Mexico at the time, that wasn't a coincidence, that's because the federal government had no jurisdiction, it was fucking Mexico, right? Have always been a an insular and a radical sect.

So, when these people want to learn about the history of the church, it's no mystery why they get pushed towards radicalism the way that Dan and Ron were. So the book itself draws stark parallels between what went on in the early church history and what the Laffertys were doing, trying to emulate that early history, because at its core, Mormonism is a violent religion, religion, uh, it's just a matter of, like, how many people that are Mormons are radical and violent people, it's a very, very small percentage, but it doesn't take a large percentage to do a lot of damage.

0:07:50 Thomas: Yeah, right, right.

0:07:55 Lindsey: Yeah, Right,

0:08:52 Thomas: Well, this is a problem with virtually every religion though. And it's a pattern that comes up in every religion where, because know, I talked talked about this a lot back in the day when was more atheism focused. I always was conflicted whenever you see kind of liberal Christians make an argument that actually the Bible or Jesus was super cool with gay people or something like that, where you're like, well, I like what you're doing, but I doubt it. Why would you believe that these people from 2000 years ago, 3000 years ago? If you're which Testament you're looking at and more like, why would you think they would be particularly liberal. Like they're awful. They're genociding each other. And I think every religion pretty much has this pattern of, as it has to adapt to the modern world and the mores of the modern world, it, because these things, religions are usually based off of a prophet from back in the day who wrote down shit that you're supposed to listen to.

Of There's like, all right, how do we come up with a soft landing on some of this shit? Like, oh, it turns Turns out you can do the old radio broadcast from God thing. All right, hold on. Getting an update. This just in. Now God says that.

0:08:52 Bryce: True yeah there you go

0:10:00 Thomas: And like there's that. Yeah. Yeah. You can do that. There's also, you know, like different interpretations. And it sounds like the process you're describing, which and maybe, you know, just due to the, like, like you say, the fundamentals of each of these religions, it could make it easier or harder. But I bet you there's a certain percentage of people. And if I were religious, I might be this kind of person where you're like, hey, I see this newfangled thing you're trying to do that isn't supported by the original text. And then that drives you toward people who are like keeping on with the original, you know, still following these original tests, fundamentalists. And like those people do a lot of crazy, weird shit, because as you say, the fundamentals are weird and crazy because they're from years ago in Christianity's case, or, you know, a couple of centuries ago in Mormon's case. Is that kind of the basic dynamic you're talking about, and do you think it's better or worse, or could you make a comparison with other religions? I

0:10:01 Shannon: Right. Yeah.

0:10:02 Bryce: I have see moderates existing in religions to be symptoms of the adaptability of religions, and they can at the same, they can in one breath be representations of a more humanistic version of a religion, which is oftentimes less orthodox, less fundamental. Um, their presence also gives license to radicals. Uh, corporate Mormonism gives Mormons the same exact tools as fundamentalist Mormons.

0:11:30 Bryce: Give their right? Operate from the same scriptures, largely. Some of them have extra texts, extra scriptures, extra revelations from their du jour prophet, but they largely are working with the same tool set. It's just a matter of some person like Ron and Dan Lafferty coming along, and all of these external factors causing them to have leanings or proclivities towards fundamentalism or towards violence, more like, towards misogyny, towards blaming women. And then they have the tools given to them by the religion and culture in order to justify their behavior. And the behavior for most Mormons is they make a passing, misogynistic remark at work, and nobody bats an eye. But for a very small, small percentage, that manifests in ways of, this person is a sinner, I better spill their blood.

0:11:29 Thomas: Mean

0:12:22 Shannon: Ultimately what you've got here is men that are told their priesthood comes from God, the power comes from God. As long as God is speaking to them, they should follow whatever whatever they are told. And you also have a book of scripture where in the first 10 chapters, you've got the lead character, Nephi, being told by God, you know, see that guy that's laying there drunk in, passed out in the gutter, you need to cut his head off so you can go steal from him. That's their justification.

0:12:52 Thomas: He's passed out already like couldn't you just take his stuff with

0:12:53 Shannon: I know that always bugged me from day one.

0:12:55 Bryce: Yeah, yep, you could.

0:12:56 Shannon: The first time I read it, I was like, I've seen my brother passed out drunk. You couldn't wake him up shooting fireworks next next to his face.

0:12:54 Thomas: Yeah yeah it sounds like you just wanted to kill a guy and you came up with a reason later yeah

0:13:05 Shannon: Yeah, it's just an excuse. So

0:13:07 Bryce: And that's the first story that anybody takes away from reading the Book of Mormon, is that story. And the hero is the guy who kills the guy he was drunk in order to steal from him.

0:13:08 Shannon: Yeah, yeah, right.

0:13:08 Thomas: Really wow is that like the origin of the not drinking stuff and coffee and all that or? Okay. So there's plenty, plenty more where that came from.

0:13:23 Shannon: Oh, no. Because Joseph Smith loved drinking, didn't he? And his father was just an alcoholic.

0:13:28 Thomas: Oh yeah.

0:13:29 Bryce: Oh yeah oh yeah him and him and all of his buddies loved it and they were many of them were pretty heavy drinkers

0:13:34 Thomas: Well, related

0:13:32 Shannon: Yeah. It was just him striking Wiking out at Emma.

0:13:35 Bryce: Correct

0:13:37 Thomas: Related this Lydia, my, my wife had a question watching this. I think I kind of know the answer from, from a lot of Bryce's lectures, but just to refresh us, how did they do the soft landing from the, uh, the, the poly marriage stuff? Cause like, wasn't that mainstream for a a while. And think it was like more Brigham Young, right? Like after he took over, how did they do the like, well, no longer needed, you know, kind of thing. And how did they make that stick and still make sense within their religion?

0:13:37 Shannon: Yeah. Yes. Oh, no.

0:13:57 Bryce: Yeah Uh, right, quick and dirty, uh, the polygamy when it was Joseph's church, they were in America, where polygamy was outlawed. Uh, any forms of sexual deviancy outside of cis hetero marriage was, you know, seen as, as horrible. Uh, they they practiced polygamy inside just, like, very insular groups in Joseph Smith's church. Joseph gets assassinated during his presidential campaign, and that's when Brigham Young takes the majority of the Mormons out to Mexico, and they declare, just, you know, like five years later, hey, we're doing the polygamy thing. Like, boom, we're doing it, full, unabashed, we don't give a fuck what anybody says.

0:14:40 Thomas: Which side note, I've read the Bible. Polygamy is super biblical. Like that's like story one.

0:14:46 Bryce: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

0:14:46 Shannon: Yeah. That's where they get it from.

0:14:48 Thomas: Yeah. So it's kind of weird that America at that time was like, ah, absolutely not. You know, isn't that in their Christian Bible? Kind of weird.

0:14:48 Bryce: Yeah.

0:14:48 Shannon: Yeah. Yeah. Of course, you know, it's not supposed to be based on Christianity here, you know. Yeah.

0:14:57 Bryce: Uh, well, fair. Fair. Well, and that's interesting, too, because the Bible is super, you like, God specifically isn't pro -polygamy, but, like many of the prophets were very much polygamous. The Book of Mormon itself is, right,

0:15:11 Thomas: Well he is in the abraham and all that like he tell he tells him to yeah

0:15:15 Shannon: Solomon.

0:15:15 Bryce: Right. Yeah. So, the Book of Mormon, though, is a strictly monogamous book.

0:15:16 Shannon: Solomon, David, all of them. Yeah.

0:15:21 Bryce: It absolutely decries polygamy. But Joseph Smith comes along, and we see this depicted in the the show Joseph Smith comes along and he has DNC was known as DNC 132 and I know for for a lot of people DNC is a very very different term but for Mormons it's Doctrine and Covenants Yeah.

0:15:16 Thomas: Yeah boring no I'm just kidding yeah

0:15:37 Shannon: Yeah. Yeah.

0:15:36 Thomas: I like The numbering, though, like, it's Orders. What's the one where the Jedi kill the young Jedi? It's like that, what no, no, Star Wars nerd, you know, remember some order and all the Jedis are killed or something, anyway, so it's like that.

0:15:50 Bryce: Yeah. Uh similar yeah but in this case people aren't killed people are just you know just just sealed as plural marriages. So yeah, so they practice this openly in Utah, and we see depicted Joseph Smith receiving DNC 132 and Emma, you know, his wife confronting him over it, and she burns the revelation.

0:15:56 Thomas: Married. Yeah.

0:16:10 Bryce: Fairly accurate scene, according to what we have documentation of anyway.

0:16:10 Thomas: Oh, wow. Huh. So then did burns it. Did it. On.

0:16:17 Shannon: Burns it because he's like, you're going to be destroyed if you don't would agree to this. And she's like, hello, no. Yeah. And she's just pissed. Yeah, yeah.

0:16:25 Bryce: When he dictated it, he had a scribe make two copies of it. So we have a secondary copy.

0:16:31 Shannon: And his brother Hiram gave it to Emma. Yeah such

0:16:34 Bryce: Yeah

0:16:34 Thomas: Oh I love that. Oh that's so funny. He's like I imagine this this might not go over well. Why don't you write a second copy just in case.

0:16:37 Shannon: A piece of shit. Yeah yeah yeah

0:16:35 Bryce: Yep yeah absolutely yeah well and it's interesting too because the Revelation, uh, the way that it's written, it's very clearly done in two parts. So you read through the Revelation, you get up to like verse 59 or something in the modern Dnc, and it's pretty much well wrapped up, and it even hearkens to the biblical prophets, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph, uh, who were polygamous prophets, that these are the promises of the Lord, and that they had the powers of stealing, uh, and this is, you know, all the foundations that Joseph Smith used for polygamy.

But depicted in the show, Emma is confronting Joseph Smith, and then his eyes roll back in his head. And then he says, I command my handmaid Emma to cleave unto none but my servant Joseph. You know, after she says, well, I'm just going to go take some spiritual husbands, right? When you read the Revelation, it is very clearly modern day, D &C 132. You can go to this and look at it on the church's website.

It's very clearly broken up into two sections, and the first section is the revelation about polygamy, establishing the theology of it, and then there's like an appendix to it that is just chastising Emma.

0:16:45 Shannon: Yeah

0:17:45 Bryce: And calling her out

0:17:48 Shannon: And by the way, DNC in the church stands for Doctrine and Covenants. It's one of the books of scripture that are purely Mormon. So but yeah, they did practice it here in Utah for for quite a while, but to become a state, they had to stop. And that's what made it stop. So that's how they were able to do it. But see, one of the things to take note of, this is how they justify it. They say, we're not going to practice it here on earth, but we will in heaven.

0:17:54 Bryce: Yeah yeah

0:18:02 Thomas: Yeah that's the thing. Well but how they justify that religiously though. But if you get out in the International Space Station, baby. Oh, no.

0:18:19 Shannon: And here's the the other thing. In essence, the church still does practice it as a whole because a man can be sealed to more than one wife here. You can get a divorce. You could be married, get a divorce, but not have your ceiling broken. The ceiling is what happens in the temple where where you're sealed together for the eternities and all that shit. Yeah, and marriage and sealings are really two different things. But the man can be sealed to another wife without breaking the sealing with the first one. A woman cannot be sealed for more than one man while she's alive. They've died, if a woman's been married to more than 1 guy, they now at this point just seal them all together if they're doing work for the dead. And then they're like, yeah, they'll figure it all out in the next life. You know but that's that's the thing is is

0:18:22 Bryce: The spaceship navoo yeah

0:18:22 Thomas: A lot of Mormon astronauts applications after that. Yeah.

0:18:31 Bryce: Yep

0:19:18 Shannon: That's how the church yeah that's how the Church justifies it, is they're like, we're still practicing it but not fully, you can't be sealed to another guy without having that ceiling broken and

0:19:18 Thomas: They can arm wrestle for it. What happens if you're a Mormon woman and your husband dies? Are you saying you can't remarry? So you you could could remarry, but you got to choose like in the afterlife, like who you want to spend real all of life afterlife with.

0:19:43 Shannon: Here is the other thing is if your husband dies and you want your ceiling to him broken they won't do it yeah so you can be sealed to somebody else they won because they're like, well, we can't do this without knowing what the priesthood holder says, you

0:19:44 Bryce: That's

0:19:50 Thomas: Wow. Huh. So you get together with another dude and you're like, this is very casual. I'm only into this for the rest of my life. Not the afterlife. Yeah. Like you gotta know this isn't just a casual, all of the rest OF my normal life marriage.

0:20:00 Shannon: Yeah. Right. So you just marry them civilly. Right, right. Yeah,

0:20:13 Thomas: Yeah, well

0:20:07 Bryce: Right yep absolutely

0:20:14 Shannon: See, that's, that's how the church still practices it. It's kind of funny, my mom was a convert. And that was actually one of her bugaboos was polygamy before joining. And she was like, Well, they were all told or known, they don't practice polygmy. At one point, I was like mom, they They kind of still do. I told her this and she just looked at me. She was appalled and let dad know, you know, and so my mom died about seven, eight years ago. And people have asked me, they're like, do you think your dad will get remarried? I'm like, nope,

0:20:32 Thomas: Well

0:20:33 Bryce: I mean well

0:20:45 Shannon: Not after what mom said about it.

0:20:50 Bryce: And this is a common, like, you know, accusation that ex -mormons law, but that, uh, the current presidency, right? So, so the current prophet, Russell M. Nelson, he's 97 years old and he's been married twice. He's a polygamist, right? Within the Mormon theology, many of the men in the highest ranking who are widows or widowers, sorry, they are practicing polygamy because they have been sealed to multiple people. And importantly, too, when the church, when The Presidency at the time, Wilford Woodruff, delivered what was known as the Manifesto, and then the prophet after him came and gave the second manifesto.

The first manifesto just said, hey, don't practice any marriages that are against the laws of the land. And then the second manifesto came along and was like, super duper, we are totally not doing polygamy. But it didn't say anything about revoking the revelation. It wasn't a new revelation to overcome old revelations. No, it's just basically like a letter of advice. So polygmy has never been outlawed in the corporate church. It is punished by the corporate if it's known about and if you know people talk about it you can be publicly excommunicated but the modern church still very much behind closed doors practices polygamy

0:20:58 Shannon: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, right, no, right? Right. Yeah.

0:22:04 Thomas: The imaginary kind or the real kind okay

0:22:04 Shannon: I, the real kind at times.

0:22:07 Bryce: I technically the imaginary one but in some some regards the real kind too

0:22:09 Shannon: Right.

0:22:09 Thomas: Because like that's all right I get the point about the ceiling and the whatever but the you know that's imaginary uh you know thought crime I don't really care about that but good but

0:22:12 Bryce: Yeah I

0:22:16 Shannon: Yeah. Cause I, I think wasn't he or Jay Grant the last one to actually have two living wives and he was during world war two.

0:22:24 Bryce: Think so I I can't I'm my my fuzzy my

0:22:29 Shannon: I think, I think he was the last time. The last one. Yeah, well, yeah, but there's also, there's polygamous in wards all over the fucking place here. You just

0:22:29 Bryce: History is a little fuzzy around there

0:22:31 Thomas: Like there are still fundamentalist sects all over utah that do this right oh

0:22:41 Bryce: Exactly right so there are people attending corporate church you just don't talk about it

0:22:47 Thomas: Really

0:22:44 Shannon: Yeah yeah it's just very they don't talk about it and so it, it happened, there's probably some in every ward in Utah, for sure, because you get them there, you know, you'll have a single mom who lives next door to these other ones, you know, it's like, the did you ever watch the show Big Love?

0:22:48 Thomas: No I didn't, but that's kind of what I was thinking about out

0:23:04 Shannon: Okay that's that was depicting polygamy in modern day utah and I was like that's much very accurate it um yeah so yeah that one no

0:23:05 Thomas: Yeah Bill Paxton I wonder if it was actually oh man I missed that guy I should go watch it but no also Lydia I think because we watched this was watching there's a new Netflix thing about like Warren Jeffs and that and Uh, that I mean, I guess that was like in the 90s, 2000s, maybe. But I assume, like, it's not like problem solved, every all of that is gone, right? Yeah.

0:23:18 Shannon: No yeah yeah right Yeah.

0:23:26 Bryce: Yeah No.

0:23:36 Bryce: Well uh yeah uh Jeffs was arrested in 06 I believe it was uh that's When he was on FBI's Most Wanted and stuff, um, the that community is is interesting. I've spent a bit of time down in that community, and it's there, uh, the power vacuum left by Warren Jeffs is quite fascinating. Uh, many of his his his most devoted followers have left the Short Creek, and they are who the fuck knows where, living in communes in South Dakota or Colorado or Texas, or seriously, who the fuck knows, because they Are off the grid, but the power vacuum left behind has caused all sorts of dudes to come out of the woodwork and say, "I'm the one mighty and strong."

And luckily From my understanding and talking to people who are very much, you know, a part of the community community, the community is largely done with these dudes saying that they know what's best for the community, because so many of them lived through Ron and Warren Jeffs. But there's still plenty of people who are looking for a priesthood leader who fits the bill of someone like a Ron or a Dan Lafferty, who are the fundamentalists who believe that they hear the voice of God and believe that they can receive revelations on behalf of their following. It's a very it's a very precarious and kind of a dangerous situation, and it's not just in Short Creek, Utah, it's in these these polygamist communes all over. Yeah.

0:23:41 Thomas: Hmm

0:23:41 Shannon: Yep Yeah.

0:24:09 Thomas: Well Uh, was that part of that history? But that's but a small portion of the reenactments in the show. There's some massacres, right? I mean, there's a lot of stuff to contend with.

0:25:11 Shannon: Yeah you I I'm glad they depicted the Haun's Mill massacre as well as Mountain Meadows which was in retaliation Haun's Mill they were executing Mormons Mountain Meadows they were were the Mormons were executing others. And there's so many things that underlying parts of that that are good. But I think also that's pointing more towards Mormons who need to recognize more of their history. And so that yeah, there's a lot of things in this that I think speak more to Mormons than it does to outsiders that know very little to nothing. Yeah.

0:25:17 Bryce: I

0:25:47 Thomas: Yeah. Well, that's kind of maybe how I would phrase the question to both of you is, again, as a non -Mormon, I'm seeing some reenacments. I don't know what the heck this means. I get the impression that some of it is upsetting to Spider-Man. And if OK, it's the Spider-Man character who's this like, you Garfield is this like naive, good Mormon who seems to be coming across this stuff for the first time.

0:25:56 Shannon: Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.

0:26:13 Thomas: What is it? I maybe to try not to go through all the history, but what are the key elements there that are like shocking to him or that's like rocking his faith that he hadn't seen before? What do you think?

0:26:26 Shannon: I think that a lot of it is finding out what the true history is, because Mormons are given a very whitewashed history about Joseph Smith, especially. You I was raised believing that, more, that Joseph Smith got tarred and feathered for teaching the gospel, not because he was fucking other guys' daughters and that kind of thing, you know, that this very much this godlike character.

But finding out, no, he wasn't, he was human, he was ruled by his dick, he loved being in power and in control, and he made a lot of mistakes, he did a lot of awful things. Finding that out is is enough to break people's faith, because there's that plus thing. I mean, even the minor issues, like the Book of Mormon and how the Book of Mormon was supposedly, supposedly translated. Those are all issues for TBMs to find out that the church had lied when they've said they can't.

And, you know, when the church itself says they never lie, they never tell a non -truth, They're always true. You know, all of this is true. Joseph Smith was a true prophet. The Book of Mormon is the word of God. The church is the only true church upon the the face of the earth, these are all things that you're taught and has drilled into your brain all your life, and finding out that they lied about their own history, that's that's a huge shelf breaker, that's one of probably the most common one for uh xmos.

0:27:26 Thomas: Sorry, what? They can't what? What? Oh, right.

0:27:57 Thomas: So I guess I was. So that's kind of what's happening. But but specifically, maybe it's hard for me to know, like what history was lied about. Yeah. So, God, I think Bryce is going to jump.

0:28:08 Bryce: That yeah

0:27:58 Shannon: Yeah. Yeah and that's the other hard part is Was this too, and, and it actually bothered me how quickly they jumped back forth. I thought the book did it better because it would be an entire chapter on this Part of the history. And so, you know, it delineated it a little bit better. But in the show, I think the flashback and forth, it was more of him visualizing what Alan was telling him or else what he was reading in that book and seeing these are historical things that are lies. But I think that should have been shown better, you knew, explained better.

0:28:09 Bryce: Yes Yeah.

0:28:18 Thomas: Hmm.

0:28:40 Bryce: And that's one of those things where I I feel like certain elements of this show were made for an exclusively Mormon audience only. And I think very well captured when the book that he gets, Mormonism, Shadow of Reality, very few people know what that book is. Very few people know what the prominence of that book and like what's going on and why he's even weeping while he's sitting in the car reading it.

0:28:51 Shannon: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:51 Thomas: Mm hmm.

0:29:10 Bryce: But every single ex-Mormon who, you know, left because because of church history, watches that scene, and they're crying right alongside with Andrew Garfield, because it is such a harrowing moment. They can remember the time when they first learned that Joseph Smith, you know, raped a 14-year-old and called her his wife, Right? They remember these events. They remember themselves.

They see themselves in Jeb Pyrie as someone who was an otherwise a very good, believing, stalwart Mormon, and they learn some little details about church, church history, and they learn them along, you know, they, they learn him just like Jeb did, where it's just these little tiny snapshots of the real history, and this catalyzes the, the shelf breaking, this is what makes the faith crisis and To go back to that scene, I think that's very important to illustrate, because Jeb's wife, you know, she comes out to the car and asks him what he's doing, and he looks down and she sees the book, she sees what book is there on the car seat, and she says, "I can't go through this with you," and That's something that's very common in the church as well is the faith divide in relationships, the church drives a wedge between couples, but, you know, between family members, when there is an ideological difference, and, you know, the entire podcasts and books are devoted to people trying to navigate an interfaith faith or intermarriage faith crisis, and they, they, it shows in the show that the church and the culture of Mormonism does not provide the tools for these people to be the support for each other that they need to be, and what it does do is causes more damage, it causes the, these two otherwise loving people with, you know, kids, uh, have a conflict where there shouldn't be a conflict, and that's something that I think a lot of ex

0:29:20 Shannon: Right. Right. Right.

0:30:12 Shannon: When

0:30:12 Thomas: Yeah.

0:31:04 Bryce: -mormons go through yep

0:31:06 Shannon: She says to him that she's going to raise her children with a man of faith, whether it be him or somebody else, that is something that happens hundreds of times to people in the church. And so you end up with a lot of people like him, where we call them Pimos, they're physically in mentally out. And yeah. And that's how the show ends, is with him like that, and so that's why I think this show is really, like Bryce said, aimed at Mormons, and they have to see themselves in it, they object to a lot of things, they're like, "No, we're not that sexist," and I'm like, "Yeah, you are."

0:31:24 Thomas: Yeah.

0:31:40 Bryce: Yep.

0:31:40 Shannon: Or we don't call them Lamanites and I'M LIKE YEAH WE DID ALL THE TIME THEN

0:31:46 Thomas: Right. The his partner, the Native American man, he's always referred to as a Lamanite.

0:31:49 Bryce: Yep

0:31:46 Shannon: Yeah the Native American yeah we all did we all did it then we thought it was being respectful you know it's a piece of shit thing but yeah Yeah. So yeah, the value of this for never Mormons is, like you, is part of it is you do see some of the batshit stuff in Mormonism. And you see it very strong and very clear. But it's also problematic because you also don't understand some of what's going on. And so, you know, there are flaws to it, like the presentation of the historical stuff. Even that stuff, anyway I'm

0:31:51 Bryce: It

0:31:56 Thomas: Oh, sure. Yeah, very respectful. Well,

0:32:30 Shannon: Not gonna get it out it was good enough yeah okay

0:32:30 Bryce: Was good enough right in

0:32:30 Lindsey: I didn't even realize how much of this was going over my head when I watched it, actually. This is really fascinating. Most of what I got from the historical stuff, and I guess this was a really small part of it, it was just that the the roots of the church are so sort of tied to this whole like anti-state separatist thing that was getting sort of replayed in the family I've got.

0:32:37 Shannon: Yes Oh.

0:32:51 Lindsey: Kind of a random question on that point, um, do you happen to know if there was much of an FLDS presence at January 6th, or is that not the kind of thing they could really find? Common cause with other groups on oh

0:33:05 Bryce: Watching the Hearings, uh, I, I have suspicions but nothing to confirm this, so I know probably a lot of people saw the dude dressed up like he was a Roman soldier, quote unquote, no, he was dressed up as a, as a Book of Mormon character, uh, Uh, but there I do have Some suspications in watching the hearings, there's this, apparently, this group of, uh, like Proud Boys that came up from Arizona that were wearing orange shirts or orange hats and armbands, um, there's a very large contingency of like really radical Mormons living down there, that's where the Bundys are.

0:33:05 Shannon: That's yeah yeah

0:33:19 Lindsey: Really? Really?

0:33:40 Bryce: Right. Like Ted and Am, or not Ted Bunny, uh, Ammon, uh, and Moroni Bundy, um, I have a suspicion that they're, that those might be fundamentalists, or at least, um, corporate believing Mormons that read the more esoteric shit like Cleon Skousen, um, I, I have nothing to actually confirm that, but Also, it's, it's worth pointing out too that for a lot of the fundamentalists, they have been historical, this is more for the people living in Short Creek, that's the twin cities, uh, straddling the border between Utah and Arizona, uh, the Short Creek, this is where the FLDS, the Warren Jeff's FLDS church was headquartered, and where most of the people living there are polygamists, they have historically been very much, uh, persecuted uh by the federal government, they hate the government, absolutely.

0:33:40 Lindsey: Okay I

0:33:59 Shannon: Right. Right.

0:34:28 Bryce: Hate it so for a lot of them even like trump isn't even that appealing to them because he's a representation of the federal government they want to destroy all government bring all of it down and just be totally self -governing yes

0:34:35 Lindsey: That's yeah that was right yeah that makes sense convenient

0:34:47 Shannon: Yeah with the rest of mormonism it's complicated complicated I mean you've got mitt romney in there who's uh was mary g romney was uncle grandpa to him his uncle was one of the top echelon of leaders, that kind of thing, you know, he's got one of those names in history. Yeah, it's complicated as long as it's a Republican government, they're happy, but they're also with the attitude of, "Well, if he got elected, then that means God wants him there." And I was, you know, last time they said that to me when Trump was elected, I was like, "So are you saying that God stood in the polling booth and pushed the number for him for everybody who voted for him?" I waslike "No, I don't think so."

0:34:52 Bryce: Uh his uncle I believe yeah it's complicated, they're called the dominion unrighteous dominion machines for a reason right That's

0:35:35 Lindsey: Yeah interesting

0:35:42 Shannon: Yeah, Mormons believe in free agency, that's their huge deal, of, you know, the people who came to earth are the ones that voted for free agency in the free earth life, but they don't actually believe in it

0:35:53 Thomas: I didn't vote for you. Yeah that's crazy I love that that's that solves the free will problem no you don't understand before you can remember you definitely voted for this whole stupid setup oh great awesome so that's how I had free will that's fantastic wow you

0:35:54 Shannon: Yeah yeah they you

0:36:05 Bryce: Right. I hope.

0:36:05 Shannon: Know they It's funny because they don't actually really believe it, they don't practice it, and so helicopter moms are common in Mormonism and, you know, things like that. This whole thing of, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna let you, you're old enough now, you're 14, you can decide if you go to church or not," and the kid says, "I'm not gonna go church," then then you say, say, "What, wrong decision, try again." It's like, yeah, we're letting you make it that's

0:36:32 Thomas: Are free to choose the thing that I want you to choose yeah well It's also, you get it with the... the selective, and this happens with, I don't know, every religion too, but the selective, like, well, God wanted this to happen so it happened, but then you just wouldn't do anything. You'd just be like, well, then whatever, I'll just sit here and whatever happens, happens. It's this selective, like, no, no, sometimes God wanted me to do something to stop stuff from happening, and that's what he wanted to happen. Other times it just happened because he wants it. And it's like, yeah, but you have to make that decision. Whatever filter you're using to make that decision

0:36:35 Bryce: Exactly. Yep. Let's

0:36:36 Shannon: Very mormont very very Mormon, right?

0:37:06 Shannon: Yes

0:37:06 Thomas: Is the thing that's deciding all those things.

0:37:07 Bryce: See. Mormonism has a convenient little out for any of these moral conundrums, and that's the two plans, right? So we have the Jesus plan and the Lucifer plan, that both, you know, Jesus and...

0:37:19 Thomas: Oh, it's not like a data plan, a text plan. It's a different, this

0:37:22 Bryce: Right.

0:37:21 Shannon: This is the... the war in heaven in the pre -earth life, it was actually God's plan versus Lucifer's plan, but Jesus was like, nope, let's do his, because that's what he said, everybody gets to choose, not everybody comes back. Lucifer is like, well, just take away the choice, make everybody come back. Yeah, no.

0:37:40 Bryce: Yeah, so God went with... No, I thought it was that Jesus and Satan as brothers proposed the plan to God, and God made the choice.

0:37:45 Shannon: God proposed the plan, Lucifer said, oh no, no, I have a better one, and Jesus is like, nope, nope, I support that. Yeah.

0:37:54 Bryce: That's right. Okay, yeah, yeah, uh, so yeah satan's plan is totalitarian control yep yep yep exactly that literally dictate the fabric of our universe yes yes yes uh and

0:37:57 Thomas: Wasn't like rival PowerPoint point presentations about, uh, yeah,

0:37:56 Shannon: Yes yeah yes and a third a Third of the host of heaven decided they liked Lucifer's idea, so all of them got cast out and Lucifer became Satan, and he hates all of us, so he's trying to drag us all down there, which is always such an interesting thought because it's like, did he hate everybody? He's like, let's just get everybody back to live, live with you. This is how we could do it.

0:38:07 Bryce: Yeah yeah

0:38:26 Thomas: It sounds like you just had a different methodology.

0:38:29 Shannon: It's a different methodology, but it's the same methodology that gets applied here. So really, which plan won?

0:38:36 Bryce: That's

0:38:38 Thomas: We'll never know. Well, as

0:38:39 Shannon: Yeah.

0:38:40 Bryce: Right yeah pray and obey stay sweet yes

0:38:43 Thomas: Begin to draw to a close, I did want to pick up on, you mentioned, you know, Mormons watching this and I did wanna ask you, will Mormons watch this? Is this something Mormons will watch?

0:38:51 Shannon: Mormons have. Yeah, Mormons have.

0:38:53 Thomas: How will they, how will they feel about it?

0:38:52 Bryce: Our yeah our little world is on fire with this right now

0:38:57 Shannon: It is totally on fire.

0:38:57 Thomas: Ooh, awesome.

0:38:58 Shannon: There's so many articles, so many Facebook posts, social media, blog posts, TikTok videos, all sorts of stuff everywhere where they're just like, no, it's not like that it's not that sexist no we didn't do that, nobody does that yeah yeah and And they are pissed at seeing billboards showing Becca going through the, or not Becca, but Brenda, going through the temple, showing the temple clothing on her. They are pissed as all hell about that, and and there are many that won't watch it because of that yeah

0:38:57 Bryce: Yeah

0:39:01 Thomas: Awesome. Oh, so are they hate watching it? You think? Okay.

0:39:09 Lindsey: The

0:39:12 Bryce: Plenty are here watching

0:39:27 Thomas: Yeah. Blood Yeah. They better blood atone that billboard. Yeah, well, I guess. And actually, again, cause I wasn't familiar with this. Who was the author of the book then? Was he a Mormon? Was He an ex Mormon?

0:39:31 Bryce: Yeah three

0:39:31 Shannon: We go nope john john crack hour who wrote in the into thin air yeah yeah and it really is a very good book he it was published what 2006 was it 2003

0:39:39 Thomas: Huh?

0:39:42 Lindsey: Wild guy yeah yeah

0:39:50 Bryce: I believe yeah right in the wake of the 9-11 attacks uh when when a lot of people were talking about religious fundamentalism that's

0:39:52 Shannon: Okay yeah yeah yeah there's a lot of the history that he gets into even things like the Elizabeth smart kidnapping and other stuff like that there's you really need to it It is.

0:40:06 Bryce: Right I am it's an excellent excellent book

0:40:10 Lindsey: Interesting

0:40:08 Thomas: I got to read this book. Well, but, but so does it seem like, was it the kind of thing where with the book where Mormons reading it was the kind thing where it was easy to be like, "Wow, this isn't a Mormon. And he doesn't know anything," you know, like, what do you think was the kind of the Mormon world reaction to it

0:40:13 Shannon: Yes, Mormons do that. I read it as a true believing Mormon. And I was like, well, he's just got a weird attitude about Joseph Smith, but I want to see what he says about Ron and Dan, you know? And so I believed more of the Ron and dan stuff and didn't believe the others.

0:40:34 Bryce: Mm-hmm yeah

0:40:24 Thomas: Oh I see so Mormons have as much of a drive for true crime entertainment as anybody else they're like all right I'll put up with this anti -Mormon stuff to get my true crime fix

0:40:45 Shannon: Yep. Right. Cause they're talking about these guys that were Mormon. Yeah. And So yeah, yeah, the other problem you run into is, is they're going to turn a blind eye. But the problem you get is for them, at least not you get, but they get is it's in their head and it ends up on a shelf because they don't want to think about it. They don't wanna think about what they read, but it does lead people to start looking into what they've read.

And the information age now now does make it better for people who are trying to look for true history stuff. General authorities every general conference keep bringing up, you know, don't believe what you read on the internet because they don't like Mormons going and looking up information, trying to find other sources than their whitewashed sources for true information, for real information. And so, but but it's all out there. It's all available.

More and more people are finding it and seeing it and reading it and believing it. And so, you know, when you're seeing a court record of Joseph Smith being arrested for some of the shit he did at the age of 14, you know that starts making you think other things. Yeah. So

0:40:51 Thomas: Yeah wow

0:42:01 Shannon: At any rate, that's one of the best parts about the book. I think is it does actually help lead people out. That's one OF the few things that did with me.

0:42:11 Thomas: That's really interesting yeah

0:42:11 Lindsey: Yeah

0:42:12 Bryce: I will comment that the the criticisms uh against the book are similar criticisms criticisms levied against the series understandably One being patterned after the other. However, uh, criticisms are that it's too generalized, it's painting with too broad of a brush, it's saying that religion in general can breed this, this radicalism and extremism, and that, you know, drawing tenuous connections between events that happened in the 1830s, 40s, 50s to events that happen in the 1980s, you just can't do that, and no respectable historian would do such a thing. Uh, like, generally I think that drawing strict parallels between the two of them, or you know, like seeing a line of causation between the two, um, stepping into the realm of some, some deep psychology that historians largely are not trained to do. Uh, that does mean that any time that that there is a slight inaccuracy. This happened a lot more with the show than it did the book, but anytime there's a slight inaccuracity with the history, then that becomes a target, a polemical point of attack to delegitimize the entire book or the entire series.

0:42:12 Shannon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:43:24 Bryce: And I think that that's one of those criticisms, like certain events, especially with the flashbacks that are depicted, they're depicted out of sequence. Events are, you know, elevated to be more impactful than they actually were at the time. Uh, some things are, it's the history Of it is yeah that's right yeah dragons flying around in the back and nobody knows what the fuck's going on the those those criticisms are largely being levied to delegitimize the whole thing and I think it's very important that we don't give into those, and we circle back to the central thesis that I think still holds true both in the book and the show, that Mormonism breeds dangerous men. And we see how the founder of Mormonism was a dangerous man, and how periodically throughout the history of the church, dangerous men result from the tools that the culture and the theology give them. And that is a good takeaway. And another other point that I do want to, you know, give kudos to this series, I is one of the very few times in modern media where I see the atheists depicted as the moral ones and

0:43:42 Thomas: There's a Starbucks cup in the scene with Joseph Smith

0:43:50 Shannon: Right? Right. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

0:44:32 Bryce: I was like fuck yes thank you finally I feel seen

0:44:32 Lindsey: I feel

0:44:33 Thomas: Yeah oh man and and you think for a second I was worried though were you worried for that they were going to do some like oh he's going to come with his like Native American new wavy type religion thing, but the way they did it was like so good, I really liked it where I was Worried that it was going to get a little like new agey kind of you stuff, and that and he wasn't really going to be an atheist, but uh, no, they pulled that out. I love that actor, love that character, that that was, that dynamic was so good. I do, again, highly recommend the show for everybody if you haven't seen it and you're still listening it's really good

0:44:50 Bryce: Totally It, was good it was really good

0:44:42 Shannon: Yeah? Yeah. My favorite line there was, the atheists weren't lying. That's a skill particularly to your ancestors, Jeb. And that was good.

0:45:16 Bryce: Yeah yeah

0:45:16 Thomas: Yeah well shall we leave it there what do you think all Right, uh, thank you so much once, uh, again, Bryce and Shannon, and the Glass Box Podcast. Do you want to throw out any plugs for anything else while you're here?

0:45:19 Shannon: Yes, yeah,

0:45:20 Bryce: Uh Mean, yeah, that's, if you want the serialized history, that's Naked Mormonism, that's where I got my start, but then, and, you know, Shannon and I do kind of like Andrew -esque, if we can appropriate that, deep dives into Mormon headlines and Mormon history on Glassbox, as well as we do long form reviews of like the most dangerous books in Mormon culture and stuff. So that's where we like to hang out every two weeks. And the social medias, of course.

0:45:39 Thomas: Love it thanks so much for

0:45:54 Bryce: Yeah. I

0:45:50 Shannon: Yeah! So

0:45:54 Thomas: For giving us your time I'll throw out Watch your social media if you'd like to.

0:45:57 Shannon: Find us just Glass Box Podcast. You can find us on Facebook, Facebook Twitter Instagram I'm not very good at Twitter I'm the one who does it all because Bryce doesn't yeah he's just not this no he doesn't I know

0:46:06 Bryce: Don't belong in this century. I belong in a cabin.

0:46:09 Thomas: Yeah, because Bryce is like actually mentally healthy and we all just aren't. Is that?

0:46:11 Lindsey: That yeah

0:46:16 Bryce: I wouldn't go that far, but I'm trying.

0:46:20 Shannon: And we're on Patreon of course but yeah okay

0:46:23 Bryce: Yeah

0:46:23 Thomas: Of check him out. And thanks so much for coming on and giving us your time. I really enjoyed that.

0:46:28 Lindsey: Thank you yeah

0:46:23 Bryce: Absolutely you both it was a pleasure and pleasure to come on thank you

0:46:30 Lindsey: Super interesting

0:46:40 Clip: Thank you so much for listening to Serious Inquiries Only. If you like the show, the absolute best thing you can do is support us at patreon.com/seriouspod. The second best thing you can do, is please share it on social media or by word of mouth. Speaking of social media, follow me on Twitter at Serious Pod. If would like to be Facebook friends, send me a request at facebook.com Thomas podcast. If not up for that level of intimacy, that's fine. Maybe you want to join the discussion at facebook.com slash groups slash SIO members. Thank you again for listening. We'll see you next time.