SIO213: Democratic Debate No. 43

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:04 Clip: You're listening to Serious Inquiries Only.

0:00:29 Thomas: Hello

0:00:29 Jamie: I

0:00:30 Thomas: And welcome to Serious Inquiries Only, this is episode 213, I'm Thomas Smith, out over there is Jamie File, how are you doing Jamie?

0:00:36 Jamie: Am alright, you know though, I've got to be honest, I have been seeing the posts on Facebook of you and Andrew's fan event and I am a little bit jealous, that's fair, that is fair, but I was kind of thinking we need to figure out, we need tell the listeners to hit the subscribe button so we can have a fan event,

0:00:44 Thomas: Hey, I invited you out to the last one, that should count for something. I know, I know. This show would need to grow by about three times, and then maybe we could do it. So, get out. Everybody tell two

0:01:03 Jamie: Yeah, so do that guys, because I am, yeah.

0:01:05 Thomas: Or three friends and make them subscribe, and we're good. Me. It's not done for me. Jamie wants a live show.

0:01:11 Jamie: Yeah. Just for Jamie. Yeah. Jamie's got FOMO. I don't even want to do the live show so much as I just want to like hang out and like cook dinner. That looked awesome.

0:01:17 Thomas: No, you just want to hang out. Oh, well that, that was really awesome. I'm sorry that it wasn't in New York, but Hey, you got to come to the, uh, the VIP thing last time. We'll see. Maybe next time we're in the area. Uh, yeah, that Was a lot of fun. I've, uh I've had a roller coaster week from that and we We both watched the second or fifth, yeah, I don't know, somewhere in the number range from four to eight debate last night. More candidates than ever, just what we need. And, oh, Steyer? Is that who you're talking about? Yeah. You know, he was, he could, he wasn't, whatever, he's fine. I don't, I'm not going to vote for him, but, like, he didn't particularly offend me in anyway. And I like that. He's like, I'm a billionaire and we should pay taxes. I'm always, I'm almost down for that. That's cool. I

0:01:29 Jamie: I did. I did.

0:01:43 Jamie: Fourth or fifth and Skeletor. This one featured Skeletor. Yeah, yeah.

0:02:14 Jamie: Yeah

0:02:14 Thomas: Don't know, but,

0:02:14 Jamie: No I would totally eat him last out of all of the billionaires.

0:02:18 Thomas: Uh, yeah. So there's that to talk about. Um, it's hard though. I think maybe Jamie, uh, we have the same feelings here. Now I, I was in a particularly foul mood after being on hold for two hours trying to do some bullshit yesterday and then I watched the debate. So I was already a little agitated, but I'm just, they all decided it's time to finally attack Elizabeth Warren, and they all decided that at once, and they all did it in variously annoying ways. And some things are, you know, it's fine. It's valid, whatever. I'm not saying any candidate shouldn't be, you know, questioned in different ways. But, like, it just was a... The format of having 12 fucking people on stage getting 11 seconds to make a bad faith, like like rhetoric based argument is just, it's such a waste of time. Right.

0:03:08 Jamie: I'm with you. I am so so frustrated with these debates. They're, they've reached the point where they're just tedious. It's not interesting. There's too long a time in between anybody who I actually care about is going to say anything. And I just feel like we're rehashing the same things that have already been said. And, I just, I kind of wish they'd get together and figure out like who's going to be who and whose cabinet and like narrow this field down to like five.

0:03:40 Thomas: Yeah. I don't know what it takes to do that. Also wish it could be like an in-depth, um, couple people debate on one issue at a time, you know, do, do multiple nights, do whatever, with the climate change debate, the health care debate, and actually have to, people have to make cases that aren't just rhetoric on stuff, otherwise it's just boring word tricks.

I, you know, my, my, probably my most, um, for me the thing that annoys me most about these debates, and it's not as though it's invalid a hundred percent of the time, but most of the time it's just the trick is this, sit there on stage, wait, wait, wait, wait, about an hour, and then, because of the limits of the laws of physics, we can't have talked about every single issue, and then interrupt, you know, I just need to point out it's been an hour and we haven't even talked about blah, and then, like, that's your big applause line, and yes, for whatever the debate is, inevitably you won't have talking about it a major important issue, and you can bring it up, and sometimes it's valid. I'm not saying it's always invalid. Like, sometimes if there's something, you know, that really should be discussed or whatever, but that could work.

It's a trick that happens 10 out of 10 debates. And I'm just sick of it. Like, all right, we have, yes, they're going along with what the stupid ass moderators are asking. It's not the fault of the, all the candidates that they didn't bring up your pet issue in the time that you wanted them to. I don't know. It's not, it's just rhetoric. It's not, they all have positions on everything.

0:05:13 Jamie: Completely agree, this um, this debate just struck me as irredeemably hollow, um, and rhetorical and boring, um, you know, I'm so, I think you said it best on Facebook when you, like, they just want Elizabeth Warren to say the magic word. And I'm so frustrated with this. And I'm particularly disappointed With Pete Buttigieg as he tries to carve out a space to the right of Sanders and Warren, trying to get her in some sort of gotcha moment where she has to say, yes, your taxes will go up. Because I just feel like it, it insults the intelligence of the audience. And it's banking on this idea that the average voter tuned into these debates can't tell the difference between their taxes going up and their overall costs going down. It's just insulting how stupid they think the voters are that like, this is what we're wasting time on.

0:05:34 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know. No, I never would have dreamed. I thought we settled this and I never thought with the New York Times, too. It was them pushing that like it was the New York Times host that was like, oh, finally, here's the question we need. We need to try 47 more times to get Elizabeth Warren to say a thing that is meaningless. It doesn't matter. Now, I hear you. There are people who are like, well, Bernie, just admit it like, yeah, taxes will go up and that's fine. OK, I on one hand, fine, like I get it. But on the other hand, and forgive me for this, we have to find a non-shitty, non-politically incorrect, insensitive, homophobic equivalent. But this was just in middle school when the bullies would try to ask me if my mom knew I was gay. That's all. I mean, really? And then they're like, yes or no. Yeah, exactly.

0:07:06 Jamie: Does your wife know? I'm just kidding.

0:07:09 Thomas: Like that's the what's the we need a new version of that. That's not shitty. Like, does your does your mom know that you what that you hate animals? I don't know. What's a thing that like everybody can rally around is like an unambiguously bad thing. I don't know. There's gotta be a better version, right?

0:07:10 Jamie: Right.

0:07:24 Jamie: It's also stupid, it's It's stupid. It sort of read scary, um, where they're trying to resurrect this like communist bogeyman, um, and it's just dishonest, and it particularly offensive in light of the overall reality of what we're dealing with. And it, it's particularly frustrating because, uh, on one side of their, on his mouth, and I'm really going to pick on Pete Buttigieg here. I'll save my my picking on Biden for later. You know, it's really disingenuous to be talking about, you know, what a uniquely dangerous political moment we're in, we are legitimately facing a constitutional crisis. And then to spend all of this energy on absolute bullshit nitpicking, like, yeah, your taxes are going to go up, but you will save money. And, you know, it's it's just, just awful to at the same time be insisting how dangerous this is, to be muddying the waters of things that really matter to people, and that they shouldn't have to spend hours trying to figure out at the time that their government is in the middle of a constitutional crisis. And if

0:07:30 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. He, he drove me nuts too.

0:08:36 Jamie: That's what you're doing, I'm sorry, you've betrayed that you lack the leadership necessary to be president. The end.

0:08:42 Thomas: Yeah, I, I have a lot of the same thoughts. And he also had the gall to be the guy who was like, look, the politicians are tired of this infighting. They're tired of it. Like what? What? You're the guy doing it most of anybody, most of anybody.

0:08:55 Jamie: Right. Right, and it's particularly disappointing because as an up-and-coming politician, Buttigieg seemed to have some principled values. He actually won the speech writing contest. It was like the JFK Profile and Courage Award or something, and he actually wrote an essay that won this award talking about the effectiveness of Bernie Sanders and how he was able to stand for the courage of his convictions and the overall all positive impact this, yeah, that this has had on our political system, and now he's just very cynically attempting to carve out, you know, this, you know, it's probably center left, just by virtue of like how far off the cliff the right has gone, um, but this sort of like, at least to the right of Warren and Sanders, sort of like corporatist, down with like rainbows and drones, um, position to try to chip into Joe, what I imagine he suspects is Joe Biden or Kamala Harris's support, but

0:08:59 Thomas: Uh, really? Wow. Yeah.

0:10:04 Thomas: And again, on the, on the yes or no, and he tried, well, it's a yes or no question. They're tired of this Washington speak. Okay. Some yes or no questions could be valid and it might be annoying if, if a politician is dodging, but Elizabeth Warren is saying you are asking the wrong question, and she is committing to, it is not, not a content. Avoiding the yes or no question can be bad if you are dodging and not answering the important point, or you're trying to like stall or whatever. She is just retranslating into, "Here's what I will pledge to total costs for the people who need total costs to go down. We'll go down, it'll only go up for the wealthiest and corporations." That's a substantive answer. It is translating it into a different terms, but it's still a substantive substantive answer to the question.

0:10:45 Jamie: I will, yeah. I agree with you. I am going to push back a little bit though. I think she should just bite the freaking bullet. I mean, especially since Bernie was like, "Yeah, taxes are gonna go up, fuck you." Um, I think Warren has nothing to lose, um,

0:11:07 Thomas: I think that, but I think she does, because I think that Bernie saying that it will be a general election problem, I think. And I think he has made the calculation that it, I don't think, I agree with you that it's, I doubt that it matters for the primary. But I think it's not unreasonable to think that that could be a soundbite that gets blasted on all these ads in the general election. And she just wants to avoid that. And furthermore, it's like it's a useful answer. It doesn't doesn't matter. It's one side of the equation.

0:11:39 Jamie: No, so I don't, I'm not, I'm not even saying that I disagree with you, um, and and it's it's quite plausible, right, that that all things considered can be the more, um, plausible political calculus. Like, I'm, you may be right, um, I I don't know um certainly if she says your taxes are going to go up, right? They're going to make billboards of that. It's going to be in every Facebook ad. I don't disagree with you.

0:12:03 Thomas: Right.

0:12:06 Jamie: I think it's possible that if the opposition is going to put up ads saying those things, it's just as possible to put a ad saying your costs will go down. This will overall cost you less money, and also you will never have to fight on on the phone to get something approved by your insurance. Like, I can even tell you, like, I wish there was a calculation for how many hours Americans have spent on the phone trying to get things approved between.

0:12:34 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so awful. It stressful, unpleasant. Yeah absolutely.

0:12:44 Jamie: Right. And that's something that never gets talked about. How many soccer games are missed because you have to sit on hold for an hour and a half with your insurance company? How many, you know, parents are snapping at their kids and not sitting down to do homework because they're filing, you know, the fifth claim for this life-saving device that the insurance company knows enough, you know, they'll save x amount of dollars if they make people jump through the hoops four times instead of three times. Like, none of that is getting discussed because we're wasting time on, "Will you say the magic word, of 'taxes will go up'?"

0:13:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:13:20 Jamie: And I'm really disappointed in Buttigieg for pushing this line.

0:13:20 Thomas: Well. And Agreed. And there is another version of it too, which is Biden's, "Whoa, this is, is going to cost 30 trillion dollars over whatever, 10 is trillions of dollars." And that's another case of looking at one end of the ledger, uh, ledger, oh, ledger, weird, ledger. Because look, we have a thing that is the cost of health care as a population, right? I mean, we have that. And if you, right now the way it works is, you know, the, the we're paying, uh, insurance company profits, like that is part of the cost that doesn't need to be there under Warren and Bernie's, and several of the candidates' plans, but Warren and Berni Medicare for All plan. So that's money you save when you get rid of that profit motive. And that's a lot of money. And same would go for, like, ability to negotiate prescription drugs and all these savings that'll go down.

0:14:15 Thomas: What will happen though, is there's a shift in just the timing of payments of stuff. And so many of these questions are based on, Ooh, but just look at one end of the shift of that. So, yeah, Biden's out there saying, well, this dwarfs the cost of the Pentagon or whatever. And it's like, yeah. But we're paying a different way just because we send the bill or rather we send the check to an insurance company. And then all we do is like what change the name of that check to the U.S. government and it'll be lower by a substantial amount than we were sending to insurance companies. But just because of that, like that, that's an outrage. Wage? No. All that means is the government will handle more of like the handling of payments. It doesn't really increase the cost. You have to, you know, the taxes will go up, of course, but overall costs will go down by a lot.

0:15:06 Jamie: But in fairness, Joe Biden can just jump right off a cliff with this.

0:15:10 Thomas: Well, I miss the previous debates where we could all agree on attacking Joe Biden. This new format of attacking Elizabeth Warren, for me personally, wasn't as fun.

0:15:11 Jamie: Okay. Yeah. So if I may, I'd like to pick on Joe Biden a little bit because I'd like to remind everybody that he voted for the Iraq War, which is now going into its 18th, 19th year. The United States has spent close to $5 trillion on our adventures in the Middle East. And what we got for that is ISIS. So Joe Biden complaining about how much healthcare cost is like somebody calling out their husband for dumping a bunch of money on cocaine and responding with, "Well, you spend a whole lot more on groceries than I do on cocaine," as though these are in any way apt comparisons. We have absolutely nothing of value to show for the $5 trillion we have spent in the Middle East, except we're going to have to keep spending more because we've now created super terrorists in the form of ISIS that have escaped their prisons, apparently. Whereas healthcare actually goes to provide for things that people need and contribute to their overall well-being. So Joe Biden, should you ever listen to this show, please jump off a cliff.

0:16:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:16:35 Thomas: I'm not going to hold my breath, but you never know.

0:16:37 Jamie: Yeah, just saying.

0:16:39 Thomas: Yeah. I, uh, let's see. Here's the weird thing about Biden. You know, I thought he was pretty much Biden again. Like I didn't really think he, I mean, he's so confused all the time. He's saying the wrong countries for different stuff. But one thing that was surprising to me is that, and I don't know if this is him or his campaign, somebody look, you're not ready for the most obvious question in the history of debates about your son, Hunter Biden. Like, didn't it it seem like he had not even a good answer for that and by any standards?

0:16:39 Jamie: Yeah.

0:17:09 Thomas: How did you not see that coming?

0:17:07 Jamie: I was, I was surprised by that.

0:17:11 Thomas: You should have, that question should be, okay, time to launch into my really nicely, tightly prepared to whatever, two minute long, how much time you get, uh, that, that will hit all the points I want to hit about this because anyone who's even a casual observer knows this this question is coming.

0:17:29 Jamie: And it's so stupid because he seemed to like really set himself up for it by announcing that if he were president, nobody in his, nobody and his family would be be part of the administration. And it's like, dude, like your son's already benefited from nepotism. Like whether or not Hunter Biden engaged any sort of, you know, criminal activity in Ukraine aside, which to be clear, there is no evidence that he did. He clearly got that job because of nepotisme. There's like strange credulity to think that he would have been on the board of, you know an oil and gas company in the Ukraine to the tune of what was it? $800,000 a month or something ridiculous.

0:17:58 Thomas: Right.

0:18:08 Thomas: Something like $50,000 a month, I believe is what it was.

0:18:11 Jamie: $80,000, something like that. $800,000 a year, maybe, if his father weren't the vice president of the United States. So we can just set that aside. Like, yes, he got that job because his father was the vice president. And so like, okay, sure, you know, how everything works is corrupt. And like, we're just coming to terms with that as a country. But then don't just step your foot in it by trying to pat yourself on the back as though you are going to uniquely and and virtuously stand against nepotism. Have some sense.

0:18:40 Thomas: Yeah, I thought it was, I almost, it's odd, but if I were Biden, because didn't they announce that he was going to, Hunter Biden, didn't he resign from something else or he did? I don't, He shouldn't have even, honestly, don't even bother. It's not like, we already know that this is part of the world. It would be very difficult, even if under like a perfect super liberal progressive regime, to write laws that says like people can't offer the sons of leaders jobs that probably pay too much. Like that's a, there's a lot I want to accomplish with a progressive agenda, but like that's just one of those things like, all right, well, I mean, that's kind of going to happen. I don't know how you would even do that. Like people are allowed to hire people and pay them too much. It'd be very difficult for me. Maybe I'm missing something. But like that, the idea that any of the focus should be on whatever Hunter Biden made versus the fucking Trump kids that are working for his administration and profiting and doing all this stuff.

0:18:51 Jamie: He did. I

0:19:44 Thomas: It is just completely backwards. We shouldn't even acknowledge the bad faith attack from the right on this. It should should 100% just be, he should have had a prepared speech about how each of the Trump kids is benefiting and has power they shouldn't have and all that. And just don't even fucking acknowledge anything else. I don't know. That's just me though.

0:20:06 Jamie: Agree with you. I'm going to push back a little bit. I think part of what makes Trump so distasteful to the Nancy Pelosi's of the world or the Joe Biden's for the world is that he is, in some respects, doing things that are very similar to what has always been done. He's just doing them in a way that's flagrant and in your face and uncouth and he's not really playing by the rules, right? Um, you're right, you bring an important point, there is a world of difference between Hunter Biden, you know, leveraging his father's connection for a position that he, like he probably doesn't really deserve and is definitely getting overpaid for, and you know, Ivanka Trump serving as a goddamn diplomat. Like, these are worlds apart. Um, It

0:20:59 Thomas: It really is. It's not even close.

0:21:01 Jamie: Is, it is. And I'm, I'm with you there, really should have been a better prepared answer for this. Um, you know, and just off the cuff I can think of of several. And so again, I don't know if it's because Joe Biden himself doesn't appreciate, um, the way that you Americans are becoming aware of how the very wealthy and the very well-connected use their connections to further entrench their privilege and are becoming uncomfortable with that in a way that deserves speaking to, or if he's just insensible to the concerns of his staff who are like, hey, we should probably be prepared for this because this is going to be awkward. And he's not listening. But either way, again, it does not suggest somebody who's fit to be be president of the United States. Yeah,

0:21:52 Thomas: What about like, does your mom know you think the earth is flat? Does that one work? Let's do that. Does your mom knows you think that it is flat. I don't think the, whoa, a yes or no question that you can't answer. I asked, does you mom know that you think world is flat, but I don't think the the world, that's it, yes or no, the only acceptable answer is because we're all school children and that's the level of this stupid fucking exchange on the Elizabeth Warren tax plan, sorry just her health care plan rather just just bothers me

0:22:18 Jamie: No, I'm with you. I'm with you and you know, if we weren't going to do this episode, I would have turned it off because just the level of debate here is, you know, aggressively stupid. Nobody is being sincere. Everybody is trying to score these, you know, cheap sort of got-you points for, you know, Twitter sized bits and it's gross. Um, and it it's gross, and it is gross in a way that I think is really dangerous because I think what's happening is that it's very hard to reconcile the claims of Democrats that this president is uniquely dangerous at the same time that they're engaged in these sort of schoolyard talks. It's like, well, well, if the president of the United States was really doing anything that was that bad, obviously Democrats wouldn't be engaged in this sort of petty infighting.

0:22:25 Thomas: Yeah,

0:23:20 Jamie: And therefore, Democrats are engaged in the sort of petit infightings. So modus tollens, like Donald Trump is not that bad. Everything is fine. We don't have to worry about it. And I don't think they realize the extent to which they're undermining their own ability to function as a check on this president, which should be their first duty by the sort of nonsense they're engaging in in these debates.

0:23:47 Thomas: I don't know what it would look like. I think that, uh, I think Booker did a pretty good job of trying to stay on a positive message. I respected that. And I mean, furthermore, look, we all know I'm an Elizabeth Warren fan, but she had to just respond the whole time, but she didn't. What she'll say with, you know, which is definitely uh an attack on the moderates, but it's still like a valid attack, which is let's be imaginative, let's do more, you know, that's a bit different from the framing that, you know, Buttigieg is taking, which is really, really insulting and kind of demeaning. And nevermind Biden's thing at the end where he like points his finger at her and is like, I got you these votes, which is demonstrably got to be untrue.

0:24:33 Thomas: I mean, that's bullshit. And she, she had the perfect response, which was first off, like, oh my God, are you seriously doing this right now? And then said, I'm grateful to President Obama for this position. And then like, she kind of, she would, but she was still a little gentle, told she was like, and anybody else who worked for it, you know, it was, it was that, that I imagine that, um, that's got to be a tough situation. I just think the way she handled it was really like in the moment, on the spot, just handled it perfectly, which is another reason why I'm a big fan. Yeah.

0:25:09 Jamie: Yeah, one of the things that I really admire about Elizabeth Warren is that she seems to just intuitively have an understanding for the way that sexism can work against women and really sort of jujitsu that back. And she doesn't give in to the sort sort of taking offense or getting upset that can disproportionately be held against women compared to men. She very calmly sort of engages it, concedes what she can, and, you know, very nicely responds back to it in a way that makes you feel silly for questioning her. And this is one of the places where I think that she is particularly skilled, and especially as somebody who self-identifies as a Bernie bro still, I think this is the real advantage that she has in 2020 over any of the other candidates. So

0:26:07 Thomas: Speaking of that, um, I am curious to know your thoughts, uh, I've, I gotta admit I'm am a little surprised by this. Uh, quite surprised actually that the, uh, the Squad, AOC and Ilhan Omar, among, I think, I'm not sure if all of them by now have endorsed, but they have decided to endorse Bernie Sanders. Uh. Very interesting, especially at post heart attack, which, you know, credit to Bernie, look, he actually looked probably healthier in this debate than he did in that one where he seemed kind of red and blustery. I don't know if I'm doctor, but I don't know if like before a heart attack, you start having symptoms that are, I'm not sure, but anyway, uh, it looked pretty good, but I, did you find that, uh. How do you feel about that? I want to ask you what you, what your thoughts on the Squad endorsing Bernie are.

0:26:53 Jamie: I've actually got a big smile on my face as you bring this up. Cause I'm thrilled about it. And I think This is great. You know, and I know that there are are good.

0:27:04 Thomas: You Bernie, bro.

0:27:06 Jamie: I, I am. And I'm sorry. And I'm not sorry. And I love Elizabeth Warren. And I've donated to her. And I'm, and I'm recording right now an Elizabeth Warren t-shirt. Um, yeah. And, yeah.

0:27:16 Thomas: All right. Look, I think we can unite. We're both, I am also a fan of Bernie, even though I support Elizabeth Warren more and, uh, that's fine. There's no reason we don't need to, we don't need to hate each other and find these, these you know like little reasons why one or the other is like evil and they're you know come on they

0:27:34 Jamie: So, like, I'm I'm torn right now. If the primary was today, it would really come, I would, honest to God, have to flip a coin as to who to vote for. Um. If I were able to institute a dictator, um, I would pick Bernie Sanders. I think in terms of overall vision, he's got the right answers for what needs to be done. He's got a better assessment of what's wrong and what needs to be fixed than I think Elizabeth Warren does. But given that our system does not operate by a dictator and laws need to work their way through Congress and we need to have congressional allies.

0:28:20 Jamie: I do realize that Elizabeth Warren has advantages over Bernie Sanders in such a system. But I'm really tickled actually at the idea of the squad endorsing Bernie Sanders. There's a part of me that actually feels a little disappointed that I'm not going to be able to be in New York on Saturday, you know, for this endorsement extravaganza when they officially announced because I'll be in Michigan. Because as somebody who supported Bernie Sanders in 2016, and as someone who considers myself to the left and very much a feminist, it was sort of difficult to be dismissed as this sexist sort of Bernie bro who only was supporting Bernie because either I wanted to get dates or I just didn't. Which I mean like in fact I would love a date but like that's not it.

0:29:13 Thomas: Don't like you know I don't think that's gonna factor into your dating life. Is

0:29:16 Jamie: That's that's What Glorious Diamond had said that the reason that you know women were supporting Bernie Sanders is because they thought it was going to you know help them out with the boys um and you Know there's You know she really did and um, which was you know super feminist of her and I really really appreciated it. But you know, there's this idea that Bernie's support is predominantly white and predominantly male. And so that the squad is going to fucking endorse him, I just think is the goddamn greatest thing in the world. And I hope they do it in like Bernie bro t-shirts. Would just be so tickled. And I'm, you know, actually a little bit sad that I will, you don't for the one one time I'm not in this, you know, stupid area, um, I'll be missing something really cool.

0:29:25 Thomas: Jeez. I I gotta say I'm a little surprised that they did, I mean I had seen, I thought that they would maybe stay out of it, maybe wait longer, um, particularly right after the heart attack, it just seems like a, you know, maybe they have some inside info, but it's not as though it's a given that he's even going to be able to do this. You know, I mean, it's pretty serious health thing. It just seems seems odd to me. And he doesn't have any sense of any to me, to my mind, any sense of inevitability that he would possibly be the candidate. I think he has a ceiling and I think he's hit that ceiling. But I don't know, maybe this endorsement, it could make a difference cause it, you know, it is pretty, I think it's pretty substantial in terms of the far left. The only thing I wonder is like, is it going to make a difference with the people who already support him anyway?

0:30:51 Thomas: You know, is there anybody who's going to be a marginal, I guess if anything, it could draw some people from Elizabeth Warren. Like, I Think that would be the primary way this endorsement would help. Cause I don't think fans of the squad, do you, would you, would you agree that it's unlikely that they, that fans of The Squad are currently supporting supporting candidates other than Warren and, uh, Sanders, right? I mean, I can't imagine it, but maybe.

0:31:14 Jamie: Yeah. I can't imagine anybody who finds, who considers themselves a fan of AOC. Um, right. That's, um. You know, and like, just because this is the nightmare timeline and nothing makes any sense anymore. I'm sure there's like at least one. Um.

0:31:21 Thomas: Yeah. Who's like a big Biden fan.

0:31:33 Thomas: Yeah, I'm sure there's a few, but whatever.

0:31:35 Jamie: Right. But like, it's not coherent in any meaningful way. But again, you know, in the age of the internet, I'm not actually sure that endorsements make all that big of a difference anymore. You know, I'm just, I don't know. I'm, it has more to do with, you generating a new cycle, and more than that, helping to raise money. I bet you Bernie Sanders raises a stupid amount of money off of this endorsement.

0:31:53 Thomas: Yeah. I don't know. I really have no idea.

0:32:13 Thomas: That's a good point.

0:32:14 Jamie: Because now every member of the squad will be able to email their people and say, this is who we're rooting for. So all of those people in New York that AOC was able to touch to beat Crowley, who maybe were not really involved in politics before because they didn't believe politicians gave a damn about them, will say, like, you know what, I'll throw this guy three bucks. And what we've seen with Bernie Sanders and what Elizabeth Warren is coming along to is that if you get enough people to throw in three bucks, that's significant, um, and it's more than just the individual donors, which itself is huge, because as we saw, he blew it out of the water in the third quarter fundraising, they made over a million friggin phone calls, um, and at the end of the day, it's votes that are going to make the difference, and I think that's what this endorsement really speaks to, because each member of the squad, and I keep calling them the squad because I don't feel comfortable pronouncing any of their names because I am awful.

0:33:07 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:17 Thomas: Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, uh... Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Who is the one I'm forgetting? Getting. Somebody. Oh, Presley? Ayanna Presley. Yeah, there. Got him. Collected them all.

0:33:28 Jamie: Yes, yes, that's it. You know, each one of them won races that nobody thought they'd be able to win. And they did it with boots on the ground knocking on doors. You know, they did the old fashioned, not even retail politics, but like door to door talking to their constituents. And, you know, I think it's it's tempting to sort of dismiss the significance of this because certainly mainstream Democrats and my congressman in particular, who I cannot tolerate at all, Josh Gottheimer, has sort of made a target out of these Democratic women. What they've really done is return to the grassroots, return to politics as an investment in your local community.

0:34:19 Jamie: And I think that's what's actually really significant about this, because they speak to actual voters that can be mobilized. Yeah.

0:34:30 Thomas: Yeah, I'm very curious. I could see this making some amount of difference. I do tend to think that Bernie, more than a lot of candidates, has a ceiling just because he's been a known quantity from 2016. We're really familiar with him and he just hasn't grabbed that much more. But he has a very dedicated following, and a very, he's, you know, they're willing to give him money and he's raised a ton of money.

Um, I, you know, I'm I've never been less sure of what in the world is going to happen in this primary. I was more sure after a couple debates. I was like, all right, well, we see, you know, Biden's starting to, you know, he's gonna fall apart, people are gonna realize he's too old, blah blah blah. I just don't, it just doesn't seem to be moving very much, you know, there's... there's like a a couple of moves that happened. Kamala got a boost after the first debate, and then it, it, she completely undid that eventually, and so that's kind of back to where, and she might even be below a little bit where she was, but like nobody else. And And Elizabeth Warren, what's giving me hope is that she's been the only one who's had a steady upward trajectory, but she's still short, you know, they're all really still short. So if it happened right now, it would be, what, a brokered convention or whatever, like, because it's just, nobody's, I don't know, I'm just, I have no idea what's gonna happen. Who knows, Biden could still just win. Uh, God.

0:35:48 Jamie: I mean, this is still the nightmare timeline, so, um, Biden could still prevail, so so awful, um, and you know, this is kind of so just disappointing. And this, this is scary because like now I'm being recorded. So it was like one thing in 2016 to be like, yeah, actually I think Trump's going to beat Hillary Clinton, and not be taken seriously. Um, but now, you know, it's going To be recorded on record. So I'll probably be wrong. So actually, like, this is great because it would be great to be wrong about this. Um, and I would actually prefer to not be right.

0:35:57 Thomas: That would be so horrible. It'd be so just disappointing about Biden getting the nomination. I

0:36:26 Jamie: Yeah, I think if Biden gets the nomination, we're in real danger of Donald Trump being To be fair, I think we're in real danger of that anyway. I think, um, as, as Democrats, as people on the left, we tend to discount the seriousness with which that's a possibility. Um, but I think if, if, yeah, I do too. And I think it becomes even more so if someone like Joe Biden is the nominee, because, again, one of the things that makes Donald Trump so dangerous is that the man just experiences no shame whatsoever, so ever. And, you know, the sort of thing that politicians have been doing for as long as there have been politicians, the glad handing and smiling and double speak and euphemisms to be on just this side of what's legal, Donald Trump just does right out in the open. And then he puts his opposition on defense by saying, well, how is this really actually any different? And that's actually very difficult to sort of explain in a way that'll get past people's

0:36:48 Thomas: Think it's a very real possibility. You know, yeah.

0:37:39 Jamie: Bullshit detectors, right?

0:37:40 Thomas: Just takes too long. Yeah, it's harder it's, it's an uphill battle. It's so much easier to just smear your own feces everywhere like Trump does, and then nobody can make heads or tails of it.

0:37:42 Jamie: Right. Right. And you know, despite the fact that, you know, he's got a gold friggin' toilet, um, and he gets away with not paying any of his bills because, you know, I guess the only bills he really does pay is his, you know, aggressive attorneys. Um, people sort of are able to buy into that idea that he's fighting the man, and I think that's more appealing than, you know, Democrats are comfortable recognizing. So I'm, I'm worried about a Joe Biden nomination.

0:38:27 Thomas: Yeah, I'll tell you this. I'm actually not as worried, and I disagree, I think, a little bit, and I recognize that I think both of us are kind of measuring and balancing our pessimism and stuff, but it wouldn't surprise me. And, and, and you know, the, the there's so many unknowns, I'm not a hundred percent sure either way. So I, I, you know I can see a case either way, but we've talked about the trade-off of alienating the far left versus activating more centrist. And I don't know what that number is. Like I genuinely don't, it wouldn't surprise me one way or the other. If somebody said, well, if we go with Biden, yes, it'll, it's I have made the point like, cause a lot of people want to just go with button because Oh, a bunch of people in the rust belt rust Rust Belt will vote for him and that whatever.

0:39:14 Thomas: And I've made the point, well, how many, you know, liberals are going to stay home because they're really mad about the fact that this unimaginative, more centrist thousand year old white man is the candidate. You know, we thought we were moving forward. But at the same time, I don't know the numbers either way. I wouldn't, I could see it being more likely that Biden could beat Trump than the other candidates, to be honest with you. I think the polls show that somewhat. What, but also I don't care like that. We just need to win. And we, we ought to vote for the candidate. We want to be president, not try to do some advanced impossible thing that nobody can do by the way. Nobody, not even the experts can actually predict what's going to happen in the election. So we're not as, as voters, we're supposed to be pundits and you know, like, uh, five 38 employees and like, okay, well I need to vote for this candidate.

0:40:06 Thomas: 'Cause they will have a slightly, blah blah blah, we just need to vote for who we want, and who I want is not Biden. But I will say, I am, so I'm not worried in particular about once we have Biden losing to Trump more, but I am worried about Trump just winning at all, like, regardless of the candidate, because I think what we do, um, on the left, I think, what we tend to forget about from time to time, and I've clued myself in, this is just how big the structural electoral college advantage is, and in the fact that it's actually probably worse in 2020 than 2016 by a little bit, just based on demographic change. People move away from shitty states that suck and are red to cool states that are blue. Sorry, shitty states. But like, it's true. Like more people are moving into California.

0:40:51 Thomas: More people are, you know, moving into states where there's already an advantage and there's no or And also the populations are increasing in those states. So like the fundamental college advantage could be even worse. And that's a huge thing to overcome. The idea that we can win by whatever, 3% or whatever it was, and still lose, like that's hard. Like 3% is a lot to win by in a national election.

0:41:18 Thomas: And exactly, yeah, the structural advantage of the electoral college, having to overcome that gap. Happen. Who knows if it's three? I don't think there's, there's nothing in the data science that I've seen that, and you know, could be wrong. That would, that would tell me that's going to be less this time. You

0:41:17 Jamie: You're talking about popular vote versus electoral college. Right, yeah. Yes.

0:41:38 Jamie: I'm not going to say that I think you're wrong because it's not quite that. Um, it's, to me what I think is not paid attention to enough is who votes, and Republicans are pretty good at, you know, taking orders and being really good foot soldiers, and even if they don't like their candidate, coming out to vote. Democrats are less so, but what often gets left out in these sorts of debates are the, the 40% of voters who just sit these elections out because they don't identify with any party. And so when we're talking about a 3% margin, I think it's really important to be mindful that there are 40% of registered voters who don't even bother to participate.

0:42:35 Jamie: And so it's all well and good to say, like, oh, well, you know, the sort of Monday morning quarterbacking as to like, like, who does better in a primary? But I think there are really important questions about how we can turn out the 40% of voters who were disengaged in 2016. And I think this is where the Buttigieg campaign particularly has gotten their calculations wrong. Buttigiege is the sort of Frankenstein monster that was created in a lab to appeal to Democrats and those sort of mythical independents and Republicans who, if we're just reasonable enough and make enough overtures to the middle, will come around to our way of thinking. And what we really need to be doing is thinking about how we appeal and how we convince those 40% of registered voters that actually participating in the electoral process is to their benefit. Yeah,

0:43:31 Thomas: I it's hard to know one way or the other, like who that is. I mean, I'm sure there's some science on it. Um, but I, there's always going to be some amount of trade-off, you know? If there's one way we think we can really get to those voters, then maybe some people become non-voters because they're alienated, but you know like, I don't know, maybe. Um it also depends on like if we do flip one state, like if flip Florida or something, then it's all fine. It's not, you You know, it's amazing how much of it comes down to this tiny gap in Florida. It's very it's always going to be a toss up. And if we win it, then it's fine. And probably the the then we'll we'll probably win maybe more electoral college votes than than the popular. But like it, there's so much that rides. The system is stupid. It really is.

0:44:16 Thomas: It's just a dumb system. That's my point. Like, so much of this rides on how one very close state goes, and that, that kind of causes us to rewrite all this history of like what went wrong, and all this stuff, and really look at what it came down to, you know, 80,000 votes in three states, or Florida, which was not as close as those three states, but still very close. And I think Florida should be a little closer this time because of demographic shift, and also the maybe some amount of the ex-felons getting to vote. That should have been enough to swing it, but I think they've muddied that up enough with just, just totally unconscionable behavior to make it so that they won't actually get the vote, even though they should have by law. But anyway, all that is to say, I'm very worried, but you never know.

0:45:04 Jamie: No, so I agree with you. I think you get it exactly right there. It really speaks to how stupid our system is that we do it in this sort of anachronistic way of an electoral college.

0:45:18 Thomas: And there are people who believe that, like, the space between voters is an important thing. So, Jamie, if you and I are roommates and we vote, that's one thing. But if we live like 100 feet away, and there's just empty space there, even 100 miles away, way, then we become more powerful because the map looks more red when there's space between, like, come on. The idea that there, and there are so many people who really believe that. It's just, I mean, I know a lot of it's motivated reasoning, like your side benefits your side, so you got to find a way to like deal with it. But that's a particularly stupid thing that a lot of people in this country believe, that the land in between voters somehow counts for more, gives you more voting power. Yeah.

0:46:01 Jamie: Well, I mean, I guess you got to come up with something when, you know, in the last 20 years, you haven't won like, you've won like one of the three popular votes for president that you were handed. So you've got to come come up with something. You don't actually have the votes. You don't actually have the majority opinion. You have land maps. And so, you know, those maps look really intimidating, right? They sort of feed into this idea that this is the moral majority or something instead of this, you know, lunatic fringe leftover of white supremacy that they really are.

0:46:04 Thomas: Yeah. That lives in places that people don't want to live, so therefore you have more power. Oh geez, any other, uh, any other debate thoughts, I guess, before we call to a close? Oh.

0:46:56 Jamie: Yeah, I mean, I do want to pick on Kamala Harris a little bit. I found one of her comments particularly cringeworthy when she talked about women's responsibility for continuing the human race and that our bodies were designed to make babies. And this just made me cringe.

0:47:19 Thomas: Shit, I must have missed this. She said that? Good.

0:47:23 Jamie: Yeah. So she did it in the context of talking about abortion rights, which, you know, for any of our listeners who have found us on Twitter, you've realized I'm quite a big fan of abortion rights.

0:47:37 Jamie: But, you know, the way that she did this was just, to me, gross, really, for lack of a better word. And it fed into this idea that, you know, women's sole purpose for existing is to make like, babies and is to be moms, which, like, is great if that's the sort of thing that fills your soul. It's, you know, I have two children. I love them dearly. I would totally stand in front of a moving train for both of them. But I hate parenting so much that some days I want to stand in front of moving train.

0:48:16 Jamie: And, you know, and when we talk about women, it's just, you know, being made to make babies or created to reproduce or particularly to be responsible for this, I think what we really lose sight of is that women are capable of a whole lot more than making babies. You know, they're capable of writing books, of starting businesses, of going on adventures, of being wonderful friends and companions and all sorts of other things. And so I really appreciate the pivot to bring this back to reproductive rights, because this is obviously something really important that we need to talk about. But we need it to do it in a way that honors women's humanity as people and not broodmares.

0:49:03 Jamie: Oh, and also Tulsi Gabbard can fuck right off with abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.

0:49:04 Thomas: Point. What is her deal? What is her deal? I don't, well, okay, let, let me, please, allow me, and feel free to yell at me if you want, want, Safe, legal, and rare. I think it should be as rare as anyone wants it to be. But like, is it, I guess it depends on how you mean that. Like, do you mean that everybody should have free and easy access to birth control? So therefore there should rarely even be a reason that you would need to get an abortion? Or is that like a sort of a, you know, cause in that case, that seems fine to me. Like really everybody should have all the birth control they want for for free at any time and education about how to use it and so therefore, you know, it should be kind of rare, but like, is that, I take it that's not how you think she means it.

0:49:54 Jamie: Yeah. I mean, have you ever heard of, you know, somebody talking about any other medical procedure as though it should be rare? You know, organ transplants should be fair, right? Nobody should have to deal with like, you don't liver failure, for example, or kidney failure. But we never talk about kidney transplants needing to be rare in order for them to, you cross some sort of moral benchmark. And I feel like when you say abortion should be rare, you're baking in to the debate the very idea that there's something about it that is morally problematic, such that we want to minimize it to the extent that is possible. And I agree with you, right? To the extent women don't have to make that this choice, that's better. But I think it's better not because there's anything anything particularly bad about the choice to have an abortion, but because of the way women are shamed for having to make that choice, because of the way it's treated as somehow indicating a unique moral failure.

0:50:03 Thomas: Well, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Well,

0:51:00 Jamie: I have never heard dialysis referred to as the sort of thing that should be rare, right? That's just not the kind of thing that Gets said. I've never heard of heart surgery needing to be the sort of thing that's rare, and yet, you know, obesity and poor diets are, you know, just as much the sort of things that we have control over and that people can interpret to be, you know, morally relevant in certain ways. And I really object to the way that health care decisions, when they're related to women's reproductive health, are subject to this extra level of moral scrutiny because I think it feeds it, it sort of concedes the moral ground that those who are opposed to women having reproductive freedom are getting something right about the moral facts, and they're fucking not. Idea

0:51:10 Thomas: Agreed.

0:51:55 Thomas: There, yeah, and I, I think that, uh, it's more likely in my mind that, that because what is her deal, like, is she just a Republican who, who is currently pretending to be a Democrat? And so she's kind of like signaling in a way. Because that's a way that I think. What is it? Bill Clinton. Yeah. I don't know. I just want to know. Like I don't know for sure either way. I would love to know like I really wish someone would just like she just like all right guys. I'm done with my shtick. Here's what it was all about and tell us because I don't get it. And this thing where she was going to like boycott the debate because the DNC. What do you think the DNC is doing? Like, what? Are we still on this? In what way was anything unfair? She has no chance regardless. Like, is the DNC responsible for that?

0:52:12 Jamie: What she is this is right Listen, I've got my own criticisms to make about the DNC, and we can save that for another time, but this idea that Tulsi Gabbard, right?

0:52:49 Thomas: Well, I do circa 2016. But, like, what, I mean, they've made a lot of changes that I like. And, like this election cycle, feel free to chime in. But, like, what is it that is even alleged that they're doing that is, you know, if anything, anything, they're keeping more people in this fucking process longer than they should.

0:53:09 Jamie: No, no, I agree. I think there's a far more plausible argument to be made that the pendulum has found, has, has swung far too far to the other side, um, and I think, you know, her argument or her suggestion that the DNC is rigging the debates against her is just bonkers. I, you know, and again, this is anecdotal evidence, this does not really betray anything meaningful. I have never met a single person in my entire life who's, you know, first choice, or third, or fourth, or eighth choice her president was Tulsi Gabbard, um, Well, so, okay, I have not, you're a little bit closer to Hawaii, so maybe that's why Gary

0:53:18 Thomas: Yeah, I have. So, yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Well, and I'll tell you, I think it'd be useful to tell you the kind of person it is. Uh, it's, it's a friend of mine who's a gun nut. He's, uh, I, I really like him, that he's a cool guy. He's, um, probably just more libertarian, but he's, he's libertarian slash more left, like left on the social issues, so he doesn't come at libertarianism from like the shitty, I want, you know, I want a bunch of rich, so like he actually, his two favorite candidates, uh, were actually Bernie Sanders and somebody else in 2016, I can't remember, um, so he's like, he likes Bernie Sanders a lot. I might have been, could have been, I don't know, but it's weird, I don't totally get it, but I think it's, I think, says something about Tulsi Gabbard, there's something in there that, maybe to somebody, maybe it's the military back, I don't know what it is. Maybe there's certain conservative issues that she hits on that libertarians might like. I'm not sure.

0:54:25 Jamie: Johnson, she I cannot, she is so bonkers

0:54:47 Thomas: I just can't figure it out. Yeah. But, uh, yeah.

0:54:49 Jamie: To me she is so bonker, she is like three different political ideologies stacked on top of each other in a, a trench coat. Um, she makes no sense to me. I can't, um, I can not figure her out.

0:55:04 Thomas: What I hate most of all is that I love her look and her confidence, and I want her to be saying better things. Like if she had, like, she has this confidence, she is, she, she looks great. She's awesome on stage. And then what she says is like, like what, what, what, huh, what are you, I wish, uh, I just wish I agreed with her more, I guess, is what I'm saying, because I, I love her, uh, her whole demeanor, and I, I do think she, she projects a real, and like that probably comes from military background, you know, the confidence and in herself and and what she's done at a very young age, um, but like, yeah, I don't know what her opinions are. I wanted to chime in when we were talking about, um, women's rights because that was, uh, and reproductive rights was centered around the Supreme Court question. And I just have to point out, you know, from Opening Arguments and all this, how many unconstitutional things people keep suggesting.

0:55:54 Thomas: And I got to say, sorry, Bernie in particular keeps making like different unconstitional proposals that just won't work. We can't do term limits. It's unconstitutional. You'd have to pass an amendment. You'd the rotating doesn't work, you'd have to pass a constitutional amendment. Those just aren't going to work. Sorry, they're not going to work. And I'll even, actually, I will say this, not to think I'm picking on Bernie. Even Warren was like, I don't know if she just wasn't ready for the question, but like they turned to her and she's like, oh, well, we'll look at some of those ideas. And I wanted her to be like, well no, I'm a constitutional like scholar. I should know. But I don't know if maybe she didn't want to alienate people who supported those ideas or something, but no, they're nonsense. And what sucks though about this question, I have to point out too, that Biden said a, just a nonsense thing. Did you catch what he was trying to say?

0:56:40 Thomas: He said, and furthermore, I would do if it's in the last year of Trump's term, I'll do what Mitch McConnell did to us with the, you know, and he like messed up a few of his words. And I went back and listened to it two or three times because I was like, what is he saying? Is he claiming that right Now? But Joe Biden, who doesn't hold office, will make sure that if, you know, some justice retires or dies or something between now and the election, he will ensure that the Senate, which is controlled by Republicans, won't nominate, like, won't approve somebody. What the fuck, what are you talking about? Oh,

0:56:58 Jamie: You know, so this, this touches on something that, you know, we didn't get into, and it doesn't look like we have the time to, but, you know, this is part of why I can't take seriously any of the criticisms about Bernie having had a heart attack and him needing to back out, because, like, clearly What, we, what we need to be talking about is like Joe Biden has clearly not recovered from his two brain aneurysms, um, because he has no fucking idea, and I'm sorry you cursed for us, so this is, this is not a kid-friendly podcast, but he he has no idea what he's talking about most of the time, and beyond that, I am so over these appeals to this just like outdated toxic masculinity as a form of strength. Earlier in the debate he said something similar as well, he's like, well, if I'm the nominee up against Trump, I will beat him like a drum, and

0:57:37 Thomas: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh, we've been cursing all time, yeah, it's fine, yeah. Yeah, good,

0:58:14 Jamie: I'm like, this is so stupid, um, and this doesn't actually tell me anything meaningful except that, like, you think this ultimately is a contest between two gorillas banging their chest. And, like, you know, as, as someone who, like, is really frustrated that, you know, we've been at war for the last 20 years, like, I'm just, I'm not into it, this is not an effective way of solving problems, if it were, we wouldn't still be at war 20 years later, and I'm just over it, right?

0:58:44 Thomas: Point, and thank you for allowing me the opportunity to say, when I'm talking about Bernie's, uh, health issues, I absolutely believe that he is far more healthy and able, especially mentally, to be president than, than Biden. That, was I, when I was talking, talking about that, I'm concerned, as somebody who completely writes off Biden and doesn't have any interest in him, but I wanted an important clarification, you're right, I didn't at all mean to suggest that, that, uh, that Biden was in, in more, uh, presence of mind or had any, any better, like, health advantage over Bernie, even, even after the heart attack, because yeah, he just doesn't know what he's talking about, he's not sharp, he's, there's a fact check that I told you about before the show, where, like, the New York Times was, you know, they were saying, like, they evaluated his claim about the withdrawal of American troops from Syria.

0:59:32 Thomas: And the quote is, I actually can read it here, because he says, I would not have withdrawn the troops and would not have withdrawn any additional thousand troops in Iraq, which are in retreat, now being fired on by Assad's people. And New York Times says, this is false. It's possible that Mr. Biden misspoke. He also referred to Iraq when he seemed to mean Syria. But there does not appear to be any evidence that American troops have been fired on by forces deployed by President Bashar al-Assad of Syria. And that like, that captures it. Well, we think this is false, but also who knows if his brain just short-circuited and he was trying to say a true thing, but just doesn't, isn't able to say the right thing. Like that's a pretty constant problem. And, you know, like that's important as president. I, I shouldn't, couldn't be president because I can't keep half this crap straight, you know?

1:00:20 Thomas: And like we need the president to be the kind of person who, you know, sure, you might make a verbal miscue now and then. That's of course. But like he consistently is just confusing things, confusing people, confusing countries far too much to be up for this job.

1:00:37 Jamie: Yeah. I'm like, listen, I, you know, I think of myself, myself as, you know, like a sort of reasonably intelligent person who really struggles with geography, languages, man, I can do but like geography, like it's just never gonna happen.

1:00:48 Thomas: Same. Oh, thank God. I'm glad you said it. I'm terrible at geography.

1:00:54 Jamie: I have like a vague idea of like which countries are in which regions, but like, not good at it, and so like and listen, we're to be quite upfront, like, I'm no fan of Joe Biden, I think we've covered that. And so this is the sort of thing that, like, I would be inclined to overlook if it were limited to just, you know, geographical difficulty, Like, I can identify with that, right? But this is a man who for his, the entirety of his political career, has like never been on the right side of anything until it's already been decided. Like he just, there's no other thing I can point to where he really shows any sort of of astuteness or clear thinking or insight, he's just managed to get by on this, you know, very similar to John McCain, he's got this sort of personal brand of authenticity or, you know, genuineness, but there's like nobody really there behind the curtain. Yeah.

1:01:02 Thomas: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

1:02:03 Thomas: Yeah. John McCain's Maverick shtick was the dumbest thing. It was not at all true. It was like temporarily true when he was pissed off about losing a nomination, he would get, he would go Mavericks for a month to punish George W. Bush. That was about it. But anyway, yeah, we are out of time. I've got to get to the, to the editing of the episode we've just done. And I want to make sure we can get this out in a timely fashion, but thanks Jamie Amy, for, uh, I, I don't know. I look, I'm almost to the point where unless there's a substantive format change, I Don't even know how useful a debate episode is next time. Like, I'll be honest and let, you know, we'll, we'l see, you now, like if something major happens, if there's a real discussion or if we whittle it down to six people, Oh, I am willing to entertain that. Like then I will watch it. There's probably going to be more meaningful dialogue, uh and back and forth that we can analyze.

1:02:52 Thomas: But this was just so surface level to me that I personally didn't find it that useful to watch. So we'll see the next one. Next one is not a guarantee. That's all I'm saying.

1:03:03 Jamie: I, I totally agree, if we're going to have another 400 person debate that stays at this, you know, superficial level of discourse, I think we need to come up with something better to talk about, because this is just stupid.

1:03:16 Thomas: Yeah, we'll find it. We'll, we're finding a new topic. All right. Well, thanks for listening. Hope you enjoyed this and I just sincerely hope the next debate is better.

1:03:25 Jamie: Yeah. And please subscribe so we can have a party next.

1:03:28 Thomas: Oh, good idea. And go to patreon.com/seriouspod to support the show. I think we've covered it. All Right. We'll see you next time, folks.